#63 Jasmin

Summary

Heavyweight – Episode #63: Jasmin

Host: Stevie Lane (with Jonathan Goldstein)
Podcast: Heavyweight (Pushkin Industries)
Release Date: October 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode centers on Jasmin, a successful young actor who still wrestles with a pivotal and painful moment from her high school years in Springfield, Oregon: being named homecoming queen—only to have her moment "stolen" at the dance. Through interviews, confrontations, and overdue conversations, Jasmin seeks closure on whether the painful incident was a simple mistake, intentional exclusion, or a subtle act of racism. The episode explores identity, the trauma of racial microaggressions, the slipperiness of memory, and the long arc toward self-acceptance and healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growing Up as an Outsider (03:21–06:03)

• Jasmin’s background: Raised in Springfield, Oregon; one of very few Black students in her school and the only person of color in her white family.
• Experience of racism: Regular microaggressions and outright racism (“You are a credit to your race,” “My dad wouldn’t like you, he doesn’t like Black people,” “Mm, tastes like black cherry” after a stage kiss).
• Family silence: Race was never discussed at home, compounding Jasmin's isolation and sense of ugliness.

“I don’t think I even heard anyone in my family say the word black. It almost felt like a bad word, kind of. I just always felt so ugly, honestly, like, just ugly and frizzy and not shiny.”
— Jasmin (05:42)

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2. The Homecoming Build-Up and "Movie Moment" Expectations (06:03–09:50)

• Announcement shock: Jasmin unexpectedly named Homecoming Queen alongside the most popular boy, Jacob King.
• Anticipation: Jasmin fantasized about the quintessential coming-of-age, movie-style moment where everything changed for her.
• Deep longing: The coronation seemed to offer a promise of inclusion, beauty, and worth she hadn’t experienced.

“I thought that they would call my name and it would be my movie moment... Maybe he would even whisper in my ear, ‘I’ve always been in love with you.’”
— Jasmin (09:00)

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3. The Scene of the Incident: Sudden Displacement (09:55–13:16)

• At the dance: Jasmin prepares for her moment as Queen, only for the announcer to name "Whitney" instead.
• Shock and disbelief: Jasmin, confused and hurt, runs out and cries alone—no one speaks about it.
• Lasting pain: The moment remains unresolved and returns often in Jasmin's mind.

“And it was really like a record scratch, like in my head. I was like, wait, what?”
— Jasmin (10:24)

“Over the years, she’s developed two possible theories. First, was one Black girl mistaken for another?... Or...was the announcement rigged?”
— Stevie Lane (11:18)

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4. Theories and Unanswered Questions (11:18–14:27)

• Two main theories:
  1. It was a mix-up—one Black girl confused for another.
  2. It was a deliberate switch—maybe if there could only be one Black queen, it should be the popular one (Whitney).
• Oscillation: Jasmin swings between believing it was accidental and suspecting racial malice.
• Long-term impact: Jasmin thinks about the incident “once a week for the last 728 weeks.”

“Is the why that there could only be one Black girl at the top? Is the why that they hated me for some reason? ... Both of those feel intense. And so it's like, where, where to land.”
— Jasmin (13:21)

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5. Investigating the Past: Calls with the "Popular Girls" (17:10–21:54)

• Stevie interviews: The "popular" girls mostly don’t remember the incident or don't return calls; Jacob King (the king) withdraws from responding.
• Revelation: Only Whitney, as senior class president (and princess), actually ran the event, potentially holding the answers Jasmin seeks.
• Empathy and Shared Experience: Both Jasmin and Whitney wrote/experienced essays about growing up Black in Springfield, both with absent Black fathers and white mothers, yet neither knew the other's struggles.

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6. The Confrontation & Reunion: Face to Face with Whitney (24:29–32:46)

• Nervous reunion: Jasmin and Whitney meet as adults, both acknowledging past pain and sharing their own stories of survival.
• Whitney’s side: Remembers intense stress organizing the dance, lacks memory of any announcement mistake, adamant she wouldn’t have accepted a crown she didn’t win.

“I don't remember it. ... If they called my name, I would have been horrified... I would have went somewhere and been like, hey, like, that was the wrong name. Can we, like, reset?”
— Whitney (28:46, 29:08)

• Possible culprit: They consider DJ Sip, the DJ who had a paper with names—possibly mixing up queen and princess.
• Skepticism vs. Acceptance: Jasmin still can’t shake the possibility of racism, despite Whitney’s insistence otherwise.

“I feel that I will never relinquish the possibility that there was foul play. ... I 100% believe it is a possibility that someone did do something racist... That just is possible.”
— Jasmin (32:05)

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7. Attempts at Resolution and the Limits of Closure (34:22–39:14)

• Investigation outcome:
  • DJ Sip remembers little—though the teacher corroborates there was shock in the room and it likely was a mistake.
• Ongoing doubt: Jasmin struggles to “choose” a non-cynical worldview after years of microaggressions, in both life and career.
• Internal conflict: Knowing she may never be sure is itself a wound.

“It's completely crazy making because Jasmine can never know if a rejection is because of her performance or her skin color. It's like with the homecoming story, Jasmine will never know if it was DJ Sip or something way worse.”
— Stevie Lane (35:33)

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8. Final Reflections: Acceptance and Healing (38:32–40:50)

• Contrasting paths: Whitney found community and self-confidence in a diverse college setting; Jasmin dove straight into Hollywood, facing renewed doubts about belonging.
• The gift of acknowledgment: Ultimately, Jasmin receives a symbolic crown from Stevie—lime green and sparkly—which lets her experience the moment of validation she never got.

“Wow, this feels awesome. I finally got my crown. This is definitely doing something.”
— Jasmin (40:33)

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9. Memorable Quotes

• “No one came up to Jasmine after to say sorry. No one even came up to her to say hey, that was weird, right? ... One Black girl was substituted for another and that went largely uncommented on and unapologized for because no one seemed to think it was a big enough deal.”
  — Stevie Lane (39:14)

• “I don't know, it's like I'm meeting the world with, like, a knife out.”
  — Jasmin (36:30)

• “At a certain point, you have to make a choice, and I want to make that choice. It's just really hard.”
  — Jasmin (36:07)

• “I mean, I think you’re the homecoming queen.”
  — Stevie Lane (38:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Jasmin’s Background: 03:21 – 06:03
• Homecoming Buildup & Shock: 06:14 – 10:24
• Incident & Theories: 10:24 – 13:51
• Life Since Homecoming: 13:51 – 14:27
• Calls to "Popular Girls": 17:10 – 21:54
• Confrontation with Whitney: 24:29 – 32:46
• Search for Answers (DJ/Teacher): 32:46 – 34:22
• Jasmin’s Reflection on Rejection: 34:22 – 36:30
• Gift of the Crown & Emotional Resolution: 40:00 – 40:50

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Memorable Moments

• Jasmin’s vulnerability: Her lifelong hurt, oscillating between the need for answers and realizing some wounds can't be healed by truth alone.
• Whitney’s empathy and boundaries: The shared but differently processed pain of two Black women who never got to connect when it mattered most.
• The lime green crown: A tangible, healing moment of reclamation.

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Tone

Intimate, candid, often bittersweet but threaded with humor. The episode is marked by Jasmin’s whip-smart vulnerability, Whitney’s gentle candor, and Stevie Lane’s openhearted, gently insistent investigative style.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

Heavyweight #63 is a searching, honest inquiry into memory, racism, and the deep need for acknowledgment. Whether you lived a similar moment or have ever struggled to move past a formative wound, this episode offers a look at why these stories linger, how identity shapes what we remember, and what it means to finally claim your own crown.

Transcript

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pushkin. Stevie Lane.

[Stevie Lane]

Hello, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I thought your generation doesn't abide by telephone calls.

[Stevie Lane]

When my name popped up, did you think this was an emergency?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is it an emergency?

[Stevie Lane]

It is sort of an emergency. It's a story emergency.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, that is an emergency.

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. You need my help?

[Stevie Lane]

No, I. Actually, I don't need your help. I have a story for you today.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you need my help listening to it? Well, why don't you just ask me to listen to your story?

[Stevie Lane]

Will you please listen to my story?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm gonna say no.

[Stevie Lane]

What?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yes, of course. You're gonna press the play button.

[Stevie Lane]

I'm gonna start it right now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

There.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You.

[Stevie Lane]

From Pushkin Industries. I'm Stevie Layne, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Jasmine, right after the break.

[Jasmine]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Kal Penn.

[Stevie Lane]

I'm Ed Helms.

[Kal Penn]

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[Michael Lewis]

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[Stevie Lane]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

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[Stevie Lane]

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[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

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[Stevie Lane]

There are moments in life that unfold like a movie. Moments we replay over and over in our heads.

[Whitney]

Hello.

[Stevie Lane]

How are you?

[Jasmine]

I'm good. How are you?

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine has a moment like that, a pivotal scene in the story of her life. And it's a scene that takes place where many pivotal movie moments do at a high school dance 14 years ago. It isn't as pig bloody as the prom in Carrie, nor as Teen Wolfy as the one from Teen Wolf, but it's every bit as cinematic. And to fully understand that night of spaghetti strap dresses and party rock anthem on gymnasium speakers, I have to zoom out and start with the setting where the dance took place. The city where Jasmine grew up, Springfield, Oregon.

[Jasmine]

There's Hardly any black people. And in, like, every class I was in, it would be just me and, like, one or two other girls.

[Stevie Lane]

Census estimates put the population of black residents in Springfield at around 1%.

[Jasmine]

Oregon was one of the first states to outlaw slavery, but not because they believed that black people were worthy of not being slaves, because they didn't want black people in the state at all. So they outlawed slavery in order to keep black folks from being there. So there's just this ignorance and this, like, odd energy there.

[Stevie Lane]

By odd energy, Jasmine is talking about the unapologetic racism she experienced all the time from a very young age. Like when Jasmine was seven and told by her friend that her friend's dad wouldn't like Jasmine because he qu didn't like black people. Or when in a high school drama class, everyone was instructed to write each other nice notes. Jasmine reads me one. I love your positive attitude, and I believe it's an exception to your ethnicity. You are a credit to your race. Or when Jasmine was in a school play and had a stage kiss with her scene partner, who was white, and.

[Jasmine]

We kissed, and then he goes, mm, tastes like black cherry. Like that kind of stuff all the time, to the point that, you know, you just laugh and you're like, ha, ha, ha. But don't know why it makes you feel a certain way, because everyone is laughing. Like, even your close friends, because they also, like, do think it's funny. I think we actually sometimes even participated in the jokes at our own expense because it's like, if you can get ahead of it, then it won't hurt as bad.

[Stevie Lane]

How is it talked about in your family?

[Jasmine]

You know, it just wasn't. And we always, like, prided ourselves on being a family that, like, can talk about things, but race was never brought up.

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine's dad is black, but they didn't have much of a relationship growing up. She was raised by her mom, who was white. Among her white aunts and white uncles and white cousins, Jasmine was the only person of color within her family.

[Jasmine]

I don't think I even heard anyone in my family say the word black. It almost felt like a bad word, kind of. I just always felt so ugly, honestly, like, just ugly and frizzy and not shiny.

[Stevie Lane]

It was a feeling that followed Jasmine all the way until senior year, all the way until homecoming.

[Jasmine]

So, you know, it's September, and it's time to vote for homecoming queen, and it's, like, such a big deal and a marker of popularity and beauty and worth and importance.

[Stevie Lane]

So this was, like, a big Deal. Like, do you remember the seniors that were king and queen in previous years?

[Jasmine]

Well, yeah, I think it was Jessica Ray and James Quinn the year before. Yeah, like it's a thing.

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine was sitting in class when the PA system came on. Everyone was listening for who would be named homecoming royalty first. The homecoming court was announced, princes and.

[Jasmine]

Princesses, and I'm pretty sure they saved the queen for last. And they said my name and I was in shock. Like, not only did they announce me as homecoming queen, but Jacob King, who was like the most popular boy all American football player. He was homecoming king. I was like, how is it him and me? And I remember being like, oh my God, like, did they mess up?

[Stevie Lane]

The homecoming queen was usually someone popular and cool. Two things Jasmine says that she wasn't in high school. She was a self proclaimed theater nerd from a conservative Christian household who was never invited to a single house party or asked out on a date. But it wasn't a mess up or a prank. After the announcement, kids came up and congratulated her. Maybe Jasmine had been wrong about how her classmates saw her the rest of the day. Jasmine walked through the hallways as though floating through a dream. A few days later, Jasmine's queendom was announced at the homecoming football game. There on the field, Jasmine received a sash and a bouquet. The Springfield Times came to take her picture. But the thing Jasmine was most excited for was the homecoming dance. The night of the dance, Jasmine's mom helped her with her hair and makeup. She met up at a friend's house beforehand to have dinner, Martinelli's and Mac and cheese and get ready. Jasmine wore her coolest outfit, a short black strapless dress with lime green feather earrings, lime green half leggings, and lime green fingerless gloves. And in case you're thinking, geez, that's a lot of lime green, I'd like to remind you that this was high school in 2011. My favorite outfit was a lime green skirt with a lime green tank top. I had a lime green cell phone and lime green floaty flip flops. Lime green was cool. Okay. And Jasmine looked cool on her way to the dance. What were your expectations for the night? What did you think was gonna happen?

[Jasmine]

I thought that they would call my name and it would be my movie moment. Like everyone would clap and shout and a spotlight would hit the center of the room and I would make my way toward Jacob King and maybe he would even whisper in my ear, I've always been in love with you. And then, you know, everyone would slowly like, d around us. And it would be like, wow, you've always been so beautiful and cool.

[Stevie Lane]

Oh, Jasmine, you really, you had big expectations for the night.

[Jasmine]

I really did. I mean, I grew up watching like a Cinderella story and what a girl wants. And that's how they all end, you know? Yeah. I thought it would change everything. In fact, it did not.

[Stevie Lane]

And here is the moment that's been plaguing Jasmine for years.

[Jasmine]

I don't know if they cut the music or if they just turned it down and they announced. And now it's time for our homecoming dance. My heart's beating so fast, you know, my stomach is like about to fall out of my butt. I'm so excited. And then they go, our homecoming king, Jacob. And everyone's like, woohoo.

[Stevie Lane]

Clapping and our homecoming queen, Whitney. Whitney.

[Jasmine]

And it was really like a record scratch, like in my head. I was like, wait, what?

[Stevie Lane]

Whitney was one of the few other black girls in Jasmine's grade.

[Jasmine]

And I thought I misheard and I. But I was kind of frozen and I'm just looking around and it's like the room is spinning and I'm feeling crazy and I'm like, oh my God. Oh, that's just happened.

[Stevie Lane]

Overcome, humiliated, Jasmine ran out of the gym to the courtyard where she collapsed at a table and cried. When eventually she dried her eyes and returned to the dance, no one said anything to her about it, so she just did what everyone else was doing. She danced, she talked to friends, she went home.

[Jasmine]

I don't know. I don't know what happened.

[Stevie Lane]

And this is what Jasmine has wondered ever since why Whitney's name was called instead of hers. Over the years, she's developed two possible theories. First, was one black girl mistaken for another? That's what Jasmine's best friend from high school, Danika, has always thought. Danika is also biracial and remembers the moment the wrong name was called. To her. It didn't seem that crazy that at their high school, one black girl might be confused for another. I think that we were all a little bit interchangeable, she tells me. But then there's Jasmine's second theory. An even worse possibility. Could it be, Jasmine wonders that the announcement had been rigged. Whitney was an athlete, she was well liked, and she was their senior class president. In other words, Whitney was the popular black girl. She was part of the tight knit group of popular girls in Jasmine's grade.

[Jasmine]

Like she was considered. Like she was a pretty black girl and always straightened her hair. Like I used to remember thinking, when does that girl sleep? Because she is in every single honors class and she's always wearing makeup and she straightens her hair every day. There's no way she gets more than three hours of sleep a night. Like, it just blew my mind.

[Stevie Lane]

In many ways, Whitney was the more obvious choice for homecoming queen, which is why it felt to Jasmine like some secret decision had been made. Like, if we're going to have a black homecoming queen, it's going to be the popular black girl, not you after all. It didn't feel like a mistake in my memory.

[Jasmine]

No one was looking at me like, wait, what? Like it felt like everyone in the room wasn't on something I wasn't in on. Like there had been a consensus reached that on the day it would be Whitney and not me. Because no one else seemed shocked.

[Stevie Lane]

But Jasmine never found out what happened that night or why.

[Jasmine]

Was it a mix up? Or like, is the why that there could only be one black girl at the top? Is the why that they hated me for some reason? It's like even in this moment, throughout this conversation, I've oscillated between, okay, yeah, no, of course it was totally an accident, and fuck that, no it wasn't. And both of those feel intense. And so it's like, where, where to land.

[Stevie Lane]

It's been 14 years since homecoming, but Jasmine thinks about it often. Like once a week for the last 728 weeks. Not that anyone's counting. Jasmine is an actor and a successful one with major roles in Yellowjackets and the leftovers. In 2024, she was included in Forbes 30 under 30 list for Hollywood and entertainment. She has a partner, a beloved cat and dog, and a news podcast for the queer community. By every metric, she's living a full and happy life. And yet it's a moment she returns to.

[Jasmine]

I just want to know why Jasmine.

[Stevie Lane]

Says the popular girls ran the homecoming committee. They might have the answer. And Jasmine is still Facebook friends with a few and can reach out. Sounds easy, right?

[Jasmine]

No, it doesn't. I'm still scared of these girls. You know what I mean? Like, the thought of that makes me feel nauseous.

[Stevie Lane]

But that's what I'm here for. To walk up to the cool kids at their lunch table so Jasmine doesn't have to. After the break, the popular girls.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Stevie Lane]

It's still damaging all of us.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

Listen to Revisionist History the Alabama Anywhere you get podcasts. Binge the entire 7 episode series early and ad free with a Pushkin plus subscription. Head to the Revisionist History show page on Apple Podcasts or Pushkin FM plus to sign up.

[Stevie Lane]

Popular Girls When I Google the names Jasmine gives me, I find photos of them from high school. There are a lot of high ponytails and straight toothed smiles. There are a lot of sports action shots mid spike in volleyball or dribbling down the basketball court. There's a lot of eyeliner. These are girls who knew how to dress and would never be caught dead in head to toe lime green. Which, yeah, fine, I'll admit it was never that cool. And the names. They just sound like the names of popular girls. Ashley, Bailey, Stephanie, Allie, Katelyn with a Y. Cassidy with a K. But the thing about the popular kids, Their power is weakened with time outside of high school. A decade even beyond college, they get much less intimidating. Or this is what I'm telling myself as I clear my throat and make the calls. Hi, I'm calling for Ally. Hi Stephanie. Hi Cassidy. My name is. I'm trying to reach Caitlin.

[Jasmine]

Who?

[Stevie Lane]

The story is actually about homecoming. A story I'm working on about homecoming. I'm sure this is sort of a strange message to receive. You're having a good day. Take Care. Bye. Most of my messages aren't returned. The couple of women who do call me back say they remember Jasmine winning and the announcement at the game, but not the incident at the dance. So I phoned Jacob King, the homecoming king. He's at work and says he can talk later, but then texts me minutes after backing out. I text asking if he remembers the mix up and see the three dots typing. Then the three dots stop. Haha, you were typing and then stopped typing. I write, the three dots reappear and this time he hit send. I don't have a memory of that. And then like everyone else, he stops answering me.

[Jasmine]

Doesn't that point to something like what are you defensive of? If there's nothing to be defensive of, it's true.

[Stevie Lane]

And maybe they all have something to hide, but maybe they just don't like the implication that a racist mistake was made.

[Jasmine]

Right? Yeah, if only someone would just like talk the talk.

[Stevie Lane]

And one popular girl does. Bailey and Bailee talks the talk to me about a key piece of information. The popular girls I've been calling, they weren't actually part of planning homecoming as Jasmine had thought. That job fell to one person, the senior class president, AKA Whitney. The very same Whitney who was pronounced queen at the dance that she apparently planned. And not only that, it turns out Whitney was a princess on the homecoming court, the homecoming queen runner up, a lady in waiting who dethrones the queen. Was this an act of regicide? Or at least the high school version of it? At this point, it looks like the only person who might have the answers Jasmine's looking for is Whitney. Jasmine says asking Whitney feels scary, even scarier in some ways than asking the other popular girls. Because Whitney was a popular black girl, Jasmine, if only in her own mind, often felt pitted against her, comparing herself to Whitney coming up short, which the whole homecoming debacle only reinforced. But recently, sitting at home late one night, Jasmine googled Whitney's name. What popped up was an article from the Guardian that Whitney wrote in 2020 Eight years after high school. And the subject of the article Whitney wrote was what it was like growing up black in Springfield. The racist jabs at school, the comments about her hair, the jokes she made at her own expense, and how confusing it was to navigate alone. There were parts that felt lifted out of Jasmine's own life. Like Jasmine, Whitney's family didn't talk about race. Like Jasmine, Whitney had a white mom and a black dad who wasn't home. From the article, Jasmine learned that Whitney's father was incarcerated for most of her.

[Jasmine]

Childhood and that she would visit him weekly and was dealing with this very heavy, very adult thing. I had these stories about her and these assumptions. Meanwhile, she was fighting her own battles. How sad that we never. That I never knew that and that we never connected on that.

[Stevie Lane]

Hmm. But now, Jasmine wonders, outside of the context of high school and popular groups and homecoming and Springfield, maybe they can. Maybe Jasmine can ask her what happened that night, addressing her not as the girl she'd felt pitted against, but as a woman with a shared past. After the break, Whitney.

[Whitney]

Foreign.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at OOKLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch Super Mobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security and seamless satellite coverage. With Super Mobile, your performance, security and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business. Supercharged. Learn [e-mail] Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers and security features. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data1H 2025 Malcolm Gladwell here this season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. The amount of damage this man did is incalculable.

[Stevie Lane]

It's still damaging all of us.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

Listen to Revisionist History the Alabama Anywhere you get podcasts. Binge the entire 7 episode series early and ad free with a Pushkin plus subscription. Head to the Revisionist History show page on Apple Podcasts or Pushkin FM plus to sign up.

[Stevie Lane]

When I reach out to Whitney, I tell her about this homecoming project, how Jasmine has questions about that night. I expect that, like the other popular girls, she won't want to talk. But she wants to help Jasmine, so she agrees. Whitney now lives in Portland, Oregon, where she works as a creative producer and it Just so happens that in about a week Jasmine will be home for a visit. So we meet up at a small Airbnb I book for the reunion. Hi. Hi. Whitney and Jasmine hug in greeting.

[Jasmine]

Hi. You look great. You do too. You're beautiful.

[Stevie Lane]

They get settled on two chairs facing each other. Whitney has her feet up on her seat. Jasmine is smiling. This is crazy.

[Jasmine]

I feel like the last time we saw each other was high school, probably graduation day.

[Stevie Lane]

Yeah, there was a 10 year reunion, but Jasmine didn't go. Neither did Whitney, even though she was supposed to organize it. Apparently that's the job of the senior class president, which if you ask me, falls a little outside the term for an elected high school official.

[Whitney]

I promised an open bar. I ran on that.

[Jasmine]

You promised? Who was going to pay for that?

[Whitney]

Yeah, that's a great question, but like at 17, you don't think about that.

[Stevie Lane]

But then Whitney spent the next 10 years thinking about it, stressing about disappointing people if she couldn't deliver.

[Whitney]

Someone tweeted me five years later and said we didn't forget. I was like, I'm going to barf.

[Jasmine]

That's really funny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Stevie Lane]

They both seem a little nervous. And so at first, Jasmine tries to make Whitney feel comfortable. She tells Whitney how much she liked her article. They trade horror stories from high school.

[Whitney]

Sophomore year, two of my friends came into my math class and were like, so we've decided we're going to initiate you as our black friend. It's literally going to wrap you in toilet paper and roll you down a hill.

[Jasmine]

What?

[Stevie Lane]

Yes.

[Whitney]

It's insane, crazy, crazy.

[Jasmine]

And I'm. It hurt. But I also, there wasn't even space to allow ourselves to be hurt because it was so constant.

[Stevie Lane]

And for Whitney, it wasn't just the racism. Whitney says she came from a poor family. She grew up picking up food boxes, getting her Thanksgiving meals from the school. Whitney had to work hard to fit into that tight knit group of middle class white girls. When she was going to school every day without breakfast, Whitney says she acted like a happy go lucky kid when in fact, from a really young age she was in survival mode.

[Whitney]

Like I remember being in third grade, being like, I can't even imagine high school because I'll probably die before then. Like there's no way I'm actually ever.

[Jasmine]

Gonna make it there.

[Stevie Lane]

Eventually, Jasmine brings up homecoming.

[Jasmine]

I want to get into the stuff.

[Stevie Lane]

And Whitney without hesitation is game.

[Whitney]

I'm sad.

[Jasmine]

Let's do it. Like, I've just wanted to know your version of what happened.

[Stevie Lane]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

So just to like Go back. Like, I remember the football game where it was, like, announced, so, like, we all knew you had already won. I thought at that point, yeah, yeah, right, yeah. And then the night of the dance, I don't remember a lot, except I was really stressed because I was planning it.

[Stevie Lane]

As class president, Whitney was in charge of everything. Picking out the crowns, selling the tickets, buying the decorations, setting up the gym, all largely by herself. So when Whitney thinks about homecoming, what she remembers is how stressed out she was leading up to the dance. But the night of the dance itself.

[Whitney]

I want to be honest, I don't really remember the night, like, at all. Like, not even. I remember, like, getting everything, like, set up, trying to make sure everything was, like, in place. Like the people working who are going to take the tickets. But the actual, like that moment, the.

[Stevie Lane]

Moment Jasmine remembers so clearly Whitney's name being announced instead of her own.

[Whitney]

I don't remember it.

[Stevie Lane]

If homecoming was a pivotal scene in the movie of Jasmine's life, one she's played over and over until the tape has worn thin. For Whitney, it's been taped over, but she says she's sure that if she was announced as homecoming queen, she never would have gone up and accepted the crown or joined Jacob King for a dance.

[Whitney]

If they called my name, I would have been horrified because I wanted everything to, like, just like, go well. So, like, I would have been absolutely horrified and I would have went somewhere and been like, hey, like, that was wrong name. Can we, like, reset?

[Stevie Lane]

Is there a chance that you would have been so, like, this night has to go smoothly that if you were called, you would just be like, okay, I'm just gonna dance. You know what I mean? Like, keep it moving.

[Jasmine]

No, what happened to the crown? Did they put it on your head?

[Whitney]

No. Cause I didn't win. I already knew I didn't win, so I wasn't up there. Yeah, put that crown on me.

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine has been waiting 14 years to ask what happened that night. And getting such a non answer is a letdown. But if Jasmine is disappointed, she isn't showing it. As they keep talking, though, Whitney reminds Jasmine of another key player from that night. Someone who is at the center of everything. And by everything, I mean the dance floor.

[Whitney]

Do you remember who announced the names? Like, was it the dj?

[Jasmine]

I don't, I don't remember.

[Whitney]

I feel like it was the dj.

[Stevie Lane]

One of Whitney's many party planning responsibilities was hiring the dj, a man named DJ Sip. She was his point person for the whole event. And Whitney thinks that because she was Runner up. Her name would have been on the list of students on the homecoming court given to DJ Sip at the dance. So when it came time to announce the queen, I feel like he just.

[Whitney]

Saw my name and got confused. Like, we had been, like, talking, right, for, like, weeks. I helped set him up, and I wonder if he just, like, saw my name and was like, oh, like, just read mine first.

[Stevie Lane]

In other words, Whitney is saying she thinks it was just an accident and an innocent one, not a racist one. Jasmine is skeptical, but even the mistake.

[Jasmine]

I'm like, okay, this man, DJ Sip. Like, I'm imagining it was a white dj.

[Whitney]

No, it wasn't DJ Sip.

[Jasmine]

Look, we grew up in Springfield.

[Whitney]

Yeah, you're right.

[Stevie Lane]

Certainly could be a white guy.

[Whitney]

He was, like, a big black guy.

[Stevie Lane]

And anyway, Whitney says DJ Sip wouldn't have even known that Jasmine is black. He'd never met her before. She'd have been nothing more than a name on a slip of paper.

[Jasmine]

Okay, so maybe he really did just read our names wrong.

[Stevie Lane]

And Is that how you feel right now? You're like. Like, do you, like, just to ask the blunt question, like, do you believe that that's what happened?

[Jasmine]

Yeah, I. I have no reason not to believe Whitney.

[Whitney]

Well, here's the thing.

[Stevie Lane]

Whitney jumps in to say plainly what she's been trying to say politely.

[Whitney]

I didn't do shit. So just to be clear, I didn't do shit. And, like, I know, like, I didn't do anything maliciously. I don't think anyone would do anything.

[Jasmine]

Maliciously that I don't believe. I feel that I will never relinquish the possibility that there was foul play. Like, there will forever be a part of me that's like, some. Because at the end of the day, we did grow up with these people who, like, called us racist names and, like, said all kinds of shit we can't even remember. So I 100% believe it is a possibility that someone did do something racist, whether it was to hurt me or not. Like, that just is possible.

[Stevie Lane]

Outside, it's gone from dusk to dark. It's time to go. And we say our goodbyes in the days after the conversation. I do reach out to DJ Sip to see if he made a DJ slip, but DJ Sip tells me he has no recollection of that specific homecoming. He does tons of school gigs every year. He does say that, as Whitney remembered, the names are usually provided to him on a piece of paper. He doesn't think he'd read the wrong name, though he can't be sure. I also finally get a hold of a teacher who was there who remembers the mix up. She says contrary to how Jasmine remembered it, everyone seemed shocked. Whitney in particular. She also thinks that, yes, the names of all the students on the court were written on a piece of paper, but whether it was the DJs innocent misread or someone's not so innocent. Ms. Right, we can't say for certain. I'm not sure where it leaves us. We still don't have a definitive answer. And in the absence of that, what we have is two women who shared many similar experiences in the same town where they both grew up with two opposite takeaways from the night of homecoming. One who knows that it must be about race, and the other who thinks that in this particular scenario, it just wasn't. So a few weeks later, I reach out to Jasmine to see what she took away from the conversation with Whitney.

[Jasmine]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Stevie Lane]

Toggling between what Whitney is trying to suggest to her and what she knows, that feels like a familiar place for her to be. Jasmine tells me about a number of auditions she's been on lately. Big opportunities.

[Jasmine]

And my manager, my team are so excited. And I'm like, guys, they're gonna cast a white girl. I've been right every time. But my manager is like, so tired of me saying that. And she's like, you're speaking that into existence. Like, you need to come into these opportunities and spaces, like, open and give it your all and, like, prove to them that you're the one.

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine says she can see her manager's point. Assuming it's about race and going in with that defeatist attitude, it isn't helping her. But at the same time, auditioning over and over for roles she has no chance of getting, it's frustrating and demoralizing.

[Jasmine]

Especially in that industry where it's just like rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. I want to be rejected because my acting wasn't strong enough or my vibe wasn't right. Not because they're like, well, we decided to go with a white girl.

[Stevie Lane]

And it's completely crazy making because Jasmine can never know if a rejection is because of her performance or her skin color. It's like with the homecoming story, Jasmine will never know if it was DJ SIP or something way worse. Whitney believes it was an accident. And so it's like she's asking Jasmine to see it outside of racial lines. Like, she's saying, can't this just be a mistake? The kind of mistake that could happen to anybody. And Jasmine Wants to believe so. But it goes against everything she's ever learned.

[Jasmine]

At a certain point, you have to make a choice, and I want to make that choice. It's just really hard.

[Stevie Lane]

I mean, it's. It's hard because, like, I think from everything I've learned about your childhood and everything growing up, like, there probably were a lot of cases where, like, you were right to make those assumptions, like, because it was the worst case scenario. You know what I mean?

[Jasmine]

But I'm tired and a little sad. Yeah. And I do think that this way of viewing the world is harming me, like, in various aspects of my life. It's like. I don't know, it's like I'm meeting the world with, like, a knife out.

[Stevie Lane]

After their conversation, I'd reached out to Whitney too. I asked her why she doesn't draw the same conclusions from that night that Jasmine does. Whitney didn't want to speculate on Jasmine's experience, but she did offer this about her own life. After high school, Whitney went away to college, somewhere that was way more racially diverse than Springfield. She found herself around more people of color than she'd ever been around before. And it gave her a new sense of self confidence. It was the first time she says, that she felt beautiful. She took classes on race and inequality, spent semesters discussing and unpacking her own childhood. Then after graduating, she worked for many years in documentary film at a job where her voice was valued for being black. Jasmine's experience after high school was quite different. She didn't go to college, went straight to auditioning and hustling for acting roles. And because she's beautiful and talented, that worked out. But success also brought her to Hollywood, a place where it took until 2002 for a black woman to win an Oscar for Best Actress. Not exactly an environment known for valuing diversity. In some ways, it would have been better if Whitney could have told Jasmine. Yes, it was some malicious swap hearing that might have hurt, but at least it would have made sense. It's far scarier to imagine what Whitney is proposing, that it was just a.

[Jasmine]

Mistake, you know, like if I let that go and it was just an accident and things just happen. Whoa, who. Who am I? You know what I mean?

[Stevie Lane]

I mean, I think you're the homecoming queen.

[Jasmine]

That feels really nice, that idea of just accepting that. It seems like that might be true.

[Stevie Lane]

About homecoming. Here's what I think. We don't know what happened, but we do know what didn't happen. No one came up to Jasmine after to say sorry. No one even came up to her to say hey, that was weird, right? No one went to look for Jasmine or corrected the mistake. And in my conversations these last few months, most people didn't even remember it. So one black girl was substituted for another and that went largely uncommented on and unapologized for because no one seemed to think it was a big enough deal. Jasmine had wanted to know why the mix up happened, but just as important is why it was never righted. There was never any acknowledgment, which is why it's hurt for so long.

[Jasmine]

You want to know my first thought? Yeah, I should take pictures and a little crown. That might actually help it feel. You know what I mean? I never got that crown. I know I didn't get it. I didn't.

[Stevie Lane]

Just not from under the table I pull out a crown. It's shiny and gold and covered with crystals. Lime green of course.

[Jasmine]

Oh my God, that's beautiful. Why am I crying? That's so sweet.

[Stevie Lane]

Jasmine places the crown on her head.

[Jasmine]

Wow, this feels awesome. I finally got my crown. This is definitely doing something.

[Stevie Lane]

It's a hot day, but Jasmine says she wants to go for a long walk, feel the sun and spend an hour with herself. We say our goodbyes when she walks out the door onto the busy New York City street. She's still wearing her crown.

[Jasmine]

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide if we meant it, if we tried.

[Advertisement Voice / Malcolm Gladwell]

Or felt.

[Jasmine]

Around for far too much from things that accidentally touched.

[Stevie Lane]

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me, Stevie Lane, along with Jonathan Goldstein and Phoebe Flanagan. Our senior producer is Kahlilah Holt. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Robin Simeon, Zach St. Louis, Neil Drumming, Chris Neary and Han Goldman. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellowes, John K. Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Foxwood Orchestra, Distance and Lullatone. Our theme song is by the Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram @H heavyweightpodcast or email us @H heavyweightushkin FM. Jonathan will be back in two weeks to host a brand new episode, so stay tuned.

[Michael Lewis]

Michael Lewis here. My best selling book the Big Short tells the story of the buildup and burst of the US housing market back in 2008. A decade ago, the Big Short was made into an Academy Award winning movie and now I'm bringing it to you for the first time as an audiobook narrated by yours truly. The Big Short story, what it means to bet against the market and who really pays for an unchecked financial system is as relevant today as it's ever been. Get the Big Short now at Pushkin FM audiobooks, or wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Stevie Lane]

This is an iHeart podcast.