2025 Summer Tour Review

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast Episode Summary Episode: 2025 Summer Tour Review
Release Date: August 6, 2025
Host/Authors: Brian, Megan, RJ
Produced by: Osiris Media

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Introduction and Welcome

The episode kicks off with hosts Brian, Megan, and RJ greeting listeners and expressing excitement about reviewing Phish's 2025 Summer Tour. They acknowledge fan engagement through voicemails, reviews, and social media interactions.

Listener Interaction and Reviews

RJ addresses a listener's question on how to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, providing a step-by-step guide:

RJ [01:28]: "You go to the podcast app on Apple and you... just do that and then you say how awesome things are and then you submit it. That's it."

Megan proposes creating a video tutorial to assist listeners further:

Megan [02:04]: "You know what, maybe I'll do a little video of like showing how to do it. How about that?"

Brian emphasizes the importance of reviews, even if it's just leaving five stars:

Brian [02:17]: "Even if you don't have the time to write a review, just leaving those five stars helps because there's an accumulation that lots and lots of people think this is a five star podcast."

Voicemails from Listeners

The hosts play and discuss voicemails from listeners, starting with Tyler from Colorado Springs, who shares his thoughts on the tour's show structure and jam quality.

Tyler [03:24]: "In my opinion, a lot of these 25 plus minute jams, there's nothing new ground being explored... I want to hear them do something I've never seen before."

Brian and Megan respond to Tyler, appreciating his detailed feedback and encouraging more fan interaction.

Another listener, Tony, shares his experiences and supports the podcast by purchasing merchandise and offering promotional ideas:

Tony [11:11]: "Spac gave her a special sticker and I got my hf pod top 25t tour t shirt... summer tour started out rough, in my opinion. I was not a fan of the beginning, but man, the ending was great."

Defining Shows of the Tour

The hosts delve into identifying the most defining shows of the 2025 Summer Tour. They analyze various performances, highlighting standout moments and jams.

Brian’s Perspective: Brian identifies the Boulder shows as consistent and strong, noting the absence of "monster jams" but appreciating the overall quality.

Brian [06:17]: "This year the results were the strongest for a transitional year... less focused on these until we get to spac."

Megan’s Insight: Megan focuses on the symmetry of key shows, such as Manchester Night Three and SPAC Night Three, both Tweezer Reprise Fests, highlighting their magical alignment.

Megan [10:29]: "There's something absolutely beautiful about the symmetry that their first great show of tour was a Tweezer Fest and they ended the tour with a Tweezer Reprise Fest."

RJ’s Analysis: RJ compares the tour’s jams to historic performances, appreciating the flow and energy, especially in shows like Columbus on 7/9.

RJ [18:06]: "7:15 and 7:27 is the defining shows of the tour."

Favorite Jams of the Tour

The hosts discuss their favorite jams from the tour, each highlighting different aspects that resonate with them.

Brian's Favorites: Brian praises the Columbus show for its deep, hypnotic jams like "Petrichor" and "Wave of Hope," emphasizing their emotional and melodic depth.

Brian [21:32]: "Life Saving Gun... it sounds like fish channeling Yola Tango."

Megan's Highlights: Megan mentions jams such as "Downward Disease," "Tweezer," and "Life Saving Gun," appreciating their melodic grooves and emotional peaks.

Megan [40:19]: "The Tweezer from Charleston... really loving how they build intensity."

RJ's Picks: RJ is captivated by the Chicago 7/18 jam, commending the interplay between Trey and Mike’s riffs.

RJ [38:18]: "It's just this amazing little riff that Trey creates and then he kind of keeps pushing it."

Statistical Analysis of Jamming

Brian presents a detailed statistical breakdown of jam lengths across different tours and years, highlighting the 2025 Summer Tour's impressive number of long jams.

Brian [61:09]: "This year we have a lot of rarities... we have 18 this summer, so is that the highest?"

He reveals that the current tour is nearing a record number of 25+ minute jams, indicating Phish's commitment to deep improvisation.

Brian [66:05]: "We have 12 thus far across the entirety of 2025... deep jamming is going to be a part of this."

Unique Elements: Trey’s Guitar and Band Dynamics

The hosts discuss the significance of Trey Anastasio's unique guitar, the Languidot, and its impact on Phish's sound and identity.

RJ [69:38]: "Would Trey just played, like, a Strat for his whole career, would Fish be this band community idea symbol?"

Megan reflects on the emotional connection between Trey and his instrument, emphasizing its role in shaping their music.

Megan [72:44]: "There's something super magical about the guitar that he plays... the way that he builds emotion."

Top 25 Tours Ranking

Brian and Megan share their perspectives on ranking the 2025 Summer Tour within Phish's top 25 tours. They consider factors like show consistency, jam quality, and historical context.

Brian’s Ranking: Brian places the 2025 tour at number 18, just ahead of Japan 2000 and behind Spring 2023.

Brian [73:38]: "I think that this would go at number 18. Just ahead of Japan 2000."

Megan’s Ranking: Megan concurs, positioning the tour between Japan 2000 and Summer 1999, appreciating its consistency and innovative jamming.

Megan [76:41]: "I think it would go above summer 99."

They acknowledge Fall 2021's high ranking at number eight, noting its significant impact on their overall list.

Looking Ahead: Fall Tour Expectations

The podcast concludes with a discussion on the upcoming Fall Tour, sharing expectations and hopes for continued musical exploration and high-quality performances.

Brian [81:51]: "I think we're going to hear more from Mike... elevates the jams that much further."

Megan emphasizes the desire for continued innovation and less reliance on "bust outs" in favor of exploratory jamming.

Megan [82:26]: "I think that you gotta play them at the right moment and know what songs work in a rock concert."

RJ looks forward to witnessing the evolving dynamics between band members and the integration of new sounds.

Conclusion

The hosts wrap up the episode by highlighting upcoming segments, promotional activities, and encouraging further listener engagement. They tease future discussions, including a detailed review of Fall 2025 shows and additional top tours rankings.

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Notable Quotes:

• RJ [01:49]: "It's almost like the band, if they have one thing that they're focused on for that tour..."
• Brian [10:01]: "The goal here it seemed to be... let's bring in some fresh songs while also extending jamming in a non abrasive way."
• Megan [27:05]: "It's the style which we're going to get into... like a dark star jam would have been..."
• Brian [55:20]: "Our Rushmores are ACDC Bag Sigma, Ghost Waves..."
• Megan [68:14]: "This tour had the sixth longest jam of all time..."

Key Insights and Conclusions:

• Consistency and Innovation: The 2025 Summer Tour is praised for its consistent performance quality and the evolution of Phish's jamming style, blending melodic grooves with deep improvisational jams.

• Fan Engagement: Active listener participation through voicemails and interactive segments like the "Reprise" challenge enhances the community feel of the podcast.

• Statistical Validation: Quantitative analysis supports the qualitative praise, showcasing the tour's impressive number of long jams compared to historical data.

• Band Dynamics: The interplay between band members, especially Trey and Mike, is highlighted as a significant factor in the tour's success and the depth of their performances.

• Future Directions: Expectations for the Fall Tour include continued musical exploration, enhanced jam quality, and maintaining the high standards set during the Summer Tour.

Final Thoughts:

The 2025 Summer Tour Review episode offers an in-depth analysis of Phish's latest performances, blending fan feedback, personal insights, and statistical data to provide a comprehensive overview. The hosts' enthusiastic and detailed discussions celebrate the band's enduring legacy and anticipate exciting developments in their upcoming shows.

Transcript

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[Brian]

Osiris.

[RJ]

All right, we're live guys. We are, we are ready to go. We're ready to talk about so many things. Brian, Megan, how are you guys doing?

[Brian]

Doing great.

[Megan]

I'm great. I'm really excited to be here. I'm excited to do this episode. A lot of people have been reaching out saying that they're looking forward to this episode.

[RJ]

That's wonderful. Thank you guys for reaching out to us and sending us voicemails and leaving us reviews. There's a question in the chat about how to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You go to the podcast app on Apple and you, I think you have to probably be logged in and then you go to the show and you go to ratings and reviews which is.

[Brian]

Down a scroll all the way down.

[RJ]

And yep, keep going all the way down. And then you click on write a review with it has a little pencil and a paper next to it. You just do that and then you say how awesome things are and then you submit it. That's it.

[Megan]

You know what, maybe I'll, maybe I'll do a little video of like showing how to do it. How about that?

[RJ]

That would be awesome.

[Brian]

That helps people. That's good stuff.

[Megan]

Yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that today.

[RJ]

That would be so helpful. Megan. You're going to make everyone's life better.

[Brian]

Even if you don't have the time to write a review, just leaving those five stars helps because there's an accumulation that lots and lots of people think this is a five star podcast, which, you know, maybe you don't and then maybe you should write a review and tell us why and we'll talk about it on air.

[RJ]

Yeah, maybe, maybe. You might think that everyone is just concerned with how long jams are and that's it, you know? Yeah, could be.

[Brian]

That's all I care. I'm like, I'm just here for like the 1998 summer of baseball home runs, but for fish. Like, I don't care how much you juice up, Trey. Just do whatever you need to do. Like 73 minute jams. That's it.

[Megan]

Yeah, if it's a 13 minute banger, it probably is not going to make Brian's list.

[RJ]

It's true. That's very true. All right, let's get, let's do some voicemails real quick and then we'll get into it. We got a couple people who called in. We are still. I have a backlog of voicemails. Don't worry, we will, we will keep it going. Yes. Megan will keep making videos for you. Okay, here you go, guys. You're ready. Everyone's ready. Here we go.

[Tyler]

Yeah, this is Tyler calling from Colorado Springs. I was just listening to the, the Man Chicago recap. Megan's question about, about, you know, the, the bust outs and the flow and all those kind of things. You know, last year everyone was. I saw a lot of people online complaining about the short, you know, lots of short song list catalog, you know, staying with the songs that were working and the jamming was super inspired and an amazing year of jamming. It seems like this year, yes, we're getting the long jams, but a lot of those long jams are kind of just run of the mill playing. You know, in my opinion, you know, some of these 25 plus minute jams, there's nothing new ground being like explored. But yet, you know, they're, they're, they're busting out, you know, 100, 200, 500 show bust outs in the first and second set. It's almost like the band, if they have one thing that they're focused on for that tour, you know, it kind. You're going to get some takeaway from the other areas. So, you know, I guess it boils down to what are you, what are you looking for fish to do either that tour or that run that you're going to or whatever. Because to me it's always jamming number one and then humor, set list construction number two and then all of that within the bubble of I want to hear them do something unique. Whether it's song listing, whether it's jamming, whatever. I want to go and see something I've never seen before them to do something they've never done before. And that can be with songs, that can be with jams. And this year they're playing songs like, I just, I was at the Chicago run and I caught on your way down and I had no idea that it had been 500 shows or something since they played it because it's not, it's not that wow bust out. Even though, I mean, I thought they played it great. I thought it was incredible. But anyway, that's my, that's my little take. I, I think I love what you guys do and, and really talking in depth about the band in whatever form they present themselves from tour to tour and year to year and show to show. Keep up the good work.

[RJ]

All right, guys, Brian and Megan, what do you got? What do you want to say about that?

[Megan]

I'm really glad he brought that up because we have a nerd section of the pod today and I have a lot of thoughts about that idea about show gap and bust outs and fantastic shows. So I'm going to kind of put a pin on it till we get to that section of the, of the show, if that's okay. My thoughts.

[Brian]

I am so excited for that section because I prepared for the nerd deep dive slightly differently. So I think we're going to both complement each other very nicely in that section. I mean, I think the caller brings up a lot of really interesting points and I also appreciate at the end the overall tone of this, that like, you know, we're all, we're not complaining, we're critiquing, we're discussing, we're diving deep. And that's a nice reinforcement of what the goal is around here. But I think to his point, like, I go into shows similarly if, if you drop a huge jam in a otherwise uneven show, I'm probably going to walk out really happily happy if you play a really even show. Like, I thought the last two nights of Boulder were really even solid shows, tons of fun. Didn't have that, like, mind blowing moment. Had some rarities, had some cool segues, had some cool jam segments, but, like, didn't have, you know, what you walked away from on Man Night 1 or on all three SPAC nights or Manchester Night 3. And so, you know, for me, from a personal taste standpoint, yes, my hope is that I, over the course of a run, see that one big monster jam. And I think we talked about this midway through the tour, this sense of like the bands seem to recognize they couldn't just do what worked last year, no year following a great year. Do they ever do the exact same thing. They always try to mess with it in some way structurally from a playing standpoint. And the results I thought this year were the strongest for a transitional year that we've seen the band have over the last 30 years where there weren't real like huge drop offs, weren't real like huge dips. But definitely a noticeable change where we're less focused on these until we get to spac. These are the songs that we know that work. Let's just play them in varying orders, know that we'll fall into a flow pretty easily and focus on the jamming. The goal here it seemed to be let's bring in some fresh songs while also extending jamming in a non abrasive way. One quick thought like that I thought he made it was interesting was the idea of seeing a song like on youn Way down which is extremely rare 500 show bust out but it not being that wow factor. I don't have an answer to this but this is kind of a larger question that I've had kicking around my head. I'd be curious your guys thoughts. Maybe not now, maybe in the future, maybe it's something we come back to. But if we like past the peak bust out era where aside from like crazy 80s level bust outs you know your melt the guns, you're Lushington please. Have we passed the point where like bust outs have the same effect that they did in the late 90s in the early part of 3.0, mid 3.0 where it was like oh my God I cannot wait. I cannot believe they're playing this song. Where now you get songs that have I listed this in the last episode. A bunch of songs with a 100 to 500 show bust out that we were all like I can't believe they haven't played Hyhu in a hundred shows. I can't believe they haven't played ginseng Sullivan in 200 shows. Like these weren't the most Frankie says hahaha Uncle Penn. These aren't the most like you know, blow your mind apart type of bust out potentials. They're more just songs that they haven't played in 400 shows. So I don't know it's. It's an interesting part of.

[Megan]

We joked a little bit about that as we've been talking about the tour that these were the bust outs that no one really wanted or asked for. Which Isn't always true, but I do think that it's interesting on this tour how they started out in Manchester with playing very few bust outs and they ended the tour with very few bust outs. And then they kind of adopted that through the middle chunk of the tour. And I think it's really interesting to see how it affected the shows and the jamming as well. And I'm excited to get into that in the nerd section.

[RJ]

Yeah, I mean I just. The only thing I would say is just that the, like the bust outs with the jamming, as I said, I think last episode, that reminds me of summer 98 and in a lot of ways with these like massive jams alongside bust outs. Not, not in the same set, not in the same way. Like those were a lot of one timers and whatnot. But yeah, I don't know. I think, and I think that I heard a lot of new stuff toward the end of the tour. So I don't know. We'll get into it, I'm sure. Okay, one more voicemail and then we're. And then we're gonna keep going. We have an agenda. Brian constructed agenda, which means it's going to be. There's a lot and it's very in depth. We're gonna get to it right after this.

[Megan]

Can't wait.

[Tyler]

You know, rj, Megan, Brian, my three favorite fish podcasters on Osiris Media. This is Tony. Since I left the voicemail, it's great. Spac gave her a special sticker and I got my hf pod top 25t tour t shirt and I'm thinking about doing something crazy. My Instagram. If I could get to 300, I'm. I'll do a whole, you know, top 25 tour rundown. I'll shout out HF podcast. Megan, RJ, all you guys. I'm at like 295 followers right now. If I could get to 300, Tony underscore Pagano underscore verified. Maybe you should put it in the show notes, I don't know, but give you a big promotion. So summer tour started out rough, in my opinion. I was not a fan of the beginning, but man, the ending was great. I was at spac. That's all I got to say goodbye.

[RJ]

Okay, hold on. He has an addendum to this voicemail. So just let me play real quick before we, before we address everything.

[Tyler]

Hi, it's Tony again. So just to clarify about my not liking the tour too much until the end, I think it was because during June there was another Band tearing it up. You know, Madison Square Garden, Westville, late June. And then, you know, Fish just was doing their thing. But then July 5th, turning point, my friend my fuego on July 5th, I believe it was, really was a turning point, in my opinion. And then what a, what a way to close out the tour. Chicago the man, Forest Hills back. Just wonderful. So anyway, thanks for the shirt. I'm psyched I got the shirt and keep doing what you guys are doing. You're great.

[RJ]

So, all right. What do you guys want to say to Tony? First of all, thank you for your support. And I saw a Turning point.

[Brian]

Yeah, I did. I saw you did. I don't agree. I will, I will expand more throughout the episode. I, I think the end of tour was awesome, but I, I, I don't know if I saw this great swing upwards that I feel like the last five shows were really, really consistently great. But I also thought there was some excellent stuff in the first week and a half of tour. And I enjoyed My Friend my Fuego combo. I really liked that set. That was a very fun set to see in person. I haven't returned to it as much as I have other things on the tour. I'll just put it that way.

[Megan]

Well, thank you, Tony. Tony always makes an effort to say hi to me when we're out and about New York, and I really appreciate that. And I appreciate all the support of the POD and buying a shirt. That's awesome. And yeah, I have different feelings about the tour as well. I think it started out really strong and maintained some incredible moments of just unforgettable stuff throughout the whole tour. And I think ending with such a strong peak like that, it kind of makes you forget everything that came before. I was joking with you guys on text that I don't remember anything that happened before the man, really, except Folsom, because I remember that when Brian turned into a vibes guy. It's hard to forget that. But yeah, going back and listening, I've listened to all the peak jams that Brian put on a list for us and a few that he didn't, which maybe we'll talk about later. And this tour is incredibly strong. Incredibly, incredibly strong. That's my opinion.

[Brian]

I want to just note quickly because, well, two things I've just been reminded of. We've gotten off track from the agenda one already.

[Megan]

Wow.

[Brian]

Well, these voicemails, they're so detailed. One is evdude has some really interesting comments and questions here in the chat that we are going to be referencing throughout this episode. So, evdude, thank you for those questions. We'll be bringing them in especially when we get into the what's the sound of 2025 fish? Segment, but also going to run a fun little contest here. Okay. I think this is going to work out. So we're going to talk about summer 2025. We are going to challenge you all to guess how many times we are going to reference the word reprise in this episode. So start throwing your guesses in total number of times that we say the word reprise over the remainder of this episode. And then whoever is closest to this will get a top 25 tours t shirt compliments of HF pod. So start throwing those in as we get into the episode here and we will track them.

[RJ]

Well, just to kick it off, I just want to say that Reprise has a bunch of shows coming up, which I should mention as we get into it. And so you can see Reprise next week in Maine, in Connecticut, in Massachusetts. And then they're going to be playing here in Philadelphia on September 5th, Friday. The night before that is Bearsville and Woodstock. They're going to be playing again at Pembroke in Massachusetts. Turner Falls XL Live in Harrisburg, Saratoga Springs. And we have two nights at Brooklyn Bowl, New York, November 7th and 8th, which is going to be a very special pair of shows. So go to repriseband.com to check out tour dates. So there you go. There's two to get us started.

[Brian]

That was three. Can you just remind me what band is playing?

[RJ]

Brooklyn Bowl Reprise.

[Brian]

Thank you very much.

[RJ]

Yep.

[Megan]

So we only have one person who's given us a. Okay, we've got a couple. We've got a couple.

[Brian]

We got a couple. Okay, we got 47, 29, 69, 420, which seems a little excessive, but you know, maybe that person already has a T shirt.

[Megan]

Maybe they might. They might.

[RJ]

All right, so let's go to Brian's. Brian's agenda. It's a £4,4000 point agenda. So we'll just start making our way through this defining show of the tour. Defining show of the tour. I think there's two answers but want to hear what you guys think. Part answer.

[Brian]

Go. Yeah, you start. Kick it off, bro.

[RJ]

I think it's a two part answer. I think it's 7:15 and 7:27. I think those are the two defining shows of the tour. I think 7:15 made the. Made the turn toward like a lot of the stuff that we've been. That we heard afterward in terms of the jamming that, that sand I think was like a kind of a historic exploration in terms of like, you know, length and all that, but also just like the way that they. Just the way that they stayed with it for so long. So I feel like that laid the groundwork for what we heard on 727, which was the best combo of, you know, planned out kind of gimmicky thing with like very deep exploration. So, yeah, attendance bias. 1/2 50 attendance bias, which I think is. I'll take. I'll take it. That's my answer.

[Brian]

715 and 727 is the defining shows of the tour.

[RJ]

Yep.

[Brian]

Cool. Meg, what do you got? Do you want me to go? Whatever.

[Tyler]

We want.

[Megan]

You all go. I thought of it kind of as touch points, that there were three main touch points that affected this tour. And I think the first one is Manchester Night three. And I think that was a Tweezer Fest as well. And then you go to Man Night one, where I think they just launched into a patience that I heard throughout the tour, which is something I want to correct that I said differently to you guys on text. But the patience throughout this tour I think really upped a level in Man Night one. And then I also think Spac Night three being this Tweezer Reprise Fest. Obviously we've talked about that show and we'll talk about it again, but I think those three shows kind of encapsulate the tour. I think there's something absolutely beautiful about the symmetry that their first great show of tour was a Tweezer Fest and the last great show of tour was a Tweezer Reprise Fest. That is just pretty magical. And I don't know if they planned that, but it's pretty killer if they did. And even if they didn't, it's even more cool. But I think that's how I've kind of seen the tour is having those three points that were really influential and defining.

[Brian]

I like that. I like that a lot. And those are all really great shows. It's funny, we're all coming in with very different answers. So we are going. I think that this speaks to the vibe of this overall tour out the gates. So when I thought about the word defining, I thought of like, what was. What is the thesis of this tour and how is it best represented as a show? And I would certainly agree, SPAC plus 7, 15 plus Manchester are the strongest shows. I think that those are the best shows in the band at their best. But to me, this tour was a little bit less peaky and a little bit less shock and awe than it was at times, I think the baseline for this tour was overall extremely consistent and extremely strong. But had certain shows where you had four or five song stretches where you're like, what's going on here? What do we do? We just calling songs. We just seeing what happens if we throw things on shuffle. And that even happened in second sets. But also we have this real defining anchor of long, incredible improv where the band would just fall into these jams and you were just like, are you. Are you kidding me? You guys are just. You were just playing whatever, literally whatever song two songs earlier and now you're like completely locked in. And to me that is best encapsulated in the Columbus show on 7 9, a show which features two significant bust outs. Two significant bust outs that could be defined as songs no one was asking for them to bust out. One of which was Petrichor first in 121 shows and the other one was Waited all night first164shows. A song I will note I would love for them to play more because it sounds like fish channeling Yola Tango. But they didn't play it extremely well. You had jamming up front in ACDC bag. You had kind of these rarities and Strawberry Letter. Petrichor, you have this amazing 19 minute fully locked in hypnotic like tortoise level groove segment in Life Saving Gun to close out the first set. And then you have a 26 minute wave of hope and a 22 minute piper anchoring the second set, both in different parts of the set with kind of some other songs and this and that thrown in there. Both songs also don't get really dark. They stay in kind of this bright, energetic space. So for me, 7 9, when I think of this tour, that will be what this tour felt like in a show to me personally.

[RJ]

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think I was not surprised, but I am slightly surprised. Like I had that as one of the shows I wanted to talk about only because it's got such great flow and it has like the best open air. It's got the set closing Life Saving Gun. That, that baseline from Mike is just amazing. But the Petrichor is just. I mean it's tough.

[Brian]

They can't really play.

[Megan]

No. And it's like it doesn't belong in a rock concert. Like this is a rock concert that we're at.

[RJ]

Right. But I feel, I think that those. That Wave of Hope and the Piper both have like really kind of inventive and emotive playing by Trey and. And the Piper Peak in the perfect landing in a lonely trip. That's like, that's how you. That's how you do it, you know? So you're like, I don't know. I don't know if we. I'm not. I'm not sure what you do about that Petrichor, but I think that show is really very, very notable. Very notable.

[Brian]

I. I would personally love for them to play Petrichor more especially.

[Megan]

Come on.

[Brian]

I would. When it's tightly. It's beautiful. Like, like one of my, like, like few highlights of Alpine 2022, which should also be another drinking game on this podcast, is how many times I figure out a way to bring this show up. Like it was pouring outside of Alpine and they were playing that. It was beautiful and they nailed it. This was a very rough version. And you guys know I don't agree with the Christian rock segment in the middle of it. I would. I would take that out. You lose probably four minutes right there. But I do think it's gorgeous. It's just. It was a tough performance late in the first set at that point in time, and we didn't know exactly what we were getting.

[Megan]

Yeah, I mean, that show has like, less like Monster Jams, but better song selection mainly. But yeah, it's the. It's an interesting show. I think it. I like it as a defining show, but it. It's so hard because I think this tour. I think the store does have really high peaks.

[Brian]

You're right. And. And I think I almost wonder what would have happened if those. That stack run happens in the middle of the tour versus the end of the tour. Because I feel like it would make us look at things a little bit differently if you have that kind of run. Like if.

[Megan]

Thank God it didn't have Boulder.

[Brian]

Oh, God.

[Tyler]

Okay.

[Brian]

Like if you have Spack and then the Man Sand. I think that we're looking at this tour a little bit differently than like the man sand coming after a very solid Charleston run, which was very similar to me to the Columbus shows and then Chicago was a bit up and down and then you have this like five show stretch to. To conclude it with like a very strong Forest Hills and Spack run.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Okay. Well, we. We kind of did it. I think we all kind of agree we have a few touchstones there.

[Brian]

This is a good comment from Coolest. The guy that just disagreed with me that the tour started out rough, wants them to play Petrich Kumar the defense Rest. I. I understand. It's a logical argument. I'm not saying It's. I totally get Patrick.

[RJ]

Patrick says it's all additive and part of one piece. I agree with that. I mean, I think playing all these songs is what makes everything work, like for sure. And they gotta keep trying.

[Megan]

I just think like, you gotta play them at the right moment and know what songs work in a rock concert and what songs are more for your solo shows or your symphony shows.

[Brian]

You know, that's a bigger, all killer, no filler, second sets. Don't come to me with your fucking lonely trip. I don't want to hear a waste. I don't want.

[Megan]

I didn't say an emotive ballad. I just said a rock concert can have peaks and valleys, but they're earned. And I think a rock concert that has an amazing, beautiful ballad in the fourth quarter that is earned is. I welcome that. I want that. I don't want to hear an orchestra piece in the first set or the second set of my fish show if it's not.

[RJ]

If it's not only 20, 20 to 30 minute gems, it's.

[Megan]

Queens unite.

[RJ]

Ben and Ben Fox in this chat said there are three 20 minute jams in Columbus. Odd that there's a thought they didn't go deep. So I don't know.

[Brian]

It's the style. It's the style which we're going to get into. This is a great transition. Ben Fox, transition king here for this podcast. He knows how to segue a podcast. Well done because the next segment is what is the sound of 2025 fish? Which I think will help answer and clarify this. RJ, why don't you kick us off? I like you kicking us off.

[Megan]

Come on, let's hear it.

[RJ]

I think that, I mean, I'll say this simply because I don't have as much prepared as you both do probably. I'll just say that I think that. I think that the beginning of the tour and the end of the tour are very different in terms of sound. I think that they were using. In the beginning of the, of the tour there was like the, like the Manchester Carini, you know, there was sort of. That felt like it didn't have like a ton of direction, but. Yeah, but it still is great, but like, you know, laid back bliss into noise, then a jam at the end. It's kind of like the formula and I feel like as the tour went on they built on that a little bit and there was like, you know, some of the jams we talked about from. From Spac and. And Forest Hills just have so much more, I think, like texture in those same elements, just partially and. And the Charleston down with disease too. Like, I think that Paige and Mike were adding more. And it wasn't just Trey kind of driving jams to this on this pattern that we're kind of familiar with. And I think they started to kind of push. I think Mike and Paige started to push the sound forward to the point where to me the sound is, you know, that 725 set your soul free. You know, we're like, you know, wandering through the graveyard in the middle of the night. Sound like, that's the sound.

[Megan]

So good, so good.

[RJ]

That's all I got.

[Megan]

I love that. Yeah, I heard. I heard a lot of the same things. I was looking at spring tour, I was looking back and thinking about spring tour and thinking about how there were a lot of deep jams on spring tour too. But a majority of those were kind of jamming to a classic peak. With Trey playing a lot of hose and sustain and really leading jams. And then looking at summer tour, we had some kind of crossover from that. We had a lot of melodic groove based jamming that slowly, patiently built to a massive emotional peak that was kind of the most common jamming style of the summer. Like, a majority of the jams are really groove based, really horizontal jamming. That idea that they're on like train tracks going somewhere as opposed to like up and down, explosive vertically. I think I was listening this morning to the Carini from Forest Hills and I think that's really a good example of that where it's very. They kind of patiently melt into a repetitive groove that's really melodic. There's. Trey was loving like those classic rock melodies all summer, just finding those little beautiful melodies and latching onto them. I think there's a lot of patience this summer. It was funny because I was texting with you both about a lack of patience that I. Patients that I heard in the Twist and that I didn't think I heard again until later in the tour. And I want to retract that and say that I think this tour is pretty defined by patients, a lot of them. A lot of the patients they found was just more groove based and they would sit in a groove in a way that was really hypnotic and really beautiful. But I think the difference is that when they started to use more of those synths and Mike and Paige really elevating jams and adding so much depth and we got more of that occasional breakthrough of the percussive space, you end of Cross eyed and Painless from Chicago or the chalk dust from SPAC Night 2. And it felt like the jams really took a turn at spac. I totally agree, rj. I think that there was really exploratory and risky jamming over that weekend, especially with what Mike and Paige are doing. And I think that their willingness to breathe and float in some of those spaces is something that I hadn't heard as much on the tour because it felt more like they were latching onto groove as opposed to floating in ambience and where open, exploratory spaces. So I feel like that's kind of where they ended up with it.

[Brian]

Yeah, I'm on the same page with you guys. I feel like this goes back to the conversation we were having about the band feeling like they were in some level, some degree of transition. You know, last year you go back to a jam like the Dick's Chalk Dust, the Dick's Kill, Devil Falls, the Monda Green, what's going through your mind? These were jams that, like, seem to be just defined, at least to my ears, by the band deconstructing everything around them and then rebuilding with like, this kind of atmosphere, spaciousness, a lot of textures. There's a lot of moments, like the Ruby Waves from Dicks is like this, where it kind of just sounds like. And I mean this in a great way because I love these jams, but it sounds like all four members are doing their own thing. Almost like a dark star jam would have been, where it's just the connecting point is so thin and so loose that we are just able to go out and explore musical terrain. And, you know, playing melodic music wasn't really the goal. And to your point, Meg, like, a lot of those jams and then as you got into the spring, would find their way eventually to a really solid tray peak. And you heard throughout the last year or so, Trey playing with a ton of command, dynamic playing really just like hitting his notes and his melodies with clarity in a way that I think we'd forgotten he was able to do this year. Seemed to build off that last part, which was, what if we skip ahead to the peak and the patience. The time we spent is all based on building melodies and building kind of like fully formed songs out of thin air. And so you got this intra band communication between Trey and Mike that we hadn't heard in some time. Trey and Paige, the Karini from Forest Hills is such a great example of this because there are just moments early on where one member. I think it's initially Paige plays a riff and then Trey Immediately plays it. And that's what they build off of her the next five minutes. It's not just like an idea to get them to the next point. It's they build off of that. What then made it shocking by tour's end is the chalk dust and the downwind disease in particular start to bring back in elements from late 2024 where they're deconstructing sound. They're kind of playing in their own spaces. But they've trained themselves to respond like in a yes and manner to each other's melodies that you just heard. This really interlocking web of ideas in a way that like, to me that's what we'll hear them building on next, where it's almost like noise based melodies. If that makes sense.

[Megan]

Yes, please.

[Brian]

I'd be into it.

[Megan]

Yeah, me too.

[RJ]

What I was thinking this morning, the downside to all this, to me, is that there's no way they can do this again next year.

[Brian]

Do what?

[RJ]

Just everything.

[Megan]

But don't you think I did it last year?

[RJ]

I know. How do they keep. How do they keep doing this, though?

[Megan]

Like last summer everybody thought that the summer was like unbelievable.

[RJ]

I know.

[Megan]

And then I was.

[RJ]

I was mostly joking. But don't you feel like every time.

[Brian]

Yes, I know, I know. Exactly. We have. So we have 93 to 95 and then 97 to. Depends on your take on 99 to 2000.

[Megan]

Include them. Those are bangers. Come on.

[Brian]

Okay, okay, so like let's just like those are the two. Year over year. Consistent jamming is evolving and growing periods in the band's history. 96 I removed because, like, I think even the band admits they were trying to figure something completely new out. Ever since then though, it's been like one step forward, one step back. Or if not one step back, like one step in place.

[RJ]

Hey, Trey. 23rd, the best year of fish.

[Megan]

At some point I'm like, trey, I saw a ton of fish that year. I can promise you it was not.

[RJ]

Sorry. Keep going, Brad. That wasn't very nice of me.

[Brian]

When I think that the most shows I've ever seen in one year was 2010. You know, like we had 2013, fall, huge, huge tour, big step forward. 2014, a little up and down. Some great moments, but a little up and down. 2015, huge year. 2016, pretty big step back. I think everyone would assume Evdude has it here in the comments coming out of 2023 when they play the Tweezer Simple. They play a really great MSG run over the summer. A Lot of huge jams. Really big jams at dicks. That 91 second set is huge. They play Gamehenge. I think everyone would have figured going into 2024 that that is going to be a reset year.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And instead I was stronger than 2023. And then, like, this year was as strong. Like, you know, like, like it was right there with 2024. Like, this is stuff we haven't experienced in three decades with this band. Some of us have never experienced this with this band because, you know, their parents decided not to consummate the marriage until, you know, 1984.

[Megan]

I would even say since spring 93. But yes, crazy, sure.

[RJ]

All right, well, let's actually, you know what, let's take a break real quick before we get into the next item on the agenda. Moving through this perfectly. And we'll be right back.

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[RJ]

Okay, Brian, I'm just going to take the next one because I sent Brian a voice memo yesterday because I can't get this one riff out of my head. And I vocalized it to Brian in a voice message and said, what the fuck is this? Because I can't stop thinking about it. So that's. In terms of the jam. I can't stop spinning once I was told.

[Brian]

What was it?

[Megan]

Were you able to identify?

[Brian]

Did I get it right?

[RJ]

Yeah, you got it exactly right. Yeah. The Chicago. The Chicago 718. What's going through your mind? There's. First of all, I feel like a lot of these bliss jams of this tour, like, they almost all sound like you sexy thing in some way when they're. When they're like, no wonder I like them. But there's this part where Trey and Mike are kind of Driving the jam. And then Paige gets on the piano and then Trey pick, like creates this little riff, which I'm not going to vocalize on this broadcast, but if you, if you, if you listen around 16 minutes into it, between 16 and 17 minutes, it's just this amazing little riff that Trey creates and then he kind of keeps, you know, pushing it and then. And then toward like the peak of the jam. It's just. It's awesome. So that's still. That's the jam that I can't stop listening to.

[Brian]

What the hell is the point of live entertainment if you're not going to entertain the audience? Come on, let's. Let's hear it right now.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[RJ]

I can't. I can't do it. I can't do it.

[Megan]

I have to hear this after. I have to. I just like that Brian was able to identify client. That is so insane. I love you guys.

[RJ]

It's. It's. It's really great. Well, maybe. Should I try this? Does this even work? If I do this, this work?

[Tyler]

Possibly.

[Brian]

We've it in the past.

[Megan]

Yeah. Oh, so pretty, pretty.

[RJ]

Just like the little, the way curates a little more variety on it, you know? And then he keeps, keeps going. It's great. A great little segment.

[Brian]

We were listening to that jam in the car on our way to go kayaking the next morning, and my son just goes out of nowhere. Man, they are really jamming. You get it, my dude. You get it.

[RJ]

Awesome. They're really jamming. Megan, what do you got? What's a jam you can't stop listening to?

[Megan]

I have so many. I mean, I just want to mention a few, but obviously there's all the heavy hitters that are so hard to not listen to. Like the downward disease from Spac and the set your soul free to chalk dust from Spac. But I really want to talk about a few other ones. And one is the Tweezer from Charleston. I think this is a perfect example of a jam that doesn't break the mold, but it's perfectly executed. It has really beautiful melodic and lyrical section that builds to really textured peak. And then it has that post peak driving, swagger filled section that just builds an intensity and I absolutely love that jam and I keep going back to it. There's another one that I have to go hard for because it is not on Brian's playlist and that is the life saving gun from Spac. And this jam, I know I have attendance bias for us because it's placed perfectly in the fourth quarter, but it Goes so hard and it's so hungry sounding. And they're also deploying some of the new sounds that they've been using that they found in Spac. And I love the watery kind of sunshiny cool, really delightful ending to it too. And I am still petitioning for it even though Brian says it's not going to make his list. But I do think it is worthy of that. And the other one, that is kind of a small jam but I really love it and I keep going back to it and that's the my friend from Man Night one. It comes after the sand, but it is just incredible that it comes after this almost 40 minute sand. It's such a great set list call. But it's really, really pretty and similar to what you just played, rj. It has that like really upbeat uplifting feeling. It's really melodic and just gorgeous. Gorgeous peaks from Trey and I love in the end how he starts singing the ending. It's just really, it's really pretty. And that jam is. I don't know why I can't stop thinking about it.

[Brian]

All good ones. I will make you a deal. Okay, so right now we're going through the top albums of the year list and reshuffling things around and then I've got to return to the Honkers and go through their top jams of the year and make sure everything is online there. And then I need to go through the Eggheads and make sure their jams. But before fall tour I will return to all my top fish jams, make sure that they're in order, make sure everything is, is in proper place. And I will revisit the 726 LSG so that we can determine if you have a case or not. Okay, I'll make you that.

[Megan]

I, I know you're very busy, so I appreciate you squeezing that in. I also.

[Brian]

There's just a lot of jams. You know, there's just a lot of jams.

[Megan]

I listened to the Ghost from Forest Hills this morning and I don't think that that's better than the life saving guns back. So I'm just saying I want you to listen to with fresh, fresh ears. Okay?

[Brian]

Fresh ears. It's. It's going on there as a, as a fresh air jam to revisit. All the jams are going to get a revisit before we go, before we get to Fall, which is a couple weeks where we got so much to do between now and then. So my, my jam, I keep returning back to. I, I had Kind of similar issues to you. I had a couple, but one I want to just shout out is the Austin Golden Age. That jam is probably still my favorite jam of the year. The midsection of that jam goes dark and evil and really harkens back to the final section of the Mexico 2024 chalk test torture. And then it comes out of that into, I think the strongest trade peak of the year. That is still. I. I would say that's still my. My favorite jam of the overall year. We'll see. I'll do a big revisit here in a couple weeks. Chicago mind, as RJ mentioned. And then the SPAC chalk dust torture. That, that is in line. That is what I'm looking for when I want like fish to really dive deep in like a 25 plus minute long is. Is what happens in that Spock jock dust torture. But any number of those I keep going back to and I keep. I keep loving a lot of good answers here though.

[Megan]

That Austin Golden Age. I just love when unabashed optimism like and hope just explodes out of a weird jam. That has got to be like one of the best things the fish does.

[Brian]

Yeah. And that like that approach, it's kind of reverse what they used to do where they would go into the peak and then the post peak jamming was the dark, weird stuff.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

This. You get the dark weird stuff early and then you get this peak and it feels a little bit more heroic in that sort of standpoint.

[Megan]

I love that a lot of people.

[Brian]

Calling out this Back roads are free, which was a huge moment in a great show where they play multiple Tweezer reprises.

[RJ]

Yeah. Great addition to that set. Just one big contiguous reprise jam with Roses are Free. I mean, what's not to like?

[Megan]

I have not heard that song since 2010 and I missed it twice this summer. It's kind of sad.

[Brian]

Well, some of us have never seen Albuquerque.

[RJ]

Yeah, it's true.

[Megan]

Same.

[RJ]

I know. I think maybe I saw it in 2021 in Vegas.

[Brian]

Roses. Yeah, Sounds right.

[RJ]

Yeah. Okay. Favorite set of the tour. This is hard. This is a hard one.

[Brian]

Can I go first?

[Megan]

Yeah, I got it.

[Brian]

I got a set.

[RJ]

I guess.

[Brian]

I think this is an all timer set. I think this is the best set the band has played at SPAC since 6202004 set 2. I think it's when all is finished and this is all. You know, we're just talking about this historically. We will talk about this set and that is 7:25 set two from Spack. Set your soul free. Chalk Dust beneath the sea of stars. Piper, Everything's right.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

No notes.

[Brian]

I don't know. No notes. That's it.

[RJ]

I think you're right. I think it's perfect.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's a perfect journey. Like this is what we mean when we say narrative arc. This is. If people don't understand that when we talk about that, this is what we mean. It has a perspective and it has a complete journey that has highs and lows that feel very organic. It's perfect.

[Brian]

And deep jam Lonesome Dove in a set.

[Megan]

There you go.

[RJ]

Yeah, it's a really great set. I actually, I do think that the 715 set to. I. I think that there's just like I texted you guys, I think at the. When they started Bugyan, it was just like a little bit of a drop off. I think the Korean was like such a strong finish to this that I wouldn't like penalize it. But it's sort of like dropped off for 10 minutes there. But after 55 or 60 minutes, like what are you gonna do? You know? But I do think that it didn't have that full. It didn't hang for that like full set.

[Brian]

Yeah, I like, I think they could have played a song that would have taken you further out than Boogie on, you know what I mean? Like, I think was a. Still a solid. But there is something. There's a difference between fluidity and what are we gonna play? Okay, let's just play the fun Stevie Wondercover. I mean that's. Historically speaking, 40 minute jams don't typically come in the best sets. Usually a big 35 plus minute long jam comes in a set where they kind of are just like, cool, we're out of ideas. Let's just play a bunch of songs now. And that's the price you pay. I think that this set still, man, Night one still like works. But I think you're right that you're kind of pulled out of the. The vibe of the show.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan]

Like, I always think like if you took out that 40 minute jam, what would the show look like? Or if you put in two smaller jams in that, in that place, like, what would the show look like? And I think it would still stand up, but that everything that comes after a 40 minute song is always elevated like incredibly. There's one other set that I want to talk about because it blew my mind in the moment and I have attendance bias for this for sure. But I think that SPAC Night 2, Set 2 is pretty perfect too. When I was there you know, when you see a show as strong as Spac Night one, you feel like you're playing with house money. And so I felt like I had already seen the best of probably what I was going to see that weekend. And when they played that second set, I thought the first set was awesome too, by the way. But the second set, just the Oblivion into Downward Disease, into Light into Life Saving Gun and the Waste and Fluff Head again, really perfect flow, perfect narrative arc. I just, I think both of those jams are that Down With Disease is one of my favorite jams of the entire tour. It's just absolutely incredible. Was one of the moments when they found that ambient space that I'm always wanting them to find. And I thought the light was really well placed. And I think this is a perfect fourth quarter, so I go hard for this set. Also ending with Gogi rock and roll is like a perfect way to. Encore.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah. This, this set, this show should not have worked as well as it did. Like, you're absolutely right. You come out of that first night and you're just like the rest of the weekend is gravy. This is, this is the set to me that. Say what you will about night three, which, whoa, had this show not been as great as it was. I don't think we're talking about it as one of the best three night runs the band has ever played. Because this should be the down. This should be the Saturday night. Let's just play a bunch of rock songs. Absolutely.

[RJ]

I think the other show I want to talk about just real quick is 7:13. I think like the, the start to that show, Runaway Jim Foam, a 16 minute Wolfmans is what a great, great start. The first set has like a couple songs I would replace if I could. But the second set with Set your Soul Free, Tweezer Ghost, which is an hour of music and then a long golden age life beyond the Dream and then a Slave and the Meat stick Turtle in the Clouds. Tweezer Reprise Encore. Like, that's a really solid. Really solid.

[Megan]

It's really fun. Yeah. I also think this was that part of the tour when they were doing the Power Hour, where certain the first hour of every second set was like killer and then they kind of dropped off a little bit. But this is like a perfect example of that power hour.

[RJ]

Yeah, exactly. We have a comment in the chat here, Dave. Rj, I've been reaching out to you about reprise coming to 8 by 10. So happy to see that's happening. Reprises coming to Baltimore in October you guys check out, check out those tour dates. Check out Reprise. Okay, what do we got next?

[Brian]

Well, I just want to really quickly because I think this is a good comment. Cools TBM Set 1 Night 3 was the coolest set I've been a part of and I. I just want to give a shout out to epic set ones. This is not something we got a lot throughout the tour and it was so much fun. I got to imagine like the energy within the pavilion. There was just like people were losing their minds as that set went along because we were at home on the couch. But I think that that's. That's one thing I don't want to say was missing from this tour. But we didn't have a lot of these. Like, holy shit. This is a first set, but it feels like a second set where like anything is possible. And there's really something fun about being about experiencing the band like locked in from the moment when you can tell it's still daylight and they are playing as though like we are here to just like we're going to burn this place down tonight. And you definitely got that during the first set here.

[Megan]

Yeah, I almost feel like we're like have to keep Spac Night three out of these conversations because everybody should just know it's like the best. But I do want to definitely shout out forest Hills Night 2, the first set. I thought that was awesome. It was just like classic Fish opening with free Back on the Train theme from the bottom. I think the average year for this show for the first set was like 1995. Everything just felt very old school and was well played and we had a great Cities jam and a really great Aether Edge jam too. And I just, I thought ending with Squirming Coil, it did have that kind of complete package feel, which I don't. I think you're right. I don't think we had that a lot on this tour.

[Brian]

Such a cool Ether Edge jam as well, late in the first set. All right, so we've talked about jams, we've talked about sounds, we've talked about sets. It's time to get into the Nerd. The deep nerdy observations about fish 2025.

[RJ]

Before you do that, can I just say real quick, just quickly, I just want to talk about. Just mention. I don't think you guys mentioned it during that. What you were just saying the, the. The 15 minute cities at the beginning in the middle of that.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's so cool.

[RJ]

Awesome. Awesome. It's a really good set.

[Brian]

Sorry, go ahead no, no, no, That's a great point because I thought forest Hills Night 2 as a whole show worked incredibly well. Like the classic stuff I was talking about. And then, like, unique jam approaches midway through, and then a second set that, like, it doesn't have the same Power Hour feel that the first night did, but it has a cool Punch you in the eye, really cool ghost. Really very cool wave of hope. Very cool ruby waves. And like, within that, what's the use number line? Zero. Like, it just. It just worked. Sometimes the set list doesn't look the best on paper, but it actually works to the ears.

[Megan]

Rachel.

[Brian]

Strange thing. Strange thing. All right, Nerdery, what do we want to do here? Who wants to? Who wants to? So I've got Jam Length, Nerdery. Meg's got Bust Out Set list. Nerdery. Who wants to go first? Rj, what do you got?

[RJ]

I just have a question, which I'll end with the question.

[Brian]

Okay, Meg, what do you think we should do here? Should we go? Yeah, why don't you start with the set list and then I'll talk a little bit about Jam Lights, because it might contradict and complement some of the stuff you're going to say, which would be nice.

[Megan]

Okay, cool. Yeah. The first thing that I just wanted to say was that I looked at the ratings on net for summer tour for the average ratings for last year and for this year. Now we have to take these with a grain of salt because Folsom Night 2 was rated higher than Mondegreen Night 1, and Man Night 2 was rated higher than Forest Hills Night 1. So I will say these ratings are, you know, take them for what they are. But summer 2024, there were 26 shows, and the average show rating was 4.180. And summer 2025, there were 23 shows, and the average show rating Was 4.221. So very close with this summer edging out just by a little bit. There is always a lot of recency biased. But I still do think, thinking about the summers, that maybe this summer did edge out a little bit more. It's hard. It's really hard to tell. I have to think about that more. But the other thing I wanted to talk about was I was really interested to see if there was a correlation between really highly rated great shows and the average show gap. And my hypothesis was, was that the higher the show was rated or the better kind of the show was, the lower the average show gap would be. That was my prediction that I went into. And the last five shows Forest Hills through SPAC had the lowest consecutive show gaps of the tour. The average of those five shows was 8.81, which is a pretty low show gap. So I think those are the five strongest consecutive shows of the tour. Not necessarily the five strongest, but consecutively. And I think it's interesting that they tightened up the rotation so strongly for those. And I was just looking at some of the strongest nights like SPAC Night 3. Well, the whole SPAC run basically. SPAC Night 3, the average show gap is 7.53, so it's really low. If you look at Man Night 1, the average show gap is higher. It's 18.47. But that's only because they played Camel Walk, which really just like fucked up all the stats. But I did look at a lot of these shows that have really high show gaps, were the less successful overall and also had the least amount of flow. Some of them were rated higher because they included one huge monster jam. So things do affect the rating and that kind of direct correlation. But I just think it's interesting that the beginning of the show or beginning of the tour, excuse me, those first three shows in Manchester had a really low, averaging around 10 or something for the average show gap. And then like I said, the last five shows had an average of almost nine. And then in the middle you're getting some really high ones like 46 and 28. And those shows tended to be not as successful. That was just really interesting to me.

[Brian]

I think it'd be interesting to look at full tours as well and what, what the average show gap is on highly rated tours versus other tours. Like my initial thought would be, the outlier here is fall 2021, which is a tour that both includes a ton of rarities and bust outs, but also really fluid seconds, really fluid sets overall and really fluid shows and huge jams. That's kind of just like the rare factor because I think you're right. Like this sense of like we all go into the, into the fish experience in some ways for the unknown. I think that that's probably like one of the unifying factors that we have. Even if like some people are there for songs, some people are there for the vibe, some people are there for the sets or for the jam. Excuse me. Like that sense of like the band can do anything is really the driving factor. But is it like what is a song that hasn't been played in 250 shows do for a larger show versus a jam off of a song you heard four shows ago? That kind of rewires your brain in some ways, like where is the value? And I mean that's all in the individual. But I think like a lot of what we're looking for here is that latter part, which it seems like your hypothesis backs up mainly.

[Megan]

Yeah, occasionally they would play one song that would mess up the numbers, but overall, yeah.

[Brian]

I like that.

[RJ]

Brian, let me hear it. Let's go.

[Brian]

Okay, so I just wanted to look, I wanted to look at 20 minute jams by tour plus 25 plus minute jams by year to just explore how deep the band is going right now relative to other big periods in their career. And so I looked at five different tours from a 20 minute jam by tour standpoint. And then I looked at kind of the big jamming years in terms of a whole year of where we're at with 25 plus minute long jams. And it's interesting to me that, you know, this year we have the like, we have a lot of rarities that have come into the set list. We have, as we've talked about here, some, we have a larger percentage of shows that have been a little bit up and down versus these like cohesive masterpieces like Spac and, and parts of Forest Hills. But we do still have the ban committed to deep improv. And so I looked at, in terms of whole tours, 20 minute jams. I looked at fall 97. How many 20 minute jams do you think are in fall 97?

[Megan]

I'm not good at that.

[RJ]

Six.

[Megan]

RJ, what do you think?

[RJ]

Six?

[Megan]

11?

[Brian]

It is 15. And that is not counting the. The only yems I counted for this larger list were if they, if they, if they were a committed type 2 jam that went like 27 minutes or if they were over 30.

[RJ]

Yeah, I thought a lot of those were like just under. Yeah, interesting.

[Brian]

Yeah, a lot of fall 97 is like 17 to 19 minute long jams. Summer 17 going from Chicago through dicks. 1720 minute jams. Summer 24 last summer, 16 minute or 1620 minute jams. The high water mark. So 17 so far is the high water mark. What do you think is, is where do you think we land and just give a guess of a tour of where we land with the highest amount of 20 minute jams historically.

[Megan]

Well, I know we have 18 this summer, so is that the highest?

[Brian]

That is not the highest. There's one higher. Any guesses of what tour it might be?

[RJ]

I guess off the top of my head I would say summer oh three. But I don't know if that's true.

[Brian]

That's the tour. How many jams?

[RJ]

Oh, no idea.

[Brian]

1921. Okay, so we are like. My point in looking at this from a tour standpoint is like we're at a point where no matter how the band is approaching their set list construction, there still is a deep yearning and a deep desire to go deep on these jams. Even if these jams aren't necessarily getting into the dark, weird, atmospheric spaces of summer 2024, they're still pushing the boundaries here. And then when I looked, I stepped back and I looked at 25 plus minute jams by year. I'm just going to run through this because I think some of these are interesting. So this is. You get beyond the 20 minute mark. We're now in like a 25 plus minute long jam. Usually has like three or four segments that we go through as the band is figuring things out and communicating. So I started with 1994. There are eight 25 plus minute jams across the entirety of summer 1994, summer 95, 16 or excuse me, all of 95. 1697. We had 1520 minute jams in fall 97 alone. How many 25 plus minute long jams do you think there are throughout the entirety of 1997?

[Megan]

4.

[Brian]

RJ got anything 14. 14 across the entire year. Isn't that crazy?

[Megan]

Wow.

[Brian]

97 was not about like these like, you know, you have the outliers. 98, it drops down to 4. 99, it's 11, 2000 and 2003 both have 1025 plus minute long jams. And then we get this very like wild stretch of 2004 only has four. I jumped ahead there until 2017. That's got five. 2018 only has one. 2019 has three. We then really see things change again in 4.0. So these are 25 plus minute long jams across the entire year. 2021 has 11, 2022. Why are we down on this year in some ways? Well, it only has three. All right, there's, there's room for criticism in this year. Okay, 2023, we start to jump up. It's six. Only six. I was really blown away that only six jams in 2023 exceeded 25 plus minutes. The last two years are the closest that we've had to 95 and 97. 2024, all told, had 14. 2020 at 1425 plus minute long jams. Where do you think we're at with 2025? How many 25 plus minute long jams you think we're at now?

[Megan]

I Don't know. We have a good amount.

[Brian]

So we had 1720 minute jams over the summer. How many 25 plus minute throughout the year do you think?

[Megan]

Six.

[Brian]

RJ, he's got nothing.

[RJ]

Continuing to abstain.

[Brian]

We have 12 thus far across the entirety of 2025. And we still have an eight show run in September and we still have a four show run in at MSG. So we are four jams away from a category exceeding the 25 plus minute record. Taking that from 1995, I think that the band at this point.

[Megan]

Oh my God, that's crazy.

[Brian]

Based on where we were at at the end of the summer tour with Forest Hills, Night one set to night two had long jams across the middle stack. Night one and two, we have like really, really big deep jams. It feels like they're in a place where like the jamming is only going to continue to grow. And it almost feels like they're at a place where they can approach shows in very different ways. They can play these kind of random pick a song out of a hat set list where a song appears for the first time in 300 shows just because. Or these very focused, very tight shows. They can play something that's thematic like a Tweezer Reprise show to close off the tour. Regardless what it is, deep jamming is going to be a part of this. That just seems to be a part of where Fish is at in the 4.0 era, which doesn't seem like news, but like you actually put it into numbers and see how long it's been since this happened. Just wild to look at what they're focused on at this point in their career versus 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you know, and then you go back 30 years.

[Megan]

Well, I definitely feel that when I'm watching these shows from home, you're like, oh, a 28 minute Carini. Okay. Like it's not like shocking anymore and it's just incredible. The numbers that I was looking at for that too is that this tour had, this summer tour had the sixth longest jam of all time in what's going through your mind from Pittsburgh. That's wild. And then if you just look at 4.0, there are, you know, the 10 longest jams in 4.0. Three of them are from this summer. That's wild.

[Brian]

Spanned is just continue to go wild. Yeah, go ahead.

[RJ]

It's crazy. I mean like I. I've been seeing fish since 1995. I don't know how many years ago that is. Even though I'm a math teacher. Now, but, you know, that's. I saw the longest jam I've ever seen this summer. Like, that just. It just doesn't make sense.

[Megan]

Love that so much. Yeah.

[RJ]

Does it make sense?

[Brian]

It doesn't.

[RJ]

Brian, thank you for bringing that. Yeah, go ahead.

[Brian]

Well, I was just gonna say thank you for the compliment, Meg. Thank you for your stats as well. I think we.

[Megan]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[Brian]

Added, like, two levels of this. Ed says, how can it grow? I feel like this is it. The only question is how much longer they can ride the wave before age catches up. That's kind of how I feel. Like I don't know how much better they can get. But I've also, I think, spent the last five years, four years since 2021, being like, I have no idea how much better this can get. And then it seems like they raise the ante. It does seem like they know that there's a slight race against time right now.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And as a result, are kind of like, let's just put every. Put all of our chips in, no matter what.

[Megan]

Well, at least now we've proven it. We've proven it with stats. That Fish is amazing right now.

[RJ]

So thank you both for doing that. It's nothing we could have ever done based on our opinions or our emotions. It's. We can only do it with statistics. Statistics. And you guys both did it. And thank you, Megan, for all your amazing promos of the show and for organizing our T shirt sale. Thank you, Brian, for helping to figure out how to keep streaming from Streamyard. You guys are just. You guys are amazing. Amazing. Team effort.

[Brian]

Team effort.

[RJ]

We. We are going to get to the end of the agenda here, miraculously. Here's my question for you guys, which is not really a nerdery observation, but I was thinking about it yesterday. Would Fish be where they are today without the languidot guitar?

[Brian]

Like, in general?

[RJ]

Yeah. Like, if Trey just played, like, a Strat for his whole career, would Fish be this, like, band community idea symbol? It's like. It's like. It's what? It's like the defining. There's like, the donut, you know, dress, which I think is the other thing, but, like, the languidoc guitar is like this symbol of fish. And I was just thinking the other day, like, what if he just played a Strat his whole career? Like, would he be. Would it. Would this whole myth and legend of Fish be less powerful?

[Megan]

Oh, my God. I love that question.

[Brian]

I think it's great. Great question. I think it's a great observation. I Think. I think it's one of the kind of turning points, like, the fact that they had a sound guy who knew how to build this guitar, that Trey had to basically learn how to play on stage because of the, like, he's talked about the amount of feedback he had to deal with when he first started playing it. And, like, you have to, like, be physical and moving that guitar and putting it into, like, you know, how does it work with the amp? How does it work with the crowd? And then when it all comes together, like, that is the most power, like, the most magical sound. I remember first getting into Fish, like, one of the first things I saw in the pictures I would see of them, I was like, nobody plays that guitar. What the hell is that guitar? It looks like an acoustic guitar, but also the most, like, badass electric guitar. What's going on? Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And maybe someone should do a historical podcast looking at all the major turning points in Fish history. Maybe that'll be our project. If we finish Rushmore, Just go through all of the what if moments of, like, if they didn't do this, what happens?

[RJ]

Yeah, we'll call Amy Skelton, and you will start. We'll start from the beginning.

[Megan]

I'll start from the beginning. I like that question a lot, rg, just because I think that there's, you know, he's. He's an artist, first of all, and so I think all artists like that are that creatively inspired, find their way, no matter what. But I do think that there's something to be said for someone who plays an instrument, and having that instrument means something to you emotionally and grow with you and come from a place that is a part of you. And I think that there's something super magical about the guitar that he plays, for sure. And the way that he builds emotion and plays with emotion. That's why he's my favorite musician of all time, is. It's hard to say if he could do it on a different guitar. I mean, I think he probably could, but I love thinking about how he's been inspired and how that guitar has affected him so deeply.

[Brian]

What a question.

[RJ]

See, guys, without. Without any research whatsoever, I was able to blow everyone's minds.

[Megan]

See, it takes just. Just brags about it. He's like, I don't really have to work hard at this. I can just, like, do it, and it's better.

[RJ]

It takes all kinds.

[Brian]

I can't wait for you to, like, talk to one of your students in the library and be like, what are you doing this study and see, with. Without any study, I can ace this exam too.

[Megan]

Exactly. You don't have to work hard, just be better.

[RJ]

Okay, so let's talk quickly about the top 25 tours. It's the subject of the T shirt I'm wearing. It's. It was the subject of a year of work. Actually, more than that, considering the prep that we all did. Where do you guys. Where do you guys think this would rank in the top 25?

[Megan]

Brian, what do you think?

[Brian]

So I thought about this. I think that this would make the top 25 tours. I think absolutely. I think that this would go at number 18. I think it would go just behind spring 2023 and just ahead of Japan 2000. I think that spring 2023 in my mind still has that incredible wow factor that I felt last summer. Summer 2024, and I didn't feel as much this summer. I think that this was very good. But also had a couple boulder shows thrown in, couple first sets that were throwaways, couple second sets where the fourth quarters kind of fell apart. And so you have at the end of it a collection of really high quality jams amid shows that sometimes really, really, really connected and other times the jam was the reason why the show was highly touted. And so I think just behind summer 23 or spring 23. Excuse me, just ahead of Japan 2000.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's interesting. I had it, which I thought was a little controversial because the fan vote had summer 99 at 10 and we had it much lower. We had it at 20, but I thought it would be number 20. So in between Japan and 99. And I think it's interesting because I have a real deep affection for Japan 2000, but I also think that there's some all time shows in there that are just so incredible that I think it carries the rest of the tour, even though it doesn't have the consistency and volume of some of the other tours. It's small too, so it's a little bit hard to compare, but I think it would go above summer 99. I think that when I thought about this tour, and one thing we thought about a lot was context when we were making this list. And I think thinking about where we are in this tour's history, this band's history, this is just such an epic tour, similar to what we were just talking about. Some of these numbers making it, you know, deep jamming that we haven't heard since the mid-90s. It's incredible. So I feel like since this Band has been so consistently strong since, like, spring 23 that it feels like such a massive accomplishment to pull off a tour like this after strong tours before it and the amount of monster jams. And to me, really, how the sound was still developing at the end of the tour and changing right up to the final run really makes this tour phenomenal to me. I think when you have a band that's been on the road playing 23 shows and they're still developing new sounds, that's just, you know, that's some young stuff, and they're doing that. So I think I'd put it there.

[RJ]

Do you? So you guys. You guys think that 2021 fall is still far and away a better tour in terms of 4.0?

[Brian]

Yeah. I was just looking at this list. I haven't looked at this in a couple weeks. It's wild to see what we did. We have fall 2021 ranked number eight. Yeah, that's really high. When we talked at the end of 2024, we talked about where we would rank summer 2024 on the top tours list. When we did our whole recap of the top tours list, I noted I would have it as tour number 10 on that list. So I think that those two tours, Summer 24 and Spring or Fall 21, are significantly like, head and shoulders above the rest of 4.0. I think that the thing that blows up our overall list is that spring 23, summer 25 are kind of. They're there. Like, we're starting to get to a point this deep into 4.0, where it's not an anomaly, that they're playing a great show. They're playing. This is a great era of the band overall.

[RJ]

I think, personally, compared to 2023 spring, I think this tour has a lot more new direction. So I would put it. I think it would. I mean, I would still put it like 20, but I would probably move spring 2023 down at this point. It's hard to put any tour now, Maybe besides fall 2021, ahead of, like, some of these tours that we've been listening to for decades. It's just. Really.

[Megan]

Well, yeah, that. That's kind of where I bent. Because also, like, when you think about, like, the importance historically of some of these tours, like, you start looking at them and you're like. Like, I think that's One reason why 2023 spring is where it is, is because it was, like, it kicked off this era of greatness that we're still living in. And. And then if you look at, like, some of the other tours, like, 93. Spring, winter. Like, that. That tour is so impactful for the band, so it becomes hard to divorce the music from the context.

[RJ]

Yeah. Okay. And this comment from Ben, who's watching along on YouTube, says he's making his way through the top 25 tour series. Love it. Appreciate the work you put into it. Fall 2021 is up next. Looking forward to finishing the project out. Ben, let us know what you think. Let us know what mistakes we made and what you think. Basically, just tell us what we did wrong. That's my general request. But usually it's just that telling us that we're awesome, which also works. Okay, last thing.

[Brian]

Sorry, I just want to know.

[RJ]

Not last thing.

[Brian]

Not last thing.

[RJ]

Because an ultimate thing is, like, the.

[Brian]

Top top seven tours on this tour. I don't want to spoil things for Ben. You guys are. It's all out there, you know? But, like, I don't think you're moving any of the top seven shows or top seven tours. Like, I don't know what it would take to have a new tour break into the top seven. Like, that seems to me the, like, demarcation line that, like, when you get to seven, is summer 95. Like, from there to one.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

We're literally talking about a band playing on, like, the best music any of us have ever heard in some ways. So, like, for them to get to that point, they basically, like, would have.

[Megan]

To play SPAC Night 3, like, 100 times.

[Brian]

Yeah. Like, those kinds of shows for the entire tour. I don't even know if it's. If it's sustainable. So maybe this will look different in 20, 25 years when we return and do top 25 tours again. But I don't know. It's. It's just hard for me to imagine them ever exceeding those top seven tours.

[Megan]

This kind of makes me want to go back and listen to fall 21 and spring 23. Like, back to. Back to this tour. That would be an interesting project.

[Brian]

Well, we gotta work for the right podcast to do. Yeah, but we have other work first.

[RJ]

We do.

[Megan]

I have so much other work. My God.

[RJ]

I just. The Ed saying, you guys overrated summer 98. I mean, when I look back at my favorite jams of all time, especially with the bathtub gin from Riverport and some of the others, like, it's just. I mean, some of the jams from that tour, I. I think outweigh some of the, like, inconsistency of the tour, but we can't talk about that. We already talked about it. We got to talk about something else, which is fall 2025, which apparently is starting.

[Brian]

Go to our episode if you want. Our defense.

[Megan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a whole episode for probably 90 minute defense of it.

[RJ]

We. We have. We have to talk about fall, which apparently is starting soon. It's not technically going to be fall yet, I think when they start playing. But we're gonna.

[Megan]

Everyone was very mad about it that I was saying that the summer tour was over. But I was like, I mean, you take this many weeks off, then it kind of feels like it's a different thing.

[RJ]

It's gonna be playing still the season.

[Brian]

But come on, come on.

[RJ]

September 12th is the next show. They have basically five shows and then three shows at Hampton. That's probably what we're gonna get for the fall before the MSG run quickly. Expectations, which is always, always good to have. What are yours?

[Brian]

Always. I think that we are going to hear more from Mike. I think that his contribution to jams was some of the most interesting stuff from the tour and I think we're going to get more of that. My hope is that we get a little bit of a sharper Fishman. This felt like specifically the Boulder shows. You could see a lot of what is going on between Trey and Fishman. Are they on the same page right now? The way he played through 23 and 24, if he can get to that point in time again, I think it just elevates the jams that much further.

[Megan]

Yeah. I hope they pick up where they left off in SPAC and continue exploring new sounds and kind of pushing the boundaries of jamming. I was really interested during this tour to watch Paige and Trade communicate. So I'm going to be looking for that again in the fall and I'd be okay. I'm advocating directly for less bust outs if it means more exploratory jamming.

[RJ]

I just want to say that if we're going to just. If we're going to get, you know, serious about dates here, I think that fall should just be the Tuesday after Labor Day and that should just.

[Megan]

I know I have to go back to you start a new school year. That's. That's fall, guys.

[Brian]

That's fall.

[Megan]

That's fall.

[RJ]

It's fall.

[Brian]

I say it every year. I won't say it this year, sadly, but I say it every year. You walk into dicks on night one and it's summer and you walk out on night four and it's fun.

[Megan]

Oh, sorry, Bri. That's sad.

[RJ]

Can I leave? Can I share? It is. I'm sure my expectation for fall from Patrick. Make your only expectations hugging your friends and it'll sound a lot better. Trust me. I'm into that. I'm into that.

[Megan]

Yeah, I'm into that too.

[RJ]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't really have any. Do you guys have any more?

[Megan]

I mean, they're playing a festival. They're playing a Bourbon Festival, so I'm interested to see what that's about.

[Brian]

I think we're undervaluing the fact that they're returning to Hampton for the first time since 2018.

[Megan]

Is that really how long it's been? That's crazy.

[Brian]

Is that right double.

[RJ]

Yeah, that's right.

[Brian]

Double encore.

[RJ]

Double encore. Night Night three.

[Megan]

Dublic Wild.

[Brian]

Great. Simple. Was that your hundredth?

[RJ]

Yeah, it was my hundredth. We got it celebrated. Kate. Kate got Sears printed. Nobody got anything printed for my 150th on the man night too. Trey gave me a late second set 20 years later as a present, which I, like, greatly appreciated.

[Megan]

How to Stay Alive.

[RJ]

It's a good point, though, Brian.

[Brian]

I mean, yeah, I think, like, that. That's gonna be a big thing. I think, you know, they're coming off of a great tour.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's gonna be good stuff.

[Brian]

What do they like? If they came out and we're like, cool, no more jams. We're just gonna work on songs this tour. Like, I think that that would shock people. I think that would shock us about the approach that they have right now.

[Megan]

Let's not give them any ideas.

[Brian]

Don't.

[RJ]

Ed is doing a nice. A nice little preview for us. Is there another Rushmore coming? There is a Rushmore coming next week. We're so back.

[Megan]

We're so. I've been missing them. I'm excited. We have. We're doing ACDC Bag, right?

[RJ]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian]

We're doing ACC Bag next. Yeah, I got the challenge there. That's me.

[Megan]

I'll put the list up right. Like today.

[Brian]

Cool. And then we've got just to give you kind of the next couple weeks because August and early September, we are getting back into regularly scheduled programming before we dive into fall tour recaps. ACC Bag is next. Sigma Oasis is after ACDC Bag.

[Megan]

You're already there.

[RJ]

Unbelievable.

[Brian]

Already there. New song, Rushmore. We're putting it up there. This is us in recency bias, being like, these are the versions. We are going to do a Dick's Shows and Jams draft, which is already prepped, already announced. You can push back on it and say, why would we do that? Guys, if you got a veg you want to cover, you can do a draft about it too. Okay. Like that's.

[RJ]

Some people might have already asked this question.

[Brian]

The draft prep is all, it's all open to everyone.

[Megan]

I have questions about that too. I've been looking at that. You have to walk us through that.

[Brian]

I'll walk you through anything you need to know. Okay. You've already probably got the win just like booked. So, you know, let's just.

[Megan]

I didn't win the last draft. I just want to say I didn't win it.

[Brian]

And then we're gonna. And then we're gonna do a Ghost and Waves Rushmore. So. So our Rushmores are Acc Bag Sigma, Ghost Waves, all leading up to fall tour in mid September and then a Dick's shows and Dr. And jams, Slash Dick's morning Fest which will happen the week of August 25th.

[RJ]

I'm gonna just, just. Sorry to, to jump in quickly. I'm going to make the Mount Rushmore ACDC bag. If you go to osirispod.com Rushmore very soon there will. It will be the ACDC bags that you can vote on. I have to do Ghost. I'm a little bit, bit worried about that, but yeah, that looks overwhelming.

[Megan]

I looked at that list this morning. That's big.

[RJ]

I'm gonna put up the CDC bag. Go to. Don't go to Mount Rushmore. Go to osirispod.com rushmore okay. All right, that's it. That's all we got. Will we have a Petrichor Rushmore?

[Tyler]

No.

[RJ]

All right, thank you guys.

[Brian]

See you.

[Tyler]

Gush Sam.

[Brian]

Osiris.

[Sponsor]

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This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings or doing a cover version of a song arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics. Using samples, recording all acoustic even tiny decisions, like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important, important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. So tune in to Rearranged, and maybe it'll happen for you, too. Learn [e-mail].

[RJ]

Osiris.