← Help Wanted
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- [00:07]
Jason Pfeiffer
This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.
- [00:13]
Nicole Lapin
Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.
- [00:21]
Jason Pfeiffer
And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.
- [00:26]
Nicole Lapin
And it starts now.
- [00:28]
Jason Pfeiffer
Hello, Help Wanted listeners. It's just me, Jason. Usually I am co hosting these episodes with Nicole, but Nicole is on maternity leave. We just announced that last week, so now it's just me. Now it begins. Me and the co hosts who are filling in for Nicole, and we have a whole lot of them lined up over the next two months. I'm excited. But to start, I thought, you know, Nicole, I often call her my work wife. Why don't I start with my actual wife as my co host for this first episode? And Nicole and I, last week, we had this conversation about how your life changes with kids. And so, you know, I was having that with my work wife who is about to have her first child. Why don't I have a conversation with my actual wife about life with two children? And this is inspired by a conversation that we had in the kitchen not long ago where we started talking about finding satisfaction in life and how kids do and don't fit into that. And anyway, let me stop rambling and just bring in my actual wife who's been on the show before. Jen Miller, welcome to Help Wanted.
- [01:40]
Jen Miller
Thanks so much for having me on the show.
- [01:42]
Jason Pfeiffer
It's great to have you back. This feels appropriate to co host this with you because I'm co hosting everything else with you outside of this show.
- [01:51]
Jen Miller
So are we co hosting two children? We're co hosting two children, one hamster.
- [01:57]
Jason Pfeiffer
We're co hosting one hamster now. We are. Her name is Candy, which is short for cantaloupe, if you are curious. So today we're almost going to pick up this conversation that I had with Nicole. It's funny. It's like Nicole and I were talking before she was about to have her first child. I told her this story, I don't know if you remember this, of you and I sitting on the floor of our old living room before we moved. And you were pregnant with Fen, our first child. And I had this realization. This was like you were like nine months pregnant. Like, this was any day now. We were. This is the time where you just sit around and wait to go into labor. And I remember thinking, like, we are at the end of before times. You know, like, people end up dividing their lives between. Like, before we had kids, I was like this. And then after I had kids, like, my whole life was different. And I remember thinking in that moment, we are at the very end of the before times. Do you remember that, by the way?
- [02:59]
Jen Miller
I kind of do. I think in a lot of ways it makes sense for you that it would be the before times. And you can explain to your listeners what that means for me. I was kind of hoping that the. And this is really the crux of the conversation that we had a couple days ago.
- [03:18]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah. Which we'll dig into in this episode.
- [03:20]
Jen Miller
Yeah, I was really hoping that. That the kids would be a good disruptor in terms of my obsession with work, with my ambition, with my anxiety over all of that stuff. Like, I kind of hoped that becoming a mom would get me out of my head and, like, allow me to focus more on other people. And I mean, it definitely has. I mean, I can't even imagine what my life would be like without the children. I think I would be really miserable. But it definitely didn't do as good a job. Job of that as I wished, so.
- [03:58]
Jason Pfeiffer
Right. Because. Because let's just. Let's put a little more context to that, because I remember you saying before both children, you said it before Fen. And then years later, you said it before you gave birth to Colin, our younger child, who's now five. So five and nine is how old her kids are. To support. Orient people to the timeline here, you're basically saying, like, you. You get so obsessed with work in. In what can be a really unhealthy way. Right. Which. Which is a lot of. This is anxiety driven. And what this looks like, not to speak for you, but just to summarize, here's a prototypical situation. Prototypical situation is. So Jen is a journalist and a novelist. And that work requires constant idea generation and pitching out to gatekeepers, editors at various newspapers or book publishers, and then waiting to hear back on whether or not this project can go on. And so what will happen over and over again is that you will have some great idea and you will pitch it out, and then you will be stuck in this endless cycle of some editor considering it or saying yes, but then not getting back to you or disappearing for some period of time. And you cannot stop obsessing over those things and then extrapolating outward from them into cataclysmic career events. So it's like, if this New York Times editor will not get back to me, then my career is over. Is that more or less?
- [05:36]
Jen Miller
Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much so, right.
- [05:39]
Jason Pfeiffer
So in other words, what you were hoping for with the children was that there would be these bigger, extremely important new things in your life and things to focus on so that these anxieties, overwork, and where is this editor and why is this project not moving forward? These things wouldn't consume you the way that they would before. That was your hope.
- [06:04]
Jen Miller
Yeah, but I think also not even just the share of my brain space on a daily basis, I think it was more like, what is it as a human do I feel is validating to me or like what validates me as a human? Right. And the interesting thing, and kind of the irony is that, you know, historically, women have been validated in the eyes of society in their roles as mothers and in their roles as wives. And that it's been this very long, hard fought battle for women to receive validation as something other than a mother and something other than a wife. And so, I mean, you know, it's a testament to women's rights that I progress.
- [06:53]
Jason Pfeiffer
This is what you asked for, ladies, right.
- [06:55]
Jen Miller
That I now, you know, find myself in a situation where I wish that, like, psychologically, like, whatever it is, I wish that I could feel more personal validation actually in being a mom. And. And not just from my work. And like, of course I do. You know, I do receive validation from being a mom and I spend a lot of time being a mom. But I do wish that it was okay for if I wanted to stop working, which I don't at all. But like, I almost wish that I felt like I could feel like I wanted to stop working to take care of my kids, if that makes sense.
- [07:32]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah. Because the kids would be enough that the personal satisfaction and the validation of your worth as a human could be found in that work. Enough that you could let go of some of the other work, like work work. Because although you're proud of this, you're very proud of the journalism and the books and all that, as you very well should be, it is also a grind. It is a emotional grind. And sometimes wouldn't it be nice to put that aside?
- [08:03]
Jen Miller
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that if it wasn't a grind. Cause I love the actual work itself, right. So it's not like, I mean, I can't spend every second with my kids, I go crazy. But yeah, I think if it wasn't as much of a grind, I wouldn't worry about it so much and I would just. I do enjoy being. I really enjoy being a mom. I wish I felt kind of more self validation from being a mom.
- [08:25]
Jason Pfeiffer
Right. So that's a great setup to the conversation that we had in the kitchen right after New Year, on New Year's, which was the impetus for this episode here, which was, well, why don't you just take us into it? Because what I was saying a few minutes ago was that when I was talking to Nicole just before she went on maternity leave, she was having this speculative conversation about how children will impact women, her work and her priorities. And in a way, this conversation between you and I is like a flash forward of a decade, of what that's actually like when you add kids into the mix of parents who are very work oriented. Right. I mean, that's what Nicole was talking about. Her work was her first child, her first love. She was describing it as. And you and I are very work oriented as well. So, okay, we're going to flash forward from Nicole's life now a decade into our life with a nine and a five year old. And it's now I'm going to take us back to New Year's 2025. We're in the kitchen, and I'm asking you what you're looking forward to in 2025. Like, what are you looking forward to this year? What do you hope to accomplish all that?
- [09:35]
Jen Miller
And you told me, well, I said that I want in this year to be able to feel more validation from. From being a mom. And I don't actually think that's possible, but it would really be nice.
- [09:53]
Jason Pfeiffer
Do you want that because you want the validation from being a mom or because you just want to shift the validation away from the parts of work that feel emotionally toxic?
- [10:07]
Jen Miller
Yeah, I definitely want to shift from the parts of work that feel emotionally toxic because there's a lot of that. I think recently I've had more of a sense that there's things that I can do for the kids that feel productive in the same way that maybe work feels productive.
- [10:29]
Jason Pfeiffer
Oh, that's interesting.
- [10:30]
Jen Miller
Yeah. I mean, well, right, so, I mean, the example that I gave you that night in the kitchen, we've been talking about sending our older son to sleepaway camp for a variety of reasons. I think this would be a really great thing for him. And I also know that it's tricky to find the right camp. And it's just really important to me that I'm sending him to a place that is gonna support him in the way that he needs to be supported. And so, you know, I mean, I don't know how many hours I spent, but it was like a decent amount of time.
- [11:01]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah, I did a lot of work on this. Let me ask you. And I. I'm not asking this accusatorily because I don't have an answer to this, but, like, why is that not as satisfying as work?
- [11:11]
Jen Miller
Part of it is the amount of time it takes. I mean, I did put in like many hours, but I put in far fewer hours than I put into anything else. I mean, a lot of this is like, what are the. What are the standards that society has set up? Right. I'm not getting paid to do this. I am paying someone else to do this. Right. So, like, I am actually spending money to do this. There is. I mean, we're not. We're not competitive with other people. We don't care where our kids. We're not like status obsessed status. We don't care where our kids go to college or even if they go to college. Sorry, mom. But we work really hard. We are very ambitious. I think we are, like, competing against ourselves. And I think that, like, when it comes to your children, you can't compete against yourself to raise your kid. You just do the best you can. And, you know, we're in a privileged place where we can send Fen to an overnight camp for a couple of weeks, which I know a lot of families couldn't do.
- [12:13]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah, I. I have a. I have a theory as.
- [12:15]
Jen Miller
Go ahead.
- [12:15]
Jason Pfeiffer
We're more. Maybe more of a visual metaphor. And that is. This is what pops to mind to me as I've been trying to like, suss out what is the practical difference between doing work and raising children. Why would one feel more personally validating than the other? I think work feels like hacking your way through a dense thicket and creating your own path. And the thing that I am most satisfied about my work is not actually my day to day work, much of which I actually find quite annoying, but rather that I have created this path, that I have gotten to this place, that I have created these opportunities, that people want me for these things. Like, I love that I made that with my own hands. Not really, because I made it with my own keyboard, really, but you get the idea. Like, I've hacked away at this thicket and I've created this path. And when I think about parenting, I don't picture that. You know what I picture? What I picture is a path that already exists that I am going down. Like, I picture you have a child and then that child has milestones, and then you make your way through the milestones and you Manage them like, okay, now this is this stage of life and so, so we've got to do this and then we're going to get to that. It's almost like work is completely dependent upon what I make it. And raising a child is managing a pre existing set of experiences and concerns. And that's why when I think about the things that I accomplish in work, I feel like I have hacked another part of that and I am further because of my own ingenuity and motivation and whatever. And when I think about just my child reaching the next stage, I feel like great. Like great. We've moved along to the next thing. And it does, it doesn't give me that sense of like I did it.
- [14:10]
Jen Miller
I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I would say that I fall somewhere in between. The path is already there versus you need to create the path. I mean, I think that it's like you're, when you're figuring out like where your kid's going to go to school and like what activities you're going to encourage them to do and what boundaries and rules you give them, like all of these things are helping to create the path that opens in front of them. And I think some of these things do a little more clearing path clearing than others. But you're right. At the end of the day, you can't control and you shouldn't try. I don't think you should shouldn't try to control what your kid is or becomes like you. You can't control it anyway. It's a futile exercise.
- [14:57]
Jason Pfeiffer
Right? I mean, right. I, I mean I feel very much like our kids lives are their lives. And what you'll find out in parenting very quickly is you can only influence it so much. I want to give them that agency, but it doesn't give me the same kind of personal satisfaction as like doing work because I know the work was mine and I own it. And I also can parade it around as if it is mine. And I can't do that with my kids. It's their life. It's. They're their own people.
- [15:26]
Jen Miller
You know what though? Here's what I will say because and this is not. I just want to be clear for people listening. I in no way mean to like be issuing any judgment toward people who don't work professional jobs and instead raise their kids as their job, which is a job. And I talk to you about the labor of that all the time.
- [15:48]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yes, yes you do.
- [15:49]
Jen Miller
I think that if you were a little bit less obsessed with your work, work Then I would actually feel more comfortable deriving more validation and spending more time and deriving more happiness purely from the kids without my work. Work. But it's hard. I'm already predisposed to be the ambitious person, but like, being with another ambitious person makes it almost impossible to like, scale back from that.
- [16:20]
Jason Pfeiffer
Oh, that's so, that's so interesting. I don't know that I've heard you say that. Wait, in other words, like, if, if you were married to someone who was less work oriented, then you, you might feel like you could scale back from work too, because you wouldn't be surrounded by, by this constant talk of, of, of like, work drive.
- [16:47]
Jen Miller
It's not even the constant talk of work drive. I think part of it is like, this gets to this idea of like the role of marriage in work and parenting. But I, I kind of feel like it's. Why did we, why did you and I get together initially? Right? Like, what is the foundation of our, of our relationship? We did not come together to be parents. We came together and then we decided to be parents, and now we are parents together. And I think we're really great parents together. But the foundation of our relationship is very much actually based around who we are as, as creators, as people who make things, as people who tell stories, as people who are engaged in that kind of work.
- [17:40]
Jason Pfeiffer
Right. And that was very. And yes, and just, just to be clear, like, that's not just like who we are, but that is, that is literally what we originally connected on. Like, I, I had a long term girlfriend before I met you. She was not very work oriented. She resented how much I was focused on building a career and that drove a big wedge between us. And when I met you and I found someone who understood the things that I wanted out of my life and I understood what you wanted out of your life, that felt like a, like a thing that we could share and celebrate together.
- [18:16]
Jen Miller
Yeah, exactly. And so I think that if I, if I scaled back too much, I think that I would feel like there was a weird imbalance in our relationship. That wouldn't be good. So that's why I think if we were both kind of scaling back to some degree, it would make more sense. Then there's the question though, of, like, what kind of professional work is legitimate work? Do I. Am I considering to be legitimate work? Right, because, like, I could pick something that's less toxic than being a freelance journalist in 2025.
- [18:55]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yes, well, you certainly could. We have talked about that. That's a subject for another episode but yeah, right. Well, you are. I mean, this is an interesting thought experiment which is, do you think you are wired to have this complicated relationship with your work or did you just find complicated work? Like, like if you were doing something that just didn't require the same kind of constant chasing and waiting and relying on like, you know, other gatekeeper type people, do you think that you would just have a less complicated relationship with work or do you think that you would just find something else to be anxious about with it? Because there's always another level. There's always like another thing you could be doing. There's always another like thing that, you know, it's, it's not like freelance journalists are the only people who are anxious about their work.
- [19:46]
Jen Miller
I don't know. I mean, I guess I tend to see it in terms of a binary of like, trade off. So it's like, what is the price or the anxiety and the constant feeling that I'm being batted around by gatekeepers. What am I getting for that? I'm getting flexibility. I'm getting never, never really being bored with what I'm doing. Like you just said, you find, you know, a lot of what you have to do day to day annoying and boring. And I don't like when I'm doing this thing that I'm doing. I love it. Like I very rarely feel bored.
- [20:22]
Jason Pfeiffer
That is great. It's really great. Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back.
- [20:33]
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- [23:38]
Jason Pfeiffer
Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. Let us go back to the conversation in the kitchen. It is about to become January 1, 2025 and you're saying you wish you were able to shift some of that personal validation off of work and onto kids. I know the answer to this question. Both I know what you think and I also know what is true. But let me just ask it because I am going to Socratic Method style. Just get into a different question. So do you think you are a good parent?
- [24:12]
Jen Miller
Yes.
- [24:13]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yes. That was the. That was the correct answer. Is that validation?
- [24:18]
Jen Miller
Yeah, I feel good about that. I also feel like I have the resources to be a pretty good parent. Parent, right? It's a balance between being there for your kid, listening to your kid, helping your kid. And I think that, you know, like, I'm attuned to what they need, but I could not get as frustrated with them.
- [24:39]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah, well, I mean, if you could do that, you would be some sort of supernatural saint figure. I mean, I don't know that anybody doesn't, you know, get frustrated. So, you know, it's interesting because I feel like, in a way, where this conversation originated, but also where we're driving towards is circling back to this question that Nicole and I have talked about so many times on the show in so many different ways, which is, like, what's enough? And why isn't something enough? And so there's no, like, a solution or conclusion here, but rather just a kind of interesting observation, right? Which is, like, in some way, I think what we're talking about is what are the things that satisfy whatever it is that we wake up in the morning looking for from ourselves? And if there's ever a definition of what is enough, maybe it's just that is like, you wake up in the morning, and whether you're consciously or subconsciously thinking about it, it's like there is something that you demand and desire of yourself, and if it was ever possible to have it and to satisfy it, that that would be what you would call enough. And so maybe it's like, how much does being a good parent. If you step back and think of it, how much of being a good parent satisfies that question of what's enough?
- [25:58]
Jen Miller
I don't know. I feel like this whole conversation, like, shouldn't being a good parent be enough? Like, isn't that the thing? Isn't that generally the societal standard for. And I realize I keep talking about societal standards, but, like, nobody's gonna arrest you and put you in jail if you're bad at your job, right? But if you are bad, if you are, like, really bad at.
- [26:21]
Jason Pfeiffer
Well, unless you're running Enron, then okay.
- [26:24]
Jen Miller
But, like, right, but, like, you can run afoul of the law for being bad at parenting. Like, what is important is the important thing that I write another article or I produce this podcast or this book gets a good review. Like, is that important? Or is making sure that the human beings that I brought into this world are happy and healthy and supported and are raised to be good people? Like, this is obviously.
- [26:55]
Jason Pfeiffer
Well, obviously, well, but obviously, when you say it like that, but in the personal, it's obviously. It's not obvious. It is conceptually, right? It is Conceptual I, on a, on paper level, I don't think anyone would dispute it is more important to make sure that this human you have brought into the world is being shaped in the right way so that they can live a fulfilling life and impact others in fulfilling and positive ways. That, that is more important than like getting that random thing done today.
- [27:27]
Jen Miller
Right. But so then why.
- [27:29]
Jason Pfeiffer
So, but then why. Right, so then why then why does she heal it?
- [27:33]
Jen Miller
Exactly. Why?
- [27:34]
Jason Pfeiffer
I guess the most satisfying answer that I can offer is let us acknowledge the disconnect that we all live with there. Let us therefore say, you know what, we shouldn't give ourselves a hard time for that. Like, right, that's like that. That just, it just is what it is. And you could come up with all sorts of justifications for it or explanations for it or visual metaphors for it. I've produced this like path metaphor, but I could probably have come up with like 20 more. It just on a day to day basis. It is easier to measure your worth by a task that you needed to accomplish and then accomplished than it is to measure your worth by the incremental and invisible gain that was created inside of another human being who cannot fully articulate themselves that you created and live with. Like, it's just, it's not possible to measure, measure away these things against each other. They just are. And the way in which you will react to those is going to be different depending on like what your constitution is in relationship to family and work. But I don't know, there's a better answer than like you just can't give yourself a hard time over it.
- [28:46]
Jen Miller
I mean, maybe if, maybe if there was, maybe if the same metrics that apply to journalism applied to parenting, maybe we need different incentives. Like, maybe we need like top 10 lists for parenting. Maybe we need New York Times reviews for parenting. Right? I've got to get my parenting reviewed in the Times if I can.
- [29:06]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah, that's right. Like somebody's, like somebody will come over and observe you and then, and then write about you in the Times.
- [29:12]
Jen Miller
Maybe that would incentivize me to, to feel like it could just be about.
- [29:16]
Jason Pfeiffer
My children because you would have that public validation.
- [29:19]
Jen Miller
Exactly. I'm so kidding.
- [29:20]
Jason Pfeiffer
Listen listeners, open call, open call, help wanted listeners. If someone wants to come over and observe us as parents and then review us in the paper of record.
- [29:32]
Jen Miller
I don't know, I'm having a really hard time, like not quite, not like questioning as offensive everything that's coming out of my mouth. Right? Because like when we get off this call, I'm about to have an interview for the book that I'm writing about a kid who had. Who has had CPS called on her family multiple times. Like people do have people coming in and observing their homes for.
- [29:55]
Jason Pfeiffer
Well, yes, okay.
- [29:57]
Jen Miller
I'm just saying.
- [29:57]
Jason Pfeiffer
Yeah. Jen, for context is writing a book about teen mental health right now. Well, look, here's the final point I'll make on this. So number one, I would not worry about having said something and then being offensive. Instead, what I will tell you from my own experience talking about parenting on this podcast, which I've done many times and have been very open about, like you well know, Jen, because we talk about it a lot, like my own challenges with parenting is that people email me and they thank me. They email me and they thank me for like verbalizing something that they were uncomfortable saying themselves. Which means that this is just a universal experience. And the only problem with it, I think, is that it's not talked about enough. So, number one, just know that I think a lot of people will hear this and will relate. And then number two is, okay, so someone's not going to come in and review us in the New York Times because that would be horrible. That would be a horrible thing for society to have people reviewed in New York Times for their parenting. But I will review you and I tell you that you get an A plus, you get a higher, certainly higher ratings than me.
- [31:02]
Jen Miller
I think I agree with that.
- [31:06]
Jason Pfeiffer
So I think you're an amazing mom and you should be feel very validated by that. Even though I know that that is not going to erase any work anxiety. I think the best you can do is just talk about it and find validation in that. We're all grappling with these same questions. And five stars would. Would recommend.
- [31:29]
Jen Miller
Five stars would recommend. All right, I gotta go. Cause I got a work call.
- [31:33]
Jason Pfeiffer
All right. Yes, well, Jen is off. Help Wanted listeners, just one more reminder before we end. My work wife Nicole Lapin is on maternity leave. So today you heard me and my actual wife, wife Jen Miller. And over the next two months on Help Wanted, I'll be co hosting a range of guest voices. We've got really exciting stuff lined up tackling some big problems for people both personally and professionally. So stay tuned. I hope you like it because if you do, I would find that personally validating and maybe even a little more validating than whatever I have to do later this evening as a parent. Don't tell my wife I said that. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.
- [32:16]
Nicole Lapin
Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. You want some help? Email our helpline at Help Wanted at Money New for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTokoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?
- [32:37]
Jason Pfeiffer
Oh, I didn't sign up for that.
- [32:38]
Nicole Lapin
All right, well, talk to you soon.