MSG 2025 Recap

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast – MSG 2025 Recap (Jan 2, 2026)

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Episode Overview

The Helping Friendly Podcast team—RJ, Brian, and Megan—delivers their comprehensive and characteristically thoughtful recap of Phish’s 2025 New Year's Run at Madison Square Garden. This episode is notable not only for the in-depth musical and fan analysis of all four MSG shows, but also for its announcement: the hosts are taking a hiatus from the show after more than a decade of documenting the Phish experience. They reflect on the state of the band, the highlights and weaknesses of the run, and look towards the future—both for Phish and the podcast.

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Host Reflections & Show News

Taking a Pause: Explaining the Decision (05:03–09:45)

• All three co-hosts share major life changes and increased commitments (graduate school, jobs, family) as reasons for pausing the podcast.
• Brian: “I think we've all realized that the time that we put into this show is something we really cherish, but also something that requires a lot of our time taken away from families, taken away from professional responsibilities…” (05:03)
• Megan: “These four years have really been just an unbelievably creative time for me and really inspiring and working with Brian and RJ has really just been an absolute dream and the creative apex of my life for sure.” (07:41)
• The archive of content (top 25 tours, series like Rushmore and 40 for 40) is highlighted for listeners while the show is on hiatus.
• Shoutouts given to other Phish podcasts for continued community and coverage.

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MSG 2025 Recap

Headlines for the Run (11:12–17:44)

Brian's Take: Creative Crossroads

• Brian: “Fish at a Creative Crossroads. What's next?” He observes the run largely lacked new material or “new jamming direction”, felt somewhat uninspired up until the monumental third set on New Year’s Eve—but sees this as a typical inflection point for Phish.
• Draws sports comparisons: a team struggling until a big late-game comeback.
• Suggests a new batch of songs is likely in 2026.

Megan's Take: All-In on the Gag

• Megan: “Fish saved it all for the Gag and delivers one of their strongest third sets of all time.” (13:46)
• Noted how the highlight came late, especially with classic songs (“Hood” and “Tweezer”) anchoring an epic third set after a run of shorter, less exploratory jams.
• Finds an interesting thread between SPAC and New Year’s “Tweezer” themes.

RJ: Jamming from the Unexpected

• RJ notes that, until the final night, the “most notable jams came from non jam vehicles,” highlighting how “Theme From the Bottom” and “My Friend, My Friend” yielded the deepest explorations.

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Night-by-Night Highlights & Analysis

Night 1: December 28, 2025 (18:23–24:26)

Key Points

• Band readjusting after a few months off; expectations low, but show exceeded them.
• Wolfman’s Brother and especially the Theme From the Bottom jam praised for adventurous, groove-based jamming and subtle effects.
  • Megan: “It's so dark and sultry, edgy and it just really, really hypnotic. And I love how they're layering underneath it...” (20:20)
• Brian: Discusses evolving use of effects, comparing the more judicious 2025 approach to earlier eras.

Memorable Quotes

• Brian: “It sounded a lot like Natural Information Society to me.” (18:23)

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Night 2: December 29, 2025 (24:29–33:42)

First Set Fire, Then Falters

• Megan: “I walked in and this first set...they came out absolutely swinging with this Carini Plasma Carini…The peak in Carini when they brought it back was super triumphant.” (24:39)
• Quadraphonic Toppling bustout especially thrilling for attendees.
• Curtain With > Bathtub Gin > Fluffhead described as “killer first quarter setlisting.” (25:28)

Second Set & Mixed Reception

• Brian: Notes several promising jams (Mikes, Wave of Hope, Golden Age), but feels jams are cut short before reaching “around one further corner.”
• Megan disagrees, calling the “Wave of Hope” jam “great” and its crescendo “unbelievable.” (29:53)

Discussion of Jamming Impatience

• RJ: Suggests Trey may be looking ahead to the Sphere residency, affecting focus and setlist risk-taking. (31:30)

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Night 3: December 30, 2025 (35:44–47:42)

Set 2: Missed Opportunities and the 'Jam Problem'

• Brian & Megan dissect whether Phish needs a long, standout jam to make a big show feel special.
• Second set (Ghost > Ruby Waves > Light > Cross Eyed) has “perfect setlist” potential, but each jam is truncated.
  • Megan: “The story of, like, the band pushing the jam forward and Trey trying to pull it back.” (39:30)
• Brian: “In recent years, one of the things these long jams do is that they kind of remove you from the reality of ‘I’m at a rock concert on a Tuesday night…’” (39:30)
• Lack of new songs and low show gap discussed as a factor in repetition.

End of Set Criticisms

• Drift While You’re Sleeping as encore (44:41) gets universal critique:
  • Megan: “I'm sorry, but do not encore with drift while you're sleeping on 12:30.” (44:41)

Broader Reflections

• The challenge of keeping the “setlisting magic” and momentum of historical 12/30 shows is evident.
• Both hosts reminisce about how the lack of a Fall tour can leave year-end runs sluggish to start.

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Night 4: December 31, 2025 — New Year’s Eve (47:42–66:18)

First Two Sets: Slog or Structure?

• RJ: “To me felt a Little bit like the Ohio State game I was watching, like long and frustrating...” (51:13)
• Hosts wish Phish would write more intentional first sets for nights like this; note first sets at classic ’90s shows were masterpieces in themselves.

Was the “Troll” Intentional?

• Team debates whether the lack of jams in sets one and two was a deliberate setup for the all-time third set.
  • Brian: “Was part of this gag holding off jams and deliberately playing weird, non relistenable set list so that the final set was this absolute masterpiece?” (55:42)
• Consensus: Probably not, but the effect is felt.

Set Three: A Rare, All-Time Jam Segment

• Brian: “It was the third set of People's Dreams... the band was just having a conversation, just flowing and building...” (58:46)
• Megan: Details the sublime jamming in Tweezer > Piper:
  • “The jam kicks off with these really juicy synths and deep bass from Mike... the solo that Trey takes like 16 minutes into this tweezer...his tone and phrasing was...so unbelievable.” (61:36)
  • Reiterates the rarity: “That sort of sense of freedom we did not hear really throughout the entire run until the final set. That's a very rare thing.” (61:36)
• Encore: Spock’s Brain and barbershop numbers, “perfect capstone to the year.” (63:56)

The New Year's Gag

• Hosts discuss the “callback” nature—Gamehendge costumes, nods to previous gags, with “Tweezer” at the center.
• Brian reads a listener comment: “I think the production company spent so much money on the Gamehenge costumes and props that they told the band we have to use them more than once before we buy new New Year’s Eve gags.” (65:44)

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Broader Questions: Phish’s Longevity and 2025 Summary

How Many Years Left? (67:22–71:52)

• Host consensus: Phish still has creative drive, health, and inspiration—can likely tour for up to a decade or more if they wish.
• Possible future: more residencies (MSG, Sphere), fewer one-off large tours.

Summing Up 2025 (72:15–78:51)

• Brian: “I think something shifted in early 2023...we’re maybe the later stages of that.” (72:15)
• Megan: “Fish is still at a really, really good place creatively, but they deliver their strongest material and shows when they're pushing their patience and delivering really long jams.” (73:35)
• The year is seen as slightly odd: no Halloween, fall, or festival shows, but high points remain stellar (e.g. SPAC, NYE 3rd set).
• All three agree: Phish continues to avoid nostalgia traps and remain artistically restless and evolving.

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Reflections & Sign-Off (79:01–82:39)

• Deep gratitude from the team for each other, Osiris, and the audience.
  • Brian: “I want to get into the weeds. I want to talk about why this band blows my mind. Why this band sometimes pisses me off like a child. Like, you know, a good friend. Why this band confounds me...” (79:32)
  • Megan: “These four years have been just absolutely incredibly inspiring to me...and I know a lot of women are too. So thanks, everybody.” (81:43)
• Commitment to possibly revisiting the pod in the future: “You never know. We've, you know, HFPod tried to take a break before and it came back…” (81:43)
• Final message to the fans: “See you soon.” (82:36)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• 05:03: Hosts announce and explain podcast pause
• 11:12: Host “headlines” for MSG 2025
• 18:23: 12/28 show analysis—Wolfman's Brother, Theme From the Bottom
• 24:29: 12/29 show highlights—Carini opener, Quadraphonic Toppling, “jam impatience”
• 35:44: 12/30 show debate—need for “big jams,” critique of second set
• 47:42: 12/31 first set structure and debate about New Year’s Eve show flow
• 58:46: Full breakdown of the renowned NYE third set jam
• 65:44: Listener comments and NYE gag discussion
• 72:15: Where is Phish in 2025? Hosts' reflections and summary
• 79:01: Final reflections, gratitude, goodbye

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Selected Quotes

• Brian (On show expectations): “You got to do it. When your kids are young. You got to do it.” (03:55)
• Megan (On NYE set three): “They kept us guessing until the end. You know, this New Year's Eve run was such a slow burn...” (13:46)
• RJ (On Phish’s perseverance): “They're still doing new and interesting [things] and that's just like—it's really inspiring and mind blowing, you know, that they're like, they could have mailed it in so long ago, you know, and still made as much money, if not more, you know, and they're just like, it's just not who they are.” (76:25)

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Tone & Podcast Language

The episode captures the warmth, analytical depth, candor, and humor characteristic of HFPod. The hosts are both critical and celebratory, reflecting genuine fan passion and community engagement. Their parting words balance nostalgia, pride, and hope for both the music and the ongoing story of the podcast itself.

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Conclusion

This episode of HFPod is a heartfelt sendoff—at least for now—melding astute musical analysis with community spirit, and ending with gratitude and openness to the future. For fans and newcomers alike, it serves as both a deep dive into one of Phish’s most storied annual runs and a reflective marker of how much the band and its fan culture continue to evolve.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Osiris.

[C]

What's up, everybody? Happy New Year. This is the Helping friendly podcast. We are back with an MSG recap. I'm rj. You guys might remember me from previous episodes, but I'm with Brian and Megan, who you definitely remember from recent episodes. What's up, guys?

[B]

How's it going? Happy New Year.

[D]

Happy New Year. Good to see everybody. The gang's all here.

[C]

Gang's all here. So, Megan, you went to a couple of the shows, right?

[D]

Yeah, I went to the 29th and the 30th.

[C]

29Th and 30th. Brian was devotedly streaming as always. Right.

[B]

Cast everything, man, every note. You know, I'm not going to the bathroom during the sets. I treat it as though I'm there.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I'm glad. I mean, how you do that is. Is, you know, a mystery, but mystery. So. All right, we're gonna. We are gonna. We are gonna talk about all four shows, obviously. We'll talk a little bit about 2025, I think, in general. Right? Yeah, we have Forbin 777 here in the chat. Everyone else who's in the chat, what's up? Happy New Year. Um, how's you guys holiday going?

[A]

Pretty good.

[D]

It's been really busy. I've been like hosting my family in the mountains, back to the city to see some shows, hosting a bunch of stuff there, friends there. I'm back in the mountains now. I'm pretty tired, but it's been really fun and I'm glad I got to see some shows and catch up with a lot of people and I'm ready to slow down, I gotta tell you. Ready to slow down.

[B]

Slowing down is a good thing, isn't it? I feel like I've been pretty slowed down this holiday. We haven't traveled at all yet, although we are traveling tomorrow. Uh, I've watched a lot of movies, I've read a couple books. Um, it's been 75 degrees here in Denver. So we've been outside. It's kind of. It's. We've. We've had one snow this winter here in, in the city. Uh, we've spent a lot of our holiday going to kind of little neighborhoods here in Denver and just doing some window shopping, doing some stuff with kids, taking them to a lot of movies, a lot of trampoline parks, a lot of just like, how do we kill four hours plus, you know, get you guys fed and get your energy out. It's been, it's been a good juggling act.

[C]

Trampoline parks. Sometimes that is. Sometimes that is the answer, you know?

[D]

My God. So the level of like Dante's Inferno, those places. My God. So loud and like, it's every teacher's nightmare. Like, every time I have to like, go near one of those, I'm like, oh my God, why so bad?

[B]

And you just look around and are like, someone is going to get seriously injured here.

[D]

Yeah. And there's like foot fungus. I don't know. I just. It's not for me. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not really my thing. But, you know, I just. I go, you got to do it.

[D]

You know, you got to do it. When your kids are young. You got to do it.

[C]

You got to do it. We just. Two of my friends went to the show last night and we had their kids here. We are, we were on. I think it might be. It's quiet now, but we were on a 24 hour sleepover with 6 kids. Total sleepover ever. So, you know, we're all. I think it sounds like we're all tired. Um, but speaking of slowing down.

[B]

So.

[C]

Okay, so you guys know Brian and Megan. Obviously, you know, but everyone else knows, like, I haven't been here for a few weeks. I have in kind of like classic fashion in my. With my new job. I've also committed to helping coach the girls varsity basketball team. And I'm coaching three of my other kids, I mean, my actual kids, sports this winter. And everything's in the afternoon and evening and the weekends are crazy. And that's kind of part of why I kind of dropped off just over commitment. But that's like, led to more conversations, right. About what we're going to do here and what we do. And you guys have been here holding down the fort, which I appreciate it. But I don't know. Brian Or, Megan, do you want to kind of weigh in about what you guys have been chatting about?

[B]

Yeah, I think that the last, I would say, like, three, four months for all of us, we felt ourselves being pulled in a variety of directions. I've gotten pretty involved in my community here. I'm applying to go back. Back to graduate school, and my own job is getting a little bit more intense just as the program I work on grows. And I think we've all realized that the time that we put into this show is something we really cherish, but also something that requires a lot of our time taken away from families, taken away from professional responsibilities, and has kind of put us in almost like a crossroads right now where we kind of figure. If we continue this, it's done in such a highly dedicated fashion that it forces us to sacrifice other things that are really important to us, really important to our families, really important to our professional lives. And if we focus on those things but continue to do the show, the show suffers. And so I think we have come to a spot here where we feel like our best move right now is to take a pause from the show rather than let anything drag out and not be as strong in quality as we. As we expect and like. And as you guys expect and like. And we're finding ourselves at the start of a year, needing to kind of go in our own individual directions. Meg, I'll let you speak as well, because I know you've got some stuff that you're working on, but I think where we're at right now, based on how RJ's schedule has changed over the last couple of weeks, what's all kind of brewing in our own individual lives is this kind of desire right now to take a step back from the show, let it speak as it has for the last couple of years, obviously for the last 12 years since RJ created it, and then the work that we've done since late 2021, and, you know, kind of take a little bit of a break from what we've been doing here. And in the future, if we feel the desire to come back, talk about new shows, restart Rushmore, do another series, you know, we still have the ability to do that, but for now, kind of taking a pause. Meg, I'll let you jump in because I know you have thoughts as well.

[D]

I think everyone that listens to this podcast regularly knows the amount of time and effort that the three of us put into this show. It's been a massive undertaking and something that I'm really proud of and I think the three of us are as well. It's been something that we've wanted to really raise the bar of the content that we're producing and that entailed a lot of work and definitely about the time of a part time job and all of us have real full time jobs and families and thinking about how we want to move forward with the show and our own lives. It just seemed hard to do those things. I'm similar to Brian. I'm actually applying to graduate school. I'm going to go back for creative writing to get an MFA in poetry. And I'm starting a class this, this spring. And it just seemed hard to imagine doing a class, a graduate class and applying to graduate school on top of teaching and doing the podcast and having a family and friends and life. So it just made sense. And so we're going to take a little pause. And I think one thing that's really special about HFPOD is that we have so much content. I have so many people that came up to me and were like, I can't even keep up with all that you're doing with listening to it. So now you get to go back and listen to top 25 tours or 40 for 40 or Rushmore. There's a lot of content for you to get caught up on and maybe when you finish that, we'll be back. But I'm really excited to have a little time to put into my own writing and my own life and I'll miss this a lot. This, these four years have really been just an unbelievably creative time for me and really inspiring and working with Brian and RJ has really just been an absolute dream and the creative. A creative apex of my life for sure. And something I'm really, really proud of. And so, yeah, we're just gonna take a little break. But we really appreciate everybody's support and understanding because we care a lot about this POD and we want it to remain as good as it can be.

[C]

I just two things I want to add. Thank you guys both for that.

[B]

I also.

[C]

Attendance bias is in here, which I want to talk about in one sec. But he said I sound like a new untenured teacher, which reminded me that I actually have to go back to grad school also starting in like two.

[D]

Months, which I all three of us do.

[C]

So I have to get a teaching certificate and you know. Yeah. And I need, just need to like prioritize my family and you know, we have put in so much time and so much effort as I hope all other listeners know. I mean, not just over the past 12 years, but especially the past, like, two or three years, because. Mostly because of, like, the projects that Brian has created. You know, these things that are like deep dives, but also fun. Like, it's just. It's been a real. Like you said, Megan, like a creative. Real creative journey. I will say, like, attendance bias is in the chat. Great, great Fish podcast. Fish Fry Pod, which I went on a while ago, also in the chat. There's plenty of fish content out there. And. And Justin Bruce is in the chat. He does an amazing eggy podcast. And, you know, all the Osiris stuff is going to continue to come out. So, you know, but check out attendance bias as well.

[B]

And.

[C]

And Fish Fry. Thank you guys for supporting us. Um, what else? I think that's it. Should we get into msg? Are we ready?

[D]

Let's do it.

[B]

Let's do it.

[C]

So, Brian, I want to ask you first. What is. I didn't tell you. Tell you I would do this before. So I'm sorry for putting you on the spot, but also not. What's your. Do you have a headline for this run?

[B]

Yeah, I actually do. Fish at a Creative Crossroads. What's next? I was thinking about it. It. You know, it's one of those things that this run felt akin to. You'll relate to this, rj. Unfortunately, not last night, but you'll relate to this in past events where you're watching your favorite sports team and they just don't have it, and they're just not. They're just not clicking, throwing interceptions. They can't convert first downs.

[C]

This all happened last.

[B]

This did. But there are those games which you. You know, of, where everything then flips, and it flips very late. I experienced this in the 2016 World Series, where the majority of that World Series, I hated the experience of the Cubs couldn't get a hit. The. In the. The Cleveland pitching was so dominant, they were getting timely hits. And then all of a sudden, late in the series, everything flipped, and we were now in a position where we were about to win the World Series. And so in the end, everything was great. But leading up to it, I hated the experience. And I say that because I didn't really love a lot of this New Year's Eve run. And then it ended in this, like, stunning fashion with one of the best third sets the band has ever played. But the whole run had me thinking, we don't have any new songs. We don't really have, like, a new jamming direction. None of that's a bad thing because the band sounds good when they lock in and they're playing. And there were great moments outside of the improv, the Peak and Fluff Head, for example, some great little set listing calls, some great bust outs throughout there. Everything sounds good. It just didn't have, for the majority of the run that kind of on the edge of danger. What's next? Oh, my God. We're all so incredibly inspired by the music we're making right now, the way that we've heard the last couple of years. And I guess it just makes me think they probably need new songs. We're probably getting a big injection of new songs in 2026. Maybe some new gear comes into play to kind of rattle the soundscapes that they're playing with. But we're kind of at that point that we've been at many times in Fish's past where it feels like ideas that they've been working through have reached an apex and we're now at a crossroads of what comes next.

[C]

What about you, Megan? That's really interesting, Brian. I did not actually even think of that, so thanks for sharing that.

[B]

There we go.

[D]

Yeah, I think my headline would be fish saved it all for the Gag and delivers one of their strongest third sets of all time. I think they really kind of kept us guessing until the end. You know, this New Year's Eve run was such a slow burn. Brian mentioned there were some really strong moments, some good bust outs, you know, some. But I feel like they really left it kind of all up to the gag to deliver. And it did. I mean, I think taking two classic songs like Hood and Tweezer and having them deliver this unbelievable third set and then have everybody leave after the gag and have a 50 minute, just focused Fish jam, it was almost like a bit of a troll because they hadn't played any long jams really the whole entire run up to then. So to me, it was pretty funny. But my favorite thing about this is the connective thread between spac, their strongest show of the year, and the gag. So I'm wondering if they decided on the GAG this summer and then decided to play that show at SPAC is kind of a little hint. I don't know, but I think there's something sort of fishy and beautiful about them playing the strongest show of the year and Spock with this Tweezer reprise and then have Tweezer being the gag for New Year's Eve. It's pretty awesome.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good. That's a good point. And I wonder. I don't know. So like Tweezer has been a big, big part of 2025, which is awesome given how long they've been playing it. It's just crazy.

[B]

Yeah. And that's another thing is like in past years they have used that slot right after Auld Lang Syne to be a new song and kind of give us this preview of what comes next. Like 2013-14 you had Fuego following Auld Lang Syne. From 2015-16 you had Blaze on Mercury was in there at some point in time, like there's been what's going through your mind. Last year was in there as kind of the new big song for Fish. There have been this kind of famously go back to 93. The Dallas Z solo is what comes out of all lying sign kind of in Hindsight previewing what 1994 fish is going to be about. This was one of the more classic set listed set threes that you could imagine. Hood2001 Auld Lang Syne, Tweezer, Piper Santos being the newest song. But like Santos feels just like a, you know, set closing Fish song at this point in time. Like it feels almost like a bit of a classic in that way. But it kind of goes back to what I was thinking, you know, the crossroads. Like when does Fish look back? They're not really a band that tends to look back. And this New Year's Eve third set completely looks back and celebrates the pasta Fish as they're kind of figured out whatever comes next at this point in time. It's just an interesting move.

[C]

Yeah. And I think like, you know, there is they. They are in the period at least Trey is for sure where they're like thinking about their legacy, you know, talking more about their past, talking more about the history, talking more about like. I think he's like reflecting on that a little more True. And he did that actually, now that we're. We're talking about other Fish content, he did that in a deep, deep way in the series Alive Again, which we were able to make with Trey on Osiris. So if you guys have never heard that, you should definitely go listen to that after this. I was going to. I wrote mine before listening to set three of last night. So it's kind of not as true.

[B]

As.

[C]

The most notable jams came from non jam vehicles up until set three of last night. You know, like, I feel like the theme from the first night and the My Friend, My Friend were like the two to me. Like most interesting Sonic places they went. But I mean just the fact that they're still doing this this far into their career where they're like like taking theme for the bottom into this like crazy 24 minute jam space is. That's pretty wild and notable, you know.

[D]

I know. I remember I was texting with some friends saying like if theme is the biggest jam vehicle of this run, that is just going to be H. And it's definitely one of the best jams. I think I like the Tweezer Piper a little more from last night, but other than that, the theme is like the best jam they played the whole week. It's crazy.

[C]

We. We probably don't have to go through every, every set list for each of the four nights, but some people do want to do that. I don't know if you guys do. I. As you know, I don't. But if someone does highlights. Let's do some highlights though. I mean, Brian, do you want to start with 12:28, like just kind of the things that you're going to go back to or. And like observations you had?

[B]

Yeah, I mean this show in hindsight was. I don't know if this is my. This is probably my favorite show of the run, maybe 12:29. Just because. Yeah, I mean, I guess partially because there's a lack of expectations going into 1228. And then this show kind of connected. I mean the first set is very kind of by the books. Let's, you know, we haven't played a show together since September. Let's just like, you know, play a few different types of songs to. To get us back in the groove. But that Wolfman's Brother felt like they connected on a dime, you know, immediately. And that was kind of the first indication that the band, if there was any sort of new style coming into this, it was that very focused kind of thick, seedy groove that they would find very Fishman Mike rooted and Trey playing kind of a very simple but kind of evil and murky riff that they would just adjust very slightly. It sounded a lot like Natural Information Society to me. And you heard it immediately in that Wolfman's going into another extended punch. The second set though, the theme from the bottom kind of picks up on that Wolfman's theme and really builds that out for an extended period in time. It's definitely one of those, you know, we're still in this prolonged era where a lot of great fish jams tend to be an amalgamation of a ton of different ideas rather than like one idea, you know, stretched out over minutes and minutes similar to what we were talking about that last week with our love for the 12 2. 99. You enjoy myself and the way that winter 99 is like one thematic theme stretched out. You got that in this Wolfman's. And then this theme from the bottom, this kind of approach that was like, why try to reinvent the whee? We found a great melody. Let's just see what we can do with it. I found that really interesting.

[D]

Yeah, I felt like the. The theme and the Wolfmans were almost like a hint of what was going to be the dominant jamming style for this whole run, which is just these hypnotic grooves. I was really excited about the acoustic sleep in the first set. Anytime Trey picks up the acoustic guitar, I am so on board for that big bust out and just sounded beautiful. I felt like the Oblivion and the down with Disease just felt like they were searching and weren't clicking with anything. And then it was really fun to hear them land in this theme, which is definitely my. One of my top jams of this run. As I just mentioned, it's so dark and sultry, edgy and it just really, really hypnotic. And I love how they're layering underneath it. They're using these like tinny thin sounds on the synths in contrast with these really warm, rich notes that Trey's playing over it. And it's a really nice place to be. And they went to it multiple times throughout the run. But really great example of it here in this theme. Pretty good for a 1228, you know, like show that you're okay to miss if you're just going to the 29th like me. But also like some good jamming and you're landing in some good spots. You're like, okay, this sound good.

[C]

I think like that. That kind of low intensity groove they get into in the theme that kind of just like, yeah, it's really cool and goes on for a long time. But then Trey kind of like uses some effects really strategically, you know, it doesn't. It's not like overdoing it, but it's like very subtle. And yeah, that was. That was a really awesome jam.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

12.

[D]

I feel like that's. That's something I just want to agree with you about because I was looking at my notes about fall and I was talking a lot about this horizontal like groove based jamming and how the effect petals now are just used so much more like judiciously. And I feel like they're. Trey's doing a really nice job with that. So I Agree.

[B]

Yeah, I was listening to a playlist I have of my favorite jam. So just the whole 4.0 era that I add to, and it's really just fun to hear now because we have so many years of this period, what they sounded like in 2022 versus 23 versus 25, and you just kind of bounce back and forth. And it's really interesting how in early 20, in 21 22, and early 23, the effects are so prominent, and they're just like. They dominate and they take over full sections, and it's like the focal point. And now, like, what you're saying, there's a little bit more of a refined edge to it. It feels almost like, you know, stylistically different. But you listen to summer 97, and everything is drenched in funk and the wah pedal, and by the time you get to 99, that's a little bit like, you know, refined, and it's a little bit more glossy, and it feels a little bit more like kind of this metallicy version of Fish that has its roots in 97, but doesn't sound as, like, abrasively. This is the new sound that we're playing with.

[C]

Okay, so 1228 shows are kind of up and down, I'd say, right?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

This was like a pretty. Pretty good way to start after not playing, like you guys said, you know, for a couple months.

[B]

Yeah. I would put this, like. So we just did the holiday run draft. I had four 1228 shows ranked 2003, 2019, 2016, and 1998. And I would put this easily in with those. Probably just between maybe just below 98. Probably this would be like the fifth, because 98 has still that Karini Wolfman's brother, phenomenal gem segment. This felt a little bit.

[D]

Who drafted that one? I don't remember.

[B]

I'll have to double check. Oh, nice. There you go. Oh.

[D]

Oh, I guess it was me.

[B]

I got 2003, though, which is the. The strongest one. So, you know, in your opinion and your hat on 98, you know, I will. But no, I mean, this, I. I think that this was one of the stronger. It's not a very. Not a well regarded date on the New Year's run. It tends to be the intro show, and I thought that this was one of the stronger ones.

[C]

Thanks for bringing the draft some more draft talk into it.

[B]

Always got to.

[C]

We got to do it. Okay, so 1229, Megan, you were there. You want to start us off here with your thoughts?

[D]

Yeah. Well, I walked in and this first set, I thought this first quarter of this first set, I was like, this is going to be the best show ever. I mean, they came out absolutely swinging with this carina plasma carini. I was just dying listening to this. I was like, this is so great. It just felt so aggressive and it felt really. I mean, they were tapping right back into that kind of hypnotic groove based jamming, but it felt really muscular. And the peak in carini when they brought it back was like super triumphant. I was like, oh my God. And then they play quadraphonic toppling, which when you were in the venue where I was sitting, I couldn't hear the samples, so I only heard the music and I didn't know what it was. And we were all looking around like, what is this? What is this?

[B]

And.

[D]

And then I go to look at my phone and there's a text from Brian Brinkman that says, oh my God. And then I realize, oh my God, this is quadraphonic toppling. And then I look it up on fish.net and it was. And I was like freaking out. It was basically one of my most favorite fish moments ever because they were actually playing it and it was beautiful. But yeah, I didn't hear the samples until I listened back. But then the curtain with like, yes, like this was such killer first quarter set listing. It was absolutely amazing. And then we've got a great bathtub gin driving. Really beautiful peak. Really great trilling from Trey, relentless playing from Fishman. Just awesome. And then the fluff head that Brian mentioned earlier, she had this massive, huge, perfect fluff head peak. Really, really like soaring stuff from Trey and Fishman playing really intricately underneath and just really strong first set, I thought, especially the first quarter.

[B]

Yeah, I thought coming out of 1228 and into this first quarter, this is, this is the New Year's Eve run. Feelings that you get, you know. And like, by the time gin ended, it felt as though we were, you know, we talked a lot about how last. The last two years, 1229 was so good. 1230 kind of dropped off as a result. For the longest time in the 2000 and tens, every 1230 was just a can't miss one of the best shows of the year. We've talked endlessly about these two dates. These are the two high, holiest dates in the fish calendar. So there's a lot going into this. And when you end that first quarter with Jin, it feels as though the magic is there. Yeah, I think you can. I enjoyed the second quarter. It's a bit, you know, here's songs, but like, you know, those are really like evolved Mountains in the Mist. Two of my favorite ballads. Nicu, great summertime feelfish song, Fluff Head ending with that kind of peak where I think things kind of took a bit of a turn. Was a fairly standard mics with some cool major keyed stuff. Very, very efficient jamming in there. But then as someone who will beg this band to play as many Caswell Box songs as possible, wherever.

[D]

Best stuff they've ever written. Brian. Some of the best writing, some of.

[B]

Some of the absolute best. 100%. I love that album and you will never get me to turn on that album. Amazing record.

[D]

Even if they put it in Mike's that.

[B]

So this is the thing. If you're going to throw in this like song that has been played nine times, nobody really knows. It kind of sounds like Blaison, which sounded like Blazon.

[D]

We all thought it was Blaze on at first.

[B]

Ultimately ends up in a really cool groove which then gets abandoned. We start to hear this theme emerge where there are strange set list calls which lead to relatively cool jamming spaces which between nine and 14 minutes, Trey becomes either annoyed by or loses interest in and just like shuts it down. And within 15 seconds we are from like open jamming into, okay, we just got to move on. Clearly that wasn't working for everyone. Even though it sounded great, we could buy groove. We get a pretty standard week about groove. We get this cool segment in the second ish or the third to fourth quarter wave of hope 20 years later, golden age. But each of them, even though Wave of Hope fell into an incredibly cool riff section that sounded very badass, very autobond, badass tray. They all kind of felt like they left something on the table. Something that during the summer run, during the spring run, definitely during that fall run, the band would have seen what's around one further corner in each one of those jams and elevated them. It felt like we were cutting things off for the sake of just getting to the next song in a way that leaving 1229, I remember feeling like, okay, we need kind of that classic 1230 show to really feel like. To really get back on pace here. From a New Year's standpoint, great playing within the show, but definitely an up and down vibe that we were talking about. As you left, you kind of felt the same sort of way. It just felt. Felt like we had it and then we lost it and we never fully regained it.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I disagree a little bit about the Wave of Hope. I feel like that jam Rules. I feel like it's very, you know, the beginning is a little slow, but the end of that jam is so strong. And the way that they're echoing that, like, really repetitive, like, intense rock riff that Trey's playing, the crescendo is unbelievable. And then there's like this satisfying return to the chorus. I think that jam is great. And without this jam, this show would have been an absolute dud, in my opinion.

[B]

You're totally right.

[D]

Yeah, it saved it a little bit, but I definitely left. It wasn't the way I left last year. The 29th being like, that was the greatest show ever. I think they definitely. I had big expectations going into the 30th. It's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, the way the show started, as you guys both said, like, you know that the Carini plasma Carini, which they kind of reprised a little bit on the 30th in a different way. Like, they're like, that was cool. And the quadraphonic top laying is like, you know, two minute bust out for all the people who are. Who get to say they saw it now on their stats. But the curtain with bathtub gin combo I thought was like, so lovely. I mean, the curtain width is just amazing every time. But the best, you know, it seems like those. Like the curtain width takes a lot of patience, you know, to kind of get through that and keep it slow and keep it going. And it seemed like, like you were saying, Brian, like Trey kind of like was going back and forth between being like, really patient and thoughtful and then being like kind of in a hurry to figure out what was next, which I maybe just with. With the big production and like, honestly, I think maybe he's just thinking about Sphere now. Like, I think he's just like, it might be like all he's thinking about because he's.

[D]

He's there now. Yeah, they're ahead. Yeah, exactly. It's true.

[C]

He said, I think to people, or I've heard that he said to people. Maybe he said this in an interview too, that, like, he's just like, he wasn't thrilled with what they were able to do at Sphere last time. Like, he had higher. Like, he has higher expectations for what they can do.

[A]

Great.

[D]

Bring it. I thought it was great. I can't wait.

[B]

That was. Go ahead.

[C]

Just given how many of my friends still send the, like, screenshot of the dog licking the. The glass, like, during. During myself. It's like that alone.

[B]

I mean, it definitely feels. It's an interesting conversation about, like, what is to come at Sphere. Because I, I definitely remember thinking coming out of it, those were four traditional fish shows within this new art exhibit. And I think that if they continue to go back there, and they've got nine shows there this spring, to kind of play around with, the opportunity for them to combine the more risque avant garde nature of their art within that space is highly elevated. Like they don't just have to play a standard song based show to elevate what that room can do. And perhaps that first year was about testing the technology in the show and they stretched out a lot of songs, you know, that fuego, the disease, the light, There's a great tweezer, great sand, there's great, great jamming from Sphere. Run one. But yeah, what can they do when they fully unleash that technology? And that technology has now had two years of updates and, you know, who knows where it's at from a innovative standpoint. Like there's just a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity with that venue that I would imagine they haven't tapped fully into now. My expectations are insanely high.

[D]

Yeah, I know. Now, now we're just like through the roof. This is terrible. This is like going to be like worse than 12:30.

[C]

Okay, well, maybe we, let's take a quick break before we get to 12:30. I think we're, I think we're good on 12:29, right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll pick back up.

[E]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turnover phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to rearrange and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@reranged podcast.com.

[C]

Osiris. All right, thanks again to you all you streaming. Keep. Keep the comments coming in the chat. Appreciate you guys and thanks you guys for listening. Thanks for listening for a decade, more than a decade. It's awesome. Appreciate you guys. Okay, 12:30, the. The holiest date in the fish calendar, Church, maybe that has. Has one of maybe two of the best shows of all time on 12:30. Two top 10 shows, many more top 25, top 30. So, you know, that's. That's what expectations do. So let's. Did they. Did they meet the expectations? Megan? It's a hard way to set it up.

[D]

You know, I think that if. Okay, the second. I'm going to say this. The second set is a perfect set list. If the Ruby Waves had been allowed to go and had not been ripcorded, I think we would be talking. Having a very different conversation right now if the Ruby Waves had stretched past 30 minutes. And I've been having a lot of conversations with people about this show because the question really becomes, does Fish need to play a big monster jam to have a big show? And I think that now in 2025, that is. Or now it's 2026. But in 2025, yes. I think we have gotten really used to Fish playing really big jams. And in their most important, biggest, most highest expectation shows, we would like to see you push yourself in the jamming space. And I think that what's really interesting about this set is you have four jams stacked up back to back. Ghost, Ruby Waves, Light, and Cross Eyed, they are all really, really good jams. There was interesting stuff happening in each of those jams. The Ghost is absolutely gorgeous. It's gauzy. It's so pretty. It builds to this really nice peak that is kind of muscular, and then it starts to fade a tiny bit. But you know, what we think about for Fish is in these moments, they usually turn the corner and kind of transition the jam into the next space. You know, it's like the yards after catch situation you guys taught me about, and they didn't. And the minute that happened, Trey got impatient and went to Ruby Waves, which to me was a great call. I was like, yes. You need to bring in your heavy hitters, your high batting average players right now. Last night, Hope Wave of hope saved your show. So let's hope that Ruby Waves can do the same tonight. And it started out incredible. We've got these, like, shimmery synths right away. Paige was, like, desperate to be jamming in this song. It's such a great version for him. And again, you have this, like, incredible crescendo. It's very similar in kind of tone and structure to the Ghost Jam, but it sounds a little bit different because of the synths and gets this really cool, like, harder edge percussion from Fishmen. But then Trey completely ripcords this jam. There's just no other way to say it. He completely ripcorded it and went into Light, which, again, like, a good call, but not, please don't ripcord it. And then again, you've got Paige trying to do the, like, let's keep this jam going with like, this beautiful jazzy piano. It's really sophisticated and smooth. And again, we don't get to hang out in that jam. We go to Cross side, which I felt like the whole room was kind of like, yes, Fishman, save us. And it's. This jam is incredible. It's spacey, but tethered to earth with this, like, grimy, percussive undertone. It's absolutely sick. And I felt like Trey was trying to end it too. I felt like the whole. Those whole four jams, it was the story of, like, the band pushing the jam forward and Trey trying to pull it back. And I don't know if I'm reading into that, but that's what it felt like to me. And the jams were great. I don't know why they ended. And then to, I think Twist and cavern. Awesome decisions there. But then first tube and drift. Just like. I feel like this is what happens when Trey kind of loses steam as he just starts playing these, like, the same songs that he always plays and it just becomes a little bit predictable.

[B]

Yeah. I almost wonder because I had a very similar reaction to you. I mean, I. I quite liked the first set. I was texting with a few friends about it. Setlist wise, it's really strong. It's a lot of classics. There's no real. There's no real duds in there. The blaze on is a little strangely placed for just like a six minute version right there. But, like, you know, kind of messing around with what Choctaws Torture means to fish in 2025. It's been such a long time jam vehicle now, you know, going back 15 years at this point in time is like, you know, 10, 15 years is a regular run stopping, show stopping jam vehicle. Having that open a show going in and out of moma Dance was, you know, it was fun, really cut, cute. The second set, I think prior to 2023 would be looked at as a very successful, relatively fluid, multiple ish segment jamming set. You know, where like, yeah, great flow, great flow, great song selection. All these songs kind of go someplace, I think the challenge, as you're noting, is in recent years, one of the things these long jams do is that they kind of remove you from the reality of I'm at a rock concert on a Tuesday night in midtown Manhattan. Like, it removes you a bit from reality. It's that escapism element. And it kind of makes the show feel like time and space have been stretched in a unique way. And when you're getting to the 14 minute mark and you kind of know, okay, now it's ready for the next segment. Let's see what we can build upon these ideas and where we go from here. And you just move into a new song. You're kind of pulled back from that strange, unrealistic place back into full cold reality. And you've got to kind of reset and having that happen over and over and over again within a set like this, where when the band has shown on this date, it's because they kind of just give their themselves over to the music and let the music just take them. And they don't really worry about one song ending and another song beginning. They just are playing. They're letting the music play them. It felt more like Trey was calling shots to kind of direct the band in a way that doesn't fully work for them from a jamming standpoint anymore.

[C]

Yeah, I think, Brian, excuse me, what you were saying about like the new song. So like Trey debuted five or six on the, on the tab tour.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[C]

Really kind of shocking that none of those made it to the, to these four shows. But right when you have it like late second set, Twist, Cavern, first tube. Like, I'm not saying a new song there would have necessarily worked either, but I think to your earlier point, like just not having new material, I think they're like, we've seen so many, so much evidence of like, it keeps Trey particularly like really motivated and fresh, you know. So like I feel like you see that in a few places with these four shows, like where it just, it's like a new song would just. It wouldn't necessarily be a huge jam, but it would give a little bit of a spark or something.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Yeah, I think that's, that's so true. And I think that throughout the year we've been talking a lot about show gap on the show and how the best shows have been like an average low show gap. And that's because they've been playing really similar set lists, but they've been jamming. And so when they jam, you don't mind if you're hearing the same songs because they're going new places, but if you're going to play the same songs and not do big jams, it starts to not be good.

[B]

It feels really. It feels like you've seen it before. And.

[D]

Yeah, because we see these shows a lot. Yeah. Like we watch everything. Yeah. So well.

[B]

And yeah, if you look at 12:28, just looking at the show gaps, because I just went through this 1228, 1229 and 1231 all have around a 17 average song gap. And that is because you have sleep, you have quadraphonic toppling, and you have Spock's brain. These two, these three really big bust outs. And outside of that, it's a lot of five to seven show gaps. And so if you look at 1230, which doesn't have any bust outs of any kind, it is a seven song gap. So you're getting this formula that, like you said, this has worked for Fish throughout this summer where. And into the fall where they're playing a very tight rotation of songs that they just know work. But if they're not letting those songs fully breathe, what's happening that we're just kind of listening to a slightly different variation of what the set listing was from September.

[D]

Yeah. And I'm sorry, but do not encore with drift while you're sleeping on 12:30.

[B]

Maybe ever.

[D]

Really don't do that on 12:30. Like that. No, no, try. I was like, is Trey surrounded by too many yes men? Like, somebody needs to say to Trey, like, what's happening? No, no.

[B]

Good buddy of mine, right when that started, just texted taxi time. Wow.

[C]

These are so mean.

[D]

I know. It's their fault.

[C]

I think, like, there's that, like what? I mean, my notes just that I just want to say quickly about that ghost. Like there's this like melancholy but ethereal kind of space there in that ghost, which is really cool. There were some really cool moments.

[D]

That's the thing. These gems are great.

[C]

Yeah. It just didn't like connect for the whole thing or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It was just impatience.

[C]

It felt like it made me think.

[B]

Of like, you know, if a show like this happens. Well, let's take like night two of the man, for example. Show you guys, we're both at rj. You're obviously at the night before a really stunning show with a huge jam that does that thing that like when you see a 40 minute jam, it kind of like the whole reality of a show on a Tuesday night. And my kids, I got to get back for their babysitter and tomorrow I got to get up and go to this meeting. Like all that's kind of altered for a period in time. And that I think that's a lot of why we do this, because they can take you into that kind of altered space for a period in time. And the next night was very herky jerky. Up and down. Didn't make a ton of sense. Macarena jamming, you know, 30 years later. Sure, why not? Had this show, 12:30, 25 been played that night. I think it works a lot better because it feels like a build from the night before. And of course they're not going to play two back to back 40 minute long jams. So like these 15 minute kind of diversions would feel. It's when it's played that I think is part of the challenge here is. Is historically this segment of the year has been the band both reflecting on what came before and also looking ahead. I think part of the challenge here is when they don't play a late fall tour, it does take them some time to get back up on their, you know, on their feet as a band and feel really comfortable diving off into the deep end. We've seen this on previous years where they haven't had a fall tour, a significant fall tour. Like we had one in September, no fish. From mid September through late December. That kind of hangover is going to affect the bands. Usually it leads to rust, but here it just seemed to lead to a lack of. I don't know if I would call it trust, but almost just like a lack of willingness to just dive off the deep end until the very end. Maybe that was part of the gag. We'll probably talk about that as we talk about 1231.

[C]

Okay, before we get to 1231, we have a question here, and I was wondering about this too, about the new floor setup. It looked like they were like. Are there chairs on the floor now?

[D]

Yeah. So they split the MSG floor in half, which I have major problems with. They split it in half and the back half were all seated. And then so they had chairs and then the front half, you have had the soundboard and all of that stuff. And then the pit. So the pit was super small. And one of the most amazing things about the MSG floor is that it's huge and there's tons of space to dance and it's never crowded and it feels amazing. And, you know, I don't fight to be anywhere except on 1230. I always want to be on the floor because it's just kind of like my tradition and I couldn't get there this year. And that really stunk because there was. There were so few spots there. It was really small. And I don't think that's the vibe. Like, I don't think having a really small pit if you don't have to is good. It leads to this feeling of exclusivity. There's like the same people are always there. I just think you want a bigger GA space at a Fish show. And so if there's any way we can get word to Fish Inc. I'm not a fan of that and I hope they don't do it again because it was really small.

[B]

It looked really tightly packed in the webcast. Like every time they would do that shot from behind Trey and you can see the people in front of him really clearly. Like they looked like they were really tightly packed in there. And one of the appeals of those spaces is they often look like there's a lot of space. There's camaraderie, there's maybe the same people up there because they put the time into getting there, but you know, they're not like sardines in there. This looked. It just looked unpleasant.

[D]

Yeah. And it's usually not like that on the Florida msg. We usually. There's usually a fair amount of space. Like really curious.

[B]

Do we. Do we know why they did it?

[C]

I wonder if it was a venue thing. Do you think it was a venue thing?

[B]

Maybe.

[D]

It doesn't seem like a decision they'd make, but yeah, it was.

[B]

It feels like the band and the venue work in unity at this point in time. Right. Like, I mean, it was operates there.

[D]

A couple years ago they stopped offering like in the lottery. You couldn't ask for fit for GA floors for MSG anymore. This happens like a few years ago and ever since then you can only ask for best available. So that was one shift and I don't know if they're continuing to try to make the shift, but I don't know. It was a weird. It was a really weird choice. I thought maybe it had to do with the gag or something, but it obviously didn't. So I don't know.

[C]

Yeah, like they were going to drive a truck in there or whatever.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought.

[C]

Yeah. Well, let's hope they never do that again. Okay. All right, let's talk about last night. Just last night. Crazy. Okay, so we got a three set show here. Obviously, as is the custom first set was kind of, to me felt a Little bit like the Ohio State game I was watching, like long and frustrating and. Yeah, that, that my friend, my friend jam is one like once again is. Is great, you know, going, but like. Yeah, there's like 20 songs and it's just sort of like. I don't know, I kind of wish like with these shows, like whether it's Halloween or New Year's Eve, that they could just like do the thing up front. So it just feels like they often just like are running through stuff, trying to get to midnight, you know, but. But I don't know. That's. Sorry, that was like, not very helpful or.

[B]

No, I feel the exact same way. Yeah, me too. There seems to be this strange like Halloween structure. Is a normal Fish set the COVID or the new album and then a normal Fish set. And that normal Fish set in the third set usually feels somewhat informed by whatever they debuted. That feels like it kind of gives them that immediate burst of energy. You think about that simple after Remain in Light. You think about the Wolfmans after playing the Velvet Underground, the Carini after playing Wingsuit. All this anticipation on their end, all this courage to debut something that is unanimously unpopular, even though it's really impactful for the band in a powerful way. And they come out play this incredible jam, you know, and that's happened a bunch. The first sets though of New Year's Eve shows and Halloween shows always like you're saying, rj, just feel like we're slogging through this, you know, it feels like. It feels like a football team trying to establish a running game that can't actually move the chains and can't do anything. So it's just a lot of three and outs and then, you know, a punt. And that's really awful. Football to watch. Like that is the most just like slow, militaristic World War I era football that like nobody wants to watch. But like sometimes you have to do that. And let me ask you, rj, because you're the one that proposed this, would you rather they turn this into a two set show that starts later or just like reimagine how to play a first set here on one of these shows?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I think the two set show that starts later might be good. It's also like, you know, I mean, I've only been to one New Year show and so I don't have a lot of experience.

[B]

Which one?

[C]

2017.

[B]

That was the only one you've been to?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow, I didn't know that.

[C]

But I remember at that show being like, I Cannot believe they're still playing. It's like two in the morning. Like, what are we doing? Like, it's like, you know, it gets to a point where it's just like, it's so late and you're like, you know, the. The gag and the All Lang Syne and all that. That's all. That's all great, you know, but I wonder if they like started at 10, you know, and it was like 10 to 1, like sort of. Sort of a regular, you know, or. Or just like fake the New Year's thing and like, do it, you know, do it at 9 o', clock, you know.

[D]

That's so weird.

[B]

By the way, 20 seconds last.

[D]

You're always off. They're always off. Or maybe just write a decent first show. Like, first set. Just write a set list for a good first set. I mean, this set is crazy. It just goes all over the place. There's no flow to it. The energy is like super bizarre. And then they save one of their best songs. Life Saving Gone is so awesome. And I know they love to close first sets with it, but I just feel like that song could serve a better purpose, like a stronger place in that set. But yeah, I just. I don't know. Thank God for the My Friend, My Friend, because that jam rules. But yeah, I don't know.

[C]

It's a good point about the set list. Like, I really like Life Beyond a Dream. My wife does too. It's like a. I love it. It's a great song. But like, if. If that set had ended after that and you didn't really need the Kill Devil Falls, the more the monsters like it, just like you said, you know, maybe they just write like a set list that works. I mean, that's what like, was so great about those kind of historic shows in the 90s, which are like those first sets of 10, 31, 95, 12, 31, 95, every Halloween in New Year's show, the first sets were like masterpieces of set listing, you know, And I feel like.

[D]

Exactly.

[C]

This is just kind of like searching.

[D]

Do you. I think. I mean, I was like, proposing this to some friends. Like, I really feel like Trey might want to think about writing set list again. And he can change if he wants, but I think that because of the high wire act that this band plays on all the time, where they're often pushing themselves improvisationally so far, you don't want to spend time thinking about what song should I play next? And I feel like when he's doing that, that's why we're getting these super tight rotations because he's like, oh, yeah, I'll just play life beyond the dreamer. Oh, yeah, I'll just play first tube and maybe just write a set list. Like, you're. You're an absolute master at writing set lists. You wrote them in the 90s when you were at your peak. Like, you can write them now that you're in your 60s and doing. You know, I don't know if he feels like it's some sort of pride thing that he's want to write a set list, but I don't know. I'm here to say, Trey, it's okay if you want to write set list again. I fully support that.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think you don't have to. And if you feel something and something stretches out, there's a way, like, you know, a lot of jam bands do this where they write out the set list and then they give out the set list to fans at the end of the show. And it's different from what was actually played because, I mean, I think that part of the thing that does work for Fish is when they stumble upon brilliance, and suddenly the show and the run, whatever changes because they found something that they're now really inspired by. But I think you're right that it's kind of why I'm so focused on curating playlists, because I just want to, at the end of the day, press play and forget about it, but have put all the thought into it. And it feels like he's doing the. It's like when you're like playing DJ at a party and you just, like, put on the classics because it's the easiest thing to go to rather than like, digging a little bit deeper into to your collection and, like, you know, something that everyone will like but also, like, will kind of shock people a little bit more. You go for, you know, the big name stuff. I also think, and I think we have to talk about this at this point in time, was part of this gag holding off jams and deliberately playing weird, non, non relistenable set list so that the final set was this absolute masterpiece. Like, is. Was there any point in their brain? These are pranksters who know, like, how we overanalyze and overthink things. Was there anything in their mind do you guys think of, like, let's just around with them a little bit. Like, let's just not go 100, because we're gonna have this amazing final set where, like, everything's just gonna work. What are you guys Thoughts on that?

[C]

No, no.

[B]

You don't think that there was any pranks for them in this?

[C]

No, I don't think they even could do that. I think they just were trying to find something.

[B]

Go on.

[C]

But just didn't, you know. I mean they did in My friend.

[B]

My friend for the first three nights.

[C]

Oh no, there's like, I mean just even that 12:30 set too. There's like, you know, those three or four songs, there's like 50 minutes of, you know, jamming between three. Like it's, you know, if, if it was all five minute songs for all three nights, then yes, you know, but I think they were.

[D]

Yeah, I think they were trying. Yeah, I have the same opinion. I mean I would love the idea that it was just really a taste test of Brian Brinkman's patience for three nights. But I do think they're probably wouldn't do that to us. But I agree if like what RJ's saying, I think you're right, RJ. If they had played literally all short songs up until then, that would be like an ultimate troll and that would be so amazing to way it would get us. But I don't ever want them to do that, just to be clear. But yeah, I felt like it just wasn't hitting but it really, really hit in the third set. So.

[B]

It did. It was amazing. Really classic set listing. It was the third set of People's Dreams. There's no Alaska waiting in here. Like we had to deal with on 12:31:11. Because I mean we should talk about this. Like set threes, historically you take them from Halloween shows, from festivals and from New Year's shows. They historically have not been like the most musically packed re listenable shows. I went through them last night as this third set was happening because I was like, okay, what are the actual comparisons here? And I came up with 1231 95, which has one of the best and you enjoy myself ever plus sea and sand. I mean just amazing fish. I came up with 1231 98, which has a very long simple and a very long hood. Kind of a gagless New Year's Eve in a really cool way. Like it just was the music was the show. Great Runaway gym in there and then 8203 from it, which is the rock and roll seven below sense and subtle sounds, spread it round. Just total jam fest. Everything segueing in and out of each other. My buddy Shout Out Ben Greenfield also offered 8 22, 15, 7, 1899 and 12 30, 99. I had those just a slight notch below. But like, those three are where the band comes out after a third or after a second set break. And they just lock in and kind of that thing we were talking about earlier, where the space time continuum kind of is gone. We're in a new realm. We're just exploring musical ideas. There's no real commitment to a rock set list. It's more experimental. That's what you got here, where the band was just by, you know. There's a point in Tweezer, I think around 13 minutes, where they start to bring it back and Trey looks at Fishman, who starts to play the. His hi hat, excuse me, as like the cue to go back into Tweezer. And Trey kind of shakes him off and they just keep going. And at that point we are in that totally, like, new musical space where the band is just having a conversation, just flowing and building. And that led into the Piper, which did very much the same thing and got into a weird distorted space at the end. That sort of sense of freedom we did not hear really throughout the entire run until the final set. That's a very rare thing. I can't think of that happening in other runs.

[D]

Yeah, I thought the way that this set was structured was absolutely perfect. I loved the lead into it with it's Ice into Cream, like, ending. That second set was super fun. And then. And coming out and having two super classic fish songs, Hood and Tweezer be the Gag, just made me so happy. It felt like such a smart thing to do. And throwback in the way that, you know, within the gag, they've got all these pieces from other gags coming out still that they do so well. Now you've got poster nut bag, like Chasing the Milkman around and, you know, you've got like all these different kind of throwbacks, which I think were great. But the fact that everyone left. Brian and I were talking about this before we started recording that everybody left all of the extras and then it was just the band for 50 minutes of deep jamming. That was awesome. I'm so happy about that. I think this Tweezer Piper, I listened to it twice in a row this morning and it's kind of the perfect mix of everything. They did well in this run. Like, the jam kicks off with these really juicy synths and deep bass from Mike. It reminds me a little bit of the tube jam from the 30th. We didn't get to talk about that. That jam rules. It's really short, obviously, because it's in tube, but it's just super gooey and juicy. And then they hit that, like, really repetitive, pretty grooving. And there's a solo that Trey takes like 16 minutes into this tweezer where his tone and phrasing was. Is so unbelievable. Like, so many moments during this run when I was in the room or listening on the couch, like, I was just blown away by how to good Trey sounds on the guitar right now. There's something so perfect about the way he's playing and the way that he's being mixed in there. And then it kind of gets dark and they use the effects and in a way really balanced way like you were saying earlier, RJ and the Piper just absolutely smokes. Full of energy. Reminds me of the cross eyed and painless jam from the night before. Really grounded with percussion, but spacey effects on top. Awesome. I thought this was incredible. And I love the encore. I think it was so fun. I love when they do barbershop stuff coming out in these little ice cream jumpsuits, which. Which I want one of those so bad now. And then Spock's brain and twee prize. It's like perfect capstone to the year 2025. Loved it.

[C]

Yeah. That the jam is really. It's really notable, you know, and that's really cool. And like we've said a few times now, it just doesn't happen that often in these types of shows. So that's really cool the way that they ended this show and this year. Based on what I said earlier about and what we all said about kind of the show and the future of the show, I just want to take a second to address a comment in the chat from Mike, who's watching on Facebook. We appreciate it. He, I think, is just saying that we are three complainers bitching and moaning from their couch about what can be better. And I just want to say, like, we've done this show for 12 and a half years, and I would say that the majority of the comments that we get that are negative are about how we are way too celebratory of the band and we should, like, try being critical for once and try say, do you have anything bad to say about Fish?

[B]

Why?

[C]

All you guys do is just talk about how awesome Trey is and how awesome Fish is. And that's generally true. But I appreciate both. Both sides of that because when you do this, like, there's no way to, you know, please everyone. So thank you.

[D]

Also, I will say it's. It's pretty boring to listen to A podcast where people just say, everything's really good. So we are critical of this band because we absolutely love them. And if you want to hear us glow, you can go listen to top 25 tours or 40 for 40, where we literally spend thousands of hours talking about how amazing this band is. So, you know, you got to take the good and the bad. And this band is so good that they deserve high criticism and analytical.

[C]

So, yeah, thank you for adding that. Okay, so this gag, like, they kind of brought back all this stuff, Right. It's like a callback, but with a new concept. And I do think, like, using Tweezer as the center of the thing is like a little. Little bit of a troll, or at least like, you know, we had a.

[B]

Great comment about that earlier from Attendance Bias. He said that I think the production company spent so much money on the Gamehenge costumes and props that they told the band we have to use them more than once before we buy new New Year's Eve eggs. I love that idea. I'm. I'm very much here for the idea that, you know, we're just going to see variations of these creatures coming back and kind of the random callbacks for. For Fish New Year's Eve to come that fun little.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Through line for the next 10 years.

[D]

I mean, the naked guy costumes have gotten a lot of legs already.

[B]

It's amazing how that great sideshow entertainment during a Rain out in Dick's 2022 has just become such a part of Fish lore. The more the years go on, the more that new ideas and jokes come into the Fish Fish world. I'm here for it.

[C]

Yeah. And I think, like, you know, obviously they have such a good relationship with the.

[B]

The.

[C]

The woman who, like, directs all this, and they're, like, partners at this point on these gags. Right. So I think it's probably. It's interesting to, like, think about how that came together, but I assume it was like, some. A lot of laughing and brainstorming and, you know, it's cool that it's not just like we're hiring someone to do this for us. It seems like it's a real, like, partnership.

[D]

Yeah. And who. Of someone who understands fish and their lore and their history. I think that's a really good point. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And this really started with Petrichor. Right. Like, that was kind of the first of these. And since. And, yeah, the Broadway production element to it. Add something new. It's another level of Fish reached in the last 10 years.

[C]

So I thought that whole thing was Great. I want to watch it again. But, yeah, really fun. We have a question in the chat here. How many more years does Fish tour? Can they make it 10 more?

[D]

Just trying to live in the moment, man.

[C]

Having them, like, touring at 70 seems hard, but also, like, bands tour with a lot older people.

[D]

I mean, how old is Bob Dylan right now?

[C]

Yeah, they're, you know.

[B]

85, Neil's 79. I just saw Paul. I saw Paul McCartney and Neil Young this year. Neil's 79, Paul McCartney's 84, and they're still doing world tours. Neil had to get a whole new band to be able to tour. Bob Weir does it. I. I mean, I think the Stone. I think things have changed. Bruce Springsteen, 75 and still doing. I mean, I think things have changed dramatically in the. From a health standpoint, from a touring standpoint, from a production standpoint, that, like, these guys can do it. I think the question is, obviously, is going to come down to do they want to. I think the. Like, when I saw. I saw Bob Dylan a couple years ago, his voice sounds better than ever. And he's got a band that matches what he does. He plays at a pace and in a manner that allows him to, I think, play in an older age. Neil's voice still sounds great. Paul was still such a showman. I think the thing that will determine this is can they take the chances that they continue, that they take, like, will we get to a point where in 20 years they're playing, but it is less intense, and it's just about being in the same room with those four guys. Like, I could see it. What seems to make more sense to me is to reduce down to more residencies, you know, MSG during the summer. Seeing how this Fear partnership plays out, seeing how Mexico continues to develop. Like, they have ways to play four to six tour stops a year on kind of a rotational basis. That doesn't put as much pressure on them from a touring standpoint. I don't. I don't know. I mean, to me right now it seems like 10. But like I said, I just saw three rock legends all, you know, the same age as our president. And they were lucid and, and, and highly entertaining. And, you know, just.

[D]

I mean, Trey's been healthy for a long time too. Like, and he is like. Like, he was jumping and dancing the entire four nights, like, just going hard.

[C]

I think, to the. To the question, like, I don't. I don't think that they ever will want to truly, like, get to that nostalgia act point. Like, I think I could see them being like, we're gonna do something totally different, you know, in five years or seven years or whatever. That's like, like, let's, let's, let's do the tour thing, like, in our way. Because I don't think they want to be 80 and like playing the hits, you know, Like, I feel like they would make a conscious effort to be like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna go out in our own. In the way that we determine, you know, it's interesting.

[B]

I mean, I do think, though, there we are in an era like Martin Scorsese just made one of his greatest movies ever in his mid-80s, 80s actors who are continuing. Like, we are kind of at a point where life expectancy, it's rising and shrinking based on intensities of the world around us. But like, healthy, wealthy older people are able to just live.

[C]

Like, they're just able to exist.

[B]

And like, this is like tapped into like a healthcare system that, that is very different from most people and, and a ability to get to these shows and play these shows without the kind of physical rigor. I think, though, like, playing a three and a half hour concert with, you know, we're in an era where they've played some of their most transcendent music and transgressive music that they've ever played. Like, some of the most highly experimental, probably really challenging, communicative type of music that they've ever played. How much longer can they play at that level while they're aging? Dylan released one of his best albums ever at 80. Like, it can, it can happen. I will. I don't know. I don't know.

[C]

So I guess let's, let's like, close out by talking about where, where, where is 2025? Like, where are we? Where is fish in 2025? Where are we as fish fans in 2025? Like, where. Where do you guys, like, what do you guys see this year as in terms of, like, I don't know, any summary headline thoughts?

[B]

I think something shifted in early 2023, and we're still. We're in maybe the later stages of that. You know, I opened this by saying I felt like this run feels like Fish is at a bit of a creative crossroads about what comes next. Maybe they come back in four weeks and play Sphere, and we're just this prolonged period of really high quality Fish for a variety of reasons. Set listing, jamming, the way that the gear is working just continues. Maybe they kind of shake things up again like they've done in past eras, 96, 2016 comes to mind where it feels like a real transitional year. I don't know if that's going to happen. We'll. We'll see over the coming months. But something clearly changed in my ears in early 2023 and we're still at that level right now, albeit slightly different jamming styles. And for whatever challenges I found this run to have and whatever, you know, like whatever lack of highs on the 29th and 30th that we've come to expect from those dates happened, I still feel really good about where Fish is at based on the high points of what they played over the last four nights.

[D]

Yeah, I think thinking back to this year, I mean, this summer was an unbelievable tour. It was. You know, we talked about it being in our top 25 if we redid that series. It was an absolutely fantastic tour. It peaked right at the end and had this like incredible crescendo to the end. The fall tour was strong. Not as strong as the summer, but strong. And I think if this run had had like two 30 plus minute jams, we'd be saying that the year ended on a really high peak too. So I think, you know, my feeling is that Fish is still at a really, really good place creatively, but that they deliver their strongest material and shows when they're pushing their patients and delivering really long jams. And I think that's just where the fan base, or at least me, what I find the most interesting about what they're doing right now. So I am excited for some new music and hope that next year brings some new music and new ideas with the Sphere. I think this is gonna be really, really inspiring to him. I think you're right, rj. I think that it's gonna really drive the band forward in a way that's exciting and maybe we'll have a new album for next Halloween and that will affect summer and fall. So, you know, I don't know. We'll see. See exciting stuff. It could be a really, really great year for Fish next year. Yeah, I guess it's this year.

[B]

This year?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it is interesting, the levers that they can pull that they didn't pull. Like there's no. There hasn't been Halloween since 21. That the last Halloween.

[D]

Is that true?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Wow, that's crazy.

[B]

I bet last festival was 24. I don't know. I mean, it does feel like there are certain things that they didn't do this year that when. If you think of like the 2023, the brilliance of that year. You had so much of that summer tour leading up to a seven night MSG run where they feel really comfortable. 2024, you had to build up to the festival. That gives them a lot of inspiration as they're, as they're playing throughout the year. 2025 didn't necessarily have those things. You know, it had Mexico, a spring run that felt very similar to 2023, a summer run that hit a lot of like, you know, familiar venues, kind of an off year, fall run, you know, no dicks within that structure. And then msg, like it felt like the types of situations that they put themselves in to be really focused creatively, they didn't necessarily apply this year from, from a form standpoint. And so we got really good fish. But like, there are other ways that they can rejigger their inspiration and, you know, find new ideas. What, what are your thoughts, rj?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think like the new, new material will definitely come this year. You know, I think it kind of has to like it's been. Yeah, it's been a little while, so that's exciting, you know. Yeah. I mean, just thinking about like this back show and what they did last night, like they're still, I think we say this a lot, but it's like they're still doing new and interest and that's just like, it's really inspiring and mind blowing, you know, that they're like, they could have mailed it in so long ago, you know, and still made as much money, if not more, you know, and they're just like, it's just not who they are. And it's really cool that they're like, they're still, still the band that they were 40 years ago. They're not settling, they're not like mailing it in, they're not compromising. They're just like doing their thing, which is just, it's amazing.

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

Really amazing.

[B]

I think that's part of the beauty of where we're at right now is I don't think there are any more questions about can they continue this on a year after year basis. Like, yeah, this is even, even different from years prior to last year where New Year's Eve would end and we'd have eight weeks off. Like the band is back this month. By the end of this month the band is playing.

[D]

So true. That's wild.

[B]

And those shows will set the tone for what comes later. And right after that they have Sphere. And like RJ said, like, maybe their minds are just like, maybe they're just the production of this, what's going into it is so intense that that's where their heads are at at this point in time. And you have to presume another summer tour, they're just continuing to go. And it's funny to think about periods where the band could have called it quits since they came back in 2009, and what they would have accomplished at that point in time, but also what would have been unwritten. I think that's one of the cool things about where we're at right now, is like, there's a. There's a chance something's going to happen, or multiple things are going to happen in 2026 that are going to reshape how we think about this band in some ways, like going into 2025, not knowing that they were going to play that spac Night three, that whole. The whole spac run, you know, where. Where it's just so focused so, you know, intense, such layered communication and musicianship. That is, like, why you go see this band. There's something like that on the horizon. Probably not at Folsom, but somewhere else, where that's going to happen.

[D]

Well, you know, if there's anything we know about Fish and that we learned throughout all of our series is that Fish is all about evolution. So they'll keep evolving and we'll keep being there for it.

[C]

We will. And we will keep evolving, too. As we said at the beginning, we are pressing. We are pressing the pause button here that we have. We. It's a. It's a rarely used, powerful button that we have, but we really just want to say we just appreciate you guys so much and, like, you know, at shows and online and, you know, coming up to us and saying hi and, you know, appreciating us, it's all very, very felt. So I just appreciate everyone listening so much.

[B]

Yeah, this has been. I'm coming up on eight years and starting the podcast and has been a really just, I don't know, like, fully immersive, a lot of learning, a lot of really cool communication, a lot of just great opportunities to collaborate with people who think both similarly and differently about this band and work to try to understand them. That's kind of always been the goal here, is we. We all come from relatively different places, but similar places when it comes to what we find fascinating about this band and trying to just dive as deep as possible to understand why this band makes us tick. I think at the end of the day, that's always been the goal of this show. And I appreciate you guys allowing me to push as many ideas as possible and force you both to spend as much time analyzing and thinking about jams and eras and what this band means, because it's been a huge, huge source of inspiration, huge joy for me. I think we're all sad to take a little bit of a break, but I think we all know we're at a point where if we can't put the time and effort into this that we have, it's not going to be the way that we want it to be. It's not going to be the way that you guys want it to be. And at the end of the day, I don't really want to do this in a half assed way. I don't really want to just jump on and be like, cool. What'd you like? What'd you like? What'd you like? All right, we'll see you guys later. Like, I want to get into the weeds. I want to talk about why this band blows my mind. Why this band sometimes pisses me off like a child. Like, you know, a good friend. Why this band confounds me. Why this band leads me to other music. Why this band presents more questions and answers. Like, there's just a lot about this band I always want to dive into. I'm excited to do that more and kind of looser conversations. But I think we all know if we can't do that, like, you know, time to take a pause and we feel good about what we've done the last couple of years.

[D]

Yeah, I'm really proud of it and I really appreciate all the listeners being so supportive of me and Brian and rj letting a girl who had never podcast jump on with, you know, right into the deep end and learn how to do this while I was doing it. And these four years have been just absolutely incredibly inspiring to me and really thankful for the opportunity that Osiris and RJ and Brian gave. You know, it's nice to have a female voice in the scene and you guys really made sure that that happened and I'm appreciative of that and I know a lot of women are too. So thanks, everybody. It's been fun and you never know. We've, you know, age of pod tried to take a break before and it came back. So we'll see. Maybe that'll happen again.

[C]

It's true. Well, we. Yeah, I guess there's no good way to sign off, so we will just, yeah, say we'll see you. We'll see you soon.

[D]

I think that's everyone.

[C]

Is that the best way to do it? Can we do that?

[D]

I think so. All right, everyone.

[C]

See you guys soon.

[B]

Sam. Foreign. Hi, it's will cooley from the new york rangers. Bring in the new year with me in miami. The NHL winter classic is coming to the sunshine state. Watch as we take on the florida panthers in the 2026 discover and NHL winter classic in miami. Catch all the action on january 2nd at 8pm eastern on tnt and hbo max. That's january 2nd at 8pm on tnt and hbo max. For tickets and more info, visit NHL.com winterclassic.