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- [00:00]
A
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B
Over the years I've spent a lot of time thinking about what it takes to build a great business and my personal area of expertise is in being really forward facing about being out there, about being the personal brand and being the person who can grab the attention and pull people in. But you know what? That's just the most visible part of business. There's also the equally important but very invisible work like legal paperwork and website security and state license. Your business deserves the best foundation possible. So to get more for your business, more privacy, more tools, more guidance you need. Northwest Registered Agent Northwest Registered Agent has been helping entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US with over 1500 corporate guides. These are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. For for example, protect your identity and keep your home address private by using Northwest's address on your state's formation documents. With Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data and all services are handled in house because privacy by default is their pledge to all entrepreneurs. Don't wait, protect your privacy, build your brand and get your complete business Identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit www.northwestregisteredaagent.com paid help wanted and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest registered agent@www.northwestregisteredagent.com paid help wanted. This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.
- [03:38]
A
Entrepreneur Mag, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.
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B
And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.
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A
And it starts now.
- [03:55]
C
Main question Nicole and Jason is I work in it. I'm a program manager and joining this group, I was extremely excited. It's probably something I've had my eye on for probably the last six, seven years. Opportunity came about, I reached out and went through the entire process, landed the job and was extremely excited. And then probably about six to nine months after I joined the team, I kind of realized there were a lot of changes at the top. Management was changing sort of right as I changed in. And so when management changed, their focus changed and so they're like, okay, the team is going to operate differently. Like we used to be able to kind of go in and be 100% dedicated, focused on the customer. The customer needs at the end of the day are what mattered. And this may sound entirely terrible given where I work, but when management changed, all of a sudden the greater priority was put on profit. Sounds bad, but it became more about the company rather than the customer.
- [05:10]
B
Well, Kevin, welcome to Help Wanted. Thanks for bringing that very valuable question. Kevin, let me state it back to you. You told us the thing that drives you, the thing that you feel like is central to your purpose and work, which is to help people. You like working directly with people and helping them and you are happy to work in a corporate environment where you feel like you can be A helpful force for the people who are using whatever your product or service. And now you feel like when you show up every day, the organization sees you not as a force for helping people, but rather as a force for making money for the company, which, let's be honest, is a thing that everybody functionally has to be doing. Because what else is the point of a company if not to provide something that people want, but also to make money so that the company survives? But you want to see in your purpose helping people, not I'm just showing up to make money for this company because that's not very fun. And that's what you're feeling right now is that you're being treated as an engine for making money, not as an engine for helping people. Is that right?
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C
More or less, yeah. It's a good way to put it.
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A
You feel like this was a little bait and switch?
- [06:21]
C
A little bit, yeah.
- [06:23]
A
And so when that happened, you started to feel, what? Less. Less interested in what you were doing? Less enthused by the team, A little burnt out, Stressed, Anxious? Tell me more.
- [06:39]
C
Yeah, I think you kind of hit all that. Stress is not something that really ever enters into my vocabulary. I kind of enjoy that part.
- [06:47]
A
Lucky.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:49]
C
People hate me for it, but whatever happens, happens. We'll figure it out and we'll go forward. But when all this stuff started changing and Nicole, to your point, that stress. I found myself feeling stressed at work when I hadn't before.
- [07:05]
A
And would you say that there were some metrics imposed or like some KPIs, key performance indicators that were bestowed upon you and the team that you felt were cumbersome or unrealistic?
- [07:21]
C
I don't think at this point we've seen those, but the things that they have had us start doing, start reporting on, it's trending that way. I think we can all see it coming. That there's going to be almost like a time card driven sort of mindset, right? Like breaking down almost to the hour. Like, where did you spend your time this week rather than did your customers end goal get met? Yes. Cool. We're good.
- [07:47]
B
Yeah. That sounds exhausting. A framework that I like to use as just a starting point for whether or not to continue to do something is to think about whether or not something is a toll or a scam. Here's what I mean by that. To go anywhere, to do anything that you want to do, there is some cost to that, some cost in terms of energy and time or money or whatever the case is. So you think about if you drive down the highway to see some friends. You may have to pay a toll along the highway, but that's okay because you're paying money for ultimately something that you want, which is to go see your friends. It's the toll that you must pay. And all work, even good work, has tolls. Every day at Entrepreneur magazine, where I'm editor in chief, there are things that I have to do that I have no interest in doing. I am totally bored by these things, but they are the toll that I am willing to pay in order to get to the things that I do enjoy doing. The distinction is whether or not something is a toll, which is paying something to get somewhere you want to go, and a scam, which is to spend for nothing. A scam is when you spend time, energy, resources, and you get nothing in return. And I think that sometimes jobs can start as there's a toll that's worth paying, and then it turns into a scam where you're paying and you're not getting any value. And it's worth evaluating. Is the ratio of toll to benefit high enough or strong enough? Am I spending enough for the toll in order to do the thing that I actually want to do? You're describing a time earlier in your career at this company where the toll sounds like it was lower. I'm sure there was stuff that you didn't want to do, but there was enough stuff that you did want to do that it was worth paying the toll. Now you're describing a higher toll. And before we get into solutions and talking about different ways to think about it, I just want to hear from you about how large that toll is relative to the value that you're still getting. How much of your time every day is spent paying the toll?
- [09:53]
C
If I had to quantify it, I would probably say the environment that we find ourselves in now, maybe 40%, okay, 30, 40% of the day. So it's not terrible. I guess you put it in terms like that.
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A
And what are we dealing with? Are you thinking about leaving, or are we really lifers here and we just need to figure out how to make it work?
- [10:16]
C
I think I'm more the latter. I mean, I've been at this place for 18 years now. 18 years sounds like a long time to be at any one place. And so I've been kind of in this current program management role, if you will, for probably the last 10 or 11 years. And I love the work that I do. I love the customers that I support and everything. It's just some of These nuanced changes now, I think are having me kind of not really second guess, but to your point, I don't necessarily find the same reward and value that I did a few years prior. But, Nicole, to your question, I think it's more kind of a how do I make this work? Because at least today I'm not at a point where it's gotten so burdensome that I have thought of leaving.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah, okay, that's really helpful.
- [11:04]
B
18 years is a long time, and if you're otherwise happy there and you're not looking to make that major change, then I think it's worth focusing our conversation on what you could possibly do to stay there and be happier.
- [11:15]
A
Yeah, because we have the answer. So we're basically just solving for X. What is this other factor we need in the equation? We already know that we're going to stay there and having a purpose or having a why. Studies have long shown in business at all levels is the thing that leads to happiness, longevity, satisfaction, all of the warm, fuzzy, delightful things that can come from work. But the why is really up to you. And reframing that role is never going to come from anybody else but you. Actually, I think it was in my third book that I talked about a study done with hospital janitors who reframe their role as ambassadors for health. Like, they loved their job. And some people might look at that and be like, that is literally a shitty job, or you're cleaning up shit and barf and it's vile. But they looked at it as contributing to a larger goal for people's health and wellness, and they felt like they were ambassadors for that. And so that created a stronger why for them. It created more motivation, and it was the exact same job. So having the same job and feeling like it's far from your dream job, the X here is really in your control. How we take the very same job and make it your dream job. I actually did this myself. You know, I hated finance. I really wanted to be a writer. I became a writer. Just not the kind I expected. And so I went from hating my job and being felt like I was forced to report on rich people getting richer and I wasn't contributing to society or helping to make a difference or the rest of it. Two, I am helping to tell the first draft of history, which has to do with economics and money drives every story, and helping people with their money empowers them and the rest of it. And so I created my own story, but I had the exact same set of circumstances. So if we have the exact same set of circumstances. What could the story be? How could we retell this story?
- [13:25]
B
Here's a starting point for you. Can you tell me what you do in a short sentence in which you don't use any of the words that anchor yourself to any of the tasks that you actually perform or the role that you occupy? It sounds really abstract. Let me make it specific. I'm a magazine editor. I don't like that as a description for myself. You know why? Because it's so easily changeable. My boss could call me literally right now, and he could fire me, and then I'm not a magazine editor. So it's a kind of terrible way to frame myself. I came up with this sentence for myself, My version of health ambassador with the janitors, which is I tell stories in my own voice. I love that description because it highlights the two things that matter to me. I feel like my primary skill set is storytelling, and I feel like I'm at a stage in my career where I want to do it in my own voice, not be subsumed into some other organization. I work for an organization, but I'm a leader of a voice at that organization, and that matters to me. And when I ask executives and senior executives to do that for themselves, Come up with some mission statement, a why statement, where every word is carefully selected because it's not anchored to something that's easily changeable. They start telling me things like, I solve very complex problems. I help teams achieve greatness. And the really useful thing about this, and the reason why I highlight not anchored to something easily changeable is it allows you to remain oriented towards the thing that you see as a core value and a core value that you have for others that can be articulated regardless of what changes. So if I tell stories in my own voice, it doesn't really matter if I'm at a magazine or not. All my work could change, and I could still find ways to do that. Every change is now just an opportunity to once again articulate and do the thing that's core to me. And also think about how well a reframing like that opens up new opportunities for you that you might not have seen. You think about the healthcare ambassadors. If I was a janitor at a hospital and I just understood my job as clean the hospital, then I'm pretty laser focused on just cleaning the hospital. It's a pretty limited set. Healthcare ambassador enables me to interact with other people and find joy in making their jobs better if they're my colleagues or making their time at the hospital better if they're the patients. And it gives me the opportunity to just be a joyful presence. Because I bet if you're a janitor at a hospital, you're interacting with a lot of people. In fact, you might be the most stable thing happening in that hospital. For some people, crazy things are happening. If you're at a hospital, doctors are coming in and out, everyone's on a new shift. Things are being changed all the time. You don't know what's happening. But the person who comes in and cleans your room every day, they're nice, they're friendly, they're stable. You know what they do. They're never going to show up and tell you bad news. It's actually a pretty useful person. And if you are thinking of yourself as in that position to be useful, then suddenly you're like, engaging with the patients. You're enjoying yourself more, you're seeing a greater purpose. So I'm curious what you would say for yourself.
- [16:51]
C
To try and boil it down, I ensure a continuity of service that provides a very specific and dedicated capability to a specialized set of customers.
- [17:05]
B
I'm going to boil it down even further. I'm a stable force for people. Yeah.
- [17:09]
C
Yeah, okay. I can get that.
- [17:11]
B
Have you gone to your manager and said, you know, been here 18 years. I really love our customers and I really love interacting with them and I get to do that still. But these changes make me feel like I'm a little more distant from them. And the thing that I really, really love, are there any opportunities to shift what I do or evolve my work in a way that gets me closer to the customer who I really love and want to support and be a stable force for?
- [17:42]
C
Yeah, I haven't. I have tried, and this is probably a horrible detriment. So don't.
- [17:48]
B
No judgment here, don't poke fun at.
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C
Me, but I have probably limited my career growth specific to me because I've wanted to remain directly related and engaged with the customers. So I think I have passed up on certain opportunities to stay there. So I felt like I have done that myself, But I've not had that discussion. Specific to your question with my manager. So I think it would be an appropriate time. Like I said, I mean, I've been on this new team in this new group for about two years. I've had this new manager for about a year. He is new to the company himself, so he is trying to figure things out. And so sometimes it's a bit of a struggle. But like you said, after a Few years, it's probably time to have those conversations.
- [18:34]
B
I bet I know what Nicole's thinking. I'm going to start it, and then Nicole pick up on it. So, Kevin, I'm not going to make fun of you at all for not doing that. You identified something that you love, and I think stability sounds like something that you really value. You stayed at the same company for 18 years. There's nothing wrong with that. The most important thing people can do is make intentional decisions about their work. I think that you've made those. The downside to that is that you've trained your company. Kevin will do whatever, and that's a signal that you've sent. That's the thing that he needs to fix. You can stay wherever you want, Kevin, but you got to make sure that you're sending the right signals.
- [19:04]
A
Yeah. And not everything that we're gonna do at work is going to be a joy and delight. There are going to be tolls. There's not a job that gives you money that does not take a toll. And not everything you do at work is going to fulfill your why and your purpose on this planet and your passion. And Jason and I have had conversations on this show with people who we've said, hey, you know what? You can find passion somewhere else. Like, you really have to optimize for money at work. That's the only place that you can get money. Unless you're doing something sketchy, nefarious, illegal. You look like a upstanding guy, Kevin. You have to optimize for money because that's where you're going to get it at work. And so not everything has to be in line with your why and your purpose. Some things are just shitty and you have to get it done. But I think that for you, you've identified that not only are you a stable force for others, but this job, it sounds like, has been a stable force for you is also really important.
- [20:09]
C
I would agree with that 100%.
- [20:12]
B
Stick around. Help Wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. You want to create stability, and you want to be in a stable situation, which is a great thing to recognize. I was thinking at the very beginning, as you were describing the changes that have taken place and how you've felt about them, that there may be a failure of leadership here at the company. And the failure of leadership is that whenever you're guiding people through a change, you have to know that the very first thing that they're thinking is, how does this impact Me, do I still have a role here? Am I still valuable here? And therefore you have to be communicating to them why this change is taking place and how it's advantageous to them. If you're not doing that, if you're a leader, you're just sowing doubt and confusion among your team. And it sounds like there may not have been a level of communication to you about exactly how these changes will benefit you and will benefit the things that you care about. That's what I was thinking at the beginning. But I will tell you, because you told us that you've been in the same place for a long time and that you are not having conversations with your manager, I think it is also entirely possible that the company just doesn't think you need that leadership and that by stepping up and saying, I am a stable force here, but I also want to make sure I'm a stable, optimized force that were putting me in the right role in the right moment to do the right thing for the company and for our customers. I mean, look, what company doesn't want someone to say that? To say, been here 18 years, I love it. I love our customers and I am loyal to this company. I want to make sure that I'm as useful to all parts of that as possible. And I'd like to have a conversation about that. You have a new manager, the manager is going to not have ultimate power and is going to need to talk to their boss and their boss's boss and all the God awful chains of corporate management. But I think that's a domino effect. You need to start, otherwise you'll just sit right where you are.
- [22:22]
C
Looking back on 18 years, that's probably been one of my biggest hindrances, if you will, is just not even starting those conversations. I have been too lackadaisical with my own career growth and stuff. And now, like I said, the last few years and last few opportunities I've chosen not to take because I found a good niche where I like to be. But to your point, by not forcing it, then it's never going to come up. The door only opens so many times.
- [22:54]
B
Nicole, if you have an employee who over the course of 18 years has said almost nothing about their desires or further ambitions or whatever, what do you think about that person?
- [23:06]
A
I think you got to get a little more stress in your life.
- [23:10]
B
It's true, you're not stressed enough.
- [23:12]
A
You're just so chill.
- [23:14]
B
Yeah. The answer I would have given to that question is, I guess the opposite of what Nicole just said. It is. They're perfectly happy doing what they're currently doing. There's no problem there. If I have an employee for 18 years, hasn't spoken up. All good there. Don't have to worry about that. Let me go worry about some other people, make sure I make them happy. That guy, he's good?
- [23:33]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, that brings up something I wanted to say about empathy. Oftentimes we can frame our bosses and our bosses bosses and like corporate America as greedy and. And money and like all of these mean, gross things. And behind that is just people. People who are just trying to feed their families, get shit done, and ultimately run a business because it's a business and not a nonprofit. So you have to make money. So, like, I wonder if you can approach some of those people with some empathy and say, like, hey, they're stressed out. They're trying to do right. They're ultimately trying to make this company successful so that we can help people. If we don't have a company, we can't help people. We can't help them communicate. We can't help them do anything. We can't help ourselves. And so sometimes realizing that the ends justify the means can soften your view of how to approach these people or soften the reasons that you feel like this negative force is coming your way. And maybe there's an empathy that can come to those conversations if you choose to have them. And I was half joking about the stress, but studies have actually been done that we have to have some sort of good stress at work in order to be successful. There's toxic stress for sure, and I live it right now. And so we used to have a different word for good stress. It was called eustress. Eu. Like you euphoria. Right. Like the EU prefix is good. So good stress and bad stress is distress. And so you don't want your favorite. Jason, who's your favorite basketball player?
- [25:11]
B
Dwyane Wade.
- [25:11]
A
Great. Dwayne Wade on the court. Chill as fuck. You don't want that.
- [25:15]
C
Right.
- [25:15]
A
You need some stress for these players on the field. Right. Some of that stress is good. Sometimes these emotions are two sides of the same coin. Excitement and nervousness. We think of nervousness as being bad and excitement as being good. But sometimes the stress at work motivates you to get whatever accomplished or reach your why and all these other sort of positive things. So I would just offer that as a suggestion when you're looking at having these conversations, maybe approach the people that are getting these directives with some empathy and understand that you all are kind of working toward this why, while your whats are similar and have become more annoying, your whys are the same. And also you're all people dealing with stuff. And I think having some level of kindness for those and everybody fighting their own battle and all of those sort of like Instagram meme platitudes and also, you know, half tongue in cheek and half truth. Think about your relationship with stress at work. It doesn't all have to be bad.
- [26:25]
C
That makes sense. I'm just feeding in energy, I guess.
- [26:28]
B
Are we stressing you out?
- [26:29]
C
Not at all. Sorry. I don't know if it's a bad habit or a good habit, but it just kind of rolls. I just go with the flow. Which I think, to your point, Jason, if he's just kind of going with the flow for 18 years, then let's not worry about him because he rolls along with it.
- [26:47]
B
Yeah. I mean, if you go with the flow, then you go wherever the river's taking you, and it sounds like it's largely fine for you, and that's fine. Kevin, I think the major takeaway I hope you have from this conversation is that you don't have to change much, but what you do want to do is identify the moments where you want to create some change and take some control over those. And to make a little change doesn't mean making a big change. It sounds like you don't want to leave the company and you don't want to change your career drastically, but you'd like a little some shift in what you're doing or how you're doing it. You'd like some say in things, and you deserve that. After 18 years, if you deserve anything, it's that.
- [27:35]
A
And some of that's going to come from you, and some of that's going to come from them. And some of it's going to be a combination of those conversations that you're going to have with them.
- [27:42]
B
You.
- [27:42]
A
You alluded to this idea that you haven't worked up, right? Not all the doors open all the time. Is there some regret for the past 18 years? Is there something that you would like to have different? Is there another role or money or title that you want that you're feeling?
- [28:00]
C
I don't believe so. Look back on those things. I mean, I may have made the conscious decisions because over the years, I've seen the people who have taken those paths or made those choices, and it's gotten them so far removed from why they joined, what they got into, what they loved about it. Some People after a couple years in that have left the company and have gone on and completely switched fields. So I think some of it, maybe there's a little bit of fear in there that if I make too much of a change, then I won't enjoy it and then I'll find myself wanting to leave the company, which I don't want to do. And at the same time, there's part of it that is wholly invested in the mission or the goals of the customers that I've kind of internalized it, especially after 15 plus years, 18 years going into it now. Right. That I've internalized, I think, what these customers do and what they're about. And so it's kind of become a major part of me. And so that I think to your point, there might be a little bit of fear in trying to maybe step too far outside of what I've done or how I do it or even approach those conversations because I'm worried about what it may lead to that could be.
- [29:24]
B
I don't know, man. I mean, Nicole and I have had a lot of conversations on this show and just personally about the curse of ambition and how it means that you never are satisfied. You're always looking for more. You get something, you immediately start looking for the next thing. You've taken a different path and there's nothing to be regretful for that. It sounds like it's afforded you a happy life with what you want and some course corrections can come along the way, but it's kind of a you do you situation. And I would say, Kevin, if you ever do leave this company, the business you should be in is just having people come and hang out with you and be less stressed because people would pay a lot of money for that. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.
- [30:16]
A
Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapvin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@helpwantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show and follow us on Instagramoney News and TikTok MoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance.
- [30:36]
B
Oh, I didn't sign up for that.
- [30:37]
A
All right, well, talk to you soon.
- [30:55]
C
Sat.