Episode Overview

Podcast: Helping Friendly Podcast (HFPod)
Episode: Mike Ayers — Sharing in the Groove
Date: November 18, 2025
Guests: Mike Ayers (author of Sharing in the Groove), hosted by RJ, Brian, and Megan

This episode features a wide-ranging, conversational interview with journalist and author Mike Ayers about his oral history book Sharing in the Groove, a comprehensive look at the 1990s jam band scene, focusing primarily on Phish and their contemporaries. The hosts and Mike discuss the evolution of the scene, mentorship, industry challenges, the uniqueness of Phish, and the contemporary state of jam bands, with personal stories and reflections woven throughout.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Getting into the Jam Band Scene & Phish’s Rise

• Mike’s Introduction to Jam Bands
  • Mike’s gateway was the Grateful Dead in high school, via classic rock and relics like American Beauty and tape trading.
    • “I was really cool to like three people because I wrote to some random person in the back of Relics… and they did.” – Mike Ayers (04:32)
  • Saw his first Dead show in ’93, found Phish in college (’94), and was quickly swept up by their energy and community.
  • Anecdote: Mike and a friend scored backstage work at Phish shows in exchange for washing dishes/cooking, a “communal” ethos emblematic of the scene.
    • [06:16] — “We did that...for like the back half of the ‘90s...running around a lot, washing and a lot of dishes and scrubbing a lot of potatoes.” – Mike Ayers

Why Write This Book & The Oral History Format

• Purpose Behind the Book
  • Mike wanted to capture the unique rise of the 90s jam scene, a “DIY culture” that exploded to tens of thousands of fans with little mainstream support.
  • He was inspired by oral histories like Meet Me in the Bathroom, wanting to preserve authentic voices and dialects.
    • “People would like to hear it from the horse’s mouth rather than me riding through it...Billy Martin speaks very differently than Derek Trucks.” – Mike Ayers (13:07)
  • Cites mentorship dynamics and band interconnections as one of his favorite discoveries: Phish mentoring Medeski, Martin & Wood (MMW) and Strangefolk, passing on lessons they didn’t always receive from the Dead.

Mentorship, DIY Culture, & Scene Evolution

• Mentorship Dynamics

  • Mike was surprised by the depth of mentorship networks within the ‘90s jam scene, particularly Phish supporting MMW and Strangefolk behind-the-scenes (see also, MOE).
  • Trey’s role as an “elder statesman” and his generosity toward younger acts stands out.
  • The lack of Grateful Dead mentorship for Phish highlighted, with Fish instead becoming the guides.

• DIY Culture & Authenticity

  • The scene built itself from the ground up, often shunned by the industry, but thrived on word-of-mouth, tape trading, and relentless touring.
    • “No other bands or scenes were doing that…so many stories with record labels, clubs, and drugs…” – Mike Ayers (10:45)
  • Record labels often misunderstood jam bands, signing them with little regard for their divergent business model, leading to moments of both growth and cautionary tales (Mo, God Street Wine, Strangefolk).

Record Labels, Management, and Industry Lessons

• The Major Label Struggle

  • Mo’s experience: initial elation at signing with Sony, but realization that creative freedom was illusory when the head of the label disliked them.
    • “Three months later, I was telling the story to somebody. And she was like, you don’t think it’s a massive problem that the head of the label hates your band?” – Via Al from Mo, as told by Mike Ayers (20:44)
  • 1990s bands often felt pressured to pursue mainstream success/status, which sometimes ran counter to their strengths as live acts.
  • Modern jam bands like Goose and Dogs are largely independent, having learned from the ‘90s not to depend on major labels.
  • Fans and “the jam band Illuminati” value authenticity and are skeptical of perceived “over-management.” [26:35]

• Changing Media & Monetization

  • The jam scene’s technology embrace (LivePhish webcasts, fast show uploads, bootlegging, etc.) has now become industry standard for audience engagement and revenue—though mainstream acts still lag behind.
    • “It’s crazy to me that Taylor Swift is not monetizing her shows through webcasting…” – Mike Ayers (49:15)

The Uniqueness and Longevity of Phish

• What Set Phish Apart?

  • Phish combined outsider nerd-dom, intelligence, surrealism, lore, and deep community—a “healthy obsession.”
    • “They created lore, they created desire, they created community…” – Mike Ayers (32:32)
  • Their resistance to mainstream promotion, willingness to “sabotage” publicity, and community building insulated them from the “curse” of one-hit-wonderdom.
    • “If they did [promo], they’d sabotage it, wear like tutus and be in like a swimming pool, looking ridiculous.” – Megan (31:47)

• Trey’s Openness and Impostor Syndrome

  • Recent years have brought greater transparency from Trey; Mike recounts Trey’s surprising admission of late ‘90s impostor syndrome.
    • “I love when he was telling me…he had impostor syndrome when he walked on stage in the late ‘90s. I had never heard him really say that…” – Mike Ayers (34:20)
  • The impact of Jerry Garcia’s passing on Phish’s psyche and audience expectations was profound and not always understood by the band itself.
    • The scene was a crucible after Jerry died, with fans searching for a new focal point, sometimes projecting that onto Phish.

• Phish Mentoring the Next Generation

  • Trey’s ongoing mentorship of Goose credited as an extension of ‘90s-era Phish values.
    • “It was cool to see...there was still some of that in him in the late ‘90s, even as things were getting so intense in the Fish world.” – Brian (38:57)

The Broader Scene: Bands, Festivals, and Scenes

• Festivalization & Scene Shifts

  • The narrative arc of the ‘90s oral history ends at Big Cypress, with subsequent decades seeing the emergence of festival culture (Bonnaroo), the rise of new acts (Umphrey’s McGee, Disco Biscuits), and greater comfort with niche audiences.
    • “There’s almost like a part two of your book starting with Phil and Friends and going almost to like Fare Thee Well…” – Brian (43:53)
  • Cities like New York, Athens, Burlington, and Boulder were crucibles thanks to now-vanished regionally supportive clubs.

• Medeski, Martin & Wood’s Unique Angle

  • MMW’s jazz influence and New York "cool" set them apart, while their improvisational inventiveness and audience cross-pollination embedded them in the jam DNA.
    • “You’d go to a Fish parking lot, super common to hear Modeski bootlegs playing.” – Mike Ayers (54:03)

• String Cheese Incident and Label Choices

  • String Cheese Incident discussed as the notable exception: achieved national presence while consciously rejecting major label deals.

• Forgotten Bands & Criteria

  • Some bands couldn't make the cut (Ominous Seapods, Deep Banana Blackout, Slip, etc.) due to national footprint or label experience criteria, with String Cheese being the one notable exception. [56:42-58:33]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On entering the scene:
  “The Grateful Dead were my gateway.” – Mike Ayers (03:01)

• On the oral history format:
  “I had a theory that people would like to hear it from the horse’s mouth...I was very particular about leaving everybody’s dialect in.” – Mike Ayers (13:05)

• On indie cred and fan values:
  “I think the fans really want to see that DIY approach…if they feel like [authenticity] is at all compromised, it bothers them.” – Megan (26:46)

• On Phish’s secret sauce:
  “If you were a Fish obsessive… it's just like, you know, it's like D&D, you know, it's just like the ultimate if you know, you know, mentality.” – Mike Ayers (33:20)

• On Trey’s impostor syndrome:
  “I love when he was telling me about feeling like he had imposter syndrome when he walked on stage in the late 90s…that never would have occurred to me.” – Mike Ayers (34:20)

• On communal values:
  “There’s no real story in here of someone who got famous overnight … the bare minimum requirement for any of these bands to exist was they had to play live really well.” – Brian (47:09)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Mike's Early Years: [01:13–07:41]
• Motivation and Making the Book an Oral History: [09:41–14:42]
• Mentorship & Band-to-Band Support in the ‘90s: [14:42–17:55]
• Record Industry Realities: Mo, God Street Wine, Strangefolk: [19:13–24:41]
• Contrast with Modern Bands & Management Evolution: [24:41–29:09]
• Phish’s Distinctiveness & Longevity: [32:13–33:39]
• Trey’s Personal Growth, Openness, and Billy Breathes: [34:20–38:20]
• Scene Shifts, Festivals, and Changing Audience: [41:03–44:21]
• Medeski, Martin & Wood and Fandom: [52:08–54:03]
• String Cheese & Label Choices: [57:44–58:33]
• The New York Club Scene & Evolution of Local Scenes: [61:41–63:18]
• Current Roads Not Taken (Indie Labels & New Bands): [64:10–66:17]

Closing Thoughts

Summary Statement:
Sharing in the Groove provides a rich, multi-perspective tapestry of the 1990s jam band movement, preserving the voices and dialects of the era. This episode highlights the importance of community, authenticity, and lessons learned—how a tight-knit, misunderstood scene not only survived but thrived through the independent ethos, and how its values continue to shape the modern jam world.

Recommended Action:
If you are a Phish fan, a lover of jam bands, or interested in music history, check out Mike Ayers’ Sharing in the Groove. As the hosts and Mike agree, it’s essential reading for understanding the unique DNA of the jam band phenomenon.

“It's amazing to think about these bands that learned to build a career on their own terms, and how those lessons are echoing forward even now. It's still happening. That's what keeps this scene alive.”