How to Deal with Uncertainty: Tariffs and Beyond

Summary

Podcast Summary: Help Wanted – "How to Deal with Uncertainty: Tariffs and Beyond"

Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Help Wanted, hosted by Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur magazine, and co-hosted by money expert Nicole Lapin, the focus is on navigating the complexities and uncertainties brought about by tariffs. Released on April 15, 2025, this episode delves deep into how businesses and individuals can adapt and find opportunities amidst economic unpredictability.

The Impact of Tariffs and Associated Uncertainty

The episode opens with a candid discussion between Jason and Nicole about the palpable sense of economic strain, highlighted by everyday experiences such as rising grocery costs. Nicole shares her concern about escalating expenses, stating, “Everything feels more expensive. And the last thing I want for any of you is to go into credit card debt” (00:00).

Jason introduces the central theme by referencing recent tariff announcements, expressing his own feelings of uncertainty: “I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit panicking” (03:21). The conversation emphasizes that while tariffs themselves are a significant economic burden, the real challenge lies in the unpredictable nature of these policies. Jason remarks, “the only thing that's certain is uncertainty” (06:35), underscoring the pervasive anxiety businesses feel in adapting to constantly shifting economic landscapes.

Opportunities Within Uncertainty

Despite the challenges, the hosts highlight potential silver linings. Jason points out that reduced advertising costs could benefit brands that continue to invest in marketing: “advertising online just became cheaper... they can now reach more people for cheaper” (06:35). This perspective is built on the idea that disruption often levels the playing field, allowing smaller, more agile businesses to capitalize on opportunities that incumbents may miss due to their rigidity.

Guest Interview: Sarah on Managing Tariffs

The episode features a guest, Sarah, the Chief Marketing Officer of Chinese Laundry Shoes, who provides a firsthand account of dealing with tariffs. She explains her company's strategic advantage: “Luckily, we're a stock first house, so we hold a good amount of inventory. So this is 1000% an opportunity for us” (13:26). Sarah details how holding substantial inventory allows her company to maintain prices despite rising costs, giving them a competitive edge.

Sarah also discusses the internal response to tariff announcements, revealing the initial panic within her team: “There was absolutely panic. We were all in a meeting right when the news first hit about the tariffs” (14:38). However, strong leadership from her CEO helped shift the focus from panic to proactive problem-solving, enabling the company to stay solutions-oriented.

Forcing Functions and Collaborative Solutions

Jason introduces the concept of forcing functions—events that compel action and drive necessary change. He connects this to how tariffs can push small Consumer Packaged Goods (CPG) brands to collaborate: “But why not have CPG small CPG brands now start to band together and... reduce our costs that way?” (24:47). This idea suggests that collective purchasing and resource-sharing among small businesses can mitigate the financial strain caused by tariffs.

The discussion progresses to the potential for creating marketplaces or platforms that facilitate such collaborations. Jason emphasizes the entrepreneurial mindset required to turn challenges into opportunities, encouraging listeners to adopt a proactive approach: “The instinct to start looking for solutions really fast and ideating on solutions is something that is just deep into the entrepreneurial mindset” (27:38).

Overcoming Anxiety and Adopting a Problem-Solving Mindset

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around managing anxiety in the face of uncertainty. Jason shares his admiration for solutions-focused thinking, stating, “All problems are just problems. They have some kind of solution” (33:00). He recounts a conversation with Jason Robbins, founder of DraftKings, who exemplifies this mindset by breaking down problems into actionable steps: “What we need is people who know these people. Hire some lobbyists... understand what their concerns are and come to them with our version of a solution” (34:17).

This approach transforms overwhelming challenges into manageable tasks, helping individuals and businesses regain a sense of control. Jason underscores the importance of creating a cohesive narrative for problems, allowing for clearer decision-making and reducing the paralysis often caused by uncertainty.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reiterate the importance of maintaining a proactive, solution-oriented mindset. They acknowledge the collective anxiety surrounding economic uncertainties but emphasize that action and collaboration can lead to resilience and growth. Jason encourages listeners to embrace entrepreneurial thinking, whether they are business owners or employees, to navigate and thrive amidst ongoing changes.

Key Takeaways:

• Uncertainty as a Constant: The primary challenge with tariffs is not just the immediate economic impact but the unpredictability they introduce.
• Opportunities Amid Disruption: Reduced advertising costs and the agility of smaller businesses can create new market opportunities.
• Leadership and Mindset: Strong leadership can transform panic into proactive problem-solving.
• Collaborative Solutions: Small businesses can mitigate tariff impacts by banding together for collective purchasing and resource-sharing.
• Managing Anxiety: Breaking down problems into actionable steps can help regain a sense of control and reduce anxiety.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Lapin on rising costs: “Everything feels more expensive. And the last thing I want for any of you is to go into credit card debt” (00:00).
• Jason Pfeiffer on panicking: “I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit panicking” (03:21).
• Sarah on inventory advantage: “Luckily, we're a stock first house, so we hold a good amount of inventory. So this is 1000% an opportunity for us” (13:26).
• Jason on forcing functions: “The instinct to start looking for solutions really fast and ideating on solutions is something that is just deep into the entrepreneurial mindset” (27:38).
• Jason Robbins on problem-solving: “All problems are just problems. They have some kind of solution” (33:00).

This episode of Help Wanted provides valuable insights into managing business uncertainties, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, leadership, and collaborative problem-solving in navigating economic disruptions like tariffs.

Transcript

[Nicole Lapin]

So I just went to the grocery store and I actually flinched at the cost of eggs.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And I don't even really eat eggs.

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Jason Pfeiffer]

This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.

Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

And it starts now.

Yeah.

What?

Yeah. Nicole, did you hear about the. Did you hear about the tariffs thing?

The what?

There were some terror. There were some tariffs.

How do you spell that?

T, A. And then I always forget if it's a double R or a double F.

P, A, N, I, C. No.

Oh, yes. There was some panic going on. There was some panic going on. Are you panicking?

I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit panicking. It's always really tricky for me to tell people. Don't pan. You know, this happens all the time. There is a small percentage of me, I. I cannot lie, that feels, you know, the same thing that everybody else does. Like, this is going to be different than all the previous ones. It's a small percentage, but I would be lying if I said it wasn't there. You know, running a business that is largely dependent on advertising, too, and how companies are gonna change their budgets based on what's happening in the market and with the uncertainty of tariffs, you know, makes me feel a little uncertain, too. But at the same time, this is a really good time for business news.

That's true. That is an upside, right? Fewer advertisers, perhaps, but a lot of consumers. And maybe that's good. Yeah, I mean, I feel the same. I obviously don't have a product to sell that is being sourced from overseas. So I'm not a direct impact, but I'm definitely going to be a indirect impact. I think that a lot of speaking business is probably going to dry up and sponsorships are probably going to start diminishing. I have started to think of this moment as, like, a cash grab for me. Like, for example, I'm. I'm grabbing opportunities that I might have said no to because they didn't pay as much or because they were more inconvenient, because I'm just not sure that the opportunities are going to be here a couple of months from now. So, like, I just said yes to a speaking gig that doesn't pay exactly what I want, and the travel is, like, ridiculously inconvenient. I didn't really want to do it, but I also thought, you know, if things go really south in a couple of months, I'm going to kick myself for having said no to that because I would like the money in my pocket. So I think I'll just do it. And I don't know how healthy that is, but that you're on sale. Yeah, I'm on sale. I'm on sale.

I mean, a lot of things are on sale, so to speak. The stock market.

Yeah. If you choose to see that the things that you're buying today are going to have more value tomorrow, then I guess it is for sale.

I mean, high quality things are on sale. I would say that you're a high quality thing.

Appreciate that.

High quality investments. Definitely on sale. You know, I would argue though that we always have uncertainty. This is kind of a weird one, but as a business owner covering business, telling people to buy the dips, there's obviously businesses on the other side of those dips that are feeling the pressure. Seriously. There's always two sides of the trade, but you know, there's always uncertainty. I think about Black Swan events, which is Nassim Taleb's idea, that, you know, things that we can never Predict will happen, 9, 11 Covid tariffs we heard President Trump campaigning on. So yes, they were more aggressive, but we knew that was coming to some extent. Yeah, there are things that we have no idea will happen. You know, the Russia, Ukraine situation also led to a lot of uncertainty. Could not predict that. So I would argue the only thing that's certain is uncertainty.

The only thing that doesn't change is that there's always change. The thing that you're zeroing in on here, which is that word uncertainty, something that I've heard kicked around a lot like, you know, the analysis for the business market is that the greatest challenge here isn't necessarily the tariffs, it is the uncertainty surrounding them. Because if the Trump administration just said these are the tariffs, they are not changing, then everyone could at least adjust to it and say, okay, well then let's start making some long term decisions based on this new information. But the problem is that nobody feels that there's any guarantee that today's situation will also be tomorrow's situation, which means that there's no way to plan for it. I mean, to get policy ish just for one second completely undermines what one of the stated, even though the goals of these tariffs continue to be changed in the way in which they're stated. But one of the stated goals has been to drive more manufacturing investment in America. But if the tariffs are going to be constantly changing. If there's a chance that they'll go away, if there's a quote unquote deal cut somewhere, then like there actually isn't an incentive to build any manufacturing because why would you spend the money if you don't actually know the environment that you're working in? So that's like the larger thing. But then you drill down to the individual person, the business owner who doesn't know exactly how to plan, the employee who is not sure what the job market is going to look like or where there will be growth. Like it's just a kind of paralyzing uncertainty, which deeply frustrating and so. But I like your point there, that although this moment feels particularly uncertain, that is not to say as if we usually operate in certain times, we don't. Things are constantly changing. And the thing that might be most interesting about these moments of quote, unquote, massive uncertainty and massive disruption is that opportunities and benefits will, will reveal themselves in these interesting and unexpected ways. I'll just give you an example of just like one tiny little thing. I mean this is, this is obviously very small relative to a lot of the major things that we were just saying. But like as an example, so Pilothouse, which is this great ecom growth agency that I do some work with, Pilothouse just shared this interesting data because they track advertising costs online for, for brands that, you know, want to advertise online. They said that cpc, so that's cost per click. So the amount of money that brands have to pay every time somebody clicks on a Link has dropped 7% since the tariff announcements. And CPMs, which is, that's cost per mille or whatever in Latin, it basically cost per thousand impressions. This is what advertisers generally are paying to advertise on something like Help Wanted, for example, that across the board they have fallen 18% since the tariff announcements. So anyway, the point is that advertising online just became cheaper, presumably because so many brands are pulling their ad budgets and that that's a really good thing for a brand that is feeling bold enough to still spend money on marketing. They can now reach more people for cheaper because the tariffs have disrupted that market. And let us not forget that like when things are disrupted for you, they're disrupted for everybody else too. And so that will often harm large incumbents more because they move slower and they have built on top of what they feel like are certain systems. And so when they get shaken, incumbents can't move as fast and they can't respond to needs as fast. Smaller scrappier businesses. And I would argue individuals can, once their, you know, head stops spinning, can find like, really useful, interesting opportunities for growth. Which again, is also what we saw during COVID where, you know, Covid was like a. It was a terrible disaster, but also it led to like, tremendous opportunities and growth for interesting, you know, business opportunities and, and careers. And so I think that we're going to see something similar here. It's just that we don't know what it looks like yet.

So consumer packaged goods are probably the most deeply affected or sort of on the front lines of who's going to be most affected. So there's. There's so much question mark around what they're even operating with.

So as you and I are recording this, you texted a friend who has been dealing with tariffs because you're actually.

The chief marketing officer of, of sells brands, which includes Chinese laundry shoes for anyone who remembers their prom shoes or likely from Chinese laundry. Mine were.

No, mine were not. I don't remember my. My prom shoes. Great. Well, why don't we do it? So we're just gonna. She's just gonna join our conversation here. I'm very interested to hear what her attitude and perspective is, so let's bring her in. So, Sarah, what we've spent time talking about here is how even moments of uncertainty ultimately create moments of opportunity. Though it is not often easy to immediately see that or to feel it. But what I said was I am especially inspired by people in business who get to that problem solving mindset really fast, which is also out of necessity. You have to buckle down and just say, like, all right, well, things seem pretty screwed, but we can't just sit around saying that we're screwed. So like, what is the solution here? What is the opportunity? So I'm curious to hear from your experience as you guys have been processing the impact of tariffs. Like, just what has that conversation been? Like, how. How did you go from panic to okay, let's try to figure out some solutions?

[Sarah]

Yeah, we sit directly between the manufacturer and the retailer, so we have to figure out how to service both sides. Luckily, we're a stock first house, so we hold a good amount of inventory. So this is 1000% an opportunity for us. But it does impact the way we're looking at bringing in goods for June. Normally, we have a June delivery and a fall delivery. And also looking at how we can support our factories, which are actually like, currently shutting down right now because they aren't bringing in and ordering new materials.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So. Huh. Wait, wait, wait. Before you go Further, let me just unpack a couple of those things. So when you said stock first, in other words, the reason it's an opportunity for you is because you're holding a lot of inventory, so you'll ultimately be able to sell that at like the regular price while other people's products costs are going to go up. Is that right?

[Sarah]

Yeah, that's right. We've spent our week essentially talking to our retail partners, talking to our banks, talking to everyone because we all, we do, we all have to come together to find the best solution and to be able to continue to offer product to the end consumer that's now extremely price sensitive and trying to avoid panic. So yeah, because we hold that inventory were better positioned than most fashion houses and it is an opportunity for us.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Can I pull you out of the very intelligent way that you're talking about this and just ask you like, as a human being, did you, did you like, what were you feeling? Did you feel like, holy crap, was it a panic mode? Because you're talking in a very clear headed, solutions oriented way. But tell me what it was actually like.

[Sarah]

There was absolutely panic. We were all in a meeting right when the news first hit about the tariffs and the, everyone as they picked up their phones were like, oh man. You know, one of our sales girls was like, should I join only feet? Like, what am I gonna do? Like, is the company shut down?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Is only. Is only. Does onlyfeet? Is that a, is that an OnlyFans segment just for feet?

[Sarah]

Yeah, that's a direct quote. But you know, luckily our CEO, Bob Goldman, who's our original founder, he's been in the business for 53 years. He stood the test of time and market fluctuations and he very calmly looked at all of us and said, this is an opportunity. So the panic that I think some companies and people may have felt in the room in that moment, because he was able to give such a steadfast, confident response in the moment, actually really helped calm everybody down. And then we became extremely solutions oriented pretty quickly because of his leadership.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And have you been thinking about how to message this to the consumer? You know, we're part of. Patao Patel has been on the show before and we're in this group chat and people have been sharing.

You know, I'm just gonna, just to explain. So you, the both of you are part of a community called Patau, which is like for CEOs and CMOs, basically. And so you get to be in this cool club talking to all the cool people. Yes. Okay, keep going.

Yeah, the Cool nerds on, on WhatsApp. Vital Sands plan to take on the world. And a lot of CMOs are trying to figure out how to message this to consumers. Fabletics had, you know, a line item already for a tariff surcharge. Have you thought about how to talk to the consumer, consumer about this, whether it's on social or newsletter or sort of bring the consumer into the process?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I'm working on putting together a letter that we'll send out to all of our retail partners because. Right. We service retail retail partners and we service direct to consumer. And so the way we're communicating with both that falls under my umbrella is the same but also different. We're kind of approaching it from like a partnership perspective. Right. Like we want to figure out how can we support the factories, how can we support the retailers and how can we support and not be put the consumers in a price gouging situation. You know, fdra, which is the footwear distributors retailers of America, estimates that these tariffs are going to cost the consumer an additional 7 billion annually. Wow, that's scary.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's really a lot of billions of dollars. And also you guys are called Chinese laundry, which is not ideal at this moment.

Yeah, that is a good point.

[Sarah]

Yeah, we have to, we have no choice but to embrace it and address it head on and look at ways to really, you know, not have it impact the end consumer as best we can while still maintaining our margins, while still keeping the factories open. And some of the ways that we're going to do that is continue to place orders in the factory, but essentially not bring it into the country. But we have to be careful about how we do that. But we need our factories to stay open and we need to be able to have goods ready to ship once hopefully the tariffs are, you know, lifted. But we also can't bring any goods in at 145%, which is where the duties are landing for footwear.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That is such an interesting moment in time because I'm sure you're not the only ones to do that, which is to say, so you're like, well, it doesn't cost us anything more to manufacture today than it did last week. The cost is when you actually bring it into the country so you can continue to build it with the just expectation that something would change in the future. You're taking a bet on some kind of future stability despite the unstability of now.

[Sarah]

Exactly. And you know, in the past, China hasn't actually serviced the factories and subsidized them. When things like this have happened. So it puts us in a position where we essentially have to bet on ourselves and own that inventory and let production continue. But we are faced with a lot of complex challenges as we realign our supply chains and work to be.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But you're trying not to raise prices on the end consumer.

[Sarah]

Yeah, and if we do, we're trying to in a really small amount.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So I feel like, Sarah, what you have told us here aligns really well with what Nicole and I have been talking about before you showed up. Right. Which is there is a way, even in crazy, very unpredictable situations to kind of lock in on a solution mindset. It sounds like to me what I'm hearing you say is like we are going to take as a baseline that this is figureoutable and we don't know that we have all the answers right now, but we're going to start testing some hypotheses and we're going to start making some decisions and then we'll probably have to adjust along the way. But like that the, the operating thesis here is going to be this can work. And that is a, that is a very healthy way of thinking about it. Do you wake up every day actually feeling that right now or are you just able to like get into that mode when you need to?

[Sarah]

That's a great question. It's a very human question. I am really trying to stay extremely focused and just compartmentalize the stress from it and try to stay solutions oriented. Our customer is we're trend forward accessible footwear and these tariffs disproportionately affect the working class and families specifically. So I think we have a responsibility, responsibility as an organization to find solutions for, for our customers.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And you had. It sounds like a bunch of inventory in the US and maybe you weren't going to do anything with it or repackage or you know, like you can revisit that and make something that was there, that wasn't supposed to be a trend, now is a trend. Surprise.

[Sarah]

Yeah, surprise.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I mean Taylor Swift is wearing your guys shoes. So.

Right.

Your trend forward. Maybe she'll wear some shoes that have been in a cool factory for a minute.

[Sarah]

Yeah, that's right. And it's actually exciting for me because as we get to kind of go through the, you know, on hand inventory that we have, that means we get to clear out space to bring in really fun, new, exciting product once we're able to, once the tariffs lift and we're able to bring new stuff into the country. So I'm very excited about that part From a marketing perspective.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, Ms. Americana. Go get some of those shoes, sister.

Well Sarah, thanks for joining us.

[Sarah]

Super special. Thank you guys so much. It was a pleasure to be here.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stick around. Help Wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

So I think CBG companies are on the front lines of who has the most uncertainty, you know. Yeah, it's not a competition of uncertainty, but I think that they're, they're feeling it the most.

Yes, I think that's right. Or at least you're going to see it most directly impact them because they're selling a product and they've got to source materials and wherever that's coming from is now going to get really expensive. And so I think that they're also really good harbinger of what it looks like to respond and navigate something like this. So I run a, I run a company called CPG Fast Track which is a private network for early stage consumer packaged goods founders. We had a really interesting call the day after the tariffs were announced in CPG FastTrack where a number of our members and you know, again our members are like, they're all, let's just say maybe $2 million in revenue and down like down to very entry level, just launching in farmers markets kind of thing. And so we were talking about how this is going to impact them and of course they don't exactly know yet. But we had, for example, one of our members has a, has a kind of boxed wine and was saying that the wine comes from a couple of different countries and so that's going to get really complicated. And the packaging comes from well like an American middleman but the American middleman is sourcing it from China. So like now that's complicated. So what is she supposed to do? So after the airing of grievances, as Seinfeld would say, we got into this really interesting next phase of the conversation where we started to look for solutions and things that maybe didn't make sense to do in a pre tariff world but that do make sense in a post tariff world and could be of lasting benefit to brands. So for example, one of our members said small brands do not benefit from economies of scale purchasing. So like if you're a small brand and you're sourcing chocolate, you have to pay much more for that chocolate than like Hershey's does because Hershey's can buy it in such bulk that their suppliers are going to sell it cheaper. That's just a basic with the world works. And he so this member was like, but why not have cpg small CPG brands now start to band together and, like, buy together and buy in larger quantities together and therefore start to reduce our costs that way? Like, that's. We should have been doing that all along.

Yeah, it's really smart guys. Kumbaya.

There was no incentive to do it before. I mean, there's a way to think about these external moments as a forcing function. Like, I've become obsessed with that phrase forcing function. It means the event that compels action. And I, I like, I love the idea of something pushing us to make a change that's ultimately beneficial for us that we wouldn't have done unless we were pushed. That's the forcing function. Right. So in the same way that AI is forcing us to reconsider some of our processes and say, oh, you know what, that was actually a deeply inefficient way to do that, and now I've been pushed to discover a better way to do it. I think in a way you could see the tariffs and this uncertainty as a forcing function to drive us to start exploring options that we maybe didn't feel incentivized to do before or that it just would have seemed crazy. Like, it would have seemed crazy for a bunch of small brands to call each other up and be like, hey, so we're kind of in the same space and I guess we're competitors, but also, do you want to buy chocolate together? Because that would lower our costs. Like, there just wouldn't have been the incentive to do that before, but now there, there is, and that's because the tariffs are a forcing function. And that is not to say that I like the tariffs. I actually don't. I think that these are largely a bad idea, but you've got to work with what you've got. And if this is the situation, then I think it's helpful to think this way.

Yeah. It's such a good idea. I love this idea. Is there a marketplace to bring people together to share on?

I don't know if big orders think.

So, but some, like Etsy, should build that too and be like, hey, we're, you know, sourcing yarn or whatever, and.

Who wants the yarn?

And it's going to be more expensive, maybe than before, but not as expensive expensive as if you were doing it alone.

Yeah.

Maybe cheaper doing it together.

That's right. And then. And now, like, look what you just said there. You just went the step further. Right. Because, like, the member of CPG fast track was like, the brands should Just be banding together. But then you, Nicole, you were like, well, who's doing that? Who's overseeing that? That's a business. So now somebody can step up and be like, I've got a business for now. Like a business that solves a problem for right now. And it's this. I will be a matchmaker and facilitator and help brands come together, identify, like, overlapping product sourcing needs, and then connect with the suppliers. I don't. Maybe something like that exists. I don't know. But if it doesn't, we.

I mean, not that we need another project, but I feel like that's such a good idea.

It's a great. It's a great business opportunity. Jobs will be created. I think it's really helpful and constructive to think that way and also exciting because it gives you something to do right.

Besides worry, which is like, yes, my favorite.

It's your favorite cardio. Yeah. Yeah. Because the greatest problem here, going back to the thing we were talking about with uncertainty, the greatest problem is a loss of control that if you could just tell me what the situation is, then I can start to control the outcome. I can say, all right, well, here's what we've got, and let me start a bit. The problem is that when things are really uncertain, you don't feel like you're able to take control. But you gotta do something. You can't sit around and be helpless. I mean, you've gotta do something. And so I really. I am always inspired by entrepreneurs. And look, if you're listening to this and you're not identifying as an. As an entrepreneur, you don't have a business. Like, it doesn't matter. Like this core.

Take our business idea.

Yeah, that's right. Go, go, go. Run it. We'll expect royalties. Thank you. The instinct to start looking for solutions really fast and ideating on solutions is something that is. Is just deep into the entrepreneurial mindset that I think. I think anybody. Anybody can adopt. I mean, like, even if you're an employee at a company, if you know that the. The company is going to be impacted by these tariffs, what solutions can you start building right now? Instead of, like, hiding under the desk waiting for the ceiling to collapse on top of you, like, what can you do now to either develop some cost savings for the company, identify some new opportunities for the company. You become more singularly valuable the more in which you are thinking about how to solve the most present problems.

Yeah. But also realizing that it feels like more urgent now because of so much coverage. But at the same time, there's so much uncertainty around, hey, how AI is gonna, you know, disrupt everything? And being valuable around that is something that you can also do. Then you could have some crazy black swan event like tomorrow. Then we change the conversation. And so I think that this could be an opportunity to create a solution in a zeitgeist y problem. But there's also always potential problems that you can find solutions for. Even being an intrapreneur, like, sort of entrepreneurial vibe within a bigger company, too.

Yeah. Have I ever told you about my conversation years ago with Jason Robbins, the founder of DraftKings?

No, but great name, great name. Jason. Tell me.

I love a good Jason.

How were the Jason's talking?

What was the conversation? Well, so the Jason. Yes. We were talking at our annual convening of the Jasons. Jason's from worldwide get together and we all. Jason. Jason Robbins and I were talking, and this is years and years ago. So DraftKings, as you probably know, is one of the leading brands in the sports betting space. I don't know that they call themselves sports betting, but I mean, that's.

Well, they are. Well, they probably have to.

Yeah, they probably have to. Legal reason for them to use some other. But maybe, I don't know, whatever. Anyway, they're a bunch of sports bettors. And when they first hit market many, many years ago, they were really operating in a loophole. And I can't remember this technical details, but, you know, like, there was no. Sports betting was not allowed unless you were like, in a casino in Vegas. And then suddenly you could download DraftKings and.

Or have a bookie.

Yeah, bet on. Yeah. Or have a bookie. And, like, you could bet on fantasy sports. This was because of some. There was some legal loophole that they were exploiting and they raised a ton of money and they were pouring gobs of money into advertising. They were growing very fast. And then the attorneys general of New York and Massachusetts started to investigate and were talking about changing the law to put this company out of business. You know, this company and the others like them. A couple others. So I. What I wanted to know from Jason was what was it like to face a existential threat for your business? Like, this isn't like, oh, there's a problem that our chocolate became too expensive. We got to figure that this is like, we could get. We could get legaled out of existence here. And what do you do? What do you do when you face a threat, a change that big? And I loved his answer. What he told me was he's like, look, all problems are just problems. They're just problems. And therefore, all problems have some kind of solution. And the way to just understand it is to just start breaking it down into a series of steps. Like, no problem is. It, like, operates from some kind of different plane of existence. The problems aren't coming from, like, other dimensions where you just don't even know how to approach it. This is just a problem. So we got to figure out what are the steps to solve this problem. And so my anxiety is, like, bubbling over. This.

This feels like such a. This feels like such a answer from a human that's never experienced crippling anxiety. But continue.

Yeah, okay.

Very admirable.

Yeah. I mean, I want you to emote your way through this answer. So he said, well, the first thing that we realized was that we are not a part of this conversation at all. Like, we never thought to even engage government because we were just building this thing. So, like, we don't have. I don't even know how to call the attorney general or anyone who works with the attorney general. Like, I have nothing. So the first step is we've got to start the conversation. We've got to be involved in the conversation. So it's like, okay, well, then how the hell do we do that? Well, the next thing we need is we need people who know these people. So, you know, then you go and hire. You hire some lobbyists, basically, and some, like, policy experts, and then they start the conversation. And so now you're engaging with the attorneys general, and then the next thing is, we can't sit around and wait for the attorneys general to just propose their own ideas. Like, we need to be a part of shaping it. So why don't we understand what their concerns are and then come to them with our version of a solution? Which is not to say that they're going to adopt that, but now at least they're seeing that we hear them and that we see them and that we want to acknowledge that and build it in and you just step it out. And then we do this, and then we do this, and then we do this, and then we do this. And in the end, some laws are passed that. That change something about how these businesses operated, like DraftKings, but allow DraftKings to continue to grow and to bring it back to the word of the day here to do so with less uncertainty. Because now DraftKings knows exactly what the rules are, and it can start, and.

They could be bad. Yeah. And they couldn't be not beneficial to.

Them, they could be not beneficial to them. They could be rules that, like, limited some part of the way in which this company operates. But, like, now that they know what it is, they can work from it and around it. And I really loved that answer because just reminds you that every problem is actually just a checklist waiting to be written. That's it. It's just a checklist waiting to be written. Right. I mean, tell me where your anxiety is taking you, but, like, you just went through and are still going through a very massive problem. And not to diminish it at all, but, like, what is it? It is a. It is a checklist. Like, you have a million things to do, and it's awful, and it's like a crappy checklist. It's like the world's worst checklist. But that's the thing to do next, right? Is just, like, figure out what the next steps are and then execute them one by one by one by one. And the more in which you can draft out that checklist, the more in which you have an idea of what the hell to do. Like, the worst thing is when you don't write the checklist, and therefore you don't have any idea what the next step is. And then you're paralyzed.

Yeah. You haven't made sense of it. I think that if you create a cohesive narrative for your problems or uncertainty, you're more likely to get out of it instead of being in, like, the spin cycle, you know, just ruminating and. And worrying. Because what is missing from that? While I love, like, the go get it, hustle culture vibe, that's how we.

Jason's like to roll. That's what we talk about at the Jason conference is a little, you know.

It'S a little devoid, too, of, like, you know, what's behind this uncertainty. Can I take care of my family? Can I feed my daughter? Sort of steps on these lower rungs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And rightly or wrongly, but when you're facing these big existential issues, sometimes you feel, or I have felt inertia or just fear and crippling fear before you can sort of spring into action. So I think we're in some of that purgatory zone right now on a macro level. Like, maybe action will spring next week.

Something will spring.

But, yeah, we're still kind of, I think, collectively trying to exhale.

Yeah. And that's okay. We need a moment. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason Pfeiffer.

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