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- [00:03]
Narrator/Advertiser
As a raider scavenging a derelict world.
- [00:06]
Brian
You settle into an underground settlement. But now you must return to the surface, where arc machines roam. If you're brave enough, who knows what you might find. Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video game. Buy now for PlayStation 5, Xbox Series.
- [00:26]
Narrator/Advertiser
X and S and PC rated T for teen.
- [00:31]
Megan
This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Gift. Magical mornings with Nespresso Vertuo Pop compact and stylish Virtuop is made to meet every morning coffee craving. From espresso to coffee, hot or iced at the click of a button. And celebrate the season with Nespresso's limited edition coffee flavors. Sweet almond and hibiscus, cinnamon and candied tamarind and festive double espresso. Magic in the making. Shop the holiday gift collection exclusively@nespresso.com.
- [01:03]
Mike Ayers
Osiris.
- [01:13]
RJ
What's up, Everybody? Welcome to HFPod. This is RJ. I'm here with Brian and Megan. We have a special guest today, Mike Ayers, author of the book Sharon in the Groove. Hey, Mike. How you doing?
- [01:23]
Mike Ayers
Good. How y' all doing?
- [01:25]
Brian
Doing very well. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for coming on, man.
- [01:28]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's awesome.
- [01:31]
RJ
We are looking forward to chatting with you about the book and thank you for sharing it with us and with everyone. I know you've been talking about this book a lot on some other Osiris pods and doing some other interviews. I'm glad you're out there, you know, able to spread the word.
- [01:45]
Mike Ayers
It's cool. Yeah. I mean, you know, such a fun era, like, can talk about this till, I don't know, the day is long. So anybody that wants to chit chat about the 90s and theorize about what's going on and, you know, read and share some fun, insane stories from that era is a good thing.
- [02:17]
RJ
For sure. Yeah. Well, let's. Let's just hop in. I think we have a bunch of questions for you, Brian. Do you want to. Do you want to kick us off?
- [02:25]
Brian
Yeah. Mike really enjoyed sharing in the groove. So for me, I came into the jam band scene just after this ended. I got my first fish tapes in the summer 2001. So the 90s have always been this kind of halo period where, like, I can't touch it, but I can read about it. I can listen to everything. The people that were there, they know. I'm curious, like, just to jump into this, like, how did you first get into jam bands? What was your life like within this scene in the 90s? And what's it been like, you know, over the last 20 years.
- [03:01]
Mike Ayers
Yeah. Look, this may come as a shock, but the Grateful Dead were my gateway.
- [03:11]
Brian
There you go.
- [03:11]
Megan
Yeah.
- [03:12]
Mike Ayers
Early 90s, you know, in high school, you know, everybody started to find class. You know, what was considered classic rock. You know, you're Zeppelin, you're Dead, you're Pink Floyd. Like, everybody was obsessed with Pink Floyd, the Doors, you know, you'd go to the. The mall store where they sold a bunch of, like, rock T shirts and, you know, the kids wear, you know, the Nirvana in Utero shirt all around these days. That was the Doors back then, right?
- [03:45]
Brian
Yep.
- [03:46]
Mike Ayers
And, you know, and alternative music was coming up, you know, Chili Peppers and. Or what was billed as alternative. Chili Peppers and Pearl Jam. So it was super eclectic. And, you know, we just started to. All of us just started to listen to, you know, all those older bands, I guess, if you will, that a lot of the alt rock folks were citing as well in interviews. And, you know, the Dead just started to, you know, percolate pretty high. You know, American Beauty was like, on everybody's CD player. And, you know, Relics magazine started pointing the way towards not only Dead tapes. I literally remember. I was. I seriously, I was really cool to, like, three people because I wrote to some random person in the back of Relics, like, please send me tapes. And they did. And so, like, I was like three other people in the school thought I was like, the king.
- [05:03]
Brian
A true subculture.
- [05:05]
Mike Ayers
That was really. It, you know, like, we. I saw my first dead show in 93 at the Cap center. And it was just kind of, you know, just saw as many as I could since then. I was in high school, so I couldn't see a ton. But, you know, when I first went to college in 94, you know, fish was coming up and I bought Hoist based on ad I saw on Relics. And, you know, I went to the Patriot center in fall 94, like the day after their tour started at Lehigh. And, you know, it just. I don't know, they were just a band that, you know, they were like our age or like 10 years old. Yeah, they weren't like my parents band and everybody there felt the same thing, you know, two or three weeks later, I was driving up to UVA to see. See them in Charlottesville. Like, I. Like, I just caught on immediately. And yeah, it was. I don't know, it was really, I don't know, uphill from there.
- [06:13]
Megan
Like just up or down, whichever way you want to say, right?
- [06:16]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, whatever way you want to say. But it was. It Was pretty, I got pretty deep into it. And fall 95, I had this really amazing experience where a friend of mine, her and I drove from Blacksburg, Virginia to Kalamazoo, Michigan without tickets on 1027 95, like that Thursday night into Friday. And we got there super early. Like we got into the parking lot lot, like at 11am they didn't know what was going on. It was like a hockey rink, minor league hockey rink. And I was like, oh, yeah, we got tickets at Will Call. Like we're just, you know, and they're like, oh, okay. We didn't have tickets at Will Call, but this woman approached us from, from, from the venue. We were just like hanging out at our car and no one was around and she was like, just talking to us about, you know, who we are and why we're there. And she said, you know, like, I work for the band and every show we come out and we get these, we get fish kids that don't have tickets. And you know, if you want, you can come back and like wash dishes and scrub potatoes and we'll give you.
- [07:41]
Megan
That's amazing.
- [07:42]
Mike Ayers
And so we were like, oh, yes, of course, of course we'll do that. And we did do that. And you know, we're like 19, 20 years old and you know, backstage that day and it was fantastic. And that night, you know, they would feed all the kids, right? And it was only not all the kids, like one or two. You know, it wasn't like, it was a free for all. It was like very, very select. But we were eating dinner and the, the head cook, she was just like, you know, are you guys going to Chicago? And we were like, well, we don't have tickets. It's been, it's, you know, it's been sold out for a long time, but we sure would love to go. And she was like, well, why don't you just come and cook? And so we did. And from there we just like, like kind of had this amazing hookup where we could just go and like wash dishes as like a 21, 22 year old kid and exchange for passes. So we did that for like the back half of the 90s. And so it's all to say that I got super deep into it and was running around a lot and washing and a lot of dishes and scrubbing a lot of potatoes.
- [09:10]
Brian
I love that fish. Who knew that sort of communal engagement really comes across in the book. As you expand beyond Phish and as you look at a lot of the other artists, like that idea of we're all in this together, band and fans alike, as we're rising as this. So you have these really formative experiences. You've been writing for some time now. What made you want to write this book? What made you want to tell this story?
- [09:42]
Mike Ayers
Well, you know, I've been into this world for a while. You know, back in the 90s, you know, at least where I was.
- [09:54]
Brian
You.
- [09:55]
Mike Ayers
Know, everything was very segregated on your, like, musical identity. And, you know, if you were, if you were like a Fish kid, like a Hacky Sack kid, you know, you kind of got made fun of by the Fugazi kids and the punk is all that sort of stuff. Like, things just didn't. Like, things were kind of separate and. But in that world, like, you know, if you knew about the musical prowess that these people had, you know, not only like Phish, but just all the bands that are talking about throughout, throughout that decade, you know, you kind of knew and you kind of like, loved that. They were a little bit of underdogs, right? Like, they didn't get on mtv. They were. A lot of them were shunned by radio. The record label they signed, they signed the deals, but, like, some of them got dropped. Like, it wasn't like super glorious, you know, some of them, you know, you know, fish just went on to like, keep releasing records on Electra. But, you know, someone that worked there for like, in A and R, she told me she was like, we kind of gave up on them. Meaning, not in a bad way, but, like, we knew that they were going to do their thing and 70,000 people were going to show up in the middle of New York to see them on a weekend with no openers. And we're just going to have to be okay with that, right? They're not going to sell a billion CDs, but they're, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're good in our. Good enough in our stable. So, you know, to tell the story, it's really just, you know, fast forward, like 30 years, 25 years. I'd read, like, Meet Me in the Bathroom. I'd read Please Kill Me. Like there's some really great. Everybody Loves Our Town, like, some really great oral histories about scenes. And I was just like, you know, no one's done this. It would be great if I could do this. That would be, you know, it would be amazing. There is a story to tell. There's a story to tell of like a DIY culture that rose to have 80,000 people show up in the Middle of Florida on New Year's Eve. Like, that's. It's phenomenal. No other bands or scenes were doing that. And, you know, there's ups and downs. There were, like, just so many stories with, like, record labels and clubs and drugs and all that sort of stuff that was unique to these people that were there. And they were very unique at what you were just saying. Like, I thought that needed. I thought that should be. Should be told. Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:59]
Megan
Is there a reason you wanted to do it as an oral history as opposed to a traditional kind of biography or history book?
- [13:06]
Mike Ayers
Yes. I have a theory, and you all tell me what you think. I had a theory that people would like to hear it from the horse's mouth over me, just riding through it. Especially when you're talking to, like, 150 people. There's so many good voices, and everybody speaks in a certain way. And I was very particular about leaving everybody's dialect in so you could get a sense of the way people spoke. Like, Billy Martin speaks very differently than Derek Trucks. And, you know, hopefully, like, that. All that regional. Like JB from Panic speaks very differently than Trey from Fish. Like, they have this, like, dialect that I think I just thought people would love. They would love to hear it and experience it that way versus treating it a little bit more like, academic or just like. Like biographical. You know, I had read the Fish book, and, you know, it was fine. It was. It's all good.
- [14:17]
Brian
But the one from 09.
- [14:21]
Mike Ayers
Yeah. A much longing to hear or to read the Trey book.
- [14:25]
Brian
Sure.
- [14:27]
Megan
It's interesting, especially since you're kind of talking a lot about how place impacted these bands and how where they're from really impacted it and how this scene kind of grew out of each different area and region. And so that makes sense to me that you want to kind of preserve that and those voices from those regions.
- [14:42]
Mike Ayers
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's just fascinating, too, like, how, like, as the decade progress, they all kind of coalesced and, you know, a little bit of, like, the island of the Misfit Toys situation. Like, they had. Like, they were different, and they were different from what was, quote, unquote, mainstream. And they kind of found each other and helped push each other along. Like, some of the favorite parts that I. Like, one of the favorite parts that I stumbled upon was just the mentorship that Fish provided to, like, Modesty, Martin Wood and Strange Folk. I had no idea that that was a situation. I had a. I knew that they were. You know, honestly, I didn't know how Much like Fish and MMW interacted when MMW was starting to really spike. And so I started, you know, I asked the guys about that and, you know, they were just. Them just saying, like, how gracious they were about, like, you know, just learning how to tour and, you know, just like keeping books and just. Just all the things that you don't know unless someone tells you. And they were. I think they were trustworthy, you know. Yeah, they're super trustworthy. And strange folk as well. Like, they were. They were really popping in the mid to late 90s, and so they had a lot of presence in Burlington and Fish was still based out of there, so they were giving them all of the scoop on what to do and what not to do. Even the manager of MO getting the record contract. And he, like, he called, you know, several managers, Fish's manager, one of them, and like, what do I. What do I do? Like, they want all of this stuff.
- [17:03]
Megan
Yeah.
- [17:04]
Mike Ayers
So they could. I thought. I just thought that was so cool and genuine that, like, no one. Like no one, really. I personally didn't know that. I had no idea that.
- [17:16]
Megan
Yeah, me neither. I think we think about Trey as like an elder statesman now, but it's amazing to see how much he was doing that in the past. I didn't know that about MMW either. And that was some of my favorite parts of the book, was learning more about them and how, you know, being this improvisational jazz group, but how much they learned and benefited from the jam band scene. It was really fun to see those connections and to see that and to see how much. I think Fish also kind of was always looking for that mentorship from the Grateful Dead and never really got it. I think management got some of it, but I don't think they had that kind of, you know, bigger band showing them the way. And I think it's amazing that they did that for so many young bands.
- [17:55]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, yeah. I think they wanted to pass on what they learn and without having. Having that. I mean, a lot of these acts, they, you know, they were just kind of thrown into the deep end in a lot of ways. Like, I just thought it was phenomenal that Blues Traveler is playing a really, really crappy club in New York, and then at the beginning of like 90 or 89, and then by the end of the year, they're opening for the Almonds or somebody during New Year's out West. Like, the learning curve is steep. You know, being a 20 something kid, just kind of, you know, figuring it out as you're going along, you know, it's. It's not. It's not. It's not easy. So. Yeah, I thought it was. It was. It was very. I don't know, it was just amazing that they. That they. That they did that with, like, no expectations.
- [19:08]
Brian
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Mike Ayers
You don't. Like, there's nothing in return. Yeah.
- [19:14]
Brian
I mean, well, it's interesting that, like, because there are a couple cautionary tales in here, you know, I think specifically, like God Street Wine and Strange Folk. It felt like the growth that they had was not sustainable to who the band was at the time. And it led to challenges within the band, some of them breaking up. You also get into. I mean, Mo's record label situation is so fascinating. They made so much money on all this hype, essentially. And you could kind of see, you could hear in the band that they were like, I guess, like, we gotta sign on the dotted line, like, we gotta move our career forward. And, like, thankfully for a band like Mo, they were able to figure out that is not for us. How do we get out and back to where we want to be? And that feels like it was a very calculated. Not in like a negative way, but, like, you know, if we're going to survive as a band, like, this is not the pathway forward for us. Did any of those types of stories of, like, growth and success or challenges that they were dealing with based on being on the road or record label, you know, misunderstanding of who these bands are? Do any of those hit differently, you know, 30 years later?
- [20:32]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, like, the. The case with Mo is super interesting. I mean, you know, you couldn't, like, go to a jam show in 96 without hearing the word Mo. Right. It was just like. It was like a. It was pretty.
- [20:45]
Brian
Talk about their logo that, like, you could see a T shirt on either.
- [20:48]
Mike Ayers
Side type of thing. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty ubiquitous. And, you know, Al told me this, like, one of, like, the best stories is that, you know, he. You know, he remembers, like, meeting the president of Sony and she's like, you know, I don't really get you. I don't really get. I really get you or your band, but Michael likes you. So that's. I guess that's good. That's like, that's good enough. I trust him. And he was like, I remember walking out there being, like, so high on life. Like, you know, I signed with a record label and I have so much creative freedom and creative control, and this is going to be great. And then he was like. And then three months later, I was telling the story to somebody. And she was like, you don't think it's a massive problem that the head of the label hates your band? And he was like, oh, yeah, that's not good. So it's like, yeah, there is. I thought Mo was going to be huge, to be honest. Like, I thought they were primed to be basically the next Primus. You know, they were very like Basie, like, very kind of like, Like Primus was jokey, like, and they kind of got. They were pretty MTV for a while, you know, kind of lumped in with like the alt rocks of the world. But. But, you know, they, they really didn't. And there was just this, you know, God street and strange folk to a degree. And Mo, there was just a lot of like, oh, they have a crowd. Oh, they sold out tickets. They don't have a record label. Let's just snap them up. We'll figure it out. And so there's a lot of like throwing spaghetti against the wall to like, figure out not only this genre, but a lot of genres and. And then, you know, you get dropped and then you're kind of like, well, what are you supposed to do? You know, luckily for Mo, that they. They really, I think just. They just knew how to play live from. From day one. They, I think, really smartly said yes to that Further festival after Jerry died. Like the 97 further festival where they were like playing like the 2pm or 1pm slot. But, you know, they just told me that that that was massive for them because Further was done like, like the tours like, were got really, really big. So it just got their name, you know, they got their name out there to where the audience was if it wasn't going to be at radio. And so they kept that, they kept that trajectory, you know, by, like when Phish was wrapping things up at the end of 2001 or, sorry, end of 2000 and taking a little bit of a break. Like, they were like. Them and String Cheese were like, they were going. Yeah, yeah, like, they were going. You know, Mo played two nights at Radio City Music hall in 2006. Yeah, you know, so like, like, they, they. It's amazing. It's. It's amazing to me that they, you know, had that experience with the record label that didn't work out for them because, you know, I'm sure when you're, you know, you're a kid musician and, you know, a major label wants to give you hundreds of thousands of like, like, that is like, it's making it. It's making it especially in the 90s, like you've made it.
- [24:41]
Megan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So do you think labels and management have changed in their perspective? Like we think about the young jam band scene that's so big right now with bands like Eggie and Goose and Dogs and Pile. And do you think labels have now decided, like, we're going to allow these bands to just build their live performances and we're not going to expect radio play and we're still going to sign them, we're still going to. Do you think that they've learned anything from the Experience?
- [25:12]
Mike Ayers
I mean, I don't think they do. I mean Goose is still, is, is still independent. I'm sure they've turned down things at this point. Dogs I don't think has a label, you know, the bluegrassy leaning ones still, you know, they typically sign to like, you know, rounder or some 30 Tigers imprint and. But those, those labels I think know the value of building up, you know, a live audience and you know, staying with somebody for, for the long haul. Like. Yeah, I guess, like, you know, Jason Isbell is, you know, I was listening to Southeastern earlier today and he's still on that same thing, but he's done really, really well and just, that's like a 10, 11, 12 year climb that has just really put in the live work. So, you know, I, I think, I think they're. I, I would surmise that, you know, the major labels that were signing jam bands back in the 90s have given up. I would guess, you know, they probably don't like the fact that Goose sells out or you know, packs MSG to the gills and. But you know, they're at the end of the day like, I don't know, they have bean counters that are doing the math.
- [26:46]
Megan
Yeah, well, and I guess the fans don't. I don't know if the fans really want them to be on big labels either. Like, I think of all the heat that Goose has gotten for seeming like over managed or like they're, you know, from the jam band Illuminati, like, you know, Shapiro Plants, like it's this joke. But I think the fans really want to see that DIY approach. They really want this authenticity that if they feel like is at all compromised, bothers them. Which is interesting.
- [27:14]
Mike Ayers
I think it is. Yeah. The Jamban Illuminati.
- [27:22]
Megan
It's like one of my favorite things. It's so stupid.
- [27:25]
Brian
I mean it is interesting how much things have changed because when you think about when this book ends almost like with Big Cyprus and kind of it ends in that way of like, well then like the 2000s, everything, you know, like, what happens then? And like you could write essentially like three or four different oral histories of this. Tracking the history of the jamban scene since the 90s. Because in the 2000s you get Fonaroo, which is basically here we're going to create Glastonbury for jam band fans which is now 20 years later become just a mega festival that. I don't even think there's jam bands on the lineup anymore. But you know that then you had a bunch of, you know, you should get early in the history of Umphries McGee and of the Disco Biscuits in the late 90s. Two bands that would grow pretty substantially throughout the 2000s. What Meg's mentioning with like Goose and Fish and Eggy and Billy Strings. A lot of these bands don't seem to need what bands in the 90s thought they needed. Because as you were emerging in the 90s, there was a perception of like, well, if you can sell out an arena, you can sell. You can go three times platinum and like now you're making money for the record label and for yourself and you can get on Ms. Mtv. But there was this question that nobody was really asking themselves when they were signing these bands of like, is this just niche entertainment? Like, is this like for a small number of people who are going to throw everything into this scene? Or is this for everyone? And it feels like there's a little bit more comfort now. But I'm curious, do you see it like the evolution over the last 20 years as being more in favor of these bands? Or do you think that there are still limitations for them at this point in time the way that there were in the 90s for some of them.
- [29:10]
Mike Ayers
I think they, it's. It feels like they have. By not being beholden to a record or a record cycle or like this will this single be at the radio and all that. So not being beholden to that, I think is. I think that's a really great thing that, you know, the acts of the 90s certainly had to think about. They had people asking them about and you know, God street was super interesting because, you know, I think one, one of them told me, like we just didn't know like they had this like two headed front, front man scenario. It was like Aaron and Low. And they didn't really know whether they wanted to be a pop rock radio act or yeah, a jam band, like, you know, festival, you know, whatever act that. A live act and. And that essentially screwed them because the Audience themselves didn't know what to think either. When these two different factions that emerged at your show, they didn't. They didn't really know Spin Doctors are the same way. You know, like, they. Like. They essentially had to play the MTV act after they broke on that. So I would. I would think that the acts now, they don't have to. They don't have to stress about those. That sort of stuff as much as. Look, I'm not saying it's not difficult, like.
- [30:59]
Brian
Sure, yeah, of course.
- [31:00]
Megan
Yeah, yeah. It's a different expectation, though, right? I think in the 90s, it was almost like a curse. If you had a hit. Like, I always wonder, the alternate world where Fish had, like, a couple. A couple singles that hit, like, what would they have become? And did they avoid, like, Spin Doctors and a little bit of Blues Traveler fate, too, by not having that? You know, I think Dave Matthews was able to push through that despite it, and maybe Fish would have anyway. But I always wonder. It was almost like a curse.
- [31:27]
Mike Ayers
They did. No, yeah, it completely was. They did, like, push. Push at that. And, you know, that same woman that worked in A R, I remember her telling me about how, like, it was like pulling teeth to get them to do any sort of promo or press. They just were not interested in it.
- [31:48]
Megan
Oh, yeah. And if they did it, they'd sabotage it, right? They'd wear, like, tutus and be in, like, a swimming pool, like, you know, looking ridiculous. Like, they really, like. Yeah, they made it hard. But I think that was kind of their saving grace in a lot of ways. I don't know if you think there's something else that was different about Fish that kind of made them. I mean, there's so many things that made them successful but made them kind of move past the. And have that longevity that so many of these other bands didn't.
- [32:14]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, I mean, I. You know, they're. They're outsiders, right? They were super smart. You know, y' all were just talking about Tom Robbins. These are, like the. The kids that, you know, read Tom Robbins in the back of the back of the room.
- [32:32]
Megan
Totally.
- [32:33]
Mike Ayers
They're nerds and those sorts of things. And, you know, just, like, there was a lot of surrealism in his work like that. You know, there's. You know, they created lore, they created, like, desire, they created community. They created all of these things that these other bands were doing, some of it, but they weren't leaning into it so hard. And, you know, it was like if you were. If you were a Fish, obsessive and still are efficient. It's just like, you know, it's like dnd, you know, it's just like it's this if you know it, like, it's the ultimate if you know, you know, mentality.
- [33:21]
Brian
Yeah.
- [33:22]
Mike Ayers
And feeling, like when you create that feeling for people and then can replicate it in different ways every single night, like, you have a recipe for just a healthy obsession. It's great.
- [33:39]
Brian
Yeah.
- [33:41]
RJ
Mike, I just wanted to ask about some fish stuff. I feel like over the past five years or so, Trey has become, like, so much more of an open book. Like, it was so hard to get stories out of Trey, and then, like, you know, between the SiriusXM stuff and all these profiles and now he's just like, he'll basically just talk to anyone and tell them lots of stories, which is awesome. But I feel like so much of the stuff we. We now know through, you know, very recent history. Is there anything, like, really surprising that you learned about fish specifically that, like, our listeners might. Might be interested in, like, things. Something you didn't know at all going in or something that. That really surprised you?
- [34:20]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, I. I love when he was telling me about feeling like he had imposter syndrome when he walked on stage in, like, the late 90s. I had never heard him really say that, and I remember seeing the shows a lot, and that never. That never would have occurred to me. No.
- [34:48]
Megan
Yeah. No.
- [34:49]
Mike Ayers
Not only was, is he good at what he does, but, like, he just, you know, it felt confident. Like, it didn't feel. It didn't feel unconfident. But, you know, I guess when the microscope from a community and everything is really starting to, like, ramp up as it was in the late 90s, I guess you could. I guess you could feel that. Like, you know, he. And he kind of talked about it too, in the, like, Jerry dying.
- [35:27]
Brian
Like.
- [35:27]
Mike Ayers
Really changed things, I think, in that. In ways that he seemingly doesn't still understand. Like, you know, just because this, like, for him, like, they were not playing the same type of music. So it doesn't make sense. You know, it doesn't make sense. Like, this is not an apples to apples situation. And so it's just like. It's just like, weird or it's just like, mmw, being like, we don't listen to Grateful Dead. Never have. Why are all these people showing up in Grateful Dead shirts? You know, like. Like, there's these moments that.
- [36:11]
Brian
I just.
- [36:11]
Mike Ayers
Thought were really, like, like, really beautiful. I really wanted to talk to him about Billy Breathes. I just remember that record being a Very seminal record for, like, the fan community. Like. Like, I remember buying it the day it came out, and. Yeah, I just remember everybody well.
- [36:32]
Megan
It's. It's maybe the best Jam Band studio album.
- [36:36]
Mike Ayers
It's. It's fantastic.
- [36:37]
Megan
Got to be up there. Yeah.
- [36:39]
Mike Ayers
Yeah. And it's just so, like. But that stuff is so fascinating to me because that. Released in the fall. 96. Right. Like October 96. And the big story of 96 is Clifford Ball. It has nothing to do with Billy Bree's the studio record, but it's a phenomenal record, and they put a lot.
- [37:03]
Megan
You know, that's what we didn't care about then. You know, like, that we didn't like that. Like, we would secretly listen to it, but, like, we didn't like it. You know, like, Rift is, like, the reason I started listening to Fish. But I wouldn't admit that that's what I liked.
- [37:14]
Mike Ayers
Right.
- [37:16]
Megan
I wasn't cool.
- [37:17]
Mike Ayers
They put so much effort into those things and. And, yeah, so I was excited to really talk to him about that and, like, listen, like. Like, you know, he relayed, which is in the book, about how he essentially wrote the lyrics to Billy Breeze with his daughter in his hands, like, in real time. Like. Like, it's literally a transcription of what he's seeing, like, outside. It's just like, you know, you got a lot of, like. Like jam bands, they got a lot of flack then. They probably still get a lot of flack now, especially around lyrics. But, like, you know, a song like that or Swept Away, like. Like, it's just. There's these very beautiful, gorgeous moments that got buried. It felt like. So it was great to talk about those. About those. About those moments.
- [38:20]
RJ
Nice.
- [38:21]
Mike Ayers
That's awesome. Yeah, you're right. You're right, rj. Like, he has talked a lot more in the last couple years, and.
- [38:29]
Brian
You.
- [38:29]
Mike Ayers
Know, I think there. You know, I don't. I don't know the. I don't know, all the prescriptions around sobriety, but, like, there. There just seems to be, like, a clarity that exudes from. From him on stage and, like.
- [38:48]
Brian
Just.
- [38:48]
Mike Ayers
Like a love of life that probably exists now that maybe too stressful back then. I mean. Yeah.
- [38:57]
Brian
It was, however, one of the cool things about learning about him, you know, mentoring strange folk and the. And the fish community in a lot of ways, or the fish management. Because it did feel like. I remember when he. You could very clearly see him taking Goose under his wing. No. No pun intended, you know, and guiding them along and that tour that his solo band did. With them was. Was clearly like, hey, this is how we operate in an arena. This is. Days are structured like. And those guys have talked about what that experience was like for them and how formative it was. It was cool to see that, like, there was still some of that in him. In the late 90s, even as things were going. Getting so intense in the Fish world, he may not. He wasn't talking to the press as much about that sort of stuff, but, like, him being in a position where he was kind of seen as he had cracked some sort of a code and should provide some advice and insight into the next group coming up was. Was. I don't know, just. Just great to learn about him at that point in time.
- [39:58]
Mike Ayers
Yeah. Yeah, it just. I. I don't know. Like, they. It's just, you know, a very giving. Giving mentality. And, yeah, you fast forward to, like, 30, you know, 25, 30 more years. And he's doing the same for Goose and, you know, doing it for. For Billy. And, you know, with. With decades behind you, you could probably, you know, start to really see, like, how things are progressing and, you know, hindsight being 20 20, like, what would I. What would I want to know? And. But, yeah, that. But not only was he doing it that, you know, not only was he doing it, you know, behind the scenes, but, like, with. With Goose, like, sitting in every night, like, that's just like a. Just a musical world that, you know, he treated people to that. I don't know.
- [41:03]
Brian
Yeah.
- [41:04]
Megan
So generous. I mean, I. I'm similar age to you, and I always was confused why the Grateful Dead would never acknowledge Fish. And I felt like. When. I felt like it was kind of sad that Jerry passed before, like, they ever had an acknowledgement of, like, who Fish was. And maybe that was just, like, a chip on my shoulder about. I grew up kind of the same way you did. Loving the Dead and then getting into Fish, and they kind of felt like you passed the torch in a way. And like we joke about now, there's so many Torch passing things now, but in a way, that is kind of what you should do. And I always was sad that that didn't happen. And I think Trey's done just a beautiful job of ensuring that he's done that for other bands. And I think you're right. I think it speaks to his generosity.
- [41:46]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, I wanted to do another. I wanted to do a chapter. I just didn't have enough material for it, but I wanted to do one on the Phil and Friends shows at the Warfield in 99.
- [41:58]
Megan
Yeah. Yeah, that would have been cool.
- [42:00]
Mike Ayers
That was. I remember being this like crazy moment.
- [42:03]
Megan
Where that was the first time when it felt like that's what it was.
- [42:08]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, it was.
- [42:09]
Megan
I was waiting for that for so long.
- [42:11]
Mike Ayers
It was like this coming together and acknowledgement that from both sides that I just thought was. It was very unique and I just couldn't get it together. But I just thought like that that was just like a really. A really big, big moment. And then of course, Trey did the Dead reunion 10 years ago.
- [42:37]
Megan
Yeah, that was finally the acknowledgment that I felt we all needed. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:43]
Brian
I mean there is something in there of like. Because everything I've ever read about the Dead organization in the late 90s was there was a lot in flux and who was going to carry the torch on for the band. And what happens with, you know, they figured it out from like a merchandising and from a, you know, CD release and box set standpoint and Dead and co continuing to exist, you know, for so long that we almost forget looking back now that there was this period in time of like, well, what is going to happen with the Grateful Dead and has that just gone away and is now, you know, this young generation has to bring things forward. There's almost like a. Like a part two of your book starting with Phil and Friends and going almost to like fairly well. And because that. That, you know, there's another shift around 2015 where these big eventizing the Mexico shows and yeah. The emergence of festivals and these bands playing multi band tours as like even younger jam bands now are rising. I don't know, there's. There's something tied together there with. With that Phil and French show and what would happen over the next 15 years.
- [43:54]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, it was this like, I don't know, meeting of the minds. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to describe it, but it was. Yeah, there's like this, this like when.
- [44:07]
Brian
Choctaws, Torture and Prince Caspian get like the Dead feel to them. There's like a, you know, Wolfman's Brother. There's almost like a sense of like why are we segregating ourselves in a different fan bases? Like all this music carries over in a really fascinating way.
- [44:21]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, that is a great point. And then you know, like a couple years later, you know, the Bonnaroo, you know, really set it off by bringing a lot together and it, you know, there's some ebbs and flows over the. Over the 10 years prior to that. But I feel like the last eight to 10 years has been pretty healthy. And, you know, you start to. And you go to. You go to shows now, and there's people from, you know, it's. It's certainly spanning generations that you used to see at Dead shows, but you wouldn't really see at Fish shows. Definitely wouldn't see him at most shows. But, you know, like, Billy the other night was. It was like, it was. It was all over the map. And I talked to a guy the next day, he was probably 17 years old, and, you know, he was like, deep into Billy, like, Fish who. Like what? Like, like, like, I love that. I love that, like, Gizzard is, like, doing that, like. Like have all these. Now you have these artists that are, like, fueling the obsession that fish and MMW did back, back in the 90s, and they're doing it in new, unique ways. It's. So there's the threads. There's, you know, there's certainly thread then, but it's kind of evolved now. And it's. It's pretty. It's pretty wild to see. And I love the fact that it's. It's bucking so many, like, traditional, like, music industry norms, and they're fine with it. They're fine with it. Like King Gizzard, like, just saying bootleg. Any of my shows, put them on vinyl. Just send them, send us a copy. Like, you know, that's what an evolution of like the. The live tape, you know, but that's.
- [46:24]
Megan
That's also like. It's punk, right? And you talk about this in the book too, that there are elements of this scene that are punk. They're anti establishment in a way that is, you know, it's. It's. That's lasting.
- [46:36]
Mike Ayers
Always is lasting. People and people, especially in this scene, they appreciate it. Like, we appreciate those things. Like, we appreciate, you know, people, you know, standing up for, you know, what's right or their art or whatever, you know, whatever have you. Because. Because they believe in it now. It helps that they're really good.
- [47:04]
Megan
They have to be good. I mean, the fan base won't take it. We're not. We're. We're not. We're very critical. Fan base.
- [47:09]
Brian
Yes. Well, that's one of the interesting things about this is, like, there's no real story in here of someone who got famous overnight and nobody really knew why they got famous. And then, like, they couldn't deliver on the next album. Like, that's not really the challenges or the next, like, tour. That's not really the challenges these bands are because they all talk about it that like the bare minimum requirement for any of these bands to exist was they had to play live really well. And so like you get that as kind of like the entry point. You're gonna suddenly get an amalgamation of all these different sounds and all these different ideas. One thing I kept coming back to, and we've been kind of dancing around this is like, it felt like all these bands in the 90s were bands that would have thrived in the music rules of the 2000s, but they just happened to emerge in the 90s. And maybe culturally things were a little bit different. There was more money that record labels were able to throw out, so certain bands were able to jump to that next level. But it does feel like by the time Fish definitely when they come back in 09, but even in the 2.0 era, when they launched the Live Fish website and this revolutionary thing where the next morning every single one of these concerts is available live. Now they're available within five minutes of a show ending. But by 2010 they're webcasting their shows, which is going to introduce a whole new revenue stream for these bands, plus a whole new way for them to connect with, you know, maybe middle aged people that don't want to go to every concert, but they want to watch them. So now they can stream them in.
- [48:40]
Megan
Their house and everything.
- [48:42]
Brian
Me potentially. But like, it feels in a lot of ways like a lot of these bands, you know, you think about some of them who didn't quite make it past the 90s, if they could have just hung on for like three, four more years. The ipod comes around, Napster comes around, rules around. You know, music changed dramatically. There's a huge cultural outpouring of releasing live release box sets thanks to the Dixby series and Live Fish series. It just seems like so much was about to change for some of them that some just couldn't hang on to.
- [49:15]
Mike Ayers
I completely agree. Like all of those things that you're talking, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. These are the amount that they have done. Just like the notion of the webcast, right? Like, it's just fascinating to me that you know, now Goose and Billy and like a lot of acts do it and certainly pave the way for this. But you know, there's other fan bases that are just as obsessive. And it's crazy to me that like Taylor Swift is not monetizing her shows through webcasting because they, like globally fans would watch every single and they would.
- [50:07]
Brian
Still go to the shows?
- [50:08]
Megan
Like, yeah, I have a friend who's like, a massive Radiohead fan and they're doing their first tour in seven years. And why wouldn't they stream these shows? These tickets are impossible to get. She was explaining to me how hard it was to get the tickets and how it was to line up. She wants to go to more than one. And, like, they're not live streaming. That's crazy. They could make so much money. It's weird.
- [50:29]
Mike Ayers
It's wild.
- [50:30]
Megan
Learn stuff from jam bands, though. They don't want it. They don't want our. Don't want our information. They think we're like, you know, I don't know. It's very devalued. That's one reason why I really appreciated you writing the book, because I really believe in the archive. And we have to have, you know, we have to have this somewhere. You know, this. It is a legitimate scene and I think it's important to have that down. But, yeah, why aren't these bands doing it? It's very weird.
- [50:53]
Mike Ayers
It's crazy to me. It's. It's really leaving money on the table and.
- [51:03]
Megan
Which Taylor Swift doesn't do. So that's weird.
- [51:05]
Mike Ayers
You know, it is weird. Like, I don't fully. I don't understand it at all, but I'm glad our bands do it.
- [51:14]
Brian
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Megan
Yeah, me too.
- [51:16]
Brian
Because then it's just an everyday conversation. Whatever appears on Nuggs, whatever new shows you disc. I've got two questions here for you because I have to speak in middle age. Not going to concert. I have to go pick up my kids here in a minute. One question. Probably my favorite sections of the whole book were the Modeski, Martin and Wood stuff. That was a huge band for me at that point in time. And one of the best concerts I've ever seen was their Bonnaroo 2003 all night, like midnight to 5am show. Just blew my mind. What was it like for you talking with those guys? Like, where. Where do you see? Like, what kind of like, fascinated you about them during that period and within that scene? Because they are just like, slightly removed, but still a part of it, but slightly removed. There's such an interesting case within there.
- [52:09]
Mike Ayers
Do you think they're slightly removed?
- [52:11]
Brian
I mean, I think just the. The focus on jazz. There's. There's less of, like the whimsy you get.
- [52:20]
Megan
They're cooler than us.
- [52:21]
Brian
Yeah, there's. There's like a New York cool, more like indie, bookish type aside to them that I would not compare with other. I would not say that for a lot of other bands.
- [52:32]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, I love them. And I remember in, you know, it was, it was, you know, they opened for fish in 95, like three gigs.
- [52:48]
Brian
Yeah.
- [52:49]
Mike Ayers
And that show that mmw played at emos on 1014, 95 that trey set in on like rec music fish was like ablaze the next morning. About everybody had the tapes within like two weeks, like soundboards. And it was like your duty as a card carrying jam band fan to tell everybody you could and dub them that tape. And so by spring 96, like they were doing another tour and I was all about it and I. And it became really hard, like, like immediately, like pretty hard to get into, into the gigs. Like they were like Catching Catching Fire. I just thought they were so, like, so creative. Like they were just doing things that were like I'd never heard before. I'd never seen three people do what they did on stage and then they just flipped it on ahead and you know, take it for granted these days. But like throwing a DJ into the mix as well was like really unheard of back then.
- [54:04]
Megan
Yeah.
- [54:05]
Mike Ayers
And so they like, they were blending elements that you just really couldn't. I don't know, I just didn't hear anywhere. And so I thought like, and, and I wasn't like. I just didn't feel like I was abnormal, you know, in terms of my, my fandom. So I, I really remembered them being like a very poignant part of the story. Like you would go to a Fish parking lot, super common to hear Modeski bootlegs playing. And, and so I love them. And I remember Shackman being like this, this record that the CD that everybody had and. And then when they jumped to Blue Note, like that was like a really big, I think moment because Blue note in the 90s was like this. It was kind of goofy. Like it wasn't doing cool avant garde New York stuff. And so they were just constantly pushing the envelope forward. So whereas they may have been confused about the fandom and they may have never listened to the Grateful Dead, they were still doing things that the fandom really appreciated. And that was just a massive appreciation for improv and for pushing the ball forward in the studio on stage. You know, I think they, they're, they're kind of a case of like going pretty hard, pretty fast. Like, like they had to create an infrastructure pretty quickly because of they're. They have pretty fast rise. I mean, they certainly told me by the end of the decade, like, even though they kept playing on, they're Pretty burnt.
- [56:09]
Brian
Yeah. You get that from a lot of these bands. That's. That's definitely a crossover. One. One last question for you. From my end, one band that has always stuck with me from this era, from the later part of this era is the Slip, which I think got, like, one or two quotes in there. But I'm curious, were there any other bands from that period in time that you were like, man, I would have killed to have space for X band that I didn't necessarily get to tell their whole story. Was there anyone that came up like that?
- [56:43]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, there was some bands that were from the Northeast that seemed to play this corridor of the Mid Atlantic and the Northeast, and. And they were getting popular, like Ominous seapods and Deep Banana, Blackout and the Slip. I remember this band. Jacob Fred, Jazz Odyssey, Joe Russo's early band, I think, Fat Mama. There were some bands. I kind of had a criteria. Where the criteria was you had to have a. You had to be playing nationally. You had, like, a national footprint, and you had to have a major label. Because I wanted to tell that story and that those juxtapositions. There was only one band that was the exception, and that was String Cheese Incident. But they were offered a bunch of major labels.
- [57:44]
Brian
Yeah.
- [57:45]
Mike Ayers
And it turned them down, which I.
- [57:47]
Brian
Thought had the national following. Yeah.
- [57:49]
Mike Ayers
And I thought that was cool. Like, they learned.
- [57:52]
Brian
Yeah.
- [57:53]
Mike Ayers
Like, they learned, like, that might not be the best. Like. Yeah.
- [57:57]
Brian
They saw, like, the mo path, and they were like, that's not for us. Like, we're. We're gonna stay weird.
- [58:01]
Megan
That's hard to do, too. I mean, people offer you money to make music. Like, that's hard to do.
- [58:06]
Mike Ayers
It's hard to do. But, you know, they, I guess, had the realization, like, they could just look inward and be like, we're not gonna deliver what they want. Yeah. So what we're doing is resonating. Why don't we just try to take that to a different level? Like a bigger level? And they did. So I thought that was. But that was, like, the one exception.
- [58:34]
Brian
Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think you can tell the story without them, and so that makes a lot of sense.
- [58:39]
Mike Ayers
Yeah.
- [58:40]
Brian
Nice. Well, I'm going to jump. I know you guys got a couple more things to chat through, but thank you so much for the book, man, and I really appreciate your time. And anyone out there who hasn't read Sharon in the Groove by Mike Ayers, please, please go get a copy. There's a ton of great information. And I told you guys on the show, I'll tell you, Mike, I was spinning old panic tapes. I was spinning mo shows. I was going down in deep end for like a two week period in time. It was a ton of fun. So thank you.
- [59:08]
Mike Ayers
Amazing. Yeah. It does not get old.
- [59:13]
Brian
No, it does not.
- [59:15]
Megan
Well, it's kind of perfect with the new Fish release. I don't know if you've listened to it, but they just released 122890 from the marquee. And I listened to it this weekend. It was just so fun hearing that after reading your book and just thinking about where the band was then in 1990 and realizing how much was going on that we didn't know about behind the scenes. It was awesome.
- [59:34]
Mike Ayers
I know. I'm pretty sure that that is the show that they're. The woman that signed them to Elektra, Sue Drew, that's the show that she saw them at and was like, really? I'm pretty. Like, I would bet a lot of money that it was. And she was like, what is this? What is happening here? This is like the Devotion. Even back then in 1990 that I'm seeing. I don't see this. And I need to get a meeting with them. And like, three some odd weeks later, she went up to Burlington and like, went and took him out to dinner and was, you know, in the Saving grace. I think not saving grace. Well, for her. But the reason why chose them is because she had signed they Might Be Giants and they thought they Might be Giants were weird. And they were like, oh, okay, well, they have the Pixies. They have they Might Be Giants. And she brought them. They Might Be Giants. Okay, that's it. Like, okay, we're listening. Like. Like that sort of thing. Like if they were just. If the person was just some run of the mill, like, suit that didn't have that pedigree, could have been totally different.
- [60:52]
Megan
Yeah, that's amazing, too. And listening to that show, it's. It's like pure fish in a way. You know, it's that. That fish that is so tight, but still really weird and loose in so many ways, and it's so authentic. And that's great. I didn't know that that's that show. And that's awesome. It's fun to listen to. After reading your book and thinking so much about all the stuff that was going on behind the scenes, I loved hearing about New York. I live in New York now, and I just loved getting this inside view into like nightingales and the wetlands and the marquee and all these old venues and thinking about when Fish is playing there. It's so fun to imagine that because first time I ever saw Fish play in New York City, it was at MSG and it was in, you know, 97, but still, it was. It was big time.
- [61:42]
Mike Ayers
Oh, yeah, it was. It was. It was big time. And yeah, there. There's just like. It's interesting, like, the city, New York, all, like, all these cities here, Athens, New York, Burlington, Boulder, like, they just. They all have these places that pretty much no longer exist anymore. But they were so integral to these young acts and just giving them a home and just letting them play and develop a. Develop a craft, right? Like, these weren't studios where they're like twisting knobs and like, figuring out, like, overdubs. Like, this was just like, they just had, like these home bases that just let them play so, so much. And then they just got. They got good at it.
- [62:42]
Megan
Well, I love that too. So much of it is in selfish interest of these clubs, right? They just wanted somebody to play on Monday night, you know, and so they're like, yeah, you can come and play every Monday night, you know, And I think it's just so great when those two things align when they're, you know, and there's just someone hungry enough to do it and a bar that's like, whatever. We don't care what you do if you bring people in. It was cool to see how that happened in so many different cities and how that aligned for so many of these bands. And I hope that that still exists for young bands now and that they get to play in these bars that just want people to play on Monday nights. And I hope that leads to them having a 30 year career in music. It's awesome to think about.
- [63:19]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, I hope so. You know, the Stone Pony and Asbury still feels like it's. It's doing that. There's. There's still like some. There will be places for sure. They just might have a different name. And a lot of the, like, indie, like, local festivals, like, give. You know, they're very good about giving local acts like, you know, spots on the bill. And, you know, one of the ways that I discover music now is I look at like, the festival posters and at the bottom, there's acts that I don't know, and I just go and listen to them on bandcamp and check them out. And, you know, usually if you're, you know, on the bill with Goose and J Rad, I might like you. It's probably a good chance.
- [64:10]
Megan
Yeah, it's interesting. I've always wondered about that, about the indie scene and why some of these indie labels haven't been interested in jam bands. I don't know if. If it's, you know, dilutes their brand or they don't want something that's, you know, off label the way that jam bands tend to be. But. But I do think it's interesting that they've never jumped on like, you know, we talk now about how we were talking about how the bigger labels don't want jam bands, but I've always been interested in why indie labels don't either.
- [64:36]
Mike Ayers
I don't. Yeah, that's a good question. And it was very, very interesting to me that Kill Rock Stars sign Michaela Davis. And it was just like. It felt like so out of the blue. And I was like, huh, that is really. That's really interesting. And it's a great record. But you don't. Yeah, you don't. You don't see it. And maybe it's like an aesthetic thing that, you know, they're really careful about. I'm not. I'm not quite sure. I do know that Goose does distribution through Secretly Canadian for all their vinyl. So they at least are using them to like, to, you know, like, at least get their stuff out there from a company that knows how to do that.
- [65:31]
Megan
I mean, if anybody's going to make the indie crossover, it's Goose. So we'll hold our breath for that for sure.
- [65:37]
Mike Ayers
I know, I know. They might have like a kid A in them.
- [65:46]
Megan
Yeah. I just got to talk to Kadur this weekend for an interview I'll put out. And we were talking about their use of the studio and how much they like the studio and Rick loves the studio. So it's interesting to see what they might be able to do. But I've been surprised that indie labels aren't interested in them. And maybe they are and we just don't know. And they haven't signed with them, but they might.
- [66:05]
Mike Ayers
They might be, and they just want to retain themselves. I don't know. It is, it's. It is very fascinating to see how. How it's going to play out.
- [66:17]
Megan
Well, when you write the next oral history, I'm sure Goose will be a part of that. So it was great. Thanks so much for sending us the book and for coming on the show. It was really enlightening. I learned a lot. I didn't know I was pretty myopic in the 90s. And it was really fun to kind of open up my world and see what the other bands were up to. So thank you so much for.
- [66:36]
Mike Ayers
Yeah, thanks, Megan. This was awesome.
- [66:38]
Megan
Yeah, great. Okay, well come back anytime and write another book for us so we can find out what happened from, you know, 99 to 25. Brinkman's really good about giving people things to do, so he just gave you that assignment and we'll be waiting for you.
- [66:52]
Mike Ayers
I believe he just said like, you know, you have four books left. After I was like, okay, slow down here. Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate it. This was super fun.
- [67:05]
Megan
Awesome. Well, thanks so much. And if you have not read Sharon in the Groove, everybody out there, you got to read it. Mike Ayers, like person from our scene and got to support him. And the book is awesome. It's a great holiday gift. So everybody should check that out. And we'll see you next week. We'll be back. I think we're doing a possum. My dog's having things to say, but we're going to do our possum Mount Rushmore next week. So we'll be back picking our top four versions of Possum. I still have about 20 to listen to, so it's, it's a lot of hours of possum to listen to, but sacrificing for the podcast and I'm excited to see that. So we'll see everybody next week for that and thanks again, Mike.
- [67:44]
Mike Ayers
Thank you.
- [67:45]
Megan
Thanks everyone.
- [67:45]
Brian
See you soon. Sam. Osiris.
- [68:38]
Mike Ayers
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day.
- [68:58]
Brian
Yeah.
- [68:58]
Mike Ayers
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [69:02]
Megan
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow 135 gigabytes of networks fizzy taxes and fees extra c mintmobile.com this.
- [69:09]
Narrator/Advertiser
Is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music too. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@rerangedpodcast.com.
- [70:15]
Mike Ayers
Osiris.