B (2:40)

So there it is. But no, but that, that is a. That is an encapsulation of what I do when I cancel with you guys. You know, it was super casual because we're all. We're always moving things around. It's totally fine. But if it was. Oh, but oh, my gosh, do I have an example for you. So I don't like canceling. I don't love the signal that it sends, and I worry that people will think that I am unreliable. And so I. I send. I send quite a thing, and I want to show you what that is. This is. This was not teed up. I didn't know that I was reading this, so I have to find it. Okay, so ready? I was talking with some people about potentially speaking at an event. And I. And then like, it was really short notice. It was going to be like next week. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I can make it. And then I couldn't. I had to do a family thing. And so here is the. Here is the message I sent to these three people who I was talking to, who. Who I had been talking to about doing a number of different things with. So I really, really want to make sure that they understand that I am not normally a canceler. I wrote, hey, all very bummed about this, but I'm no longer available on the date I was already gone for speaking. This was a couple days before that week. And a family obligation just came up on the date that I need to attend to. It's too much stress on my family for me to be gone then. To be honest, I am especially regretful about this because it's the first time we've all explored working together. And I don't want to create the impression that I'm unpredictable or unreliable. When something is on my calendar, I move mountains to keep it. I've built a reputation on that. But in this unique case, we have a perfect storm of travel. A wild December family stuff, and an event we hadn't solidified a plan on yet. I'd love to know what's next on your agenda so that I could help with it. Including those. Whatever we're talking about. And I promise that when we lock something in, it's locked in. If I can ever be helpful in helping find a replacement for me, please let me know. I'll put out some lines. Thanks so much. That's what I said. That's how I came to. Wow.

A (4:43)

Wow, wow. That was so effuse. That was so much information. Well, actually, it wasn't in. In the sense that I would love to dig into you never. You didn't really, like, get into the reason. I understand that you were, like, framing because this was a new relationship about how you are reliable and they don't seem to know that. Yeah, I guess the. The reason.

C (5:10)

Like, how.

A (5:11)

When do you give the reason that you can't make it? And how much detail do you get into about the reason that you cannot make it? Because I think at this point, we're all, you know, professional humans. Like, we don't want to cancel. That's like, table stakes. Nobody wants to cancel. Nobody wants to get canceled on. Like, the bar should be, like, for people that you're doing business with, pretty high for, like, canceling anything. How much information do you share about, like, the reason that you needed to cancel? Are you sick? Is somebody else sick? Do you have your period? Do you have a death. Do. Is there a family emergency?

B (5:50)

Right.

A (5:51)

You need to take your dog to the airport or whatever?

B (5:54)

Yeah. So I'm laughing at.

A (5:57)

Because Morgan shared some information about that when she canceled that we had. So how much do you share?

B (6:07)

So I don't share a ton of. Because I don't think that it's totally necessary. I don't want people to feel like I'm TMI ing for. For. There was a. Somebody just canceled. I'm trying to find it. I can't remember how she sent it to me. Somebody canceled coffee with me two days ago. And. And they were like. They were like, I am really sorry, but I caught the flu, and I've been in bed for, like, X number of hours, and I, like, I have, like, snot flowing out of my nose, and it was, like. It was, like, pretty graphic. And. And I was like, I get it. You're sick. Like, I did. I didn't need half of those details. And similarly, I find that saying, like, a family obligation came up. Like, nobody feels like they need to know what the family obligation is. And, you know, look, sometimes a family obligation is very serious. A family obligation could be somebody died. A family obligation could be that I just got to take my kid to something, and, like, you know, we were going to have a nanny do it, and the nanny's not available, and now I got to do it, like, whatever it is. But I just find that people generally understand, like, I want to give people enough information to know that if I didn't have to cancel, I wouldn't, but that I'm prioritizing something important. And so, like, a family obligation always signals importance. Nobody's ever like, tell me what it was, you know? And similarly, I think, you know, like, I'm in bed and I have the flu. Like, that's enough. I don't want to see you when you have the flu, so you stay there and then we'll see each other later. So it's not a ton, but it's like it's enough to know that it's real.

A (7:38)

Especially post Covid. Nobody, nobody really wants to see you when you're sick. But like, you don't need to tell me about your phlegm or your.

B (7:45)

No, you know, I don't need that.

A (7:46)

The temperature or I don't know. Or it depends on like how close you are. Right? So like maybe for us canceling or shortening our recording, like you have a call or if it was more juicy than that, like you would share or you have to take your wife to a thing or your kid has the thing or you know, I don't know.

B (8:06)

If it was fun. You know what? Actually funny enough, I hadn't thought about this until right now, but do you know what I'm doing at 4:30 is I'm talking to the person that I sent that effusive cancel note to. Like this was that I. That sent that like a week or so ago. And then this is the only time that she was available to Talk was at 4:30.

A (8:21)

And I was like, you canceled on us.

B (8:23)

Canceled on you because. Because now I'm thinking about. It's like a. There's like a cancel tolerance. Right. It's like I can't cancel on her. I can't say I'm not available. I need that relationship because I think that it's going to turn into a bunch of speaking business. Whereas I know that you and I, like we're always moving stuff around. We do our best to keep to it, but if it has to move, it has to move. We have lives. So that's. That calculation was pretty easy to me. But it sounds like you're teeing up something that happened or.

A (8:52)

No, it's been teed. Oh, I've already teed. We're already like 10 minutes into this thing, right?

B (8:58)

Yeah, but I mean like what was the inappropriate canceling that happened?

A (9:01)

There is. So we had some guests actually. So it was really interesting. Like a B testing. So we had three in person guests. Morgan flew out one.

B (9:13)

Which means. Which means flying out from New York to la. So this is a. Yeah. So it was a considerable effort.

A (9:18)

Yeah, yeah, big deal. So we had one lady who was also flying out to do the interview, but the amount of TMI that she went into was like next level. She had something with her dad and like now I know the whole story about the dad and the sickness and the like this and that. And then started like texting Morgan, like play by play of this, like family emergency and like called her at 3 o' clock in the morning and like tried to, to get her involved in like the medical, you know, stuff and the decision of coming or not coming. And it was sort of like, lady, like, if you like can't do the show, it really sucks, but just say you can't do the show and that's it. Then in contrast, we had a celebrity send a note through the rep that he needed to cancel and all the note said was like, he needs to cancel. Love to reschedule in January. And so same two extremes situation. Two extremes. And got me thinking of like, how much do you say when you're canceling or if I were in the situation? I think earlier in my career I sort of like gave a lot of information when I was canceling because felt really bad. Like I remember sending flowers to, you know, interviews that I had to cancel because of this, that or the other and like felt so bad and now I just kind of feel like, no, it's not, it's not great. But if I have something that's that I deem important enough that I can't make a thing, I just kind of say like, I can't come to the thing most of the time unless it's like very close. And so it made me, made me think of, you know, Morgan canceling one of our meetings. And just like the amount of information she gave about her dog I found to be very interesting.

B (11:13)

All right, Morgan is here and she's laughing at this. So Morgan, take us into the mind to the moment in which you had to cancel a meeting with Nicole and something was happening with your dog. Like, what were you trying to, what were you, what were you worried about?

C (11:27)

Love to. Okay, so it was a call with our With Eminence PR team. So we have a group chat. That's me and Nicole and like six other people. And I'll just tell you what I said and then you guys let me know what you think and then I'll tell you why I said it the way that I said it. Okay. I said, hi everyone, so sorry, but long story long, I have to drop my dog off on the way to the airport right at the time of our call. So I'll try to join, but I will be late and may even miss it. I know on my list for this week is getting approval from the entrepreneur team for the press release. Please let me know if any follow ups are needed. From me and Nicole was like, that's the message.

B (12:10)

I was waiting. I was bracing myself for much more.

C (12:12)

No, no, no.

B (12:13)

It was.

A (12:13)

It was. I don't think that it was wrong. It was just, like, a lot more information than I was expecting to know about everybody.

C (12:26)

I totally see that. And it is so funny in retrospect, because I could have. I could have just said, hey, everyone, I'm gonna be late on the call. Let me know what you need from me. I could have just said that. But I think what I took away from Jason's example in his, like, sorry to cancel this text is you want to communicate why? So that people understand the context or the stakes. In Jason's case, for me, it wasn't like the stakes were that high. I had to drop off my dog on the way to the airport. But the background is that we had that we have this weekly call with our PR team. They already had asked to change it, and they had asked if I was available at a certain time, and I had confirmed. And I personally don't like it when our weekly calls get moved. And so I don't want to reinforce to them that, like, yeah, this is just a placeholder on the calendar, but, like, move. Or, like, who cares if I'm. If I'm, like, walking back from getting coffee, I might not join either. So. And so I didn't want to communicate that, like, I was blowing it off or that there was any other option for me to do the call that day, because I was like, this is the only time that I'm dropping off. Like, the exact time of our call is when I am dropping my dog off. I can't move that time, so I can't join the call. But let me know what you need. And so maybe I didn't need to give all of that detail, but what I was trying to do, because I didn't really like it when I got that cancellation note from the celebrity, and he was like, sorry, yeah, no info.

B (14:08)

I just can't do it.

C (14:09)

Yeah, it's like. And it was, you know, the day before, and I had flown out.

B (14:14)

Yeah. So annoying.

C (14:15)

Yeah. Like, it. Like, I want to know that there's a reason, and it's not that you're just blowing it off because you don't think it's important.

B (14:25)

And so I. I've developed a theory as you've been talking, and the theory is that you want to assure people that they are where they believe they should be in your priority list. People don't want to feel like they are in the wrong place on your priority list, and they understand that they aren't going to be at the top of a priority list. For example, like, if Nicole's husband or child needs something and that means that she has to cancel something with me, no problem. I belong below those priorities. Right. But the. Well, but I don't know.

C (15:07)

That's a fair point.

B (15:08)

No, no, no. But I think. But I think. No, because. Because it's the dog.

A (15:11)

What about.

B (15:11)

Because it's the dog and the airport. It's like you're traveling. There is a kind of. There's a fixed window for things to happen. Like, this is like. It's like a life complication thing. Right? Like, I. I actually would feel weird if. If Morgan was like, whoo. Well, I'm glad I made this PR call. Funny thing. My dog is going to starve at home because I wasn't able to drop her off. But I had to. I made the call.

A (15:34)

Right.

B (15:34)

Like, that's not the priority thing is.

A (15:37)

Is totally. It just. I observed that it was, like, oddly specific, I think, like, talking about. Talking about a reason that, you know, you're sick, your husband, whoever. Like, humans need you, and oddly specific, like, dog thing. I don't know. I just, like, open for discussion. I just wonder if, like, crazy travel schedule, like, I'll join later.

B (16:04)

Right? I mean, you could also. Look, you can also. And this is. This is. This. This is giving away a little secret here, which you can call me on in the future if you think that I have used it on you. Family obligation is something that I use, even if there is not a family obligation. Like, if there's some other reason that I had, I will just say family obligation, because nobody's going to ever argue with that. And you don't need to go into the detail of it. Right? Like, you could have very easily said, like, guys, I'm so sorry. I've got a family obligation I just have to take care of in this time. It's possible that I'll be able to join. I am just not sure. Also, at that time, I will be on the way to the airport. So there's. I'm just gonna be moving a lot. But here's the thing that you need to know that would have been fine. Like, you don't always need these, like, kind of funny details. But I do think that the instinct that Morgan had to try to communicate that. That she's not missing this for nothing, and she's not missing it for, like, a stupid reason. Right? It wasn't it wasn't like, I actually just really want a hamburger at this time. And so I'm not going to join the call because, you know, like, it's. There's a reason. And so I think our primary objective here is just making sure that people feel appropriate, appreciated, and not lower on your priority list than they believe they should be.

C (17:23)

Yeah, I like that. And to add to what Nicole was saying about the cancellation, we got on the other side of the spectrum. That was too much. That was crazy. There was what Nicole was saying about me getting involved in the medical thing was. She told me so. It was the day before the interview. She was supposed to fly out that night, and she was like, my dad's really not doing well, so I'm nervous about what it might mean if I leave for the day, but you let me know what you think is best. And I was like, I can't make a decision if you should leave, if your dad's on his deathbed and you should come to Los Angeles.

A (18:06)

Like, I can't make that decision for you.

C (18:08)

That's crazy. Like, yeah, I think what you're saying, Jason, about communicating where you are on somebody's priority list, that is important, and you can also go so overboard with it, or you can make it about, like, you can put your cancellation on. On somebody else, make it a burden for somebody else in that way where she's like, I don't know, like, I'd hate to not be a person of my word, so you let me know. And I'm like, don't put your dad this on me. This is me out.

B (18:39)

That's very. That was. That was way, way, way, way, way too much. Way too much. Yeah, Right. That again, she could have just said family obligation. And maybe if she wanted to say, like, just a little bit more, like, you know, she could have also said, you know, I'm so sorry, my dad is having a really hard time, and I just need to be there with him. No problem. You go, like, go to your dad. We'll do this another time. Like, nobody's going to argue with that. And that's like. That's a fight. It's like. It's like. It's. It's an amount of information. It's kind of personal, but it doesn't. It's not a burden amount of information. And it would have completely shown the priority.

C (19:14)

Yeah. And it's also definitive because that was another thing that was hard. We were just like, we need to know so that we can try to schedule another interview if we have to. And so her calling me at 3 o' clock in the morning, she was like, I'm boarding the flight. And I was like, okay, it's the middle of the night where I am. And then she called me at 8 o' clock in the morning and was like, hey, I had a feeling this was gonna happen.

A (19:39)

But she landed first.

C (19:41)

Yeah, she. She called me at eight, she said she landed and she was like, I had a feeling this would happen. My dad had either a seizure or a stroke, and I'm gonna turn around.

B (19:52)

Oh, my God.

C (19:53)

Home to the East Coast. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And then I felt terrible because I was like, oh, God. Like, this is. I sort of feel like I was a part of this.

B (20:03)

You're like, hit it.

C (20:04)

Yeah, yeah. And. And so I was like, oh, my God. You know, it's a long flight. Like, what if her dad dies while.

A (20:10)

She'S in the air?

C (20:11)

Like, this is awesome.

B (20:12)

Right? And like. And I had something to do with it in some way.

C (20:14)

It's like, yeah, Morgan, welcome to. It killed your dad, right?

B (20:18)

Right, Morgan, welcome to our family nightmare.

C (20:20)

Like crazy.

A (20:23)

We don't know you, lady.

C (20:24)

I was so stressed out about it. And so the next day I text her and I was like, hey, I just wanted to check in on your dad. Like, how's she doing? And she was like, oh. Oh, my God. Thanks so much for checking in. He actually didn't have a stroke. He just had low iron.

A (20:37)

He just had to burp.

B (20:39)

Girl.

C (20:39)

Low iron. Jesus. Don't we all?

B (20:42)

Okay, that. Yes, that is definitely too. That is too much in every possible way. It's tmi. It's just. It's not enough. It's more information than anybody needs. It long ago fulfilled the basic requirement here, which was just communicate priority. She did not need to share all that. That's something that is no good. You know, it's like the happy medium is really between these two examples. I think that. I don't think that the celebrity should have done it like that. Or, you know, may. Or the publicist shouldn't have done it like that. Right. Like, the celebrity. The publicist knows what the celebrity is up to and could have at the very least said to you, so sorry, celebrity can't make it today because family obligation, something. Just give me something that isn't. Like, the celebrity just had to drop.

A (21:29)

Their dog off at the airport.

B (21:30)

Just lost interest in this. That would have been the airport. Do you know the greatest celebrity cancellation that I've ever experienced? And, like, this was. This was fantastic. Which was. Which was. We were doing a cover shoot. This was years ago for Guy Fieri and actually, Nicole. This. This is going to hit. It's going to get close to home here. But. So we were doing a cover shoot for Guy Fieri, and he. He canceled. Yeah, he canceled that morning because there had been a fire somewhere. It was. It was years, years ago, but there was a fire somewhere in California, and he wanted to go and cook for the first responders and the people impacted. And we were like, go. Like, go. Fantastic. Excellent reason to cancel a cover shoot. Go. We'll do it another time. And then he, you know, then we did it, like, two days later. But, like, I like that talk about priorities, you know? Like, that actually said a lot. Like, he. Here, he's getting a magazine cover shoot, and he has put that on hold to just do the nice right thing. Like, fantastic. Go.

A (22:32)

Yeah. I think that there's a couple of things at play here. There's the time element. So, like, how soon to this event are you canceling? Because that feels disrespectful if it's really soon. The person couldn't fill their time with another meeting or another. We could have, you know, had other interviews if we had known a little bit more in advance. So, like, how much ahead of the event are you canceling? How well do you know the person?

C (23:06)

Right.

A (23:07)

So I think those are sort of like, the axis in play here for how to respond. But I think we can agree that, like, a little something to humanize the situation, but not too much something. Mostly like, something if it relates to other human beings.

B (23:29)

Yeah. Or human being's best friend.

A (23:35)

Yes, totally. I think best friends. Like, we've heard a lot of cat in the hospital stuff, and they are our furry family. I don't know. I think, like, something to contextualize the cancellation or, you know, the situation for the person who is now, like, affected because they blocked out this time for you, you know, and if you know them really well, like, tell them all the things. I think, like, Morgan, if this lady. If you knew this lady, like, you'd want to be in the thick, right?

C (24:16)

Totally.

A (24:17)

But now that, you know, like, her dad has, like, a little iron. And now we all know, and now all of our listeners, they're like, nobody. Like, what are we doing? I'm so sorry to knock on Skipper. Like, I love Skipper, and it's really bad.

B (24:30)

Yes.

C (24:30)

What do you mean? Is Skipper the dog? Skipper's the dog.

B (24:34)

Maybe Skipper's the dad who's low on iron.

A (24:36)

I don't know the number one dog name. I think Scout and Skipper. And no, we love. We love Skipper.

B (24:47)

Yeah, I'm glad Skipper got.

A (24:48)

He got okay. He's okay.

C (24:51)

He did. The funny thing about that was that Nicole thought that I was. I was dropping Skipper off at the airport.

A (24:58)

I read it so fast, and I'm.

C (25:00)

Still like, my dog has to flight to catch. Yeah, sorry. You guys are. This call is very important to me, but I have to drop my dog off first.

A (25:09)

Flight.

C (25:10)

My. My day job is my dog's driver.

B (25:14)

Yeah, my dog's got a red eye.

A (25:16)

Oh, life.

B (25:17)

All right.

A (25:18)

Anyways, gotta go. Gotta cancel this recording.

B (25:22)

Well, it's. I'm actually about to take the call that I canceled the next part of our recording for, so, you know, guys, I'll talk to you later. I have a family obligation. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

A (25:39)

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@helpwantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at. At Money News and Tik Tok MoneyNews Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

B (26:00)

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

A (26:01)

All right, well, talk to you soon.