"I Was Laid Off... How Can I Make Myself Feel Better?"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Was Laid Off... How Can I Make Myself Feel Better?"

Podcast Information

• Title: Help Wanted
• Host/Author: Money News Network
• Description: Do you have a work problem? We have solutions. On Help Wanted, Entrepreneur editor-in-chief Jason Feifer and money expert Nicole Lapin help you stay ahead of the curve and make money doing what you love—no matter if you’re trying to impress your boss or if you ARE the boss.
• Episode Title: I Was Laid Off... How Can I Make Myself Feel Better?
• Release Date: October 22, 2024

---

1. Introduction to the Topic

The episode delves into the often-overlooked emotional turmoil that accompanies being laid off, a topic seldom addressed alongside the conventional advice of re-entering the job market or optimizing LinkedIn profiles. Hosts Jason Feifer and Nicole Lapin aim to shed light on the psychological impact of job loss and provide actionable insights to help listeners navigate this challenging period.

2. Guest Introduction: Yowei Shaw

Timestamp: [01:33]

Jason introduces Yowei Shaw, a podcast host, producer, and self-proclaimed emotional investigative journalist who experienced a layoff firsthand. Yowei’s background includes seven years at NPR as the host of the podcast Invisibilia. Her initiative to create her own podcast, Proxy, stems from her desire to explore and understand the emotional complexities surrounding layoffs and other personal challenges.

3. Yowei Shaw’s Layoff Experience

Timestamp: [02:34]

Yowei recounts her layoff from NPR amidst financial strains that led to a 10% reduction in staff. She shares the immediate aftermath, highlighting the collective panic and personal anxiety experienced during the month leading up to her layoff.

Notable Quote:

• Yowei Shaw: “I had an entire month of just having this collective panic attack.” ([02:47])

4. Emotional Impact of Being Laid Off

Timestamp: [03:13] – [05:46]

Yowei delves into the profound emotional effects post-layoff, including grief, shame, and a plummet in self-worth. Despite understanding intellectually that the layoff wasn’t personal, she felt an overwhelming sense of deficiency and rejection.

Notable Quotes:

• Yowei Shaw: “My entire body felt like a scuffed knee.” ([04:36])
• Yowei Shaw: “I wanted to hide from my friends and family, even though I knew I should be with them.” ([05:00])

5. The Layoff Process and HR’s Role

Timestamp: [06:41] – [12:30]

Yowei describes the awkward and impersonal nature of her layoff meeting, which was conducted over Zoom with her department head and HR representative present. She criticizes the lack of genuine empathy and the scripted nature of the conversation, noting that HR reps often receive minimal training on handling such sensitive interactions.

Notable Quotes:

• Yowei Shaw: “I cried seven times.” ([07:57])
• Yowei Shaw: “There is very little training around how to be human during these interactions.” ([11:37])

6. Understanding the “Black Box” of Layoffs

Timestamp: [14:26] – [16:55]

The discussion moves to the opaque criteria companies use to determine layoffs, leading to burning questions like “Why me?” Yowei explains that without transparent reasons, individuals often internalize the layoff as a personal failure, which exacerbates negative emotions.

Notable Quote:

• Yowei Shaw: “I think that as humans, we want to complete the circle. We want to know the answer, and we're going to fill in the blank otherwise.” ([15:49])

7. Coping Mechanisms and Emotional Recovery

Timestamp: [22:24] – [34:43]

Yowei shares her unique coping strategies, including creating a DIY massage parlor in her basement and producing a humorous music video, both of which helped her process and reframe her emotions positively. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining mental and physical health, seeking support from understanding friends and family, and engaging in creative outlets to regain a sense of control.

Notable Quotes:

• Yowei Shaw: “I highly recommend coming up with some project to stay in close community with your people.” ([34:11])
• Yowei Shaw: “Protect your mental health and your physical health as you apply for your next job.” ([28:30])

8. Advice for Navigating Stigma and Rebuilding Confidence

Timestamp: [16:55] – [31:11]

Jason and Yowei discuss the stigma associated with layoffs and unemployment, highlighting research that shows unemployed candidates are less likely to secure interviews compared to those currently employed. Jason offers practical advice on taking control of one's narrative during job interviews to counteract potential biases.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Feifer: “Take control of the story that people understand of you.” ([25:33])
• Yowei Shaw: “It's worth noting that the reason why there are so many layoff horror stories has to do with the fact that there's very little regulation around how layoffs have to go down.” ([14:26])

9. Rebuilding and Moving Forward

Timestamp: [36:47] – [40:26]

Yowei reflects on the illusion of control she held before her layoff and how the experience shattered that belief. Both hosts agree on the importance of creating new opportunities and sources of income to regain self-trust and control over one’s career trajectory.

Notable Quotes:

• Yowei Shaw: “I realized, you can work as hard as you can, and you can perform as well as anybody else, and you can still lose your job.” ([36:47])
• Jason Feifer: “You're shifting the trust that you have in an institution and you're starting to put it on yourself.” ([38:08])

10. Conclusion and Future Endeavors

Timestamp: [40:26] – [41:16]

Yowei introduces her independent podcast, Proxy, which focuses on emotional questions and mysteries, further emphasizing her commitment to exploring and understanding complex emotional landscapes. The episode wraps up with a light-hearted exchange, reinforcing the supportive and empathetic tone of the discussion.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Emotional Journey: Beyond the practical steps of finding a new job, the emotional aftermath of a layoff is profound and multifaceted, often leading to feelings of shame and loss of self-worth.
• HR’s Role: Companies need better training for HR representatives to handle layoffs with genuine empathy and humanity.
• Coping Strategies: Engaging in creative projects, seeking support from loved ones, and maintaining mental and physical health are crucial for recovery.
• Stigma and Job Search: There is significant stigma attached to layoffs, making it essential to proactively manage one's narrative during job searches.
• Reclaiming Control: Shifting focus to creating new opportunities and building self-trust can empower individuals to navigate post-layoff challenges effectively.

Notable Quotes:

• Yowei Shaw: “My entire body felt like a scuffed knee.” ([04:36])
• Jason Feifer: “Take control of the story that people understand of you.” ([25:33])
• Yowei Shaw: “I realized, you can work as hard as you can, and you can perform as well as anybody else, and you can still lose your job.” ([36:47])

---

Conclusion This episode of Help Wanted provides a deep and empathetic exploration of the emotional challenges faced by individuals who have been laid off. Through Yowei Shaw’s personal experiences and the hosts' insightful discussions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the psychological impacts of job loss and practical strategies to overcome them. The episode underscores the importance of addressing the emotional aspects of layoffs to facilitate healing and personal growth.

Transcript

[Nicole Lapin]

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a Co Host Network, which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

This is help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor in Chief of.

[Nicole Lapin]

Entrepreneur Magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

[Nicole Lapin]

And it starts now.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

If you yourself haven't been laid off recently, you probably know someone who has. It feels like there is a rising tide, a very scary rising tide of layoffs everywhere. Intel just laid off 15,000 employees. Microsoft is reducing its headcount by 7%. And you usually hear the typical advice about this, about how to hit the job market and all the things you should do and all the ways you should use LinkedIn. But there is another that people don't talk enough about, and that is the emotional experience of being laid off and also how not understanding that emotional experience can hold you back from moving on and finding the next chapter, the next journey. Today we are going to dig into that with someone who has experienced it herself and then reported the absolute hell out of it. Yowei Shaw, Podcast host, producer, self proclaimed emotional investigative journalist Voice. You may know if you love podcasts was laid off, now has her own podcast called Proxy, where she began by exploring this very experience. Yowei, welcome to Help Wanted.

[Yowei Shaw]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Thanks for being here. Can you set us up here? Where were you laid off from? What was that like? Why did you want to dig into what it was like?

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, let's go. So last year I was working for NPR as the host of this podcast, Invisibilia. I've been at NPR and with that show for seven years. I loved my job, I loved my team. And then NPR started having financial challenges, like a lot of media outlets, unfortunately. And so they told us they needed to lay 10% of us off and we would.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And you were one of them.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes. And they told us we would find out in a month. So we had an entire month of just having this collective panic attack.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Did you feel like you were in some kind of Game of Thrones situation where people angling to be saved?

[Yowei Shaw]

I felt all of the things. There was absolutely that kind of feeling. Like I would show up to a Zoom meeting, and even though I didn't want my brain to do this, I would look at the people in the room and just start calculating their worth versus my worth. Even though I don't think you can calculate human worth in that way. But I would think about download numbers and how much experience people had. It was really fucked up.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

But also during that month, I saw a lot of solidarity. I had never felt closer to my colleagues during that month. People really banded together. People really helped each other out. In staff meetings, we would tag team asking questions of management. So it was also a really beautiful experience. But, yeah, basically I got laid off. And I knew it was going to suck. Because losing your livelihood is not fun. Yes, exactly. But I didn't expect it to suck as bad as it eventually did. So basically, after I got laid off, I went through the usual grief. There was a lot of laying in bed, a lot of fried chicken.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

A lot of Prosecco, a lot of RuPaul's Drag Race. But what I did not expect was the shame. And I did not expect just like my self worth to be on the floor. Like, the way I describe it is, my entire body felt like a scuffed knee. And even though I knew the layoff wasn't about me, that's what they literally told me. I still felt deficient. I still felt like NPR had rejected everything about me. So in the weeks after, the months after, I wanted to hide from my friends and family, even though I knew I should be with them. Even though I knew they wanted to support me, when I saw people, I felt like they were looking at me differently. Like, I. I felt like a video game character whose points had gone way down as I was just, like, I could literally hear the sound in my head. Go, do, do. I felt deficient. And there was also this whole period of nobody could say anything right around me. Like, I was a terror. Thank you to everybody who dealt with me during that time. People would say they were sorry, and I be like, do you think I'm pathetic? Do you think I'm not going to be okay?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Wow.

[Yowei Shaw]

And then people would not mention the layoff. And I'd be like, that's so rude of you. Like, why aren't you acknowledging my pain? Of course I didn't say these things. These are all conversations I'm having with myself in my head. And it presented this real mystery for me because I knew that I had about as good of a layoff as you can get. Like, I had because of our excellent union contract. I got severance. I had advanced notice. I don't have kids. I had savings. I have 15 years of experience in podcasting. So I knew that, like, I'd probably be okay and find another job. People immediately started emailing me afterwards. But, like, still, it felt so personal. And there was just this disconnect between my intellectual and emotional reality. And that's why I really wanted to report was serious about it.

[Nicole Lapin]

It sounds like you had never been laid off before, right? Because when you said they had told you it wasn't about you. Talk us through what that conversation was like. I remember my entire department was let go at cnn, and that conversation with HR was so weird to have the first time. I didn't even know what to expect. Can you walk us through what that was like?

[Yowei Shaw]

It was a weird conversation. I think it's just a weird thing that HR reps and managers have to do. It's awkward for everybody. I had mine over zoom because I live in Philadelphia. NPR is in D.C. my department head was in the meeting as well as my HR rep. And I promised myself that I wouldn't cry in the meeting. There was actually this debate on union slack ahead of the layoffs. To cry or not to cry in your layoff meeting. Should you try to let the tears flow and traumatize the people laying you off? Try to give them a stress dream or something, or should you hold back because they don't deserve any more of your humanity? And I'm a crier. So I was Like, I am not going to cry. And I even came up with a drinking game to try to prevent the tears. I told myself I would take a shot for every time I cried because I hate shots. So this was like a deterrent method.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's not usually the way that people set these drinking games up, but yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Yowei Shaw]

And so basically it did not work as you might expect. I cried seven times.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Did you take seven shots?

[Yowei Shaw]

I did not, because I am not that mean to myself. But yeah, no, during the meeting, I was crying the entire time. It felt like there was a script that the HR rep and my department head were saying. There absolutely was. I know now for my reporting, and I'm not trying to throw my HR rep under the bus. I have compassion for that job. It's a very hard job. I've talked to a lot of HR reps since that experience. But during my layoff, my HR rep seemed disconnected and it seemed like there was a weird smile on her face and it felt like she was checking Twitter, like scrolling. Because my department head was doing a lot of the talking. It felt not like a really human experience between me and my HR rep because I was mostly talking to my department head, who I had an actual connection, personal experience, like relationship with.

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you remember that day, like getting a calendar invite or something like that, where you knew the writing was on the wall? Analogous to getting a big envelope from a school. You know you're accepted or versus a small envelope and you know you're not.

[Yowei Shaw]

So this was actually a point of contention that our union. I was a shop steward at our union at npr. So we really negotiated with management to really make sure we knew what would be the communication? Like, how would we know who was getting laid off? What would be the order? Which days would which departments find out? Because it was horrible to be in a constant state of paranoia. So we basically talked it out with management and they said that they would send a calendar invite with a subject saying discussion. And that's how you knew. So I got the calendar invite at 8am the morning I knew my department was going to find out. And I was like, oh, okay, my time's up.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

It's so strange. Also because they told you what discussion would mean. Like, why use a euphemism? If they've also defined it, it might as well have just been a calendar invite that says, yeah, it would have almost been a little better.

[Yowei Shaw]

At npr, they called it riff reduction in force. Yeah, they use the word layoff sometimes. But it's very interesting how Companies try to obscure what's actually happening with these words like reduction in for even layoff is obscuring what's actually going on.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I once heard a interview with a guy whose job is to come in and turn around failing companies. And the euphemism for laying people off in these companies that need to be turned around is making them available to industry, which I think is the absolute best euphemism for letting someone go, oh my gosh, them available to industry. But I think it's worth noting that nobody in this whole chain of events feels good about this or really knows how to handle it. The HR person who you had to deal with clearly didn't handle it well. That wasn't the way to do it, but was struggling themselves. They didn't wake up in the morning and they were like, I don't care about people and I'm just going to let Yowei go in the least caring way possible. Instead, it was like they didn't sleep that night because they were so freaked out about this. And then they were really nervous the whole time and they came in with some like, coping mechanism that was really bad. It's just worth remembering that no part of this is personal and everybody kind of sucks at it because it's just a bunch of humans having to do a sort of inhuman thing.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, I would really agree with that in my reporting later on I found out from talking to HR reps there is very little training around how to be human during these interactions. So it's really just up to who you are and what the culture of your company happens to be like. There's a lot of training and a lot of preparation around legal compliance, making sure that the HR rep doesn't say anything in the layoff meeting that will get the company sued. There's a lot of preparation around who gets the emails. That's if there is preparation. Because there are wild stories where companies just. I've heard like a game show method where at one company everyone just came to a meeting and a manager just went down a list and you were either like on list A or list B.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

The bachelor get in the rose kind of situation. I don't know what people are thinking. I've had to lay people off and I'm not in hr, but when you work at a smaller company and there isn't a whole robust HR department, you do it. And the training that I got was just a previous experience of being laid off myself and seeing how that went. In that case, I got an email from my Boss who is just like, hey, you got a second? So I went into his office, he closed the door, and the very first thing he said to me was, so we're going to let you go. He was calm and explained this situation, which basically was like, it's a small team. In that case, it wasn't even a budget thing. They just didn't feel like I was pulling my weight. And frankly, I agree in retrospect. And he was really kind, and he asked if I had questions, and he listened. I remember at some point, as my head started to clear, I thought, he's really good at this. If I have to do this, I'm going to do it like this. Let me take some notes here. And that is my coping mechanism for whenever something bad is happening to me is like, how is this a lesson for next time? And then I just start to try to analyze it, like I'm almost not experiencing it myself. And now whenever I have to tell anybody about anything, like even I work with a freelancer and I have to cut the budget in some way, it's the first thing that comes out of my mouth. Or actually, I've found with freelancers, especially because it's less complicated, they actually prefer to just get the information by email because then they don't have to react live to you, which I think is actually kind of dehumanizing. I'd rather give them the opportunity to just absorb it however they want and then we can talk after. But anyway, the point of that is it is really hard to do this, and that is not to take away from the suckiness of having it being done to you, but it's worth knowing that it is not personal and nobody's trying to be a dick. It's just you're stuck in a terrible situation in which there's no winning.

[Yowei Shaw]

It's worth noting that the reason why there are so many layoff horror stories, I think, has to do with the fact that there's very little regulation around how layoffs have to go down. In the US the only piece of regulation we have is the Warren act, and it really is easy to get around. And companies will strategize around how not to have to abide by the Warren act, which basically says that if you're a company of a certain size with a certain number of employees and you lay off a certain percentage of your workforce, you have to give this much amount of advance notice, et cetera, et cetera. And that's it. That's the only regulation we have. And it's really up to every company to figure out how they're going to do this. And, Jason, that sounds like a really great, compassionate way to be laid off and to lay other people off. But I think, you know, like, it's not really in the company's interest a lot of the time.

[Nicole Lapin]

Basically, don't do a compliment sandwich. Like, it's not. There's a time and a place for a compliment sandwich. This is like a rip the Band Aid situation off. And also, you talk in the layoff trilogy about this black box of layoffs that there are, I think, a lot of questions about who gets laid off. Is there a list made? How does that list get made? I'm wondering if understanding that a little bit more helped you through this process.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes, the black box. Because the question always is, why me? Why did I get laid off? Why did I get chosen? If your entire department gets laid off, it's a little bit more, I think, easy. It's easy to answer that question. But in my case, not everyone on my team got laid off. Invisibilia was one of the few shows that got canceled. So, yeah, the black box of why me? I don't think I will ever know, even with my reporting. Talking to HR reps, they said that there are a host of reasons why you might get laid off. So the only way to find out why you actually got laid off is to talk to the people making the decision, and they're not going to tell you. And that's really hard because as humans, we want to complete the circle. We want to know the answer, and we're going to fill in the blank otherwise. And it's very easy to fill in the blank with a negative story about yourself if you happen to have that predisposed predisposition.

[Nicole Lapin]

What were the greatest hit negative stories that you had playing in your head?

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, my gosh. I think for me, I would circle around mistakes I made and just, like, ruminate and think about what I could have done differently to prevent the layoff. And I think that at the end of the day, that's a futile exercise. Like, I'm just hurting myself that way. That's not the kind of rumination you should be doing.

[Nicole Lapin]

Poison, hoping the other person will die.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. And so I think basically my reporting taught me that it's a black box. There are many possible reasons why you might have been laid off and you might never know the answer, and you just have to move on because this is something that happens to a lot of people. I think that was comforting, knowing how Often this happens to people who are really talented, experienced, who you can't point at a thing that they did wrong and they still got laid off. I think hearing other people's stories of getting laid off, that helped normalize it.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

For me, having been on the other side, where I've been a part of deciding who gets laid off, it is. It's a whole damn host of random things. It's like, what's the budget? And how many people can we fit into the budget? And. And, like, how many people do we need who are doing this thing? And we need some more resources over there on that thing. And so, like, if there are four people doing a thing and we really only need two people to do those things, and those two people can't move on to the other thing because they're not trained to do that thing, then we have to let two people go, even if we're going to hire two other people. It is so often not exactly about you. It's about, like, the needs of the company. Like, people have to remember a company's job. It's uncomfortable to hear this, but it's true. And I don't even think it's a bad thing. A company's job is not to take care of you, the employee. That's not the job of the company. The company's job is to make sure that the company sustains so that it can continue to fulfill the mission of the company. The company's job is actually to make sure that the company itself sustains, not for greedy purposes, but because the company's job is actually to fulfill the needs of its consumer. So it has to ultimately be figuring out what is the most efficient and proper way to continue to provide the product or service that our consumer relies upon. And sometimes that means making changes in how its staff are structured. And that's. I think it would be nice if every organization's job was just to take care of the people who work for it, but that's just. That's not what it is. So if you. If your emotions are tied up in whether or not you were or were not a part of the next phase of the plan to serve the consumer, then you're really losing the thread here, which makes me want to turn to the thing that we had promised up at the top of the episode here, which is, how did you navigate the emotional complexities of this for yourself so that you could see a way forward? Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back.

[Nicole Lapin]

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a Great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a Co host network which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co [e-mail] host Jason, have you ever overdrafted?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Hasn't everybody?

[Nicole Lapin]

I mean I certainly have. I famously overdrafted on a seven dollar latte and got hit with a $35 fee.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oof.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's the worst.

[Nicole Lapin]

Actual worst. But Jason, I do have a solution for this. It is Chime. A Chime checking account has fee free overdraft up to 200 bucks and a whole bunch of other game changing features that I love like Chime Checking accounts have no maintenance fees and you can get paid up to two days early with direct deposit. You should check it out Jason. It'[e-mail] MNN Ooh. I am into it and you will love this. Chime is making it easier to support friends on their financial journey and one of the ways that they're doing this is by allowing eligible members to give complimentary boosts to increase a friend's spot me limit. That means that you can help your friend's fee free overdraft limit. So if you need a hand Jason, I got you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oof. Friends helping friends make progress. I love that.

[Nicole Lapin]

I do too. So why not make your fall finances a little greener? Open your Chime account in just 2 [e-mail] MNN that's chime.com MNN as in money News Network CHIME feels like progress. Banking Services and debit card provided by the Bancorp NA or Stride Bank NA members FDIC SPOT meet eligibility requirements and overdra Limits Apply. Boosts are available to eligible CHIME members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so my coping mechanism whenever I have a feeling that is painful and confusing is to report on it. Nicole, I wonder if you, both of you, I wonder if this is if you relate.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yes, totally.

[Yowei Shaw]

And so yeah, I basically just talked to a lot of people, I talked to a lot of experts, I read a lot of books and I found some really interesting things that helped comfort me.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So our instinct is totally to go and like report things. And also we either have an outlet to then share that work with, or we can just create it. And that's not a thing that everyone can do. But I would say that that instinct to just go talk to people is something that everyone can and should do. There's a great psychological term called false consensus effect, which is the phenomenon of you assuming that everyone else thinks like you. And as it turns out, everyone does not think like you, which means that they have different strategies to solve problems. And it's really useful to go out there and just start talking to people because it'll start to show you the many different ways that you can process something or explore something. And so even if you don't turn it into a multi episode podcast arc like Yohei did, you can still get a lot of value out of just going around and talking to people. I just want to put that out there.

[Nicole Lapin]

My therapist has long told me that my coping mechanism is advocacy and it's a little different than reporting. It's this idea that some shitty thing happened to me and I want to make sure shady things don't happen to other people. And I think that's something that can be relatable to others outside of media.

[Yowei Shaw]

I love that. Yeah, talking to other people who've been laid off and understand what you're going through is actually one of the number one things that experts told me is important to do afterwards because you're going to be in this situation that people will be looking at you differently. Here's the thing I found, which is there is real stigma against people who get laid off. Real stigma against people who are unemployed. Research has found that job candidates who are unemployed are about half as likely to get an interview than candidates who have the exact same credentials, but currently have a job. And the sociologist I talked to, he interviewed a bunch of recruiters about what do they think about people who get laid off, or how do they think about that during the job hiring process? And these recruiters straight up admitted to discriminating against people who've been laid off and are unemployed. It was a way to whittle down the pile of resumes. And they would say things like, yeah, if you've been laid off, that does raise a question mark, because did you do something to earn that layoff? Presumably the company's keeping the best performers. And that was, like, one of the first very comforting things I found, which was like, I thought I was going crazy. I thought I was just overreacting from the research. Probably some percentage of those people were looking at me differently. And so that. That was comforting in a weird way.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Before you move on to that, can I offer some advice, if not useful to you, to others who are like, okay, well, crap, if there's a stigma, if I've got the stink on me now, what am I supposed to do about that? And the answer is that you have to take control of the story that people understand of you, like you tell the story of you. And so that doesn't mean lying about not getting late or whatever, but introducing maybe some context in anticipation of people wondering why you were laid off, and then also spinning that into some kind of positive can be really useful. So I was just talking to a woman who is struggling to find a job now after being laid off, and she is applying for these roles. And she doesn't have the exact background that these companies are looking for because she was trained in a different way. And so she took a sort of different path towards the same career. And so she is in these consistent situations where a hiring manager is asking her these questions. For example, here's a question that she gets is they'll ask her, how many people has she managed on a team? And the last team that she managed was 10 people. But they're really looking for someone who had been previously managing a hundred people. And so she just hits that question, doesn't have the right answer. And then, like you just said, they're looking for some way to filter for candidates. And so they just are like, well, this person isn't right. And so I told her, you can't let them start asking questions that you know you have the wrong answer to and then giving the wrong answer, and then assuming that anything else is going to happen, you have to proactively Tell the story of who you are. So, like, you sit down and the conversation gets going and you say, before we get into this, I just wanted to share. I'm probably a little different than some of the other candidates that you speak to, because the way, as you well know, the way that people tend to be trained in this role is that they do this and this and this. And I actually, earlier on in my career was introduced to this other path by this mentor or whatever and tell the story of how you learned everything that they need and are coming from a different direction. So are going to look a little different, but actually have this great knowledge set that can be additive to them. And she had never thought to do that. So she just kept showing up like a sitting duck and then would get shot. And so if you know that there is some kind of mental discrimination against people who were laid off and you know that that's going to show up and that's going to be something that people are thinking about, then take control of that narrative before it gets defined for you. That is my advice.

[Yowei Shaw]

That's really good advice. I would also add to that that it's really important to not leak negativity in your job interview. That seems straightforward. But it's actually really hard to not leak negativity when you've been laid off.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You mean like crapping on your former employer and that kind of stuff?

[Yowei Shaw]

For sure, don't crap on your former employer. No negative feelings or opinions about your layoff period or justifying it, or no arguing the most positive spin, most neutral positive spin ever. What do I mean by leaking? I mean the vibes you're giving off. That was another thing that the sociologist found was if there's a hint of negativity that they can sniff off of you, you're out. And that's obvious. When you go to a job interview, you want to present yourself as a positive team player. But it's really hard to do that when you're applying for job after job. And maybe you're experiencing hiring discrimination against unemployed people and not getting to the interview phase. And you're also experiencing stigma from friends and family who are wondering, why did she get laid off? Is she looking hard enough? Also from colleagues from the society at large. And so, oh, for Sharon, the sociologist calls it the stigma trap. That's the thing that people who get laid off can fall into and it's really hard to get out of once you're in it. And that's essentially you feeling bad because you got laid off very reasonably and continuing to feel bad and even worse because of hiring discrimination, because of stigma you're experiencing that leads to you showing up to a job interview, leaking negativity, which makes it harder for you to get the job, which then continues the cycle over and over. And so what this tells me is that it's so important to prioritize your mental health during this period. It's really important to think about it as, like a marathon, not a sprint, because you might, like, structurally, you might be having a harder time getting another job because of hiring discrimination. And so it's really important to surround yourself with people who won't blame you for getting laid off, who are going to be supportive. And it's really important to exercise and drink water and not just eat fried chicken and drink Prosecco all day, like I did, because that's the other thing that I found in my research is health outcomes can get worse after you get laid off. And so it's really important to protect your mental health and your physical health as you apply for your next job. And then once you get that next job, then that sort of. That breaks the cycle, and that's all you need.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, it's kind of like when you go on a date and the person is disgruntled and crapping on their ex and really bitter, and they have to do some work. And it sounds like there's a moment you want to hit the ground running, get a new thing, like in some. Probably some days, and other days you want to hide under the covers and watch reruns of RuPaul's Drag Race. And so any sort of depression period, it will ebb and flow. But what was some of the work that you found really valuable that you did on your mental health before going back out there?

[Yowei Shaw]

One of the things I did, which is a little strange, but I highly recommend it, is I tricked out my basement with a massage table and a fern, and I set up shop. I was feeling isolated from friends and family, and so I decided to start this massage project, which I'm calling Yowei Spa. And, yeah, I basically sent a sign.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Up because just to remind everyone your last name is Shaw. Exactly. Yoe Spa.

[Yowei Shaw]

I basically set up a DIY massage parlor in my basement and sent around a signup sheet to friends and family and gave a massage to somebody once a week.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Huh.

[Yowei Shaw]

And that was really healing and beautiful and fun. And then what else did I do? Well, I reported that series and read a lot of books, which I would highly recommend. If you're going through this, I Can share a whole list of books that I think would be helpful to read. I think understanding what has happened to you and understanding the context around your layoff and layoffs in general and the history of layoffs, I think that always helps. That helped me. And then I also did this very strange thing. Another strange thing. I'm realizing there's a pattern here where I decided to make an original layoff song and make a music video of myself pole dancing in a Kleenex box costume. Because that's a totally normal thing to do.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Totally normal. How do you get close enough to the pole when you are in a large Kleenex box?

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, so this took a lot of planning. There was a space for my arms to come out and I made sure to have my arms bare so there's enough surface area to grab. I couldn't do any moves that involved my core. It was really only legs and arms that it could touch the pole. And that was. I mean, it was just so dumb and so fun and funny. And I think it just really helped to reframe this negative thing that I had gone through with something joyful and really stupid and something that I wanted to talk about. Because people would ask me, how are you doing? How's post layoff? And after a while I'd be like, yeah, not great. Still, still sucks, still not feeling good.

[Nicole Lapin]

But let me tell you how to get on a pole with the Kleenex.

[Yowei Shaw]

So I would basically just stop actually answering the question and just talk about this ridiculous music video and send pictures. And then it became this fun thing to talk about. So I highly recommend coming up with some project to stay in close community with your people. Like some kind of ritual maybe that you do with your friends and family to combat the shame and I isolation and then to, I don't know, make some weird art.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That gives me a little bit of a theory which to put a button on this conversation, I'm going to put to you. Because when I'm hearing you set up the massage parlor in your basement with a fake fern and do this weird pole dancing thing, what I'm actually hearing is you looking for ways to take some kind of control of your situation and your life. The challenge of employment as a very concept is that this central thing in your life that is supposed to provide a lot of meaning for a lot of people and is also the central and often only source of income for people is also the thing that people have the least control of in their lives. It is not up to them. And then if they get laid off, then they have to find somebody else who's willing to give it back to them. And it's like a sea of strangers that you have to go around and meet, and it's going to feel like you have to beg for something, and you just don't feel in control of anything, and it sucks. And it's really helpful to be reminded or to remind yourself that you still can create. You still can be in control of things. You can still make things that you enjoy. You can still create joy in your life. Hell, maybe running a magazine called Entrepreneur, maybe you also create things that will bring you the money, and then you don't have to deal with this employment stuff at all. But at the very least, you can create the thing that you talk about at the parties, and you can create the thing that you think about during the day, and you can still build something that maybe is central to this whole emotional experience of being laid off. I don't know. This is maybe the theory to put to you is like, is this really ultimately about control? And when you get laid off, you feel like you have lost control, and the next phase is a journey to regaining that control.

[Yowei Shaw]

However it looks, I think that's a brilliant way to sum up what's going on. I think that part of the reason why I was so shocked when I got laid off is because I had the illusion of control. I think that we all, as humans, want to feel safe, secure, and want to believe that if I work hard, if I perform well, I will be safe. That was my theory of how the world worked up until I got laid off. And then I got laid off, and I realized, you can work as hard as you can, and you can perform as well as anybody else, and you can still lose your job. That's a sobering reality. I think that if I were to get another job at an institution, I really want to take that with me. I really want to remember that I don't have control here. I could be laid off at any day. And there's actually research that suggests that people who don't expect to be laid off get more wrecked when they do. It's a little bit of a bummer to think about, but I think it's better to be real about this reality because I think that can protect you and keep you ready for the next opportunity, for the shoe to drop if it happens.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I don't think that it's a bummer at all. I became editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine in 2016. I thought to myself, this has A shelf life. The shelf life is either because editors in chief eventually get run out of town or because media will collapse and this entire company will cease to exist. Something's going to happen. And so the time is now to figure out, how do I create control? And that anxiety drove me to create all sorts of other sources of revenue for myself, which I have now in multitudes. Speaking, podcasting, books, all that stuff. And none of that would have happened if I just thought, oh, sweet, I got this job and now I can just chill. I think that it's really healthy to have that anxiety. It takes some time to get used to. But once you start to think about it like that, then really what you're doing is you're creating self trust. You are shifting the trust that you have in an institution and you're starting to put it on yourself. And I think that is important because in the future, the only thing that you will have is yourself, not the damn institution. Yoe. One of the things that you've done. Thank you, Nicole. One of the things you've done to take control is start this podcast, Proxy. Before we finish, why don't you tell us about that?

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, Proxy is a show that I'm making independently because I really wanted control, just like you, Jason. I really didn't want to make another show for another institution that I poured all my blood, sweat and tears into. And then even if it's doing well, it can be canned one day. And yeah. Proxy is a show about emotions. We investigate emotional questions and mysteries. We pair guests who have niche emotional conundrums with strangers who have shared experience. We talk to experts. During the layoff series, we paired a laid off couple with a Proxy HR rep to help them process their layoff. We have a new season coming up, and we cover all kinds of emotionally messy topics like estrangement, forgiveness, band therapy. That episode includes the founding drummer of Maroon 5. Yeah.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Awesome.

[Nicole Lapin]

Charis Flowers, right?

[Yowei Shaw]

It's great.

[Nicole Lapin]

Back in the day, was it?

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I didn't know that. This has been so great. Final question, because Nicole won't ask it. Nicole's pregnant. How can she get into that massage parlor?

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, Yowei spa is closed for this season, but it's open for select customers.

[Nicole Lapin]

Can I apply?

[Yowei Shaw]

If you're ever in Philadelphia, let me know and I can make a special appointment for you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

[Nicole Lapin]

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. If you want some Help. Email our [e-mail] for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show and follow us on Instagram @moneynews and TikTok MoneyNews Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[Nicole Lapin]

All right, well, talk to you soon. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guest guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a Co Host Network, which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look look guest friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a Co Host at airbnb.com host.