Podcast Host/Interviewer (4:16)

You start off your book recognizing that tech has given us so many things. You point out we can contact almost anyone anywhere on the planet. We have access to more information than libraries can hold. And in some ways, it's leveraged certain fields of privilege. Others not so much, clearly, but it's some in some areas. But the world being both at our fingertips and only 13 inches from our face is not necessarily a good thing. What has tech provided that you're most grateful for?

Frank Pasimato (4:54)

So in the book I mentioned, I do say something like, we can do things on our device that the richest, most powerful people in the world couldn't do not very long ago. So that's. That's true for anyone that has a device. For me specifically, I mean, I met my wife online, although it was through a pen pal website. So that's kind of somewhere in a gray area between analog and digital. But I still, I met my wife online. I wouldn't know her, I wouldn't have my daughter for the Internet. Resultingly, if we want to follow that through. I work online mostly. I pay a lot of my bills working online. So those are big, huge things that digital life gives me that I'm not ignoring. So the cost is huge too though, or else I wouldn't be thinking this. Right? So I mean, obviously in so many ways is Rick's my life. And yet if I'm not careful in the day to day, it'll take away a lot of my quality of life, it'll take away a lot of my joy, I'll take away a lot of my thoughts, a lot of my personality, a lot of my happiness. Those are big things to give up. So you gain so much and you lose so much from it. And so that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (5:55)

When you talk to others about approaching this sort of analog life, what, what's the primary reaction you get?

Frank Pasimato (6:04)

People are really excited about it and I. And especially young people. Right. So this is the fear that we might have because I know, I am aware. So I grew up, I'm of a certain age, so I work online now. I'm reasonably techie because I work online. But most of my coming of age I didn't have the Internet, certainly didn't have it at home. And in the earlier years it essentially didn't exist. Right. So I've lived really in both errors. If you took my life right now and split it in half, it was like first half, no Internet, second half, Internet, right. So I really do know what both looks like. And so of course there's a tendency to think if I'm talking about living analog or you know, being screen free, people might think that I'm being nostalgic. I want, I'm trying to go back to when I was younger and who knows, maybe there's an element of that. But when I talk to younger people who grew up only in the digital era, they are actually some of the people that are most enthusiastic about what I'm talking about. And they'll say something like, I feel the same way or I've always thought that, or you know, I notice how much the device affects me and I wonder what, you know, life would be like if I used it less. So young people are really excited by it. And I mentioned, you know, I try to make that point as clear as possible when I'm talking about living analog. I'm really not talking about being retro or old school or something like that. I'm Talking about a way of living that for some people would be something they've never done. Younger people, I think, has been the ones, I think, where my talk in my, my book resonates with almost the most. And I really have tried. I don't know if I succeeded, but I've tried to strike a tone that is anything but. Oh, kids these days, they just don't have it like we did or, you know, their phone zombies. I am a phone zombie. At my age, when I'm looking at the screen, it's not about criticizing younger people. And I think they recognize that. And so I think that that resonates with them. But of course, it also resonates with, you know, Gen X people who maybe lived in the both eras like I talked about, or maybe people of the older generation than that as well. So it is actually a pretty universal subject. The struggle between, you know, screen time and the benefits and drawbacks of using your phone is something that virtually everybody in our society is dealing with.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (8:26)

Yeah, I agree. And I, you and I haven't shared, shared ages, but I, but I gather we're of the same generation. There was a point in time where I feel like parents who are of our age zone were they were really the kind of resting hard in this spot of nobody's done this before. We're the first. We don't know what we're doing, you know, all of this. But I kind of like to flip that and point out, yeah, we may be the first generation and millennials may be the first generation to be parenting alongside screens, but also we are the last to remember the before. Right. And, and that's what your book speaks to is the before and the power in really diving into sensory living or just truly, you know, contemplative space.

Frank Pasimato (9:32)

And that's totally true, Hillary. And of course, one day there'll be nobody that remembers the before. And so we kind of have to create a new before. How are people who have only lived in the digital era going to have a sense of self and sense of surroundings and sense of connection that doesn't involve screens? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that our before is a dwindling resource. Right. Eventually there's going to be nobody around that remembers it before. So we've got to create some kind of new version of what screen free life looks like.

Hilary Wilkinson (10:06)

Yeah.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (10:07)

And I, and I recognize that it more and more it seems as though pockets of screen free living is viewed as luxury. So I think whenever there's an element of luxury attached to becomes kind of romanticized. So

Frank Pasimato (10:31)

that's such a good point that you're saying earlier, and I really think about this a lot. So when you mention something like luxury, I tried to keep all the activities in my book, things that were free or cheap. There's one that's one that involves buying a disposable camera and I felt bad because that's what, 20 bucks or whatever. So I didn't want people to spend money at all with these activities. With that being said, you know, one of the things I talk one of the challenges I have in there is, you know, challenging a person to have a two or three hour face to face conversation with another person where you agree that it's going to be face to face. You get your phones turned off except for an emergency, otherwise you're not going to use it. And I'm really torn because that cost absolutely nothing. And yet it does seem like it's kind of luxurious, almost kind of decadent, like I'm going to spend two or three hours not doing anything but talking to another person. So it is actually kind of like a luxurious thing. But it's also a free thing, right? Other than time, which is the most valuable thing we have. And somebody might say, well, I don't have two or three hours to spare. Who has two or three hours to spare? And you're not wrong. But when's the last time you spent two or three hours? Scrolling Yesterday. I mean, so we do have, in a way we do have that time. We just don't think we have that time.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (11:46)

So we have to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to talk more about those analog life choices and applying this whole concept of less is more to our digital life.

Hilary Wilkinson (11:58)

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Podcast Host/Interviewer (12:40)

I'm speaking with Frank Pasimato, who grew up in Boston. He's taught at some of the nation's most diverse community colleges and enjoys writing poetry and fiction, and his latest work however, is nonfiction, a workbook called how to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World. And we're talking all about it today. So, Frank, can you discuss how this concept of less is more applies to analog living?

Frank Pasimato (13:14)

Yeah. So we hear less is more. So much. And it doesn't mean it's not true, but we hear it so much, it kind of loses some of our meaning. And I actually kind of like to think of it almost reversed. More is less. Let's think about that for a minute. So more is less. And what does that look like? It's as simple as, have you ever been frozen? Trying to. On a streaming service, trying to figure out what to listen to or figure out what to watch. Right. So we have all these options, but when those options get into the millions, that's really kind of different than how our. How we experience the world as humans. Right. We're experience the world on a scale that's not really like that. So when we have unlimited possibilities, like unlimited things to watch, unlimited things to listen to, potentially unlimited jobs to apply for, potentially something more interesting always going on in your device than what's in front of you, potentially unlimited romantic partners that might have something that yours doesn't, when we have all these possibilities that, you know, that the digital world opens up to us, that's where it gets into kind of more is less. Because first of all, all those choices are immobilizing. Second of all, all those choices can make us really ungrateful for what we do have. Right. And also, sometimes they can, I think, pull us out of what's closer to us. So, I mean, like I said, I work online, so I'm not saying that, that, you know, of course it's. It's possible to pursue dreams and, and, and make a living through the help of technology, certainly. But sometimes when you do, when you. Whatever it is you're pursuing, you can get so lost in the digital world that you don't realize that there might be resources of people that you know in real life or things that are closer to you, that maybe are more tangible that you could use to start whatever it is that you're trying to do. So the idea is less is more. Coming back to this, there's a quote that I mentioned in, in the book from Lao Tzu where he says, those with those with less become content. Those with more become confused.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (15:23)

That is me in every grocery store, which is why I go to, like, I shop Farmer's Market or Trader Joe's, because, like, I don't. I don't need 15 brands of, say, peanut butter. I like, I need, oh, crunchy, salty, like. Okay, that's it. So I, yeah, that infinite choice kind of leads to decision paralysis.

Frank Pasimato (15:47)

So when we think about analog, right, It's a straight line. That's the present, that's today. Right. But digital is movable, right. You can move things around all over the place, but you can't really.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (15:58)

Oh my gosh, I'm having like a moment. Yeah.

Frank Pasimato (16:01)

Can't really move next week into today. Right. So we live kind of more analog than that. And that digital way of doing stuff and planning and thinking in eventually, I think, you know, cause us a lot, a lot of unhappiness. And I think it comes down to again, that more is less type of idea. Right. Instead of the left is more. What's the less right now? What we have in front of us.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (16:27)

Yeah, yeah. No, when you describe time that way, I've never applied it to digital life, but you're absolutely right. At least in the Western world, we view time as a, as a linear construct. But you're right, we add in this digital component and it becomes multi dimensional. And yeah. Wow, Frank, you're blowing my mind here. So this whole thing of infinite options has become a huge issue, I think, in the land of, I mean, fortunately, you were able to connect with your wife online and you say like it was kind of a hybridization of online offline connection. But when I speak with friends who have entered the land of online dating, it seems the options there are greater than anything. But the loneliness quotient is soaring.

Frank Pasimato (17:24)

I think that for somebody looking for a partner, looking for whatever, the idea that the Internet opens up more options is a good thing. Right? I mean, if you, if you're going to wherever your bar or church or whatever in your neighborhood and there's nobody there that's a match for you, that's very limiting, Right? So this idea that, you know, you can open it up to wider, why can't you fall in love with somebody or whatever, or have a connection with somebody that lives in a place that you don't live or that you've never lived yet, that's a powerful thing. And I, I, I think a good thing. But again, it comes with it a lot of challenges. It comes with it that discontent that you might think that the person you're with can be replaced by somebody that has some other quality. Because if the whole world out there, how do you know you didn't miss your soulmate somewhere else? Right?

Podcast Host/Interviewer (18:15)

Oh, my gosh. And Hollywood has taken that idea and is currently running with it. Like there are so many shows that are based upon this whole idea of a platform where you, where you find your soul mate. I mean, it's very like black mirror type stuff where people are, even if they're in a happy relationship, they're, they're almost unable to avoid that temptation of finding someone else.

Frank Pasimato (18:43)

And I talk about that in the book and I admit that is a huge temptation, a huge fear of missing out. And what I, what I say, the antidote to it, if there is one, is basically what you have. What you and your partner have that those other potential ones don't. Is your time together, is the, is the experience that you've had together. Think about it like this. Let's take more minutes out of it. Let's think about with friendship, right? Theoretically, I could find a friend anywhere in the world that has these exact number of matches with me. But I didn't grow up with that friend. They didn't go to school with me. I didn't live in the neighborhood with them. We didn't walk down those roads together. So they're not going to take the place of my childhood friends because we have that which you can't take away, which you can't replace just by. With another person. And so I, I guess I would say that, you know, if you're a year in or five years into your relationship and you're thinking, well, what if there's somebody else And I can't speak for that person in that relationship, but I will just say don't underestimate that one year or that five years those roads you've been down together with that person because that's something you have that those, all those other online options don't have together.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (19:48)

Yeah, you're, you're preempting my next question that I had lined up. But I just want to ask it because I, I loved, I really liked the, the whole idea of this where in chapter six you talked about facts and memories and why you should still trust your memory and source kind of shared moments with your friends instead of just googling something or looking it up. And I think that speaks to that investment in personal relationship.

Frank Pasimato (20:19)

Sure, totally. I basically say that our memories are imperfect. Right. If I'm trying to remember when something happened, I could look at my pictures on my phone and find out exactly what. But if I use my own memory, first of all, I'm flexing that muscle of my memory. But second of all, there's just a value to that. There's something to, like asking another person versus just going online and letting AI answer it for you or whatever. Right. So talking to somebody about that and even your own imperfect memory, there's, There's a value to that. It's not something you want to give away, right. I mean, you and your friend or you and your family member can discuss and debate what something meant or when it happened or whatever, without looking it up. And that's connection. That's time that you had together. Right. That, that you, you know, if you have a choice between I can look this up online or I can ask my friend who knows the answer, or even text my friend, go with the second one because it might be a chance to get in touch with somebody or talk to them or whatever.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (21:20)

Yeah. And I think I, I love that, like taking these, these kind of micro moments to just connect because it also, it does so many things. It reinforces relationship, but it also allows moments where that person feels needed, you know, And I think so.

Frank Pasimato (21:45)

Yes.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (21:45)

In this time of isolation that we live with, we're all kind of siloed in our own little pods of, you know, I can look up anything, I can do anything. Like, we have ultimate independence, but it's not making people happy. And so it, there's great value in just that reaching out to connect with someone, even if only for a, you know, a hot minute of just like, hey, what was the name of that restaurant that we went to with so and so that had that amazing bean dip that was right down. And, you know, I mean, yes, you probably could use Google and figure it out, but I, I like that idea of just connecting with people.

Frank Pasimato (22:29)

What if the text you sent to that person is the first time you talk to them in a few weeks or months or whatever? And you know how easy it is to lose contact with people or friends or whatever, with everything that's going on in life. And now you've just opened it back up again. Instead of looking it up online, you. You open the door back up to talk to that person.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (22:46)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So also you mentioned these activities that you have at the end of each chapter that I really like for people to challenge themselves. And one of the activities is come up with some questions that you couldn't ask Google. So I feel like we, we just came up with some of variety of those. But for those who might need a. A little primer, can you give an example of one or two of those types of questions?

Frank Pasimato (23:19)

Sure. Well, let's really think about that. Like what, what is a question that Google couldn't answer or that AI couldn't answer or whatever it is, right. It's probably going to be either a really personal question. Like, I mean, if I said something like, I don't know, what do I feel like eating tomorrow? Right. I mean, I guess your text history could come up with an answer to that, but it can't actually read your mind. So it's probably, probably a very personal question like that, or it might be a very big question, the type of which nobody's ever really answered, like, I don't know, what happens after you die? Or. Or, you know, what. What should I. What should I do with my life? Or whatever these type of questions are. You know, Google or AI can't really answer those questions for you, so. But it can answer all kinds of other questions. I mean, if the question is, you know, what time is this restaurant open till? Or, you know, what. What year did this movie come out? It's, you know, that's. It's going to be able to answer those for sure, but it's not necessarily going to be able to answer questions that are either very personal to you and the people that you know, or it's not going to be able to answer questions that are so big that there aren't answerable. But they're still things that we, you know, that we still think about. You know, I've got a daughter, you know, she's five or six years old. She's five years old. She's gonna be six very soon. And, you know, she's asking and thinking about the big questions for the first time because she's that age. Right. And we still think. It's not really like at a certain point in life we necessarily answer those questions. We still think about them, right? We still think about, you know, meaning to life or meaning to our own lives or things like that. We think about those things throughout life. And I still think that's unanswerable by Google or AI or whatever. You know, they're big questions, they're personal questions. You carry them with you. And so those are. Those are the kind of things to think about. I mean, I trying to. I'm trying to go a month without letting AI answer any questions for me. We'll see how it goes. But that's my little personal task I'm trying to do right now.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (25:18)

Nice. Nice. So we have to take another short break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Frank Pasamotto for his healthy screen habit.

Narrator/Announcer (25:27)

At what age should I give my child a smartphone? How much screen time should I allow each day? What are the best filters to use on my family's devices? Sound familiar? These questions and more are answered at the Healthy Screen Habits website. We've curated the best articles, books, videos and many other resources to help you figure out how you want to use technology in your life. Click on the Awareness section to learn about the issues and dangers surrounding screen use. Then click on the Tools page to download printables you can use with your family today, including the Healthy Screen Habits Family Technology Plan. Visit our website at www.dothealthy screen habits.org for the resources and tools you need to get started

Hilary Wilkinson (26:16)

I'm speaking with Frank

Podcast Host/Interviewer (26:18)

Pado, who truly believes in the power of an analog life, and I think when I read your book, one of the most powerful paragraphs was the very last one, and I was wondering if you could share that with us.

Frank Pasimato (26:37)

Sure. Here we go. Here's the very last paragraph. Digital life isn't going away, but analog life survives in your soul if you make room for it. This isn't about the good old days. This isn't about going back in time. This is about giving your life more attention than your device. This is the earliest it will ever be. There is no time better than now.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (27:00)

I love that it's both reflective and a call to action. It's so beautifully put. Thank you for sharing that. So, as you know, on every episode of the Healthy Screen Habits podcast, I ask for a healthy screen habit. And this is going to be a tip or takeaway that listeners can put into practice in their own home. Hopefully right away. What's yours?

Frank Pasimato (27:25)

So my healthy screen habit, I suggest, is during empty moments. Those moments when you just check your phone just because you're in line or you're in an elevator or whatever. When those moments when you're not doing anything especially important but you're just checking your phone because you have a spare moment, don't check your phone during those moments. Instead, during those moments, take a second to think a positive thought. Take a second to think about somewhere that you like or to remember somebody that was in your life or somebody that's passed away. Take that moment to pray or meditate or reflect. Put yourself in a good place in that spare moment. So instead of I'm going to check my device and potentially be disappointed when I don't get the email I was looking for or the analytic I was looking for when I when I looked something up. Instead of that, in those spare moments, I'm going to think something happy I'm going to think something positive and it makes a big difference because we have a lot of those little moments throughout the day. And I actually think that those moments are a big part of where our personality comes from and a big part, a big part of our self development and you don't want to give those away. So instead of having just checking your phone because you have nothing else to do, check in with yourself during those moments.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (28:43)

Yeah, I love that sometimes people refer to that type of moment as being mindful. You know, I mean like the mindfulness portion of it. But also I just, I, I love that idea of it being reflective and kind of leaning into your humanity. So thank you as always. You can find a complete transcript of this show by visiting the show notes for this episode as well as a link to purchase how to Live an Analog Life in a Digital World, A workbook for living Soulfully in an Age of overload. You do this by going to Healthy Screen Hab. Click the podcast button and you can scroll to find this episode. Frank, thank you so much for your time today and for just keeping things real.

Frank Pasimato (29:38)

Hillary, thanks so much. I appreciate this conversation. I feel like we still have a lot more to say, but everything that we said here, I think really made an impression on me and you're doing great work.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (29:50)

Thank you, thank you.

Hilary Wilkinson (29:55)

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Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:10)

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Hilary Wilkinson (30:16)

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Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:28)

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Hilary Wilkinson (30:30)

I so appreciate you spending your time with me this week and I look forward to learning more Healthy habits together.