"How Soon Can I Follow Up With a New Business Friend Without Being Weird? Help!"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Help Wanted – "How Soon Can I Follow Up With a New Business Friend Without Being Weird? Help!"

Release Date: February 4, 2025
Host/Authors: Jason Feifer & Nicole Lapin
Description: On this episode of Help Wanted, Jason Feifer and Nicole Lapin delve into the delicate art of maintaining new professional relationships without coming across as intrusive or "weird." Through personal anecdotes and expert insights, they offer actionable advice to listeners navigating the complexities of modern networking.

---

Introduction to the Dilemma

The episode kicks off with Nicole Lapin sharing a personal story that sets the stage for the discussion. She recounts her interaction with "Susan," a CEO of a well-known company, highlighting the excitement and subsequent uncertainty she faced in maintaining the budding professional relationship.

Nicole Lapin [05:03]:
"I feel like it, you know, that magic thing... when you meet someone, you're like, this person could be a friend."

The Struggle with Follow-Ups

Nicole details her exchanges with Susan, from initial LinkedIn messages to scheduling follow-up meetings. Despite positive interactions, Nicole grapples with determining the appropriate timing to suggest another meeting without appearing overly eager.

Nicole Lapin [06:59]:
"I don't know when it's appropriate to suggest getting together next. Like, does that mean that I could be like, we got together. We had lunch in January, in December. We had lunch in December. Is it appropriate to say, let's get together in January?"

This uncertainty reflects a broader issue many professionals face: balancing the desire to nurture relationships with the fear of being perceived as pushy.

Changing Social Dynamics and Loneliness

The conversation shifts to the evolving nature of friendships, especially in the context of growing up and shifting priorities. Both hosts acknowledge the increasing feelings of isolation and the challenges in building and maintaining meaningful connections.

Nicole Lapin [05:16]:
"Do you feel, like, isolated?"

Taryn Southern [10:00]:
"You do not remember the contents exactly, you walk away with a sense of kinship with that person."

Strategies for Maintaining Relationships

Taryn Southern introduces the concept of "bageling" (a term coined by Nicole), comparing it to social fishing—using subtle cues to gauge someone's interest in deepening a relationship. They discuss the importance of initiating follow-ups and trusting the authenticity of the connection rather than adhering strictly to social norms.

Taryn Southern [12:26]:
"Do what feels authentic to you because that's you actually living the life that you want to create."

Nicole reflects on her aspiration to structure her professional life to foster genuine connections, emphasizing the value of regular interactions in onboarding friends.

Nicole Lapin [14:11]:
"My goal is to structure my professional life such that I feel good about leaving the computer and getting coffee with someone for an hour and a half every day."

Navigating Friendships Across Genders

A significant portion of the episode delves into the nuances of forming friendships with the opposite sex, considering factors like existing relationships and societal perceptions. Taryn shares personal experiences, highlighting how gender dynamics can influence comfort levels and the perception of appropriateness in professional settings.

Taryn Southern [27:16]:
"I couldn't do that with... like, I couldn't do that with men. It would definitely be creepy."

Nicole adds depth to the discussion by sharing her own experience of maintaining a platonic yet deeply connected friendship with Everett Taylor, CEO of Kickstarter, illustrating how consistent cadence fosters genuine bonds.

Nicole Lapin [25:24]:
"I ended up having this great conversation where we're super candid with each other about what we're doing in our careers, what we're thinking and what we want to do next."

Final Advice and Takeaways

As the episode concludes, both hosts encourage listeners to embrace vulnerability and authenticity in their relationships. They stress the importance of taking initiative and not being overly concerned with potential misperceptions, reminding audiences that genuine connections are built on mutual interest and respect.

Taryn Southern [38:03]:
"Be open. Be vulnerable. Lead with authenticity. And the people who love that about you will, you know, they will respond in kind."

Nicole Lapin [38:15]:
"If it blows up in my face, can I blame you?"

The episode wraps up with a light-hearted acknowledgment of their conversation's depth and the ongoing nature of building and sustaining professional friendships.

---

Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Nicole Lapin [05:16]:
  "Do you feel, like, isolated?"

• Nicole Lapin [06:59]:
  "I don't know when it's appropriate to suggest getting together next."

• Taryn Southern [12:26]:
  "Do what feels authentic to you because that's you actually living the life that you want to create."

• Nicole Lapin [14:11]:
  "My goal is to structure my professional life such that I feel good about leaving the computer and getting coffee with someone for an hour and a half every day."

• Taryn Southern [27:16]:
  "I couldn't do that with men. It would definitely be creepy."

• Nicole Lapin [25:24]:
  "We're super candid with each other about what we're doing in our careers, what we're thinking and what we want to do next."

• Taryn Southern [38:03]:
  "Be open. Be vulnerable. Lead with authenticity. And the people who love that about you will, you know, they will respond in kind."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Help Wanted offers a candid exploration of the challenges in nurturing professional friendships in today's fast-paced, often isolating world. Through personal stories and thoughtful dialogue, Jason Feifer and Nicole Lapin provide listeners with valuable insights and practical strategies to foster authentic connections without the fear of overstepping social boundaries.

Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your career, the advice shared in this episode serves as a timely reminder of the importance of authenticity, vulnerability, and proactive engagement in building meaningful relationships.

Transcript

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You're here for tips on leveling up your career, but here's a bonus tip on leveling up your investments.

[Nicole Lapin]

Check out Public Public is an investing.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Platform where you can invest in stocks, options, bonds, ETFs and crypto all in one place. Public is a modern brokerage and has brought innovation to aspects of investing that.

[Nicole Lapin]

Were dinosaur y. I'll give you an example.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Public is one of the only brokerages to offer self directed investing in bonds Treasuries, which have historically been sold primarily through a government website. But with Public you can invest in Treasuries with just a few clicks right from your phone. And Public allows you to make fractional investments in bonds. So before fractional bonds on Public you had to buy government bonds starting with a $1,000 investment at a minimum. And if you wanted to invest in any more than that, you could only invest in $100 increments. Now you can buy bonds for as little as $100 and for any dollar amount on Public. That's just one example of how Public is making it easier to invest. But there are a ton more and you can explore them for [e-mail] helpwanted to get started with your portfolio today, go to public.com helpwanted this is a paid endorsement for public investing. Full disclosure and conditions can be found in the podcast description doesn't it feel.

[Taryn Southern]

Like every time you step out the door you have to pay a fee? I mean it is nuts. I've been traveling a lot for the holidays and the amount of fees I pay just to get from point A to point B, it is mind boggling and it makes it really hard to stick with my spending plan when we're trying to make progress. Life's curveballs often feel like taking one step forward and two steps back. A Chime checking account makes financial progress easier with features like no maintenance fees, fee free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to days early with direct deposit.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Learn [e-mail] helpwanted and once you go.

[Taryn Southern]

To chime.com helpwanted you'll learn more about the fee free overdraft up to $200. And let me tell you, that is such a game changer. Make progress towards a better financial future with Chime.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Open your account in two [e-mail] helpwanted that's chime.com helpwanted Chime feels like Progress.

[Taryn Southern]

Banking Services and Debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA Members FDIC Spot Me Eligibility requirements And overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file Fees apply at out of network ATMs.

[Nicole Lapin]

This is help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.

Entrepreneur Magaz, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

And it starts now.

Okay, Taryn, I want you to think back to the last time that you met someone in some professional capacity but really connected. And you're like, I would like to spend some more time with this person. I, I, I, I think that they could become like a good work friend kind of person. So think, think about that. Do you have someone in mind?

[Taryn Southern]

I do.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay. When did you last see them?

[Taryn Southern]

So ironically, last night.

[Nicole Lapin]

Ah, okay, great. Perfect. Very fresh. When are you going to see them next?

[Taryn Southern]

Probably not for another 10 years. That is because that is the amount of space between the last time I met with this person.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, perfect. Perfect. We have, we have highlighted the thing that I want to talk about today, which is cadence of seeing people because I do not know the appropriate amount of time that is supposed to pass between seeing people. And we're going to dig into this on this episode. I'm very excited. But first, Taryn, let us acknowledge your name is Taryn, which is to say that your name is not Nicole Lapin. You were not my usual co host here. My usual co host, our mutual friend Nicole Lapin is on maternity leave, but you will be familiar to help wanted listeners because you were on last week. Taryn Southern, whose resume is far too long for me to summarize, so let's just say storyteller and AI strategist. It is great to have you back on the show.

[Taryn Southern]

It's so good to be here. I love listening to you and Nicole and so to get to fill her seat. It's a big seat.

[Nicole Lapin]

It is a very, very big seat. Well, you have handled it ably so far and I'm excited to do so again. Okay. I'm excited to dig into this with you because you like me, like many people who listen to the show, we meet a lot of people, right? We meet a lot of people. And we also live in a world that experts keep telling us is lonely. Right? Oh, there's loneliness epidemic and I feel it.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Do you feel it?

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you feel, like, isolated?

[Taryn Southern]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's only increased the past couple of years.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, totally. And for all sorts of reasons. Whatever. We don't have to dig into that now. But I have really struggled with this question of when I connect with someone, when I'm supposed to see them next, such that an actual relationship can be built. So can I. Can I tell you a story of when this most recently happened to me? And we're going to unpack this together.

[Taryn Southern]

Please, let's do it.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay. All right, so here's the saga. I will not use this person's name because I don't want to possibly embarrass them. I don't know. This is really more of an embarrassing story for me, I think, because I've overthought this. But let's just say we're just going to give her a name. Her name is Susan. That's not a real name. Susan is the CEO of a company that you have heard of. I guarantee it. You've heard of it. I got a DM from Susan on LinkedIn, and it was just like, hey.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I love your work.

[Nicole Lapin]

Like, you're just doing great stuff. And I said, thank.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Thank you.

[Nicole Lapin]

That's awesome hearing from you, because I know. I know who you are. And then that was that. And then some amount of time passed. That was a couple months ago. And then Susan sent me a DM and said, hey, I'm putting together a dinner of some interesting people, and I would love for you to come to that dinner. And I replied. And I was like, oh, it kills me to say this, but I cannot do that tonight. Like, I have some family obligation. And she said, oh, no problem. Well, do you want to get lunch? I could do lunch like, the next day. Day. And I said, yeah, I'd love to get lunch. And so we got lunch, and it was great. Susan is wonderful, super smart. Felt like we had a lot to talk about. Like, it just felt like that, you know, that magic thing, Taran, you know, like, you know, when you. When you meet someone, you're like, this person could be a friend, you know?

[Taryn Southern]

Absolutely.

[Nicole Lapin]

It's like, I felt that way about.

[Taryn Southern]

You, Jason, the first time we chatted.

[Nicole Lapin]

That way about you, too.

[Taryn Southern]

There's a kindred spirit.

[Nicole Lapin]

And here we are making a podcast. This is lovely. But also, actually, this is true for you too, though, right? Which is that we connected a long time ago, and, like, half, if not a full year would go by between the times in which we would interact. So okay, so Susan and I have lunch, and it's great. And at the end, soon, soon was like, we were talking. There was something that came up, and she's like, well, we'll have to talk about that next time. And I was like, yeah, that'd be great. Let's. Let's make it next time. And then I texted her to just say, great, great meeting, so fun. And she said, yes. Can't wait to continue the conversation. I want to highlight that. Can't wait to continue the conversation. And then maybe two weeks later, she sent out, because this corresponded with, like, the new year, she sent out this nice message to all of her contacts, was just a general message. And I replied with, you know, so nice you said that thing. And it made me think of this. And she replied again. She was like, we should talk about that when we get together next. And so now there have been a couple times where she's like, we should get together next. And I would like to get together next. But here's the thing, Taryn. I don't know when it's appropriate to suggest getting together next. Like, she has said it twice. She said it twice. But does that mean that I could be like, we got together. We had lunch in January, in December. We had lunch in December. Is it appropriate to say, let's get together in January? Is that too, is that too much February? Do I kick it to March? At what point? Like, and, and this is really, this is really struggling. I'm struggling with this because, you know, when we were in our 20s, you would meet someone and then you'd be like, let's hang out in four hours again.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right?

[Nicole Lapin]

Let's just, we'll just keep hanging out. Like, you should start, like, moving in with people. And as you get older and people are busier, I, I, there's this strange tension between, I think everyone's lonely and everyone feels some kind of sense of disconnect. And Susan and I talked about that exact thing. And, and yet, and yet. I don't know that anyone knows when it is appropriate to see a person again. But if you don't see them often enough, you can't build a real relationship. You don't have the cadence. You forget what you talked about last time. You forget when last time even was. And then you just never see them. And this has happened to me so often where I have a great time with someone, and then I don't know when I'm supposed to follow up, so I don't follow up. And then, like, years go by and that is probably exactly how you didn't see that person that you were thinking of for 10 years. Taryn, what am I supposed to do?

[Taryn Southern]

Oh, my gosh. I have so many thoughts here. It's such a. It's such a simple question with so much subtle nuance. And, you know, I think you hit the nail on the head for, for, for one thing, we're not in our 20s anymore, so we're at a different period in our life. And that means a lot of different variables. And even when we talk about things like appropriateness, every person has a different sort of partnership, and we don't know what the nuances of that partnership are and what that partnership feels is appropriate in terms of business and friendships with the opposite sex, which in this case, it sounds like it's an opposite sex person.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

You know, there's also just how much time and energy you have to actually devote to developing out these new friendships. There's, you know, do you have the desire to physically get together with someone frequently? And it sounds like you do. Actually, a lot of us who went through Covid kind of came out of it and said, I'm, I'm. I'm more introverted than I thought. I'm less interested in maintaining these, these constant relationships, and I'd rather focus on quality versus quantity. And I, I will say I would trust a little bit more in the connection that you have with her in that, you know, you and I went really deep when we had, you know, when we've checked in, and it's like, even if you don't remember the contents exactly, you walk away with a sense of kinship with that person. So I would definitely trust in that. But if you have the desire to have these deeper friendships and to maintain more of a cadence, I think it's absolutely appropriate, I would say the ball's in your court because she invited you to lunch.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

Last time. And that's really kind of on you to create the next invitation. Otherwise, I think she will feel like she's being a little aggressive.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right, right, right. And she's like, signaled it a couple of times, so. No, that's totally true. And I do feel like the ball's in my court. And the thing is that I don't know when I'm supposed to play the ball. So let's say that imagine that you're Susan. Imagine that you're Susan. And everything that I just told you happened. And you and I got lunch for the first time. We just met in December, and now. And now it's January, So it's been about a month. And I say, hey, we should. We should continue the conversation. Do you have time in February? Taryn, do you think, oh, that is a very nice invitation, or do you think, no, no, no, guy, Way too soon?

[Taryn Southern]

It totally depends. I don't think I would feel like it's way too soon if I really felt that there was a, you know, a burgeoning friendship and, and possibly some professional synergies as well, or either of those things. I do think, generally speaking, that as adults, we don't tend to get together with our. Even our closest friends nearly as frequently as we used to.

[Nicole Lapin]

No.

[Taryn Southern]

So. So oddly enough, I do remember. Or at least it's like, it's. It's interesting when people are like, follow up frequently now because it's very rare. And so I think it's. It's not that there's nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's inappropriate, personally.

[Nicole Lapin]

Oh, yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

But I do think it. I do think it will stand out in her mind as, oh, wow, you know, he's. He's really engaged in this friendship more than the average person. I mean, I think, to be honest, I actually think focusing or thinking too hard about what social norms here is actually the wrong way to be thinking about it, because screw the social norms, like, do you and do what feels authentic to you because that's you actually living the life that you want to create. And if someone has a misperception about your friendliness or your eagerness to be friends, like, then they're probably not going to be a good friend to you anyway, right?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true.

[Taryn Southern]

Or what would be your big fear? Is there a fear here that's sitting underneath this?

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, the fear is just being weird.

[Taryn Southern]

But again, like, if someone misperceives your desire to hang out more as you being weird, that's a them problem. That's not a you problem.

[Nicole Lapin]

I guess that's true. Unless. Unless there's some rule that I'm just not aware of. But I think that we've established at the very least that there's not a rule that we're not aware of. I want to go back to something that you had mentioned about people discovering whether or not they were actually more introverted than they thought. I. I am the opposite. I am craving. Craving connection with other people. And I have this goal that I've talked about on the show before. My goal is to structure my professional life such that I feel good about leaving the computer and getting coffee with someone for an hour and a half every day, that's my goal. And thank you. I'm not anywhere near it right now. Anywhere near it.

[Taryn Southern]

Given our conversation going into the podcast, I would say you have a few things to crop up on your list.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yes, that's right. Just before recording this, I was, I was regaling you with boring talk about how busy I am. But so I, I am not there. I really aspire to be there. And you know, you know, I hadn't thought about this, but when I was talking with Susan, I said some version of that, and she said that she also is like trying to find more time to connect with people. And it's interesting because that I am now realizing as I'm saying it out loud, sharing that piece of information with someone who I am connecting with, seeing how they respond to it, is a good indicator perhaps of what my next move should be, because that will tell me if they are more introverted, more extroverted, more hungry, this for this, more not. And so in a way, I'd like, it's like, it's like you're, Are you familiar with the Jewish world, the concept of bageling? No, I, I, I learned this, I learned this from, I know a lot.

[Taryn Southern]

Of things about Jewish culture. That is not one of them.

[Nicole Lapin]

You're about to learn one more. I, I actually only learned this a couple years ago. So bageling is when you meet someone and you're not sure if you're Jewish. You meet someone and you're not sure if they're Jewish too, and you don't want to just come out and ask them. So you start to just drop in little references to see if they pick it up. And if they say something that would indicate that they're Jewish and that is called bageling.

[Taryn Southern]

Also known as fishing.

[Nicole Lapin]

Also known as fishing. But it's more fun when it's bagel.

[Taryn Southern]

More fun with bageling.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, because it's a hyper specific kind of fishing. Right? Yeah. So, so this could be, this, could be this like telling someone something like, you know, I have been trying to like get out and see people more is in a way a kind of social fishing. It's a social bageling. It's a 100%. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a coffeeing. I don't know, some other verb. So that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

[Taryn Southern]

So maybe you just have your Set questions, your bageling questions for when you go into these interactions and you use that to determine. You can almost use a scoring system.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. I like that. Or like how. So if.

[Taryn Southern]

How amenable and interested is this individual in developing a deeper friendship?

[Nicole Lapin]

How many points on the bagel scale it equals how many months have to pass before I follow up with them again? Let me flip this on you because I want to hear you engage with a couple of the things that you had thrown out. So let's start with why has it been 10 years since you saw that. That person who you just caught up with, who you clearly would like to spend more time with, but you have not?

[Taryn Southern]

Yeah, great guy. Met probably 15 years ago in also a different professional context when I was working in entertainment. He's still in entertainment and have kept in touch, but only via social media. Last time I saw him was 10 years ago in London. Now he lived in London.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, that's a good reason to.

[Taryn Southern]

He's got a family.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

And he recently moved back to la. Three years ago. Three years ago, moved back to la. But there's been this kind of attempt to get together and I think he initiated it and to just catch up and reconnect and, you know, I had such a great experience with him whenever it was 10, 12 years ago, meeting in person in London and we just picked right back up where we left off. But there was really no rhyme or reason why it took that long. I mean, I've had many business trips to London. I haven't pinged him to say let's get together. So I would say each situation is so different. But I definitely fall in the camp of people who've become more introverted. I used to be a crazy extrovert in my 20s. Every single evening I had a drinks or a dinner. I loved being out and about and socializing and I don't know what happened to me. But over the past handful of years I've just become far more introverted. I think I am just constantly seeing the cost curve of having to put on clothes, get in my car, drive somewhere, potentially deal with a loud restaurant or blaring light. I'm so sensitive to all of these things. I'm an elderly woman now.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

[Taryn Southern]

I love getting together with people one on one. Love it. I love going to our like homes where it's comfortable. I think for me it's actually just more bracing myself for external elements that makes me feel nervous.

[Nicole Lapin]

So, so you're not, it's not that you're introverted.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Nicole Lapin]

It's just that you don't want the schlep of it.

[Taryn Southern]

I don't want the schlep. I don't like large group gatherings where everyone's kind of having superficial chit chat. I like to go deep with people. I like to be able to hear people. So.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right, because, because you're an elderly person.

[Taryn Southern]

Now and I'm an elder person.

[Nicole Lapin]

You're hard of hearing.

[Taryn Southern]

I get so, you know, someone just asked me if I wanted to do dinner. This is another one of those examples. And they, they offered up an 8pm time slot. And I, I felt an instant panic. Instant panic. Because I like to eat at 6. And then I thought, but is it super rude of me to ask for a two hours earlier of a time slot because of my anxiety about this? But that's how I would, you know, I would do more of these things if I felt like the requests weren't so taxing on my physical body.

[Nicole Lapin]

Huh? Huh? Oh wait, did you ask for the 6pm What'd you do?

[Taryn Southern]

I, I did. I sent back a funny meme that said it was a meme from someone else that said someone just invited me to dinner at 8pm what's wrong with you? Are you something about like am I on cocaine? Are you on cocaine?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

So funny. And they, they got the joke.

[Nicole Lapin]

They acquiesced. You went, you went.

[Taryn Southern]

They acquiesced. They said 6pm Right.

[Nicole Lapin]

So yeah, you got the senior discount. Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back.

[Morgan Lavoy]

This year, there's nothing holding you back from loving your hair again. Hair is so much more than what you see on the surface. It's a reflection of what's happening inside. Let Nutrafol target the key root causes of your thinning hair and help you grow stronger, healthier strands from within. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over 1 million people. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months. With Nutrafol, thinning hair is different for men and women. So a one size fits all approach to hair growth doesn't cut it. Nutrafol has multiple formulas for men and women that are tailored to different life stages such as postpartum or menopause and.

[Taryn Southern]

Lifestyle factors like a plant based lifestyle.

[Morgan Lavoy]

So you can get just what you need. Physician. Formulated with 100% drug free ingredients, Nutrafol supports healthy hair growth from within by targeting key root causes of thinning stress hormones, aging, nutrition, lifestyle and metabolism through whole body health. Start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code Help wanted, find out why over 4,500 health care professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. Nutrafol.com that's spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code help wanted. That's nutrafol.com promo code help wanted.

[Nicole Lapin]

Welcome back to Help wanted. Let's get to it. Okay, you just saw this guy again after 10 years. Did either of you follow up and were like, that was great. We should do that again?

[Taryn Southern]

Yeah, he sent a really nice message after. I mean he was the one that asked for the catch up. He sent a very nice message after and I think we'll probably be in more touch, but I doubt we'll hang.

[Nicole Lapin]

Out because maybe because you're not going to make the effort.

[Taryn Southern]

I would invite him to a housewarming or to a group thing anytime, but I think the reality is that you.

[Nicole Lapin]

Would invite him to the thing that you just said you don't like. That's what you just told me. You're like, yeah, I hate group gatherings. So I guess if I was involved in a group gathering that I hate being a part of, I guess I would invite him. That's what I just heard.

[Taryn Southern]

No, I would hang out with him again.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay.

[Taryn Southern]

But I think there's people in different, different life cycles.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, right.

[Taryn Southern]

I don't have a family and children at this stage. So I'm obviously going to spend more time in friendships with people in that same space. Not that, but of course I have friends that have families and children. I just, I have noted that it's more challenging to maintain those friendships. Right. So I would guess that that's a reason why also we are in professional spaces now.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

[Taryn Southern]

We did connect on a personal level. It wasn't a lot of work talk. So.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right.

[Taryn Southern]

You know.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right. Yeah. Well, that's great. So that almost feels like programmed into that. That relationship, such as it is, is a larger gap in time. You know, the place where I get hung up on and there are lots of people who I meet who are like that, who I like had a perfectly nice time with. And I think it's fine if the next time I see them is three years from now. The reason why Susan is different to Me and falls into a different category, of which there are many other people, is that it just seems like, oh, you know, if. If I spent more time with this person, I think that they would become, like, a bigger friend. Here, here's a version. Here's a version of this, which is. I'll just use his name. Why not? So maybe a year and a half ago or so, I got an email out of absolutely nowhere from Everett Taylor. So Everett Taylor is the CEO of Kickstarter. And he was like, you want to get coffee? And I, Because I work at Entrepreneur, I have this expectation that people just want to talk to me because they want to get press. And. But I thought, well, he seems cool. And so even though I'm going to have to do the annoying thing where I, like, navigate somebody's desire to get press, I'll go get coffee with him. So we sit down. It turns out he doesn't want press at all. And he was, like, really explicit about that. He's like, I don't want anything from you. I just like your work, and I just thought you'd be cool. And so we end up having this great conversation where we're. We end up being just like, super candid with each other about, like, what we're doing in our careers, what we thinking and what we want to do next. And I just really liked him. And afterwards, we were like, we should definitely do this again. And I. I cannot remember who it was, but I'm going to give him the credit. I think that maybe. Maybe like two months later, he texted me. He was like, you want to get together again? And I said, yeah. And. And then we did that a couple times. And. And I would say, because we did it a couple times with a regular enough cadence, I now think of him as like a. Like a real friend, right? It's like, you don't. You can't keep that up forever. We're busy. He's especially busy. I mean, he's running Kickstarter. He's flying around the world, like, all the time. But now there are these opportunities or these moments where it's like, hey, oh, I'm doing this thing. I should totally invite Everett. Or, you know, like, I'll check in with Everett. And, um. And I don't think that we would have the friendship that we had, had we not met a few times, close enough together that it felt like one continuous conversation. It's almost like onboarding a friend. That's what it is. It's like onboarding a friend, right? You've Got to get to some kind of level of familiarity. And that's where it's interesting where like I, I would meet people. I meet people occasionally. Susan is one of them. Where I feel like it. If with the right cadence here, I think I could onboard a friend. And, and so that. But then I, then I get concerned that, that it. That I'm seeming too weird or pushy or needy or something. And then I don't know what to do.

[Taryn Southern]

No, I don't think you are at all. And I did have a thought while, while as we've been talking this out.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

You know, obviously I'm making sort of real time changes to my own thinking.

[Nicole Lapin]

That's. That is only way I oper know.

[Taryn Southern]

There's a couple of women who have recently come in my life who I very quickly onboarded as a, as a dear friend. And there's like this very fast cadence of hanging out. And, and I think it's a little bit easier when it's same sex in part because of some of these peculiarities. Like, like one of these women, you know, we go to the same gym, so it's like, do you want a sauna together?

[Nicole Lapin]

Right.

[Taryn Southern]

Like, I couldn't do that with.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right. That would be a. It would feel like a very different.

[Taryn Southern]

Definitely be creepy. It would definitely be weir weird. So there's just by, by, by its very nature, it's been easier to onboard quickly, I think for me, female friends than, than male friends. And then also to some degree, I always feel a little bit concerned that maybe their partner, you know, the male person's partner will feel it's inappropriate for me to have a friendship with them. So I'm just a bit like out of respect, I'm almost like I kind of wait for them to do. Oh, that's something about it. Because I never know. Have you had that experience?

[Nicole Lapin]

I mean, not that I'm aware of, but, But I mean, that to me was really interesting because you're highlighting a thing that would have otherwise been invisible to me. Right. So yes, let's say I meet some interesting person who I would want to onboard as a friend. I like this phrase, onboarding as a friend. And it's a woman. And let's say that she's married, I'm married, whatever. I just like, like a new friend, an interesting friend. I don't care if they're male or female. But what I might not be aware of is what her relationship is with her husband. And I mean, I, I have to be honest, I have not thought about this in part because it seems a little ludicrous to me, but maybe. Maybe it's not. It seems a little ludicrous to me if a person. If a man or a woman is. Is a professional that their partner would, like, get weird about.

[Taryn Southern]

Oh, Jason, how long have you been married?

[Nicole Lapin]

We got married in 2011.

[Taryn Southern]

Okay, so you've been. And how long have you been together?

[Nicole Lapin]

We met in 2009, so it's been a while.

[Taryn Southern]

Okay, so it's been a long time.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

I am like you. I mean, I like to be in partnerships where I can maintain friendships with other people of the opposite sex, and it's not an issue. And I'm very supportive of my partners doing the same. It's not an issue. But I. With my group of girlfriends.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Taryn Southern]

I've seen this happen so many times.

[Nicole Lapin]

Oh, my God. Tell me about this.

[Taryn Southern]

Deep upset. Deep upset about the maintenance of some kind of, you know, new friendship, quasi professional friendship with a person from the opposite sex, sometimes coming from the woman, sometimes coming from their male partner. All it takes is one person to have had a traumatic experience, to have been cheated on in this way, or, you know, went on to have this kind of trigger around it. I think it's actually fairly common.

[Nicole Lapin]

That's interesting, because to me, it's so sterile. Right. Like, we'll just use Susan again. Like, Susan, I had lunch in a public space, and the next time I see her will be at a public space.

[Taryn Southern]

And I think that's actually more accepted. But let's say it was a dinner, right? Do you feel like that would change the dynamic at all or. Well, maybe put that question mark in your head.

[Nicole Lapin]

No, because I have dinner with people. Well, I don't. For me, dinner is complicated because I have kids. So because I have kids, that means that I've got to schedule that I am out for dinner with my wife, who then has to watch the kids. So dinner has to. Dinner can't be casual for me in the way that lunch can be casual. Lunch is like, whatever I'll book. If I. If I could get to the point where I would feel comfortable walking away for an hour and a half every day, then I could book lunch every day and it's. Who cares, right? Like, dinner is just more complicated because I've got to, like, create it and schedule it, which means that, to me, dinner has to be. There has to be a reason to get dinner in a way in which, like, doesn't really have to be a reason to get lunch, but it doesn't feel More. It doesn't feel more intimate. No, it just feels more complicated. And so I default to, to lunch.

[Taryn Southern]

This is an interesting poll for your audience. I would actually love to hear what they say. If they feel like a dinner with the opposite sex triggers some kind of inappropriateness in their mind. I, I have no idea where people would net out on this. I'm sure also in your 20s, you know, people are going to have more of these kinds of interpersonal dynamics.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right.

[Taryn Southern]

Older and a little bit more settled in yourself, but.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right, right, right, right.

[Taryn Southern]

I do know.

[Nicole Lapin]

Can you just like, take me into this for one more second here? Because I hadn't really thought about this. All right, so, like, what are the conversations that are happening among your female friends as it relates to, like this? Let's say their, their partners are, are, have developed some kind of friendship. Let's just say like a, A, A work related friendship. They're what? Like what are they sniffing around? What's too much for them? When does it trigger something? What's going on?

[Taryn Southern]

I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head. Actually. I can't think of one.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay, great. Give me, I want the dirt.

[Taryn Southern]

All right, so this was a girlfriend of mine and her boyfriend was, Had a lot of different female friends. And I mean, I think she pretty much felt uncomfortable about all of them, to be honest. I would frequently have to talk her down off of a ledge around his activities, whether they be dinners or lunches or whatever they were. I think she felt like if she was not invited to participate, then she felt that it was inappropriate.

[Nicole Lapin]

Was she not invited or was she excluded?

[Taryn Southern]

What's the difference?

[Nicole Lapin]

I would not think to invite my wife to a business lunch because why would I do that? She doesn't want to be there. She has other things to do. But if she for some reason wanted, If I told her, oh, I'm, I'm having lunch with Susan today, and she's like, Susan, I love that company. I would, I'd love to meet her. Then if I, if I said, no, no, no, you're not allowed, that's excluding her. Instead, I would say, I'd say, sure, come. I think they would get along. I think my wife would like Susan. Susan would like my wife. So to me, it's like, I don't invite my wife to professional things of mine all the time because there's no reason to. She works in a different industry. There's no reason for her to be interested, and she's not interested. She would far rather work on her own stuff, but I'm not excluding her. If she wants to be involved, she certainly could be.

[Taryn Southern]

Sure. Okay. That's a helpful distinction. I think in this case, she wasn't being invited, you know, but then there was this negative feedback loop where he was starting to feel, like, a little.

[Nicole Lapin]

Right.

[Taryn Southern]

A little bit claustrophobic from the constant questioning and then. Then wanted to exclude her. So I don't really know. I'm not, you know, in the dynamics of that relationship. But also, I think similar to how you were talking about how many of these professional invites actually turn into deeper personal friendships. Like, you're not necessarily talking about work that you're going to do together. You have this kind of kinship in being in the same space and talking through challenges and whatever the thing may be, it ends up being personal.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, I. I don't know. I feel like. I feel like people are. People are really missing out if they're creating these limitations for themselves. I mean, look, here we are let. As perfect example, I feel like, in a way, so, you know, you are. You and I are talking right now. And the reason we're talking is. Is because we're on this podcast that Nicole and I had created. And the only reason that this exists is because many, many years ago, Nicole and I were introduced by a mutual friend and did, like, I had her on, like, a video that we did for Entrepreneur. And then a little later, we were both speaking at the same event, and then we started, like, talking and texting, and she's like, hey, do you want to make a podcast? And, you know, the next thing you know, I have. I have developed, like, a good personal and professional relationship with Nicole. Now throughout. Throughout all of this, I've known my wife longer than I've known Nicole. So like my wife, I was married to Jen. Jen doesn't care. Jen never questioned this at all. And I'm very glad for that, because the result of it is that Nicole and I developed a great personal and professional relationship. We built things like this show, and none of that would be possible if I didn't have the space to just create kind of fusion, personal, professional relationships. And at the time, Nicole was single and I was married with kids. And like, the idea that this was inappropriate. It certainly never crossed my mind. I presume it never crossed Nicole's mind. It did not cross my wife's mind. My wife doesn't care. And so, you know, actually, in fact, like, Nicole. Nicole introduced the phrase. She started using it on the show, which was that I was her work husband. And so then I was like, well, you're my wife. And just recently. Who was it? It was Jen's parent. Jen is my wife. We were, we were just at Jen's parents house and the podcast came up or something and Jen's mom was like, what is it? What do you call, what do you call Nicole? Your.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Your what, Wife?

[Nicole Lapin]

And I was like, your work wife. And Jen's mom said to Jen, she's like, what do you think of that? And Jen was like, I don't care. That's a very common term. And I was like, yeah, it's a very common term. Like, it's not. This is not a big deal. So anyway, the point of this is that, is that none of this would happen, which has all been very enriching if there was, if there was like weirdness and suspicion. It just seems crazy.

[Taryn Southern]

Of course, Jason, the reality is not everyone in this world is healed and is coming into relationships with their baggage and their stuff. And you are a secure person with a secure attachment. And some people do not have that. And. But you know, which is unfortunate. But I think maybe I'm just aware of it because of the things that I've been exposed to. One of the things that I do do, if I know that someone has a partner just out the gate, oftentimes, if it's a first or second time hanging out, I'll say, feel free to join, bring your partner if you'd like. Because then it just immediately neutralizes if there is a situationship over there that's complicated, it kind of neutralizes that and it invites them to set the, Set the rules.

[Nicole Lapin]

That's a good point. Okay, I think that we've turned this rock over many times. Here's my final, my final question to you. Okay. We have had this conversation. It is going to be published as a podcast.

[Taryn Southern]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Should I send the podcast link to Susan as the way of saying, look, I have no idea when it is appropriate to say let's get together again, but seems about time. And I had a funny conversation about it on the podcast. So you can hear me turn this over if you'd like. But also, you want to get lunch in February. Is that appropriate or is that weird?

[Taryn Southern]

I say roll the dice, Jason.

[Nicole Lapin]

Say go for it, see what happens? Yeah, I mean, this would go back to your, your, your earlier thing of like, well, if, if, if, if they don't want to get together quick enough, then they're not your kind of people anyway. So maybe I know, you know what.

[Taryn Southern]

Brene Brown would say. About this.

[Nicole Lapin]

I have absolutely vulnerable.

[Taryn Southern]

Be open. Be vulnerable. Lead with authenticity. And the people who love that about you will, you know, they will respond in kind.

[Nicole Lapin]

If it blows up in my face, can I blame you?

[Taryn Southern]

Sure. It's fine. I'm happy to be the scapegoat.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay, great. All right. Well, you may be getting a call from Susan. Terrence, it has been a delight taping another episode with you. Oh, you're a delight. All right. We'll have to stay more in touch.

[Taryn Southern]

We will. From halfway across the country. I'll see you in 10 years.

[Nicole Lapin]

Perfect. I'll see you in 10 years. It'll be great. We'll be even older. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapman. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our [e-mail] for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagramoneynews and TikTokoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[Nicole Lapin]

All right, well, talk to you soon.