Turn Your Supply Chain into an Innovation Engine

Summary

Turn Your Supply Chain into an Innovation Engine

In the February 19, 2025 episode of HBR On Strategy titled "Turn Your Supply Chain into an Innovation Engine," Harvard Business Review delves into the transformative power of open digital supply chain platforms. Hosted by Kurt Nickish, the episode features insights from Kasra Ferdows, an operations management professor at Georgetown University, alongside Hao Lee of Stanford's Graduate School of Business and Jinde Zhao from China Europe International Business School. The discussion centers around how companies can leverage their supply chains not just for efficiency, but as catalysts for innovation.

Introduction: Haier’s Rapid Response to Crisis

The episode opens with a compelling case study from 2019, where Haier Group, a global leader in home appliance manufacturing, responded swiftly to the COVID-19 outbreak in Wuhan, China. Faced with an urgent need for mobile isolation wards, Haier collaborated with a Chinese home furnishings company and multiple suppliers across its supply chain to prototype, build, and deliver these units in record time. This rapid response was facilitated by Haier’s open digital supply chain platform, showcasing how integrated and transparent supply chains can drive innovation and address unforeseen challenges.

Understanding Digital Supply Chain Platforms

Traditional vs. Open Platforms

Kasra Ferdows begins by contextualizing the landscape of digital supply chain platforms. Traditional platforms, exemplified by giants like Amazon and Taobao, primarily focus on specific stages of the supply chain, such as ordering, inventory management, and logistics. These platforms are typically closed systems, where the platform owner controls access and participation is limited to those who formally join the network.

Kasra Ferdows [04:03]: "Digital platforms have been really expanding very rapidly in the management of global supply chains. Supply chain platforms have been mostly focusing on traditional supply chain transactions like ordering and inventory and fulfillment."

However, Haier’s approach diverges significantly. Unlike conventional platforms, Haier’s Cosmoplat is open, encompassing multiple stages of the supply chain and integrating functions beyond mere transactions. This openness fosters a more collaborative environment, enabling diverse participants to contribute to innovation and problem-solving.

Kasra Ferdows [06:32]: "One of the differences in Haier's platform is that it's actually open. It really includes more than one stage in the supply chain and is doing a lot more than just the typical supply chain functions."

Features of Haier’s Cosmoplat

Cosmoplat, Haier’s digital platform, stands out due to several key features:

1. Openness: The platform allows a broader range of participants, including suppliers from various stages of the supply chain, to interact and collaborate.
2. Multi-Functional Integration: Beyond traditional supply chain tasks, Cosmoplat integrates functions like R&D, engineering problem-solving, regulatory compliance, and customer feedback.
3. Decentralized Control: Unlike many platforms that serve as a central “control tower,” Cosmoplat operates on an organic, decentralized model where Haier does not mediate interactions between participants but provides a transparent environment for collaboration.

Kasra Ferdows [07:01]: "They have the visibility, but they are not the gatekeeper between them. If they want to bring a third person among them, that can also work. This is a very interesting organic design that you don't see in many other platforms."

Overcoming Challenges of Open Platforms

Trust and Reputation

Opening a digital platform introduces challenges, primarily around trust and reputation. Companies may hesitate to join an open platform due to concerns about data security, intellectual property, and the potential for competitors to access sensitive information. Establishing trust among participants is crucial for the platform’s success.

Kasra Ferdows [10:02]: "You really have to develop the trust and you have to have a reputation and you have to have a savvy about technology."

Technological Savviness

Managing an open platform requires a certain level of technological expertise. Companies that lack the necessary technical capabilities may find it difficult to effectively participate or contribute to the platform’s growth.

Organizational Design

The success of Haier’s Cosmoplat is not solely due to its technological infrastructure but also its organizational design. Haier has cultivated an internal culture that embraces collaboration and transparency, ensuring that the platform operates smoothly and effectively.

Kasra Ferdows [10:46]: "There is a human organizational side to Haier that allows this platform to really function a lot better than maybe some other companies."

Facilitating Innovation through Supply Chain Platforms

Beyond Efficiency: Fostering Innovation

Haier’s platform exemplifies how supply chains can be transformed from mere logistical frameworks into innovation engines. By integrating functions like R&D and customer feedback directly into the platform, Haier enables rapid prototyping and iterative development of new products.

Kasra Ferdows [11:00]: "The real vision behind this platform was to make sure that we can connect with people that know the answers or can provide the answer and work with them."

Case Study: Smart Refrigerators

A prime example discussed is Haier’s development of a smart refrigerator line. Utilizing the platform, Haier was able to quickly gather user feedback and customize features to meet diverse needs.

• User Insights: Through the delivery and service management module, Haier discovered that users stored not just food but also skincare products and herbal extracts, each requiring different environmental conditions.
• Customized Solutions: This insight led to the design of refrigerators with specialized chambers tailored to varying levels of moisture, airflow, humidity, and temperature.

Kasra Ferdows [13:48]: "They found out that many of the users used refrigerators to store things that require different levels of moisture and temperature, so they designed different chambers for that."

Organic Growth

Cosmoplat’s structure allows it to grow organically, adapting to emerging needs and challenges without a rigid master plan. This flexibility is likened to a tree that branches out naturally, responding to the environment.

Kasra Ferdows [16:12]: "It's nice about this platform is that it grows organically. It doesn't have to have a master plan... It's almost like a tree."

Practical Advice for Other Companies

Leveraging Existing Software

Kasra Ferdows emphasizes that companies do not necessarily need to invest in entirely new systems to transform their supply chains into innovation engines. Existing software can be adapted to support more open and collaborative functions.

Kasra Ferdows [20:49]: "It's much more about policies and routines... they don't need a new architecture."

Starting Small

Companies should consider initiating their platform projects on a small scale to build trust and demonstrate value before expanding. Starting with a few trusted partners allows for manageable growth and the establishment of robust collaborative practices.

Kasra Ferdows [23:19]: "You could start with only three or four, five suppliers or some people. It doesn't have to be global."

Quality Over Quantity

Unlike traditional platforms that rely heavily on the network effect, Haier prioritizes the quality of relationships over the sheer number of participants. This approach enables meaningful collaborations that drive innovation without necessitating a large initial user base.

Kasra Ferdows [17:27]: "The emphasis is much more on the quality of relationship as opposed to the quantity of the participants."

Lessons for Leaders

Visionary Leadership

Leaders must have a clear vision of how an open supply chain platform can serve as a tool for innovation. This involves looking beyond immediate efficiency gains to long-term strategic benefits such as enhanced collaboration, rapid adaptation, and continuous innovation.

Kasra Ferdows [21:37]: "It's about developing an attitude or policy to reach out and connect with resources and capabilities wherever they are."

Embracing Open Innovation

To fully leverage the potential of their supply chains, leaders should adopt an open innovation mindset. This means encouraging external partnerships, integrating diverse perspectives, and fostering an environment where collaborative problem-solving is the norm.

Flexibility and Adaptability

Leaders must ensure that their organizations are flexible and adaptable, allowing the supply chain platform to evolve in response to new challenges and opportunities. This adaptability is crucial for sustaining innovation over time.

Platform Ownership and Scalability

Not Necessarily for Big Players

One of the most significant takeaways is that ownership of an open supply chain platform is not restricted to large, global companies. Even small and medium-sized enterprises can develop and benefit from such platforms by starting small and focusing on building strong, quality relationships.

Kasra Ferdows [23:19]: "You don’t need to be big nor do you need to be the top dog... you could start very on a limited basis with a few suppliers."

Incremental Growth

Platforms can begin with a focused scope and gradually expand as trust is established and as the organization gains experience in managing collaborative relationships. This incremental approach mitigates risks and allows for sustainable growth.

Kasra Ferdows [24:44]: "You can find a garden to start in. You can start very on a limited basis with one or two suppliers."

Conclusion: Transforming Supply Chains into Innovation Hubs

The episode wraps up with a synthesis of the insights shared by Kasra Ferdows, highlighting the transformative potential of open digital supply chain platforms. By fostering transparency, encouraging collaboration, and prioritizing quality relationships, companies can turn their supply chains into powerful engines of innovation. Haier’s Cosmoplat serves as a pioneering example, demonstrating that with the right vision and organizational design, supply chains can transcend traditional roles and become integral to a company’s strategic innovation efforts.

Kasra Ferdows [25:34]: "Once you start working with them, then you start selling them other things. You can learn from it and expand as you wish."

Key Takeaways

1. Openness Enhances Collaboration: Open digital platforms facilitate greater transparency and collaboration across multiple stages of the supply chain, driving innovation beyond traditional efficiency gains.

2. Start Small and Scale Gradually: Building trust and demonstrating value with a few key partners can enable platforms to grow organically and sustainably.

3. Focus on Quality Relationships: Prioritizing the quality of interactions over the quantity of participants leads to more meaningful collaborations and innovation.

4. Adapt Existing Systems: Companies can adapt their current software infrastructure with the right policies and routines to support an open and collaborative supply chain platform.

5. Visionary Leadership is Crucial: Leaders must cultivate a clear vision and supportive organizational culture to fully leverage the potential of supply chain platforms as innovation drivers.

By embracing these strategies, organizations of all sizes can transform their supply chains into dynamic, innovative ecosystems capable of responding swiftly to changing market demands and unforeseen challenges.

Transcript

[Hannah Bates]

This episode is brought to you by Domo's AI and Data Products platform. With Domo, channel AI and data quickly, securely and innovatively to deliver measurable insights, analyze, visualize, automate and distribute data all amplified by AI. Learn more at AI.domo.com welcome to HBrown Strategy, Case Studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock new ways of doing business. Imagine a company that can, in a matter of weeks, develop, prototype, build and deliver innovative products. That's exactly what Haier, one of the world's largest home appliance manufacturers, achieved in 2019 when the city of Wuhan urgently needed mobile isolation wards to curb the spread of COVID 19. Haier partnered with another home furnishings company and suppliers up and down the supply chain to deliver in record time. So how did they do it? They leveraged their open digital supply chain platform. Today you'll hear from Kasra Ferdows, an operations management professor at Georgetown University. He'll explain how open digital platforms facilitate innovation and problem solving by making the entire supply chain more transparent to suppliers. It may sound daunting, but Firto says you can do it too. Start small by opening up just a few functions to a limited number of partners. And you don't need to be a large company to do this well. This episode originally aired on HBR IdeaCast in June 2022. Here it is.

[Kurt Nickish]

Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Kurt Nick. The Chinese city of Wuhan was urgently in need of mobile isolation wards. It was 2019 at the site of the first outbreak of the novel coronavirus. Officials put out a call. The China based company Haier Group answered. Haier is a global leader in appliance manufacturing. It teamed up with a Chinese home furnishings company to prototype, build and deliver these mobile isolation awards. And they did it in record time in a matter of weeks. It wasn't just the emergency situation that kicked things into top gear. Haier used a remarkable in house digital platform. That story has lessons for any organization that wants to leverage its digital platforms for new business opportunities. But you don't have to work at Siemens or GE or another company with a global supply chain for this to apply to you. It has lessons for anyone trying to collaborate quickly and effectively with partners to tell the story. We're joined today by Cassra Ferdows, a professor at Georgetown University with Hao Lee of Stanford's Graduate School of Business and Jinde Zhao at China Europe International Business School. Firdos wrote the HBR article How to Turn a Supply Chain Platform into an Innovation. Lessons from Hire Kasra, it's great to have you.

[Kasra Ferdows]

It's a pleasure and thank you very much, Kurt, for this opportunity.

[Kurt Nickish]

You've studied how dozens of companies use digital platforms. Internally. You focused on supply chains for this work, but it could apply to a lot of other functions. What are some examples of these online platforms and how companies currently use them?

[Kasra Ferdows]

One that everyone knows, of course would be Amazon and Taobao from China. But every company, take Home Depot, Walmart, Ester Lauder, all of them also have developed digital platforms. Digital platforms have been really expanding very rapidly in the management of global supply chains. Supply chain platforms have been mostly focusing on traditional supply chain transactions like ordering and inventory and fulfillment and arranging the logistics and sometimes also pickup. So digitization of the supply chain transactions have been going on for a long, long time. And probably it got into a high gear after 2005, 2010, and most companies felt that they had to do it.

[Kurt Nickish]

Are these platforms typically pretty open or closed systems? Like how hard is it to be part of it if you're somewhere else in the company or maybe an outside partner?

[Kasra Ferdows]

The typical ones, let's say, if you take the platforms that essentially are working, if I may be a little technical in here, only on one stage of the supply chain, let's say again, let's take Amazon or even non supply chain platforms like Uber or Airbnb generally is looking at the sort of a producer or provider of the service and the user of the service. The other part of the supply chain, if you go back to the manufacturing, who was this really manufacturer, who was a supplier to the manufacturer, who was a supplier to the supplier, going upstream and going downstream. Looking at the service providers, those are not really generally included in these platforms. They cannot join that easily. Second, generally the platform owner controls who comes in and who is out, so to speak. And with Amazon, you have to sign up with them to join them. And also with Alibaba, with everybody else is like that. One of the differences in Haier's platform is that it's actually open.

[Kurt Nickish]

So in your work looking at dozens of these platforms, Haier Group really stood out in your research. That's the Chinese appliance manufacturer that some people know because it is a global brand. What struck you about their system?

[Kasra Ferdows]

Well, let me maybe step back for a second and say that Hao Li and Qiande Zhao and myself have been studying supply chains, global supply chains really for many years. Then when we sort of, we were intrigued when we saw what was happening at Haier's platform, which, by the way, it's called Cosmoplat, which stands for Cloud of Smart Manufacturing Operating Platform.

[Kurt Nickish]

That's a name made for a corporation for sure.

[Kasra Ferdows]

Yeah. When we started looking into it, we were intrigued that it was different in a number of ways from the typical platforms. Openness is one second, it really includes more than one stage in the supply chain. As I mentioned, many of them don't. Even the B2B business to business supply chains only look at, let's say, manufacturer to, you know, one manufacturer to other manufacturer. They don't really go up and down the chain too much. Maybe number three is that it is doing a lot more than just the typical supply chain functions that I mentioned. It also gets into R and D. It gets into solving engineering and technical problems. On the production side, it gets into getting custom clearance, helping the people that need to be helped with regulations, with laws, with safety, for example. On the medical side, you know, a whole bunch of other functions other than the typical supply chain functions. And maybe the most interesting for us academics was that it sort of didn't have a control tower. Many of these supply chain platforms are. Many people have been saying that it's almost the. They create something like a control tower in an airport, that every airplane should tell them where they are and where they are flying so that they can be sure that everything is all right. At higher, this Cosmoplat, the architecture seems to be one that says, listen, higher platform owner doesn't have to be in the middle of everything. Here's the problem. Who can solve it? Come and explore it. They do a very rudimentary certification. And then if the company that comes in decides to work with somebody else that is already also part of this open club, then they do a little bit more serious due diligence, only to be sure that the company is not lying about its capabilities. It's not an assessment of their capability, it's just checking. And then they let them work together. They know what's going on. In other words, they have the visibility if you like, but they are not the gatekeeper between them. And in fact, if they want to bring a third person among them, that can also apparently work. This is a very interesting organic design that you don't see in many other platforms. And of course it doesn't mean that the other platforms have to change into this, but it's a new direction for the evolution of these platforms that we hadn't really at least observed.

[Kurt Nickish]

In reality, why don't more companies open up their platforms more. I mean, I can think of some obstacles here, but what would be some of the reasons for not opening up your platform so much and, you know, doing only a few days of due diligence before you let somebody kind of run loose.

[Kasra Ferdows]

You could divide it into a whole bunch of reasons. But let's say the more practical problems are that you really have to develop the trust and you have to, you know, because just joining the platform, even there, you need to build up, you need to have a reputation and you have to have a savvy about technology. It's, you know, some small companies that are not very technology savvy, it might be difficult for them to do it because this is an, this is alive, this is constantly changing. That kind of expertise is also perhaps an obstacle.

[Kurt Nickish]

So you're saying that there's just a brand risk here. If you invite people onto your platform, it needs to be run well, it needs to work. You need to be professional to keep your reputation.

[Kasra Ferdows]

That plus the fact that in our opinion, there is a human organizational side to Insight Hire that allows this platform to really function a lot better than maybe some other companies. I don't want to give the impression that the platform is doing it automatically. There is an organizational design behind the way this platform works. But if you can get that part also done, the rewards could be really enormous. Maybe I should say the real vision behind this platform that really attracted us and that was this. No, this is Jean Ruiming, which was the CEO and the founder of Higher in 2013 after they had already got some supply chain platforms, he came up with a vision, said, I don't want it to be just doing the supply chain stuff. I want this platform to be a tool to access what I need resources and capabilities that I need for coming up with a new product to deal with the disruption, to come up with a new engineering to know what the customers want. I want this not to be inside and outside the company. By the way, as you said, Haier is a huge company, 108 manufacturing facilities, you know, in all continents. So there's a lot of resources inside if you like, but also outside the company. We don't have the answers. So let make sure that we, we can connect with people that know the answers or can provide the answer and work with. To me, that vision is a little different than the vision for many other platforms.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah, that's interesting. It's almost like a vertical integration platform. You're just saying this is a tool that we're going to use to develop products and services. And it's not about where the supplies actually come from to manufacture something. A lot of companies though would say this seems like you're giving away too much or letting maybe too much from the outside in. Like if a firm can join a platform within 24 hours and see what kind of things you're working on and the expertise you're looking for, that could give a lot of information to competitors so they maybe can come up with products to compete against you.

[Kasra Ferdows]

Kurt, that's a very apt observation and it's absolutely a risk. But maybe I can add something about my own personal experience. I write many cases and we have been discussing Toyota and Zara and many other companies. What I found is that all these companies that are very innovative and really come up with whole new ways of doing things, they don't seem to be afraid of letting other people know about it. Somehow they feel that they are rushing forward so much or maybe they're gaining more than the risk that would be there.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah. So how does this really facilitate innovation? What were some of the surprising results with Haier?

[Kasra Ferdows]

I think the best way to talk about that is to go over, let's say a few examples on smart refrigerator line that Haier developed. They use this platform very heavily and just very quickly. This platform has got several modules. One is called the cooperative innovation and design module. This is where the designers and technical people, et cetera, are. And this is also a sample of end users. The second module is production, what they call production resource integration module, which is a module that essentially does the supply chain management plus a little bit more direct things, including payments and insurance and so forth and so on. The third one is delivery and service management that looks at the fulfillment, the marketing channels, the delivery service providers, the after sales service providers, etc. So they used all these modules to develop this smart refrigerator line that they talk about. For example, they use the third one that I mentioned to you to get from the users what did they really desire in the new line? For example, do they what kind of a customization they want? Did they want to know exactly what's going, what's inside the refrigerator on their phones, how much did they care about that, et cetera? And they found out a few things that they, at least for them, it was interesting to learn a little bit more about this. For example, that many of the users used refrigerator to store many things other than food, for example, skincare, herbal extracts, but things that are not normal fruits and vegetables. And what they found out is that Each one of them requires a different the level of moisture, airflow, humidity, temperature. So they needed to design if you like different chambers for that. You see what's nice about this platform is that it grows organically. It doesn't have to have a master plan that this is the way it's going to grow. No, let it's almost like a tree. Let it be. Where are the problems? Let's make sure everybody knows about everything and then let's see where it grows and then we follow it, we support it.

[Hannah Bates]

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[Kurt Nickish]

How can other companies think about using their existing software to both improve supply chain management and and innovate more broadly at the company?

[Kasra Ferdows]

This is what I think is the is the sort of good news. Most of these other platforms are essentially very dependent on the network effect that I'm sure you know. But just to explain, the more people come to this network, the more people like to come to the network. So you have to invest a lot at the beginning to get into this virtual cycle. Otherwise you'll be in a vicious cycle and you would go out of business. And there have been many examples of that. So this idea that we have to start big and really go all the way in the very invest, invest, invest, invest big so that you start getting into a virtual cycle is there but not for this kind of platform which is actually the emphasis is much more on the quality of relationship as opposed to the quantity of the participants. So that means that you could start small and gradually grow, learn by doing, show some improvement and maybe reinvest, convince more people and reinvest some of that money to invest to grow more. So that path is a lot easier to take than many others. Now the second part that makes it easy is that maybe critical is that for at least for some of these companies that have the enough have just the minimum capabilities that are required, have a name, have got technological savvy, savviness if you like. They it's for them. It's important to have the vision of what they want from this platform because otherwise they could be locked into just a supply chain. Efficiency and you know, inviting suppliers, inviting going after people that they hear about. But to create something that is open membership, something that really looks at multi functions, something that is multi stage, not just one stage and something that can grow organically, self generating relationships. These are okay, some conceptual points, but they are important to keep in mind as a vision when you are growing this platform. So the answer, the long answer to your question is this, that many companies can start and in fact, because the barrier to entry, so to speak, is not that big, even for small and medium sized companies that are not really, they can't create these kind of platforms even for them. It's important to be aware of these kind of platforms because they may want to join, they might just want to see what's going on. If they are not joining and these kind of clubs start working together, etc. They might get their customers away from them.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah, and it's a cheap way to learn, you know, join, see what other people are doing and see how things work.

[Kasra Ferdows]

And once you start working with them, then you start selling them other things.

[Kurt Nickish]

Right now tech debt is a real thing, right? It's often an uphill battle to replace existing systems, get people trained on new systems. Can big companies adjust the existing software they have? Or is this about building new platforms when the strategy and budget is there to do that?

[Kasra Ferdows]

I don't think there are fundamental problems with the software or anything like that. It's much more about policies and routines that you want to put around, around the platform. Who can join, how they can join. How can you start changing the relationships? Can you start bringing in engineering, R and D, customization, customer surveys, et cetera into this? Those things might require a little bit extension, but I don't think it needs a new architecture. And again as I said, the beauty of it is that you don't have to jump into the deep end of the pool.

[Kurt Nickish]

We've talked about what big companies can take away from this. We've talked about what some small suppliers could take away from this. What other lessons do you think there are here for leaders?

[Kasra Ferdows]

I think the idea of going after resources, wherever they are is a very interesting one. What are the tools that you have at your disposal in your industry or even neighboring industry or even other industries that can reach out to These people and somehow make it attractive for them to come and see what's going on, at least if they want to contribute, join you or not. It's a daunting task. You know, how do you do that even for things that you still don't even know what, what home appliances or any other field are expanding into so many things. We are putting more information, content in the products, we are connecting many more suppliers together. All of these things are happening in every industry. So to have a tool to be able to gradually, under a controlled system, to reach out to them is a philosophical lesson, if you like. For other companies, it's an attitude or maybe a policy. You don't really need to change things physically too much right at the outset. You know, there might be some dangers in there. But to come on the side of the trade off that says, okay, let me control the risks as much as I can, but not take my eyes off that, let me still go in that direction. Maybe that's the art.

[Kurt Nickish]

Do you have to be the top dog to own these platforms? I mean, do you have to be the global manufacturer to be the one who's really owning and running this ecosystem?

[Kasra Ferdows]

You know, we have discussed it among the three of us a little bit. It may be the historical sense that a big company would do something or maybe really a visionary chairman manages to do this and changes inside the organization so that they can benefit from it. But technically speaking, as I mentioned before, I don't think you need to be big nor you need to be a top dog to be able to do this. It's really a matter of, again, let's call it philosophy now, develop that terminology in this conversation. It's really the way, the attitude, the vision that you have for your platform, it could be very small. You could start with only three or four, five suppliers or some people. I mean, it doesn't have to be global, it doesn't have to be even all the functions at the same time. It's like again, thinking about a plant is a useful one. You can see the plant and you start letting it grow. Okay, it can become a big tree and then have many branches, but it also could be a small tree. You're growing your little tree.

[Kurt Nickish]

I think that's a really good point because a lot of places that might be too scared about some of the risks or perceived risks about doing something really big and open and showing off everything that you're working on. You can find a garden to start in.

[Kasra Ferdows]

Yeah, you can start very in a limited basis with one or two suppliers and you know, to start working like.

[Kurt Nickish]

This, trusted folks that you want to develop more complex working relationships with. Right.

[Kasra Ferdows]

But while you do this, you have developed the trust, then you let them invite others as well. You are not the boss. Let them bring in people that they know and then let the other ones bring in the people that they know. Maybe in particular area, all of a sudden you've got all the know how and the capabilities and facilities and suppliers. For example, for a hot plate on an oven, the rest of it is still there. But you know, at least you get that part run like this.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah. And you can learn from it and expand as you wish. Right?

[Kasra Ferdows]

Precisely. Precisely. Yeah.

[Kurt Nickish]

Kasra, this has been great. Thanks so much for sharing your research with us.

[Kasra Ferdows]

It's my pleasure, really a pleasure to talk to you.

[Hannah Bates]

You just heard Georgetown University Professor Kazra Firdos in conversation with Kurt nickish on HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about business strategy from the Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it [e-mail] this episode was produced by Mary Dew and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Special thanks to Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Gabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew and you, our listener. See you next week. Weekend.