"Am I the Problem? Why Do People Flake on My Plans? Help!"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Help Wanted – "Am I the Problem? Why Do People Flake on My Plans? Help!"

Episode Information

• Title: Am I the Problem? Why Do People Flake on My Plans? Help!
• Host: Jason Feifer (Editor-in-Chief, Entrepreneur) with guest Katie Storino (Body Acceptance Advocate, Founder of Megababe)
• Release Date: February 12, 2025
• Description: In this episode of Help Wanted, Jason Feifer addresses the common frustration of people canceling plans, exploring whether the flake is the host's fault or a reflection of deeper social dynamics. With insights from guest Katie Storino, the hosts delve into the role of social anxiety and strategies to foster more reliable and fulfilling social interactions.

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Introduction

The episode opens with Jason Feifer discussing a personal dilemma: multiple attempts to organize a dinner with friends repeatedly fall through, leaving him questioning if he's inadvertently causing others to flake on plans. To unpack this issue, Jason invites guest Katie Storino, who shares her experiences and perspectives on why people might cancel or avoid committing to plans.

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Personal Stories of Flaking

Jen Miller's Frustration ([03:11] - [04:35])

Jason introduces Jen Miller, his wife, who recounts a recent weekend marred by obsessive worry over arranging plans with a friend, ultimately leading to no definitive meet-up. Jen expresses feelings of frustration and self-blame, highlighting the emotional toll of unconfirmed plans:

“I was convinced and perhaps remain convinced that she didn't actually want to get together with us. She was just kind of stringing us along.” – [04:23] Jen Miller

Jason's Persistent Efforts ([16:33] - [21:55])

Jason shares a detailed text exchange with a couple—referred to as John and Jane—who continuously postpone their dinner plans. Despite proposing multiple dates and maintaining enthusiasm, the couple's recurring cancellations leave Jason perplexed and disheartened:

“We're going to make it happen. And that is not bullshit. We are going to make it happen.” – [36:30] Jason Feifer

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Social Media Insights and Guest Introduction

Reaching Out to the Community ([05:04] - [07:05])

To gain broader insights, Jason turns to social media, specifically Instagram, asking followers why they're bad at making plans. The overwhelming response leads to the invitation of Katie Storino, who identifies as someone who struggles with committing to plans due to social anxiety.

“I believe social anxiety… the whole thing becomes exhausting and I just shut down.” – [07:05] Katie Storino

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Understanding Social Anxiety and Flaking

Katie Storino's Perspective ([07:05] - [09:06])

Katie explains that her difficulty in making plans stems from social anxiety, which causes her to overthink social engagements. This anxiety is particularly pronounced when interacting with new people, making her hesitant to commit:

“I'm running through so many scenarios in my own head that the whole thing becomes exhausting and I just shut down.” – [08:42] Katie Storino

Jen and Katie on Social Anxiety ([09:19] - [13:45])

Both Jen and Katie reveal that social anxiety affects their willingness to make and keep plans. They discuss how this anxiety leads to overcomplicating simple social interactions, creating a cycle of self-doubt and frustration when plans falter.

“I also feel that people don't want to hang out with me.” – [09:34] Jen Miller

“I have a need to create more community…and I really, like, can be empathetic to what might be happening.” – [35:11] Jen Miller

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Introducing the Social Competency Index

Jason's Theory ([22:35] - [24:15])

Jason proposes a "Social Competency Index," a scale from 1 to 10 measuring an individual's ability to communicate and follow through on social plans. He theorizes that life’s demands can temporarily lower one's social competency, causing misunderstandings about others' intentions:

“We are often interacting with people who think that they're good at making plans and have some of the instincts from when they were better at making plans.” – [22:35] Jason Feifer

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Strategies to Improve Social Interactions

Avoiding Side Conversations ([32:29] - [33:25])

To combat the issue of conversations splitting into separate groups, Jen and Katie discuss implementing a "no side convo" rule during social gatherings. This strategy aims to maintain inclusive and engaging group dynamics:

“No side convo… stop. Like, because it happens so fast, and then suddenly you're just there, and 30 minutes later, you look up and you're like, I don't know how we started talking about this.” – [32:45] Katie Storino

Fostering Group Engagement ([30:27] - [33:42])

The hosts explore methods to ensure that all participants in a group conversation are equally involved, preventing one-on-one interactions from derailing the social event. This includes setting clear expectations and actively engaging everyone in discussions.

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Conclusions and Moving Forward

Empathy and Understanding ([35:11] - [35:45])

Jen reflects on how understanding her own social anxiety, alongside Katie’s insights, fosters empathy towards others who may flake due to similar struggles. This mutual understanding helps alleviate feelings of personal inadequacy:

“...knowing that I have my own social anxiety and so I really, like, can be empathetic to what might be happening.” – [35:11] Jen Miller

Commitment to Change ([35:54] - [36:35])

In a positive turn, Katie agrees to meet up, demonstrating that open communication and mutual understanding can lead to successful social interactions. This resolution underscores the importance of addressing social anxiety and flaking proactively:

“John and I should hang out with you guys when we're back in the city. We would love to hang out.” – [36:16] Katie Storino

“We are going to make it happen. And that is not bullshit. We are going to make it happen.” – [36:30] Jason Feifer

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jen Miller on Social Anxiety Affecting Plans:

  “I was convinced and perhaps remain convinced that she didn't actually want to get together with us.” – [04:23]

• Katie Storino on Overthinking Plans:

  “I'm running through so many scenarios in my own head that the whole thing becomes exhausting and I just shut down.” – [08:42]

• Jason Feifer's Social Competency Index Theory:

  “We are often interacting with people who think that they're good at making plans and have some of the instincts from when they were better at making plans.” – [22:35]

• Katie Storino's Strategy Against Side Conversations:

  “No side convo… stop. Like, because it happens so fast, and then suddenly you're just there, and 30 minutes later, you look up and you're like, I don't know how we started talking about this.” – [32:45]

• Jason and Katie Resolving to Make Plans Work:

  Jason: “We are going to make it happen. And that is not bullshit. We are going to make it happen.” – [36:30] Katie: “We would love to hang out.” – [36:16]

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Key Takeaways

1. Social Anxiety as a Barrier: Both hosts and guests discuss how social anxiety can hinder the ability to make and keep plans, often leading to misinterpretations of others' intentions.

2. Understanding Flaking: Flaking on plans may not always be a personal rejection but can stem from the other party's social or logistical challenges.

3. Strategies for Better Social Planning: Implementing rules like avoiding side conversations and fostering inclusive group dynamics can enhance the reliability and enjoyment of social gatherings.

4. Empathy and Communication: Recognizing and empathizing with one's own and others' social anxieties can lead to more meaningful and resilient social connections.

5. Commitment to Overcome Flaking: Open dialogues and proactive efforts can bridge gaps caused by social anxiety, leading to successful and fulfilling social interactions.

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Conclusion

This episode of Help Wanted provides a candid exploration of the frustrations surrounding canceled plans and the potential underlying social dynamics. Through personal anecdotes and expert insights, Jason Feifer and guest Katie Storino offer valuable perspectives on how social anxiety impacts our social lives and propose actionable strategies to foster better and more reliable social connections. By understanding and addressing these challenges, listeners are encouraged to navigate their social interactions with increased empathy and effectiveness.

Transcript

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[Jason Pfeiffer]

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[Jason Pfeiffer]

This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.

[Nicole Lapp]

Entrepreneur Magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapp. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

[Nicole Lapp]

And it starts now.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Hey, Jen, do you remember a few weeks ago when our entire weekend was kind of ruined because you were obsessing over something?

[Jen Miller]

You're blaming the entire weekend being ruined over my obsession, but yes, I'm not.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Blaming you ruining my weekend, but I think that you ruined your weekend because you were obsessing over something.

[Jen Miller]

That is true.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

There you go. Can you remind me what that was?

[Jen Miller]

Yeah. I was trying to make plans with this mom and her kid. It was kind of gonna be like a joint family get together.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

And I could not pin the mom down. It was very frustrating.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. Because she would give you a little bit of information. She'd be like, yes, I am available on. And then you'd say, Great, how about 3pm and then you just could not get her to the point of actual confirmation. And so we had, in some way kept a lot of our weekend open with the expectation that we would see this family. And you just could not get her to the finish line. And the reason that the weekend was ruined, so to speak, was because, well.

[Jen Miller]

I was convinced and perhaps remain convinced that she didn't actually want to get together with us. She was just kind of stringing us along. It's like men. It's like the bad men that do that to you when you're dating them.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. But not me, because I was always very responsive when we were dating. Okay.

[Jen Miller]

That is true.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. So now let me. Let me say a few things here. Number one, you are Jen, which is to say you are my wife, Jen Miller, not Nicole Lapin, my usual co host on this show because Nicole is on maternity leave. So you are once again serving as my special co host. And then number two is we had this debate all that weekend about is this woman ignoring you?

[Public Representative]

Is she avoiding you?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Or is she just bad at making plans? And eventually I said, and you took the she is ignoring you side. I took the she is just bad at making plans side I said the only way to settle this is to take to the Internet and ask the Internet. So I went on Instagram and I. I basically just said, hello, followers, are you bad at making plans? And if so, why? And I got a flood of responses. And the most exciting and interesting came from my friend, Katie Storino. Katie Storino, body acceptance advocate, founder of megababe, and may I just say, mega influencer and mega cool person who admitted that she is not very good at making plans and was willing to come on a podcast and explain herself. So I have brought Katie on to join us. Katie, welcome to Help Wanted.

[Katie Storino]

Hello. Hello. And I'm so glad, Jen, that you're the special guest with this special topic today. This is, this is so up my alley. And I have a fresh example to talk about a live unrolling. Like it's happening right now.

[Jen Miller]

Oh, amazing. Excited.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

All right, so Katie, let's just kind of set the stage here. I think that Jen and you probably represent two very common types of people. And I want you to explain yourself because we have heard from Jen, but Jen is a very proactive plan maker, as am I. We reaching out to people all the time to make plans, and a lot of people are just really bad at getting back to us and we cannot figure out what's going on. You have admitted to me that you are that person. You're very hard to make plans with. And I really wanted to bring these sides together to create some kind of understanding about what is happening. So before we get into the specific situations that we have all lived, can you just tell us, Katie, why are you so bad at making plans?

[Katie Storino]

It's a combination of things. So we have a live example happening right now. A friend who I see probably once a year, she just texted me she's in town, she's gonna be at this hotel from 4:30 to 5:30. Could I stop by for a drink? I immediately was like, okay, let's talk about this in my head. I want to see this person. I like this person. I respect this person. I have a good time with this person. Oh God. What if at 4:30, which is only in two hours from now. I don't want to do that.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh my God, this is that live. Like we're recording at 2:30 right now and this is two hours.

[Katie Storino]

That's what I was saying. So. And she just texted me and I'm like, I like this person. But what if I go and I don't, I don't, I don't want to go. Or like what if I, what if I immediately like, what if I'm just like, I want to leave So a lot, Jen, I think a big part of this for me, I've thought about this, is that one I have, I believe, social anxiety, where it's like a plan is made and then I think about it all day. I'm like, oh God. I wake up and I'm like, but I got that thing at 4 and it's just in my brain. So I don't feel free the whole day because I got that thing at 4. And I think something that contributes to like the feeling of I've got that thing at 4 is hanging out with someone who's new and someone I'm not like, totally like comfortable with yet. So if it's like, I had a plan with my best friend at 4, I wouldn't get to think twice about it. If my best friend was like, meet me at this hotel, I'd be like, cool, like, I'll meet you wherever. But with someone new, I gotta put new effort in. I gotta make conversation. Do they like me? Am I saying the wrong thing? I'm. I'm running through so many scenarios in my own head that the whole thing becomes exhausting and I just shut down.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Wow, that's a very interesting insight. Because, Jen, when I think about who it's really hard to make plans with, it often is kind of newer people.

[Katie Storino]

Jen, what do you think about what I said?

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, no, I'm thinking about it. Well, so it's really interesting because I also have a lot of social anxiety.

[Katie Storino]

Okay.

[Jen Miller]

And my social anxiety manifests as people don't want to hang out with me.

[Katie Storino]

Which, which by the way, the up thing about me too is I also feel that people don't want to hang out with me. So I, I will also like reach out to someone and then they don't get back to me and I'm like, well, this is just horrible. Like, so I understand that also.

[Jen Miller]

I mean, I feel like we're, we're in like a chicken and egg situation here. Yes, right. Because Katie, what you represent is what is causing my anxiety, which is somehow causing you to not want to go out.

[Katie Storino]

I don't know, because it's just the, it's the newness and you're being so brave with your social anxiety, which I understand by asking someone for plans. But we're both kind of in the same boat of like, we're both torturing ourselves and each other with this whole like plan making situation.

[Jen Miller]

But I guess the question is how common is it that people have that degree of social anxiety that it's going to really, like, interfere? Because to me, in a way, essentially, doesn't it boil down to the same thing? Like, I don't really want to hang out with this person?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Well, okay.

[Jen Miller]

And I don't mean that as a criticism of you, Katie. Just.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, because you just kind of widened.

[Public Representative]

The lens here, Jen.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You're like, what about other people? Let me, let me read to both of you a couple other responses that I got on Instagram. I got like a bunch of them. So here were, here were some interesting ones. All right. So Casey said, it's just the way my brain functions. I can't make plans too far in advance. Did not unpack that further. I'm very curious as to why. Ilar said, honestly, I would love to hang out with most of my friends who reach out, but given my work and lifestyle, sometimes I can't predict the level of my energy for a given day or night ahead of time. Therefore, I refrain from committing 80% of the time unless I'm super comfortable yawning at dinner with that friend and not having to get changed, you make up, etc, knowing they understand and won't be offended or upset. Which Katie sort of reminds me of like the comfort that you would have getting together with your best friend. Jumana says my response is usually life happens. I wear multiple hats. I'm a mother, own a few businesses, I'm a consultant, et cetera, et cetera. I take each day as it comes, and if my response is delayed, it's not because I'm intentionally ignoring you. I simply don't have the space or energy to respond to that moment. When I find a call moment in a day or a week or two, I respond. And if it's a true friend, then they understand. And then this one was, I thought, especially interesting. So Yvonne said this. It's not because I don't care about the person. It's because I'm juggling my need for connection with my need to recharge. When my social battery is low, I feel like I have nothing to give. And it sucks because I know that might make someone feel like they aren't a priority to me. What really stings, Yvonne continues, what really stings is that when I've canceled too many times or procrastinated replying people often stop inviting me alt altogether. That leaves me feeling left out, which creates this vicious cycle where I wish I'd done better at staying connected in the first place. It feels like I Can't win. I either let people down or I potentially burn myself out of keeping up commitments that I don't have the energy for when the date comes around. Okay. Thoughts?

[Jen Miller]

Well, yeah. Okay, I get that. I know that I generally do not want to make plans on a weeknight to go do something that's in any way uncomfortable. Cause I. I know that, like, on a weeknight, I'm usually pretty tired, especially if it involves going outside. Like, in the summer, it's easier even. But, like, in the winter, to have to go out after dark, get on the train. I would rather just be at home in my sweatpants watching tv. I understand the thing about the energy for sure. Like, needing. Needing the energy. I just. I can't believe that that many people, Jason, in our lives have this issue.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But. But it was shocking how many people on Instagram reached out and said, I am bad at making plans. Like, people self identify, like Katie, as just being bad at this. And Katie, you. You, like, you're very aware that you're bad at this. This is a thing. You. You're not hiding it.

[Katie Storino]

I feel awful about it. And I also. I'm More confessionals. I have a friend who I had dinner with on Wednesday night, and she asked me if I want to go to the beach this weekend. I still haven't replied because I. I can't predict if I really want to go to the beach or not. I'm stuck. Jen, I agree with you that this seems like a really strange affliction for so many people to have, but clearly they.

[Jen Miller]

They have it. I guess I. I don't know.

[Katie Storino]

Or is the truth that the people that you're close with and the people that you're comfortable with are your people, and maybe you don't want to expand outside that circle because you don't have the bandwidth.

[Jen Miller]

That makes me really sad. Like, part of this is driven by a desire that I have to create more community. I mean, I love our friends. And I. And I know, I've heard. I've heard people talk about, like, you know, they get to this point in their lives or in our mid-40s, they don't want any more friends. They don't need any more friends. But first of all, that's not me and it's not Jason, but I think what's particularly strange about this. And so, Katie, actually, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. The. The people that I'm talking about, when you see them in the wild, they give every indication of actually really wanting to spend time with you and hang out with you. So the reluctance when it actually comes to pulling the trigger, that's part of what makes it so odd.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Like, we have. We have Katie, before you say, I just want to, like, color that in, there's a couple. We're just going to call them John and Jane. And we had John and Jane over once, like, a year ago, and it was great. Like, we just really connected. We got personal really fast. We loved them. And then afterwards, lots of texts. That was so great. We got to do that again. Jen and I have tried to get together with them so many times, and each time, they either don't respond for a long time or occasionally we've actually gotten a date on the calendar, and then they will back out of it, and, like, they will never reciprocate the effort.

[Public Representative]

Like, we are always the ones that.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Are starting the effort. But then we'll run into them on the street because, you know, we all live in Brooklyn. It's small enough, and. And they're like, oh, my God, it's so great to see you. We have to get together. And it's like, what the hell is happening right now?

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, I. I run into the dad, like. Like, pretty often at school.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

And the dad is always like, you know, my wife and I were always talking about how much fun we had at your house and how cool you guys are, and we never meet people that get past the small talk. And. Yeah, it's like, we need to get together. I'm. I'm looking up to see whether I have one of these text chains.

[Katie Storino]

Well, because I'm curious. I'm curious, as this is my nature. So I. I'd like to see if I can read between the lines about whether or not they're just being nice or if they're, like, having a meltdown on their own end. Because I will also admit that I have done that in person, where I run into someone that I don't want to hang out with, and I'm like, dinner. Get it on the calendar. Book it, book it, book it. Bye. But then I know I'm never gonna do it.

[Jen Miller]

Okay. I found. I found this particular text chain.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stick around, Help Wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

[Jen Miller]

So basically, Jason started a text chain with the two couples.

[Katie Storino]

Classic. I do this, by the way. I love starting a text chain. Oh, yeah.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Who does love a good text chain?

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

Okay, so, well, the first thing was. So Jason, like, threw out a few. A few things. Okay, so he says, ambitious idea. Get sitters and do dinner out on Friday. Or we could do a weeknight the next few weeks. Pretty flexible. That was on Sunday, September 8th.

[Katie Storino]

Okay.

[Jen Miller]

Basically, then, like, at some point later that day, it was Jason. Our day was awash. Our weekend consisted of house cleaning, wrangling, very cranky girls. We got nothing off the ground. Daughter one had a friend's birthday thing in the park midday today. And our Saturday walk to the farmer's market was not as magical as we were hoping for. It felt like the stars were not aligned. Wtf. But. But we would love to make a plan and follow through. Let's make it happen.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So we were like, oh, so that's too bad. Let's follow up. And you throw out a couple other dates.

[Jen Miller]

I throw out specific dates. Yeah.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

They. They like kind of blow past a lot of that, but then they come back and they do actually attempt to make plans.

[Jen Miller]

And by the way, this is how much. How much this is.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

A couple weeks have gone by.

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, a couple weeks have gone by.

[Katie Storino]

Is it still in September?

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, still in September. I wrote them on the. On the 9th. It's now the 20th.

[Katie Storino]

Okay.

[Jen Miller]

Okay.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. So Jane, Jane says, forgive us. It took a long time to get back to you. Are you still free on one of the dates? We could have you over whatever you prefer. And if that date doesn't work, no worries. We will find alternative two exclamation marks. We respond with like, that same day. Yeah. And then a couple days go by, we don't hear from them. Jen follows up. A couple more days go by.

[Jen Miller]

So now. So they have. Have suggest they have been the ones to throw out the date. Yeah, right. And you.

[Katie Storino]

And you replied to the dates. You're like, yes, we can do.

[Jen Miller]

Yes, we said we're free. Thinking kids are no kids. We'd happily do no kids, but no, it isn't always easy to get sitters. That was on that. Okay. And then four days later, we haven't heard from them. They didn't respond to that.

[Katie Storino]

Sorry. Are your kids all the same age?

[Jen Miller]

Ish.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, Ish.

[Katie Storino]

Okay, so. So if you did like a with kids thing, your kids can, like sit all in a room and like do and watch.

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I was like, hey, guys, following up. What do you think about kids? No kids on Saturday. That's Tuesday, Thursday.

[Katie Storino]

Oh, God, Jen.

[Jen Miller]

Jason, I think we may need to beg off to another night. We're just wiped out.

[Katie Storino]

British.

[Jen Miller]

Between last weekend's camping and then hitting the ground immediately without a Break this week and work and the kids. I think we're pooped. It's ironic. I mean, this is a dissertation. It's ironic.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

It goes on.

[Jen Miller]

Friends just wrote us the same. They begged off for tomorrow. Then he's talking about a review he read of this dumpling place that he really wants to go to, that we could do that together. And then. Then they're bringing in a third couple that. The people who introduced us to them, who also. We can't make plans.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

They're also very bad at making plans. I mean, the summary here. The summary here.

[Katie Storino]

No, but I gotta know. So where does it. So where does it get.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Where does it end?

[Jen Miller]

Okay, so then Jason's like. So then Jason's like, we are totally down for dumplings.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

Okay. So that was.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I even included a dumpling emoji. I mean, I'm really going for it here.

[Jen Miller]

Okay, so then. So that was Friday, September 27th. Then Wednesday, November 6th. That is the next text that afternoon, I have run into the dad at school. And then that evening, the dad writes and says. So Jen and I actually got to talk at school today at pickup. And it was fortuitous. We said maybe the 16th, and I said we were free. Well, I'm a dipshit. There's a reason we're free. Jane isn't here that weekend. In fact, she's leaving. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why is this so hard? And then after that, we did not respond because I wouldn't respond to that. But, like, this is. This is like, I'm so pathetic. I still really want to have them over for dinner.

[Katie Storino]

That's okay. But I. But just hearing that text chain. I also wouldn't have responded because I. They're flaking without. They're flaking and, like, teasing plans and. I don't know. I. I don't like it.

[Jen Miller]

What's going on?

[Katie Storino]

I wouldn't. Maybe they let's. Maybe they don't want to hang out.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

See, if they didn't want to hang out, why offer that level of detail? It's so much detail.

[Katie Storino]

Like, it's even more. Because you. Maybe you know how liars sometimes are. Like, oh, my God, like, I, like, had to go to the dentist. I have this deep too. Like, you know how it says many details? Maybe that's. Maybe that's it.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Can I. Can I run a theory by you?

[Katie Storino]

Yes.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

My theory is that we need to. We need to acknowledge something I'm going to call the Social Competency Index. Social Competency Index, which I just made up is that everybody falls on a, on a scale from 1 to 10 on social competency. And I'm just going to define social competency as the ability to clearly communicate about social plans and follow through on them. And I think that everybody naturally falls somewhere on this index. But there are probably two things happening. Number one at certain times in your life. And I think that we are all in that time, like whatever your natural social competency index number is. So let's say, let's say you are naturally a five. So it's like, you know, sometimes you're pretty good, sometimes you're not. Let's just say like at this time in our life, which I'm just going to define as this is a time in our life where we all just are like really busy because we're like creating something. So maybe it's family, maybe it's work, but like whatever. This is like the moment of just charging hard that your social competency index score naturally drops by two to three points. So if you were, if you were naturally a five, now you're like a, you're like a two. But you may not be aware of that. And so that's the other thing. So I think that, I think we are often interacting with people who think that they're good at making plans and have some of the instincts from when they were better at making plans, when they were like maybe a six or a seven. And they just cannot recognize that at this time in their life they're actually a four or a five.

[Jen Miller]

I think they're just not into us.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's more simple.

[Katie Storino]

I'm going to tell you something. I think you're on to something. This, I don't think that this is where you want to go with your life or your career. But like that, that's actually a really interesting thing because as per your, the reactions you got on social media and how common this is happening with you and how I'm over here having the same experience on both sides. Yeah, but I'm just telling you like I've. Fine. I'm gonna read my live text which is. Oh yeah, Katie, I think I saw you're in Palm Beach. We have an hour break between ceremony and wedding tonight at Everglades and grabbing a beverage with Blank at the colony at 4:30 in case you're around for a quick hang hug. Now it's 2 o'clock when I've received this information and like this seems like a really easy social drop in, but I said cute. I'll let you know if I'm going to be around because again, I couldn't, I couldn't commit.

[Jen Miller]

I'm going to say though that this falls into a different category.

[Katie Storino]

Which one?

[Jen Miller]

The, the, like you get a request to hang out.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

In a very short period of time from when the request comes in. To me, that's a different situation there. I totally feel you in terms of like, do I really want to do this? Even if I in theory want to see this person, Am I going to want to leave the house at the time?

[Katie Storino]

But it's in an.

[Jen Miller]

No, but that's what I'm saying. For me personally, I distinguish between plans that are made in advance and plans that might come up last minute if it requires me going somewhere. So like, if it was a question of like having people over or going somewhere like really close by, I don't care how last minute the plans are. But in the middle of the day when like I'm already doing X, Y and Z thing and somebody appears from out of town and requires me to go downtown to a hotel.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

That to me that's a different situation than trying to make plans for dinner weeks in advance. Because you have the ability to then prepare yourself to like, psychologically prepare yourself to have that social engagement. This is how it is for me.

[Katie Storino]

I, I think I'm the opposite, Jen. I think I am probably more likely to say yes to this. And I will most, I will most likely go to this because it just popped on my radar. I don't have to think about it for the next three days. Like, I don't have to like have that whole cycle. I can just be like, okay, this happening right now, it's over by 5pm this plan will be over anyway.

[Jen Miller]

Like, oh, interesting.

[Katie Storino]

So I, I, I will probably say yes to this. We got a lot of problems here in our brains.

[Jen Miller]

Well, I just think it's really interesting like how we're both kind of navigating this social anxiety and we have like different needs for calibrating it. Right. I need to prepare myself. So like, I would prefer to have the time.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

But I don't want the time. You don't want the time. But the other thing though is that I keep, I mean, I was joking before about he's not just, he's just not that into you. But I mean, you know, occasionally someone will ask me to do something.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

And I won't want to do it and I'll feel bad and I'll, but like it almost never happens. Cause I'm usually really excited when Somebody.

[Katie Storino]

Wants to do something, I feel the same way.

[Jen Miller]

It, like it might not be a priority because if there's other things going on and if it was like someone, like, I really, really wanted to see, but making that time, I don't actually have a lot of time to make that time. I'm. I would only give that time up for, for someone who's a major, major priority, whereas if I had more flexibility, I'd be more in for just a casual hang. But the reason I'm inclined to think that all these people don't actually want to hang out with us is because when I don't want to hang out with somebody, I just don't, don't.

[Katie Storino]

I don't know. I don't agree with. I don't agree that they don't want to hang out, especially because that dad's coming in with. I don't know, that dad. That dad throwing that date out and then pulling it back.

[Jen Miller]

So, so, Jason, do you remember the other consideration that I had about why these plans might be canceled? I, I would love Katie's take on this.

[Katie Storino]

Do you remember?

[Public Representative]

No.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Remind me.

[Jen Miller]

So, because when you're dealing with couples.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

You have to deal with each person's issue and perhaps one member of the duo.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

Is uncomfortable and. Or doesn't want to hang out with us. And the other person does.

[Katie Storino]

Yes. That's real. That's real too.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. And that's a really hard thing to untangle because the, because this, we have, we have been on. I don't know if we've been on one end of it or not, but we've certainly been on the other, which is that you and I have enjoyed getting together with, like, one person from another couple, but then the other person's, like, dragging it down. And then I'll be like, oh, they go like, oh, yeah, we should get. Get together with those people again. And you'll be like, I don't know. And then I can't throw my wife under the bus and be like, well, we can't get together because my wife doesn't like your wife. So instead I just have to, I just have to become non committal. I have to cover for her in some way. And, and then there's no, Nobody ever understands.

[Katie Storino]

You might. You may be onto something there. I, I don't know about you, Jen, but, like, I frequently, when I get put with a. This is so stereotypical. But like, when I get put with a wife that I don't get along with, we have nothing to say to each other. And I know I'm going to be there just pulling teeth. I can't. I can't force myself to do it. And as I've gotten older, I actually won't do it. So I'm just like, you know what? You can go on fudgeing vacation with this family. I don't care. I'm not coming. That's okay. Because I just, I'm. I feel like you should be able to nurture the friendship with the husband and like it shouldn't have to be couple dependent. I, I feel passionate about that.

[Jen Miller]

Yeah. Well, the problem for. The problem for us and I. This is. I have a real thing about this. This is like another episode, perhaps for help wanted. But it's. It's the problem of two couples getting together and the inevitable situation of the wives having to talk and the husbands having to talk. And I hate that so much. I hate it. I want everyone to be able to talk together.

[Katie Storino]

Yeah.

[Jen Miller]

But the fact that it often defaults and it's not that the. Sometimes the wife is more interesting than the husband and then that's great. But often one person, often I don't know. I don't know what it is.

[Katie Storino]

It's dud in the bunch.

[Jen Miller]

Yeah.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's dud in the bunch. So we, we had an interesting experience which I don't know how to replicate, but Jen and I have talked about if it's possible to engineer this, which is so our friends, and they listen to this show, so I'm going to call them out by name because it's a positive thing, which is. So during COVID we met this couple, Kelly and Peter. And Kelly and Peter have this nice large backyard and we didn't know them before and we would go over and our parents would watch our kids and then we would sit 10ft apart and then we would talk. And because we were all. We were 10ft apart, there was no way for the conversation to split up into the guys talking and the women talking. So it had to be a group because we were too far away for it to split. And as a result, we created a fantastic, like, foursome dynamic where everyone was contributing equally. We were like, you know, I get along with Kelly and with Peter and Jen gets along with Kelly and with Peter. And that created a really wonderful friendship. And. And now Covid's gone and you don't have to sit 10ft apart, which means that it's pretty easy to sit at a table and then have the conversation just cleave. And the question is like how do you avoid the cleaving of the conversation?

[Katie Storino]

I openly am like, no, no. Like, let. No. No side convo. I do that all the time at group generous. Because. Yeah, because, I mean, probably everyone hates me, but, like, I. I don't want to be in this one on one when I hear other shit happening across the table.

[Jen Miller]

Really? Interesting. Yeah.

[Katie Storino]

You know, literally.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Wait, I want the game plan on it. Are you literally just saying no side convo? And who are you saying to? The whole group.

[Katie Storino]

The whole group. I'm like, no, no. Like, no side convo. Like, stop. Like, because you. Because it happens so fast, and then suddenly you're just there, and 30 minutes later, you look up and you're like, I don't. I don't know how we started talking about this, and I don't even want to be. So, yes, no side combo is important.

[Jen Miller]

All right, Jason, we're gonna start implementing that no side combo.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

We're gonna put it on a T shirt.

[Jen Miller]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's just like.

[Katie Storino]

It's like group chats only or, like, I don't know, you know, I want.

[Jen Miller]

A T shirt that says no side combo.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I will make you a T shirt that says no side combo.

[Jen Miller]

Okay, well, wait. What if I. But then can I just say what is triggering to me about this whole thing, which is that I am then convinced that the reason that the couples don't want to come over is because of me. Because of course they want to talk. Yeah, of course they want to talk to Jason.

[Katie Storino]

No, no, no, no, no. I understand. I. I understand that. Listen, five girls came in town earlier this week, and they all saw me. They all know I'm here. They were all like, come hang out tomorrow. No one called me, and I wasn't gonna call them, so I unders. I am ready for rejection at every. At every point, Jen, so I understand how you feel.

[Jen Miller]

How could you possibly be? The second you came on this podcast, I was like, well, Katie's fun.

[Katie Storino]

I am so fun. But I. But. But there's. There's so many other factors, unfortunately, that than. Than fun in the social world. And I don't always like that game. You know, like, it's like we live in New York. I mean, I'm live from Palm Beach, Florida, right now. But. But usually, yeah, but, like. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of unfortunate, like, social things that happen. It's. What are the. What do the couples do for work? Like, who. Who can gain from who? Like, there's lots of shitty Parts of, like, socializing, that shouldn't be factors, but I fear are factors for many people just to leave it on a downer.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, no, well, I was gonna say. Yeah. So though, I'm gonna bring it back up for. To end this. So in conclusion, Jen, after hearing Katie, do you feel at least marginally better that people are not just avoiding you, that sometimes they just are bad at making plans?

[Katie Storino]

I don't know. That dumpling daddy is. Has me.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Jen, I want an answer.

[Jen Miller]

I mean, I suppose that that having a window into the social anxiety stuff that's happening and knowing that I have my own social anxiety and so I really, like, can be empathetic to what might. I mean, honestly, I feel like if I had been more popular in middle school, like, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That is going to have to be for another podcast episode. Katie, do you. Have we resolved anything for you or are you just continuing?

[Katie Storino]

I think you've confirmed I'm like a social freak with like a. With like a two on that social scale social competency either. Yes.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Well, the thing is that it doesn't sound like you're a social freak. It sounds like you. You are part of a very large tribe, which, you know, at the very least, now we all understand each other. All right, final question.

[Jen Miller]

Katie, will you come over for dinner?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Do you want to hang out? Yes.

[Katie Storino]

Yes. I was just thinking, I'm like, you know what? John and I should hang out with you guys when we're back in the city. We would love to hang out.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Amazing. All right. We're going to make it happen. And that is not bullshit. We are going to make it happen.

[Katie Storino]

Great. Great. And I feel good about that. That feels easy for me, FYI.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, good. That is a high compliment. Okay, I'm excited. All right, well, we will continue the conversation then. Katie Serino, thank you so much for joining us on Help Wanted.

[Katie Storino]

Thank you, guys.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

[Nicole Lapp]

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@help wantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions, questions answered on the show and follow us on Instagramoney News and TikTokoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance.

[Public Representative]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[Nicole Lapp]

All right, well, talk to you soon.