Loading summary
Transcript126 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:07]
B
This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.
- [00:13]
A
Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Laffitt. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.
- [00:21]
B
And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.
- [00:26]
A
Then it starts now.
- [00:28]
B
So, Nicole, today I am told you are going to tell me a story. Is that correct? A story. A story of sorrow and of being ghosted. And the point of this is ultimately to get to a question of what do you do when someone who you trust has given you a referral, like, you should work with that person? That person's going to be great. That person is exactly who you want to hire. And then you hire them and it turns out to be an absolute disaster. What do you do about it? About that? Because now it's like personal connections and disastrous work, but I don't know what actually happened. You just told me that something was a real disaster.
- [01:07]
A
What a tease. That's what they call a tease in podcasting.
- [01:10]
B
You know, I just like to get people excited up front. All right, so you're going to tell me this story and then we'll unpack what you should actually do.
- [01:18]
A
Okay. Yeah. Because I think we've all been asked or have asked for referrals or recommendations for all sorts of things. Contractors, nail people, PR people. It runs the gamut. And so the story of sorrow includes ghosting, but I am married, so it doesn't have to do with that kind of ghosting. This is the first time that I've been ghosted professionally. I don't even know that's the first.
- [01:45]
B
Time I've been ghosted professionally. A million times, really.
- [01:47]
A
But in a active partnership. Okay, let me explain. So went to New York was great to see you. I know that this is heartbreaking, but didn't only go to New York to see you. I'm appalled that that is reason enough. Went to New York primarily to interview Ray Dalio.
- [02:07]
B
Uh huh.
- [02:08]
A
He was on my professional bucket list basically when I started this company as one of the milestones of success for Money News Network. So it was a big deal.
- [02:18]
B
Vidalio, billionaire hedge fund guy extraordinaire, but then on to write a series of bestselling books that are very philosophical and he's a big deal.
- [02:29]
A
So we go to New York and do the interview and it is awesome. He says a lot of things he's never said before because he has been out doing press for the books, as you mentioned, and other things, but he really opened up. He talked about personal things he hadn't talked about before or said he wasn't going to talk about ever again, like the death of his oldest son. So we finished the interview and we asked somebody that we're actively working with, she's a freelancer of ours, for a recommendation of somebody who could help us pull the best clips and feed them out to press. Because a lot of podcasts get clipped down, get pushed out to press.
- [03:13]
B
You see, it picked up, this famous person said this really interesting thing and that can get some attention and then it can drive back to the podcast, which we should say if someone wants to listen to you and Ray Dalio, that is on your other podcast, not this one.
- [03:28]
A
Does it hurt you when you say that you would have other podcasts?
- [03:31]
B
It would, yeah, it would hurt me more if you had another co host, but you don't because the other podcast is a solo show. So it's fine anyway. It's called Money Real.
- [03:39]
A
It would hurt me too if you had another co host.
- [03:42]
B
But we don't.
- [03:42]
A
So we don't.
- [03:43]
B
This is the only place we're on the same page. Yes, perfect.
- [03:45]
A
So yes, you can listen to that. It is a glorious two part episode on Money Rehab. So we asked this woman that we work with for a recommendation for somebody who could help push this out far and wide as it deserved to be pushed.
- [04:02]
B
Right. So basically, hey, I need someone to just get as much attention for this awesome interview with Ray Dalio as possible. And this person that you trust says, I know exactly the person to hire.
- [04:15]
A
Totally right. And so she gave us a recommendation for somebody who has done this so many times. We get on the phone with her, she answers immediately. She talks about all of her bona fides. Is it bona fides?
- [04:31]
B
I never know the answer to that. Bonafide. Bona fides. Bonafides. He talks about all our bonafides.
- [04:40]
A
So sells it really hard, you know, has worked within space because we've actually done quite well and getting pickup with some of the weekly magazines. So you know, Us Weekly, the Post, those types of outlets. We've done quite well. Entrepreneur always picks us up because we have connection.
- [05:03]
B
What's that?
- [05:03]
A
You know, somebody there we have it in, which is so, so wonderful. But other entrepreneur esque outlets, you know, we needed some help with because I don't think Us Weekly is picking up Ray Dalio.
- [05:16]
B
Right.
- [05:17]
A
So that was the point.
- [05:18]
B
Yeah, you need somebody who can Break you into different markets and you've got hot, hot content.
- [05:25]
A
Hot, hot content. So we talk to this woman.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah.
- [05:29]
A
We tell her about our hot business goss. And she says, I'll think about a price because normally it's a retainer, but I just wanted to do a test here and we said if, you know, you knock this test out of the park, we can talk about, you know, more of a formal retainer. She works with a lot of other, you know, business type podcasts. Cool, cool. She comes back to us with a price is a. It was a really high price, Morgan. Was it 3,000. She wanted to charge 3,000, which was.
- [05:59]
B
To basically send a bunch of emails to me.
- [06:01]
A
It was sticker shock. I took a moment with it. I talked to my husband Jared about it. I was like, I don't know if we should spend this much money. It's a lot of money that we didn't budget to promote this. And he said, you know, this was on your bucket list. Just go for it. This is a big one for you.
- [06:17]
B
I just want to second Jared's attitude there. Mike, I've repeated this to you before, which is my dad said this. He probably just said it like once during childhood, but I repeat it over and over again, which is, what's money for? What's money for? Right. You know, should we take the vacation? What's money for? And so I feel like Jared is right. This is really important. You want to do this right. You don't interview Ray Dalio every day. So do it right. Spend the money, you know, like that's valuable.
- [06:43]
A
Roy Feifer. I'm watching my bag. The new host of Money Rehab. Okay. My work husband and my real husband agree. Go for it. So go for it. And you know, Morgan is much more organized than I am. You know, we ask for a spreadsheet of outlets that we could go out to, she could go out to, we could divvy up. But time is of the essence. We need to go after this. And she had suggested doing it the day before. And I, you know, asked many times, like, do you have the bandwidth for this to go out and crush it?
- [07:17]
B
Do you send her a check?
- [07:19]
A
No, I would have happily sent a check if she responded, which cutting to the end of the story. But we engage, or at least I thought we engaged and sent her clips. She listened to the interview. We all worked together to pull some of the best moments. She put together a list of outlets in this spreadsheet. Never ended up filling it out because she just stopped responding. So huh.
- [07:50]
B
So in other words, I don't know.
- [07:51]
A
If you've been ghosted in this way where you're actively in a project and then somebody stops responding. I totally get not responding to cold emails and things like that. That's one thing. Actively being in a professional relationship where money is supposed to be exchanged and whatnot feels really weird.
- [08:11]
B
You get this warm intro to this person. She gets on the phone immediately. She's, yes, let's definitely do this. In fact, I will change the way in which I usually work to accommodate you, and here's my fee. You say, yes, I will pay you that amount of money. And she says, let's get going. And then you start the project, and then she just one day disappears.
- [08:31]
A
Yes. And it was. So I went back and looked, and the last email that she sent was on May 23rd. I wrote back on May 23rd. Nothing. I wrote back on May 27th. So three emails?
- [08:48]
B
Yeah.
- [08:49]
A
With no response.
- [08:50]
B
Did you have a phone number for her?
- [08:53]
A
I had a phone number for her earlier in the thread when I didn't hear back and the episode was coming out, I called her and I made sure she was good with all of it. So wrote back, you know, where are we with, you know, some of this feedback? Just checking back in here. You know, Morgan was checking back in, chiming in, how you doing? And nothing. And we didn't pay her because I. We never heard from her. We didn't get anything. No money was exchanged. It just died at the Vine. Aside from it making me feel bad, because this was a big deal and I wanted to crush it. You know, we still work with the woman who introduced us to her. Do we go back to her? Is that, yes, something we should say?
- [09:42]
B
The next steps to me seem so obvious.
- [09:44]
A
What are the next steps?
- [09:46]
B
The first next step is to go back to the person who you got the referral from and say, hey, this person was really great, and then abruptly disappeared. Do you know if they're okay?
- [10:02]
A
Are they alive? Yeah, maybe. That's the question.
- [10:05]
B
No, like, legit. Are they alive, Morgan?
- [10:07]
A
Did we check the obituaries, or is she okay?
- [10:10]
B
Like, she might.
- [10:11]
A
I mean, I always feel like we people, you know, go to the worst case scenario, and that's never the case. Nobody's ever died.
- [10:21]
B
No, maybe. Oh, let me. I will tell you a story of someone who died. I mean, that kind of gives away the punchline. So I just literally heard this story from a newsletter reader of mine named Nancy, Nancy Salomon, who's a studio potter. She was telling Me that early in her career, one of her wholesale customers stopped paying her. And she followed her repeatedly, heard nothing, didn't know what to do. And then a few months later, gets a check from the guy's widow. And, you know, she didn't know it was the widow, but she got a message saying that the guy was sick and had died. And Nancy told me, I wish I had known because I would have left them alone. But this has now become a story that she shares when other customers disappear for some period of time. The reason she told me this was because one of her recent customers had stopped paying. She sent a gentle nudge. Person wrote back, said, I promise I'll pay. But then another month went by, no payment. And so Nancy sent another email. And instead of being angry or demanding, she started it by saying, I want to tell you a story. And then told this story about the previous customer who didn't pay and who then she later learned had died. And then said, I just want to make sure that nothing catastrophic is happening to you. I just want to see if you're okay. Yeah. And the person wrote back. And actually, I was. While we were talking about this, I just pulled up the email that Nancy sent me. So she said, I'm just going to read from Nancy's email. She said, I got the kindest email back saying, it is true. We never truly know what other people were experiencing. My customer was healthy, but his business was suffering and he had just laid people off. He paid me, though. I know that if I had not reached out to him on a personal level, my 1700 doll bill would have stayed at the bottom of the pile. And I had a slightly, though not quite similar experience recently where I had hired company to come and clean our washing machine. And the guy shows up and he's like, your washing machine gasket is moldy and it needs a full replacement. And we were like, okay. And so we paid him for the washing machine gasket, and he said he would come back a couple days later and install it. And we said, great, see you in a few days. And then never heard from him. And a couple of weeks go by, we're like, where is that guy? And so I called the company and it went to voicemail. And then I waited a day, I called the company, went to voicemail, and now I'm sending emails and I'm calling multiple times a day, and nothing, Nothing, nothing, nothing. After a week of this, I get in touch with the company's corp. It was a franchise, so, you know, there's like a local version of it, and then there's the national version. And I got in touch with the head of the franchise, and that's when I learned that the company, the franchise that I had contacted had what, gone out of business? Like, they were done. They were gone. So, you know, like, that's pretty catastrophic for whoever was running that. And now the. The larger franchise is, like, helping me. But anyway, the point is, aside from whether or not this person has gone through something catastrophic, you have a excuse to reach out to the person who had originally sent you this person's way and not be like, hey, you gave me a bad referral. Screw you. Instead, you can just be like, hey, that person who you would introduce me to just disappeared. Do you know if they're okay and could you get in touch with them? And now you're reaching out because you want the work done, but also you're concerned, and you have no other way of reaching, and it's got a good human cover to it. So that would have been what I would do. What did you guys do? You just gave up?
- [13:52]
A
I mean, at some point, I thought we should take a hint. Like, she didn't want to work with us. She created this spreadsheet, and all of it was blank. So that indicates that she do anything and she didn't want the job anymore and maybe didn't want to tell us. I don't know. You know, I can't force a woman to go pitch a podcast she doesn't want to pitch for whatever reason. So assuming she's alive and well and her family's okay and her, you know, business is okay and whatever else, that was a more realistic interpretation of what happened. Let's make sure this woman is alive and well and, you know, there's no pox in her house. I don't know.
- [14:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like.
- [14:41]
A
You have to make sure that you.
- [14:42]
B
Have some data points here, which is that a person that you trusted has referred you so, which means that this person presumably has either some personal experience with the person that they referred to you to or at least has heard good things or something. So that's a good data point. And the second data point is that this person was very responsive up until the moment that they weren't. Now, it is possible that she is just chilling somewhere and just doesn't want to do your thing. Maybe she really hated the interview with Ray Dalio. I don't know. But I think that it is more likely that something bad, bad happened. And the person who is Actually, best positioned to try to discover that would be the person who referred you, because maybe they have another way of reaching, or maybe they have a mutual friend or whatever.
- [15:27]
A
Okay, well, she responds right away, so I'm just gonna text her.
- [15:31]
B
Text. Oh, yeah, text right now. Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Health Wanted. Let's get to it.
- [15:42]
A
Okay. Sent. I'm sure she'll respond very quickly. The other component to this was when you make a referral, does your reputation now ride on that referral? So let's say she's alive and well and happy and healthy and was just like, I hate Nicole. I hate Morgan. I hate Ray Dalio. I don't want to do this.
- [16:06]
B
Sure.
- [16:07]
A
Whatever. Is that a bad reflection on her as the giver of the introduction, as the maker of the introduction? Does she now worry that her role is in jeopardy?
- [16:23]
B
Did you already get a response?
- [16:25]
A
I did. Omg, that's weird. Let me check in.
- [16:28]
B
There you go. See, she's on the case. Action movement. I can't wait to hear what happens next.
- [16:37]
A
But the reason I think I hesitated with it is because to what extent is she responsible for this, the continuation of this relationship? Right. Like, she gave the recommendation, something's fishy. Now I'm putting her back in the middle, which, you know, ends up happening. Also, when somebody sets two people up, like, often they become the middle person and they don't need to be, or maybe they don't want to be. She made the introduction. Now, does she have to be the go between, between grownup people?
- [17:10]
B
No, she doesn't. But this is an unusual circumstance. And I think that the reason why it's okay to reach out to her is because it sounds like it is legitimately possible that something very bad had happened. Because professionals don't usually completely disappear like this. If it was me and I had told you about this great person you have to work with, and then that person turns out to have disappeared or something, I actually would want you to tell me because I feel now somewhat responsible for having sent you down the wrong path. But I do think that it is incumbent upon the person who makes the referral, the person who is saying, I know who you should talk to to set some kind of expectations. I'll give you an example. I generally only refer people to those who I have worked with directly myself or have a extremely high degree of confidence in for some other reason that I feel like is verifiable. If that isn't the case, then I will sometimes still recommend. But I will recommend with caution. I will say, for example, I think this person is really smart, but I've never worked with them myself, so I don't know what they're like to work with. But I think that it's at least worth a conversation and you can decide for yourself. I'll say something like that. And here's a great example is there is a public speaking coach named Nasheen Chen. And Nasheen recently posted. About me making a referral to her, which is why I feel comfortable saying this. But anyway, I love Nasheen. She's great. I just met her on LinkedIn but she's really smart and nice and I've talked to Nasheen a couple times. Turns out we have some mutual friends and she's a public speaking coach. My friend Tom one day emailed me and was like, hey, I am looking for a public speaking coach. Do you know anyone? And I said to him, well, I'm friendly with this woman Nasheen who I really talking to. I. She hasn't coached me, so I don't really know what she's like as a coach, but she seems to know what she's doing and it's probably worth a conversation. And Tom says, great. And so Tom and Nasheen get connected. And by the way, I love the. I love writing the email where I connect people. Do you do this where like you write the email to connect to people and it's an opportunity to like praise both of them because usually you don't write praise to people randomly, but when you're introducing, you can. I like that. It's really nice. It's like a nice genre of email. So I introduced Tom and Nasheen and then a couple months later I get an email from Tom and he's like, Nasheen is amazing. Like, I have loved working with her and I just wanted to say thanks because this has been really great. Okay, now it's a different story. Tom loved her and I trust Tom. So now I feel like there's validation. Nasheen's not just a nice person, but she also has now been verified as a good referral. So now I send more people to Nosheen and that to me is how I always do it the first time. This is a good person. I. I don't know. You gotta try for yourself. But it's a starting point. And then later I will fully endorse somebody. So I think that you need to create expectations when you refer. And either way, I still feel like I am a little bit on the hook for what happens.
- [20:32]
A
Interesting. And so have you ever had a bad referral come back to you?
- [20:38]
B
Yeah, I have. And I wanted to understand what had gone wrong. And so I talked to both sides. I talked to the person I had referred, my friend who had asked me for a referral, and then the person who I sent business to. And what I discovered is that this was just a very bad professional pairing. Like, the expectations were different and the work styles were different. And so then I just reported back to each other, and I was like, okay, X. I talked to Y. Y. I talked to X. I think I understand what went wrong here. I think this was just. This turned out to be like a bad pairing. I'm sorry. I should have seen that myself. But, you know, no harm, no foul. We've all learned an important lesson, and everyone was fine, but I felt like I needed to step in. I feel like that's part of my role here.
- [21:21]
A
But that's a lot of effort.
- [21:23]
B
It is a lot.
- [21:24]
A
You were just trying to be a good, you know, business Samaritan, and now you're, like, talking to both sides and apologizing.
- [21:33]
B
I think this is why some people just don't make referrals.
- [21:36]
A
Yeah. That happened to me recently at a totally other space I am rebuilding, as you know, and have a lot of contractors, handymen around, doing various wonderful, helpful tasks for us to make our new house a home. And I asked one of the contractors for a referral for a housekeeper in the area, and he said no. Yeah. It was so interesting. It was like, I don't do that anymore because I got burned.
- [22:09]
B
Yeah.
- [22:09]
A
And so perhaps I could ask what happened? But perhaps, you know, I interpreted that as he made a referral that was a bad referral, and then he stopped potentially getting the work because the person took it out on him.
- [22:29]
B
There is a next level in referrals that I have explored a little bit, which is I like making referrals because I like sending business to people. I like that I'm in a position where I know a lot of good people. And I also am asked a lot of questions about who should I hire for this thing or that thing. So I like.
- [22:50]
A
Very good. Like, corporate matchmaker.
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, I love being a corporate matchmaker. Now, this comes with some risk. It hasn't worked out every time, but it occurred to me in some categories where I am being asked a lot for the same kind of referral and where I am directing people to the same, like, couple of sources.
- [23:10]
A
Oh, you should get a finder's fee.
- [23:11]
B
There's a finder's Fee. There's money involved here. Yeah.
- [23:13]
A
And have you arranged that?
- [23:14]
B
I have. This happens a lot when people ask me for publicist recommendations. So I have a number of publicists who I think are good. A lot of them are friends I'm not going to ask for money from. I'm just happy to send them business because that's a good friend thing to do. But there is. There's one PR agency that I just think they're smart, and I got to know the people there, you know, and I just. I like them. And so we set up a referral fee where I get a percentage of new business that comes in through me. When somebody asks me for a referral. I never only give the agency that I have a deal with because I still think that to do right by the person who's asking, I should give them options. So it depends on what they're doing. But let's say they're a tech company. So if they're a tech company, I'll. I'll suggest the agency that I have a deal with, but I'll also often suggest a childhood friend who has a boutique agency that serves tech companies. And I do not ask my childhood friend for money, because that's not right. And then sometimes one other, if it feels relevant, and then I just see how the cards fall. And sometimes the person picks the agency that I have a relationship with and I make some money, and sometimes they pick somebody else and I don't make money, and that's fine. But I want to. I feel like I want to do it with dignity here. Like, I don't want to just send you to the place that I'm going to make money from. I want to give you the options so that you pick the right one for you.
- [24:41]
A
Two questions.
- [24:42]
B
Yeah.
- [24:42]
A
Question one. Do you disclose that you are getting a finder's feed?
- [24:47]
B
I do not.
- [24:49]
A
Is that intentional, or have you thought through that? Do you want to be transparent about it? Maybe they'll listen to the show and now they'll know.
- [24:55]
B
Well, or they'll be guessing which is which. I don't because I feel a little weird about it, but I also feel like it's mitigated by giving them options. Right. So if I give them three options and one of them I get paid for, but I just tell them here are three that I think are worth a conversation, and you decide, then, you know, it's really up to them about which is the best one. And if they happen to pick the one that I'm making money from, Then that's fortuitous for me, but it's not where I was steering them.
- [25:28]
A
Okay.
- [25:29]
B
That's my logic. Do you think that's sound? Does that sound moral?
- [25:32]
A
Sound? Yeah, I think that that feels right. Question 2. Do you think they'll like Ray Dalio?
- [25:41]
B
You know, I could direct you to the one that where I get a finder's fee. I will profit off of this. I'll send you an email with a recommendation.
- [25:51]
A
We have to come back and just clarify that this woman is okay. 99% sure she's okay.
- [25:57]
B
Yeah, we don't know. I actually. I don't think that it's 99%. I think that something is wrong. That'd be my bet. My money is on something is wrong. Well, let's see. We have Morgan.
- [26:07]
A
Where's your money?
- [26:08]
C
I think she's totally fine.
- [26:09]
B
She thinks she's fine. Okay, so it's two against one. All right, well, we've got a few weeks until this episode could potentially air, so maybe there an addendum to put at the end of this.
- [26:19]
A
Just a quick update, friends. This woman is fine.
- [26:22]
C
She was on LinkedIn four days ago commenting on a post. Congrats, Steph.
- [26:27]
B
Oh, well, that is new information.
- [26:30]
A
Morgan's really good at sleuthing, so she.
- [26:32]
C
Still at least has her fingers.
- [26:34]
A
She can still type or she is.
- [26:37]
B
Paying for AI commenting service.
- [26:40]
A
I have a feeling that this is going to end like the bad introduction that you made where this woman Stacy is gonna talk to and she's then gonna talk to us, and somehow it's gonna be like maybe we were too demanding and wanted a spreadsheet and that wasn't her style or something. That's like the most likely potential. Or she's just a stupid PR lady, which is a dime a dozen.
- [27:06]
C
I felt like you felt a tone change when you negotiated the price.
- [27:11]
A
Really? I don't.
- [27:13]
C
I think so. Yeah, I do. Which that wasn't when she started ghosting us. She still was responsive even after you guys landed on the price, but I think that the tone shifted then.
- [27:25]
A
Well, for the negotiation, it was like just adding another, so we had her. Well, she didn't do any of them. Do another episode to push out for the same price. Yeah.
- [27:38]
C
So we were like, if you can do it for two episodes for this price. But I feel like her tone shifted then.
- [27:44]
B
I think even if everything is fine, I still think that it was right for you to reach out to the person who made the referral so that they know that this is what possibly happens. With this person and they don't refer. Again, I would want to know, as somebody who refers business to people, whether the outcome is good or not, Because I want to make good referrals and I don't want to make bad referrals. So if something bad happens, you should tell me.
- [28:12]
A
And what do you think happens with the people that just don't make referrals? Have you encountered that where you ask somebody for a referral and you heard back, I don't do that.
- [28:23]
B
No, I've never heard that before.
- [28:24]
A
Interesting.
- [28:25]
B
Yeah. But I can understand. I think what happened is that they got burned multiple times and they just said, screw it, and I throw people. And I think that probably also. It probably depends on the industry. The contractor world is crazy, right? It's a bunch of sharks. And I just think it's probably just so easy to get burned. Whereas a lot of professional services are not quite like that, you know, Like, I mean, if I meet a good speaking coach, what are the chances of the speaking coach is a real asshole? I guess. I guess maybe a lot. I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I don't know. I've never encountered that. And that seems a little nuts to.
- [29:03]
A
Me, but I will, I guess, like, the cost benefit. You are so special. But I don't know if you were so annoyed that you got caught in the middle of the bad referral. I would have been, like, rather annoyed if I was, like, the go between then of these people working together and then, like, being blamed for the problem.
- [29:25]
B
Was that they were both being apologetic to me. Right? Like, they were. Yeah, it was like the person who asked me for the work was then, like, apologizing because something seems to have gone wrong with the person that they. I referred. And so I just felt like I needed to understand what was going on. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.
- [29:54]
A
Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@helpwantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at MoneyNews Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance.
- [30:15]
B
Oh, I didn't sign up for that.
- [30:16]
A
All right, well, talk to you soon.