Jason Pfeiffer (4:13)

This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of

Nicole Lapin (4:19)

Entrepreneur Magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

Jason Pfeiffer (4:27)

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

Nicole Lapin (4:32)

And it starts now.

Jason Pfeiffer (4:35)

Nicole, I read this really smart thing on LinkedIn recently. Yeah, don't ask kids what do you want to be when you grow up? Instead, ask them, what problem do you want to solve?

Nicole Lapin (4:46)

Wow, that's so smart.

Jason Pfeiffer (4:47)

So smart. Who wrote that? I did. You wrote that?

Nicole Lapin (4:53)

And I changed those first two lines because of your advice on the previous episode.

Jason Pfeiffer (5:00)

Go listen to it if you haven't already. But let's get to this because the reason I love this post is because it was really thoughtful.

Nicole Lapin (5:07)

Thank you.

Jason Pfeiffer (5:07)

And it also engages with a really Challenging topic, which is how to talk to kids about work, especially if work is a really big part of your life. Because I will tell you as someone who has a almost 10 year old, actually a 6 year old, that they pick up on prioritization. And my kids see me working at times where they would rather that I be focused on them. And they see me traveling for work and therefore not at home. And they have questions about that and they make statements about that. And Colin, my six year old has said to me multiple times, put down your phone. And so how do you talk to your kids about work? One, just so that you help them think about what problems they might want to solve. And so I want you to unpack that more, but also to help them understand you if work is a big part of you. So Nicole, why don't we actually just start with this point that you made. Let's unpack that and then we can dig deeper. What is the difference between my daughter.

Nicole Lapin (6:15)

My daughter doesn't know how to speak yet, so she can't tell me to put down my phone or not to go travel somewhere. So I'm more thinking about how do I talk to her about what she wants to be when she grows up. Because it's often one of the first questions you get asked. And then all these toys have different professions and it's cool now because the Barbies and whatnot are astronauts. Like they weren't that when I was little. But you sort of frame this idea to your kids of what you want to be when you grow up. And in a world where AI is changing and disrupting everything and automation is reshaping the workplace and the workforce like never before, maybe these job titles are going to be irrelevant by the time she grows up. And so instead I've more thought about saying, what problems do you want to solve? So instead of if she wants to be a doctor, maybe not show her a white coat, but instead start thinking about lives she wants to save or communities that she wants to heal, or if she wants to be a teacher. It's less about the quintessential chalkboard because also, are there even chalkboards? I don't know, are there iPads? So that image and more. Well, what does she want to teach?

Jason Pfeiffer (7:28)

You're like drawing a distinction between a job and a purpose. The challenge with the idea of your job is your purpose is that not everyone has the kinds of jobs that obviously are purpose driven. Right. If we're telling people like you must find purpose in your work and you don't find purpose in your work, then you can feel pretty lost. And so it's a good idea to start to introduce the idea that the impact that you have in the world can overlap with the job that you have, but it doesn't necessarily have to.

Nicole Lapin (7:57)

Or that the job might not even exist, but the problems will still exist. So if you are focused on problem solving, which I know you think about

Jason Pfeiffer (8:05)

a lot of, like, a versatility issue

Nicole Lapin (8:07)

here, then she'll be more ready for the future, whatever that looks like. So problems will still exist, but the jobs and the titles might not?

Jason Pfeiffer (8:15)

That's right. That's something I preach all the time, which is to identify not with the tasks you perform or the role that you occupy, but with your transferable value. I have never thought to ask my kids, what kind of problem do you want to solve? I don't know that they would have an answer. Colin, who's 6 years old, is obsessed with the police. He likes to dress up like a police officer. He likes to arrest people. I've been arrested many times. I have a long rap sheet at home. In that case, he is definitely identifying with this role.

Nicole Lapin (8:45)

Why?

Jason Pfeiffer (8:46)

It's a good question. Well, he switched around like all kids do. He was obsessed with being a doctor for a while. Now he's obsessed with the police to psychoanalyze him here. A thing that Colin really loves is to be listened to and to be the leader. When there's a bunch of kids at our place, Colin will start making up rules for them all to follow. And he's really good at it. One time I walked upstairs and the kids were literally lined up in a straight file line outside of his door. And I was like, what is going on here? And I knocked on the door and inside of the bedroom was like, Colin and one other kid and he was like, taking appointments and forcing them all. Just wait, you know, I think that he's gravitating towards the police because he sees the police as a position of authority and he wants that as the younger child. I think that's something he especially craves. So this is interesting. Like, Colin is too young to have a perception of what problem does he want to solve in the world, but he is definitely recognizing a problem he wants to solve for himself. He is like, associating that with a role that he recognizes in society as carrying authority. And maybe that means that he'll go on to be a leader in some way, whatever that is going to mean to him. But that's how it manifests right now, which is interesting.

Nicole Lapin (10:05)

Yeah, I think about this a lot. Her father is in the AI space heavily and thinks a lot about how jobs are going to change in the future. So I wonder if you talk to Colin about the idea of helping people, does he want to be a police officer because he wants to help people or protect from bad guys, or does he want to be a doctor to save people's lives or whatever?

Jason Pfeiffer (10:30)

The idea of being a helper is something that we've noticed he responds to really well. And this was really helpful when he's mostly over this, thankfully. But there was like two years where it was really hard to drop him off somewhere, particularly if it was new, which I understand, let's say a new camp, a new day camp that he's going to for a week. But even when he got familiar with it and comfortable with it, and even when all the kids and the staff knew him, he would often still just have a lot of separation anxiety and so it would just be tough to drop him off. But what we discovered was that if he could slide immediately into the role of being a helper, then he was more comfortable. So we would often tell the counselor at some arts and crafts day camp that we're going to drop him off at for the day, we would ask them, is there something that Colin can do to be the helper right now? Can he hand out paper to the other kids? Can he round something up? And then they would find a task for him and we would present him with a task and tell him that he's the helper and then he would do it. And that was actually how we got out of there. And he would stay at the camp, which was really interesting. And I think that in his mind probably a very clear overlap between the helper and the police, which is a position of authority, but also a position of helping.

Nicole Lapin (11:47)

And I think that's maybe what you recognize as the parent, right? Because when you start asking what kind of problems they want to solve or roles they want to have, you give them permission to think bigger. Maybe it shows that value isn't tied to that job title, but it's tied to making a difference. And by helping you're making a difference. And so that's agnostic to a lot of different.

Jason Pfeiffer (12:11)

Yeah. It's funny, I wonder when some child psychologist could articulate far better than me, like at what point does the idea of making a difference start to click in kids minds the way that we might think of it. But certainly there is making a difference even in small ways, making someone else feel better if they Feel bad to get back to the idea of work and purpose and helping them to appreciate the idea of work and purpose. And where does purpose get drawn from in work? I'll tell you this interesting story. So about three years ago, my speaking business people hiring me to do keynote talks really started to take off. And so this was 2022, and it was the first year that I was traveling with any kind of consistency. Before that, it would be maybe one trip every couple months or whatever, but. But suddenly I was on the road a lot. Like sometimes multiple times a month. And this is great for the family in a financial way. It's good money, pays the mortgage. But I hadn't thought about how this would impact the kids. And Fenn, who's my older son, who, let's see, he's almost 10, so let's just say he was about 7 at the time. Colin was too young to really notice or care. But Fenn was very aware that I was now leaving for periods of time and not long stretches of time, usually one or two nights, if it's one or two nights every week. And he knows that it's not like me just out, but like I am leaving. He started to ask me why I have to do it and to say that he doesn't like it and to articulate either to me or to Jen, my wife, that he was sad about it. And we didn't know what to do about this because I don't want to create a problem for the family. I don't want to give him a. Like a. I want to create an issue. But also, personally, this is something I worked really hard for many, many years to get to the point where people were offering me this kind of business at rates that are going to create a meaningful financial impact for the family. And so how do we resolve this tension between this upsetting fan and me being able to fulfill a goal of mine and also to make additional money for the family. And we didn't really know what to do about this until we were talking about this with our neighbors. Shout out Liz and Ned and Liz, who just really understands kids and the way that kids think. Liz came up with this great idea. And the great idea was to take Fen on one of the speaking trips. She said doing this allows you to accomplish a whole bunch of things. Number one, he will be really excited because it is a special thing that he gets to do with you. Number two is he will get to see what happens during these trips. And number three, you get to talk to him about why this is Meaningful to you. And number four, you get to show him that you want him to be involved in it, that it's not like a separate thing from him. And then number five is that you can talk about how when you are traveling, you miss the family. But also, this is very important to you, and it's important to find things that you love and to be able to do them. It's fulfilling. And so we thought this was a great idea and picked a trip. This was now, a couple years ago, I picked a trip where I was speaking at an event in Cleveland, which was great because we have family in Cleveland. He's got some cousins in Cleveland. And so we were able to travel out there and then spend the evening before the talk the next day with the cousins. And then actually, some of the family came to the talk and sat with him while it went on. Oh, and before. So the day of was great. He was psyched, and he was running around the venue, and I brought him up on stage before the event. The event space was filled with audience, and then I asked, asked him if he would like to be on stage when I start. I could introduce you to the audience. And he said yes. And so I was introduced. I got on stage. I told everyone, this is a really special day for me because my son is here for the first time to see me talk. And I said, fen, come up here on stage. And so he got up on stage, and he's not a spotlight kind of kid. He is shy in large groups. So I was actually surprised he did this. But he got up and he waved to the crowd, and I didn't ask him to do anything more because he wouldn't have wanted to. And then he did. I was like, all right, well, thanks, Ben. Okay, here we go. And fan did this, like, funny spin, jump off the stage. And then I gave my talk. And it was actually funny to watch him, because at 7, he had absolutely no interest in what I had to say and really no ability to sit in a chair for that amount of time. And so he was doing everything he could within this confined space. He was on the chair. He was under the chair. He was under the table. He was, you know, like, he was just. He was all over the place, but. But he really loved it. And then he asked for more. And so I told him, we'll do at least one a year. And I have brought him onto other trips, and it goes exactly the same. He's really excited about it. We show up at the venue, and he's the roadrunner, just Zipping all over the place. And it really has made a difference. That's not to say that he loves that I'm gone as much as I am, but. But I think he gets it more. He can picture it. And I am also more mindful of communicating to him that I miss him and miss the family when I'm gone. But also to talk about the importance of this to me, why it's important, and how much work I had to put into to make it a lot more than just the money. Because there are a lot of ways to make money that don't require you to travel like this. And I don't think that's the right explanation is that I'm just traveling around for money. I think that feels cold. Instead, I talk a lot about how proud I am to do this work and how much joy it brings me and the impact that I see my work have. And that has become a very good model for me for just how to talk about work with my kids in general.

Nicole Lapin (18:22)

And I love that because the more I try to teach myself how to be a parent. I've seen a ton of articles that might be clickbaity, but they're very interesting.

Jason Pfeiffer (18:31)

Doesn't that basically summarize the Internet? Very clickbaity. Also kind of interesting.

Nicole Lapin (18:34)

Yeah, exactly. They did pay off. Talking about the number one indicator of a child's happiness, spoiler alert. Is the happiness of the mother in particular, aside from everything else. So I'm assuming it's also the happiness of the father. The happiness of parents generally yield happier children.

Jason Pfeiffer (18:52)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (18:52)

Because they can feel that. And so explaining to your kids what drives your happiness or how this makes you a happy person or allows you to show up in that way is awesome. Because if you then said no to these engagements and you stayed home to make Fen, what he thinks would be happy, you wouldn't be happy. And so he actually wouldn't be more happy because you would feel resentful.

Jason Pfeiffer (19:20)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (19:21)

It's true that you're not on more

Jason Pfeiffer (19:22)

speaking, but we're managing it.

Nicole Lapin (19:23)

Yeah, but I think it's like age appropriate too. That's not a seven year old age appropriate conversation. He's nine now, right? It's not a nine year old.

Jason Pfeiffer (19:32)

No, he's almost ten. But no, still, we're not going to be talking about resentfulness. Right.

Nicole Lapin (19:36)

It evolves.

Jason Pfeiffer (19:36)

Well, I think it's worth engaging with that. I wouldn't use the word resentful with him.

Nicole Lapin (19:40)

I mean, at some point he'll listen to the episode.

Jason Pfeiffer (19:42)

Oh, you think so? If my parents had a podcast, I would literally never be interested in listening to it as a kid. No, absolutely not. No. He has zero interest in the output of our work, which I think is age appropriate. Instead of resentfulness, I think it is worth talking about trade offs and you have to find the right balance of trade offs because I don't know, I've never thought about this until the word trade offs came out of my mouth. But interesting to note that when we talk about trade offs, we make it plural. A trade off might be just giving up one thing for the other, but what we actually do is trade offs, which is that we go back and forth and we make sure that if there's a little bit less of that, there's a little bit more of that over there. And then we're always going to constantly, constantly balance it, which is how it should be. So right now I am saying no to some things. Saying no to a lot of things, actually, because I feel a responsibility to be at home. Not all the time, obviously, because I'm traveling, but enough of the time. And that's a trade off. And I don't love it. But I also understand that it is the. A moment in time and that there are other important things and that life is long, hopefully, and that there is time for that trade off to shift.

Nicole Lapin (20:59)

There will be time. And in 10 years you can jet set your face off.

Jason Pfeiffer (21:03)

Exactly. I can just set my face off.

Nicole Lapin (21:04)

I can go, go to a speaking event around the world for $5 if

Jason Pfeiffer (21:08)

you in the Pittsburgh airport for six hours waiting for my delayed flight, as much as I want, which is exactly what happened yesterday. Stick around. Help Wanted will be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

Nicole Lapin (21:30)

When you talk about speaking engagements and there have been some that I have seen and have sent your way, and you're very, very clear about how much is it going to cost? How much am I going to be away? You have your own calculus about the

Jason Pfeiffer (21:44)

cost benefit analysis, and that is driven in very large part by a recognition of family obligation, which is to say that I am setting my fees based in large part off of conversations that I've had with Jen, my wife, about what is financially worth me being away from the family and her having to juggle the kids by herself. That number changes as time goes on. When we now evaluate speaking opportunities, which is really how it comes one will come in and I will go to her and I will say, okay, I've got an offer in this city, at this date, at this Price, here's what else is going on that month. I already have two trips and we have these things. Is this worth it? Sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes the answer is no. And the reason I like thinking about it like that is because it's really consistent with how to approach work with family. We've started talking here about how to talk to kids about work, but the flip side of that is how to keep your kids in mind at work. How do you infuse these ideas both into everything that you're doing? And then there are going to be trade offs that come and go. But I think as long as you create a consistent understanding for yourself about what's important and then you communicate that to all sides. When somebody doesn't offer me enough money for me to get on a plane, I explain to them, I would love to do this. This sounds great. I cannot do it because taking this trip means leaving my kids at home with my wife. And we have an agreement about what is worth that stress on the family. And this just does not meet that level. And people always totally understand.

Nicole Lapin (23:33)

Do they sometimes give you more?

Jason Pfeiffer (23:35)

Yeah, it's happened. Or they just literally don't have the budget. But they are. They always tell me they really appreciate that and understand it. I actually bring my kids up in these contexts a lot. I was just at a speaking gig where they paid me extra to stick around for a luncheon after my talk. But the flight schedule was such that I had to cut the luncheon short in order to catch the flight that would get me home before my kids got home from school. Otherwise I'd be getting home later and I didn't want to. And so that's how I explained it to the event organizers. They totally got it. They still paid me extra for the luncheon and I was just there for half the amount of time that they wanted me to be the attendees. Exactly what happened. I was like, look, I wish that I could be here the entire time. And I'm going to have to split in 35 minutes because it's the only way to catch the flight that gets me home before my kids get home from school. That solicited a round of AWS from everyone in the room. And so everyone gets it. I am talking about my kids with my work, and now I am also at home talking about my work with my kids.

Nicole Lapin (24:41)

I am so reticent to bring this back to a gendered conversation because I feel like I've brought this up a lot lately.

Jason Pfeiffer (24:48)

I actually like that you do that. By the way. Because I march through the world as a dude and I don't know, like, I'm not always aware of when a thing that I can take for granted is actually a thing that is granted to me.

Nicole Lapin (25:03)

Because when you were talking about it, I was like, yeah, they're like, oh, look at that involved dad. Meanwhile, I feel like if I went on stage and was like, I have to get back to my kids, that it would not be a round of applause. It'd be like, why aren't you home with your kid right now?

Jason Pfeiffer (25:17)

Really? Have you ever tested it? Well, I mean, I haven't. Because you haven't had a kid for that long. But I would be very interested to know what happens if you do.

Nicole Lapin (25:25)

And I also think it depends on the audience if it's. Yeah, I don't know. I probably will test it at some point. There's a lot of mom on mom hate.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (25:34)

Right.

Nicole Lapin (25:35)

So you think it was like a

Jason Pfeiffer (25:36)

female audience that it would go over more poorly?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (25:38)

No, there's also.

Nicole Lapin (25:39)

I don't know. Yeah, I think maybe a female audience would go over more poorly. And some of that is performative. And I've seen some, like female CEOs bring their babies on stage. And I wonder what point that makes. But I agree it may be less depends on the makeup of the audience, gender wise and more on how traditional or conservative they are, maybe what region they're located in. Is it different in the South? Is it not? I don't know yet. But I have a feeling that the way you frame it is endearing because you're going to be an involved dad. But I don't know if there's the same kudos that you get as a mom because there are these memes that show, like, mom says the same types of things that you would hear a dad get praised for. Stayed at home with the kids all by myself.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (26:32)

Bathe the kids, put them to bed.

Jason Pfeiffer (26:34)

Right. Because it is. And I've experienced this on both sides. Sides of this, that the bar, like, where the expectation is for dads is super low. And so that manifests in two ways. Number one, it means that doing basic dad responsibilities then has, like, far surpassed that bar. And everyone cheers you on for doing the basics. The thing that annoys me is when the assumption is that I am a incompetent dad, which is I don't really see so much anymore, but I would see it all the time when my kids were really young. And here is a classic case. You will learn. Daughter is old enough. Well, actually, you know, What? Maybe this is only for boys. I don't know if this is a boy thing or if this is a little kid thing, but my two boys both refuse to wear a winter jacket. Just refuse. Will not put it on. It is freezing cold out and they just won't wear it. And they're also not displaying any signs of being cold. They're like, it's not cold. It's hot out. At some point, you just can't force them to wear a winter jacket. So now we will be walking down the street in Brooklyn and it is really cold out and my kid is not in a jacket. And if I am by myself with the kid, I guarantee you that people look at me and they say, it's very cold out. He should have a jacket. And it's like, yeah, I know. I'm not an idiot. Actually, I'm holding the jacket in case they put it on, but I cannot get them to put it on. And I think that is because people see the dad and they're like, ugh, this dad doesn't know how to dress his own kids. And it's like, no, I know. I'm very aware. So that's how it's shown up for me.

Nicole Lapin (28:14)

And to be clear, they won't put it on for Jen either.

Jason Pfeiffer (28:17)

No, they won't put it on for either of us.

Nicole Lapin (28:18)

But I'm glad that you talked to Jen about all of these issues because Jen's happiness is a very key factor in all of this.

Jason Pfeiffer (28:24)

It's critical. None of this could happen without it.

Nicole Lapin (28:26)

And the way that she's with the kids when you're away, you really prioritize her buy in so she's not resentful of you. And so back to my clickbait article. The number one indicator of a child's happiness is the happiness of the mother is really factored in here. Yeah, because she's like, on board. Daddy's doing this thing. I don't know what she says for all of us. And he misses us.

Jason Pfeiffer (28:49)

And yeah, I don't think it really comes up that much anymore. Like, I don't think she's doing that kind of counseling at home because at this point now, it's been a couple years. It's just like regular business as usual at home. I consult with her. And talking about it with Jen is complicated because she knows that my default is that I really want to do these. If somebody invites me to do a talk and they're going to pay me money, I want to do it. And she does not want to stand in that way. And so funny, we have to have this thing where she knows that I am then ultra attuned to any hesitation that she has in saying yes. A good example of this is that recently I got an offer to speak on whatever day it was. And we looked at the calendar and it's Yom Kippur. I don't care about Yom Kippur because I don't care about Jewish holidays. But. But Jen does care and had a inkling of a thought, which she had not yet expressed to me, that she would like the family to do something for Yom Kippur, just like some kind of act of service or something with the kids. And. And so she like hesitated in saying yes to this. And I said, did you want to do something on Yom Kippur? And she was like, you know, I was sort of thinking about it, but also, it's a lot of money. You shouldn't turn it down. And I said, let me see if there's another option, because oftentimes, actually there is, because these events are usually multi day. And so they're offering me one day, but sometimes there's. I could do it the next day. And so I went back to the agent. As it turns out, I could get the gig on the next day. And so we moved it. And so I will be with the family, Yong Kapoor, and then I will take this gig. But you know, honestly, I would have just turned the business down to stay home with Yom Kippur, which to talk about resentment would have been, honestly a small moment of resentment because I don't care about Yom Kippur at all. And now I'm thinking about giving up this opportunity and the money. But you know what? Other opportunities will come, Other money will come when you have a kind of abundance approach to it. It's fine. You can let some of these things go. And I have. I've actually turned out a whole bunch of work this year because it overlapped with a family thing or because we were going to be traveling or whatever. And I feel like there's a sense of accomplishment in being at a place where I can prioritize family over work. I used to prioritize work over family in a way to build the work, and now I've got the work to a place where I can say no to some of the work to prioritize the family, which is an interesting kind of other half of the circle that I didn't really think about when I was building it.

Nicole Lapin (31:32)

So, Jason, what problem are you solving?

Jason Pfeiffer (31:34)

Oh, instead of what do I want to be when I grow up?

Nicole Lapin (31:39)

Because I guess the problems that you're solving are the difference that you're making. You can delay them. They're not urgent.

Jason Pfeiffer (31:46)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (31:47)

You're solving problems at home.

Jason Pfeiffer (31:49)

I don't know. I think of myself as solving two sets of problems. Problem set number one was to create meaningful work for myself that I find deeply satisfying to do and that relies upon me as a thinker and individual. That really mattered to me. And then to have found a way to do that while solving the problem of people who need some help and guidance. It's abstract, but that's kind of the problem that I'm solving. I don't really have a good articulation of it. I don't know. The problem that I'm solving is that I'm going to be home for Yom Kippur. That's it. Problem solved.

Nicole Lapin (32:28)

The problem that you're solving is you're going to fast for a whole day.

Jason Pfeiffer (32:31)

Yeah. The problem that I'm solving is that I'm still married in my. My kids still listen to me. That feels like every day. If I can achieve that, then we've done all right. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason

Sponsor/Ad Voice (32:53)

Pfeiffer and me, Nicole Lapin.

Nicole Lapin (32:55)

Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline at Help wantedoneynewsnetwork for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram @moneynews and tiktokoneynewsnetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

Jason Pfeiffer (33:13)

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

Nicole Lapin (33:15)

All right, well, talk to you soon.

Jason Pfeiffer (33:27)

Sa.