"My Manager Doesn't Understand Me... Help!"

Summary

Help Wanted: "My Manager Doesn't Understand Me... Help!" Episode Summary

Release Date: March 4, 2025
Host: Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur
Guest: Jenny Wood, Former Google Employee and Author of "Wild Courage: Go After What You Want and Get It"

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Help Wanted, hosts Jason Pfeiffer and Jenny Wood delve into the challenging dynamics between employees and their managers. The focus is on understanding and bridging communication gaps, especially when a manager fails to appreciate an employee's work style or expertise.

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Guest Background: Jenny Wood

Jenny Wood shares her extensive experience of nearly two decades at Google, where she held significant roles, including leading corporate career programs that benefited thousands globally. Her insights as an author provide a foundational perspective on navigating corporate relationships and career growth.

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Mike's Dilemma: An Experienced Engineer Struggles with a New Manager

Mike, an engineer with over 40 years of experience, reaches out for help regarding his strained relationship with his younger, less experienced manager. After a departmental overhaul post-COVID, Mike finds himself in a senior position surrounded by managers half his age.

Key Points from Mike's Story:

• Accusatory Feedback: Mike recounts a humiliating moment where his manager questioned his understanding of models, saying, “Jenny, do you even know how models work?” (03:32) This left him feeling like a "deer in headlights" and emotionally distressed.

• Consistency vs. Adaptation: Despite his consistent work ethic, Mike feels underappreciated and misunderstood. His detailed-oriented approach, while valued by upper management, clashes with his manager's expectations for speed and brevity.

• Emotional Toll: Mike admits, “I get emotional and I sometimes stumble on my words and I try to recover. And then I go home and I fume and just stew over it…” (05:21) This emotional strain affects his overall job satisfaction and productivity.

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Hosts’ Analysis: Understanding the Root Causes

Jason and Jenny dissect the possible reasons behind the manager's feedback and Mike's reactions.

1. Communication Styles:

   • Generational Differences: Younger managers may prefer concise communication, whereas seasoned employees like Mike are more detail-oriented.
   • Feedback Delivery: There might be a lack of understanding in how feedback is conveyed, leading to feelings of being undervalued.

2. Managerial Pressures:

   • Unseen Pressures: Jenny suggests considering what pressures the manager might be facing from higher-ups, which could explain his push for speed over detail.
   • Shared Goals: Both Mike and his manager aim for project success, but their approaches differ.

Notable Quote:

“The more you can almost ... build influence through empathy and craft real, meaningful relationships.” — Jenny Wood (16:22)

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Strategic Communication: Techniques to Bridge the Gap

Jenny Wood introduces the SAFE Feedback framework, which stands for Situation, Action, Feeling, and Effect. This approach encourages constructive and empathetic communication.

1. Situation: Define the context in which the feedback is given.
2. Action: Describe the specific behaviors observed.
3. Feeling: Express how these actions impact you emotionally.
4. Effect: Explain the broader implications of these actions.

Example Implementation: Mike can approach his manager with questions like:

• “What could I do that would make this better in your eyes?”
• “Can you provide specific examples of where you felt my work was too detailed?” (14:56)

Notable Quote:

“Ask what and how questions. ... What could I do that would make this better in your eyes?” — Jenny Wood (23:28)

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Building Empathy and Influence Through Intentional Relationships

Manipulative vs. Strategic Influence: Jenny redefines manipulation as the art of building influence through empathy and authentic relationships, not deceit. She emphasizes the importance of being a net positive energy contributor to foster a supportive work environment.

Practical Steps:

• Acknowledge Positives: Complimenting the manager on his contributions can open doors for better communication.
• Show Commitment to Growth: Demonstrating a willingness to adapt and improve based on feedback showcases a growth mindset.

Notable Quote:

“Being a net positive energy contributor ... is one of the best things you can do.” — Jenny Wood (28:36)

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Actionable Advice: Initiating the Hard Conversation

Jason and Jenny encourage Mike to take proactive steps to resolve the tension:

1. Choose the Right Moment: Initiate the conversation when both parties are calm to minimize emotional reactions.
2. Set Clear Objectives: Communicate the desire to understand each other better and align on work expectations.
3. Use the SAFE Framework: Structure the conversation to be constructive and empathetic.

Sample Approach: Mike could email his manager requesting a dedicated time to discuss their working relationship, including specific questions to guide the conversation.

Notable Quote:

“No matter what, ... you're going to walk away feeling brave. And that in and of itself is a win.” — Jenny Wood (32:20)

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Mike's Reflection and Commitment

Mike acknowledges the value of the advice provided and expresses a determination to implement the suggested strategies. He recognizes the need to open a dialogue with his manager to alleviate the ongoing tension and improve his work environment.

Notable Quote:

“I think that sounds very good.” — Mike (43:47)

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Conclusion: Moving Forward with Confidence

The episode concludes with the hosts reiterating the importance of addressing workplace conflicts proactively. By understanding underlying motivations, adjusting communication styles, and fostering empathy, employees can navigate complex managerial relationships effectively.

Final Thought:

“You need to go after what you want and get it by having that hard conversation with your manager.” — Jenny Wood (44:08)

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Key Takeaways

• Proactive Communication: Initiating open and empathetic conversations can resolve misunderstandings.
• Understanding Different Styles: Recognizing and adapting to different communication preferences enhances workplace harmony.
• Constructive Feedback: Utilizing frameworks like SAFE can make feedback sessions more effective and less confrontational.
• Building Relationships: Strategic influence through empathy fosters stronger professional relationships.

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For personalized advice on overcoming workplace challenges, consider reaching out to Help Wanted at [e-mail] or follow them on Instagram and TikTok @moneynewsnetwork for more insights and content.

Transcript

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

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[NerdWallet Speaker]

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[Jenny Wood]

I think it's good.

[NerdWallet Speaker]

I think it's in the seven hundreds. Next question. What kind of rewards do I want? Probably travel. I'd like to travel some more this year. Next question. Am I planning to make a big purchase soon? I sure am. I'm getting married this year and there are a big number of big purchases. So yeah, check that box. Next question. How much money am I spending monthly? I'm just gonna put in a little something something. And here they are. Several really great recommendations and some travel. Okay, honeymoon. Now it's your turn. Get matched with your card [e-mail] terms and conditions apply. Credit products subject to lender approval. See nerdwallet.com for details.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

This is help wanted the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.

[Nicole Lapin]

Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build.

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

A career or company you love.

[Nicole Lapin]

And it starts now.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Jenny, you worked in corporate for a long time, right?

[Jenny Wood]

I did Google almost 18 years.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So you must have had many a manager during that time.

[Jenny Wood]

I sure did.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Did you have managers who you felt just did not understand you, did not appreciate you?

[Jenny Wood]

Yeah, definitely. I remember this one. Oh, this one, like, cringeworthy moment where I was in a new role and I was one of the only people without a McKinsey background. It was a new strategy and operations role within Google. And my.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

This sounds like a nightmare already.

[Jenny Wood]

This moment was a nightmare, Jason, because I was sitting, I remember the day still the room I was in, I was sitting with my manager and he said, jenny, do you even know how models work?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And you're like, yeah, they show up for photo shoots and then they get paid. Yeah.

[Jenny Wood]

And like they do makeup and hair. And so I just felt like a deer in headlights. And it was such a miserable moment and not a super fun role. But eventually I learned and I powered through. But gosh, if you've got a tough relationship with your manager, it makes you so miserable.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Today that's what we're talking about. And we're not just going to talk about it hypothetically, we're going to talk about it with someone who is dealing with that right now. But first, before I bring that person in, let us acknowledge Jenny Wood. You are a wonderful person. You are also not Nicole Lappin. Nicole Lappin, my usual co host on this show, is on maternity leave and you are ably sitting in for her. Jenny Wood, Google, 18 years and now author of a book, amazing book that is about to come out called Wild Go after what yout Want and Get It. And you have just such a wealth of knowledge about corporate careers. You started a gigantic corporate career program at Google, right?

[Jenny Wood]

I did, yeah. Called Own youn Career. It was a ton of fun and tens of thousands of people benefit from it across, like a zillion countries.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Amazing. I didn't even know there were a zillion countries. So now we are going to make it a zillion and one people who will benefit from your knowledge. We have Mike with us. Mike had reached out to me with this question and I said, Mike, you.

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

Got to come on the show.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Mike. Also not your real name, but you have to come on the show and talk, not really to me, but really to Jenny and untangle this mess that you are in. So first of all, Mike, welcome to Help wanted.

[Mike]

Thank you. I'm glad to be here and appreciate your time.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh my God, we appreciate yours and the boldness of coming on to share this kind of thing. Set us up. Tell us the problem.

[Mike]

I work in engineering and I've been working in this particular company for 20 plus years. And prior to that I also worked probably 15 or more years. So I have roughly 40 something years of experience. So we recently had a change of hands in our department after Covid and a number of us, most of the department left and including my supervisor and they were replaced with younger people half my age. And it's been going okay. It's been a little bit bumpy and we're getting into the swing of things, working with each other now about two or three years into it. And so I'm now the senior guy and they're.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You mean senior guy, like age? Senior guy age? Yes.

[Mike]

And experience in doing these particular jobs that we do, building these things. And so I've. What I've run up against is manager. My manager, who has less experience and is actually not an engineering manager, he pushes back on me and I feel. I'm appalled by it, actually. I have a certain work ethic and I know that upper management appreciates it. They like my attention to detail. I get things done that are sometimes complicated. But this new manager asks me why I do this. Why do I do so much detail that he feels isn't necessary? And so I, at first I was taken aback, literally speechless. And I get emotional and I sometimes stumble on my words and I try to recover. And then I go home and I fume and just stew over it and I'm like, now I get a little bit of that occasionally and I don't say anything now. But in this one instance where he did push back again the next day, I thought I have to calmly explain to him why I do things the way I do. And in this particular complicated project, he was questioning me again why I did this. Specific detail, a certain way, different construction method. And so I took him out there calmly and I showed him and explained to him my reasoning. And so he took that and it was nice. It was good. Since then, it's been only a few weeks, but I still now am on guard because when is this going to suddenly come up again? And I'm going to feel not threatened, but do I have to defend myself again?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Can you color in some details here that I think will help us understand the situation, which is when the manager asks you why you're doing it a certain way, are they asking inquisitively or are they asking accusatorily? Are they like, why are you doing it this way, you dummy? Or are they just genuinely don't understand why you're doing it that way?

[Mike]

I feel that it's accusatory. I feel that he thinks I don't have to do it that way because it's unnecessary and too much.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But when you explained it, the manager was understanding?

[Mike]

Yes, he seemed to be understanding and acquiesced. I thought. Then I thought, wow, that went easy.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So then let me just rewind the tape 15 seconds to when I had asked you if it was if the manager was being inquisitive or accusatory, you said, I feel it's accusatory. So do you feel like, you know it's accusatory and then why does it feel accusatory?

[Mike]

I feel it's accusatory because I've run into it before from him many months ago. Actually a year ago, when he first came on board, he was very quiet. And I now realize he was just observing how everything works, and that's understandable. And then there was one meeting where it came up and he was like, why are you doing so much over work, basically? And I said, listen, this is how I do things. I want to do things right, I don't want to do them fast. And I been successful that way because I judge my performance by engineering drawings and then they go to the manufacturing floor and then I judge my a success on whether the manufacturing people come back confused or with very little questions. And now after 20 something years, I have it down. I've honed that method for myself. And when I was in that meeting a year and a half ago and he was saying, you're doing too much or implying that, I said, I don't want to rush these things, I have to do this. And he thought I was taking too much time. And then it came up again just a few weeks ago or months ago, and it reared its head and I'm like, oh, here we go again.

[Jenny Wood]

It's interesting that you said it's taking too much time. There are a couple different things we could unpack here. One, there could be a communication style that's different between you and him. Maybe he's more of a just short, sweet, and to the point kind of person, and you're more detailed. There could also be, what pressure is he getting from above? Maybe he's getting the pressure that things need to be happening faster and the detail isn't as critical. What pressure do you think he might be getting from above that could be contributing to his reaction to your work?

[Mike]

I feel that from above, his. His superiors, I don't think they're telling him, let's do things faster. I don't think so, because I know people above him. They've expressed to me, like I've mentioned before, that they appreciate my loyalty and also, well, been there so long, as well as my work ethic. They often say, if it's complicated, let's get Mike to do it.

[Jenny Wood]

Mike, what's your goal?

[Mike]

My goal at work, my goal is to be consistent, to be involved, to be proactive, and also to put out this work and these projects that go almost flawlessly. And I'm not perfect. I know that. I don't try for perfection because I know that's impossible. I used to think that, but, no, that's not the case. I try for being excellent.

[Jenny Wood]

How much does your boss's opinion of you matter to you?

[Mike]

Now that I have this sandpaper between us, I would like him to like what I do, but he has said that in an email. I appreciate your attention to detail. Now, that's contradictory to what I just explained earlier about him saying I take too long and his opinion matters. But now, like I said, with this rift, I don't care. I'm just gonna do my work the way I've always done it.

[Jenny Wood]

Yeah. And I'm also hearing rift. I'm hearing sandpaper. Nobody wants sandpaper at work. Right. And you're also saying that in some ways, he is complimenting your work, and in some ways, he's criticizing your work. It sounds like it could be situational or specific to certain types of work or types of projects or different partners who. Who he might think it works better for or worse for. I'll take that again. It sounds like it might be situational for different projects or different types of work. How much, when he's giving you this feedback, have you asked for specifics? For example, how much have you asked him for examples? That's really what I mean.

[Mike]

Examples of if he were to say.

[Jenny Wood]

To you, mike, you're too detailed, things take you too long. How often do you go? Do you say to him, I hear you. I definitely want to understand the feedback better. What are some examples of where I've been too detailed or when it's taken me too long?

[Mike]

No, I've never asked that.

[Jenny Wood]

That could be key because we oftentimes as direct reports of somebody internalize. Like they said, I take too long and therefore I am no good, slow and useless and of no value. When in reality there's so much they might appreciate you. And there might just be this one. Not even just one project, but maybe even one type of communication. How often do you communicate with him and what type of communication? For example, do you have a weekly one on one meeting? Do you often communicate over email? Do you have a running doc that has your a shared document that house all your projects? What is your typical weekly communication with him like?

[Mike]

We have it's daily communication. We're all together in close proximity and we have a weekly engineering meeting and we have software where each of us are assigned our projects and there's communication there. He just checks in there to see where the progress is, whether it's done, whether it's been assigned, where in the whole process I could be in progress, I could be out for approval, things like that. So there's that kind of communication and then there's, you know, verbal daily between us.

[Jenny Wood]

And when you write any email communication?

[Mike]

Oh yeah.

[Jenny Wood]

When you tend to write emails to him, are they on the longer side or the shorter side? Shorter side meaning under five lines, longer side meaning closer to three paragraphs.

[Mike]

I keep it short because I've learned that I hate to say this, the younger generations, they do not. If they see a long emails that is zone out, it's gone. So I keep it short and brief.

[Jenny Wood]

I think that's probably what he's asking for. Right? Because he's saying that he tends to think you're too detailed. But I think this element of asking for examples, which can be done in a very non confrontational way, could be helpful. And then you can separate like where is this a problem? Where is it not a problem? There's a framework that I use as a leader when I'm giving feedback to somebody and it's like how do I give safe feedback? Safe meaning I don't harm the employee, I don't put anybody in danger because it's really hard to get constructive feedback. And safe stands for situation, action, feeling and effect. So let's say that I was giving somebody feedback about their presentation style in a meeting. I would say, okay, the situation is that in our town hall where you were presenting to a bunch of VPs, you used a lot of faces, filler words and that it actually just combined the. The situation and the actions. The situation was in this team meeting last Tuesday. The action was you used a lot of filler words. Then I will say, how does that feel? What was going on for you at that time? What was the feeling for you? Which really honors what they were bringing to the table. They might, for example, say that, you know what? I was really nervous because I was so excited that I was finally presenting in front of these VPs. And then I continue with effect E, which is the effect of this is you didn't seem as confident as I know you are. And I might also say this is not a huge deal. We're not talking, like any ding on your annual performance score, but just a little nugget for you to know, even though you're doing a phenomenal job around so many of the things. So my guess is that your manager has not read my memo on how to give safe feedback, but I think there are some elements that you could pull from it. Because if he's not giving you the S, the situation, or the A, the action, it is completely fair to say in a very neutral way. Hey, boss, I really am committed to tailoring my style to what works best for you, and I trust you as a leader. Even if you don't think this guy's, like, the world's best leader, you know, on the planet, like, it's still okay to be kind and thoughtful in how you approach it and ask for some of those things and you don't have to necessarily go into how it makes you feel. Or, of course, you wouldn't go into the E. What is the effect? But. But I think that asking for the situation and the action can get you on the same page about where this is or is not an issue for him, which might make you feel overall more confident about what. What is happening here and what is not, versus what you might be telling yourself about you thinking you're overall not doing a good job if that is how you feel or feeling the sandpaper.

[Mike]

Between him when these situations happen. I have to take a deep breath. I'm emotional sometimes. And I. Yeah, and so I like what you just said is going back at him with. Not at him. That sounds confrontational. Going back to him and saying, where's these specific details that I'm taking too long, whatever. That wouldn't even occur to me because I would be so emotional.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I'm really glad, Mike, that you brought that up, because you had mentioned that earlier on and I wanted to address it. Stick around. Help wanted. Will be right back.

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

Welcome back to Help Wanted.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Let's get to it.

[Mike]

What you just said is going back at him with not at him. That sounds confrontational. Going back to him and saying where's the specific details that I'm taking too long, whatever. That wouldn't even occur to me because I would be so emotional.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I'm really glad, Mike, that you brought that up because you had mentioned that earlier on and I wanted to address it and try to get you to separate it because I think that what Jenny has been at this whole time in asking you to get granular in the communication with this manager, but then in also trying to understand the motivations of this manager, is in a way working on what is driving the interactions with the manager and what does the manager need. And those are different things than what you want as defined when Jenny asked for your goals. So what do I mean by that? I mean that if you can be dispassionate enough about this to see it this way, the things that your manager wants you to do, or the way in which they're asking for you to do things, or the way in which they're asking for you to justify things are separate from you doing those things. For example, I have had many bosses and I have one right now because I am the editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine. It's not my company. I have a boss. That boss checks in a lot. And I sometimes find that very annoying. But here's what I've learned. What I've learned is what that boss wants. And what that boss wants is to feel like he knows what's going on. That boss hates not knowing what's going on. He wants to make sure that he is on top of everything. Not in a like super controlling, micromanaging way, but it's just like when my boss feels out of the loop, he feels crazy. Like he just needs to know. And so I have learned that in tolerating that which I find annoying. I like people who just leave me alone. I don't like really being checked in on, but I found that in understanding the things that he wants and just delivering them because this is the way that he thinks and who knows why and whatever, it doesn't really matter to me as long as I know that I am fulfilling those needs of his. I now have a license to. To operate the way that I want to. Right? I've paid a toll. The toll is understanding what the toll taker needs from me so that I can get past the toll and continue on to do the Work that I like. So I am hearing you say, and this is more of an assessment and a theory than anything else, but I want to put it to you. I'm hearing you say that when he questions your work, that you are feeling a personal affront. You are very much connecting his communication style to your goals. But I am hypothesizing to you that they might actually be separate. That if you understand what's driving the communication style or you're just willing to engage with the communication style, you need justification for why I'm doing things. All right, that's fine. What do you need specific justification on? Not in an accusatory way, but. All right, yeah, no, that's a great question. What parts did you not understand? Let me walk you through it. Okay. It was this, and then I did this, and that was the reason for that. Then he's satisfied. And that is a completely separate unit of experience, its own little box. And once you've solved for it, Mike, you get to keep doing the work that you do at the level of rigor that you demand of yourself. And if you can just decouple these two things, then you can just focus on the manager being the manager, and that's its own project. And then once you have fulfilled that, once you've paid the toll to this particular toll taker with the particular currency that he wants for his toll, which in this case is like justification for specific kinds of work, then you can keep doing the work that you do well. And then there's no actual personal connection between the two.

[Mike]

The one toll that he wants me to do is work faster.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But does he? I'm not sure that he does.

[NerdWallet Speaker]

The.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

The examples that you have given me don't tell me that he wants you to work faster. The examples that you've given me tell me that he doesn't understand why you're.

[Jenny Wood]

Not working faster or that you're too detailed. And sometimes, especially as you described, if he's of a different generation, and if this generation just wants short and sweet and to the point, which, by the way, I think sometimes is a senior leadership desire, not a generational difference. And senior leaders tend to want short and sweet. And to the point, it could be that it is simply about a style versus a speed.

[Mike]

So it seems, Jason, that what you just described was some. When I took him and showed him this specific issue with this one design, and I explained my reasoning for doing it certain way, he was very appreciative and, like I said, acquiesced and didn't push Anything. And he understood. I guess that is an example of what you just explained. Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Here's what I'm hearing. You don't understand him, and he doesn't understand you.

[Mike]

There was another instance where I spent. There was a. These deadline. We have incredible deadlines. They're. They're hard deadlines. You can't even push them at all. So I had to do something over a weekend, and I spent 22 hours over a weekend. And when I mentioned that, he goes. He basically said, why? And that was one day where I was like, oh, my gosh. And I just said, because that's what needed to get this job done. Then he repeated why? And I just left it at that. My blood started to boil, and I just didn't say anything. And I just. I got that job done. It was harrowing, but it happened. But that response from him was like, whoa.

[Jenny Wood]

I can understand that. Especially if it happened directly after the 22 hours you spent. Okay, we can't. Working, which is just like salt in the wound, right? That's what you want is, Mike, here's a bonus. Take your partner out to dinner. Like, what a champ. So that's legitimately hard there. I agree with you, Jason. There is an element of I don't understand you and you don't understand me. And I think the more openness you have, Mike, in desiring to understand him, which can come through what and how questions. Right? Always what and how questions. Not yes or no questions to your manager. What could I be doing to show you that I am working quickly? Or how has my speed, or lack thereof, impacted you in your ability to lead this team? Or how could I better understand what good looks like to you in terms of the speed versus excellence balance? The other thing that I really picked up on you said was just how terrible it felt emotionally when he gives you this type of feedback. And it's. You almost can't even compose yourself.

[Mike]

Exactly.

[Jenny Wood]

And this is hard. And. And I'm gonna say something wildly unpopular that Jason mentioned that's coming out. It's called Wild Courage, and the chapter titles are Weird, Selfish, Shameless, Nosy, Obsessed, Manipulative, Brutal, Reckless, and Bossy. And I'm actually going to dive into manipulative a little bit here. And one thing that I talk about with manipulative is the importance of being inauthentic at work. Be authentic at work. Bring your whole self to work. It looks fabulous on a poster. Right. But is that really what helps you be successful with your leader? I would argue no. And Seth Godin, the well known author, has this example of a surgeon comes in and you don't want this surgeon coming in and saying, oh, I had a fight with my wife this morning and I only got two hours of sleep and my kids are a wreck. Like I've got all these problems. You want your surgeon to come in and present as if they are buttoned up and they're going to give you the best possible surgery in the world and you've got nothing to worry about. So the more you can almost, and this to me is a type of, by the way, I redefine manipulation. It's in no way, of course, to harm or hurt anybody or yourself. It is to simply build influence through empathy and craft real, meaningful relationships. Because every relationship takes intentionality and strategy, right? Like whenever we open our mouths, we're always trying to manipulate something. You came here trying to manipulate us to give you good advice so you can be happier with your manager, right? I manipulate my kid every day saying, do you want to wear the red shirt or the blue shirt so we can get the hell out of the house and get to school on time? That's enough agency, right? While maintaining control of the situation. So we're always manipulating if we're speaking otherwise, what's the point? So I wonder if in this effort to be inauthentic, if you can react and almost play a game where it's okay, Mike would normally be short of breath or feel a tingle or feel the hairs on my arms stand up and you almost gamify it to say, okay, how can I manipulate the situation to deepen the relationship with my manager at this point versus create more sandpaper? And that really could be almost faking it. Like, oh, tell me more about that. Or presenting with a positive affect. I always say be a net positive energy contributor. It's one of the best things you can do. Or almost lean into the feedback as much as possible as almost as if you're faking it, which might feel really inauthentic, but almost to try it on for size. And I'm seeing a face. So we just got audio here for the audience. But tell me about the face.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Because you don't want to do it, right? You don't want to do it. But here's the thing.

[Mike]

How do I lean into it?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You keep your eyes on the prize.

[Jenny Wood]

Do you want to be right or do you want to be rich?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Or just said another way. Do you want to be right or do you want to do the work that you love to do in the way that you want to do it, you can do that stuff, but it requires, like this adapting the style in which you are interacting with this person. But, like, what's interesting, Mike, is that I just had this realization. I could be wrong, but you tell me you don't want to change because you've been doing it the way that you have for a long time and you know that it's good and it works, right?

[Mike]

That's right. And I have affirmation from people above him and also all the other project managers that are there. They even. But Manufacturing Floor says when they see my initials on the drawing, they breathe a sigh of relief.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's great. So guess what? You don't have to change that, but you do have to change the way in which you interact with a manager. That's the thing. I honestly think, having spent this time hearing all this, that is the problem. It's not actually changing the work, it's just changing the way in which you interact with a manager because your resistance to change is bleeding into things that don't actually matter. The thing that does matter is the work that you're doing. Work that you're doing is important. Getting it right is important not just for you and not just for the company, but for your clients, for everybody. Very important. The way in which you did it before worked for some other manager, and the way in which you can do it now will work for this manager. And as long as you're open to changing that, you still get to do the thing that you do best. I'm going to speak for your manager right now. I don't know your manager at all, but I'm going to be that manager for a moment. Ready? Here it goes. His manager goes home to his wife and he's, man, I got this guy Mike on the team. He's been there a long time. Guy clearly knows what he's doing. He's very well respected, but he works differently than other people. And I don't really understand why he's working the way he does. And whenever I ask him about it, the guy is a total jerk about it and he gets all flustered and it makes me, like, nervous to. To interact with him and ask him why he's doing things like that. So I just, like, don't know what to do with this guy. He's clearly very good and people like him, but he doesn't let me in. I can't seem to have a dialogue with him. Do you think that that is a possibly realistic thing that this Guy is.

[Mike]

Saying at home, I think it's very real. And I think what you suggest is the answer to my angst is opening up a dialogue relationship with him more so than I have. And I have to say I did reach out and I've complimented him on the qualities that he's brought to the company that we've needed for a long time. And when I did that, it was genuine. And that was after these incidences. And sometimes I'll go home and I'm like, did I really mean that when I said that to him? And I want him to know that. And I don't want this there, at least the way I feel it. I don't know if he feels it on his end, but you just described he may have. So I guess I need to work on that. Like you said, the relationship, Mike, I.

[Jenny Wood]

Love that you found good and shared it with him. This gets back to being a net positive energy contributor, which is like one of the most valuable assets any employee can bring to a company. It reminds me a little bit of something my mom taught me my entire life growing up. Jenny, it's just easier to love your mother in law. You can look for the bad or you could look for the good. You can always see the flaws.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You can.

[Jenny Wood]

And I joke with my mother in law about this all the time and she happens to be wonderful. But of course you can always choose to harp on the positive or harp on the negative. And so of course a manager, it can be a tough relationship. But I love that you're identifying things that you respect about him and that you're communicating that with him. And even if you did or did not feel it, he felt it 80% but not 100%. That gets back to the point of it's okay to be a little bit inauthentic or maybe it was like a touch manipulative in the best possible way because you were building influence through empathy or you're building this relationship through empathy. And one final piece here because this is just to me a very tactical thing of what not to do. And then we can look at the flip side of what to do in your case. But I've managed a lot of people as a leader at Google and I really pay attention to how people respond to feedback. And it's almost like the feedback becomes secondary. You need to better understand strategy. Could be my feedback or you need to tighten your communications. Whatever it is, it's less about that feedback. I'm actually really watching how they react to that feedback. So let's Take two examples. What I don't recommend is somebody once sent me a 17 row spreadsheet when I gave them feedback about, let's just say I said, you're too detail oriented. They gave me a 17 line spreadsheet of all the times where they were not detail oriented. And I was like, oh my gosh, the irony. When you push back on feedback, all it does to me is say, okay, I didn't think you were ready for leadership before and now I really don't think you're ready for leadership because you don't have a growth mindset. You're not able to take in feedback. And then you take the opposite example of that where I say to somebody, you're too detail oriented. And they say, okay, I'd love to hear examples. I'm committed to working on it. Here's how I'd like to partner with you on it. And then the next one on one they come back and they say, Jenny, thinking back about your feedback that I'm too detail oriented. These are three ideas, I have to address it. And then two weeks later they come back and they say, here's a screenshot of an email where normally I would have written it longer, but I shortened it because I'm really focusing on this feedback. Does this look good to you? Does it look like I need to make more improvements? This person has such a growth mindset. They are so invested in this feedback, whether it's fully authentic or not. And I don't really know the difference because to me it just feels like they're a net positive energy contributor and that they're putting effort into building this relationship and improving the skill that to me is the future leader. Not that you're trying to get to leadership. I know that you're toward the end of your career versus the beginning, but these things make a real difference. And your relationship with your manager matters, like your relationship with your mother in law. So it's just easier to love your manager and to make it work easier for you because really legitimately is stressful and frustrating and it creates a lot of unhappiness when you don't have a good relationship with your manager. And my guess is that you feel that when you're putting your head on the pillow each night thinking about the daily interactions with him.

[Mike]

Yeah, this thing is in the back of my mind and I don't want to start the day every day like that and I don't want to ruminate over it over the weekends. And so I'm trying to find this Resolution and I think some of your suggestions today I'm going to try to do that.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stick around. Help Wanted. We'll be right back.

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

Welcome back to Help Wanted.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Let's get to it. So the next time your manager says, mike, why'd you do it like that? What are you going to do?

[Mike]

I am going to calmly explain why I do this certain thing, this certain way, just like I did. And also, Jenny, what else could he do?

[Jenny Wood]

Ask what and how questions. Ask how else could I improve this? Ask what could I do that would make this better in your eyes? What's an example of me doing this? Well, that you want me to emulate more? Yes, I think you can explain why you did it. But that puts you on the defensive and might put you in that state of here's why I did it and here's why. It's good and here's why this is better than you would do it. Manager with less experience than me and less skill and less talent, less charisma. But I think opening up to more about what else it is that he is looking for sends a signal that you are there to grow, to shift and to adjust to his particular style.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Without abandoning what you know is good. You don't have to do that. These are not the same thing.

[Mike]

If I ask him how, what are you looking for to satisfy his idea of better. Coming from a young guy, I don't know if I have confidence, if he's going to tell me how to do it better.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But here's the thing. You don't know what he's going to say. So let's hear what he has to say. You need to know. The big problem with this whole situation is that we don't have enough information. We don't know what kind of pressures he might have. We don't know what kind of goals he has. We don't know if he's annoyed with you or not. We don't know if he's inquisitive or not. We just don't know. And I think a big part of the problem there is because you're seeing him as a burden and therefore you're not open to investigating what the nature of this situation is. Take Jenny's questions not as you like laying yourself down on an operating table in front of this manager to say, manager, cut me up and change me. That's not what's happening at all. What Jenny is asking you to do is go on a research mission to understand what this guy is thinking and what he's looking for. And My bet is, given the great work that you've done, how long you've been at that company, and that when you've explained yourself to this manager, he has been like, oh, okay. What is missing here is actually that he doesn't fully understand that you are a solution to his problem. And that's not happening because you don't understand his problem and he doesn't understand your solution. Yeah.

[Mike]

So do you think it's wise or advisable to go into his office, close the door and say, I feel this tension, and how can we understand each other?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Sounds good to me.

[Jenny Wood]

It sounds good to me, too.

[Mike]

I have to be brave.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, you do. And you have to position yourself in a way that may be uncomfortable. There was a time where a manager did something that was so, so annoying. Like, in short, I had proposed this thing and then. And the manager, like, seemed to be into it, and then the manager completely undercut it. And I was like, what the hell? And what I wanted to do was go to the manager and be like, hey, screw you. I brought this great thing. Why did you do it like that? It's not what I did. You know why? Because that wouldn't have gotten me anywhere. Instead, here's what I did. I went to the manager and I said, was there something that I did wrong that led you to the decision that you made? And I don't think that I did anything wrong. And that's not really the way in which I want to present it, but I know that presenting it like that is going to get me the better outcome. Presenting it like that is not going to put the manager on the defensive. Is instead actually going to be the opposite. Is going to make the manager feel like, oh, no, he feels like something was wrong. I got to solve that problem. And then was like, very open with me. And we. And it was great because although I still think the manager made the wrong call, I understand where the manager was coming from. I understand that it's like, there's not a problem here, and now we can move on. Like, that is to go back to Jenny's thing. That is manipulative, but it's manipulative in the right way. It's manipulative towards an outcome. So, yeah, it's going to feel a little uncomfortable. But, like, Mike, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that you do good work. And, like, the way in which you talk to this manager is. That's just the toll. It's just you paying a toll along the. And I don't want to pay the toll. When I cross the bridge into New Jersey from my home in Brooklyn, I don't want to pay. It's like ridiculous amount of $16. I don't want to pay that. But I do because that's what the toll is and I need to get to New Jersey. And so you are going to go into the manager and you're going to say that and it's going to feel weird. But what it's going to drive is an outcome which is you getting to the destination and you not waking up in the morning feeling bad about this. And that's more valuable than you feeling a little uncomfortable walking into that room and saying something that doesn't come from your heart. What would you rather do, say to the manager, there's some tension here. I'd really like to resolve it. I want to understand you. Or would you rather wake up every morning obsessing over this for the next two and a half years? I would rather just walk into the manager's office and say the thing that's a little inauthentic but is ultimately more valuable.

[Jenny Wood]

Yeah, it's a 20. You're trading a 20 minute uncomfortable conversation for two years, potentially of comfort.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I'm afraid there's one thing I'm afraid if I do that, and I'm afraid he's going to ask me to work how I can't work, and that is if he says, speed things up, don't be so detailed, that's going to result in some problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

No, here's what you're going to do. You're going to tell him in a very reasoned way why the way in which you do the work that you do is so important. Right. If he says, he says, what I need you to do, Mike, is speed things up. What you're going to say is, it'll be really helpful for me to understand where that's coming from. Is there a mandate to move things faster? But let me tell you my concerns. My concerns are that you and I, this is classic navigating a disagreement is like, always establish the shared goals. So you, like, you want to do good work for this company. The manager wants to do good work for this company. That's a great starting point. So, Mike, I need you to speed things up. And you're like, that's. I hear that. I gotta be honest with you. That makes me uncomfortable. Not just because I work in a certain style, but because I think that it's really valuable and important for X, Y and Z reasons. So number One can I understand where that's coming from. But then number two is you want these projects to be a success. I want these projects to be a success. We both want to do good work here. If you'll let me tell you why me working the way that I do, I think is really important. And then tell them it can't be just because it's the way that you've always done it. But that's not the reason. It's because of xyz, like really important thing. And so share that. I don't think he's hearing that. I think that you're feeling defensive about it. But I don't think that he has any idea where you're coming from. And I'm not hearing at any point during this conversation a signal that he is trying to be reckless. I think that he just doesn't know. So you got to tell him.

[Jenny Wood]

And no matter what, Mike, no matter what the outcome is of this conversation, you're going to walk away feeling brave. And that in and of itself is a win.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. So will you do it and then tell us what happened?

[Mike]

I will. But do I do it when I feel that he's attacking me or do I just walk in there out of the blue because I have that tension that's hanging on my shoulder?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

My instinct is that you do it when things are calm because then you'll be the least emotional.

[Jenny Wood]

Yeah. I think you can email him ahead of time and just say, hey, with my previous managers have always done a check in once a year and we haven't done it even though we've been working together for a couple of years. These are some general questions I just think are great relationship builders to help have an awesome impact together. Whatever you want to phrase it, probably not that. And then it's just a list of three to five questions. What do you think is working well with our relationship? What do you think could be improved? What do you want me to focus on in 2025? What do you think I'm really knocking out of the park? And that in and of itself can, in a very thoughtful and unabrasive way, open the conversation for some of this harder stuff you want to talk about.

[Mike]

I think that sounds very good.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Amazing. All right. Jenny Wood, my guest co host, author of Wild Courage Go after what you want and get it, Mike. You need to go after what you want and get it by having that hard conversation with your manager. I have one final question for you. That question is, do you know how models work? I'll take that as a yes.

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

[Nicole Lapin]

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our [e-mail] for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagramoneynews and TikTok MoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

[Public Endorsement Speaker]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[Nicole Lapin]

All right, well, talk to you soon.