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- [00:01]
Brian Kenny
Strategic growth isn't just about where you're going, it's about where you build. Global business leaders are choosing Ohio for its pro Business Climate, rapid innovation and tailored incentive packages. With Jobs Ohio, you'll find a partner that moves on your timeline, helping you scale with confidence. Make your smartest move yet. Get started@jobsohio.com before we begin, we have a couple of questions. What do you love about HBR onstrategy? What do you want less of? What would make HBR on strategy even better? Tell us. Head over to hbr.org podcastsurvey to share your thoughts. We want to make the show even better, but we need your help to do that. So head to hbr.org podcastsurvey thank you. Welcome to HBR on Strategy. Case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts hand selected to help you unlock new ways of doing business. Ferrari is synonymous with tradition, luxury and speed, not necessarily sustainability. But under CEO Benedetto Vigna, the company is aiming to go carbon neutral by 2030. To him, this is both a moral obligation and an opportunity to innovate. In this episode of cold call from 2023, Harvard Business School professor Rafaela Sedun joins Vinya and host Brian Kenny. They discuss her case study on how Ferrari is using sustainability as a strategic adv.
- [01:44]
Rafaela Sedun
We're going to start today, Rafaela, with the question I always start the podcast with. Can you tell us what the central issue is in the case and what your cold call is to start the discussion?
- [01:52]
Benedetto Vigna
So the central issue of the case, as you described, is a company, an iconic company that is now embarking on a new carbon neutrality strategy. It's a dramatic shift if you want, in what the company plans to do over the next few years in terms of both its product range, introduction of the first electric Ferrari, as well as, and probably the part that intrigued me the most, the internal changes that Benedetto and the rest of the Ferrari team is planning to become carbon neutral by 2030.
- [02:24]
Rafaela Sedun
Yeah, yeah, I think I know a little bit of the answer to the next question, but I'm wondering how you heard about this and why you decided to write the case.
- [02:30]
Benedetto Vigna
How did I hear about it? Well, because I was lucky and one day I saw Benedetto's face on a zoom call and as an Italian, I just couldn't resist. And ask him, you know, Benedetto, I think we should really write a case about Ferrari. And what surprised me is that Benedetto said, yes, but I really wanted to talk about sustainability, which is Something that surprised me.
- [02:52]
Rafaela Sedun
Yeah, we're going to get to Benedetto in a minute, but before we do that, I know you visited the plant in the process of writing the case. I'd love to hear a little bit about what that experience was like, and then you can maybe comment on where Ferrari sits in the landscape, who are their competitors?
- [03:05]
Benedetto Vigna
So the visit to the plant. And in the audience today, we also have Leila Dumi, who is a PhD student and was with me when we visited the plant. I just can't tell you how exciting this was. I almost risked divorce, by the way, because my husband, who is a mechanical engineer, couldn't make it. And he was very, very jealous about me being there. But it's like, you know, you don't expect a company that makes car to have that amount of passion, excitement through engagement. And it's one. You know, on the one hand, you see, they tell you this is where Enzo Ferrari was watching the cars, and you immediately realize, I'm in the middle of history here. Okay, so that's one. But then it's something very tangible, and it's today, and you see how people work together. You walk into the production floor with these cars coming from the conveyor belt, from the top coming down, and teams of workers that work seamlessly. I tell when I teach this case, I tell my students. I know it feels weird to say it, but I have rarely seen a place as harmonious as the production plant of Ferrari.
- [04:07]
Rafaela Sedun
That's amazing. But, Benedetto, let me turn to you for a moment. Again, welcome. We wish you could be here in person, but it's great to have you on the wall. Can you tell us a little bit about your background? I teased a little bit by talking about the fact that you're a physicist. I don't know how many people expected that, but tell us a little bit about your background.
- [04:21]
Leila Dumi
Thank you. Nice talking to you. Despite that it is digital, I am a physicist, so I prefer the 3D analog world, not the digital world. Anyway, you said it. I mean, I studied physics. At the beginning, my idea was to be in a university, but then I realized it was better for me to do some research in companies and create products that could reach the market. So I switched to a company making chips in your mobile phone. There are a lot of sensors of any kind. Well, that is what I did with my team. It took me around 20 years to create a business and industry that was not existing. And then, after traveling here and there, meeting several people, I get to know the chairman of Ferrari and the vice chairman, they offered me this opportunity, and here I am. I am the CEO of Ferrari, and I'm working with different people, but in any case, people like I did always in my career.
- [05:10]
Rafaela Sedun
That's wonderful. Rafael, I'm going to ask you a question that might make Benedetto a little uncomfortable, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Can you describe for us what his leadership style is? How would the people who work at Ferrari describe him?
- [05:21]
Benedetto Vigna
I never asked for a formal description, but I can tell you what I saw. And what I saw is a couple of things that impressed me. The first one is respect, of course, as you would expect. But I also was very impressed by the fact that people felt empowered. And so it's really this combination of, on the one hand, knowing that you are dealing with a scientist who is very focused on understanding the concreteness of the production process, in this case of the sustainability strategy and going to the metrics in a way that perhaps people that don't have that scientific background would not be able to, but then at the same time, a very strong sense of being also feeling respected by the CEO. And I think that, you know, in the case we described, Benedicto spends time with both his management team, but it's also very visible, more visible than, I would say, the average CEO to the people who are on the shop floor. And he has engaged them in competitions to elicit their ideas, which I think really made a lasting impression on the team.
- [06:23]
Rafaela Sedun
Benedetto, let me turn back to you.
- [06:25]
Leila Dumi
Thank you.
- [06:26]
Rafaela Sedun
Yeah, let me turn back to you for a second. Just curious, because I looked up, you know, in the research for the podcast, I looked at Ferraris to see what kind of Ferrari I would buy. Needless to say, I can't buy any Ferraris. Who buys a Ferrari? What's your customer?
- [06:39]
Leila Dumi
Not yet.
- [06:40]
Rafaela Sedun
Not yet.
- [06:41]
Leila Dumi
Not yet.
- [06:41]
Benedetto Vigna
I mean, the Lego Ferrari is available to both of us.
- [06:44]
Rafaela Sedun
That's true. That's true. Who buys your cars?
- [06:46]
Leila Dumi
There is one sentence we like to say. The different Ferrari for different moments and different Ferrari for different Ferraris. This is what is driving our strategy. If you want what we are doing, we are starting always from the emotion that our clients want to have when they drive the cars. People very often talk about technology. People talk about the trend today in automotive, autonomous, shared, connected electric cars. What instead, we like to say is that we are a luxury company that makes cars. And there are four clear trends that are, for us, very important. One, we want our car to be really highly personalized. We want our car to deliver Unique emotional experience. We want our car to be sustainable and we want our car to be culturally relevant. This is Ferrari. Ferrari is a luxury company, is not an automotive company. So if there is a message I would like to leave here is that we are not making car, we are making luxury product and car are part of what we do.
- [07:49]
Rafaela Sedun
That actually gets to another question that I had in mind for you, which is tell us how sustainability is on brand for Ferrari.
- [07:56]
Leila Dumi
So I believe that a luxury company that is doing, let me say, emotional product, symbolic product, we don't make functional products because nobody's going to take a Ferrari to the supermarket. It's important the social license and the social license can come from us showing to the entire world. We can be scientific, we can have a holistic approach to the sustainability, and we want to be sustainable by end of this decade. So this is very important. It's a commitment, it's a way to tell the entire world, look, it's difficult, we know, but we want to show the world that we can do it.
- [08:31]
Rafaela Sedun
Let's talk about sustainability. Rafael, we've done other cases on cold call about other automotive makers that have put a stake in the ground around sustainability. Can you talk a little bit about what's driving this in the automotive industry?
- [08:43]
Benedetto Vigna
Yeah, I mean, especially in Europe, we have a very strong regulatory push that, as you know, we have very strict targets that are felt and are having a very big impact on how large and small. And we can see also with Ferrari, niche automotives are thinking about their futures, their future. And I think that these are very strict targets that, however, are not exact. You know, the uncertainty here is are they feasible and do they match with the production capabilities that current companies have? So you can see there is a tremendous amount of anxiety now and pushback that is coming from this push.
- [09:19]
Rafaela Sedun
Benedetto, can you talk a little bit about these targets? And I'm curious also about Ferrari's carbon neutral commitment and how people react to that. How did your investors react? How did your customers react? How did your suppliers react when you made that statement?
- [09:32]
Leila Dumi
I would say that we have a different reaction for different players in average. I have to say that the investor please our commitment very much. They like it. People here in Maranello, the employee, they like this challenge. And that's the reason why Rafaela, when she interviewed them, she saw that they were all on it. There are suppliers that are more, let's say, are already on the journey. One are the suppliers that believe that it's not a true problem, a real issue. And Some others instead, that they are willing to get some support from us. Clearly, you can guess what is our point of view in front of suppliers that do not believe that this is something to work on. So different mixed feeling. We are making a selection and we want to work with suppliers that are working in a scientific and holistic way, like we are doing on this important topic that is sustainability.
- [10:25]
Rafaela Sedun
How much change does that require from your suppliers? Do they have to do things quite differently than they've done it in the past?
- [10:31]
Leila Dumi
But very often I can tell you that some suppliers are scared simply because they do not know the metric. It's funny because sometimes you meet some suppliers that are proud of their sustainability report. But then apart from the fact that they spend a lot of money to print a lot of things on expensive paper, there are not too many numbers in it. But very often, I have to say, more than 80% of our supplier are willing to join us in this journey and to see how we can challenge each other. So, as always, you have the people that are willing to embrace the new challenge, and there are people who not embrace it. I can tell you, based on my experience, that the people that are embracing this challenge on our supply chain are more than what I expected. As you can imagine, it's not easy, but they are on it.
- [11:16]
Rafaela Sedun
Rafaela the case points out that the primary goal at Ferrari is not about market share. It's not about volume. We know they only make about, what, 11, 12,000 cars a year. So if it's not about market share and it's not about volume, what's it about?
- [11:30]
Benedetto Vigna
Ferrari is about an experience. I think that's what I came to understand. And Benedetto articulated this point very much earlier very well. It is about feeling part of a community. For the Ferraris, I think there is very much about the car as much as the events and the racing, and we talk about these other events. And then there is also the symbolic meaning that Ferrari has for older people like us. You know, we don't have a Ferrari, but somehow, perhaps I'm Italian, but I'm sure that this is true also for other nationalities. There is a sense of affinity with a brand that is so historic right now. This is what's visible to us. Where Benedetto was going before, which to me was the most intriguing part of the case, is what Ferrari means for the supply chain and for the employees as well. And there we get to something that is even more personal than what you and I can experience from the outside. And I don't know if this is at least what is palpable when you are there.
- [12:29]
Leila Dumi
Yeah, Rafael, yeah, you're right. I mean, it was Christmas 2021, and unfortunately we could not have an event where all of us are together physically. So the communication department had a great idea. And the idea was that all the people of Ferrari, all the employees, would build in a puzzle, a prancing horse. We have it. So next time you come here, I'll show you. Is a big prancing horse that is standing in front of our canteen. And all the employee, while they were completing the pricing cost puzzle, they were saying something, okay, what does it mean Ferrari for you? And Ferrari means many different things, but there are some common answers. That is, Ferrari is my life, Ferrari is my family. Ferrari is community. And this is something like Rafaela was saying that you experience when you are part of the family. And we are different family members with many stakeholders, from the Federalist, the client to the Tifosi, the fan, any kind of, you know, the shareholder, the media, so the university and the students. It's a unique company where you have many different kind of stakeholders. It's a community feeling. Yeah.
- [13:45]
Rafaela Sedun
How do you find your employees and what's it like to work at Ferrari?
- [13:48]
Leila Dumi
I can tell you that there is a unique sense of belonging in the company that is not easy to describe. You can understand when you leave it, but I can see from the eyes of the colleagues, you know, these last years have not been easy because of the. On the supply side, for example, we had the Ukraine wars, we had the shortage of chips, we had the problem of the COVID But I can tell you that we did not stop our production line for a single second, while many other industrial players were suffering of it. And consider that, you know, sometimes being a small player, because we don't buy a lot of things, we could have been suffering more. But because of this sense of belonging, because of this unique attachment to the company, we've been able to go through without any disruption. This is something that I am always thankful to all of them. And indeed, 13 of November, we published some initiatives that are pretty unique. For example, I want to give chaise to all the employees, from first to last. No, we started the SHAVES program open to all the employee. We also give many other benefits to say thanks to all of them for what they are doing, for where they are helping to bring the company. So this is very important.
- [15:03]
Benedetto Vigna
Can I pause on this for one moment? Because I think, you know now, not to be the boring strategy professor, but I am a boring strategy Professor. So I can do that.
- [15:10]
Rafaela Sedun
Not boring at all.
- [15:12]
Benedetto Vigna
What is interesting here is the following. We are talking about a differentiated strategy. You cannot get more differentiated than Ferrari. But what this case tells you is that as much as it's important to create surplus for the customer, I think that the roots of a very successful differentiated strategy stand in how you behave with your employees and with your suppliers. And this is something that often it's not very clear when people look at brands, what's the engine that makes this brand valuable over time and continuously?
- [15:42]
Leila Dumi
When a company is doing well, all the stakeholders must do well, and vice versa. One thing that I changed when I came in the company is that we can do innovation if we have our suppliers that are in love with what we do, because we need also their ideas, their brain cell, let me say, to help us to do something unique. And I think this dimension of working together in a team, I'm always paying particular attention to this dimension. I was paying attention already in the company, was working before, but here I am even paying much more attention because in a luxury company, the people are even more important than in other kind of company. So this is really unique. And in this way, you have to read all what we are doing. Like Rafael was saying.
- [16:30]
Brian Kenny
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- [17:45]
Rafaela Sedun
I'm wondering, you know, obviously we've talked about the fact that you oversee a brand that's got tremendous legacy and heritage. How do you think about innovating with a brand like that? Because there's always the danger, right, that you're going to leave something behind that people think is really important.
- [17:59]
Leila Dumi
Clearly, being a Luxury company, the traditional innovation are two dimensions that are equally important. I like to say that we have two eyes. With one eye, we have to look at the past. With another eye, we have to look at the futures. And then we need the brain that helps to integrate them and to select what to keep and what instead to bring. New, if you want, is one of the most beautiful things on my job, together with the team that you have always to balance the past and the new. Maybe startup companies today, they don't tell any past. So you have to look with two eyes only to the future. But in our case, the future and the past, innovation and tradition coexist so that the DNA of the company can evolve through the history.
- [18:43]
Rafaela Sedun
Rafaela we know that millennials care a lot about the products they buy and the firms that they engage with. They care a lot about where they work and what those firms are doing to make the world a better place. Do you see this as a brand enhancer for Ferrari? The move to carbon neutral?
- [18:57]
Benedetto Vigna
You know, that is really the piece that again, I learned a lot writing this case. And there is something about using sustainability to push yourself ahead of where the customer is going. So there is a customer evolution. Maybe it's not the traditional Ferrari based today that cares about sustainability, but it's clear that there are changes in the customer base, more women, younger population that will appreciate that. But again, I go back, the real powerful message here is how sustainability can be a catalyst for for energy and innovation inside organizations, which is something that I am starting to see now. I think that this case gives you an example. Of course, Ferrari is an outlier in so many dimensions, but what they're doing is using sustainability to move the supply chain in a certain direction, co innovating and sitting down with them, but also to engage their workers in a way that combines innovation and purpose. And that is, I think, a very interesting way of thinking about sustainability.
- [20:02]
Rafaela Sedun
Benedetto, can you talk a little bit about that, maybe give an example of how you're working both with the suppliers and internally to innovate.
- [20:08]
Leila Dumi
There are three names now, Scope one, Scope two and Scope three that the experts are using. So if I see Scope one and Scope two, it means what we are doing in the company. Well, if I see inside the wall of Maranello, we are doing two main things. Number one, we see how to become more efficient. And number two, we see how to use electricity or energy that is cleaner. I can give you a few numbers. The 22 or 21 we've been able to reduce internally the carbon footprint by 10%, despite the fact that we've been growing the number of car by almost 15%. It was 22 over 21. So this is a big achievement for me in terms of energy generation. We have been installing a lot of solar panel. We have been promoter of a community that can help to generate more and more clean energy for us, but also for the local municipality, we are starting to use a solid oxide fuel cell, so we can use even hydrogen. You see, we are looking at different dimensions on the generation side. And there are a few ideas that I'm particularly proud of of my team, because the people working in the factory, in the manufacturing line, the one that Rafael was referring to, with zero capital expenditures, only by using their brains, their observation, they've been able to reduce the aluminum consumption 23, 22 by around 4%. So this year we will buy 4% less aluminum than the year before. This is a big achievement. So this is what we are doing in the company, outside the company. We are looking at the logistics. So we are giving priority to companies that are using biofuel to move our cars. We are looking also at the material that is very important for us. It is aluminum. Aluminum is more or less 40% of the weight of our Ferrari. And for aluminum, we are looking at the companies that are extracting and purifying aluminum. So we go through all the steps because we want to be, as I said, scientific and follow a holistic approach. You have to cut the problem in slices and you have to go one by one.
- [22:20]
Rafaela Sedun
Rafaela, we know that it's not easy in any industry, but definitely not in the automotive industry, to scale electric vehicle production. Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges that we see automotive companies making?
- [22:32]
Benedetto Vigna
Yeah, I'll tell you the high level because then the scientists should come in and tell us everything about. But, you know, I would just want to mention the first one and I think the relevant one, which is the construction of the battery. And so that besides the tensions that we are currently facing to get the raw material that is needed to produce these batteries, there is also a whole set of challenges that have to do with the technology to produce the batteries themselves, which at this point are more art than science. That's how I've heard one of these big battery producer companies refer to them, which makes what Ferrari is doing even more interesting. Because Benedetto, if I'm not mistaken, you guys are bringing part of that battery construction in house. Correct?
- [23:17]
Leila Dumi
You're right. We buy the cell and we make the battery now, because the battery is an interior part of the cars, this is fundamental because it's the same story the airline industry did 100 years ago. In 100 years ago in airline industry, you had wings and you had the gasoline tank, and then the wings became the gasoline tank. So that's what we are doing here. The battery itself is becoming an integral part of the car. It's a structural part. This is very, very important. We have something that is nice to drive with the right emotional thrill.
- [23:49]
Rafaela Sedun
We are getting close to the end of our time together. And I've got one more question for each of you. But before I ask those questions, I do want to give the folks that are watching this have an opportunity to ask some questions. So what I'll do is I'll look up at the wall and I'm just going to pick view to ask the question that you had sent in a little bit earlier. Gina, unmute and ask your question.
- [24:09]
Gina
Yes.
- [24:09]
Benedetto Vigna
Hi. Hi.
- [24:10]
Gina
This has been really fascinating. My question is, is Ferrari in engaging with the new materials and things it needs from its suppliers, are you collaborating with other manufacturers, whether they're automobile manufacturers or manufacturing other products? Do you find bringing in other brains even more helpful when dealing with your decarbonization?
- [24:32]
Leila Dumi
Not directly, indirectly. Because we participate to some common meetings today, the most effective way to lower the carbon footprint is mostly through working through tier 2, 3 or 3, 3 or 4 of the supply chain recycled aluminum tree of life that we know, the meeting room here in Ferrari, because it remembers that you have to go to the basic. This remembers that you have to talk even with the companies that are digging the ground to get the material for the aluminum. If I have to say what the client, the player that are helping us in this journey, I wouldn't put our competitor or other automotive player at the same level. I was thinking to your question, they are maybe the last.
- [25:18]
Rafaela Sedun
We have a question from Angie E. Angie, hi.
- [25:22]
Leila Dumi
I was wondering what is your favorite Ferrari? Not only one, I would say the next one. Today there are a couple that I like a lot is a 296 GTS and the Purosangue. But the next one is going to be better.
- [25:37]
Rafaela Sedun
We have a question from Ankit.
- [25:39]
Ankit
Yes. Hi. I'm wondering if there are other luxury brands that have made the switch to sustainability that you can learn from or you admire. And how do you think the rest of the luxury automotive brands will follow? Will they follow in the footsteps making Ferrari a leader? How do you see that will play out?
- [25:57]
Leila Dumi
There are some other luxury brands that they are looking at it. And I would say that in average these people, I see them more active than the automotive player for a simple reason. Because usually luxury brands are not so big either in terms of revenues, either in terms of production material, either in terms of people like automotive player. I mean, consider that an automotive player, forget about Ferrari, that we are 6,000 people. But if you take other big names, you are talking about companies with 100, 200,000 people, while luxury brands are not so big. It's much better to steer a small boat than a big boat, especially in a period in which there are rough waves around you. We have this unique advantage like other luxury brands that we want to leverage also because we feel the moral obligation in front of the world to show that this carbon sustainability journey is something that does not exist on chart, on display on Internet, but it's something that can be made possible.
- [26:59]
Rafaela Sedun
So I think we've got time for one more question. I'm going to go to the Boston Celtics fan that we have on the wall, Francesco M. Good morning, everyone.
- [27:06]
Francesco M.
Buongiorno, Dr. Vigne. Question and curiosity. Since we talk about differentiated strategies and how is being perceived philosophically, the idea to move towards electrification and also the idea to go towards suv that is like the prosecutor is a gorgeous model. Definitely a major transition point for you, moving from like sport car to an SUV concept. So I'm curious a little bit about how it's been perceived internally within the company, this transition towards something that's a little bit different, maybe more a necessity. But I'm curious about your perspective. Thank you.
- [27:38]
Leila Dumi
There are a couple of important messages that I would like to leave this meeting room before we all depart. Number one is that we are following a scientific, holistic approach to carbon neutrality. The second one, we don't make suv, we make a purosangue. This is important. That is a sporty car. It's a sporty car and if you try it, it's really a sporty car. Because an SUV is a sport utility vehicle and Ferrari is not a utility vehicle. We make a purosangue, yes, but we don't make a purosangue because for the same reason the mass market players look at it, because other people, why they do suv. They do SUV because the market is growing. Well, we are doing a puro sangwe simply because we want the people to have and to live in motion together with other friends, other family members. This is the driver. The drive is always the emotional side of our Ferrarist of our client. This is very important and I Have to say that looking at all the portfolio that we have, it goes well beyond 26. And looking at the market reception, we couldn't do a better choice in this direction. When it comes this step to the second part, the electric car, as I said also another interview and as I say also to the investors, three possibilities. There are people that will buy only ice car. There will be people that will be part of our family only through electric Ferrari. And then we will have a client that will take both. In line with your original question on what is the product strategy? Different client, different Ferrari for different Ferrari state, different Ferrari for different moments. So all in all, I would say that we took a risk one year ago before the capital market day, when we said that we will keep doing the three kind of cars. The red ice car, the blue, the hybrid, and the green electric. Because I don't believe that doing only one car is the right thing. It would be an act of arrogance in front of our client. We have to respect the client. So we keep doing it was a good choice. And if you see now, the world is also moving in the direction to welcome both the electrons, let me say electric cars and the E fuel, also internal cars.
- [30:00]
Rafaela Sedun
So we have time for one more question for each of you. And Benedetto, I'm going to start with you. One of the final lines in the case is you pondering, because we always have our protagonists pondering a question. So the case actually closes with you pondering about whether or not it was worth it in relation to moving into this EV space in such a determined way. So I would ask you, is it worth it?
- [30:22]
Leila Dumi
Yes, it was. And it is. It's really worth it. And there is one quote that I like a lot from Enzo Ferrari. And he says, to those who come after me, I leave a simple inheritance, the responsibility to keep alive the will to progress pushed in the past. For me, if in the past, Ferrari had to do car that were beautiful, high performance, and delivering emotional driving thrills, now we have to add to this ingredient also the fourth one, the sustainability. It was really worth it.
- [30:53]
Rafaela Sedun
Excellent. So, Raffaella, you do get the last word since you wrote the case.
- [30:57]
Benedetto Vigna
Okay.
- [30:57]
Rafaela Sedun
And my question is simply, if there's one thing you'd like people to remember about the Ferrari case, what is it?
- [31:02]
Benedetto Vigna
That sustainability can be an engine for innovation internally and drive the transformation of the supply chain. But what I find interesting about what they're doing is that they're really leveraging. So sustainability in a scientific way that I think has a potential of driving change throughout the supply chain and internally.
- [31:22]
Rafaela Sedun
Rafaela Benedetto, thank you so much for joining me on Cold Call.
- [31:25]
Leila Dumi
Thank you. Thank you all. Have a good day.
- [31:31]
Brian Kenny
That was HBS Professor Rafaela Sedun and Ferrari CEO Benedetto Vigna in conversation with Brian Kenny on Cold. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about business strategy from Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the word world's top business and management experts, find it all@hbr.org this episode was produced by Robyn Pashas, Craig McDonald and me, Hannah Bates. Kurt Nickish is our editor. Special thanks to Ian Fox, Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew and you, our listener. See you next week.
- [32:35]
Leila Dumi
SA.