Heavyweight Podcast Episode #60: "The Messenger"
Hosted by Jonathan Goldstein – Pushkin Industries, Released September 25, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of Heavyweight, Jonathan Goldstein untangles the decades-old mystery behind a short film called The Messenger—a World War II story that launched one young man’s dream and abruptly shattered it with a lie. Through a deeply personal investigation involving road trips, tough conversations, and reunions, Jonathan seeks the truth behind the film’s collapse and helps those involved confront the choices and consequences woven through their lives. At its heart, the episode explores how lies create walls—and whether it’s ever possible to dismantle them and move forward.

Key Discussion Points & Timeline

1. Michael’s Acting Dream and the Movie that Changed Everything

[02:46 – 08:38]

• Michael’s Backstory: Michael recalls his disappointment as a mediocre summer camp actor ("I wasn't very good." – Michael, [02:51]), always standing in the background, until an unexpected audition for a Cleveland film.
• Landing the Lead: The director, Quincy, sees promise in Michael, casting him not for his acting prowess but for his uncanny resemblance to the character in the storyboard.
  • "They were just like, you look like the kid we drew." – Michael, [04:23]
• The Messenger: A $100,000 short film based on the true story of young WWII telegram messenger Thomas E. Jones, whose delivery of Japan’s surrender message was delayed by a traffic stop.
• Rising Hopes: Amidst industry attention and rumors of meetings with Tom Hanks, Michael imagines a future as an actor.

2. The Staggering Disappointment: Exposure of the Lie

[08:38 – 11:16]

• Cancelled Premiere: Michael is crushed to learn (from a tearful Quincy) that the film will never premiere; Quincy had lied.
• The Big Fabrication: The actor playing "Thomas E. Jones" in post-film interviews was a random elderly man posing as the real (and very much alive) Jones.
  • "It seems Quincy had just found a random old man, slipped him into a gown, strapped him into a hospital bed, and christened him Thomas E. Jones." – Jonathan Goldstein, [09:16]
• Ripple Effects: The real Jones family finds out, leading to the movie’s cancellation and public embarrassment for everyone involved.
• Michael's Reflection: The debacle forces Michael to reevaluate his dreams, though it sows the seeds for a future career in TV writing.

3. Unraveling the Truth: A Search for Motive and Accountability

[11:16 – 20:49]

• Lingering Questions: Michael never understood Quincy’s risk—"Why did you lie?”—and seeks closure, prompting Jonathan to help.
• Contacting the Jones Family: Jonathan interviews Nancy (Thomas’s widow), Victoria (daughter), and Mike (son).
  • The Joneses are outraged by both the fake "deathbed" and the fabricated pancake-diner subplot, which falsely depicted Thomas as a slacker.
    • "We said, no, this is altering history." – Victoria Jones, [18:51]
• Attempting to Reach Quincy: Quincy refuses to talk—"I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore, he writes, and that's the last I hear from Quincy." – Jonathan Goldstein, [19:59]
• Showbiz Connections: A fortuitous chain-of-contact leads Jonathan and Michael to Pat Croce, the film’s producer.

4. Pat Croce’s Perspective: Betrayal, Growth, and Letting Go

[22:26 – 27:01]

• Pat’s Involvement: After a request by his pirate-loving friend Reef (Quincy's father), Pat enthusiastically backs the project, believing Quincy’s story unequivocally.
• Feeling Betrayed: When the truth comes out, Pat is incensed at Quincy’s duplicity and the damage to his own reputation:
  • "He's lucky he didn't cross my path or else he wouldn't be walking." – Pat Croce, [25:50]
• Spiritual Growth: A decade and a cancer diagnosis later, Pat claims peace with the past, seeing regret as pointless:
  • "The past to me is smoke off the end of my cigar." – Pat Croce, [24:32]
• The Door Opens: Pat offers to reach out to Quincy, who finally agrees to talk—with Michael, not Jonathan.

5. The Confrontation: Michael and Quincy Speak After Nearly 20 Years

[29:41 – 39:36]

• Reunion Call: An awkward but honest video chat begins, filled first with stories and laughter—"I couldn't drive stick..." – Michael, [30:44]—then turns serious.
• Quincy’s Shame: Quincy admits to years of guilt, saying, "I failed every single person. And then I became national news." – Quincy, [31:26]
• Why the Lie? Quincy says he genuinely could not find Thomas Jones, was misled by erroneous death certificates, and, obsessed with a cinematic ending, justified the ruse in his mind:
  • "I couldn't get away from that story." – Quincy, [34:20]
  • He cast a tour guide as Jones, never imagining the blowback.
• Pattern of Exaggeration: Quincy reveals a history of compulsive lying rooted in class insecurity, dating back to his elite prep school days:
  • "I felt this like, sense of just like always needing to exaggerate." – Quincy, [35:26]
• Personal Reckoning: The scandal forced Quincy to break free from lying—“That was the most important lesson, full stop period of my life." – Quincy, [36:26]

6. Unexpected Gifts and Letting Go

[37:01 – 39:51]

• Michael’s Gratitude: Michael credits The Messenger experience for showing him his path, leading to his career and even meeting his wife:
  • "I never got to just thank you...[that] invitation you gave me to be on set, changed the entire direction of my life." – Michael, [37:21]
• Quincy’s Relief: Quincy, surprised by forgiveness, is deeply moved—"I was convinced that it would ruin everyone's life because that's what I was feeling at that moment." – Quincy, [38:10]
• Pat's Words: A recent conversation with Pat Croce ("let it go") brings Quincy to tears, a final push toward healing.

7. Life Goes On: Art, Lies, and Second Chances

[39:51 – End (~41:34)]

• On Set in New York: Jonathan visits Michael and his wife on the set of a new film, reflecting on the power of shared illusion in film and storytelling.
  • "It’s all a lie, of course, but one that we’re all in on." – Jonathan Goldstein, [41:28]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "My mom says your singing is awful."
  – Anonymous camper to Michael, on early acting struggles [02:53]
• "They were just like, you look like the kid we drew."
  – Michael on getting cast [04:23]
• "It was all a fraud. And the guy who thought I had talent, also a fraud."
  – Michael, on the sting of betrayal [10:35]
• "We said, no, this is altering history."
  – Victoria Jones, on her family's reaction [18:51]
• "The past to me is smoke off the end of my cigar."
  – Pat Croce, on moving past regret [24:32]
• "I couldn't get away from that story."
  – Quincy, on his obsession with the film’s ending [34:20]
• "It took a lot of weight off my shoulders that I didn’t have to make every story 10% better."
  – Quincy, on breaking his lying habit [36:26]
• "I never got to just thank you....the invitation you gave me to be on set changed the entire direction of my life."
  – Michael to Quincy [37:21]
• "It's all a lie, of course, but one that we're all in on."
  – Jonathan, on the magic of movies [41:28]

Conclusion

The Messenger is a story of ambition, self-sabotage, and personal growth. The episode takes listeners on an emotional journey: from a young actor’s hopes, through public scandal and career devastation, to hard-won maturity, reconciliation, and gratitude. Through candid conversations, it dissects the ripple effects of a single decision while revealing how storytelling—honest and otherwise—shapes lives. Forgiveness, Jonathan finds, is sometimes the greatest message of all.