B (3:14)

Yeah. I think that when somebody is envious of somebody else, they're probably annoyed by their glory. That they want chit chatting I find to be really, really painful. I just have never been great at it. I also don't know what to say that really resonates. Like, she says she struggles to think of something worthwhile to chat about. I do, too. Mondays, inevitably. Even on Zoom chit chat, I'm terrible at it. It's like, how was your weekend? I was like, I am very pregnant. I just laid on the couch. I have zero things to contribute to this conversation. I don't want to be an asshole, but I really don't know what to say. I. And it's not interesting, right?

A (4:01)

It's not. It's raining.

B (4:02)

It's humid. It's humid in New York. It's like. I don't. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. Are we. When did we all become weather people? Why is weather the go to discussion of chit chat?

A (4:16)

Yeah.

B (4:17)

I.

A (4:17)

Because. Safe.

B (4:18)

Yeah. Maybe I need to like, brush up on marine layers and whatever to make it more interesting, but it's really like, wow, it's really raining. Like, you go into a conference. Yeah. It's wet. Yes. My.

A (4:31)

There's nowhere else to go with it, right?

B (4:33)

What, the conversation is over?

A (4:35)

Yeah, the conversation is wet. Do you feel like you would have been more successful Somewhere, or you would have had some different opportunities had you been better at this stuff. That's what this person who asked the question is feeling.

B (4:48)

I don't know, maybe. But also, like, if I was really doing that much interesting shit on the weekends or, like, after work or, like, in the rain, like, then I probably wouldn't have been working as hard. I don't have a lot of fun stories because most of them involve just working when maybe people are not working.

A (5:08)

Right.

B (5:08)

And that's not super fun and interesting and sexy.

A (5:11)

I hear you. I feel similar. I am a total extrovert. What do you think of yourself as? What are you? What are you?

B (5:18)

What do you think of me as?

A (5:19)

The thing that I found is that a lot of people who I think are really interesting and great talkers in the good way, like, you just have a great conversation with them. And that I think of as extroverted, think of themselves as introverted. That just keeps happening over and over again. Like, I keep identifying extroverts who actually think that they're introverts, which means that I don't have any idea what anybody actually thinks of themselves.

B (5:43)

So you think I'm a extrovert?

A (5:47)

Well, yeah, because I've been in rooms with you and you and I can have, like, really fun conversations with people and it's super easy. And I remember connecting with you very easily when we first met. So I just associate all that stuff with, like, extroversion with someone who's just, like, really easy to connect with and can be in a room. You can be in a room with them and it's fun. And I think of introverts is just. It requires more digging. And once you get there, of course, you can make an amazing relationship, but it's harder and it usually sticks in my mind. Oh, yeah. It took a long time to get to know that person. But what I'm actually finding is that a lot of introverts know how to fake extroversion in the right moments, and I cannot pick up the difference at all.

B (6:22)

That's so interesting. Yes, I am a fake extrovert. Introvert.

A (6:27)

Yeah.

B (6:27)

Introverted extrovert. Extroverted introvert.

A (6:29)

I have no idea. But, yeah, that's it.

B (6:31)

I think the difference is that being on or socializing. It's so nice to hear you say that you feel like conversation with me is fun and easy.

A (6:45)

It is indeed. I wouldn't make this podcast otherwise. Jesus, that would be terrible.

B (6:49)

It feels like so much work. When we met, we were at a conference, and I might have Been even hosting that conference. And I totally get why the perception is like, oh, you're hosting, you're doing like stuff on stage or you're talking like extrovert. You like the chit chat. And I find it to be so draining. So what I found the difference to be is that true extroverts get their energy and their power from this type of chit chat, small talk, socializing. Like a friend of mine, Christie, super extrovert, loves the people. Like just is a lady of the people, loves the talking, all the things. And after the talking she is like happy after the talking. I often do like in conferences, I go to the bathroom and I sit on the floor and I like take a moment.

A (7:45)

Really? Wow.

B (7:46)

Yeah. And I breathe and by myself and I just try to decompress. My husband does that too. He's also am fake. Extrovert. Introvert. Introverted. Extrovert. Extrovert. Whatever it is, whatever combination it is. And when he was at a conference recently, I remember him telling me that he also went to the room and just needed a moment. And I find myself doing that all the time at these types of things. Like it does not energize me, it drains me.

A (8:13)

That is an excellent way of describing the difference as an extrovert. Well, the one thing I'll challenge is you said like get energy from, from like small talk, chit chat. I don't really care about that. I get energy from just talking with people and having like really interesting conversations. Like the more the better. And I do not get drained at all. The idea of having to lie down. Like I actually never want to lie down. I just want to keep going. When I'm out at a conference or something, I will talk to people literally all day. And then when everyone's gone, I'm like looking around for more people to talk to. I don't know how to make it stop. But here's what I really related to with that question. And I thought actually quite a lot about this and, and have some kind of like theories on how to make it work for me or for anybody, which is the thing that I connect with is that I'm not really good at like shooting the breeze. And I've never felt like I'm a person who can work a room or people who can enter a room with a bunch of random people and they just have all of these go to mechanisms for engaging people and doing this thing. And I am not that. What I have found is that what I'm really good at is thoughtful interaction that's what I found is if I can get a solid amount of time with somebody, then we can go deep and I can walk away with a good understanding of them and they can walk away with a good understanding of me. We've found some new ideas, and that excites me a lot more than like, working the room. It's been pretty helpful to watch people who can work the room and notice that the things that they're doing aren't actually innate on the fly things, but that they're repeatable tactics that they find that works.

B (9:52)

Oh, like what?

A (9:53)

I was recently speaking at an event in Dubai actually, and then spent a bunch of time with some of the people who run the event and one of the other speakers. We were in a couple different settings together. We were in a car driving to a restaurant. We were at a restaurant with a bunch of people. And then we were at the hotel bar afterwards. And I watched this guy work. Number one, he asks everybody, including like servers or anybody he interacts with, he asks them their name. And I loved that. The first couple times he did it, I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then I realized that he just keeps doing it like it's a thing that he's programmed into himself. And so he's kind of set this way in which he's going to interact with people. And it's going to start by signaling to them that he values them by making sure that he asks them their name. When the waiter came over to serve us, he asked the person their name and then he used their name. And I really liked that. It was like this kind of welcoming gesture. But then he also, he would do these. He had these kind of go to moves to spark interaction. There was a time where we were standing around actually in the hotel lobby after the bar and we ran into to these two other people from the conference. And they work together. And they came over to us because they had seen us both speak and they told us that they work together. And this guy, this other speaker, he says he points to like person A and he's like, what's the best thing about working with person B? And then he goes to person B, he's like, what's the best thing about working with person A? And then they like started talking about working together. And it created all these openings for conversation. And at first I was like, again, at first I thought that is a thing that just popped out of his head. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized, no, that is a thing that he probably does all the time. That's like a go to move. And it's a conversation sparker. And what I really liked about it was that it didn't require him to hold the floor and like chit chat. What it did was it created conversation. And to me, conversations are really just like unfolding openings. You can find something to jump in on, you can find something to follow up on. You need to get people talking because that's the material that you use to generate deeper, more interesting conversation. So you just need to get things going. And what I really liked about what this guy did, I keep anonymizing him, but like, everything I'm saying is complimentary. So anyway, it was a guy's name is Morris Morrison, which is a great name.

B (12:09)

It's a great name.

A (12:10)

Yeah.

B (12:10)

No wonder he asks everybody their name.

A (12:13)

Because he just wants someone to be.

B (12:14)

Like, what's your dad?

A (12:15)

My name is Morris Morrison. It's the best of all names. What I realized is like Morris Morrison. I just want to say his name over again. Morris Morrison is excellent at starting the ball rolling. He's really good once the ball's rolling too. But those are tactics that you can just repeat. Thing number one is that I have found over time that if you just watch the people who are really good at this, you can steal some of their moves. And I've started to do it since I was in Dubai with Morris Morrison. I am now asking people for their names more. It's a really nice gesture and it starts people talking more. I haven't done the like, what do you guys like working? How do you like working together? But I'm totally going to do that like when the opportunity arises because it did start a good conversation. So that's the first thing that I want to share is you can recognize what other people are doing and then you can copy it. And then the second one is just to pick up on the thing that I had said before, which is what I know about myself is I'm really good once things are good, like, I can connect with people. So let me make sure that I'm optimizing for that. Right? Let me just make sure that I'm creating space and I'm finding people who would like to spend a little more time, would like to go a little deeper and because I'm going to say there are some people who can walk into a room and walk out with a hundred names of people and shallow relationships. And I'm actually much better at walking into a room and finding like two or three people and then walking out with like lifelong friends. And I'm just going to keep doing that and I'm going to consider that to be the value add that I have and not worry about not being able to do the other thing. Stick around. Help Wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. What do you make of that?

B (13:57)

I would like to meet Morris Morrison who he probably never just gets his first name said no, how could you? But I tend to do that too. I didn't know that was a tactic. I tend to ask people their names all the time. When I go into whatever room. I try to ask everybody for their names, whether waiters or crews on set. There's a study of some sort that shows that one of the sweetest sounding words to you or something like that is your own name is your own name.

A (14:29)

Right.

B (14:30)

And so I'm not great, especially now with pregnancy brain, like remembering everybody's name. But I do try to use it as much as I can. Back to them. I, I love tactics. I didn't know that that was one of them, but I'm here for it. I like that one. And I don't think you need to make all the friends in a room. I think that going deep on a couple of friends, which has happened to me in different conferences, is a better way to go anyway. And I think not shaming yourself for not making the most amount of people when you know at this point in your life that having a couple is much more valuable in the long run than having a whole bunch of business cards or do people even have business cards anymore? I used to have like reminder of those. Like, you know how they had a baseball card folder? The plastic thing.

A (15:21)

Yeah, like the sleeves.

B (15:22)

Exactly. And then I'd have all the business cards in there. I found that recently and I'm like we definitely don't need this anymore. So. But yeah, I think that that going deep on a couple of relationships and you're great at asking questions. Questions like how do you guys like working with each other? Or what, what's the best part? Or whatever that's, that's totally up your alley.

A (15:41)

I feel like I'm really, really good. Once you're a third of the way in, it's the getting in there that can be a little more that that, that's like not my wheelhouse. So once I have a little bit of information on someone and then I can start to ask some really interesting follow ups and then I'll see how deep they want to Go, then we can get to fun places. It's that starting point where you figure out how to just get people talking that sometimes I don't know how to do. And that's what I really love about the more like what Morris Morrison is doing is it's just those prompts. So it's like having a set of prompts in your head that just get people talking is good. The one that I tend to rely upon a lot is just peppering people with questions. And then so it just. You start basic, but then as. As early as possible start trying to probe for ideas instead of facts. That's. I think that's kind of my move. So it would be what do you do? And they would say whatever. And I would ask a couple follow up basic questions about that. And then once I have some amount of information, I will try to get them to engage on the ideas of something. You know, like, oh, that must be really challenging right now because this is changing and that's changing. How have you been feeling about that? Try to get them off of facts and onto ideas.

B (16:58)

No, that's really interesting. I'm surprised that you ask people what they do out of the gate. I tend to not.

A (17:03)

Is that a New York LA cultural thing? Because in New York everyone's starting question is basically, what do you do?

B (17:09)

I know I had a story of us at an event in one of my books where this was an issue for me.

A (17:16)

Yes, that's right. Because they were like, what was it? Yeah, I remember this moment.

B (17:22)

Where are you from?

A (17:23)

Where are you from? And they met the company and I didn't want to.

B (17:27)

I said la.

A (17:28)

Yeah, because you didn't want to get what they meant.

B (17:32)

Yeah, because everybody was very transactional.

A (17:34)

We were at some kind of happy hour for a financial services firm. Right. So everyone there was in a work capacity.

B (17:40)

Yeah, yeah. And then everybody laughed at me. I didn't get it, but I totally got it. And then they asked again and I said Los Angeles again. And I was just like, I'd rather get to know somebody otherwise. I just get a sense when people start with what do you do? It feels like you're setting the conversation up to be transactional. And if they don't like what you say or that role doesn't fit, whatever they're looking for at that moment, they just go somewhere else. It feels very judgy to me. And so I tend to stay away from that one.

A (18:14)

I think it's fine because it's a safe question. But it also, if you're in A room full of people who care about their work, which isn't every room. But then asking what they do engages on a subject that they care about and sometimes you can find interesting. I mean, I was at a party once and I asked a guy what he does and he invests in. He's a. He runs a venture capital firm that only invests in some weird sideshow in the insurance industry. It was so random. But I started asking him questions about it and he led to all sorts of weird, interesting things and it was in a space that he likes. And so I don't know, I don't have a problem with this. But to bring it back to the Reddit person, I think the reason why it's important to be talking about this kind of stuff and then apply it to this anxiety is that I feel like people worry that there's one way of getting to know people, and if that way isn't comfortable to them, then they just opt out of getting to know people at all. And then they worry that is going to impact their career. And let us be clear, the answer is probably yes. It actually probably will hurt your career because like, careers are built in many ways on relationships. And that could be internal, right? Like somebody, they. People like you and then somebody gets promoted and then they like bring you into new opportunities. But it could also be, it could be external, it could be that they want to bring you onto their company or they want to start some thing with you or something like relationships really do matter. And so here's this person who clearly doesn't feel good at chit chat is watching this associate who is really good at chit chat and then is feeling very excluded. But there's so much happening in that scenario that this person on Reddit is not aware of. So first of all, they don't know if everyone in this office only wants to engage in this chit chatty way. They may not. Right? They may not. They actually may just be tolerating this associate who's really chit chatty. And also they don't seem to be identifying the strengths that they might have in being able to connect with everyone. Like everyone's able to connect in some way. And the more in which you can think of that, the more in which you can start to try to optimize for it. I'm not seeing an effort in that question to find the other ways to connect with colleagues or to identify the colleagues that can make the meaningful connections. You know, I've worked at jobs where I didn't get to know everybody. But I got to know two or three people really, really well and then they became friends. And if you want to think about it in terms of careers, valuable assets going forward. And that was because I used my strengths with them.

B (21:01)

Oftentimes I hear people use the tactic of like, what are you excited about right now? Which is like kind of a euphemism or another way to say what do you do? A cringy question to me, but that's just because I've heard it a lot. And it's like another way of asking what do you do? But there are other ways of asking the same things that could work for you for sure. There's also a fine line between the depth that you want to get into and how quickly you want to get there. And I really like your. I guess it would be a funnel.

A (21:32)

Like it would be a funnel. It's true. It is a. It is a kind of marketing funnel which is. I'm starting very broad socializing funnel. What do you do? Or what something. And then we're going to get a little deeper and then I'm going to see where they go. I'm trying to see where they want to go and how open they are and how much you connect with or click with or can think enough like them to have a sustainable conversation, which can't. With everybody.

B (21:56)

Totally. And we had, you know, John Levy, right. We had John Levy on the. On Money Rehab. And he was talking about some of these because that's his whole shtick. And he, he's like, we should.

A (22:07)

We should define. Yeah, John Le. So John Levy. John Levy started many, many years ago just hosting a regular dinner party at his house for basically whatever impressive people he could get to show up at his house. He called it. It's a terrible name. I think he is very aware of it. The Influencer Dinner. And now he's built this out into a whole business where he is now calls himself a social scientist or something, but he really has come to understand the art of connecting with people and bring.

B (22:35)

Yeah, for sure. And he came on the show and talked about some of the questions that you could ask if you're trying to get to know somebody. And I remember thinking, I don't know exactly what the questions were, but what is your childhood trauma?

A (22:51)

Oh my God.

B (22:52)

Where you just get really deep really quickly. And maybe that's like a scarecrow where the people that you really want to connect with in that way will answer ones that won't. Will walk away. I wouldn't go in that hot?

A (23:05)

No, I would not go in that hot either. That's. That, that is not a. It's also not fair if somebody has like serious childhood trauma that they're carrying around. But, but, yeah, but what scares you.

B (23:15)

Or like some, some stuff is just too much. Like, I think there's a balance, right, between the weather and childhood trauma.

A (23:22)

Yes.

B (23:23)

There has to be a middle ground. The, the way that I've found the middle ground, I, I think and Morgan just reminded me of this before we started recording was this woman who I've known for a long time, Lavinia Erico, co founder of Equinox. I did a panel with her. She's become a really good friend and she reminded me when she recently also came home nanny rehab. About the first time we met, which I totally forgot. I came in at 8 o'clock in the morning and I was just like, wow, it's so early for Spanx or some like crazy shit that came out of my mouth. I just, I found my middle ground by coming up with really outrageous stuff like my Spanx or like kind of embarrassing thing. But let me go first and I'll, I'll talk about my Spanx if you.

A (24:07)

Want to talk about your school.

B (24:08)

If not, whatever. I'm going to take it for the team. And so the people that resonate with that might be my people and the ones who don't are not.

A (24:17)

Yeah, I think that's great. It's also useful to think about settings. As we've been talking about this, I feel like I've said some contradictory sounding things about myself. Right. Like I've said that I'm good at asking questions and getting to know people. It's true. And I'm completely comfortable walking up to a total stranger and starting a conversation. But then I'm also like studying Morris Morrison because he's better at these things than me. And so it's like, what is it? And I realized that it's not actually about the function of the interaction, it's about the setting. What I never really learned how to do was be really good in a shallow, fast paced setting. So like at a party where there's lots of people and everyone's almost in some kind of group and nobody's having a long, serious conversation, everyone's having little bursts of fun conversation. I'm not good at that. That is definitely not my area. I am better with the group of people who want to stick together for a little bit longer and have a more developed conversation. And at first I thought much like the person in the Reddit thread, I thought, I guess this just isn't for me. But I actually don't think that's true. I think that you have to just think of every setting as a collection of micro settings and there probably is some space within that larger setting or some people within the larger setting, or some moments within that larger setting where you can do the thing that you're really good at or you can connect with people in the way that you really can connect. And it is worth looking for that instead of thinking about why you do not fit in, it's worth looking at where are the moments where you can connect and fit in. Because the thing that I want to learn from Morris Morrison is in these, like, incredibly casual, fast, surface level moments. He's really good at just like, anchoring people and getting things moving. That's where I'm maybe not the best, but it's not for lack of comfort. It's almost just because, like, I didn't know what to say. And so it's interesting. It's useful to just hear people say things so that you can copy them and then see if you can create that little space that you're actually more comfortable in yourself.

B (26:15)

Or you can say, I don't really know what to say.

A (26:18)

Also that people will relate to that because they don't know what to say either.

B (26:22)

I'm tired of talking about the weather. I don't really know what to say. This is so weird.

A (26:27)

My go to move. If I'm at an event by myself and I don't have anyone to talk to, I will look around for someone who is not talking to someone and then I will approach them and I'll say something like, so you don't seem to know anyone here either, huh? Let us acknowledge that we are both alone.

B (26:40)

This is all weird and awkward.

A (26:41)

Yeah, yeah.

B (26:43)

Awkward in me sees the awkward in you.

A (26:45)

Yes, awkward in me sees, which is great. People totally relate to that. And if I can't find that one person, then I'll try to find two or three people who don't look like they're in some deep, intimate conversation. And I will come and join them. And my intro will be something like the last table that I was at, everyone walked away. So I'm wandering around and here I am. You know, look, because everyone's doing the same thing, right? Like, we often think that we're outside of something. We're not that special club, but we're not. Like, everyone's doing the exact same thing.

B (27:14)

It's true. It's a good tactic. I think self deprecation or like pointing out the weird awkwardness is generally a good move. I found that the older I get, the worse at this I am.

A (27:26)

Oh, that's interesting. Have you found that the older I get, the less time I want to spend with people who I don't think I will have long term relationships with? Like I used to be totally happy going to a party and spending the entire night chit chatting with people that I would never see again in my life. And now that I'm older, I have tolerance. I have less. Well, it's not, it's not even tolerance. It's time. I have less time for being out and socializing. And so I would rather either be with people who I already have relationships with or be in settings that might foster useful relationships. Sometimes those are professional and sometimes those are personal. You know, like Ned down the street from me has started a monthly poker night for like guys in the neighborhood. And I like that. I like it because I go and I meet some guys in the neighborhood and maybe some of them I'll become friends with and even the ones I don't I'll probably run into on the street. And so it feels like it's like additive. It's a contributing to some longer term value. And I would rather do that than go to some like mixer sponsored by some company and just talk to a bunch of random people who I definitely won't see again. That's been what changes.

B (28:41)

That's interesting because I think that's. As I've gotten older too, I've wanted to hang out with the Neds of the world more than the mixers. And I've actually realized that the Neds of the world have helped. If we're looking at this truly from what's going to help in business and this is how we started. How is this woman going to advance in business when she can't like chit chat or talk about the game this weekend or the whatever people are talking about. So I've found that the people that have helped me most in my career are the ones that I have actual real relationships with.

A (29:18)

Yeah.

B (29:19)

And not the ones that I meet out in the world. And that who knows, Ned could know her boss. And that could actually help more than whoever at the water cooler. They're still water coolers or whatever, break room or wherever these people are chit chatting. So maybe creating real depth and relationship and follow up. Because it's one thing to meet people and have that be a moment of awkward discussions about the humidity and it never goes anywhere. And that doesn't help anyone. It's like being a professional meeting taker is not real work. It's the. What do you do after? What's the follow up? What's the follow through? What I've realized over the years is that the people that I've developed real relationships with, if I bring them a work problem, it always surprises me that they, like, know a person that I'm talking about or knows a person of a person or know an interesting resource or know something about that that I had no idea about because we were like Ned, playing cards or.

A (30:22)

Yeah, yeah.

B (30:23)

Or doing something normal or not in this sort of artificial chicken dinner networking situation that oftentimes if you. Even if you do meet people there and you don't follow through and you don't continue that relationship, it doesn't help.

A (30:39)

Anyway, I have some homework for the person on Reddit, and that is this. I was thinking about how this person is not interacting enough with their colleagues. So here's my challenge to that person and to anyone who feels like they're having a hard time getting to know people is can you add one extra thing to that interaction? Just add one extra thing to that interaction. So instead of going over and just like asking for the thing and then getting it and then leaving, ask for the thing and then see something on their desk and ask about that. Like, oh, you like the whatever. Or, oh, where'd that come from? That's really cool. Or just something and that could be it. You don't have to then stick around for an hour. But I think that if you use the openings that already exist and then try to expand them just a little bit, you will, over time create the space for real connection. And it will happen at whatever pace you are more comfortable with, and it will reveal the people who you could have connection with. And that will possibly get you even better relationships than that chatty person that you are annoyed and envious of. What do you think?

B (31:49)

Yeah, or maybe the chatty person that you're annoyed and envious of has a picture on their desk about soccer or the Grand Tetons or. I don't. Whatever they're doing.

A (32:00)

Whatever. Whatever they're doing. Maybe chatting with them.

B (32:03)

Soccer too. And maybe you can. Yeah. Move the course if that specific course is not right for you. I'm just imagining they're in some sort of break room while they're having chats and she's feeling left out. Like, just move the course. Maybe it's like somewhere else that she feels more comfortable.

A (32:22)

The other thing you could do is you could just rename yourself Morris Morrison and then everyone's going to want to talk to you. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

B (32:37)

Pfeiffer and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline at help wanted@moneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram @moneynews and TikTok MoneyNews Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

A (32:58)

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

B (32:59)

All right, well, talk to you soon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.