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- [00:01]
Brian
Come in to your neighborhood Starbucks to enjoy free refills of hot or iced.
- [00:05]
Megan
Brewed coffee or tea.
- [00:06]
Brian
So stop in and stay a while. Your free refill is ready at Starbucks. Visit starbucks.comrefills for details.
- [00:16]
Megan
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a Good Neighbor save, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Osiris.
- [00:56]
Brian
All right guys, we are back. We have a fun one for you. Today we are going to be talking about whether you can like concerts if you aren't there and topics such like that. Next week we're going to be. We have our Down With Disease Mount Rushmore. I've listened to two of the Down With Diseases on the list. I think there's more than that.
- [01:19]
RJ
Guess how many I've listened to.
- [01:21]
Brian
How many?
- [01:22]
RJ
27.
- [01:23]
Brian
Oh, wow. Look at you.
- [01:25]
Megan
You did it all.
- [01:26]
RJ
Almost. I have three more.
- [01:28]
Brian
Wow. Okay. Well, I'm going to try to listen to all of them before we record next week. That's my goal. That goes. Brian has a list. Brian has the responsibility to. To. To make this and not fuck it up and make it work.
- [01:43]
RJ
So much pressure.
- [01:44]
Megan
I think I have 17 honorable mentions as well. It's just the list is so messed up.
- [01:50]
RJ
Speaking of, I have a lot of honorable mentions still.
- [01:52]
Brian
I want to quickly, I gotta thank two people. Bryce, who I saw at the Reprise show at Soundcheck Studios in. In PE broke. So thanks for coming to that show. But Bryce and, and a guy named Alex both left voicemails that the link that I put into the notes for the Rushmore voting was not right. So thank you for happening with the links.
- [02:10]
RJ
These days they're not our friends.
- [02:13]
Brian
I did fix them so now they're.
- [02:15]
Megan
They're there.
- [02:15]
Brian
They work. If you go to osirispod.com Rushmore you can vote on your top four versions of down With Disease. We have. We have a handful of people who voted but not enough. So go to osirispod.com rushmore so that you can vote on your four favorite down with Disease versions. Also, you know, guys, I didn't even tell you this yet. I wanted to be surprised. We got like five new reviews in the past week on Apple podcasts.
- [02:43]
RJ
Five. Oh my God. I love our Listeners. That's.
- [02:46]
Brian
One of them is. One of them is purely trolling and the other four are really, really nice.
- [02:52]
RJ
What is the trolling? Is it funny?
- [02:55]
Brian
Yeah, you can see it. You can check it out. It's a. It's. It's. It's good. The rest are positive, which I think is about the right ratio. So thank you guys. And you can go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review and tell us how great we are because it helps other people discover the show. That's what they tell you. I don't know if it does, but that's what I've been saying for 13 years now. So not going to stop now. Today we have a brief episode. We're just going to. We're going to talk about some stuff. Brian, I got. I kind of want to just start with Brian because Brian.
- [03:25]
RJ
Yeah.
- [03:26]
Brian
Is so good at not going to concerts but still consuming them. You're the best I know at not going, but knowing exactly what happens in the concert. And so I feel like it's appropriate because I think Megan and I are a little more like, we go to some, don't go to some. I never stream. I never stream. I always listen the next day. If I don't go to a show, I almost never stream. So I'm in, like a different group.
- [03:52]
RJ
I'm in the middle. Yeah. I don't like live to stream, but I like it and I do it a lot.
- [03:59]
Brian
So, Brian, when you think about this, and I think some people have made some comments to us about, like, man, you weren't there. You don't get how good this version of whatever was. Or you don't understand when they played more how amazing it was, which I do, obviously. But you guys probably don't can. If you're not there, can you fully appreciate the concert experience? Can you. Can you, like, can you look at it and. And really understand it in the way that someone who is there can understand it?
- [04:30]
Megan
I think unquestionably, I have never once heard a good answer that you can't. I certainly understand and accept that it is different. That's a great comment. Perfect. Specular says, I trust Brian's opinions of the shows I've been to more than my own. I appreciate that.
- [04:51]
RJ
Thank you.
- [04:52]
Megan
Here's the thing. The in concert experience, I was talking about this with two of my best friends who I go to see a lot of shows with a lot of fish shows with specifically. I have some incredible memories of seeing concerts with them, especially fish shows. That experience is always completely different from the music. It may add to the music in some ways. The music may add to it, I guess, is how I should say that. The music may not be the best part of that night. That night may be dominated by inside jokes that happen at a dive bar afterwards. It may be like a conversation you had at set break. It may be like the dinner you had before the show, or the music is the number one thing, and it adds to this overall experience that you're having with friends. Like, I think it's very different. When I was thinking about this topic. I don't know how much you guys want me to get into this before Megan has a chance to give her answer, but I have, like, three. I really thought, like, three main reasons why I think that this argument that you have to be there to understand it is flawed. How do you want me to do this? Do you want me to give you one and then we discuss it or we want to hear what.
- [06:04]
Brian
I think you should just go for all of them.
- [06:06]
RJ
Go for it.
- [06:07]
Brian
I'm personally shocked you brought a list to this, but. But I'm going to allow it because I think it's the right. I think it's the right time for it.
- [06:16]
Megan
I'll go for it then. So number one, and I'm speaking, like, specifically about Fish and, like, the Jam band world, because, like, going and seeing a rock concert that is basically the same set list every night is different from this. Going to see, like, an indie rock band that, like, acts, like, they're disinterested to be on stage is different from what, like, we go to the Fish Experience for. I think that that's, like, ultimately the heart of this. But when I got into this band, I got into them in the summer of 2001, during the hiatus. There were at that time, there were no expectations that Fish was going to get back together. I think everyone kind of knew they would, but, like, there were no announcements. The solo bands were touring that whole summer. And I vividly remember the first tape that, like, really got me was set one of 11, 17, 94. And there's a Forbin's Vibration of Life, Mockingbird Disease to close the end of that first set. And during the narration, I remember listening in, like, a 1993 Chevy, something like Cavalier, just, like, a shitty car that my friend was driving. And the tape was all scratchy and weird. And Trey is doing this narration about the vibration of life. And I just remember sitting in the car being like, I have never heard a rock band do anything like this. I didn't Realize that you could create something this immersive. And like, I remember the feeling I had. I was like, I want to hear everything that this band has ever done. And I've done that for now almost 25 years. Like, I didn't see them live for the next two years. And I collected tapes and I got it. And like, I knew in the back, like, I knew I wanted to see them in concert. I was like, everyone was telling me, until you see them live, you won't get it. And like, the whole time I was like, I'm fucking getting it. Like, I don't know what, like, else, like, maybe like, yeah, voice of the.
- [08:17]
Brian
People who talk about concerts is always the same.
- [08:20]
RJ
So the same voice.
- [08:23]
Megan
Same freaking person. Every time. Every time it's the same person. Be like, oh, well, you just didn't get it because you weren't there, man. I think I'm getting it. So I'm changing direction here because I'm going on as I'm going to do. I want you guys to respond to that. I mean, we can talk about this sense of like, Phish as a tape trading band that brings their music to you via webcasts. All the concerts are posted five minutes afterwards. Like, just as like an initial conversational point here. That to me, strikes me that the band wants you to consume the music outside of the concert. And the music outside of the concert clearly impacts the way that people feel and hear it.
- [09:07]
RJ
Yeah, I have like a really big analogy that I want to make, but before I do that, I want to respond to what you're saying, Brian. And that is, I think it's degrading to the art to say that you only get it if you're in the crowd for the performance. I took an art history class in college. It blew my mind. I studied all the great artworks throughout history. I didn't see one Picasso in person, one Hockney, one Pizarro, nothing. But I did learn an incredible amount about art that has stayed with me and influenced how I see art and think about art to this day. And at Mondegreen this year, I met someone who's a listener of the show, who lives in Europe, who never gets to see Fish. I don't think that it's fair to say that they don't understand this band just because they don't get to see them all the time. And to me, it's very honoring of the music that we can remove it from its presentation and still see the validity and the importance of what they're making for us. Any Great piece of art can be analyzed and criticized and talked about outside of its first or initial presentation. I think when I read plays, I don't have to see a Shakespeare play. Obviously it's better to see it, just like it's better to see the band live, but I don't have to see it live to understand that it's a masterpiece. So I think that people are not putting enough importance into spreading art like you're saying, Brian, and having people experience it that weren't there, that's a real gatekeeping to me, that seems very annoying. And I think it's just. Also gives continuity to the culture and the art to continue to experience it even if you weren't there and talk about it critically. So to me, I've never really understood that. That argument, because I think it's. It's saying that this art isn't as great as it is.
- [11:04]
Megan
Totally agree with that. Rj, what do you got?
- [11:06]
Brian
Well, I mean, I guess the one point that I'll. That I'll bring up only because there's no real, you know, argument behind it, is that every, every concert I go to is like the best concert I've ever seen, you know? So, like. Yeah, I think that if, if anything, that argues in, in support of what you're both saying, which is like, maybe when we're there, we actually don't really get it as much as, as a hundred percent people who are not there because you're. It is about the social situation. It's about the after party. It's about, like, me when I go to a show. Like last December 29th or 30th, I went to and afterwards I bought everyone at the bar a Michelob Ultra because that's all they had. And I delivered like 10 Michelob Ultras to a couple tables of people. And everyone was like. Everyone was like, this is awesome. So that's. But that's part of it, right? It was an amazing night. Yeah, but I don't. I. It's really hard to go to a show and not be like, that was awesome. I mean, there, there are, there are.
- [12:03]
RJ
Shows and you're fine.
- [12:04]
Brian
A lot of them, but.
- [12:05]
RJ
And to me, that's okay. Like, can I give you guys my sports analogy now?
- [12:10]
Megan
Yes, do it. Oh my God, please do it.
- [12:13]
RJ
But it's not. It's a Meg sports analogy. So it's going to be a little different than what you're expecting.
- [12:19]
Megan
Okay, go on. I'm ready for whatever.
- [12:22]
RJ
Okay. Okay. So when I was in high school, I was a Cheerleader, which may not surprise some of you, but I cheered for the football games and the basketball games. But we were also a very competitive team. And my sophomore year I was on varsity and we placed third in the state championship. There was some controversy about that too. I'm just going to say, because the team that got first dropped two stunts and their decades long coach was on the judging panel. Anyway, it was a controversy. It was fucked up. We didn't drop any stunts, I'm just going to say. But anyway, my junior year before that, they split the team into two different parts. So you could be either on the competitive team that just did competitions, or you could be on the team that cheered at games. And you could be on both teams if you wanted, but you didn't have to be. Okay, I would have. I actually had to stop because I wasn't allowed to do be in the musicals and do cheerleading anymore. The director wouldn't let me, so I had to stop cheerleading. But I would have chosen to just be on the competitive team because I didn't really like cheering for the games. I found it kind of boring. But I tell you this story because this is how I see fish now. So there are the shows, which are special events. They're like a sports game. They're fun, they're important for community building. They're a chance to see your favorite band live. You never know what's going to happen. You could see a show so good that it transcends the simple joy of like dancing and communing and loving music with other people. But that's one team. And I think most of us like play on that team, right? We're all kind of on that team. But then there's another team. And this team is the team that analyzes the music, puts it in historical context. Think about it. Academically and strategically, this is like the competitive team, right? We study, we learn, we dissect, we're critical. We treat this art with the respect it deserves. So just like in my cheerleading program in Ada, Michigan in the mid-90s, you can play on both teams if you want, but saying that one team does it better is bullshit. They're both great. I'm glad I get to play for both teams. I love being at the shows and. But I also really love being on the competitive team because it makes me appreciate the shows better. And to what you were saying, rj, at the shows, just like at the games, like when you're at a high school game and you're cheerleading, you're maybe you're like smoking weed behind the bleachers. You're like thinking about that boy that you want to hang out with or that girl that you want to hang out with or, you know, you're thinking about like, other stuff. You, it's the same way. It shows you're distracted sometimes by the experience, like we're all saying. But when you're in competitive mode, you're like laser focused. You know, you're listening closely, you're thinking about it. It's kind of like Brian goes to the shows. Brian plays for both teams, but he goes to the shows. He's still in competitive mode, which is like what we love about you, Brian, unfortunately. But I don't think you can say like, whatever it is getting it. It's like I think it's different for everybody, but I do think that both teams get it.
- [15:18]
Megan
Yeah, I'm here for, for the Meg sports analogies going forward. Yeah, I think one thing that I'm just noticing in the comments and I, a friend of mine who I was talking about this with this morning actually brought it up was I am not, and I don't know, but I don't want to speak for you guys, but I am not advocating that you should never see this band. Like, I do think that there is something very special about being in the same room with Fish. And I will take every opportunity that I have that I truly do have foreshadowing a future point. I will take every opportunity I do have to see this band live because I love being in the room with them. I love the experience like RJ is talking about. So I, I do think it is important to see them live and I do think that there is a certain, like everyone here is. And my friend said this this morning, this sense of like, like my, my buddy saw 1230, 98 and then he didn't see another show until 22803. And at 22803 he saw the Nassau Tweezer and he was like, that was a life changing experience for me. And he said, you know, and granted, like, I didn't see that jam live, but like, I feel like I felt it, but I also could imagine I can understand and appreciate like being in the room as the band is creating. That's a very, very special thing. So I'm not arguing that like I, I, I get there's like a certain sense of like quote unquote, getting it by seeing them live. It's the, what you're talking about here, Meg, the game to game, the show to show Experience of, like, do you know enough about this band that you understand what's going on with this band even if you're not there every night?
- [16:56]
RJ
Yeah, we all. We all play on the team. You know, we're all cheering at the games. We're all on that team, and that's great. Everybody would rather see this band than not, but it doesn't mean that that team is the only team that gets to exist.
- [17:12]
Brian
I do think that. I do think that Trey, in particular, kind of wants it both ways, though. You know, maybe he wants to be part of both teams, which is totally fine because it's his prerogative. It's his. It's his team at the end of the day. But, like, you know.
- [17:24]
RJ
What do you mean? Wait, what do you mean?
- [17:25]
Brian
Well, I think he. He. I think he, like, now maybe more than ever, or at least more publicly than ever, like, really relishes the. The in person, you know, experience of Fish, like. Like most fans do. And I feel like the band has, like, almost exacerbated this, like, this dynamic of two separate teams because it's like, you know, like, oh, you're like, you were at Mexico. Like, Mexico was amazing. It's like, the best thing of all time. Or, like, you know, like, Vegas. Vegas is the best. This is Trey talking, you know, like.
- [17:58]
Megan
Oh, I see what you mean.
- [17:59]
RJ
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:00]
Brian
I get that being at the show is, like. Is the. Is the peak, you know, but they. But they also built this whole infrastructure around the band that. That is. That supports, like, us all enjoying it.
- [18:11]
RJ
You got to see life.
- [18:12]
Brian
Yeah, but I mean, like, Live Fish and. And all the support that they've given to fan projects and all that, you know, like, that. That allows for us to really experience it in different ways, even if we're not able to be there. So I feel like. I feel like the band is, like, kind of, you know, playing both sides here and saying, like, you gotta come to the shows. It's, like, the best, you know, but also, like, here's this whole ecosystem we built so that you can enjoy it when you're not there.
- [18:38]
Megan
Yeah, but that's like choosing to webcast shows. Like, 20 or 15 years ago, they made a decision that there's never. There's no going back from. Like, they brought it into our living rooms in a way that even with Soundboard recordings, official releases, DVDs, it was not before. And I remember there was. There was a lot of conversation around the time I was on Fantasy Tour at that point around, like, was Phish going to dilute their experience by bringing it into your living room and was it not going to be as intimate and special? And there was this, like, webcast curse that existed up until August 19, 2012, when they finally played like, a killer, killer show on a webcasted show. There was this sense that they were kind of like, mailing it in because they knew that they were getting webcast funds that night. And, like, that was like a legitimate conversation at the time. I think you're right. R.G. jay, he totally wants it two sides because I. Or both ways, because I think, like, if you were to really ask Trey, I think he would just be happy with, like, however many people fit in nectars showing up every night to hear him shred and, you know, play gay mens. Now, granted, that would prevent him from being on Broadway, but, like, I think that, like, that, like, communal experience is as close to like, you know, a drug experience that he can have now where, like, that's a high night to night tonight when he walks on that stage. And as the creator of this, he's probably not feeling the same things scrolling through the live fish library, watching webcasts as we are. So.
- [20:16]
Brian
Yeah.
- [20:19]
Megan
Can I give you my second reason here? And this is like piggyback off of something RJ said.
- [20:23]
Brian
Yeah.
- [20:25]
Megan
Because rj, you more than anyone, I need to respond to this. And I know that you're on a time crunch here. So, like, I need your. Your thoughts. This one.
- [20:32]
Brian
You know why? Do you know why I'm on a time crunch?
- [20:34]
Megan
You're going to see your Phillies, baby.
- [20:36]
Brian
Because watching them on TV in the kitchen, which is what we do most nights, just not as good as being there in person, which we do sometimes.
- [20:42]
RJ
You know, it's a beautiful night for a baseball game.
- [20:47]
Brian
It is.
- [20:47]
Megan
It is. So what you described of that experience of after a show, being at a bar, buying a bunch of Michelob Ultras, which is like the kind of beer you only drink after a show because it's all that the bar has left. That is a very special thing. And it got me thinking. Like, I was thinking about that argument because there is such a thing as like the in show experiences list, like transcendent moment. And I remember feeling this most distinctly on December 30, 2016. I've podcasts about this show, I've written about this show. I won't get into the details, but I was like, in a very intense point in my life and I got to go to this show and every single possible thing fell into place. I Met up with my cousin and went down to Chinatown and we ate tasty long pulled noodles with like wontons. It was fucking awesome. He rolled a joint to smoke through Chinatown. We went to, I forget what museum, but we went to an art museum. We went back to our hotel. I took a nap. I went and met some friends at the Gingerman and had like some killer, killer beers. I walked into the show. Beer bar, great beer bar. 10 minutes before lights dropped, my brother in law had bought us tickets. Mike side like 10 rows up. My brother and his best friend happened to be sitting two rows over from us. Our close friend Sam Timberg happened to be sitting one row in front of us. Like it was a. Everything came together. And then Fish played one of my favorite second sets I've ever seen. And at set break, my friend Craig gave me like the greatest Molly ever. And I was like levitating like 15ft above air as like Trey was playing that solo in the Ghost. Like I had just like an out of body experience. Then we left and we went to Billy Marks west, this bar just near msg. And we ran into a guy who looked like Trey, like red hair and a beard and glasses. But he didn't know who Fish was. And it was like one of those two o' clock in the morning on too many drugs, like, what the fuck man? You know, like type of experiences. We played a lot of pool and we drank like a bunch of Miller High lives. I didn't get home until like sunrise. I had a horrible December 31st show as a result of it. But it was all worth it. Like, that is one of the greatest experiences of my entire life. I nothing could, like, but my experience at that show has nothing to do with where Fish was at. And when I think about that show now, sure I have like the positive personal memory of it. But like, to me, the thing that interests me about that show is that that show comes at this point where the band has come off of probably their worst tour of the last 15 years and then start to put the pieces back together with dicks. This fall tour, that show, Mexico 17 and then the Baker's Dozen. And like modern fish that we know today is born in that era. And like, that's the interesting thing to me when I think back on that show now that's what holds up on the tape. That's why we talk about it. Like, I can share my memory, but like, that's ultimately just my experience. And that ultimately like this argument of like, well, I had a great time, so if you criticize my concert, it means that my concert wasn't as good. I don't think holds a lot of weight because you can have that great experience, but your experience ultimately has nothing to do with where the band was at that point in time or what they were trying to do. A yield. Let you guys respond to that. RJ is like the king of like the concert experience is like the best fucking thing in the world. So I just want to hear your thoughts on that.
- [24:29]
Brian
Yeah, I guess in general, yes, it can be all about the not music part, you know, and that's what's memorable because at the end of the day, concerts are social experiences. Like, it's not the, the point of a concert to me at least is not to go and like, you know, listen to the music in a way that I would when I'm prepping for HFPod. That might be different for some people, but for me it's just going to hang out with people and have fun and, and, and probably like have some experiences where I forget like what song they're playing or I, or I'm reflecting. For me, being at a fish show.
- [25:03]
Megan
Speak for yourself.
- [25:05]
Brian
It's the only place for me where like my really like, can reflect in ways that I, I can't figure out how to in regular life. And I don't. I think that's just 30 years of brain, you know, training or whatever. But yeah, I mean it. There are like, there are shows where we come away from them having had a great time and then realizing that you're not going to really listen to those. Listen to that show again, you know?
- [25:29]
Megan
Right.
- [25:30]
RJ
Yeah.
- [25:30]
Brian
And then there are some. And you're like, holy shit. And I think most of them are in the middle, which is basically leaving and being like, I think that was awesome, but it might not have been. I'll have to re listen to it tomorrow. And then like half the time you're like, actually that, that like nine minute Runaway Gym wasn't like as life changing as I thought in the moment.
- [25:49]
Megan
Oh my God. Trey's so locked in right now. Do you see it?
- [25:52]
RJ
Yeah.
- [25:52]
Megan
This is why you couldn't podcast after 10, 16, 21. I'm learning it right now. Like I just needed to make the case better to you that we had just seen an all timer show. That's what it was.
- [26:03]
Brian
I mean it could have been. Might have end up being like a, you know, something we never listened to again. It was hard to tell in that moment.
- [26:09]
Megan
No, it wasn't.
- [26:11]
RJ
Ryan said. No, it wasn't I think that's like, to me, that's been really freeing because I think I put a lot of pressure on my fish experience. Like, I want it to be amazing and transcendent every time, but I've realized that I can go and have fun. The people that I see shows with, most of them are not hypercritical and they're just there to have, like, my friends are just there to have an awesome night. And they love the band. They've been seeing the band for 30 plus years. They've seen hundreds of shows, but they just want to go and have a good time. And we do, no matter what. So I can go to the Wilmington shows. Last time they played there. I can go to, you know, MSG 1230 last year. I can go to Mondegreen Day 4, and I can have the best time. And it doesn't have to be the most amazing show because I have so many others to listen back to. And when you do hit. When you do hit one of those shows, that is unbelievable. And you get to have an amazing time, like, that's just like a fucking win, right? That's just like, that's. You've just. You've won the lottery that day, and that's what we all want. And every time I walk in to see fish, I hope for that. But I'm also now kind of like, well, no matter what, I'm gonna have a great time. So I think it's kind of freeing because I get to play for both teams, so I can go home and listen to the best hours and hours of the best fish ever. And I can go and see a concert that's super fun. So to me, it's been a little freeing.
- [27:32]
Megan
All right, can I get into, like, the dark and dirty topic of the. Of the. Of the day, right? As RJ's, please. RJ, you're going to have to listen to this afterwards. Are just going to the Phillies game. I don't know who the Phillies are playing today, but I'm gonna say, go Phillies, because they're not playing the Cubs. And so I'm hoping it's. I'm hoping that they win. All right, so we've talked about this sense of. You made this point very well. It's insulting to the artwork to create this argument that you can only experience it one way, that there's clearly multiple ways to experience this. And you're almost like you're taking away from the chance to have a larger conversation with someone about this art by saying that there's one Way to have this conversation, which, if that's your view, fine, but, like, you're limiting the amount of people you can talk about with this and have, like, a great, credible, like, fascinating conversation about art, literally, because you're saying that there's one way to do this. We've also talked about the idea that, like, the personal experience at the show, positive or negative, has no reflection on the actual music, which is kind of, at the end of the day, what we're talking about. Like, your personal experience at a concert. Let's say you and I go to the same show, and objectively, it's a really good show and you have an awesome time. And I don't have a great time. Like, us discussing the music by way of you having, like, the best drugs and me sitting next to some chomper who wouldn't shut up. And it, like, affect me. I didn't like the song that they played, like, three songs before the end of the second set, and you were like, well, whatever. They played a great tweezer, so it all checks out. Like, the interest.
- [29:16]
RJ
You're like, that fourth quarter slump, though. Come on.
- [29:21]
Megan
You know it's real. And you can feel that in the room. Okay, that's a whole different topic.
- [29:28]
RJ
You can feel the fourth quarter, for sure.
- [29:31]
Megan
Okay. Everyone's like, oh, no, I was just having the. No, like, you can feel when they, like, just kind of go into, like, song mode, and everyone's just like, cool, so what are you guys doing afterwards? Like, there's. There's. There's a real thing there, but, like, the conversation after the show, to me, and maybe I'm the one in the wrong here, but it's not so much why you had a great time and I didn't have a great time or why I had a great time and you didn't have a great time, or why we both had bad times or why we both had awesome times. It's like, what did the band do on stage? And how does that. Like, how does that stay with us later? So the third thing I want to talk about, though, is, like, the resource element of going to a fish show and why. I really, really think this conversation is pretty offensive, to be honest. Simply put, it's really, really expensive to go to a fish show. Like, one fish show. Like, it may not be a lot for everyone, but it's a lot, like, for some people to go to these shows. And as a result, like, it's. It's. It's a big commitment when you do this, like, to go to A show in my town is at base level, like, before I bring in really any, like, crazy fun. It's like a 500, 600 night out, if not more. And that's fine and all, like, because this is, you know, what people choose to spend their money on. But, like, that type of experience is something a lot of people have to be, like, they have to pick and choose, you know, and, like, what you have going on in your life may prevent you from going to certain shows, and that may crush you, and that may be something you have to just, like, deal with, but the show still goes on. You may choose not to, like, go someplace because that money can be used towards, you know, a different vacation or towards, like, shit that people need, like, at the end of the day to go to one of these experiences. Like, it's an investment that people have to make. And if you're just, like, on tour. And I don't want to get into, like, how people make their money, but, like, there's like, like, like seeing every single show requires, like, an insane amount of flexibility from a working situation. It requires a lot of, like, money on hand to keep your life at home going, while also your life on the road, which is increasingly more and more expensive if you live far away from where the band is playing. The logistics of that, if you have kids, the costs of that are that much higher. And Fish, as we mentioned, like, they're doing increasingly more and more, like, boutique events where it's kind of like a VIP package experience to go to Mexico or to go to the Sphere or like, in some cases, like msg, the. The festivals. Like, these are, you know, for some people, it's like, very easy to make happen. More power to you. For a lot of people, though, it's like, it's a ton of picking and choosing. And, you know, one thing I've been thinking about over the last year is, like, this conversation continues to, like, hang out in the periphery, and I hear it every so often. And then, like, you know, someone will send us, like, a screenshot from, like, online conversations about it. Like, I was very, very lucky to go to Mexico 2024. I was able to make it happen. I was able to get time off of work. I was able to make it work financially, and I got down. I was able to get coverage for my kids, and, like, I got two of the greatest jams I'll ever see in my entire life. But when I got home, I texted with a friend of mine who watched from the couch, and, like, he knows just as much about this band as I do. And he had very similar, like, deep dive, enthusiastic thoughts about this stuff as I did. And like, the only difference between our experience is like, I paid a premium for it. Now I don't regret paying that premium. I chose to do that. But like, that is not something that everyone has the capability to do. And the more that this band does it, which more power to them, like, people are coming. Fine. But it gets back to like, your comment about, like, there are two teams to this. Like, there are people that can be there and like, can make it happen on a regular basis. Yeah, but that is not like, like we're living in almost like two different worlds. If, like, you can do this literally night after night after night or like a significant amount of times throughout a year, this is something that you can make happen. Like, that's a rare thing from a percentages standpoint. And so the idea that because things work out that you're able to be there and other people cannot, means that you completely get this and they don't. I just find like, pretty offensive and just like very short sighted in terms of like, what we're actually dealing with here from like a financial standpoint.
- [34:50]
RJ
I completely agree. And I also think it's limiting to the community too. I think, like you said, there's only so many people that can actually afford this. And so we're only going to be surrounded by certain people who can afford this if it continues to be like that. And there's a lot of talk about, like, lack of diversity in this community. And it, you know, there is a reason for that sometimes. And that is because these events are outrageously expensive. And I see that even happening to other genres of music too. Like when I was a teenager, I could go and see music for like $20. And now not even. I think my first fish show was $18.50.
- [35:30]
Megan
That's another thing. Yeah.
- [35:32]
RJ
To get my daughters to see a show that they want to see. I am not kidding. One ticket might cost $250 if I'm lucky. Like, it is outrageous. And they don't see that much live music because the bands they want to see cost a fortune. And that is heartbreaking. And I really see that happening in this, you know, as our society becomes more segregated financially, it's not healthy. And I totally agree with you. And I. I sometimes get really frustrated with the amount of texts I get from people I love in this community that are like, why are you not coming to this? Or I can't believe you're missing this. And it's like, well, despite not being able to afford everything, I also have another life that I have. I have to actually go to work. I actually take care of my children and negotiate time away from my family. And I think that it's definitely something that is frustrating and also fairly elitist to think that like you should, people should be able to do this. And I do think that a lot of people make choices to spend their money on seeing fish, like only do vacations for fish. And so I think that is also a time that they might get annoyed when people are critical of that music because they're. They've sacrificed a lot to maybe do that. And I get that, that makes sense to me. But I also think it's knowing that they had to sacrifice, then they should also be understanding of people that, that don't get to do it and still get to have whatever opinions they want about it.
- [37:01]
Megan
And I mean, I think like, this gets back to his. Like, the band is so successful that they have put themselves in a position where they can bring their experiences to people in a multitude of ways where you can be there. And they will play in most markets in a two year stretch of time. Some, if you're lucky enough to live in, they will come to on an annual basis. And the other shows, you know, in most like, major markets in America, like fish will do like a loop through your city and then something like within the region that it's travelable. Like, I think that they really think about, like, where do our fans live? So like, for me, like, I considered going to part of this west coast run because they probably won't be out to the west coast for another two years. It's a quick two hour flight for variety of reasons, I couldn't make it work. But like, they try to accommodate that, which I totally give them. On the other side, they try to accommodate for, like, we're going to play all of these shows and if you can't make all of them, you can at least watch them for a pretty fair price, you know, from a streaming standpoint. So, like, I think the band gets that there's such a drive to see them that people are willing to pay the $10,000 premium to go and see them in Mexico or the VIP premium to go see them at Sphere or, you know, like, I went to Magna ball 10 years ago. Like, that was the most expensive fish ticket I'd bought at the time. You're playing, you're paying a premium to go into.
- [38:46]
RJ
Yeah, mine to Green is not, Was not Cheap, right?
- [38:49]
Megan
And, like, you gotta buy all this stuff, but, like, to your point of, like, choice, like, you. You make that work, if you can make that work. But I think the band knows, like, so a. The, like, fans are willing to pay a premium for this. So, like, we're gonna charge them and give them a really great experience. I think we would all agree that they give you that really great experience in those settings. But also for those who can't be there, there is a way for you to experience this. And I totally get it. Like, it's not. It doesn't. It's a different experience. It's a very different experience. But at the root of it, that thing will end. The concert will end. Five minutes later, the recording will appear, and anyone who's ever going to hear this music again is going to hear it the way that that recording is. They're not going to hear it the way that you felt it in a field or in that stadium.
- [39:44]
RJ
Yeah. And that's so beautiful. I think it's so awesome that we get to take it with us and say what we want about it and analyze it. And, you know, I think they learned very early on from the Grateful Dead that giving access to art is the way to build continuity and art and lastingness. And I'm. It's so fantastic that they do it. And I agree. I think that it's something that people really need to, I don't know, I guess understand the privilege that comes with being able to be at these shows without feeling gatekeeping about the experience and the music.
- [40:21]
Megan
I think that's it. I think that's it. Those are my reasons. I want to give some shout outs here. Do you have any additional reasons that you want to share for why you feel the way that you do?
- [40:31]
RJ
No. I really put all my energy into the sports analogy, so I hope it hits.
- [40:34]
Megan
Sports analogy was killer. I want to give a shout out to Forever Conscious Research Channel, who has been saying throughout the entire conversation, they live in Florida, where Fish never comes. So this conversation is almost moot for them. And I feel for you.
- [40:53]
RJ
Yeah.
- [40:54]
Megan
I lived in South Korea for two years during Fish's 3.0 era, and I experienced both of those years, late 2009 and all of 2013, completely from afar. And I remember wanting to be at a Fish show. But I was also so thankful that literally every single concert that they played, they were webcasting. It was one of those, like, it was really taught me. Well, they weren't webcasting 09, but in 13 they were in 09 I was using Mixlure phone streams.
- [41:24]
RJ
That is commitment, Brian. That is like serious every show. That's amazing. Yeah. I remember when I lived abroad in early 3.0. When I came back it was. I remember I came back in 2014 and went to the Randalls island shows and I remember just being like, this is America, baby. Like, it just felt like I was like back in America. It just felt so good. Yeah.
- [41:47]
Megan
Another good point here from Rick Lipa. One thing to consider with Fish these days is they've reduced the number of shows per tour and the tickets and everything is more expensive. That alone can limit the opportunities to go show. Like their approach is different. This is very different from like I've seen a lot of comments here and I think it's, it's very apt because this is tied in. Touring in the 90s was a very different thing. You know, the experience of. Even when I started seeing them in the early 2000s, like it was a lot more affordable to see them on a night to night basis. I think my first set of tickets were like $26. But I remember reading the book, I think it was called Run like an Antelope and it was about this guy who went on tour with Fish in 99 and he was describing, he was going, he was doing a run through of like how much his rental car costs, how much it costs stay in a motel, what it costs to eat, what the tickets cost, what he could sell this and that. And I was reading the book as like a 15 year old and I was just like, man, I just need like two more years and I will have the freedom and I can go and do this and that experience doesn't exist anymore. Yes, young people, you were describing your daughters and like the ability to just like get in the car and go and see like 10 different fish shows in like a two week stretch that just doesn't exist. Well.
- [43:12]
RJ
And that's how I fell in love with America for real. Like was following the grateful dad in the summers and that sense of adventure and that sense of going new places and following a band that to me is really magical and really American. And I feel sad that kids can't do that now. And maybe they can and they figure out how to do it. But I guarantee it's kids that are pretty privileged who can afford to do that now. And that's fine, that's great for them, but it is limiting and kind of sad because it is such an incredible experience to get to follow something that you love and have a Community created around you. It's really special.
- [43:50]
Megan
And I just want to follow up because I agree with you and I want to follow up with something Rick said here, which the reduce summer shows these days. It's helping keep the music fresh. I think this is like, this is an interesting duel for this because, you know, at the end of the day, I think that the band sounds. We've talked gushingly about the last couple of years. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they seem to have figured out exactly what the balance is. How many shows do we need to play, how regularly do we need to play to be in a position where we're able to stay consistent and sound like a band that is like figuring out something new on a night to night basis before we burn each other out and before we burn ourselves out. Like there was a long time where we'd have these like six month gaps where it was just like the band would have to start from scratch almost. We're not in that era anymore. And so I agree, like, I think that the, the balancing act, I think that for me personally, it's just put me in a position of like, you know, I'm gonna go see them when they come through Colorado and that's probably it. Maybe in a couple of years I'll go and do another web west coast show. But like, I don't know the reality of like where my life personally is at and how much the band is playing. It seems to cater to webcasting more than it does to this experience of like catching every show in person.
- [45:15]
RJ
Yeah, we're in a good spot with them. And I think you're right now that we, or at least I've decided that the latest evolution for Fish is consistency. I think they have struck the right balance and it makes the streaming experience great. I think that it bonds community. When I get to text with you and with friends when I'm watching the show, like, I love that. And it's different if I'm at the show. I'm more immersed in the experience. But being at home, I get to really think about it while, while I'm. While I'm watching, which is fun. It's different. It's like reading a book and talking to someone about the book. You know, you get to understand it better because you're, you know, you're experiencing it together. So I think it deepens the sense of community in a lot of ways.
- [45:56]
Megan
I agree. And we got a great we. Yeah, I agree. That's one thing like I. One of my favorite fish experiences ever. And this is, like, gets back to the, like, individual experience versus show quality. Like, I webcasted 7 3115, which has this amazing Kill Devil Falls. It's a great show overall. I had a great time sitting on Twitter talking to people about that show, because all Twitter was, like, losing their minds. Like, holy shit, I cannot believe fish sounds this good on Kill Devil Falls. Like, are you guys kidding me? And now they're playing Twist, and now they're playing Reba and Gin in really weird places. What is going on right now? Like, that second set online was so much fun to take in on a really, really bad. Was a parachute. What was the app that we use? We use this, like, old inserted app within Twitter. Periscope. That's what it was called.
- [46:54]
RJ
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [46:55]
Megan
Long gone now, but, you know, it was like, someone's phone. It was, like, really rickety throughout the show. And, like, the lights would, like, come weirdly, and, like, sometimes it would go out, but, like, then it would come, and they'd still be jamming. That's, like, priceless sort of community building right there.
- [47:10]
RJ
Yeah. And, like, experiencing art as it's being made in the moment, even if you're not there, that's. That's magical. Like, that's the future to me. You know? Like, it used to be that art was something that you only got to have. You know, if you think about, like, Beethoven or Mozart, they were only making art for rich people to experience. Right. And it was in this, like, in these special, hallowed places. And. And now you can be at your home, your apartment, your sister's couch. You can be anywhere, and you can experience once in a lifetime art being created. It's fucking awesome.
- [47:43]
Megan
I'm like, a third of the way through this immersive book on the revolutions of 1848, and they're talking about part of what helped spread revolution during that period in time was the spread of reproductions of paintings and that people were suddenly able to have paintings in their homes and, like, have, like, copies of paintings. And, you know, you could go and see them much many more places. And, like, the. The inspiration that it caused was, like, it was. It was a realization in image that there were times when people stood up to the powerful and that the powerful lived these lives that they'd been rumored to live, because these are, like, court artists who are painting these people in royal palaces and whatnot. So you got to connect this all to sports. I got to connect this all to being 19th century European politics. So I think we've had a good podcast here.
- [48:41]
RJ
Nailed it.
- [48:42]
Megan
Do you have anything else that you want to talk about?
- [48:45]
RJ
I just said I really appreciate this conversation. It's really fun and I appreciate everybody in the chat add so much.
- [48:52]
Megan
Likewise. We're all doing this virtually. Imagine if we told you that to see an HF pod episode you had to fly out to Denver, Colorado every single week and talk amongst yourselves while we were talking. That would be a very strange experience. This is one of those beautiful things that is only possible via the digital age, so I'm thankful for it as well. I appreciate the questions, the feedback. I think our conclusion at the end is there is no wrong, but there also is no right.
- [49:23]
RJ
You say so Brian.
- [49:27]
Megan
We will see you guys. We will see you guys again. I'm just pulling up our schedule because RJ I know. Read this here. Okay. Next week we will be back with our Mount Rushmore episode of Down With Disease. We will also be back. Is it next week? Next week we're doing block Blockbuster Card, right?
- [49:49]
RJ
I think so. Yeah. I think so.
- [49:50]
Megan
Next week, debut episode of Blockbuster Card on a library card feed. If you're looking for good books, we've talked about a bunch of books over there since November. We dipped into some short story collections as well. We're going to continue there. But we're also introducing Blockbuster Card which as you guessed it is about us talking about movies that we watch on the same couches that we watch fish shows. So thank you guys. You guys are all the best. We will see you guys next week for Down With Disease.
- [50:22]
RJ
See you then. Thanks everybody. Sam.
- [51:02]
Megan
Osiris.
- [51:05]
Brian
Plan on flying it's time.
- [51:08]
Megan
To upgrade to a real ID because.
- [51:10]
Brian
In order to board domestic flights your driver's license or state issued ID must be a real ID or you'll need another ID acceptable form of identification.
- [51:20]
Megan
So don't wait. Find out how to get your real ID@tsa.gov realID that's tsa.gov realID or visit.
- [51:30]
Brian
Your local DMV and then you'll be cleared for takeoff.
- [51:35]
Megan
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