How To Turn Cold Outreach Into a Lasting Network

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: How To Turn Cold Outreach Into a Lasting Network
Date: June 9, 2026
Hosts: Jason Feifer (Editor in Chief, Entrepreneur) & Nicole Lapin (Money Expert)
Guest: Julie Griggs, founder of the dating app Fourplay

This episode explores the art—and importance—of building genuine relationships through cold outreach. With a real-life case study of successful founder Julie Griggs, the conversation dives into strategies that transform a one-off cold email or DM into authentic, lasting connections that benefit everyone involved. The hosts also reflect, with the benefit of two years' hindsight, on how Julie’s intentional, thoughtful approach created deep relationships—personally and professionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Difference Between Bad and Good Outreach

• Bad Outreach Examples (05:19)

  • Nicole reads tone-deaf LinkedIn messages that lack personalization or research.
  • "That person didn’t do anything. They didn’t communicate their value or that they have paid any attention to me or my work or why I would want to talk to them." – Nicole Lapin (05:53)

• Julie’s Approach to Outreach (07:35)

  • Julie shares her philosophy: outreach is selective and thoughtful, not spammy.
  • Focus on shared values and understanding the other person's needs.
  • “It’s more thoughtful and it’s more intentional with who I’m reaching out to.” – Julie Griggs (07:35)

From Cold Outreach to Warm Connection

• Building Trust and Familiarity (09:53)

  • Julie’s initial connection was genuine and rooted in shared experience.

  • She references Nicole’s book to establish rapport and shared vulnerabilities around burnout and mental health.

  • "You probably have a much better head on your shoulders now after that because you have a layer of empathy that other people don’t have because they haven’t experienced that." – Julie Griggs (09:48)

Small Steps Create Opportunities

• First Contact via Pre-order Incentive (11:17, 13:00)

  • Julie’s sister preordered Nicole’s book, triggering a cameo video.
  • This approach leveraged a natural, low-barrier route to connect and share her story.

• Engagement Beyond Transaction (14:26)

  • Even with limited resources, Julie found ways to be genuinely helpful, such as supporting book sales.

  • "You’d be surprised how people who seem to have all the resources and connections still feel like they are absolutely helpless when they are trying to do their own thing." – Nicole Lapin (14:39)

Crafting the Perfect Ask

• The Structure of Julie’s Email (17:54)

  • The message is clear, personal, and matches Nicole's tone—never stuffy or generic.
  • “After enough buttering up of Nicole, we turn to secondly...As we raise our pre-seed round, we are thinking about building out our advisory board. After reading Ms. Independent…and learning more about who you are as a person, you continue to be top of mind when we think of advisors.” – Nicole Lapin, reading Julie’s email (18:32)

• Refining Outreach Over Time (19:20)

  • Julie shares that her networking skills were developed out of necessity and intention, not pre-existing connections.
  • "This network that I have built did not exist at all before Fourplay...It was just being a human and acknowledging that the person on the other end is a human and probably all day is being asked for favors." – Julie Griggs (19:20)

Time Jump: Two Years Later—Outreach That Endures

• What Happened Next? (20:34)

  • The original recording with Julie took place two years earlier and went unaired until now.
  • In the meantime, Julie maintained and deepened relationships with Jason, Nicole, and producer Morgan, attending personal gatherings and supporting each other even outside business.

• The Real Secret of "Cold Outreach" (22:41)

  • "That thing that you did really well with cold outreach wasn’t about cold outreach at all. It was actually just about being really good at building relationships." – Jason Feifer (22:57)

The Human Element: From EQ to Unforced Giving

• Bringing Healthcare Empathy to Entrepreneurship (24:16, 25:38)

  • Julie credits her healthcare background with her 'leapfrog skills'—empathy and relationship-building—that set her apart in startupland.
  • Jason references Jonathan Goodman’s concept of the "leapfrog skill": combining disparate talents for exponential advantage.

• “EQ is a very big part of being successful in business…being able to connect to my employee and make him feel like a human…that has been a super rewarding part of the startup life.” – Julie Griggs (25:38, 25:47)

Skip the Small Talk, Dive Deeper

• Authenticity over Small Talk (26:32)

  • Julie reveals she has social anxiety—but only if forced into shallow small talk.
  • “I have, like, genuine social anxiety with small talk…I have to get out of here immediately…I think people are fascinating…I think that’s why you cannot judge a book by its cover until you have read the story.” – Julie Griggs (26:32–27:15)

• Jason’s “Layers of the Earth” Analogy (27:15–30:40)

  • Relationships progress from crust (surface), to mantle (comfortably personal), to core (deepest connection).
  • “People are like the Earth... Surface level, and then underneath…I’ve come to think of it as the comfortably personal…that’s where you can build real connections.” – Jason Feifer (28:12–30:40)

Giving Before Asking—and the Power of Promotion

• Julie as a Giver, Not a Taker (31:16)

  • She often reached out just to promote or support Nicole and Jason’s work.
  • “People don’t like takers, and also that are givers.” – Julie Griggs (31:35)

• Jason and Nicole both reflect that this made Julie’s rare "asks" feel organic and welcomed, not transactional.

Unexpected Outcomes: More Than You Bargained For

• Helping Beyond the Pitch (34:01–35:54)
  • The most significant impact was helping Julie’s parents achieve financial security after Nicole connected them with a financial advisor.
  • Even though Nicole didn’t write a check, the relationship delivered priceless, unexpected value.
  • “That was genuinely my biggest stressor...my dad, who told me he’d never be able to afford to retire, has now knocked down to four days a week...and apparently is going to retire in two years.” – Julie Griggs (35:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On bad outreach:
"That person didn’t do anything. They didn’t communicate their value or that they have paid any attention to me or my work."
— Nicole Lapin (05:53)

On intentionality:
"It needs to be intentional... If that’s how it’s rubbing me, then I can only imagine how it’s rubbing people that actually can invest."
— Julie Griggs (08:09)

On shared vulnerability:
"I think a lot of people struggle with mental health. And one, talking about it is huge. And two, being proud of it in a way where it’s like, yeah, I struggled with that, but like, look at me now...you have a layer of empathy that other people don’t have because they haven’t experienced that."
— Julie Griggs (09:48)

On giving before asking:
"You’d be surprised how people who seem to have all the resources and connections still feel like they are absolutely helpless when they are trying to do their own thing...anybody stepping in and being helpful at a moment in which you identify that somebody else needs help, they will love you for it."
— Nicole Lapin (14:39)

On authentic connection:
"I have, like, genuine social anxiety with small talk. I can’t do it. It is the most draining thing. It feels so forced, so fake, so inauthentic. And when I’m in a situation where the person will not get deep with me… I have to get out of here immediately."
— Julie Griggs (26:32)

On layers of connection:
"People are like the Earth… There is surface level, right? And then underneath…I’ve come to think of it as the comfortably personal. That’s where people will engage and you connect well enough…that is where relationships are born."
— Jason Feifer (28:12–30:40)

On unintended returns from networking:
"You may go into something with one intention… My initial intention with Nicole Lapin was I need this woman to invest in my company…And the value that I thought Nicole Lapin would bring would be a check. But that’s so not at all how it played out. And I actually got way more value from the three of you because it transcends the check..."
— Julie Griggs (34:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Cold Outreach Horror Stories — 05:19
• Julie's Philosophy on Outreach — 07:35
• Making the First Connection (via book preorder/cameo) — 11:17, 13:00
• Importance of Giving Before Asking — 14:26
• Reading Julie's "Perfect" Email — 17:54
• Refining Outreach, Building Networks with Intention — 19:20
• Time Jump: The Impact After Two Years — 20:34
• Converting Outreach into Real Relationships — 22:41
• Leapfrog Skills and Startup Empathy — 24:16, 25:38
• Why Authenticity Matters — 26:32
• Layers of the Earth/Relationships Analogy — 27:15–30:40
• Promotion as a Networking Tool — 31:16
• Biggest Value: Helping Family, Not Getting Investment — 34:01–35:54

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Takeaways

• Intentional, research-driven outreach sets you apart.
• Start with small, natural opportunities for engagement.
• Building genuine connections is about authenticity, empathy, and seeing the other person as human.
• Give before you ask; support others’ goals and be memorable by being helpful.
• Value in networking can come in surprising, unpredictable ways—sometimes far beyond your original goals.

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This episode is a master class on turning “cold” outreach into warm, lasting relationships by showing up as your authentic self and always striving to give as much as you get.

Transcript

[Jason Pfeiffer]

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[Jason Pfeiffer]

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This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of

[Nicole Lapin]

Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the help and help callers solve their work problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

[Nicole Lapin]

And it starts now. So, Jason. Yes, oftentimes on this show, we talk about bad emails.

We do.

We read bad emails. We don't give people's last names because we're not bad people.

No, this isn't about outing people. It's about learning and growing and rinsing

and repeating and sending the best emails you possibly can. Learning from others mistakes so that you don't make them. Jinx.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stop.

[Nicole Lapin]

But I thought it was only fair to highlight a good email.

People send good emails too.

They do send good emails, and that's a learning and growing experience as well. And I received an awesome email from a woman named Julie.

[Julie Griggs]

Whoa.

[Nicole Lapin]

And Julie is in New York, and I invited her on the show.

Amazing.

Apparently she doesn't know exactly why, which is so cool. So she's gonna hear it for the first time how awesome she is.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Nicole Lapin]

To be clear, you sent what apparently is a very good email to Nicole,

which are rare, by the way, and

that has landed you in this room.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Wow.

[Nicole Lapin]

And you don't even know why you're here.

[Julie Griggs]

I had no idea why I'm here. I'm also really bad at accepting nice compliments, like, so I'm already going to be read, but thank you, that's very kind.

[Nicole Lapin]

I like how you were transitioning into the good email. And then when you turned it to Julie, she was genuinely surprised that you were setting up, talking about her.

[Julie Griggs]

I mean, who knew sliding into DMs actually works.

[Nicole Lapin]

It does work. It doesn't often work. And Jason and I both get a lot of DM slips. Not the fun, sexy kind.

No.

At least I don't.

No, I don't either.

But like the nerdy business questions, will you invest? Will you be my mentor? Like, will you be my best friend or whatever. And so Julie, we get a lot of those.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Julie, just. Just to set some contrast up before we actually talk about you and, and

how awesome you are and how you're so nice.

[Julie Griggs]

Also, my email was, will you invest? Will you be my mentor? And will you be my best friend?

[Nicole Lapin]

But there was. Yes. And there was great lead up to it and we'll explain why. And you're the example of what other people should follow.

[Julie Griggs]

Thank you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You're welcome.

[Nicole Lapin]

So, in contrast, not from Julie.

This is hilarious.

Came this DM on LinkedIn to me, hi, Jason. I am currently gainfully employed, which is strange because the person's bio says currently unemployed, but we're just going to roll with. It says, I am currently gainfully employed. I would definitely love to talk to you if you have a minute or two and then a phone number. So I'm not calling that person, because it doesn't. Why would I do that? And so I decided to respond and I just said, thank you for your interests. I don't have the time to connect

to, which was very generous.

Thank you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I would have deleted it.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. There was no reason for me to respond to that. That person didn't do anything. They didn't communicate their value or that they have paid any attention to me or my work or why I would want to talk to them. Anyway, the response to my response was the following. That's a shame. I could be an invaluable asset to you and yours. You have my number if you find a minute to talk. It would certainly be a great investment of your time.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

P.S.

[Nicole Lapin]

i wish I didn't have the time to talk because that would mean I was maxing my earning potential and have no time to make any more money. Seems like a great problem to have, my friend.

What an asshole.

So that's the world you're competing in.

[Julie Griggs]

Okay, well, if the bar is that

low, then I'm great.

[Nicole Lapin]

Crushing it. So that's an example of a terrible dm.

Yes.

And that is not the only terrible DM you get.

No, I get them all the time.

Many, many varietals of that. And so do I. Yeah. And oftentimes I don't respond. You are very generous and you do respond.

And what I'm excited to hear from Julie, before we actually get into what you wrote here is you are in the position that the people who are often messaging us are in, which is to say, you are building something. You are a founder. You are trying to reach beyond your immediate network to people who can be helpful in any variety of ways. And that can be really hard. And I'm sure you've tried every warm intro you can, but you're also going cold.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You're nodding a lot.

[Nicole Lapin]

So tell me how you have thought about outreach and what has worked so far.

[Julie Griggs]

It's a great question. Okay, so I'm a little bit different because I Don't have the traditional founder background. I was a health care provider before I started a company. And so for me, when I'm outreaching, it's more so trying to build a network of people that I feel share in my, like, personal values and if my company is wildly successful, how the success, success of my company will allow them to be more successful and then what they'll do with that success. So I don't just do a million cold outreaches, like for fun. Who has time for that unless you're doing a message like that? Yeah, it's more thoughtful and it's more intentional with who I'm reaching out to. Hence my best friend, Nicole Lapin. But it's the truth. It needs to be intentional and it's mind blow. I mean, I have like $25 to my name and I'm getting messages on LinkedIn, hey, do you want to invest in my startup? I can send you my deck. And I'm like, dude, like, just Google, like there's zero percent chance I can. I can't even invest in my own startup right now. So, like, there's no thought to it. And if that's how it's rubbing me, then I can only imagine how it's rubbing people that actually can invest when they get messages like that.

[Nicole Lapin]

So why did you want to be my best friend?

[Julie Griggs]

So many reasons. Honestly, I'll be totally like transparent. Why?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

She's here for them all.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah, I'm here for all the reasons. I think really what resonated was in your book when you talk about your struggles with working so hard and burning yourself out. I very much related to that. Like I mentioned, I'm a healthcare provider. So when I was in school, it was that, like, I have to be the best, have to be the best, have to balance everything. And then you just kind of crash. But it's the comeback that happens afterwards, which is like the hardest part. And I think what you've done is incredible. At breakfast, this weren't my parents, I was explaining to my dad, that's why my sister and I love you. Because I think a lot of people struggle with mental health. And one talking about it is huge. And to like being proud of it in a way where it's like, yeah, I struggled with that, but like, look at me now and here I am. And I think you probably have a much better head on your shoulders now after that because you have a layer of empathy that other people don't have because they haven't experienced that.

[Nicole Lapin]

What do you think of that?

[Julie Griggs]

Do you want to be my best friend?

I do, yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Julie, what you said a minute ago was that you were looking to build a network and then your answer to this question was all, in that space. You are about absorbing what somebody else has put into the world,

[Jason Pfeiffer]

seeing who

[Nicole Lapin]

you connect with, and then utilizing your insights and your overlapping experiences to try to build that connection to them. And that is not to say that you're just out to make friends because you are building a company. So you had actual asks of Nicole in the message, which I suppose at some point we should actually read at least part of, but I just like. Applause for oh, thank you, Julie. Yeah, in contrast to that, I mean, look, that email that I or that DM that I read was uniquely terrible, but was very, very similar to most outreach that most people get in that there was no investment of time made from the person reaching out before reaching out. And you have taken the opposite approach, which is, I think, the reason that you're going to have a lot of success connecting with people.

[Julie Griggs]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. And you can tell when somebody's read your book or invested time. I've called people out for not actually reading the book, but saying they have. And so I was introduced to you. I'm not sure if it was a DM slip first, maybe you remember, or a cameo request.

[Julie Griggs]

Cameo, yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

So cameo for anyone who doesn't know is this website that I have like a weird love hate relationship with.

I think everyone does.

Yeah.

Yeah. So cameo is a platform where someone can pay to have a person of note or whatever make a video for them following whatever instructions. So. So it could be like, hey, can you film a happy birthday message to my sister? That kind of thing that.

Right, right. That's right. Or you know, more congratulatory or something like that, like for a launch, which I believe was the message you sent me for the launch of your company, Foreplay.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah, so it was my sister, actually. I think what happened was she bought your book and part of that was the cameo. And so she was like, this would be so cool to show my sister some love that she's launching her business.

[Nicole Lapin]

I did do. It's all coming back to me. I did do a pre order incentive that I would do a cameo if you pre ordered the book, which actually

[Julie Griggs]

it was smart incentive.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think that's a good incentive.

I forgot about that one. That was a good one.

[Julie Griggs]

People go crazy for the cameo. So I think that that was a good incentive.

Thank you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I did.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. So I worked with Cameo that was part of the love and the love hate. And I said, you know, I'll fulfill these. I'll give the money to charity or they'll be free or whatever. I don't remember exact deal. It was Julie's sister came in and I guess ordered Ms. Independent got the cameo. I saw the request. I read essentially what she wrote, but I was like, oh, this is cool company. This is actually. I like that this time. And so I made you the cameo. And then she put it on social media with the cutest reaction ever. It was just so sweet.

[Julie Griggs]

Well, it was so unexpected, which is why it's a great, it was a great incentive.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you.

And, and so this is really smart because again, if we're just tracking how do you get in touch with people, then what you did was you identified the lowest barrier to entry, which in this case was there was a way to get in touch and get some amount of information about yourself in front of Nicole. All you had to do is pre order the book like it was, it was that easy. And she'll do a thing and then the next step is, what do you make of that? What do you do to then try to continue that engagement? And just to be clear, this is not like a lesson in basically how to butter up Nicole, but rather that, that the whole world is people who in one way or another are trying to connect with other people to help build things and further goals and make connections and build networks. And that can be really hard. So how do you bridge that gulf? And you did it by taking the smallest step first and then trying to build from there. So we went from cameo to social media posts. That was cute. So that it landed on her radar. And then what? And then this email and then I

think a DM message.

[Julie Griggs]

Okay, that's kind to say a DM message. It was like 100.

[Nicole Lapin]

I found it really flattering. Well, first of all, it's hard to do pre order campaigns for any author, right? And so when, when anyone says, like, I don't know how to be helpful because our advice often is like, don't ask for help out of the gate.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Be helpful.

[Nicole Lapin]

And then somebody's like, I don't have any of the things to be helpful. I have $25 in my account. What can I do? But you can, because authors care about selling their books, they care about support. And so you can be helpful in other little ways.

And so you would be surprised, just global note. You'd be surprised how people who seem to have all the resources and connections still Feel like they are absolutely helpless when they are trying to do their own thing. And so being able to step. I mean, like, I am literally having a DM exchange right now with a very successful person who is launching a book who is feeling crazy because he just cannot figure out how to get more people to pay attention to this. And I'm trying to offer my advice, even though I have fewer connections and far fewer resources. And so, like, anybody stepping in and being helpful at a moment in which you identify that somebody else needs help, they will love you for it.

Oh, yeah, I just had a call. I don't know if I told you with, like, one of the biggest celebrities ever asking for my help. I'm like, what? I'm sorry, is this real life?

Yeah.

This makes no sense. And everybody needs help. That's why we have a show.

Everyone's vulnerable at some point. Okay, so a million DMs.

I don't remember them to be a million, but somehow I gave you my email or. You gave me your email. You got into the email.

[Julie Griggs]

I asked you for the email. Okay. I said, I want to send you a more formal. I would like to send you a more formal, you know, email. Is it. Is there a way I can reach out to you? And you were very kind that you gave me your. Your email because I did not expect you. I thought you were gonna be like, here is info at my. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I didn't.

[Nicole Lapin]

First of all, the concept for her company was really interesting too. So she handled it the right way. She did her research, she did all the things. And also she has a cool product.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Nicole Lapin]

Which maybe pause, because thus far in this episode, you are just Julie person in a chair. So why don't you explain a little bit of who you are in the company.

[Julie Griggs]

So I'm Julie in the chair. I am a healthcare provider, like I said, turned co founder of a app for singles called fourplay, spelled F O U R P L A Y. And it is for single friends to team up and then double date other pairs of single friends. My co founder is my best friend. She is a nurse. And so we very much are on a mission to create a healthier and safer way for singles to experience dating in a way that's also fucking fun. And quite frankly, and less pressure. So that's my story.

[Nicole Lapin]

I love it. And so you're in a stage now where you're looking for what?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Everything.

[Nicole Lapin]

Cause it's at your early stage.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah, at a stage now where we're looking for investors. We're in the middle of raising our pre seed round, we feel very confident that we were able to achieve product market fit in New York. We bootstrapped it to over 10,000 users before we asked a single person for a dollar. Thought that was important.

[Nicole Lapin]

Incredible.

[Julie Griggs]

And just really trying to create a strong brand that our values are very obvious and it's bubble wrapped in a fun name.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay. Love it.

Very clever.

Yeah.

And I love naming as you know.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

It's a very good name.

[Julie Griggs]

It is very good name.

[Nicole Lapin]

So then I got an email from you and it was a very clear email, but it wasn't super stuffy. It was like you could tell that she knew my lingo and how I talked and it like it felt very familiar to me. In fact, I forwarded it to Jason.

Can I read a little bit of it? Is that, is that.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah, I'm already read, so it's fine. Go ahead.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay, I'll just start. Hey Nicole, first and foremost, congratulations on all your recent accomplishments. It's truly incredible what you have achieved. We can spare Nicole even more.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah. Her head on boosting the day.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, this is going to get ridiculous. But anyway. But the point is that what I really love is that even though you have now connected and exchanged a whole bunch of DMs, you didn't just send her an email and you're like, okay, great, here's what I want.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Nicole Lapin]

You're still in relationship building mode. You can see it in this, which

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I think is just really smart.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay. Now after enough buttering up of Nicole, we turn to secondly.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

As we raise our pre seed round

[Nicole Lapin]

for our startup Foreplay Social, we are thinking about building out our advisory board. After reading Ms. Independent. Love bringing it right back. Ms. Independent. Being one of Nicole's books and learning more about who you are as a person, you continue to be top of mind when we think of advisors.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Okay.

[Nicole Lapin]

So. And then you give some background on the company, really valuable background, and then some background on you, which is awesome. And now we get into more of the company. We started raising our pre seed last month. You name a whole bunch of names and then you start moving into your ask. This is very, very well structured because it. Well, have you gotten this far with lots of other people? Like you went from the small intro to like getting in front of them to making an ask and have you refined this process along the way?

[Julie Griggs]

I'll tell you, I don't like to like brag about myself, but I will say what I'm the most, what I'm the most proud of is that this network that I have built did not exist at all before foreplay. We did not have connections. We did not have a lot of warm intros. But I think it was just being a human and acknowledging that the person on the other end is a human and probably all day is being asked for favors and whatnot. So it's definitely been refined. I think there's, like, a million blogs out there for, like, how to structure the best cold, you know, outbox or whatever, inbox, whatever it is. So it's definitely been refined. But I think that I've spent the longest time on that email because there was so much that I wanted to say, but I didn't want it to be overwhelming. I didn't want her to be like, who is this crazy fan? And I wanted her to know that it wasn't done on a whim. Like, I was very thoughtful and very intentional because I felt like there was genuinely a lot we could talk about, even if nothing came of it beyond just, like, the conversation of talking about life.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stick around. Help Wanted.

[Nicole Lapin]

We'll be right back.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. All right, well, for the first and probably only time in Help Wanted history, we're going to come out of this ad break by telling you the listener surprise. Everything that you just heard happened two years ago. We recorded what you just heard two years ago at the very beginning of this show. We had booked a studio. We had a little open space. Julie had. I can't even remember because it's been two years, somehow had gotten into that seat. She didn't know what she was doing. She had no idea what she was even there to talk about. We had that nice conversation about how great she was at Outreach, and then we ran out of studio time, and so we had to interrupt in the middle, and we all just fled the studio. And Julie described the whole experience to me as a fever dream. She was like. She showed up. She didn't know what it was. It happened really fast. Suddenly, it abruptly ended. She was like. And we had all these intentions to finish that episode, and then we just never did. And then two years passed, but we never forgot. We never forgot.

[Nicole Lapin]

So we will say, Julie Griggs, welcome back to Help Wanted.

[Julie Griggs]

I'm honored to be here. I feel like I still look the same that I did two years ago. I hope you guys agree. Nicole, you're a plus one now. So there's a lot. Jason's happening exactly the same. I think we're all aging pretty well.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. We did pretty good. So, Julie, the reason why we decided to finally end this episode is because a very interesting thing happened, which is that two years ago, when we did not know you and we sat down for that conversation that everyone just heard, we were praising you for your incredible cold outreach skills. You had done a really good job of making a connection out of nothing. And then a funny thing happened, which is that you showed up, we met you very briefly. It ended abruptly. You didn't get an episode out of it because we never aired it. But you flash forward two years and we all know you. It feels we're all homies quite well now.

[Nicole Lapin]

We're all homies now.

[Julie Griggs]

We're family now we're all. I'm not even convinced this episode's going to air either. But, like, here we are.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You built great relationships with all three of us, Me, Nicole, and Morgan, who produces the show. Nicole, what have you guys done?

[Nicole Lapin]

Like, I don't know, been invited over to Passover.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Invited over to Passover. And Julie, I had you on this podcast as you for entrepreneur. I ran into you in Manhattan. We've talked about a couple of different things. You and Morgan have gotten dinner and hung out, and Morgan invested some very small dollars in your company. And what that says to me is that thing that you did really well with cold outreach wasn't about cold outreach at all. It was actually just about being really good at building relationships. That's what I have ultimately seen. And on this second half here, two years later, I just want to talk about that because I want to know

[Nicole Lapin]

how you do that.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I don't know that you think about it or how you have some strategy for it, but you're just really good at connecting with people, and I think people should learn from you about how

[Nicole Lapin]

to do that the best.

[Julie Griggs]

That's really, really nice, and thank you. I guess it makes a little bit more sense now why I went into healthcare originally, right. Because it's what I genuinely like to do is connect to people. Why I want to do primary care and follow people throughout their life and then get to know their kids and feel like part of the family. So I think people underestimate my co founder and I a lot because we came from healthcare backgrounds. But I think it's probably one of the reasons why we do really well in the startup world because we actually cultivate genuine relationships that are not transactional.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You know what that reminds me of? So my friend Jonathan Goodman has a book that's about to come out called the Obvious Choice. He's A very successful entrepreneur. And in the book he writes about this thing that he calls leapfrog skills. His argument is, like, if you just focus on the thing that you're like, you do the primary skill that you have, then that's great. But it actually has a kind of diminishing returns in terms of growth. But when you combine it with other skills that he calls leapfrog skills, like writing or human psychology or sales, like these things that maybe don't feel like they necessarily have something to do with the thing that you do, that is what creates exponential growth. And I flag it because it's okay, you're at healthcare. You started this company that doesn't have on its face anything to do with healthcare. And you might think, why can I do that? Because I'm from healthcare. I don't know anything about building a, like a social connection app. But actually you do, because healthcare was where you refined people skills and relationship skills and the ability to, like, understand people and understand their lives. And that is a skill that you can pour into something else and. And have a competitive advantage that others don't because they don't have the experience and the skills that you are bringing to this new space.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah, I think EQ is a very big part of being successful in business. I know you guys have spoken about that at nauseam because I actually listen to your podcast.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, yeah?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Julie Griggs]

I don't know. I think human connection and being able to form a relationship is critical to being successful both externally, but also even just within our own startup. Being able to connect to my employee and make him feel like a human. He has told us several times that we are the only employers that have ever that he's had that have made him feel really valued, have remembered his birthday, and that's been a super rewarding part of the startup life.

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you feel like this was always something you did? Is did little Julie make all the friends? Were you extroverted? Did you ever feel socially awkward? Have you just been a social butterfly since the womb?

[Julie Griggs]

It's funny question. I actually have really bad social anxiety, but only in one situation. And this is also something that I really relate to you on, which is probably why I love you guys so much. But I have, like, genuine social anxiety with small talk. I can't do it. It is the most draining thing. It feels so forced, so fake, so inauthentic. And when I'm in a situation where the person will not get deep with me, we won't go into all of our traumas.

I'm Like, I have to get out of here immediately.

I feel so uncomfortable. I have always loved people. I think people are fascinating. I think we all are the way we are because of what we've been through. I think that's why you cannot judge a book by its cover until you have read the story.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Hearing you say that gives me some insight into how we are here. Two years later and you went from random stranger who popped into a studio for an abruptly short amount of time to someone that we all think of as a friend, which is that you. Well, so first of all, you just kept reaching out. But also, you always had something interesting to say and you always wanted to be someone that I always wanted to engage with. Because it's like what you're saying about having no tolerance for small talk, I think is really important. Like, a lot of people will follow up and it'll just always be kind of surface level and boring. But if you have that innate desire to connect with someone as an actual person, then you start these conversations and it's, oh, that's a very interesting person. I want to follow up on that thing that they just said. Now Suddenly we've exchanged 10 emails because we're not talking about. This person doesn't have an agenda. They're just interesting, and I like them. And I've been thinking about this recently, like, where do I like to engage with people? And similar to you, I find small talk very boring. It is a thing you have to go through sometimes for at least some short period of time to get to somewhere interesting. And I came up with this little theory which I'm still working out, but I'll work it out with you guys out loud, which is that people are like the Earth. So the Earth, if you're being really simple about it, has three layers, right? Which is a crust, mantle, and core, right? So the crust is where we live. That's like the top layer. And then you get underneath it there's this large mantle layer, which is the majority of actually the planet. And then there's the core, which is this very dense thing in the middle, okay? So people are like that, which is to say that there is surface level, right? And then underneath. I've come to think of it as the comfortably personal. That's where people will engage. If you get them there and you connect well enough, that's the most interesting place to get with most people, which is it's under the surface. It's where their real thoughts and interests live. It's where you can build real connections. You're not going to get to the core with most people. Most people's core is not available to. To others or sometimes to even themselves. If you think about, like, how many people in your life have engaged with your core just like the deepest middle, the answer is like somewhere between 0 and 4, probably. It's like very, very small. So for the average person, I think what the goal is and what I have come to think of it for me is let me see how I can get through the crust. But then if they will go with me into the comfortable middle, that is where relationships are born and that's where connections happen. And that's just what's interesting. And I think that some people are afraid to go there or some people aren't. Aren't sure they're allowed in there. And what I'm hearing from you, Julius, is an intentionality to figure out how to get there. Because once you do, then you stop being a fact. A lot of people follow up with me all the time and they're just a fact. They're just like a name and an email and it just shows up every once in a while. And I was like, ah, yes, that thing has happened. That person has emailed me. And you become a person. And once you're a person to someone else, then a relationship can really form.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah. First of all, that was so deep. I feel like I am too sober for that and like, should be smoking something now. That was amazing. I loved every second of that. Completely agree with it. I think there's also another layer separate from the earth that if I had to guess as to why you two very graciously took me back and brought me back onto the show. I think there's another reason. Curious if. I think it's also probably because when I reach out to you, it's. I'm also most the time trying to promote you. And when I share things, it's to promote you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's true.

[Julie Griggs]

And I'm not. It's. I think people also like you. YouTube didn't have to have me back on here. You probably felt like you wanted to because you wanted to do something nice for me. Because I like to share your stuff and do that also. And I think people don't like takers and also that are givers.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I had never thought of it. But it's true. You never even asked if the episode that you taped would air.

[Julie Griggs]

The one thing I did ask you for something. I asked if you knew anybody that would potentially be interested in investing in foreplay. When I was raising Again, Julie, I

[Jason Pfeiffer]

didn't even remember that you would ask me for something because every other time that I've heard from you, it's always just been, hey, I shared this thing that you did, or I really liked that episode or whatever. Like, that's what I associate. Which means that when you do make an ask, it feels totally organic and doesn't even lodge in my memory as an ask.

[Julie Griggs]

I'm glad it comes off that way because that's definitely the intention. I'm glad that it's landing the way that I want it to.

[Nicole Lapin]

So it all worked out. So it all worked out. I don't know if we're more valuable than an investment, but I hope we are.

[Julie Griggs]

You are extremely valuable. I've actually gotten a ton from the three of you, whether you realize it or not. A ton. I really have. Morgan, I go to for advice frequently. She doesn't know how to use voice notes properly, though. She sends like three to five minute ones, which is just beyond unacceptable.

That's what we all do.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's short. Oh, I sent somebody.

[Julie Griggs]

No, no, no.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I just sent somebody a 30 minute voice memo.

[Julie Griggs]

We have an internal policy at Foreplay Social. If the Voice notes over 40 seconds, no one's listening to it. You got it? 40 seconds. 40 seconds.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

No.

[Julie Griggs]

Then send consecutive ones. But it's gotta be quick.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I would get fired from your company. Yeah, 39 to spare.

[Nicole Lapin]

We all do, like, personal podcasts for each other.

[Julie Griggs]

But no Morgan. I've asked for advice several times and she has really, really helped me a lot. Genuinely, really has. So I'm so grateful to have her in my network. Jason, I love your newsletter and learn from it. I actually had a phone call today with somebody who I'm like, pretty convinced read your newsletter because she was like, yeah. Everyone always says to me, why do

I give my secrets away?

And I say, because I'm the secret sauce. And I was like, this is literally Jason Pfeiffer.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I literally. Yeah, I just wrote that.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah. And Nicole Lapin. I've been a fan since day one because of you. I'm invested in Russell 2000 and I bit.

[Nicole Lapin]

Hell, yeah.

[Julie Griggs]

And all these things. So, no, I've gotten a ton of value from the three of you. See, it's funny, you never know how something is going to play out and you may go into something with one intention. Right. My initial intention with Nicole Appen was I need this woman to invest in my company. Right. That was. I like, needed her.

If she's my.

She's an investor, then this Company's gonna blow up. And that was, like, that's all I thought was important. And then that hasn't happened. Morgan has invested.

[Nicole Lapin]

Surprise. Wait, I didn't know that you were asking me personally to invest. I thought you were asking me to introduce you to investors.

[Julie Griggs]

No.

Back in the day, this was, like, at this point, now we're talking, like, how many years ago? If the podcast was two years ago, this had to have been, like, 18 years ago.

I don't even know.

I was, like, in preschool hitting you up. That was my initial intention. And the value that I thought Nicole Lapin would bring would be a check. Right. But that's so not at all how it played out. And I actually got way more value from the three of you because it transcends the check. I have, I believe, a lifelong friendship now. I have really incredible smart connections who are willing to have me on the podcast two years later. Not really sure why still, but honored. And so the most important thing also, which is the least obvious thing, is my parents have a lot more financial security because they met with Nicole and.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

[Nicole Lapin]

We set your parents up with a financial advisor. We sent them to creative planning, and they're working together.

[Julie Griggs]

Yeah. And that was genuinely my biggest stressor, was all this pressure I was putting on myself that I had to make foreplay successful so that I could give back to my parents that my dad could retire. It was literally my biggest stressor. And my dad, who told me he would never be able to afford to retire, has now knocked down to four days a week from five. He doesn't work a late night anymore. He apparently is going to retire in two years. And so that was the most value I could have ever gotten from knowing you. So, see, the answer is not always so obvious.

[Nicole Lapin]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin.

[Nicole Lapin]

Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our [e-mail] for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram, Money News and Tik Tok Money News Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

All right, well, talk to you soon,

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Sam.