Reacting to the "Did Women Ruin the Workplace?" Headline

Summary

Help Wanted – "Reacting to the 'Did Women Ruin the Workplace?' Headline"
Podcast: Help Wanted by Money News Network
Date: November 11, 2025
Hosts: Jason Feifer (Entrepreneur Editor-in-Chief), Nicole Lapin (Money Expert)
Producer/Contributor: Morgan Lavoy

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around the controversial New York Times headline "Did Women Ruin the Workplace?", later adjusted to "Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace?". Jason and Nicole dissect the implications behind such a question, debunk simplistic narratives about gender and workplace culture, and reflect on personal experiences as leaders. They critically examine cultural expectations, leadership styles, and whether "softness" or feelings in the workplace represent a female influence or a broader, more nuanced shift in how we work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Headline’s Controversy and Origins

• Jason introduces the fiery New York Times headline and its quick edit, noting, “I mean, if you’re going to write a headline like that, you have to know what you’re doing.” (05:07)
• Both hosts admit not listening to the full conversation behind the headline, but proceed to discuss its cultural resonance.

2. Summary of the Argument (06:00–07:19)

• The idea being discussed: The workplace has become more traditionally "feminine"—softer, more focused on feelings—allegedly as a result of women entering the workforce or the spread of liberal feminism.
• Nicole: “The argument being that men prioritize success and women prioritize everybody... getting along or something.” (06:20)

3. The "Like Me" vs. "Respect Me" Dilemma

• Nicole reflects on the tension she feels as a woman leader: “Do I want to be respected or liked? … When I go more into the like-me category, I’m not able to focus as much on the bottom line...” (07:27–08:10)
• Nicole shares how she struggles with balancing efficiency and warmth in meetings, especially as an entrepreneur responsible for her team's welfare.

4. Meeting Culture as a Microcosm (08:42–11:13)

• Small talk and chit chat at the start of Zoom meetings serve as a focal point for how “softness”—often coded as “feminine”—enters the workplace.
• Morgan (producer) joins via Zoom and observes: “We have someone on our team who starts our calls by saying how beautiful everyone looks... which I would say is a specifically female experience.” (10:44)
• Nicole admits: “I’m just not a super big fan [of small talk]. I care that everybody had an amazing weekend, but we have things to do.” (09:18)

5. Perception, Gender, and Leadership Styles

• Nicole: “There is an expectation that you ask about how everyone’s doing... but you’re not being hurt by not playing into that.” (11:13)
• Morgan reassures Nicole that her direct style isn’t off-putting: “It never strikes me as off putting or callous... If anything, it’s just good leadership.” (11:13–12:34)
• The group discusses whether social expectations around warmth and emotional labor differ for women and men in leadership.

6. Jason’s Theories on Workplace Change

Theory 1: Chit chat is about waiting for the leader, not gender.

• “The chit chat at the beginning is because everyone is waiting for the leader to take control... I don’t think that’s gendered.” (13:46–14:35)

Theory 2: Siloed work drives small talk, not feminism.

• Jason argues that the rise of digital, remote work leaves fewer opportunities for informal connection, so people naturally crave small talk during meetings, regardless of gender: “The moments in which individuals on a team connect at all... is in group calls.” (16:49–19:23)

Theory 3: The implied contrast is false.

• He debunks the idea that male-only workspaces are more productive or less “soft”: “Having worked at many male-dominated places... they function exactly the same.” (23:05–27:13)
• Jason describes all-male meetings where the leader prompts small talk about personal and professional highlights—“I love this. It gives us time to connect outside of... the transactionalness of running a business.” (25:00 approx.)

7. Emotional Labor & Gendered Worry

• Nicole is candid about the anxiety she feels over being seen as insensitive if she skips personal check-ins: “Do you ever have anxiety that you are being insensitive? … I do.” (15:20)
• Jason, in contrast, doesn’t worry about his directness and jokes, “I am a warrior. That’s true.” (15:34)

8. Impact of ‘Feelings’ on Innovation & Productivity

• Jason questions the premise that feelings have weakened the workplace: “We’ve built the world’s largest companies ever... with this kind of culture. So it just doesn’t make sense to me that we’ve ruined workplace culture if it is succeeding.” (26:45–27:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jason (on attention-grabbing headlines): “You can’t actually even say that something lit up the Internet because the Internet is just always lit up with rage.” (04:54)
• Nicole (on leadership pressure): “There often are times where I have to ask myself, do I want to be respected or liked?” (07:27)
• Morgan (on team expectations): “If we had any men on these calls, the calls might start looking very differently.” (11:04)
• Jason (debunking gendered small talk): “I just don’t believe in the implied contrast here. I just don’t think this is a true statement about how things used to be or how things would be otherwise.” (26:45)
• Nicole (on leadership worry): “I have clearly spent more time than Jason worrying about this, when I could be using that cognitive load to do other things.” (22:53)
• Jason (embracing the ‘warrior’ mindset): “Nicole and Morgan, don’t you dare tell me what happened over your weekend. I don’t give a crap. That is the warrior mindset, and I’m sticking with it.” (28:43)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Headline Introduction & Context: 04:42–05:34
• Summary of NYT Argument: 06:00–06:46
• Nicole’s Leadership Reflection: 07:27–08:10
• Zoom Meeting Culture & Small Talk Debate: 08:42–11:13
• Team Perceptions (with Morgan’s input): 11:13–12:34
• Jason’s Theory 1 (Chit chat & Leadership): 13:46–14:35
• Theory 2 (Remote Work & Small Talk): 16:00–19:23
• Nicole on Emotional Labor: 15:20–15:34, 22:53
• Theory 3 (Debunking Gendered Workplaces): 23:05–27:13
• Warrior Mindset & Playful Conclusion: 27:13–29:09

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Tone & Style

The conversation is casual, witty, slightly irreverent, and self-aware, with both hosts joking about cultural stereotypes while being honest about their own experiences as leaders. There’s a playful yet incisive approach to dissecting workplace dynamics, leaving listeners with practical insight and a rebuttal to shallow gendered narratives about professional culture.

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Takeaways

• The premise that "women ruined the workplace" is reductive and unsupported.
• Leadership style and team warmth are complex issues rooted in modern work structures and individual preferences—not simply gender.
• Women leaders often feel extra pressure to display warmth, but directness is not inherently off-putting or gendered.
• Small talk and rapport-building exist in all-male and mixed-gender workspaces.
• True workplace success lies in balancing efficiency and connection, regardless of gender norms.

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Transcript

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[B]

Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

[A]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

[B]

And it starts now.

[A]

So, Nicole, did you see the thing lighting up the Internet this week?

[B]

Which thing?

[A]

So many things light up so many things.

[B]

Depends on the rabbit hole that you have for your particular algorithm.

[A]

It's true. You know, it's like you can't actually even say that something lit up the Internet because the Internet is just always lit up with rage. It's like, oh, did you see the light that got turned on in the bright building? And no, I didn't, because it's freaking bright. Anyway, in this case, it was the New York Times running a headline that said, did women ruin the workplace? Which, yeah, by the time I actually paid any attention to this, the Times had changed the headline because I guess they decided it was too spicy. I mean, if you're going to write a headline like that, you have to know what you're doing. But anyway, now it says, did liberal feminism ruin the workplace?

[B]

I want to know more about that change. That's.

[A]

I know. That's actually probably the most interesting part about this. So this is an hour long conversation. Did you listen to any of this conversation, Nicole?

[C]

No.

[A]

No, nor did I.

[B]

Give me the tldr.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

I mean, basically one of the women says, I think that women going into the workforce has made it more feminine, less masculine, more soft, you know, less or.

[A]

Or less women entering the workforce. But this, however they're going to define liberal feminism, the idea of making the workplace more culturally, traditionally feminine, which I.

[B]

Think would be lots of feelings.

[A]

The argument being that men prioritize success and women prioritize everybody. Yeah, everybody getting along or something. There's this quote in the conversation that goes, men evolve to be warriors, women evolve to be warriors. Which I don't know, is a little reductive, although clever wordplay, I guess. All right, so we were talking about whether or not to talk about this on the show because it's the thing everyone's talking about, which is actually kind of a terrible reason to talk about anything.

[B]

But don't say that.

[A]

No, it's true. It's true. It's true. I think that we know we're going to keep this part of the. In the episode because. Because I think that. I think that part of the way in which we create this kind of, like, frenetic monoculture is that people talk about things. Because people are talking about things. And, like, that's actually not a very good reason to talk about something. But I was going to say that while we were debating whether or not to talk about this on the show, you said that you have a story, and I love a good Nicole story. You have a story that you thought I would have a lot to say about.

[B]

Well, that was just me baiting you into just getting, oh, my God show. But it's not a real story on the bait.

[A]

All right, well, tell me what it is.

[B]

Like, it's something that I think you would have thoughts on, but I, you know, look, I run a company. I am a woman. Breaking news. And this idea has hit really close to home, especially this week, as I'm thinking about how to be a leader. And there often are times where I have to ask myself, do I want to be respected or liked? And also I run a startup essentially, that I funded and have to be responsible for a lot of people. And so when I go more into the like me category, you know, I'm not able to focus as much on the bottom line, which I think sometimes is hard to do.

[A]

But like, me category being like, you want to be the boss that is left.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We get into a zone sometimes where there's a combination. Right. And I think that that can be described in the microcosm of an experience that we all have, which is the start of a zoom meeting. So I am. Morgan knows this. Please put on your camera for a second because I would love to see your reaction to this.

[A]

Okay. Come on in, Morgan. Morgan, who produces this show, she is now on the zoom with us. Hello. Hello.

[B]

So I think this discussion can start with an experience we all have had many, many times, which is, how do we start the zoom meeting? With small talk. With a lot of, you know, what did we do this weekend? What did we do this morning? What did we eat? All of those types of things. I notoriously. I'm sure I'm not a super big fan. I'm just not a super big fan.

[A]

Of the zoom chit chat.

[B]

Yeah. You know, like, I care that everybody had an amazing weekend, but we have things to do, so. And I'm not great at the small talk generally, which is a different issue and a different show, which I think we've done a thing about small talk, maybe.

[A]

Yeah. So you're good at the big talk. The big talk is more important anyways.

[B]

But you know that I think that that discussion, the chit chat and the, you know, all of that type of stuff is lovely, you know, but I think that's an example of some. Some softness. Right. Like, I might be seen as. I don't know what I'm seen as. Morgan can tell me to skip that because I would like to get down to business because I would like to know how people are feeling, but I would also like to pay them so they could have nice weekends with their family and friends and things like that. And so there is a balance. And probably you can do both. And I probably don't strike it very well, but I think in the beginning of those meetings is an example of like a very feminine type of vibe, of like, la, la, la. Let's like talk about everything. And, you know, and I'm not a super big proponent of that, but that has come into our workplace.

[A]

Okay, I have something to say about this. But first, Morgan, because Nicole teed it up. How is she viewed? How is this situation unfolding from the eyes of someone outside of Nicole's head?

[C]

Well, I think that it's funny that Nicole didn't mention that we have someone on our team who starts our calls by saying how beautiful everyone looks today.

[A]

Really? Okay, well, that is not a thing I've ever witnessed in any call that.

[C]

I've been on, which I would say is a specifically female experience.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And I think that if we had any men on these calls, the calls might start looking very differently.

[B]

I didn't want to be super specific.

[C]

No. So fair. I think that in our internal calls, it never strikes me as off putting or callous or insensitive or like, uninterested in our personal life that you're like, all right, let's talk about what we're doing for this week. I think especially because our weekly meetings or 30 minutes with the team that it is like, you know, we're going to be really efficient with this time. And I appreciate that. I think that I can see, though, how you might have a concern that. And I think that this is kind of specific to being a lady in the workplace that, like, there is an expectation that you ask about how everyone's doing and how their weekend was and things like that, but you're not being hurt by not playing into that. Certainly. I think that on external meetings, I have noticed when you're pitching or something, I will. I'm more likely to be like, how are you? Like, where are you building up a little bit of rapport? Because normally I'm about to try to sell them something and you are like, right in there with the, like, how do we work together? Like, let's make it happen. Like, as you've been saying on calls recently lately, like, let's not get half pregnant.

[A]

Like, also a line that doesn't show up a whole lot on men only calls.

[C]

Right, Exactly. And so I think that on those types of calls, I do see a difference in the way that we approach it in that you're more direct and right down to business. And I think that there's sort of two ways to look at it. One is like, you know, do people have an expectation because you're a woman that you're going to ask more about their feelings and does that hurt you in some way or are they underestimating you because you're a woman and because you're so direct, they're like, that's confident. That's badass. Very cool. So I have not, as somebody who works for you, I have not been affected by the way that you start calls at all. Like, I think that it's just good leadership. But I. What I can't speak to you is how you're being perceived by other people in the work world and whether they have certain expectations about how touchy feely or feely feely you're going to be. Touchy.

[B]

There's no touching on Zooms or in real life.

[A]

Right. Or anywhere. Just feely feely. Okay, I'm listening to this and I came up with three theories. Can I run them all by you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Theory number one, the chit chat at the beginning is because everyone is waiting for the leader to take control. Because if the call has started and there are a bunch of people and Nicole is the leader, then Nicole will start the call officially. And until Nicole starts the call officially, then nobody else can take control of it because it's not somebody else's role to take control. So what are you going to do? You're going to chit chat and they're going to chit chat about whatever. And then maybe, like, the tone of chit chat might be different if it's all women or men, but like, that thing of everyone just checking in with each other is not a gendered thing, but rather simply a. Somebody has to fill the space until the person who actually leads the meeting starts the meeting. Agree or disagree. That is theory number one.

[C]

I like that.

[B]

I don't know if there's a difference also between a woman who has a salary or works hourly versus, like, me, who, you know, has to make sure that those are paid. And I don't know if there is a difference there, but I want to get down to business. Like, if I'm paying you hourly, I care about you as a human being, but I would like to use those hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To do work things.

[A]

You don't want to pay somebody to hear about their weekend. I wouldn't want to pay someone to hear about their weekend. I don't want to hear about anyone's weekend, even for free. I mean, that's really boring. I don't care about that. Right.

[B]

But do you ever have anxiety that you are being insensitive? Because I guess perhaps the difference is I do and yeah, I don't. I worry about this. And you are a warrior about.

[A]

I am a warrior. That's true. It's true.

[C]

I said that about you. Jason.

[A]

I. You know, everyone does. Nobody can say it right now, but I am wearing a large helmet with horns and a. And a sword strapped behind my back. So this tees up. Theory number two. Let me tell you theory number two, which is that these people in this New York Times nonsense are trying to draw.

[B]

Tell us how you really feel.

[A]

I've just begun. Are trying to explain in a hyper simplistic way what they perceive to be a massive cultural shift across time in workplace, right? So they're basically saying workplaces used to be one way, now they're another way. There's a simple reason for it. It's liberal feminism. Like, that's basically the argument, right? And that's what happens whenever you create any kind of construction that is. Did blank ruin blank, Right. Did video games ruin children? Well, okay, so you're saying that across time, children have radically transformed, and there is one cause of that, and it's video games. That is the central way in which this stuff gets argued. And I just generally hate that because the world is more complex and systems are more complex than we ever want to make them out to be. So that is why I.

[B]

Doesn't make a good headline.

[A]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Which is why I have failed as a fire breathing pundit in my life. But. But here is one other thing that has changed across time, one of many that I think is worth considering that also might play into what we are witnessing, and that is that work has become more siloed. So in a earlier era, a less digital era, people had to work more collaboratively. They had to be in the same room together, working on the same projects. Now we are all in our own places, we're all working on our own computers, and I often don't actually have to interact that much with other people on my team to have meaningful collaborations with them. And as a result of that, which has nothing to do with liberal feminism, as a result of that, the moments in which individuals on a team connect at all in any way, any opportunity to talk with each other is in group calls. And so very naturally a thing that happens in the group calls is some version of personal connection which generally starts with small talk, chit chat, right? If you go to a party, even if you run into a great friend at a party, the first minute or two is going to be like, oh, so you know what's new lately before you, like, find a deeper thing to talk about. But we're never going to get into the deeper thing because we're a bunch of professionals on a call and we know we only have a few minutes before Nicole says, okay, we've got an agenda here, let's jump into it. And so everyone just small talks, right? Which is what happens on my team calls. So let's say, for example, the print magazine of Entrepreneur magazine, they're the Print team of entrepreneur. It's a great team. Everyone lives all over the place. It's totally remote. And most people are not having conversations where you're hearing each other's voices, except for these team calls. And so the call starts and everyone's like, oh, so what's going on? What's new? Like, oh, Paul, you just went and visited your daughter at college. That's awesome. How was that? You know, and it's like that happens. And I just sit back and let that happen for a few minutes because I'm thinking, these are great people and we never otherwise have a time to talk to each other because we're all siloed. So let's spend a minute or two doing this and then we'll get into the business. And so that is a team run by a man. Me. Hello. In which there's also this chit chat. And the team is like basically 50, 50 men, women. And. And you're seeing the exact same thing happening. And my thesis is that it has nothing to do with any kind of like cultural force. It's just the way we work now. Thoughts?

[B]

Yes. And the difference is that you don't worry about this and I do and the perception. I worry about the perception that like, she's a. She doesn't care about my child's visit or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're just warrior.

[A]

I'm just warrior. Stabbing people in the face.

[B]

Small talk. Your siloed small talk.

[A]

I mean, Morgan, be honest. If Nicole just jumped on into it, do you think that people on the team would worry that she doesn't care about them personally?

[C]

Nicole does jump right into the agenda.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

And so she doesn't care about people.

[C]

Personally and she doesn't care.

[B]

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[C]

Think that kind of the explanation number one that you outlined, Jason, like, normally, me and the other members of our team will join the call a little bit earlier. And so we are kind of like chatting a little bit about the weekends because Nicole's not on yet. Nicole normally drives the agenda for that call. So the experience is sometimes we'll be talking about something and Nicole will join and I'll say, oh, Nicole, like, we were just talking about how, you know, I, whatever this weekend. And Nicole will be like, okay, awesome. Like, hope everyone had a good weekend. Like, here's what we're doing next. I don't think anybody has their feelings hurt about that. I, I don't think that anyone on our team feels like you don't care about them because of that. I mean, has anyone told you that they want you to check in with them personally more? No.

[B]

But I think when I don't, there is a weird vibe. And I think it's like, is she in a bad mood? Does she hate me? But I think that that is across the board because I've heard my husband talk about that too, when he has had, you know, big town hall meetings with, you know, a lot of employees. They sort of pay attention to every word and micro expression to see, you know, if they can get clues for how they're doing or how the company is doing or things like that. So I think that, you know, employees can read into a lot of that regardless. But I have clearly spent more time than Jason worrying about this when I could be using that cognitive load to do other things.

[A]

And possibly that is the most gendered part of this whole thing is who is worrying and who isn't.

[B]

Yeah, I, I for sure worry more than you.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, I think that is a very, very fair statement. I confirm the. From, From a warrior to a warrior. I confirm. And so here is now theory number three. Theory number three is less of a statement and more of a question, which is, is the implied contrast also true? So this is a filter that I like to put on any kind of statement, which is, if you're making this statement, then you're also saying that the contrast of the statement is true too. But is that actually true? So in this case, if we're saying, is there something about women run or liberal feminism run workspaces that, that, that are counterproductive or something? Well then can we look at the opposite of it and say, oh, these men run workplaces that are, that are missing that liberal feminine or whatever, you know, like, are they much more productive? Because that would be the implied contrast. This, this is the bad way to do it. So that must be the better way to do it. And here I am here to report having worked at many male dominated places. I mean I worked at Men's Health, it was almost entirely men. And actually an entrepreneur, I'm very frequently in calls either with Leadership in Entrepreneur or when we have partnerships with other companies where it's just men on the call. Just men. And I am here to report that they function exactly the same. They just do. They function exactly the same. We have, there's a CPG Fast Track, which is a company that I co founded. There are five co founders, four of them are men. And the CEO is one of the men. His name is Dave. And Dave starts every team call, including one that I had this morning, by asking everyone to go around and share a personal best and a professional best. And I have to say I love this, like I, I love this thing that he does here at the beginning because it gives us time to connect outside of like Slack and just the, the transactionalness of running a business together. And, and so I, I enjoy it. I like hearing everybody's personal best and professional bests. And I guess it's like it's a structured version of this otherwise loose chitchat, but it's essentially accomplishing the exact same thing. There's a, there's a company that entrepreneur partners with and I've been on so many calls with them and it's me and Bill, who's the president of Entrepreneur, and then these like two or three people from that other company and they're all men. So it's all men on the call. And it always starts with the guy who leads the company that we're partnering with going one by one and asking them how, how you're like feeling today. That's what he asks. He's like, how are you feeling today? So, so this is happening in male spaces too. And I don't think it's because we like let women in. I think it's just because people understand that building great teams requires not just having good talent, but also making sure that you're on the same page as that talent and you do a better job of connecting with and understanding the people that you work with, if you know a little bit about them. And I think that's the end of it. So I don't. I just don't believe in the implied contrast here. I just don't think that this is a true statement about how things used to be or how things would be otherwise. Like if. If letting feelings into a workplace made workplaces worse. And that is a dominant part of today's workplace, which is the thing that's implied in this article, that then, therefore, companies from an earlier generation would have been more successful and there would have been a stronger economy of innovation back then than now. And I think that that is patently false. That's just not true. We have a very strong culture of innovation. We've built the world's largest companies ever to be seen on planet Earth in this generation with this kind of culture. So it just doesn't make sense to me that we've done something that has ruined workplace culture if it is succeeding.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

All right, well, Nicole, can I. Can I get a commitment from you as a warrior in training, which is I want you to. I want you to start the next meeting exactly as it sounds like you do, which is that you just get down to business, and then afterwards, I want you to think, I don't give a crap about anyone's weekend and I don't care.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Repeat it back to me.

[B]

No, I do. Do you really don't give a shit?

[A]

No. It's so boring. It's like caring about somebody's dream. I don't care about your dream. It's uninteresting. Let's get back to work.

[B]

Like their actual dream at night?

[A]

Yeah. When someone's like, I had the craziest dream. That's awesome. I don't care about that at all. Why would I care about that? No, we have.

[B]

I just think sometimes I worry that if you don't care about somebody's literal nighttime dream, then the perception is you don't care about their metaphorical dream, their goals and their wishes and their life's ambition.

[A]

You care about that because they're on the team and you're going to talk about work that you're going to do together. And that's the thing that matters. I don't get.

[B]

Do people work harder for people they like or for people who care about their nighttime dreams?

[A]

I mean, that probably comes down to the individual and who you hire. But I. Look, I've spent. I spent a long time as a leader not caring about what somebody's weekend was like, and I'm sticking to it. And Nicole and Morgan, don't you dare tell me what happened over your weekend. I don't give a crap. That is the warrior mindset, and I'm sticking with it.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

All right, have a good weekend. Bye.

[A]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

[B]

Pfeiffer, and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. If you want some help, email our [e-mail] for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagramoney News and TikTokoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

[A]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[B]

All right, well, talk to you soon.