Jason Pfeiffer (2:37)

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

Nicole Lapin (2:42)

And it starts now.

Jason Pfeiffer (2:44)

Mari, welcome to Help Wanted.

Mari (2:47)

Thank you for having me.

Jason Pfeiffer (2:48)

Thanks for being here. So, Mari, what's on your mind?

Mari (2:50)

I wanted to get your thoughts on what we can do when we attract other people's envy and are surrounded or encounter people who want to bring us down and aren't happy for our success. There's a lot of conversation about how not to be envious of other people, but I haven't found a lot of conversation around what we can do when we are on the receiving end of envy, especially when it comes to success and promotion and making more money than other people.

Jason Pfeiffer (3:18)

And you're talking in the royal we here. Is this something you experience yourself?

Mari (3:23)

Yes, I've definitely had personal experiences of it. I think some people call it Tall Poppy syndrome. I experienced this when I received a promotion at work. The people, obviously my coworkers, weren't thrilled with it because I was chosen and that was something that they were also vying for. So that was one of my first experiences of this sense of Tall Poppy syndrome. And the effects of it were not just that people fell away, but they were gossiping. I was being excluded. So I, I felt the effects of it in a really real concrete way. And the problem came up because now I was in a more managerial position and so they were not happy that I was now their boss and I didn't really have the skills or resources or even understanding how to navigate this. And it did feel like punishment for having gotten something I wanted or for having been successful.

Nicole Lapin (4:14)

Let me ask you a honest question. You might not have experienced this exactly in the reverse where somebody else on your team was promoted, but were you genuinely not feeling miffed or competitive or envious of the other person?

Mari (4:35)

I've definitely felt it, but I have enough sort of self awareness to not go around and do something about it. I've definitely felt, oh, I wanted that and that person got it. But then there's A sense of, I'm not going to trash them or not take or not work alongside them. It's kind of like, okay, game over. We all kind of have to fall into our spots. But I've definitely felt it. And I've also tried to look at what they were doing that I didn't have. And sometimes, yeah, there are experiences that I've had where I felt like, oh, that was unfair, that they got that because they knew someone or whatever. But I've never really brought them down. Or even if I think I've had friends who've had, like, really great success and I've shown up and been like, I'm really happy for you. Even though inside I was a little bit envious, but I know I can show up and be happy for them and not make that about me. It's definitely a common human experience. But I think there's a line when you go around doing something about it or like the. The thing that I've experienced is more like passive aggressive behavior, kind of snarky comments, being excluded from things. And so it feels a bit unfair or not. Something I know how to navigate.

Nicole Lapin (5:37)

Thank you for being honest about that because it absolutely is a natural feeling to have. And I think you hit on exactly the crux of what the real question is, like, what to do about that feeling. Because it wouldn't be natural to not have some sort of feelings of jealousy or envy or whatever. I think we would all be lying to ourselves if we said we were stoked that somebody else got the award that we were up for. And so what to do about it is the question. So it sounds like you were, can you give us more color on what was going on with the coworker situation? What did they actually do besides gossip or.

Mari (6:18)

I think one person came up and was like, congrats, you know, people are not happy. People aren't sharing in my joy or in my success. I sort of felt that crunch. I was asked to collect a whole bunch of research. And so, like, it came in very slowly, like they were not getting things in on time. They're not happy that I'm in charge. And so the response was lukewarm to. Towards having to get back to me on a certain deadline. And they were all trickling in very slowly. And then sort of the lunchtime, you know, oh, we already had lunch. Oh, usually we all go for lunch. I see everyone coming back from lunch and I was not invited.

Jason Pfeiffer (6:54)

This is some real, like, seventh grade nightmare stuff.

Nicole Lapin (6:58)

Yeah.

Mari (6:58)

And that's the thing is I'M not in seventh grade, so I don't know now to just ignore them because now I have to engage. And some of these people are genuinely good people, but I've obviously triggered or made them upset. And I think the power dynamics are a bit different now. And that adjustment makes me feel like you kind of start to doubt yourself. Maybe this is not a good idea. It's costing me a lot of connection.

Nicole Lapin (7:23)

Did you ever have a straight up conversation with them about it? Did you address the elephant in the room, saying, hey, we know this happened any given Sunday vibes. We're all really talented. There's a lot of X factors that we don't know about. Or did you just ignore it?

Mari (7:37)

I definitely ignored it because I didn't know how to handle it in a way that was constructive. How do I bring you all on board? Why do you hate me? This is not right. You kind of start to regress a little bit because you're like, we have to get the job done. I think I definitely did not have a conversation because I didn't know how to lead that conversation to basically say, grow up or don't hate me. Like, this is also deserved on my end. But I think that the things I learned is how to make people feel safe. Maybe they feel like they're not getting the accolades or acknowledgement that they need. And I sometimes feel like it's not my job because there's even people higher up above us. But that is part of the learning process, how to make people feel safe. But it wasn't a conversation. I knew how to lead because I didn't really know what to say other than, you're being unfair.

Jason Pfeiffer (8:26)

So I want to come back to that moment where you said, it's not my job, because I think that actually, possibly it is your job. But first, let me ask you this. Before the promotion, would you say you were one of the crew? Were you, like, fully in whatever crew this is that you are definitely not a part of now?

Mari (8:49)

It wasn't so cliquey, but there were definitely like 10 or 15 of us that were always on the same page or always working together. We were at the same level, and so we had to work together. And now I was no longer a part of that team. We were no longer teammates. And there are promotions in the company, so it wasn't like a thing that's never happened before. But for some reason, I felt really singled out because I think I've seen other people got promotions, and it was all very smooth and people were happy that they were now, and I was not necessarily leading them. I was not signed to a different department. I just wasn't going to be as involved there. So we were definitely a team and worked together. And now I would no longer be involved or I would have 30, 40 people I'm overseeing. So I'm no longer in this sort of smaller pod of people working together.

Jason Pfeiffer (9:41)

What has been your emotional processing of this? Do you go home and think about this at night? Is this a weight that you carry around?

Mari (9:49)

Thank you for asking the question, because some of it is intellectual. Because if this is going to cost me, I don't care what people think. Right? That's the intellectual answer. I'm here to do my work, do a great job. I'm anchored to a different goal and vision. So if that means losing people, you lose people. That's my intellectual thing. Go for the success. And if people don't like it, who cares? Do your best. But the emotional aspect of it is a totally different experience because I feel like I'm being punished. And it's really hard, I think, for me to, like. I don't want to upset anyone. I don't want to make anybody unhappy. I'm a really inclusive person. And so it has weighed on me a lot. Not just at work, but in other areas of my life. In terms of, like, friendships, is this person going to be jealous or. And I think the sort of collective conversation is then, these are not your people and these are not your friends. But there is, I think, an emotional cost. And that cost is connection. Success is lonely. Success is isolating. People aren't going to join you. And I think in one of blog posts you had talked about your people, and then there's not your people. And a lot of. And I The sense of these people were my people and now they're not my people. And the next available people, they're not just like, waiting. It's not like they're instantly available. So it is very lonely. And it makes you doubt yourself. And it almost makes you feel like, is the success worth it if it's going to cost me? And it's. I think it's a collective thing. Like, it's not one person who's annoyed with you. It's a group kind of exile. You're kind of kicked out and you haven't done anything wrong. Right? Like, you've not done anything. And so I think emotionally it's really hard to want the success if it's going to cost you connection. And I think sometimes it leads to self Sabotage. Because I just don't want to make people unhappy. And I know intellectually it sounds ridiculous, but I think emotionally there's a sense of I've upset people who I love, who I enjoy, who I hang out with after work, and I have. Those connections are not so strong. And so there is an emotional component to it that's. That is. That weighs heavier, I think, than the intellectual side of things.

Jason Pfeiffer (12:00)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (12:00)

And I think it's important to know there's not just another group of people waiting in the wings, because my first instinct is this tall poppy syndrome. Go get another field. Like another poppy field. But it's easier said than done. And so in that interim period, it's certainly lonely. But I'm really curious about why you felt ill equipped to have a conversation. And I agree with Jason that I do think it's your responsibility as a leader to open up that dialogue. And sometimes a lot of those feelings of passive aggression or how it manifests with the lunch or the comments or the whatever, is because there's, like, something festering that needs to be said. And you now, as a new leader, are the one that I think should facilitate that.

Jason Pfeiffer (12:49)

Yeah. And I'll add to that. And then, Mario, I'd love for you to dig into that. The reason I said it was your job is because it's important to understand that in an organization, whenever there is any kind of change, the first question that everybody has is, is this good or bad? For me, that's. And. And that's not a bad question. That should be everybody's first question. Is this good or bad? For me, this is the reason why when there's any kind of reorganization or anything that happens, people start freaking out. And the reason is because they spent all of this time investing in their position as they know it, and they are worried that in some new regime or under some new leader or whatever, that they will lose progress or they will lose status or they will lose safety or something. And that's why when I talk to leaders in, like, a consulting role about how to help their teams navigate change, I say the very first thing that you need to do whenever you introduce something new is you need to make it extremely clear really fast how this is good specifically for everybody on the team, this is going to change. And as a result, this is what you now get to do, or this is now what you will do, or this is why we're going to really value you on this. Because without that, everyone just gets scared. And then that fear is going to manifest itself in all sorts of negative ways. And in this case, one of the theories I have, and I have a list of them, but one of the theories I have is that when you got promoted, there was an opportunity among this group to think, oh, yes, one of us just got a bump up and that's good for us. But then because you didn't engage them on it, they thought, oh, no, maybe this is bad for us. Maybe she's peace and out and we are left behind, and that doesn't feel good. And even if you couldn't do anything because you got moved into a different group and there's nothing you can do for this, like, group of people, but to have created some kind of open dialogue or help them feel like, hey, now that I'm in this role, that stuff that we used to complain about, I can bring that to whoever's attention now that's really exciting. Let me figure out how to be helpful now, because I still feel part of this group. And those things that used to frustrate us still frustrate me. And I want to be able to help solve that. And to just be able to introduce that kind of idea might have given them the feeling that you are now an ally, a step up instead of leaving a question mark for them, which then they're going to fill in with negativity. That is just a hypothesis. But I'm curious what your feeling was and what drove it.

Mari (15:26)

I think it's a great question and it illuminates something I didn't see, right, that everyone like, because I too, am thinking about myself. I'm not thinking about how my promotion affects a group of people that I have less interaction with now because they're less and less a part of projects that I'm running and things like that. It's, I think, a great way of putting myself in the shoes of other people, which is not something that I was doing. And I think I was hesitant to do that because I felt like the thing that needs to change. I can't make you like me, right? I can't make you be happy with the situation if you're not. Like, if this is something that you're not willing to be happy about. And so I think I was looking at it from the perspective of it's not my job to make you like me. That's the way that I was looking at it. But if I look at it, how can I make this change? How can I see myself as a part of something larger is what it is, right? Because I didn't see Myself as a part of, oh, I'll take your grievances to seniors. And I didn't see that before because I guess I also didn't see myself. I think that's a part of leadership, too, is to see yourself as representative of even things that you've outgrown, to see yourself as someone who's pulling other people up. So I guess the towel poppy has to encourage some growth somewhere.

Jason Pfeiffer (16:51)

But also, I really love that distinction that you just recognized between, is this about you? Or I can't make people like me. But it. I don't think it's that at all. If you consider what the premise of most workplace relationships are, and I mean relationships loosely, just the way in which you interact with colleagues, or all these people are getting lunch together, these are not lifelong relationships. These are relationships that are created and defined by contextual circumstances. So they are all bonding over shared frustrations and responsibilities and so on. And you're not a part of that group anymore. You're part of another group. And it could have been possible to maintain some kind of relationship with them, but their relationship with each other is in some large way defined by the very specific circumstances of their work and their position in that work. And if one of them left the job, they would probably lose touch with everybody else, because this isn't personal and these relationships aren't personal. And the way that they're feeling about you isn't personal. It is all about the context of the role. So that I have found, as I have risen the ranks or whatever, that it's been helpful for me to just think now, for example, as the editor in chief of a magazine, like, I know that if we're in some kind of office social environment, you know, like if everyone goes out for drinks, which doesn't happen very often anymore, but used to, the junior staffers don't want me around, or they don't want me around for very long because they're going to bond with each other because they have more in common than they do with me. And also, they're like different stakes with me. They have to watch what they say around me, even though I don't care, but they're going to care. So I hang out for a little bit, and then what do I end up doing? I end up with the smaller group of senior people because the context of our roles brings us together into this relationship that also, again, isn't actually all that personal. It's just circumstantial. So when you think about it that way and you just remove all the personal from it. This isn't about you at all. This is like you, the Widget@ level 5 and they're the widgets at level 4. And the level 4 widgets have their own gravity towards each other and they're oriented around a specific sun. And you're now like at a different gravity. And like, then you just start to think, okay, how do I, as this widget inside of this system interact with and create some kind of balance with the widgets at the other levels?

Mari (19:31)

Yeah, I like the idea of depersonalizing it insofar that it's not about me as a person and my personality and more, if it was another person, they would still hate that person. That's the dynamic of the. That's the function of the system.

Jason Pfeiffer (19:49)

Unless that person went way out of their way to make these people feel like they were going to better.

Mari (19:53)

And that's on me, is to not see my. I think that's where a lot of it comes from, is to not see myself as connected or like representative of their wants and desires and needs. And I think that is something like I need to think more about is how can I have them answer the question that this is also good for them? It's. Well, yeah, I think a lot about personal relationships too. Right. Like, how do you do that? And I. You're. What you're saying about the work situation is totally correct in that those are the roles and representations that we fit into. It does bleed into my personal life too. I think I meant like, even in dating. Right. Like, I've had a guy who say, you make more money than me and I don't know what to do, how to help that person because I know over time, like, there's going to be ups and downs and I might be unemployed and you're going to make a bunch of money, but it feels really personal, like you're punishing me for having success.

Jason Pfeiffer (20:47)

I'm going to guess what Nicole would say about that, which is that what you do for that person is that you run away from them because they have just revealed a deep insecurity that's not going to be resolved and you don't want to be a part of it. Nicole, am I right?

Mari (20:58)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (20:58)

I think there are two different scenarios. What's going on in your personal life and how to handle this work situation. But in both, I will say the line is that you can only control yourself.

Jason Pfeiffer (21:15)

Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back.

Nicole Lapin (21:19)

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to Bring in some extra cash. But I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co host network, which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co host@airbnb.com host Jason, have you ever overdrafted?

Jason Pfeiffer (22:21)

Hasn't everybody?

Nicole Lapin (22:22)

I mean, I certainly have. I famously overdrafted on a $7 latte and got hit with a $35 fee.

Jason Pfeiffer (22:28)

Oof. That's the worst.

Nicole Lapin (22:29)

The actual worst. But Jason, I do have a solution for this. It is Chime. A chime checking account has fee free overdraft up to 200 bucks and a whole bunch of other game changing features that I love like Chime checking accounts have no maintenance fees and you can get paid up to two days early with direct deposit. You should check it out Jason. It's@chime.com MNN. Ooh. I am into it and you will love this. Chime is making it easier to support friends on their financial journey and one of the ways that they're doing this is by allowing eligible members to give complimentary boosts to increase a friend's spot me limit. That means that you can help your friends fee free overdraft limit. So if you need a hand, Jason, I got you.

Mari (23:10)

Oof.

Jason Pfeiffer (23:11)

Friends helping friends make progress. I love that.

Nicole Lapin (23:13)

I do too. So why not make your fall finances a little greener? Open your Chime account in just two minutes@chime.com MNN that's chime.com MNN as in MoneyNews Network. Chime feels like Progress Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Booths are available to eligible CHIME members enrolled in SPOTME and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Jason Pfeiffer (23:43)

Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

Nicole Lapin (23:47)

You can't control what the other person thinks or does. The only thing that you have control over in these relationships, personal or work ones, how you respond to it. And with the work one, I think that it is addressed to occupant like it would have been whoever that is. But you can take control of how you handle it and be really proud of how you do it. And maybe it would be helpful if you wanted to role play. You said that you didn't know how to have a conversation like that. Maybe we can try it. Like we could be mean girl, mean guy number one and two or something at work and we could just practice with that.

Mari (24:26)

Yeah, that would be great. I would say. I've noticed that every time I've reached out to you, I don't get a response as quickly as I have before. I've noticed that I've reached out to you guys for lunch and it turns out you guys have already had lunch. But it hasn't really like happened before. I've asked for things on time. I've noticed that they trickle in very slowly when I have to then get it to somebody else on time. So if I don't hear from you on time, I'm then delayed in getting it to someone else. And we all know the supply chain of information. And I've noticed that these things have happened since I've gotten this promotion or have been put in this role. And I know that things are different, but I do want to acknowledge that I'm noticing things are different in our interaction and I'm curious about where it's coming from. Or am I just seeing things? Maybe I'm making something up that's not there. But it is feeling a little bit like things have shifted since I got this new role.

Nicole Lapin (25:25)

Let's try this one more time because what I want to say is just, well, fuck you, you got more money and I'm doing the best I can to something like that. But what if you changed, like how you approached it and did more I statements and came from more of an empathetic. Sure. Instead of you did this. You didn't send me this. It's just like any relationship. Right.

Mari (25:46)

I'M feeling like I noticed. Like, these are the things that I've noticed instead of the accusatory vibe, because your response is, like, exactly what they're going to say. And that's what I totally. I don't know what to tell you.

Jason Pfeiffer (25:58)

You know, if it was me, what I would have done is I would have gaslit you, and I would have been like, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. We just got lunch. I don't know. Were you not around that day? Like, I would have gaslit you. And what I was hearing here is that what you were ultimately trying to do was address a personal dynamic, but.

Nicole Lapin (26:19)

You were also addressing, like, the symptoms and not the cause.

Jason Pfeiffer (26:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. What I was thinking was, where Mario's going here is, hey, let's talk about our personal relationship. I want to focus on what went wrong with our personal relationship. I have this gut feeling that's not the place to go with this. That the place to go with this is, hey, how do we create a really good professional relationship, which is, like, focusing on slightly different things and also just letting some other things go, like lunch. Who cares? But deadlines definitely care. And so I kind of want Mari to go in a place where it's about creating a really good, healthy, professional relationship and setting aside, like, feelings. Is that where your gut was?

Nicole Lapin (27:02)

Yeah, I think with that feedback, Mari, let's try it one more time and tell me, like, how you want to have this conversation, too.

Mari (27:10)

Time, place is, like, from a professional, managerial role. I would not like. The thing is, what I'm noticing is the elephant in the room. I'm being treated like crap since I got a promotion. All right? The professional me would be like, how can you know? We need to get the deadlines in on time. What do you guys need in order for that to happen? And I wouldn't even go to this whole other, oh, God, I'm feeling off balance ever since I've gotten a promotion. And so I don't know how to acknowledge that something has shifted and we need to improve it. All I can say is what I've noticed. This is what I'm observing, and I don't know why that's happening. And I need. We need to figure this out together. And so from a professional side, I would not even acknowledge what I'm feeling or what I've noticed. I would just be like, these are the pain points, and what do you guys need in order for those to improve? But I'm also not acknowledging some of the feelings that they might be having about safety or money or anger or resentment. So I'm not sure what the sweet spot is in terms of. I've noticed that you're not happy and I need the work on time. I'm not really sure where to start. I can separate it, but then I'm not acknowledging the problem.

Nicole Lapin (28:25)

I don't think you have to separate the emotion completely. I think that starting with the sense of safety and coming to it from a place of empathy and not sympathy. Sympathy and empathy are different. You don't feel bad for them. You understand and you can hear them and they have a space so it doesn't metastasize more.

Mari (28:47)

But I think using a question I would ask is, how have things changed for you since I've been in a different role? Right. Like, how are things different for you? And. And I guess I'd be looking for them to answer whether they're better or worse. Right. Is it better or worse for you that I'm in this other role?

Nicole Lapin (29:06)

I would put the fingers away. Ideally, I would just open up a dialogue. And sometimes the best way to do that is to just, like, ask a very basic question and let the other person talk. Like, how are you feeling? Things are changing around here. It's weird for me too.

Mari (29:26)

I guess I could open with sharing. This new role has been really stressful. It's really different. I miss you guys. It's. These are the changes and how they've affected me, and these are some of the challenges that I'm having in this new role. How are things with you guys on your side?

Nicole Lapin (29:42)

I think that's a. The better way to go. I. I don't often think that people have a lot of compassion for people who make more money than them or got something they didn't get that they wanted and they're having, like, a hard time. But I understand where the impetus is coming from and. But I'm not sure if that really underlines this idea of what are our goals with this conversation. Our goals are to say, team, we're in this together. You are safe here. Your money is safe here. I'm going to go and advocate for you. This type of vibe. Right. That's what success from this conversation would be.

Mari (30:20)

Yeah. I think from an action point, I would try to find things to include them in on, but that's not part of a conversation. Right. Because if I'm thinking of, like, how can I represent them or make it good for them too, my mind goes to what are things I can do to include them into those conversations or those actions. But if I were, I. It's harder to be like, you're sitting across the table from me and this is what I'm going to say to you. And I think of what if that was someone else in my shoes, I would be really glad that they're taking the time to have this conversation with me. When they no longer need to have that conversation. I think I would be like, thanks for still thinking of me. I'm still here. And if I was in their shoes, I guess I would want space to talk about what that change meant for me or like how things were different. But I. I'm still stuck in that place where you're like, yeah, that person makes more money than me. I don't really care to share with them how they're gonna to share with them what's going on in my life when it doesn't. Or in on my side of the department when it's not going to affect them anymore. Yeah, I'm not really sure how that conversation would go. I think I would be glad that they're still engaged with me and consider spending that time to get to know what's going on on this side. I might construct avenues for conversation so we're not totally cut off from each other and so that those conversations are still happening so that I'm not taken further and further away. But I'm not sure, like, how I would have that conversation one to one, or even me and a group of people to address the elephant in the room, that they're unhappy about something.

Jason Pfeiffer (31:54)

So I have a hypothesis and that is to say something like this, let's wait until there is a business purpose, which it sounds like there often is. Let's say somebody is late on getting you something where it's dribbling in and so you do whatever. It's actually just for context here, like, how would you be interacting with these people? Are you guys in the same office? Is this remote and zoom. What would the actual interaction be?

Mari (32:21)

It's like we're in the office a few days a week. I see them less now, but there's a lot on email. Like, I need to reach out to that. Like, it's clear that they have to get this, these like notes and research into me by this day. Yeah, set that deadline and then it doesn't come in and I. But I'm collecting it from 20 different people. And I noticed that the 10 from the old department are like really slow.

Jason Pfeiffer (32:45)

Like, oh, that's let's pick one from the 10 who are slow. Maybe it's the person who could reasonably be said to be the lead or something. There's some reason to talk to that person. Okay, here's my hypothesis. You guys tell me. Nicole, if you tell me if you think I'm right. Mari, tell me if you think this would sound comfortable coming out of your mouth. I would say this. I'd say, hey, this is awkward. Let me just acknowledge that. Because obviously, we both know you and I work together in the same department, and now I have this role, and now you are, like, reporting this thing or sending this thing to me. And so the dynamics here have changed. That's very obvious. I don't know if it's awkward for you, but it's certainly awkward for me because I still think of you guys as colleagues. And now I have this different position where I am, like, assigning something and then you're filing it to me, and you filed it late, which means that my managerial responsibility now is to ask you where it is and try to figure out how to not get it late. So let me just acknowledge that I have to do this because it's my job, but also, it's kind of weird. So I'd love to know if you have anything to say about that. But also, really, I would love to know why it's late and if there's anything that I can do to support you or if there's anything that's wrong right now that is holding up the delivery of the work. And let's start there. And the reason that I said it like that is because we're doing a couple things. We're introducing the awkwardness, right? So we're getting the elephant into the room, but we're not forcing them to engage with it in ways that they might not be comfortable engaging with it.

Nicole Lapin (34:33)

Right.

Jason Pfeiffer (34:33)

It's different from saying, hey, I noticed you don't invite me to lunch. Why is that? At which point they have to come up with some answer that might be true or might be a lie or whatever. They're not expecting it. But now you're just putting it on the table. And look, if you want to address it, that'd be great. I'm going to start by addressing it. And the way I'm going to address it is just to say, I recognize that this is awkward, and it is awkward for me. Now, that also dances around this thing that Nicole had very rightly pointed out, which is you now, or did before, whatever, you make more money than they do and you're higher up and trying to draw sympathy out of them for your plight is going to be really hard. They may not have that, but everybody can recognize that, like a situation is awkward. And so I think saying it and acknowledging it and then having them realize like, oh, you think this too will at least start to maybe clear some of the air and allow for an interaction on that experience. But you're focusing the conversation on the practical thing, which is the missed deadline. And you're framing it in a way in which, like, hey, how can I help? Is something wrong here? My job actually now is to get things to happen. And part of that is to support the people who are doing the things that need to happen. So I'm. I need to do that job. And again, awkward because of the dynamic. We both understand it. Happy to talk about that. But also how can I support you in getting this thing done? And it creates a safe place to focus, which is on the tactical thing that's also work oriented. We're not going to talk about who's not inviting who to lunch because that's wishy washy. But then it's also in a safe way that shows where you're coming from, but doesn't try to beg sympathy. And in starts possibly the conversation, which may take a while. This is a, this could be a knot that will take some time to pull apart, but at least it begins it by introducing it in a roughly safe way. What do we think of that?

Mari (36:28)

I think it's a good and soft approach. I didn't realize. And what I appreciate that you pointed out is that it's not a thing that's going to be resolved necessarily in a conversation one time. Like, this is going to be a process and that's going to take sort of repeated, soft, gentle approach, you know, scooting someone along very slowly in order for that dynamic to feel comfortable and productive and generative. Like it's not a conversation. One conversation isn't going to fix the issue that this is a dynamic. That it's. The adaptation to someone in a different role is going to take time. And leading them towards that is again, which I didn't realize. Yeah, that's on me. That's another thing. Like I can't just expect people. I, yeah, I feel a little bit like miffed. Like now I have to do this too.

Jason Pfeiffer (37:21)

That recognition that this is going to be a process now allows you to approach it in a way differently than the first time you responded to Nicole's prompt. Because what you did that first time is you tried to make it like an omnibus bill, Right? You just tried to, like, stuff everything into it and pass it all at once. That's not how these things work. And it is especially not how they work when there are lots of other people involved. Because you have to know that if you pull one of this group of 10 people out and talk to them, the first thing they're going to do is go back to the other nine and report this conversation. So you need to give them something good to report. And the things that are going to be good to report are like, you are aware that this is awkward, and also, you asked how to help, and they're going to bring that back, and some of them are going to be like, you believe her? But it's going to start to soften up whatever is hardened over there.

Nicole Lapin (38:13)

I think those two points are really key. Addressing the awkwardness and that you feel it. So your instinct was to share some of your stress. And I think the instinct to share is right. Maybe the object of what you wanted to share was perhaps misplaced because of lack of compassion on their end, potentially because of the dynamics. But sharing that you find this to be awkward, I think is very humanizing and something that can be relatable. And I think that you bringing it up first is really important because you are now the leader, but you don't need to go into, like, leader roles. So I'm going to tell you what to do or whatever you think you need to do. I think just being really honest about this awkwardness is really important. And also saying how you can help. I think it's one of the great phrases that you can say in business in general, but especially as a leader, like, how can I help you? How can I support you? Because the connotation there is that you feel like that person might need support, but you're not doing it in an accusatory way. But somebody's asking if you need support because they can feel that you're struggling or there's something off or something going on.

Mari (39:23)

I think it's also a great approach because it's an opening to address some of the grievances that they might be experiencing. That's also an opening for me to be like, oh, your team has these five other things to do. That's also another thing I could bring up as to why you guys are late. And so that there's an opening there for me to, again, be the representative of whatever their issues and grievances are by asking, what is it that you guys that I can do that to make it easier for you to get things in on. In on time. I think it's also. I didn't realize how cranky I was being about it. Like, I want to be good at my job. I don't want to have to deal with the sort of softer relational side of. That's why I'm good at what I do is because I'm focused on that and not on the sort of like relational and making sure everyone's happy. But I, when I got the promotion I was like, oh crap. Like this is a whole other side effect. I did not anticipate. And I have the skills for this job. Like I don't have the skills for navigating the dynamics of what happens when you're really good at your job. And so that was something that I think I see now is part of the growth. Right. That is part of the promotion.

Jason Pfeiffer (40:34)

Yeah.

Mari (40:35)

Is to find a way or to see. Because I just didn't even understand it. I was just like, this is silly and ridiculous and stressful and so to recognize that that's going to be a part of growth is bringing people along with you, even the ones that don't want to go. And that too is leadership. And yeah, I feel a bit cranky about it. But it's that I think widening the lens on what that involves what that promotion or what success or making more money or whatever. Like part. It's not just about the thing that you did well. It's about all the other side effects that come along with it. That if you don't handle or have the skills for start to undermine the growth. And I think it's important to have those conversations. And it. I think it's also important that it's a process. I want to just get this done and out of the way and move on and to. And what I see now is that that's not necessarily going to fix it or address it. This is a slow moving shape that we now all have to fall into.

Nicole Lapin (41:34)

Yeah, you have to have hard conversations. Tall poppies have hard conversations. Just goes along with the tall poppy role.

Mari (41:43)

Yeah, that's part of being tall.

Jason Pfeiffer (41:45)

It's part of leadership. Stick around. Help wanted. We'll be right back.

Nicole Lapin (41:55)

So recently I started looking at my wellness routine and I wanted to see if there was any way I could enhance my results. I looked at my vitamins and I realized they were not as clean as I had thought. The list of ingredients was long with things like gelatin and artificial flavors, which obviously have no added value and can cause some digestive issues. After doing some research, I came across Vimirgy. Vimirgy makes liquid vitamins and supplements that use clean ingredients and are not loaded with unnecessary fillers and binders like citric acid. And because they're liquid, they absorb faster than tablets, gummies and capsules. And they're much easier to take if you have difficulty swallowing your pills, which I always have. It's a whole process. I've tried putting the water in first and then the vitamins and just. And unlike multivitamins, you can actually customize your vitamin routine so you only take what you need and nothing you don't. They're honestly so easy to integrate into my day. I just add them into my morning juice or smoothie and at night in my tea before I go to bed. Right now, Vimurgy is offering my listeners free shipping using the code MNN and you can save up to 12% with their mix and save program. That's vimurgy.com v I m e r g y.com with code MNN, as in money News Network. Try them today. I can't wait to hear what you think and more importantly, how you feel.

Jason Pfeiffer (43:14)

Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. This is the thing that everybody hates about leadership. Welcome to it, which is that as you move up, you have to become more and more of a manager of people. And being a manager of people has its rewards, but it also can be an incredible pain in the ass because now you're responsible for a lot of different egos and desires and it's not always fun. But the important thing to remember is a lot of this stuff takes time. And therefore the best time to start is now. Let's say that this thing that we've been talking about is really, and I'm just pulling a number out here, but let's say that this is really a six month process. Six months until it all just goes away. Which is not to say that it's six months of deep, hard conversations. It's like it starts now and it gets a little better. It gets a little better and then eventually everybody feels fine. So if you start now, then it's done in six months and if you start three months from now, that it's done in nine months. So might as well just start now.

Mari (44:19)

Yeah. And I think, like, it's a part of acknowledging, oh, this is awkward. Right. I have to humanize myself first. I don't like being someone who feels awkward in any situation. Nobody does, because that's like when you see yourself as competent and then you're like, ooh, this is not an area that I have much competence in. It takes you for a bit of a loop because you're like, but I'm good at things and I've had hard conversations. So now I'm encountering a situation that I actually don't. I'm out of my depth here. There's no book on this. And so again, reaching out to you guys is helpful because there's a lot of creativity in approaching this insofar that, oh, yeah, this is something that has to be dealt with and can be maneuvered and takes there. And I think the thing I like about it is that I can lead that. Right. I didn't recognize that at first is, oh, I have to steer this ship. That's going to come to me like, that's on me, that's not on them. And that it's easy to be the underling and undermine the work. It's much harder to be the one who's expecting you to hand things in on time. And so that leadership position requires a little bit of vision. And that takes time. But it's also, yeah, awkward. And I don't want to be the person who feels awkward. It's hard to be in a senior position or in a position of leadership. And I have awkward feelings.

Jason Pfeiffer (45:42)

Here is a bold statement that I'm not totally sure I'm right about because I have spent only 30 seconds thinking about it, which is that awkwardness is actually the great leveler, because everybody feels awkward and everybody is relieved when the other person acknowledges that they feel awkward. And that is allowed of basically everybody at every level feels awkward. And therefore everybody understands that awkwardness does not negate competence. And when you hear, especially from somebody who is more senior or more successful or more something than you, that they are feeling awkward too. That it has a kind of stars, they're just like us impact, where you're like, oh, you feel that too? Oh, thank God, because I feel really awkward right now. And then you can like both acknowledge and therefore let out the awkwardness, which is often the thing that's holding people back from having more meaningful conversations either at like, at level with each other or even at non level with each other because someone is lower and someone is higher in status. And so if awkwardness is the great leveler and everyone is actually feeling awkward, then there is literally zero downside and all upside to acknowledge that you're feeling awkward because it also doesn't negate whatever important conversation you have to have next. Nor does it make either party feel like the other party is unable to have that conversation. It's just that it's awkward. That's my theory. What do we think?

Nicole Lapin (47:23)

Yeah, the awkwardness is one of the great equalizers, like the subway or the flu. And I think as a leader you can namaste the awkwardness in me. You see the awkwardness in you. And I think it's a really nice humanizing way to break the awkward ice.

Mari (47:41)

I agree with all of what you've said insofar that, and I liked how you put it, awkwardness doesn't negate competency. I think when I think of the sort of sensation I think of uncomfortable, like for me, it's I. The word I would use is more this is uncomfortable for me because awkward. I feel like I don't really have the legs for this or don't have a lot of practice on this. But like uncomfortable for me feels like a more for me personally feels like that's what I would say. This is uncomfortable for me. I'm recognizing that there is something that I'm not totally like at ease with in this situation. There's something coming up that isn't like totally easy and comfortable for me. And so for me the word is more like this is uncomfortable.

Nicole Lapin (48:25)

Yeah, whatever the word is, as long as I think it connotes some self awareness, which I think is a really important attribute for anyone in business, but especially a leader. And I think that's being really self aware to say it's awkward, it's uncomfortable. Insert your own.

Mari (48:44)

And I think it also generates some sort of. You are asking to be seen as a human being. Right. Because leaders, we're at work professional, but we're also human. And so I think it is a sort of appropriate and acceptable way of saying I am also human and humanizing the endeavor. We're all here for a greater purpose. I want to acknowledge that in all of us, even if I do make more money than you, or you make less or whatever, the thing is I'm still a fan of all of these people. They're really good at what they do and I want to make sure that's still present in those dynamics that I do see all of that in them. And I think, yeah, I think sharing that using uncomfortable awkward as a sort of leveler, as an equalizer and then from there saying this is the sort of practical problem we're having does offer people a softer landing pad maybe to open up a little bit more. And I Think also if I do look at it as a process, that feels a lot more like there's more margin if they're not responsive right away or if they're like, yeah, whatever. No, nothing's the problem. I'm okay with that because I know this is going to have. This is. We're going to. I'm going to have to do this for another month or two or three again. And so that makes me less scared of their reaction because sometimes I'm like, they're just going to gaslight me. Or they're going to say, no, nothing's the problem. You're just seeing things like, we're fine. I was just having an off day. And so I think if I know that this is going to take a couple months of being shut down or I'm less scared of like, no, actually, it's okay because you're going to have to do this, like, for the next couple months, so.

Nicole Lapin (50:21)

Or maybe for the rest of your career.

Mari (50:23)

Yeah, why not?

Jason Pfeiffer (50:27)

Mari, terrible, terrible news. You have signed up for a whole career of awkward conversations. Aren't you glad you came on to help? Want it?

Mari (50:35)

Well, it's interesting if we look at it through the lens of that, like, what awkward conversations do you wish you would have had? What would life be like if you had all the conversations you weren't scared of having? I don't know. I think my life would be different.

Jason Pfeiffer (50:48)

Life would be better. Go have the awkward conversations. I feel like that's. That is the empowering statement here. Go have them.

Mari (50:56)

Because it's important. But it's also. We sit here and we're like, yeah, go have it. And the other person, non responsive doesn't care.

Nicole Lapin (51:03)

That's why you have to practice in the first place. A couple takes at this were.

Mari (51:07)

Yeah.

Nicole Lapin (51:08)

Not comfortable. They were a little awkward.

Mari (51:12)

They were awkward.

Jason Pfeiffer (51:15)

Well, I think we have your marching orders here. Go be awkward.

Mari (51:19)

Yeah. And I really do love the sort of benchmark of seeing the question of how is this good for the others? Because that expands the goodness that is possible for the others, whereas I wasn't looking at it that way. And I think that's important.

Nicole Lapin (51:33)

So we help. How do you feel?

Mari (51:35)

I feel like I have a new lens on it that I didn't have before. And when I have that lens and it's a wider lens, it's a more empathic lens, It's a lens of greater leadership. Right. So I have a different lens on myself, too. This is my job. This is an area of growth for me. Having awkward conversations I can say is an area of growth for me, like irrespective of how it affects others or whether they're happy with it or not. Identifying that this is going to be required of me and to not look at it as another thing that I have to do, but another aspect of myself that you get to do. Yeah, that is part of growth too, right? That is a part of growth.

Nicole Lapin (52:17)

Grow, poppy, grow.

Jason Pfeiffer (52:18)

Grow poppy, grow awkwardly. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

Nicole Lapin (52:29)

Pfeiffer and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@helpwantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram @moneynews and TikTok @moneynewsnetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

Jason Pfeiffer (52:49)

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

Nicole Lapin (52:51)

All right, well, talk to you soon. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a Co Host Network which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it, but I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co host@airbnb.com host so recently I started looking at my wellness routine and I wanted to see if there was any way I could enhance my results. I looked at my vitamins and I realized they were not as clean as I had thought. The list of ingredients was long with things like gelatin and artificial flavors, which obviously have no added value and can cause some digestive issues. After doing some research, I came across vim. VIM makes liquid vitamins and supplements that use clean ingredients and are not loaded with unnecessary fillers and binders like citric acid. And because they're liquid, they absorb faster than tablets, gummies, and capsules. And they're much easier to take if you have difficulty swallowing your pills, which I always have. It's a whole process. I've tried putting the water in first and then the vitamins and just. And unlike multivitamins, you can actually customize your vitamin routine so you only take what you need and nothing you don't. They're honestly so easy to integrate into my day. I just add them into my morning juice or smoothie and at night in my tea before I go to bed. Right now, Vimorgy is offering my listeners free shipping using the code MNN and you can save up to 12% with their mix and save program. That's vimurgy.com v I m e r g y.com with code MNN, as in money News Network. Try them today. I can't wait to hear what you think and more importantly, how you feel.