← Heart Starts Pounding: Horrors, Hauntings and Mysteries
Heart Starts Pounding: Horrors, Hauntings and Mysteries
152. Reddit Scary Stories: Terrifying Cult Encounters With Amanda Montell
01:10:45
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- [00:00]
Host
This episode is brought to you by Toyota. Toyotathon is on and right now your local Toyota dealer is celebrating with can't miss year end deals on the vehicles that built Toyota's reputation for legendary reliability. Discover the stylish and efficient Camry and Corolla, both available with all wheel drive or go with a RAV4 or Grand Highlander. Versatile, adventurous and ready to take you and your family wherever the road leads. Need muscle? Take it up a notch with a Tacoma or Tundra, built tough and always ready for the long haul. And no matter which Toyota you choose, you'll find smart financing and lease options available to qualified customers, making it easier than ever to get behind the wheel of the Toyota you've been waiting for. But don't wait. These year end savings won't last. Shop the entire Toyota lineup and find a great deal today on buyatoyota.com toyota let's go places. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. I love giving gifts that 1 people actually use and 2 feel personal and thoughtful. Which is why I've given now three people in my life. Aura Frames. You can share photos and videos effortlessly with a reframe straight from your phone all year long. And you also have unlimited photos and videos that you can send. Just download the Aura app and connect it to WI Fi Now. My grandma lives far away and she's not very good with technology so it is really hard to send her photos. But with Aura Frame, I've sent her my wedding photos. I've sent her so many photos of my dog, my dear Fitzgerald and when my baby finally arrives, I know that she'll be there every step of the way through photos because I'll be able to send her all of the pictures of him for a limited time. Visit or frames.com and get $45 off Aura's bestselling Carver Matte frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code HSP at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code HSP this exclusive black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Amanda Montel welcome to Heartstarts Pounding.
- [01:57]
Amanda Montell
Oh my God. Thank you for having me.
- [01:58]
Host
I'm so excited.
- [01:58]
Amanda Montell
I'm gonna try to keep my enthusiasm to myself.
- [02:01]
Host
No, I'm so excited to have you. Truly. Because I wanted to do an episode like this for so long. Just reading through real cult stories of like experiences that people have had firsthand with cults I felt like there was no one better but you too.
- [02:13]
Amanda Montell
Thank you. I'm honored. What a privilege.
- [02:15]
Host
Can I ask before we jump in, when for did the like fascination, dark deep dives into cults begin?
- [02:23]
Amanda Montell
Ooh, my earliest memories. I'm dead serious though, because my, My dad grew up in a cult. My dad spent his teenage years against his will in a cult called Synanon, which was this. You know, now what we imagine to be a classic cult, this 70s California compound in the tawny brown hills of the Bay Area that started out as an alternative drug rehabilitation center that later grew to accommodate so called lifestylers, or people who didn't struggle with addiction, but who just wanted in on this blossoming countercultural movement of the 1960s and 70s.
- [02:59]
Host
Oh, interesting. Okay.
- [03:00]
Amanda Montell
And that was my grandfather. And so, yeah, when my dad was 14, my. My grandfather forced him and his two toddler age half sisters to move onto this compound where kids lived separately from their parents and there were head shaving rituals and reassigned marriages and this traumatizing truth telling ritual called the game. And in fact, this cult was the entire basis for the troubled teen industry.
- [03:28]
Host
I was gonna say it's interesting that your dad was a teenager when he joined because I read about that kind of laying the foundation for what has become the troubled teen industry.
- [03:36]
Amanda Montell
That's right, that's right. Yeah. It planted the seed.
- [03:39]
Sponsor Voice
So.
- [03:39]
Amanda Montell
So I grew up on my dad's stories of Synanon. And so he had left by the.
- [03:44]
Host
Time you were born and all that?
- [03:46]
Amanda Montell
Yes. So his experience was really interesting because he joined as a young teenager who had up until that point lived in poverty in Spanish Harlem, New York. And so he'd been kind of through the school of hard knocks, and for whatever reason, some combination of nature, nurture, he shows up to Synanon and he looks around and the word cult was not necessarily at the forefront of his mind. In fact, the word cult was not even on, you know, the mainstream public's radar in 1969, the year that he joined. That wasn't really until the Manson family murders, which happened later that year, and then the Jonestown massacre of 1978. Those two cult tragedies got so much press, and after those two happened, kind of everybody knew what a cult was.
- [04:27]
Host
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [04:27]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. But when my dad joined, the word cult was not necessarily in his mind, but he took a look around and he was like, something is off, something's really wrong.
- [04:35]
Host
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:36]
Amanda Montell
And it was also interesting growing up the daughter of not only a Cult survivor, but a scientist. Because I grew up like really skeptical sometimes to my detriment. You know, I want to surrender to group ritual sometimes. And oddly like writing and podcasting about cults and specifically the way that I do it where like every week on my podcast I'm trying to categorizing whether these, you know, cult like groups from the Zeitgeist are live your life a watcher, backer, get the level cult. It's oddly like helped me orient myself around communities that may be a little bit cult like, but are ultimately healthy as opposed to just like writing off all group think as like irrational and stupid.
- [05:16]
Host
Totally. Well, that's great because we're gonna have so much to talk about in this episode. I have these stories that I wanna get into of real people who also kind of came to in situations and were like, what is happening? And then at the end, I want us to go through things that aren't necessarily labeled as cults but feel like cults. Perfect. And get your perspective on some of them. Love it. There's some really fun ones and I added a couple ones myself that I think are maybe a little cultivated.
- [05:42]
Amanda Montell
I'm chomping at the bit.
- [05:43]
Host
Okay, so this one that I'm gonna start with, I think honestly, just hearing your dad's story, this is really. This sounds really similar. Okay. What he went through. So this was Posted originally on July 12th, 2019 on Reddit in our legal advice by a user named about to be taken 21. And the title of this post was just, My parents have joined some New age religion and intend to move me to a compound against my will. What can I do to get the hell out of here? So they were looking for legal advice as to what they could do. So let me get into it what they posted. So I really don't know how to start this, so I'll get right to it. My mom and stepdad are really into New Age science and beliefs. I've never agreed with them on this and I didn't know how extreme it was. Recently though, they've become involved in a extremely weird support group. I say that in quotes because I have no clue who this support group is. When I'm around, my parents never mention any group names or what organization they work for or a part of. Because of this, I've not had much luck finding out more about them. And when I Google New Age cult, it gives too many results to look into. This Monday, my mom and stepdad sat me and my four siblings down. They told us that we Will be moving at the end of the month to a more stable location within a spiritual community. According to them, they plan to pull all five of us out of school here and enroll us in their mind awakening school wherever we move. I tried to get more information out of them, but they refused to talk to me at all about it. According to them, because I'm still a child in mind, body and spirit. Even though I'm 16 years old, hardly a child, I need to listen to them and not ask questions. I've actually been freaking out since then and have been trying to get advice, but I've been unable to. They cut me off of the Internet. They cut off the phone, the TV on Tuesday, and they've been keeping a laser focus on me and my siblings since then. I'm currently at a friend's house and this is the only way that I've gotten access to the Internet. Now, to me, this sounds like a cult. Last night they had three people come talk to me and my siblings, and the stuff they told us was crazy. I was talked to alone by an old man who told me about how my mind is closed and that I will slowly learn to open it as my parents have, and that the leaders of this group would love to meet me and put me in their programs. I need to know what I can do here. My biological dad has shared custody of me, and since Monday, I've not been able to contact him. He's supposed to have a call with me every night, but my mom claims that he's been informed of this situation and supports it 100%. I tried calling him this morning, but he didn't answer. He lives in another state, so it's kind of hard to get into contact with him outside of phone and email at a friend's house because I was able to leave my house for the first time in a week when I told my parents that I just wanted to go to the park. But I came here instead and I told my friend everything. Her parents are not home, but she's trying to call them and I plan to stay here tonight if I can. My parents have forbidden me from using the Internet because it's, quote, full of lies from them. I'm so lost right now, and it makes me sick. I don't want to go with them to this obvious compound and I need to know what I can do here. Can I just run away? And if my parents find me, can I get in trouble? Can they get in trouble? If my mom has been lying about my dad, Is there anything he can do. Thanks. And that was the end of the original post. Wow. Which reminded me of what your dad went through.
- [09:06]
Amanda Montell
Freaky parallels.
- [09:08]
Host
Totally. I mean, well, one thing that stuck out to me here because you talk about this a lot in cultish, is like the language that the parents are using about the like, closed mindedness and just, I don't know, I feel like there were so many flags and things.
- [09:20]
Amanda Montell
And the Internet being full of lies.
- [09:22]
Host
From them, from them, from like an unknown them. Right. You don't know who they're talking about. And this person is 16. They're a minor still. So immediately people kind of jumped in on the comments and they were like, as a 16 year old, the family court system will take into consideration where you want to live. Your father will need to file for a hearing request to. For a hearing to request a modification. So it actually kind of works out better that the parents are separated and that he has one parent outside of the organization. Totally. Who could potentially.
- [09:51]
Amanda Montell
Okay, so what's funny and crazy? Not funny or crazy. What is unfortunate and eerie about this story is that my dad was also a child of divorce. His father and stepmother forced him to join Synanon. But the thing is, he fled his situation with his biological mother because that was almost like even a worse living situation than the cult. He fled that environment trying to seek a better life with his dad and his dad's new kind of replacement family. And weirdly, like, compared to the situation he was in in New York, the cult was not ideal. But at least he had food, he had a bed, you know, like, and, and, and unfortunately there was, you know, not a better alternative for him. But it sounds like there are maybe some options for this individual.
- [10:51]
Host
Yeah, well, I would be curious too. I don't know what it was like for your dad, but this is so jarring as a child to have the parents come and tell you, like, this is what's happening. I'm taking you out of school.
- [11:01]
Sponsor Voice
Yes.
- [11:01]
Host
A lot of times. I mean, we've. We have an episode on Heart Starts Pounding about the Runnerwald secluded family. Have you heard about them? No. So the parents were Moonies. Okay. Who lived in Amsterdam. At some point they had gone to South Korea and become. Came back, but really started indoctrinating the children from birth, got it into the religion. So by the time they were telling the kids, like, hey, the world is ending. We're gonna move to a farm. That way the world's gonna end. We're gonna survive, but like, no one else will and you're gonna Live in the basement of this farm. The kids were like, oh, yeah, okay, right.
- [11:33]
Amanda Montell
Because they grew up in it.
- [11:35]
Host
Yeah, you grew up in it. So you're used to that language. It's when your parents come to you and they're like, hey, the world is poison.
- [11:42]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [11:42]
Host
We never told you this before, but we joined this group. They say that we have to do all these things.
- [11:46]
Amanda Montell
No, it's like, it's a little late to try to convince me that Santa is real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember, you know, my dad telling me that he had a very similar experience where one day his dad was like, yo, we're joining Synanon, because. Oh, it really was that. Yeah, it very much was that. I mean, Synanon had a sort of outpatient, you might say, club where members didn't have to live on the compound. It was literally called the Synanon Club. And it was like this, I believe, a weekly gathering where members would come and eat free snacks, which is an underrated reason to join a cult. Sometimes you just want to hang out with people and eat snacks, which dispels the myth that people join because they're desperate and gullible. Anyway, my dad's dad was a member of the Synanon Club, where they would get together and play the Synanon game, which was this very cathartic, traumatizing, at times, truth telling, group therapy activity where people would gather in a circle and malign one another with vicious interpersonal criticism. And there was all kinds of language to describe, you know, what were these, like, really negative experiences within the synonym game, but kind of reframe. Reframe them as positive and character building. So, like, first of all, this was called a game. It was referred to as something you played.
- [13:11]
Host
Yeah, something that's like, yeah, it wasn't fun playing, but.
- [13:15]
Amanda Montell
And even, you know, on the compound, even young people, minors, had to play it. And sometimes, you know, the vitriol hurled at people during the game could be really intense. So you would just be standing in.
- [13:26]
Host
The center and people would scream.
- [13:28]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, People would, I hate you.
- [13:30]
Host
You're whatever.
- [13:31]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. Let's say, you know, I would. I would isolate someone. I would say, my dad's name is Craig. It would be like, hey, Craig, you know, I notice you skulking around the compound here. You are such a lazy, ingrate piece of shit. Like, it would be really specific going in. And then everyone else in the group was supposed to support the accuser, and that was called backing the play. And then when you were like, you know, kind of viciously or at least very assertively telling them how they needed to fix their behavior. That was called a pull up, like you need to pull yourself up. And all of this insidery language was really compelling. It made people feel like they were in on a culture. And so when I hear things like mind awakening or whatever, that's that kind of loaded language, those charged buzzwords that make people feel like they're a part of something, even if they're not living there yet.
- [14:28]
Host
Yes.
- [14:28]
Amanda Montell
But yeah, my dad, you know, was familiar with the Synanon Club already, but by the time his dad was like, yeah, no, we're moving, he was like, what? You know, like, I just got out of this terrible situation with my mom. Like, tell me more. Like, obviously the Internet didn't exist at the time, but he, he was spooked for sure and there wasn't much he could do. I mean, I don't know if this is quite fortunate, but I guess what's, what's a little more hopeful about this situation is that this person is 16. So even in the worst case, if he does have to live there, if there's no actual like physical abuse happening, he might just have to. Well, I don't know the gender of this person. They might just have to lay low and wait until they can, they can get out and find support. But there are services for people who are in cults, surviving cults, that I can mention.
- [15:17]
Host
Yeah, we'll include links in the description of this episode for people who are also feeling that. Well, I do have two little updates on this story. Okay, so someone did comment. Call CPS and tell them that you're concerned about your safety and the safety of your siblings. Totally. So the first update said, I talked to my mom and I told her that I would like to stay at my friend's house tonight because I'd be moving soon and this would be one of the last times I could see them. So she said it was okay and that this family was trustworthy and not trying to corrupt my view. I ended up getting in contact with my dad and he was pissed. He did not agree and was told that I didn't want to talk to him anymore. My 15 year old sister's dad was told the same, despite the fact that he has primary custody and she only spends the summers with us. So my sister's dad is going to call cps.
- [16:03]
Amanda Montell
Oh, what a relief.
- [16:05]
Host
Yeah, I'm going to be spending the night here. When my mom asked me to come back tomorrow, my dad has told me to not go back and tell her that I'm going to be flying down to meet him immediately and if I don't check in with him or if he hears that I go back to her, he's going to call into CPS and ask for emergency custody.
- [16:21]
Amanda Montell
Oh, wow.
- [16:21]
Host
So I was like, how the situation.
- [16:22]
Amanda Montell
Shut up. I suspicious that there might have been some lying happening between the mom and dad. Yes.
- [16:27]
Host
Turning the parents against each other or saying like, your dad is fine with this. Or I could also see situations where it's like, well, your dad is poison. Your dad is one of them. Exactly.
- [16:37]
Amanda Montell
Or, you know, one of the cult red flags that I've learned about and talk about sometimes on my podcast is this ends justify the means philosophy. Okay. So if you know you're a member of a group where you truly believe that they have the answers to salvation and healing and all these things, but they're like, you need to lie or steal or deceive or something in order to get everybody on board, that's a red flag that you're a member of a high demand, exploitative group. For example, in the Moonies, whenever lying needed to happen in order to recruit people or manipulate them in some way for the benefit of the group. That was referred to with the euphemism heavenly deception.
- [17:19]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [17:21]
Amanda Montell
So that happens too. Yeah, exactly.
- [17:23]
Host
It's like a total way to rephrase it to be like, this is actually a good thing.
- [17:26]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, this like emotionally fraught euphemistic language to get people in this headspace where, like, even if they're doing immoral or illegal things, if it ultimately benefits the group, then it's fine.
- [17:40]
Host
Makes me think of some like, MLM pitches I've received in my life. Like the ends justify the means.
- [17:46]
Amanda Montell
Exactly.
- [17:46]
Host
Get everyone you know involved in this.
- [17:48]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [17:50]
Host
This episode is brought to you by Cacava. I love a good, hearty meal, but I also love a fast meal and oftentimes those two things don't work together, so I just pick whatever's faster. But with kachava, I can have both a fast meal and something that actually nourishes me if I can keep my husband from stealing all of it. Seriously. I've hidden bags on the lowest shelves in the cabinet so that he can never find them. Cachava is a whole body meal shake that has 25 grams of 100 plant based protein. With every two scoops of Cachava, you get 85 plus superfoods, nutrients and plant based ingredients. My favorite way to have a cachava is two scoops of vanilla or chocolate with some oat milk or coconut water and you can have it any way you want with six indulgent flavors. Chocolate, vanilla, chai, matcha, coconut, acai and strawberry. Cachava supports all day energy with five key vitamins and minerals, digestion with fiber, probiotics and enzymes and strength. Fuel and replenish your muscles with protein and electrolytes. Your future self will thank you. Go to cachava.com and use code HSP for 15% off your next order. That's Kachava K A C-H-A-A.com code HSP for 15% off this episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. If you are ever worried about the safety of your home and imagine as someone who listens to a podcast about horrors, hauntings and mysteries, you are well, let me tell you about Simplisafe's early access Black Friday sale. I have a SimpliSafe system and it has really everything. Interior cameras, exterior cameras, door sensors, sure, all of those, but also things that I would have never thought to have like temperature and water sensors, which is especially great if you live in an area where your pipes might freeze during the winter. Another cool thing about Simplisafe is traditional systems react after someone is already inside your home that is too late. SimpliSafe is different. It's proactive. Unlike our friendly ghost Jinx, they have live agents that can actually confront potential criminals while they're still outside before they break in or commit a crime. The fancy name for this is Active Guard Outdoor Protection. Don't miss out on SimpliSafe's biggest sale of the year. 60% off. Right now our listeners can save 60% off on a SimpliSafe home security system@simplisafe.com hsppod that's simplisafe.com hSppod there's no safe like Simplisafe. Okay, do you want to read your story?
- [20:05]
Amanda Montell
I really, really do it for you.
- [20:06]
Host
Okay.
- [20:07]
Amanda Montell
This story is titled My Experience with the Church of Scientology. It's posted in the afflair and it was posted six years ago. It goes like this. This happened when I was around 17 years old and is still happening now. What an opener. At 17 I felt lost in the world and stuck in a job I disliked with work colleagues that didn't like me. It all started on a Friday after work. The factory I worked in had a half day on Fridays, so I would just spend the rest of the day wandering around the city I lived in it had been a tough day of relentless mocking by my coworkers, and I was reaching my breaking point. I went around the city looking for a new job. I visited the police recruitment center, the Army, Navy, and Air Force centers, and even the International Red Cross. I just wanted to get away from it all. After a few hours, I had a bag full of career pamphlets and still no idea what to do with my life. I turned a corner and immediately saw a sign sitting in front of me. I can remember it so vividly now. It said, free personality test. Are you curious about yourself? Come in. I then looked up at the building and in a big fancy sign outside, it said, the Church of Scientology. Now, before I continue, yes, I already knew about Scientology. However, I had a morbid curiosity about it. I had heard all the horror stories and goings on inside the church, but Tom Cruise was my favorite actor, and he seemed to have his life sorted out pretty good. My famous last words right there. So I went inside. I was immediately greeted by a very nice lady. She asked me how I was doing and what she could do for me today. I asked if I could speak to somebody about the church and the personality test. She smiled and said I would be happy to. Please take a seat and I will get someone to speak to. After a minute, I was introduced to an older man named Alan, and he was the head of my city's Scientology Center. Alan took me to a small room to talk privately. When we entered, I immediately noticed the large picture of L. Ron Hubbard on the wall. We sat down and had a nice talk. I told him about how I was unhappy about where my life was going. I told him about how I wanted to leave, plus all the trouble I was having at work. He seemed genuinely concerned for me and I felt like he wanted to help. After a while of talking, I agreed to do the personality test. He gave me the test and left the room, saying to give the test to the receptionist after I had finished. Two hours later, I finished it. Not joking. That's really how long it took. It was around 500 questions about anything and everything. I handed it in to the receptionist and she told me it would take some time to process. In the meantime, Allen had told her to take me to their private cinema and show me a film. I thought it was just going to be some old room in the back with a TV on the wall, but no. They did indeed have a private cinema. It could seat around 50 people and had a large screen in the front. It did feel a bit weird just being by myself in A cinema owned by Scientology. But I bet that hadn't happened to many people. Or maybe it has. Anyway, I sat down and they played me the film. It was about 30 minutes long and consisted of a narrator explaining those strange feelings you sometimes get with some mediocre acting. Following along, I remember a section about how much you doubt yourself, knowing you have a locked door, but going back to check multiple times. At one point, the film showed how a past event that happened to your mother while she was pregnant with you could affect your life in a negative way. For example, your mother was sick on a flight, so you're scared of flying. I also remember something about rotten eggs and how much an event involving them could hurt you. I know it sounds absurd, but in some ways, the film really made sense to me. When the film was done, I was taken to Alan's office and he told me my results. He told me I was extremely depressed, one of the most unmotivated people he had ever met, lacking cognitive thinking, and I was a waste of talent. Now, this made me very upset, but Alan said he could help me. He gave me about four books and a dvd. He told me to read the books and watch the film before my course. I asked what course? And Alan told me he had signed me up to do a course at the center. He convinced me that if I didn't do this course that my life would soon spiral out of control. He made me hand over quite a lot of money and said I would receive an email about the course, which was in a month's time. I left the center, ran home, and immediately started reading the books I was given. This happened all over the weekend. I basically locked myself in my room and did nothing but read and re read these books and watch the DVD over and over again. Over the next week, I began taking notes about myself and my family. I emailed Alan with questions and concerns. I started resenting my mother for my life. I began to think that she was the problem, that everything bad that had happened to me was the result of her. I started to treat her badly, swearing at her, and did the best I could to ignore her. When I emailed Alan about my mother, he told me that if she was the catalyst for my problems, then maybe I should consider disconnecting from her. And I took it seriously. I made plans to totally leave her out of my life. A week before my course, I developed some kind of God complex toward everyone around me. What I read in those books told me what I could become. I saw everyone in my family as below me. I really became a truly spiteful person. Just days before my course, I was confronted by my mother and father. They said they were concerned about me and they searched my room. My dad took out all of my Scientology books. In the dvd. I was outraged. I screamed and cursed at my parents. I said horrible, wicked things to them. I told them how I was going to leave them and how I never wanted to see them again. Hours of arguing, back and forth, tears and crying. However, in the end, they did convince me that the church was a bad place. They said if I was so miserable at work, I should have told them. And that is true. To this day, I can't believe I didn't say anything to them. Instead, I went to Scientology. After the arguing had stopped, they sat me down and comforted me. I really couldn't believe it. After the way I treated them for the past three weeks, they still cared for me. The next day, I emailed Allen and told him I would not be coming back to the church. He quickly got back to me, asking why, Asking if it was my family and if I was being forced not to go. However, I ignored him. The emails I revived in the next few weeks were mad. He told me stuff like I should leave my family now and I could stay at the church. He tried to convince me that it was all because of my mother. He even emailed me to say something along the lines of, he won't be surprised if you read in the papers that I was found dead by suicide. I'm very sure he crossed a line there, but I just kept ignoring him. The strangest email I got was all in binary code. 0, 0, 1, 1 this and 1 000, 1 that. I used a binary code translator, but it all came back as mixed up letters and numbers. None of it made sense to me. I eventually blocked him, however, it still hasn't stopped. About two or three times a year, I will get an email from the church. It's either asking how I am or asking about family. When I get them, I immediately block the email address, but they just keep coming. It's always someone new saying they heard about my case and they were worried about me. The whole reason I'm writing this is because I just got another one the other day, and I thought it would make a good warning. Please, I beg of you, do not go to a Church of Scientology center. If they can make me into a spiteful degenerate in just a few hours, then what can they do with a person in a few months or a year? If anyone has any idea how to block an entire religion cult from my email, then please let me know. And if you're lost in life, sad or upset, then please, please talk to your family, friends, or a doctor when you're down. Don't let others make you into a monster. Take it from me, after this event, I got help, and I'm a happy, confident person now. Oh, and Alan, if you're reading this, you made me into a monster. For your sake, let's not meet again.
- [28:08]
Host
Oh, my gosh.
- [28:10]
Amanda Montell
Wow. Juicy. Very confessional.
- [28:13]
Host
Very confessional, but so classic. To everyone I know that's had an experience.
- [28:18]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Host
With Scientology.
- [28:19]
Amanda Montell
When I was 19, as a bit, A friend and I. A new friend and I were. Yeah. Hailed down on the side of the street on Sunset Boulevard, right where Scientology HQ is, and asked to take a personality test.
- [28:33]
Host
It always starts with a personality test.
- [28:35]
Amanda Montell
It often does. Yeah. Because, like, you know, we're all slightly navel gazing. Who doesn't want to learn a little more about yourself? Yes. This friend of mine, I think, is a little more adventurous than I was. I really didn't want to go, but she was so convincing and she thought it would be fun. And, yeah, our. Our experience was a little different, but, yes, the personality test took two hours. Yeah, we were in there for a really long time, but when they started to sell us things like breaking out the DVDs and the course and wanting our email addresses, I literally, like, grabbed her arm and I was like, we're getting the out of here. And we ran out and got in our car and like, oh, good. Never darken their doorway again, but. Or the opposite of that. They never darkened our doorway or email inbox. But I was only willing to, like, go with the bit for so long.
- [29:24]
Host
No, that's. I mean, so I had an experience very similar to yours. It went for, I think, a lot longer than yours did.
- [29:32]
Amanda Montell
And I was there for maybe four hours.
- [29:33]
Host
I was there for maybe nine hours, and I was out, like, 300 bucks by the end of it.
- [29:36]
Amanda Montell
Oh, no way.
- [29:37]
Host
Yeah. So what happened to me was I had a friend. I honestly, like, I feel for this person so much because this was like, I had first moved to LA. I started a new job. I was 22, just out of college, didn't have many friends. So I had a friend who I, like, just kind of knew very casually, and she was like, we should grab lunch. I'm gonna be in town.
- [29:53]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [29:54]
Host
Sends me the address. I don't even think to check the address.
- [29:56]
Amanda Montell
Oh, my God.
- [29:57]
Host
I'm like, whatever day Of I'll just show up, whatever. I'm, like, driving up to the restaurant, and it's on the campus of the church of Scientology, and I'm like, oh, that's kind of strange. I guess they have a restaurant there that's maybe, like, not involved with the church at all. I meet her for lunch. We have this lunch, and that's when she's like, hey, if you're here already, do you want to do a tour with me? Like, we should check this out. Blah, blah, blah. I didn't realize, like, she was already very deep inside of it and had kind of lured me there. So by the time they're asking for my credit card, I do the personality test. It takes two hours. It's 500 questions. That is not an exaggeration. They tell me I have, like, debilitating anxiety, and they feel bad for me and they're worried. And, like, just, like, the. The language they use is so, like, we're here for you. Like, we care about you. Something is going wrong in your life, and we want to help you figure it out. Totally.
- [30:43]
Amanda Montell
I remember them. I don't remember exactly what my results were, but the guy telling me is always very drastic.
- [30:49]
Sponsor Voice
It is.
- [30:49]
Host
It's always like, we have to do this immediately. Yeah.
- [30:52]
Amanda Montell
I don't remember what he said because I was just, like, I was just incredulous, you know? And he had this, like, smarmy suit and a smarmy hairstyle and this, like, overly twinkly look in his eye. And I was also disturbed by the fact that, like, he was this white guy, but a lot of the people who seemed to be working for him were Latino. They seemed to be like. Cause Scientology, like. Like the multi level marketing industry does prey on immigrant communities.
- [31:19]
Host
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:21]
Amanda Montell
And I was. I was. I was very disturbed by that. I just remember after every sort of personality critique he made of me, he just went, scientology can help you with that.
- [31:29]
Host
Yes. Yeah. And I'm like, we have this here.
- [31:32]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [31:33]
Host
But, yeah, by the time they asked for my credit card, I was already like. I mean, there was just so many people there that were like, we want to help you. Yeah.
- [31:40]
Amanda Montell
So I was like, and you've already been there for nine hours. You've been there for so long.
- [31:43]
Host
I've put so much into this. So I. I was like, if I give them my credit card, maybe I can leave.
- [31:48]
Sponsor Voice
Oh.
- [31:48]
Amanda Montell
Oh, wow.
- [31:49]
Host
And I'll go home and I'll cancel my card, which is what I ended up doing anyway. Very smart. But I gave them My card. And then that was just. I mean, after that, they're like, okay, your class starts now.
- [31:58]
Amanda Montell
Did they retain your contact information?
- [32:00]
Host
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they got calls for years afterwards. I blocked all their numbers. They would call me from restricted numbers. I have like, restricted voicemails on my phone that I saved.
- [32:09]
Amanda Montell
They really get on your. I don't know how I thank God. I mean, thank God they did not get our contact information. One weird detail about the story that I just read is the person who wrote it was definitely British and from.
- [32:23]
Host
The UK Yeah, I was wondering about that.
- [32:25]
Amanda Montell
Something funny about that is that Scientology does claim to have something like 10 million followers around the world. I just think, personally, allegedly, my opinion, that they have 10 million email addresses. Yes.
- [32:39]
Host
That is so fair that they're like, we have a contact list of 10 million people that we've been able to like, farm for their emails.
- [32:47]
Amanda Montell
That's what I think. I mean, because, you know, if you've watched documentaries, like Going Clear or read about Scientology, you know, that, you know, they have so many absurd beliefs as a part of their ideology. Like, you know, some of that stuff that the. The. The teller of that story brought up was, you know, stuff about, like, when your mother was pregnant with you, you know, some of her behaviors might be passed on. And the weird thing is that, like, there is a grain at least of truth in a lot of different cults, philosophies, you know, generational trauma is real and stuff like that. But Scientology believes that, like, children are just adults in tiny bodies and which is so dangerous. Very dangerous.
- [33:33]
Host
That always leads to really bad behavior.
- [33:35]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. And so, you know, children are punished within Scientology in the ways that adults are punished a lot of the time. And mothers are forced to undergo, you know, high ranking, whatever. If you're really in Scientology, mothers are forced to undergo a silent birth. They're not supposed to make noise when.
- [33:53]
Host
They give birth because Katie Holmes had to do.
- [33:55]
Amanda Montell
I remember reading about that because, like, you know, negative, spiritually bankrupting energy could be passed along to the child, which.
- [34:03]
Host
We know is not.
- [34:05]
Amanda Montell
Of course, it's not true. And, you know, they have all these beliefs about, like, invisible body thetans and aliens, but if they brought all that stuff up on your first encounter in the church, you know, no one would ever join because it would be ridiculous. They get you with things that are really accessible, like, and the first courses that you might take are things like, you know, communication or like, ups and downs in life. I interviewed a source for. For my book who was an ex Scientologist. She was in it for a very, very long time. This woman named Kathy Schenkelberg, who now, or at the time that I interviewed her, was doing this, like, one woman show about her experience called Squeeze My Cans, which is a reference to the Scientology auditing machine. Yeah, Squeeze Cans. But anyway, she was very forthcoming about her story, and you can read more about it in the book. But, yeah, she was really transparent about how they get you in the beginning by promising that this is secular. You can be a part of any religion. Scientology is just here to supplement. Da da da. And then as you move along the bridge to total freedom, as they call it, on your path to going clear, you realize that there is just this endless, you know, truly, like, this path that will never get you to enlightenment. There are all these convoluted tears, this massive hierarchy, and that, you know, you'll never achieve the benefits you were promised.
- [35:27]
Host
Well, if, I guess in your experience with all the research you've done, if this really is like being a frog in a pot of water, that's like, slowly the temperature is rising. What is like, the first notch? Like, what's kind of like the first thing that people would look out for?
- [35:41]
Amanda Montell
Well, because I see the world, or like, rather hear the world through a language lens, for me, it's always linguistic cues. So, like, my book is about the language of cults from Scientology to Soul Cycle. So, like, how this wide spectrum of cultish groups uses a specific roster of linguistic techniques to get people to join and stay and, you know, fall under their influence, for better and for worse. Yeah, and so I find that when you join a group, and yes, there's like, fun buzzwords that you pick up right away. And sure, there's like, rousing mantras and chants, but when you start to use these buzzwords, they make you feel a part of the group. They make you feel really emotionally activated. They definitely are dividing you into an us and a them. But you can't really explain concretely why you're using them or what they mean. They don't make sense to outsiders. That's a red flag, especially in combination with this cult language technique called the thought terminating cliche, which is a phrase coined by a psychiatrist named Robert J. Lifton in the early 1960s. And it describes a sort of zingy stock expression that's easy to memorize, easy to repeat, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking and questioning so that the person at the top can remain in power.
- [36:56]
Host
What are, like, examples of those?
- [36:58]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, so let's say you're a member of some group and there's a rule that you want to push back against, even gently. They might hit you with a phrase like, you just need to trust the.
- [37:06]
Host
Process or yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:09]
Amanda Montell
Or like, it's all in God's plan.
- [37:10]
Host
Yeah, one of those cliches of like immediately shuts it down.
- [37:14]
Amanda Montell
Exactly.
- [37:15]
Host
And don't think about this for a single second longer.
- [37:17]
Amanda Montell
Correct. And it's work to have to think. And if you've already sunk a lot of costs into this group and you really believe in it and you've invested a lot into it, then you don't want to have to, you know, reckon with that cognitive dissonance. In Synanon, their go to thought terminating cliche was act as if. And it essentially meant pretend that you believe until you do. Because our leader is all knowing and you can trust that if he has instituted a protocol, you will get on board eventually. In conspiracy theory groups, you know, you might hear certain Q and A types say things like, oh, you just need to do your research.
- [37:49]
Host
Yes, that's a big one. Right now is like the do your research. Yeah, we can't have a conversation anymore after you said that.
- [37:55]
Amanda Montell
Correct. So I see battles of the thought terminating cliches in Instagram comments all the time and I'm like, oh, that's, that's a sign of cultish affiliation. So that's what I keep an ear out for. Because if you're a member of a group that's healthy, if not a little bit ritualistic and mystical or whatever, if you're allowed to express pushback and people will entertain that and respect that and engage with that in a sincere dialogue that even an outsider could comprehend and aren't just going to serve you with a thought terminating cliche or shame you or something like that. That's really something to listen out for.
- [38:28]
Host
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Other online therapy platforms might match you with the first available provider. Whether or not they're the right fit, Rula considers your goals, your preferences and background to provide you a curated list of licensed and network therapists who are actually aligned with what you need because they know that finding the right therapist can make all the difference. Thousands of people are already using RULA to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. But visit rula.comhsppod to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know that we sent you. That's r u l a.com hsppod. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget. Okay, I wanna read you another one that I was able to find. Okay, so this one, yeah, definitely crosses a boundary that the other ones haven't crossed. It's called I Was Almost Kidnapped by a Religious Group. It was posted six years ago in the let's Not Meet subreddit by Sugarbaby 2019 and the story starts this happened to me about six months ago. My boyfriend at the time and I were sitting in the living room of my apartment when I heard a knock at the door. He asked if I was expecting anyone. I said no, but I was gonna go take a look just to see who was out there. He stayed on the couch while I looked through the peephole. The apartment we were in was set up in a way that didn't allow him to see me from the living room where I was at at the front door. But outside there were two people. One young guy who looked about maybe mid 20s and a much older woman who was about 60ish. For whatever reason, I decided to open the door. That's when the young man says, hi, we're a part of so and so religion. I don't really remember what they said and we would like to talk to you about it. Now I have a 50 pound dog who's trying to get out. So I said sure, hold on, I'll come outside because my dog's trying to get out. And that was a huge mistake. I want to clarify that this was very out of character for me. However, I had recently become closer to God and I was willing to give these people a chance. I didn't think there was any harm that would come just from listening to what they had to say. So I stepped outside and I closed the door behind me and they said something about how they prayed to Mary instead of God because she was the one that birthed Jesus. I don't exactly remember, but it was something like that. I ended up just thanking them for their time and saying something like thanks, you guys, stay safe out there. That's when the woman visibly starts Panicking, and starts saying things I don't really understand in a language that I'm pretty sure was Korean. When I looked at our partner to see what he had to say about the situation, he goes, no problem. Maybe you want a pamphlet though? I reply, yeah, sure, not wanting to be rude and also to do some research on the religion because I had never heard of it before. The guy then tells me, okay, great, we have them in the car. You can come with us. We parked right out front. And this is when I started to feel weird. I lived on the third story of an apartment complex that was really not the best and there were no cameras anywhere. Why would they leave their pamphlets in the car if they were going door to door? It wouldn't make any sense to have each person they intrigued come down to their car. And also, the parking spots outside my house were all handicapped, so no one could park there. The woman then grabs my arm and starts directing me to the stairs. In a split second I said, you know what? I'm happy in my faith. Thank you both. Anyways, the woman said something again and what I think is Korean. And the man goes, are you sure we can get it to you fast? We're parked right there. My heart genuinely sank. I started sweating and looking for ways to remove myself from her grasp and the situation entirely. I know I must have looked panicked because I was. What do I do? How do I get away from this immediate danger that I've put myself in? I wasn't thinking and I just blurted out that I was very sure. I yanked my hand from the woman who ended up scratching me from her grasp, and I bolted inside. I locked my door behind me and told my boyfriend what had happened, what they said, and their pitch on praying to Mary instead of Jesus. And that's when he looked at me with a face that I have never seen him make before in my life. He told me about how that specific religion has been in the news the last few weeks because women have been going missing and the only thing that they all have in common is that their neighbors said that they had been solicited by this group around the same day or around the time of that disappearance. I read some articles to fact check what he was saying, and he was right. The police were saying that it might be in connection to a sex trafficking ring that was moving from neighboring cities and now was suspected to be in ours. It gets even weirder though. Somehow I was seriously freaked out. So I went straight to Facebook live and I shared with my friends because I wanted to warn whoever I could. I set the privacy to public after the live ended and I went on with my life still a bit shaken, but I was fine. One week later, I got a Facebook message from someone who's part of that religious group telling me that I needed to take the post down and she was not nice about it. After I said that I wouldn't do it because I wanted to educate anyone who lives in my town, she told me I was a spoiled egg and I would regret ever making that video. I was so scared I blocked her immediately. I set the video to private and click, called the police. The police said they couldn't do much because they didn't have the make or model of the car they were in. And there was ultimately no proof that they had even come to my apartment or even who they were. Here's the part that still freaks me out though. When I went to show them the message from Facebook, I went to unblock the lady and her page was completely deleted. I still had the messages, but it was like I was talking to a little gray default profile picture. Even the name had been changed to something that seemed to be random letters. I want to end this by saying I'm working on not being such a trusting idiot with people. I know the things I should have done differently. I still get upset with myself for how stupidly I had acted. And so to the religious group or sex trafficking pair that showed up at my door and the Facebook lady, whatever your motives were, let's not meet again. And then there's an edit on this page. There's an edit on this post that goes, oh, by the way, the name of the group is God the Mother. And to clarify, I was at my college apartment when this happened. I hope you all stay safe. It's a crazy world out there.
- [47:13]
Amanda Montell
Oh my God.
- [47:15]
Host
Now do you know much about God the mother? No, I didn't really know much about them either. Apparently they are very known to target college kids. Like this is specifically like they go campus to campus.
- [47:25]
Amanda Montell
Oh, that is so sinister.
- [47:27]
Host
Targeting college kids.
- [47:28]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, yeah, I mean that makes sense. A lot of cult like groups target college kids, immigrant communities, stay at home moms. It just depends what you're after.
- [47:38]
Host
I found a little blurb here on them. So God the mother is kind of their like colloquial name. Okay. They're the World Mission Society, Church of God.
- [47:46]
Amanda Montell
I've never heard of it.
- [47:47]
Host
They're a South Korean based religious organization classified as a destructive cult by multiple experts, former members and mainstream Christian denominations. They were founded in 1964 by a man named Ansong Hong Kong. And the group teaches that he was the second coming of Christ and that this living 82 year old Korean woman named Zong Gil Ja is God the mother, a divine being necessary for salvation. Which kind of reminds me of the Moonies that we've been talking about.
- [48:17]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. I don't know what the pattern is there. I mean, I know why cults crop up so consistently in the United States, particularly during times like the 60s and now. It's because whenever there's like a cultural uprising or a lot of turbulence in society, where we lose trust in the institutions that were supposed to keep us safe.
- [48:36]
Host
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Amanda Montell
To alternative groups. And some of those groups are probably okay, but a lot of them tend to be pretty exploitative. So that's why, you know, this group and Synanon were founded during a similar era and.
- [48:48]
Host
Yeah, the 60s.
- [48:49]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, yeah. Same with, you know, Scientology a little before that. But yeah, yeah, yeah, that is. That is chilling. That's a very scary story.
- [48:57]
Host
So then I imagine, I mean, we've kind of. There's been documentaries that have touched on this a little bit, but like all of the cults that came up during COVID all of those, like cyber cults, I imagine that was a time where.
- [49:09]
Amanda Montell
It just exploded a hundred percent. Yeah. And I think people were not necessarily perceiving groups like QAnon or incels as the same kind of cult, because they're not compounds where people are dancing around in midsommar esque outfits.
- [49:24]
Host
Right.
- [49:25]
Amanda Montell
They're digital cults. You know, like comment sections are our new compounds.
- [49:30]
Host
Yeah, that's a, that's a really good way to put it. Honestly, the thing that stuck out to me about this story too was the targeting of college students, because I think that is something like. I remember we had this drink company come to my college when we were. When I was like a sophomore and I lived in a housing whatever, like a suite with three other girls and all of them joined and ended up being an mlm. It's like you have to just like get people under you. It was one of the only ones too, where the founders actually went to jail because usually that doesn't happen. But they actually got arrested and the whole thing got dissolved.
- [50:04]
Sponsor Voice
Damn.
- [50:05]
Host
But we had fifteen hundred dollars worth of energy drinks in our dorm because you had to buy in at like rates and then they send you all the product and yes, they don't care what you do with it. You're just supposed to get people under you.
- [50:18]
Amanda Montell
And yeah, I Remember knowing some college kids who fell to the Cutco knives MLM scam.
- [50:25]
Host
That was a big one.
- [50:26]
Sponsor Voice
Big one.
- [50:27]
Host
Yeah.
- [50:27]
Amanda Montell
I mean college students have a built in community of fellow classmates to recruit from. They're at the beginning of their lives, they're full of hope.
- [50:36]
Host
You're looking for identity.
- [50:37]
Amanda Montell
You're looking for identity. And odds are if you have the resources to go to college, you might have resources to spare on the cult.
- [50:44]
Host
Yeah, of course.
- [50:45]
Amanda Montell
So it makes sense. Very spooky.
- [50:48]
Host
Very, very spooky. That one was very scary. I found, I did find an article actually that came up from. This is from wcnc, because this was happening. I don't know where this story specifically took place, but this article is about Charlotte, North Carolina. But they wanted to verify as a religious group outside of Charlotte stores connected to sex trafficking. And they said that concerning posts had been circling the Charlotte social feeds warning women to stay away from people who might be connected to sex trafficking. And it was about the mother of God people. And what they found was it wasn't like explicitly sex trafficking. I, I think a lot of times too people think of like human trafficking and sex trafficking as like ripping someone off the sidewalk, kicking and screaming into a van. They found that that wasn't what was happening. But they were hosting like retreats.
- [51:37]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [51:37]
Host
And then the women were like not showing up after the retreats or because they were either going off grid or like living on a compound or something.
- [51:43]
Amanda Montell
Well, speaking of the legality of it all, it's. It's really hard to hold cults accountable because, you know, they can make the argument in a court of law because they can make the argument like, oh, these people volunteered to give us their money and time and bodies.
- [52:00]
Host
Yeah.
- [52:01]
Amanda Montell
They're adults. But if you can get someone on a charge like sexual assault, sex trafficking, racketeering, you know, something like that, then you can hold them accountable. Yeah, but that, it's a big problem.
- [52:15]
Host
Yeah.
- [52:15]
Amanda Montell
Because you don't necessarily want to be able to prosecute someone for a psychological crime because then people could start claiming any old thing.
- [52:24]
Host
Is this. No, totally. I imagine it's a very, very gray area.
- [52:28]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [52:28]
Host
And I know that there's a lot of gray area with like, well, how much were you a willing participant in this? And like, to what extent were they a victim versus a perpetrator participant?
- [52:40]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [52:40]
Host
Also like, I know families that are trying to get people like their family members and loved ones out of cults. It's very hard if like the person still wants to be in that cult.
- [52:49]
Amanda Montell
Totally and then there were scandals in the 70s where cult deprogrammers were getting in trouble for kidnapping cult followers out of the cults.
- [52:58]
Host
Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, yeah.
- [53:01]
Amanda Montell
So reverse. It's delicate. It's delicate stuff.
- [53:04]
Host
Oh my gosh. Okay, well, kind of. Speaking of the ones that cropped up during COVID I have one for you to read.
- [53:10]
Amanda Montell
We've got one more. This one is titled my friend, a 23 year old female is being stalked by someone who is part of the cyber cult Twin flames theory. A 36 year old male and has started posting worrying YouTube videos. Trigger warning Emotional abuse and manipulation Obsessive behavior Stalking, Grooming Harassment, threats this post was originally made in November of 2016. Hi guys, I'm sorry if this is the wrong sub to post to as it's about a friend and not me, but I was really hoping for some advice and how to support my friend and point her in the right direction. She doesn't do Reddit. This story started a long time ago and my friend originally met, who I'll call Twin Flames Guy when she was 16 and he was 30. Apparently he became obsessed with her from that point on, which is extremely inappropriate in hindsight. My friend saw him only as a friend and had absolutely no romantic dealings with him. She agreed to meet him on several occasions for coffee or acting classes, but once he'd pick her up, suddenly the plans would change to dinner and dates. There's a lot more to the backstory and eventually my friend realized that it was creepy and wrong and stopped seeing him. However, occasionally still had contact with him throughout the next six years. My friend had never disclosed this to anyone until recently and they said it sounded like she had been or was in the middle of being groomed. She quickly sent Twin Flames Guy a message and asked to cease all contact, but since then things have escalated. He's been posting weird videos on YouTube about how he met his twin flame when she was just 16 and now the time is right. It's his God given right to be with her and it was his for the taking. She also has evidence he turned up outside her house at 3am one morning and just stood there. What can she do? How can I help her? So there are some relevant comments. This one comes from thisisobzathrowaway. They said call the police, document everything, save the videos. They may not be able to do anything, but she does need to at the very least make an official report. This behavior is dangerous and should not be ignored. He obviously knows where she lives. Does she live alone? She should invest in a camera for the outside of her home. Honestly, everyone should, if for no other reason than to protect your property. It's better to have and not need it. I don't mean to go all paranoid sounding over here, but being vigilant with someone who is obviously unhinged is always wiser than the wait till it blows over approach. I would even go so far as to say some self defense classes are in order. This is a wise thing for anyone and everyone to have knowledge of because again, it's far better to have it and not need it. They said that their source for this was that I once had a crazy and obsessive stalker when I was younger. I initially was scared and paralyzed by it. Once I started taking action, AKA police involvement, he disappeared quickly. And then the original poster said thank you. I think she's been in touch with the police and waiting to give a statement or report. I'll update when I know more. Luckily she lives with her family and has a boyfriend who's ready to kick ass. Yeah, it's so important to have some support. There's another comment that said Twin Flames guy. Wait, what? What is this and what is the Twin Flames theory? In any event, she needs to contact the police and get a restraining order and stop all contact with him. So the original poster replied to that I honestly don't know enough about Twin Flames to be able to give you a proper answer, but it's along the same lines as a soulmate and they believe a deeper connection than that. I've done a bit of research and he calls himself a chaser and her a runner because she's not accepting him as her twin flame. Cult language, insider language.
- [56:43]
Host
A chaser and a runner.
- [56:44]
Amanda Montell
It's giving yellow jackets or something.
- [56:48]
Host
It's like victim and prey.
- [56:49]
Amanda Montell
He's readily she's the prey. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so there was an update that was made 16 months later in March of 2018. Hi guys. I know it's been over a year since the original post, but I've been supporting my friend through a lengthy court battle with, to be honest, not a great result. So first of all, thank you for your advice on your suggestions. We contacted the police straight away and they said there wasn't much they could do. Twin Flames guy was arrested and he admitted to everything. The police made him sign a piece of paper that basically said I promise I will not contact her again and let him go. My friend had given countless statements and I had sent them all the videos and screenshots of even weirder Facebook posts he was making. And the police told her there was nothing they could do if she sees him on the street. Run into a shop and get a security guard. They told her she couldn't get a restraining order until he tried to make contact with her again as he had willingly signed the promise piece of paper. Disheartened, we gave up and he continued to post creepy YouTube videos about her online for months and months, sometimes 20 minute long videos twice a day. His stuff began to get more intense. He is definitely mentally unstable. You could see it in his eyes and this roller coaster pattern of emotions he seemed to fly through in such short periods of time. After his arrest, he made videos of him crying, saying he forgave his twin flame and that he would give her space. But really there was nowhere in the world she could hide for long because Archangel Michael had showed him that they were meant to be together for eternity and that signs and sinks meant they had a 4D relationship. He made videos of him kissing his hands, pretending that it was her. Finally one day he posted an absolutely manic video from his car that was really quite scary, claiming his God given right to be with his twin flame and mentioned that he had killed people in his past life. He also slipped up and made some reference with their two names merged together like celebrities do. I want to vomit everywhere even thinking about it. But we knew this was concrete proof evidence that he was talking about her. So once again we contacted the police who seemed to take it more seriously. This time an outside service called Paladin, nsas National Stalking Advocacy Service, got involved and pushed the police to take it to court. Long story short, it went to court however, not for stalking, but for harassment. I'm still not entirely sure how this has happened, whether the twin flame weirdo has managed a plea bargain or something. But all he got was a slap on the wrist and a restraining order, which although is great, hasn't stopped his obsession. They live in the same town and it is very likely their paths will cross at some point. We were really hoping he would get some sort of mental help. It has really upset my friend, but she's trying not to dwell on it. I keep an eye on his movements online, but try not to tell her unless it's something particularly worrying as I do not wish to cause more stress.
- [59:38]
Host
Stress.
- [59:39]
Amanda Montell
He still continues to post videos about speaking his truth and how he will not be silenced, how he went through a triggering ordeal but came out stronger because of it and there's nothing I can do about it. He's become clever and calculated now in what he says in his videos, even though we know they're still about my friend. And there are no obvious links. So the police say all the evidence is circumstantial. This has been going on for six years. We thought he would have given up by now. I feel like it's just a waiting game now until he slips up again. That is exhausting. What a horrible experience. I'm surprised that they weren't able to seek more recourse considering her age.
- [60:17]
Host
Yeah, I was gonna say with the Twin Flames cult specifically. Even, like in the documentary, it's a lot of minors that they pursue this, like, doggedly.
- [60:26]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, yeah. And I know. Well, at last I checked. So sounds like a cult. Did do an episode on the cult of Twin Flames.
- [60:31]
Host
Oh, interesting.
- [60:32]
Amanda Montell
And we interviewed a survivor named Jesse. She goes by Jesse Stories Online, and she interviews cult experts and things. And she has been forthcoming about her story. And she's in the documentary too. She, you know, told me a lot of details at that time. I don't remember all the ins and outs of how Twin Flames operates, and I don't know the latest on their legal standing, but last I heard, like, they had not been sort of brought to their knees quite yet. I mean, they've gotten like, horrible, horrible press and are having trouble recruiting, as you might imagine. But it's not like anyone has been sent to prison like Keith Ranieri or anything like that.
- [61:13]
Sponsor Voice
Right.
- [61:13]
Host
Yeah, they were still operating when the documentary came out. Which. The thing that was so shocking is how much they encourage stalking.
- [61:22]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, it really.
- [61:23]
Host
And it seems like they even take people who wouldn't otherwise be stalkers. Right. And encourage them to start stalking the people that they see as their Twin Flames.
- [61:31]
Amanda Montell
Well, it's that ends justify the means philosophy, and the ends to them is spiritual. Like, this is a theology, if you're. I mean, it. It has its roots in, like, romantic relationships.
- [61:43]
Host
Yeah.
- [61:43]
Amanda Montell
But this is a mystical, supernatural belief system. He said, you know, he has this God given right to his twin flame and the 4D.
- [61:51]
Host
Like, I remember that being a big thing too. Like living in 4D is exactly a spiritual thing you can do.
- [61:56]
Amanda Montell
And this is why religious cults or supernatural cult language is so profound, because it invokes all of your life and afterlife. This is why prayer is so profound, because it strengthens your beliefs. So the more that you use this language, the more you're gonna believe it, the more you're going to feel certain that you do have this kind of Mystical right to abuse this person. Because this is just Earth, you know, like, this is bigger than Earth. And the language solidifies that.
- [62:31]
Host
Yeah. Like, they are these spirits that have to be. What we're doing right now is just earth. But the ultimate thing is that our spirits need to be together for this afterlife or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve.
- [62:46]
Amanda Montell
And it's such an interesting cult premise for this particular time in history when loneliness is an epidemic and people are struggling in more ways than ever to couple up.
- [62:57]
Host
Yeah. During COVID everyone was so lonely. And this is the promise that, like, not only will we help you find someone, but we will help you find, like, that perfect spiritual divine.
- [63:07]
Amanda Montell
Exactly.
- [63:08]
Host
Always been looking for.
- [63:09]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [63:11]
Host
Which is so scary. But yeah, I don't know, like, even watching that documentary because there's still like a lot of these YouTube videos up online that the people post because they're all. They're really encouraged to use, like video diaries, it seems.
- [63:22]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. It's a kind of YouTube is their compound.
- [63:25]
Sponsor Voice
Yes, it is.
- [63:25]
Amanda Montell
It is.
- [63:26]
Host
And they're like. Because they. None of them live in the same area. It was all started on the Internet. So they, I guess, kind of meet up sometimes.
- [63:31]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, they do.
- [63:32]
Host
But yeah, most of it was like online. But the amount that they talk about their twin flame and think about it, it just feels kind of counterintuitive to actual dating, I guess.
- [63:44]
Amanda Montell
I know. Yeah. That cult is. Is definitely a get the out. And it's also a product of our time.
- [63:49]
Host
Yes. It feels like it could only exist in 2020. Like the 2000s.
- [63:53]
Amanda Montell
The 2000s, for sure.
- [63:54]
Host
The loneliness and the. The two. I mean, the like most theater kid leaders ever. Truly, Jeff and Shalia are dorks.
- [64:02]
Amanda Montell
I know. Shalia. Not even her real name.
- [64:04]
Host
Dorky.
- [64:05]
Amanda Montell
Dorky.
- [64:06]
Host
Deeply dorky. And like, they also just don't seem happy. And they're like, you could have a relationship like ours and the relationship just sucks and is so dorky and weird. Yeah. Okay, I wanna. For our last little segment, I have a couple of things. So I was looking up thread that was called what's something that's not a cult but feels like a cult and this feels like your whole bag. Yes. Okay, so the first one that came up as one of, like, the highest rated ones, which I was very surprised about this, but then I thought about it, I was not so surprised. Marching band. Oh, my God.
- [64:35]
Amanda Montell
We just did it. Sounds like a club.
- [64:36]
Host
I know. And I saw that you had just done an episode. This person goes marching band. If you know, you know. Yes.
- [64:41]
Amanda Montell
Oh, my God. I had absolutely no idea. But now I do know. And spoiler alert. But it's a. It's a hardcore watcher back, especially drum corps. Like, the high school marching band is more of a light. A light. Watch your back. I mean, literally, physically watch your back because those instruments are heavy. Yeah. But the, the drum corps where there's a lot of like, hazing and like, honestly, sexual abuse. Like, it's.
- [65:06]
Host
Oh my gosh.
- [65:06]
Amanda Montell
It's.
- [65:07]
Host
No way.
- [65:07]
Amanda Montell
It's really intense. Listen to the episode. It gets. It gets really dark.
- [65:10]
Host
Drum corps is college.
- [65:13]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. And it's like outside of a school.
- [65:16]
Host
Oh, yeah. So it doesn't have maybe the protections.
- [65:18]
Amanda Montell
Of school and like, people drum. Okay. This is not my expertise, but my understanding is that, you know, like 19 year olds in the band are, you know, playing alongside, you know, 65 year olds and everyone in between. And so, yeah, there can just be.
- [65:33]
Host
Some weirdness, power dynamics. Okay. Because in my mind I was thinking of like high school marching bands.
- [65:38]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [65:38]
Host
Which also.
- [65:39]
Amanda Montell
No, that's culty too.
- [65:40]
Host
When I went to high school, it was very culty, for sure. They're just a group in themselves. Think of it.
- [65:44]
Amanda Montell
It derives from like military and nationalism. And yeah.
- [65:49]
Host
You have your costumes, you have your rituals, language, your.
- [65:52]
Amanda Montell
Your physical exploitation, and it completely colonizes your time.
- [65:57]
Host
You're.
- [65:58]
Amanda Montell
And you're like sleeping together when you go on tour.
- [66:00]
Host
Yeah.
- [66:01]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. Band kids are pretty horny.
- [66:03]
Host
I would add theater to that too. Then like totally high school theater community.
- [66:08]
Amanda Montell
We've compared and contrasted these extensively.
- [66:10]
Host
Oh, really?
- [66:11]
Amanda Montell
You gotta listen to the episode.
- [66:12]
Host
Everyone has to listen to that episode. I'll link it. Okay. And then another one that came up was this one comment that goes, I work for a non profit. They tend to refer to employees as family working for a cause, which wouldn't be culty on its own, but they definitely use it to manipulate employees to work themselves half to death and set a culture where boundaries are thought of as not being invested in the mission.
- [66:33]
Amanda Montell
That's right.
- [66:34]
Host
They also use your passion for the mission to justify working you harder and paying you less. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my job and what I get to do, but I'm old enough to see what's been done to me over the years. The rotating door of young employees who are worked to burnout and replaced, though I do feel bad for. It's a hard lesson to learn.
- [66:51]
Amanda Montell
Not to sound like a broken record, but we also did a Sounds like a Cult episode on Nonprofits years ago.
- [66:56]
Host
Wow.
- [66:57]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. So much labor exploitation justified with, you know, service of the mission. Yeah, that gets pretty dark too. I think we classified it as a watch your back, but one of my best friends works for a cancer nonprofit whose mission I really believe in. But I remember when I started fundraising for them, just the mantras alone to like, whip people up were very mlme.
- [67:20]
Host
To get people excited for the, like, very small amount of money they're actually making to do this job. Yeah, yeah. And the burnout. I get the burnout.
- [67:27]
Amanda Montell
Yeah.
- [67:28]
Host
Any. A comment under that was like, any job that refers to itself as your family, massive red flag.
- [67:35]
Amanda Montell
They will drop you in a second.
- [67:37]
Host
They don't care.
- [67:38]
Amanda Montell
The numbers suggest it.
- [67:40]
Host
They are not your actual family, nor one that came up after that was essential oils. We get it. You're a single mom, you want to work from home. But damn, you guys sure do drink the kool aid.
- [67:50]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, yeah. With the essential oils episode we did.
- [67:53]
Host
Yeah, I'm sure. Like, literally, I'm sure all of these are.
- [67:57]
Amanda Montell
I'm feeling very validated in our topic choices right now. Yes. There are so many essential oils mlms that have led to death and destruction.
- [68:07]
Host
You know the one where the one that almost got me in college was my friend's mom came and pitched it to us, but we had to put our hands on this electric device. Oh. And it would measure something about the electricity in our bodies. And then results would pop up as to, like, what essential oils we needed in our body. More of it's giving.
- [68:28]
Amanda Montell
Squeeze my cans.
- [68:29]
Host
It's very Squeeze my cans. Like the hand on the electrodes. And then I was told I needed more thieves and she wanted me to take like the thieves essential oil, put it in a capsule, swallow the whole thing whole. And she had told me too. She was like, yeah, I did it yesterday. I had a stomachache. I did it yesterday and I threw up violently because the essential oils knew that I needed to purge myself. I was like. I think it was just the fact that you. You followed that many essential oils.
- [68:57]
Amanda Montell
I love essential oils, but I also know what they can and cannot accomplish.
- [69:02]
Host
I. Yes, yes. Limit your expectations with essential oil.
- [69:07]
Amanda Montell
It's like, yeah, rub some lavender oil on your pulse points.
- [69:10]
Host
Pop off peppermint on my head during a headache. Yes. But the, like, really woo woo stuff that they say they can do. No, no. Okay. This one, I'm going to get yelled at in the comments, but I'm saying this as someone who is married to someone who went to this school, whose whole family Can I guess every. Yes. Guess.
- [69:29]
Amanda Montell
Texas A and M. Yes. Yes.
- [69:31]
Host
Oh, my God. Literally, they've all, like, my husband's entire family all went to the school. They all get married on campus. There's like, boots that they get given and, like, hand signals I'm not allowed to do and chance and Matt's like, you have to come to the midnight chant one time. And I'm like, what? Like, everything about it feels so culty. And then I tell him that. He's like, yeah, absolutely. It is.
- [69:54]
Amanda Montell
We have gotten so many requests for this one over the years. We're gonna have to do it eventually. I don't have personal experience with Texas A and M, but I do have personal experience with Princeton because my husband went there. And their culture is also very culty, I think, in kind of a live your life borderline, watch your back way. But they throw this monstrosity of a reunion every year. They call it reunions. They transform the campus into this, like, debauched, almost like music festival type thing.
- [70:25]
Host
Whoa.
- [70:25]
Amanda Montell
And it's so ritualistic, and it is fun, but as an outsider, I'm like, I'm prepared to do one weekend of this, and then I need to, like, take a cold shower.
- [70:37]
Host
Yes. Yes. That's exactly how I feel about a M. I've already been told that our son is gonna go there. Like, it's. It's already, like, it's written in the stars for all of our children.
- [70:44]
Amanda Montell
Okay. We have to heavy. Watch your back.
- [70:47]
Host
Yeah, it actually might be. Watch your back. I'm curious if anyone listening has gone there, because I would be curious to hear the case that it's not a cult.
- [70:55]
Amanda Montell
Look like we all. We all. We cult obsessed people at my podcast have a general rubric in our heads that we use to categorize every cult of the week.
- [71:10]
Host
Yeah.
- [71:11]
Amanda Montell
So if you have light, us versus them dynamics and some ritual and some mysticism, that's okay. But if there are severe exit costs and this group is like completely, completely taking over your headspace and your decision making in an outside group, that's when it's starting to inch along this cultish spectrum.
- [71:28]
Host
Yes. There's one that I added after we had this entire conversation. It made me think of it as someone who has both gone to them and worked at them. But I do think sleepaway camps might actually be.
- [71:41]
Amanda Montell
We literally. I. My two co hosts, Reese and Chelsea, just did a sleepaway camp episode.
- [71:46]
Host
Oh, my goodness. I'm sure, sure you just got a lot of really crazy stories, cuz.
- [71:50]
Amanda Montell
Oh, yeah.
- [71:50]
Host
I Think back at my time there. Like the. The language is fully different. You learn an entire code language. I know the rituals, the mysticism, the borderline offensive, like rituals that you do. Appropriative.
- [72:03]
Amanda Montell
Yes, yes, yes. I remember one of the cultiest things being like the ritualistic pranks, like at night or the last night of sleepway camp. You weren't allowed to fall asleep or like a prank might befall you. And I remember I wasn't feeling well and I fell asleep. When I woke up, like covered in and shaving cream and all that stuff, which is like whatever. It was a little. It was honestly a little. It was humiliating. But I do remember, like, I mean, of course I went to sleep with theater camp, which is like another layer. But we had so many chants. People cried so hardcore on the last day.
- [72:35]
Host
Yes.
- [72:36]
Amanda Montell
But I remember there was. There was this one song that I was reminded of recently by a listener of Sounds like a cult who also went to this camp. And the song went, we all have magic around us. The sun and the moon to guide us. It was like, so the mysticism. Yes, truly. And I was like, oh my God, that was so culty.
- [72:58]
Host
Yes, it is. Yes, it is very culty. I guess there's not really like the exit costs, but you do kind of get like, I always worked with the 13 year old girls and like if you didn't come back to camp or a lot of stuff would happen over the school year where they would ostracize one girl and then they'd all come back to camp and now you were ostracized. Like it actually did start having that kind of power dynamic. That was spooky.
- [73:22]
Amanda Montell
No, there are hierarchies for sure. I mean, I would have called my experience a live your life. Maybe it was a. Maybe it was a watch your back. Just because we were adolescents and everything's just like supercharged emotionally and.
- [73:34]
Host
Yeah.
- [73:34]
Amanda Montell
When you're that age. So like, be careful with kids. Yeah. Inherently any group with like a sense of hierarchy and power.
- [73:41]
Host
Like, yes.
- [73:42]
Amanda Montell
Involving kids might be a default watch your back, but Loki, the greatest days of my life.
- [73:49]
Host
Would I go back in an instant? Oh my God, I was drinking the kool Aid. So hard back.
- [73:54]
Amanda Montell
Definitely. If I. If the smell of my sleepway campus hit me right now, I would be 14 years old rehearsing for the final performance.
- [74:05]
Host
Just transported. Transported. I'm curious if anyone listening has anything to add to the list. Whether you went somewhere that you felt like was a, A little culty, joined an organization. I don't know, maybe a sorority or fraternity. I think those are up there too.
- [74:22]
Amanda Montell
Scroll through the Sounds like a cult back catalog. Maybe we've covered it.
- [74:24]
Host
There's definitely an episode. I mean how many episodes have you done at this point?
- [74:28]
Amanda Montell
Oh my God, 200.
- [74:29]
Host
Yeah, there's definitely there's going to be an episode that sounds like a quote about this a lot. You can also check out Cultish.
- [74:34]
Amanda Montell
Thank you.
- [74:35]
Host
And thank you so much for joining us.
- [74:37]
Amanda Montell
Oh my God, thank you so much. This was perfect. I've loved every second of it.
- [74:41]
Host
No, I've loved having your insight. I've wanted to do this episode for a while and we'll have you on.
- [74:46]
Amanda Montell
Sounds like a cold Yes.
- [74:47]
Host
I would be so happy to talk about truly anything. Yay. Love it. Okay, we will be back next week with another episode. You can join me then. And until then, stay curious. Bye guys.
- [74:57]
Amanda Montell
Bye.
- [74:58]
Sponsor Voice
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