C (1:47)

Make it interesting for the.

A (1:49)

Is the tough thing, you know, it's crazy. We gotta play the Cavaliers tonight in Cleveland. Not. Look, that's not. It doesn't seem like a good. A good option, you know, I don't know.

B (1:58)

That's not a good. It's not good for you?

A (2:00)

No, it's not good for you.

B (2:01)

I mean this is the first time we're recording after potentially the best baseball game ever played. Any thoughts here, Meg? What were your thoughts when Victor Robles hit the game tying home run?

C (2:13)

I'm sorry, what? I did not watch the World Series. I'm sorry, I. I am not a massive baseball fan. I will go to Wrigley and have A Chicago dog and dance during the songs when people come up to plate. I will go to any baseball game. You want me to go to anywhere and have a great time. And if people want to have it on in the house around me, I'm totally cool with that. But it's just. It's not really something I seek out.

B (2:46)

I probably watch or will you not watch a Game 7 on your phone in the middle of a crowd at a concert with other people.

C (2:58)

It's probably not going to be my first go to, but it sounds like a Brian Brinkman thing to do.

A (3:03)

It really does.

B (3:04)

Big Time had a crowd around me at Aggie on Saturday night, all watching baseball. We were still hanging with the band. I knew what was going on. I was still calling out songs. I was still telling Ryan what songs were to update the set list. I still knew what was going on, but I also had it in my hand was. It was great, big, big vibes, though, to Glenn Russell. I don't want to. We don't want to pile on to his pain. That is. That is one of the most. As a fan of the Chicago Cubs, that's one of the most gutting losses I've ever seen any team go through. And I hope you're doing well. Long winter, but baseball will be cut. Will come back renewed always.

A (3:41)

I've streamed. I've streamed a lot of Ohio State football games from Fish shows. More than I. More than I. They're mostly bowl games. But if a fish shows on a Saturday night in the fall, I mean, what. What am I supposed to do?

B (3:53)

What are you supposed to do?

A (3:54)

No option.

B (3:55)

It's. It's their fault for scheduling it. Yep.

A (3:59)

Yep. Okay, so we are going to talk about Wave of hope. We have. We do have. If anyone's in the New York area, New York City, that is. Or New York State, I guess. But. But mostly New York City. We're going to be. I'm going to be up there on Friday and Saturday seeing Reprise at Brooklyn Bowl. They're gonna have Cotter from Goose on drums for both of those shows. Recreating the Texas 97 show. 725 and 726. 97, which is going to be really fun. Sort of a tribute to Bob Galati and. And just having Adrian and Cotter play together, which is going to be pretty wild because they're both like pretty serious animals on drum kit. So I'm excited about that. So you guys should come. If you're in the New York area and maybe you didn't even know about it until now, but hopefully you did. But if not, you should come.

B (4:44)

Yeah.

C (4:44)

Please come say hi. I'll be there too. I'm so excited. I'm also recording another episode of A Moment with Meg this weekend, so that'll be out soon. It's been a while. I'm excited.

A (4:54)

Been a moment.

C (4:56)

It's been a minute, but it's coming back.

A (4:58)

That's awesome. That'll be great. Okay, so that's all we have to say here because Evdude. Come say hi.

C (5:05)

Oh, my God. Come say hi. Come say hi, please. We have to meet finally. That would make me so happy.

A (5:11)

Now one of us had to be there as well. I see you there. BT to boot. I can't wait to see. He's seen maybe more reprise shows than I have, which is saying something. He's a loyal. A loyal fan. One of us has to be somewhere at some point soon. So we are going to limit our pre show bullshitting to maybe just 26 minutes instead of 30 so we can make it through this whole episode in an hour. Brian, does that sound right?

B (5:39)

I mean, Megan, I have been bullshitting for 30 minutes, hanging out, making sure that you were still coming to the podcast, you know, but whatever, whatever. Carry us on through.

A (5:49)

Hey, hey. I'm. I'm getting better at being on time. All right, so we're talking about Wave of Hope. Megan, what do you. What do you want to tell us before we get into it? Because we're gonna have to. We're gonna have to, you know, hear a little bit about this song. I think everyone probably knows because it's pretty new, but. But I'm sure there's a story there.

C (6:08)

Well, whether you know or not, you know, I'm going to tell the story, rj. So I think this one, we got to go back to 2020 and remember what it felt like in 2020 and how many of us were living in quarantine and feeling really lonely and isolated. And remember that time when Trey started releasing those videos of the songs that he was recording in his home studio? And in July of that year, Trey released his 11th solo album, Lonely Trip. And it was during March to July of 2020. And he has called this album his message in a bottle for that time. And it's a really hopeful album. 16 new songs and a punchy rocking version of Wave of Hope was the second track on Lonely Trip. And the music and lyrics are by Trey. It was also re recorded by the full band for their 2024 album Evolve. And Trey first debuted this Song live during the beacon jams on October 9, 2020. And that night he also debuted four other songs from Lonely Trip. And Fish debuted the song in the middle of the first set, Deer Creek on August 7, 2021, the next time it was played. It opened a show that fall and it also had a really big moment in the gag set on 42222 at MSG. And the following month it opened a set two. But by Deer Creek 2022, it really found its home in the second set. That night it was played in slot two of set two. And it us has either opened set two or been the second song and it's really kind of found its footing that night. That was the first time it really went deep. It went for 18 minutes and now it's really taken off as a second set monster. It's often a tentpole jam of the show. It's also been played by Tab. It's been played by Trey Trio. Even Mike Gordon has played the song with his group a few times. And Fish has played the song 37 times, averaging 5.6 shows since its debut. So it's played every five or six shows and it has 16 entries on the jam chart. So it has a here it goes, guys, 43% chance of jamming, which is one of the highest in the game. And we curated 13 HF pod versions that we chose from for our top four Mount Rushmore versions. And I just want to say this song is really interesting because it is the perfect example of kind of dad rock Trey, like Sober Love and Light Trey. But it also in a weird way reminds me of some of their older, darker songs like Waiting in the Velvet Sea or Theme from the Bottom, because those are songs where the lyrical metaphors really carry into the music. And the jams in Wave of Hope to me, often feel propelled by a current which otherwise known as John Fishman. They have this forward momentum. They feel like they're gliding on water and then they often crescendo and effects and energy and atmospheric floating. And to me they're really. They kind of do remind me of ocean waves. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's become such an inspirational jam vehicle for the band is when you have a really strong metaphor in the song. I think it can often be a place to jam off of. That works really well.

A (9:28)

I know Brian's got some data for us too, I guess. Before I. Before we get into that, I just want to say I think I mentioned last week that we were going to have Another guest on Today, but tomorrow I'm actually going to do a quick conversation with the folks who do Music on the Mountain. The Phoenix presents with Brian Murray from Dogs in a Pile, and we're going to be talking about a bunch of their shows and what Music on the Mountain is doing raising money for Divided Sky Foundation. So we'll talk Dogs in a Pile also. So just. That'll be tomorrow, I think we'll do it live on here and then I'll release it as an episode. So keep an eye out for that. Okay. Brian, what else? Do you want to add anything to what Megan said?

B (10:07)

No, I mean, I think as we. As we worked through this list, we've done a couple new, er, songs in the Rushmore list. We did Sigma Oasis recently. I think that that was the most notable new Ish Fish. So. So we wanted to throw a few of these in throughout this first year as we're going through Rushmore. And I think you know where Sigma Oasis has had, I think from a song standpoint similar to Wave of Hope, that really harkens back to the way we felt in 2020 in a lot of cases. Sigma Oasis, from a jamming standpoint, I think we kind of came to the conclusion. We still think that, like, the best is to come with that song. There's been some fantastic versions that we highlighted here, some fantastic versions throughout the last couple of years. I think there's a version from Birmingham that we would include on this list. Now, Wave of Hope, slightly different just in the sense that I don't think there has been any sort of, like, up and down. Is it a jam vehicle anymore? Is it just like a song that propels the start of a set? Wave of Hope is kind of our signature jam vehicle of the 4.0 era. And the versions that we are going to talk about here, they're gonna leave some great versions out. This is part of the challenge with a song like this is we've had so many monumental versions and so many versions that are like a tier 2 of the song, but are still outstanding versions, all things considered, in the era. But I think that one of the things that defines the song as a jam vehicle is the focus that it seems to have on pushing as far out into the open as possible in a way that harkens back to Bowie Mike song Tweezer, obviously from, like, the 94, 95 period. This feels similar to the sense of the way that they approach Ruby Waves as the song that when the band is ready to just get out as far away from shore as possible. They go for this.

A (12:10)

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's. It's an awesome song. When they played at the man this summer, I mean, I've seen it I don't know how many times, but, you know, a handful. And I feel like when they played at the man this summer, I was, I thought to myself when they started, like, I really like this song, which I probably knew before, but I really, like, I was excited to hear it after listening to these 13 versions twice now, I'm. I'm like, good for a little bit.

B (12:32)

But I do think that way too.

A (12:34)

Yeah, but it's a great, It's a good song and it, like just the, the tempo that it comes out with is just. It's great. Like, it's a, it's a, it's an energetic song. There's some, there's some conversation about, about Sigma Oasis in the chat, comparing the two. Like Sigma Oasis can. It's just not as. It's not as high tempo. Right. So, like, it's just, it's kind of a different thing. But I like, I like Wave of Hope because it comes out kind of like feels like it's coming out really strong every time.

C (13:04)

I mean, I think the way that Fishman plays in Wave of Hope pushes the jams to be super, super propulsive in a way that's really exciting and fun to listen to and probably why they tend to go so far out. Like Brian was saying, the jams of this song are incredible. I've heard this song nine times, which I feel like is really interesting. It's almost a third of the time it's been played, but I see a lot of 4.0 shows, so I guess.

B (13:29)

Maybe that's why I think that this song. I don't want to be too contradictory too early in the podcast, but I think that this song is one of those examples of a song that is improved by the jamming a thousand percent.

C (13:45)

I agree with that statement.

B (13:48)

Like, I think personally, if they played five minute versions of Sigma Oasis for the rest of history, I love that song.

C (13:57)

Yeah.

B (13:58)

If they played five minute versions of A Wave, personally, I would start to rebel. It is in for me in the category of the Rise Come Together All Stars. If it jams so good, if not, what are we doing now? That's just me. I have to just, you know, that's the caveat there. But when this came out, I got a lot of anger for my take that this was my first protest song. You know, like, this is like Fisher Price My first protest song type of thing, and I still feel that way when I hear it.

A (14:38)

I think I've only seen it five or six times, but as I noted in one of my notes here, like, I can't believe how many MSG versions there are. Like, it has to be a record for the versions of a song. That's probably why, percentage wise.

C (14:50)

Yeah. That's probably why I've seen it so many times. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

B (14:54)

I think.

C (14:55)

Do you ever think that there are certain songs that Trey's like, if we don't jam this, I'm not gonna be allowed to play it or the fans won't be. I don't think he really thinks allowed, but you know what I mean? Like, is this song gonna be, like, tolerated if I don't jam it? Like, I. I don't think that's definitely how I feel.

A (15:10)

Definitely how I feel about Soul Planet. Like, for sure. Like, if you're not gonna jam that song, then just, like, just don't bother.

C (15:17)

Yeah.

A (15:18)

Which is why when they do the, like, the 40 minute Soul Planet, it's just to. It's just to show us that he's paying attention, you know?

C (15:23)

Yeah. That he's listening.

B (15:26)

Right. Yeah. I think that that's. That's part. I feel like Trey seems very into this song that he would not care what we think of it.

A (15:35)

Yeah.

B (15:35)

But I also. It would be a sign, though, if the band, like, either. If they stop jamming it, you would think it's either because they have moved on their jamming style, and it doesn't fit their jamming style as much as it did during this era, or because they've grown sick of it. And who knows, you know? And that would, you would imagine, lead to them not playing it as much anymore, but who knows? I mean, still, this is the golden age of, well, Wave of hope. I think we're living in it right now.

A (16:08)

Yeah, definitely we are. So let's get into it. Let's get the first version out there. Brian, do you want to go first?

B (16:18)

There's a later one I'd like to do, but I'm happy to go first here if I can. If I can do the two slot this. This time.

A (16:24)

Okay. Megan, do you want to start or do you want me to.

C (16:26)

I just don't want to do the second one.

B (16:30)

Okay. So I want to do the first and third. So, rj, can you do the second?

C (16:36)

I'll do the last one then.

B (16:37)

You'll do the last one. Okay.

C (16:38)

Good Housekeeping on ert. So there it is, guys.

B (16:42)

Really, Really. I just. There's one I gotta say some stuff about.

C (16:47)

Yeah, it's fair.

B (16:48)

So our first version is. I can pull up all of our information. You guys are just getting a total behind the scenes stuff here going on. So our first version comes from the summer of 2022. This was, as Meg noted, the birth of A Wave of Hope as a jam vehicle. We heard a fantastic version on June 4, 2022 in Deer Creek. It was coined almost immediately as A Wave of Hope Dope. Because it was just a killer version that just surprised everyone. Kind of an up and down show. They played Sick 2 Jam, you enjoy myself to kind of put a stamp on that. That is now a fixture in the. In the Fish rotation. And then they played A Wave of Hope, which ended up being just a phenomenal version. But a month and a half later, they played a version that would surpass that and continues as one of the best versions of this song. And that is, of course, 7 24, 2022 from Hartford. This opens the second set. This kicks off a really, really stunning third quarter of that second set. That reads A Wave of Hope into a song I heard the ocean sing into blaze on. And if you click on the fish.net set list from 724 22, you just see a total Trey Bliss moment, picture included. Which is. Which is really this version. To me, this is when we get the birth of this as a true jam vehicle. There's always that one surprise. Oh my God, they're jamming this song. And then is that gonna actually linger? Is it going to be like a rise come together where you get one jam off of it and you don't really hear from the song ever again for some strange reason? Or is this going to start to be a song the band is gonna focus on? And when they returned for their summer tour with a relatively extended but still somewhat in the box version from Great woods and then this version from Hartford, this is really where they take that next step. For me, this jam is all about the three minutes from 14:30 to 17:30ish, where Trey is just channeling another Green World era. Brian Eno. It is. It kind of has like a science fiction feel to it. The organ's really nice in it. Trey's effect that he's using to. To kind of recreate this just like atmospheric guitar riff. It's so intentional. It's so beautiful. Fishman understands like to bring things down here and let Trey take the lead as the band continues to move forward and that within the larger jam that surrounds it, just showcases kind of a, Like a very regal approach to jamming. The band, clearly, in a summer that featured some ups and downs, clearly locks in during this period in time. This spills over into the song I Heard the Ocean Sing and the Blaze. On both are extended versions. Very unique versions. This show we talked about in relation to 2022 during our 40 for 40 series. And every time I go back to this, this. This is my second favorite jam of the entirety of 2022. And it just sounds like a band that you could pull this out of that year and put it in any other year, in 4.0, and it would just sound like the band at the absolute apex of where they're at right now. So very locked in that driving, propulsive energy, but also the diversions towards a bit more space, a bit more contemplative playing. These are things that we would hear in future versions of A Wave of Hope that really signify what makes this song so brilliant as a jam vehicle. So, you guys, thoughts?

C (20:47)

Yeah. This is one of my top two versions of this song. This is my second favorite. I think it is a perfect example. The beginning of this jam has that Fishman just completely pushing it so hard. And it sounds like timber at times. It just has that, like, relentless feeling to it. And then Paige gets on the organ, and when Trey puts his effects on the guitar and he finds 15 minutes, that really melodic, repetitive line, it's so sweet. And he's got that kind of muted bass effect that he was using that year a lot. And the way they creep out of that and find that really sick dark space is so cool. And I love the second half because it's a space jam, but it's really driving. And I think they're able to kind of hold on to the pulse, even though it's really effect heavy, which I think is really an accomplishment and something that I really love about this jam. And the way Fishman is playing it, like 20 minutes in is just so insane. I don't even know how he's. These Wave of Hope jams, if you just listen to Fishman, it's enough to keep you entertained. But the way that the Trey ends, too, it's so emotional. It's really great. I think the flow in this jam is excellent.

A (21:55)

Yeah, I think in the summer 2022, as Brian mentioned, sort of ups and downs, and I feel like they're trying to figure out this song. And I think what makes this version great is, like you said, Meg, the tempo but the also just what you were talking about, Brian, with the effects, like, compared to some of the other versions from that summer, the use of the effects in the Jam by Trey, which he kind of was up and down in terms of how much he relied on the effects versus some of the clean playing, which we heard in another version of this from that summer. But this is the best use of it because it makes the build and the ongoing build of the jam so much more, like, multi dimensional, you know, when you're, like, layering those effects in a way that keeps the momentum going, as opposed to sometimes when it just, like, sounds like he's just, like, kind of pressing buttons, you know? And this one is, like, a really good use of that. I think this is, like, the best example of, like, how he was kind of trying to get the layering of all those different effects in 2022.

B (22:58)

Yeah, the further we get from this year, the more I find myself interested in going back and listening to it, because it does very much sound like they caught unexpected fire in 2021 and then had to kind of figure out, okay, how do we sustain this? And so in 2022, you got a lot of these. Should I be relying on these effects? Should we be playing more off of them? What should we ultimately be doing is. There's a bit of an up and down there. Two quick notes before we move on, because this is a historic version of A Wave of Hope. Now, we now have two jams from 7, 24, 20, 22. So this now gets these special highlights in our master doc to show that this is not in the same. These are not in the same set, but these are from the same show. The Sigma Oasis from 7, 24, 20, 22, as well as the Wave of Hope from 7, 2420. So that's a show that, if you are unfamiliar with, you should definitely check out. And I just want to address this question because I noted this is my second favorite Jam of 2022. Ed asked, what's your top jam? Yeah, it's a tease. It's a big tease. Number one is the 7, 23, 22 set your soul free. So those are one and two for me. But, yeah, this is just an unbelievable example of a band being locked in. This feels to me like a throwback jam almost to certain late 90s shows where they would just open up with a song of the moment and you kind of knew you were just guaranteed 18 to 25 minutes of jamming. It just felt like they came out, knew what they were going to do. Didn't know what was going to happen, but, like, knew that they were going to take this song long. And then brilliance ensues.

A (24:51)

Brilliance ensues just like this. Just like this podcast. Okay, yeah, I'm going to do. I'm going to do number two here. The one that, that nobody wants to talk about for some reason.

B (25:00)

Okay, so I'll talk about this.

C (25:02)

I'll explain why after I think about this.

A (25:07)

We have. You know, there's. There's many MSG versions of this song, as we mentioned, because most of the versions have been played in. In msg, so it's just how it goes, odds wise. But I. I mean, I think this, this version to me is. Is just like a. An exercise in patience and kind of like experimentation, you know? Like, I. When I listened back to this version, I was surprised by how many times, like, I thought it was gonna end and then it didn't and how many different parts there were. There's like a part in there that feels to me like a. Almost like a split open and melt kind of vibe. And then there's like. There's like three times when it feels like it's going to, like, fizzle out and go into something else and it doesn't. And then it builds back into, like another effects jam and then there's like a really cool jam toward the end and then another peak at the end. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a monster version. 12, 28, 23. I don't think I was at the show. I don't think. I don't think I was at the show, but 23ish minutes. And I mean, there. It's the, the ending. I think if it wasn't for the ending, I don't know if I would have, like, thought that it definitely belonged on, on here because I think that's what kind of brings it all together. But there's so much going on here and so many, so many areas for them where Trey could have recorded it. And there were so many, like, exit ramps and they just kind of kept. Kept going for. For 23 minutes, I thought. I think it's a really, like, impressive. It's like an endurance jam.

C (26:36)

Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. I had to be convinced to have this on the list, I'll admit. I think this was our last slot that we added, and I am ultimately convinced. I think it deserves its place, for sure. I think for all the reasons you said, rj. And I think anytime the band is gonna persevere and Push through a jam. I think we should applaud that. And the back half of this jam is so excellent. I think it finds its direction and it's just. I think it's credible. Trey finds that spark and they build on it, and it's so positive and moves so deftly through that section. I just. The beginning of it is, to me, what. What is sometimes a little bit of. My problem with Wave of Hope jams is that they sometimes feel like they're throwing everything and seeing what sticks, and it feels a little bit directionless. And to me, the narrative arc of this jam is confusing because kind of has this weird effect, heavy atmospheric feeling in the beginning, and then it goes into this contemplative, softer place. And then out of nowhere, it just starts. Fisherman just starts driving the pace, which was a good idea because the second half is awesome, but it's just. And it might just be me and what I prefer. And I just prefer. There are so many versions of this jam, of this song that feel composed in a way. The jam feels so narrative. The next one. The next two we're going to talk about are just incredibly. They have incredible flow and have a really great narrative arc. And this one is just. Almost has two.

B (28:15)

Right.

C (28:15)

Has two different pieces, which I think is. Is fine. And it's just something that I had to get used to. But I do think it's one of the four best versions. So I'm glad you convinced me.

B (28:28)

I definitely. I mean, I think this was, as I recall because I had this off of my list and RJ brought it to the table as a. Hey, this sounds to me like something that should be here for X reasons. And I think we all listen to it as a result. And I think you're absolutely right. There is a. Not, like, disjointed, but there. There's two jams here. And I think that the. The thought process, at least from my end with why this should be here, is that that is. That willingness to have this almost relentless pursuit of the unknown is something that defines a wave of hope as a jam vehicle. And this sense of risk taking, this sense of almost danger, if you will. Like, this is when they play this song in the second slot of the second set on the opening night of an MSG New Year's Eve run, you know, without question that there's like a decent amount of pressure right now. That's just, you know, the. What that run signifies for Fish on an annual basis. And this is kind of that first chance, usually for the band to really showcase how they're feeling from an improvisational standpoint. And then being willing to take this much of a risk and work through something that is working, but not really leading towards the level of transcendence that you would anticipate from most fish jams at this point in time, you know, at this point in the year, is really significant to me. The. The fact that it shifts midway into this kind of evil minded, full band connection. This feels like a preview of where they're going to go overall in part of 2024. And then building to that massive peak, you really reinforce the fact that they're focused on, you know, building this song into a centerpiece jam. Those last five minutes are almost like an effort of we need to turn whatever we just worked through here into something that people are going to want to return to time and time again. And you get that with that peak and that effort put into this, I think is so signifying of where Wave of Hope is now. If we do this in five, 10 years, maybe a version like this is optimalist because we don't necessarily need to show the work of what it takes to create a jam vehicle. But I feel like where the song is right now, a version like this is so essential.

A (31:04)

That's, that's, that's what we got, Brian. I appreciate closing that out. Okay, so we got two more versions. We're going to talk about some other versions, probably all the ones that are being mentioned in the chat. But let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the next two monster Wave of Hope gems.

B (31:23)

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranged. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@reranged podcast.com.

A (32:29)

Osiris all right, so who's taking us forward?

C (32:38)

I Think Brian wanted to do this one?

B (32:41)

I got to do this one.

C (32:42)

You got to. You got to.

B (32:45)

This is where the whole bias comes into play here. Now this is Mexico 222, 24. I think everyone watching and listening knew that this version was going to be on here. It would be a pretty awesome troll move on our behalf to just be like. Well, actually I don't really like the fact that around 13 minutes, Dre and Fishman completely changed the jam. So I'm going to take this off. But, you know, I think we all know that this has to be here. This is a 35 minute version. The longest wave of hope to date. I did go to this one, Ed. Thank you. I did, Yes. I was at Mexico 2024. So I just re listened to this like an hour ago. And this is one of those jams that I try to kind of hold off listening to so much, just so it feels fresh all the time. It's admittedly a bit of a mess until it sorts itself out around 14, 15 minutes. Similar in some ways to 12, 28, 20, 23. But once it figures itself out and Fishman and Trey lock in on this much faster repetition and this kind of hard edge jamming style, there's like this wild no holds bars exploration that builds off of what I heard myself in the 23 version that we just talked about. You also get this shift around 25:45 where they move into this kind of quadraphonic, top lane, dream space jam that really dominates for the next seven or eight minutes and really ends up being this like in the same way that those. That jamming segment in the Middle of the 7, 24, 22 version shows this kind of peace and tranquility, this like oasis of just blissful jamming with no interest in pe, with no interest in like the white lights element of a fish show. This is all about. We found this crazy musical space that we would never have found if we hadn't played all the preceding music. And we were just going to live in here. And that's something that happens with the great jams and the great jam vehicles throughout fish history. I was thinking about it though, as I was, as I was listening to this. Do you guys have any idea how many different 30 minute jams have been played in fish history?

C (35:11)

I feel like we talked about this once when we did our like post 25 minute jam, but I forgotten since then.

B (35:18)

So 30 minute jams, there have been 60 in fish history.

C (35:21)

60, 60, wow.

B (35:24)

Of those. And that is not including secret sets that's not including sound checks, just performances within a fish show, 60 of them. And within those 60, 29 different songs have been employed for a 30 minute jam.

C (35:40)

Wow, that's a lot. It's a lot of different songs.

B (35:43)

It's a lot, but it's also a little. It's like, you know, it's. There's. We're talking about a catalog that is upwards of 250 songs with covers even more than that. And only 29 of these have been employed towards a 30 minute jam. One of them obviously here being A Wave of Hope, which I think just that fact alone signifies how much the band cares about this song and really feels that this song, in the same way that Ruby Waves has done since late 1.0, in the same way that Tweezer and Bowie did in the mid-90s, the same way Disease has throughout much of their career, this is a song that just ultimately showcases the band being locked in having this kind of hyper connection. There's something about when they play that opening riff, they can kind of go with it. And even when there are versions that are not going to make our overall list but are still high quality versions, it's because they just feel something when they're playing this song. So I found that interesting that this is a rare, rare error for Fish to play the 30 minute jam and also to find the kind of musical space that they did here in this. It's really stunning stuff.

C (37:03)

Yeah, I guess. I don't know why I thought it would be even lower number because it is such a rare thing for them to take a song this deep. And it is pretty cool. I wonder how many of those songs. I want to dig into that stat and find out how many of those songs are like newer songs because they've been playing so many more longer jams recently. It'd be interesting to look into that. But this is my favorite version of A Wave of Hope. You know, it's interesting. I don't find it as directionless in the beginning, but maybe that's because from 14, 13, 14 minutes on, it's so perfect. The darker, edgier place that they find at that 13, 14 minute mark is so killer. And it has that intensity and that driving feeling. It sounds like a movie soundtrack. And I just kept picturing like this triumphant truck, like driving up the mountain. It just has that kind of sense of just urgency and intensity and that whole last 20 minutes just flows so perfectly and it sounds composed the whole way through. I absolutely love this version. It's. I love that you were there, Brian. It's awesome. Mexico 24.

B (38:14)

Wow. Never forget, never forget, never forget.

A (38:19)

Yeah. I think the notable thing about this version is just that it. What it kind of signifies, which is just this open willingness to kind of see what happens, you know, and that in other eras, like other songs have served that purpose. But it's. It's pretty great that in this era that is a new. It's a new song. You know, we're never. We're never getting a exploratory David Bowie again, but, you know, no, we have. But when you hear Wave of Hope, most likely it's going to jam. So, you know, that's the. That's the pros and cons of that. Straight off decades, you know, it's true.

B (38:53)

It's pretty cool that Trey is still going on podcasts talking about jamming David Bowie. And it's like, when was the last time you jammed David Bowie? What are you talking about?

C (39:01)

So true.

A (39:04)

Just to mess with us.

C (39:06)

He is really, really messing with us.

B (39:07)

It feels like that it's psychological warfare. It's like, do you hear what we're asking for here? I want to give a shout out to Incredible Perp, just because he's Incredible Perp, but also because that little snippet from the IT doc where Paige says what Brian just said about going through X amount of music to get to that bit of music that wouldn't have existed with all that came before. That is what. That's probably my favorite quote from any member of Phish in any interview. Because it just. It explains everything I have ever believed and wanted to believe about this band that, like, you have to push through music sometimes to get to this place you would never expect to get to. And I remember when they shifted into that dream space in the Mexico Wave of Hope, just being like, okay, everything that came before was worth it. And now I can finally relax and just like enjoy. Enjoy this space.

C (40:02)

Oh, my God, Paige is the best.

A (40:05)

All right, we got one more. Who's gonna. Who's gonna bring us home here?

C (40:10)

It's my turn. It's my turn. Yeah. And I'm taking us to this past summer, this year, to a show that had less monster jams but better song selection than some of the shows around it. Despite them playing Petrichor in the first set. But this has an awesome life saving gun. The end of the first set, but the second set opens with sample and then a 25 minute wave of hope. I'm talking about the July 9, 2025 show from Columbus and This jam. I listened to this again yesterday, and it's so good. It's so good. This jam has direction the whole time. It has that low simmer to it in the beginning that I think is really indicative of some of the best Wave of Hope jams. The way that they start and this feeling, that just a compelled kind of bubbling brook feeling. And at 18 minutes, they really start to just pull at the edges of that. And Trey and Mike are echoing each other with these descending riffs. And then the way that it peaks and Trey's kind of sliding down during the peaks, it adds so much intrigue to the peak. And this is, to me, just a really, really clean, perfect Wave of Hope gem. The show also had a slight return to Slow Build Piper, which was cool and almost.

B (41:44)

Yeah, this is so. It's interesting when we look at the amount of Wave of Hopes that we are skipping in 2023, 2024, and early 2025, because I think that we can make a huge argument that the last three years, you know, he had this awakening in summer 22 around this song, but these last three years, this has probably been the most reliable gold standard jam vehicle of the era. I don't know. We've had a lot, but, like, from a new song standpoint, just, like, completely taking over. And I think there were a lot of versions we tossed around. Some felt like more of a centerpiece for that show. But I think as you listen to the last three years of these versions, what you get in this version is kind of that marrying of both sides of a Wave of Hope. And I think that compared to the previous three versions, this one is the most complete throughout, and it feels like the most. From the time that they stop singing Wave of Hope and they move into the jam, they kind of just seem to know where they're going. It's really reflective of where Fish is at right now in 2025. It's clean, like you mentioned, Meg, and that is a huge aspect of what makes this version special. But it also doesn't lose the dynamism and the. You know, the. The desire to explore. There's weird Trey moments within there where he's kind of pushing at the edge of the melody. There's a lot of groove in this. That felt like a big part of fish in 2025. And I just want to give a shout out, you know, they had six days off, five days off. Who knows after that boulder run? And, like, this is how they played. My God, all we had to do was put them in a College basketball gym and you get maybe the best life saving gun ever. At least until Birmingham. One of the best wave of hopes ever and one of the best pipers ever. Like, come on. This is incredible.

A (43:56)

Yeah, the. We can't talk about all the times that Fish has played in Columbus right now because we, we're, we have to wrap it up soon. But this is the first time playing in this, in this arena which opened in 2001, I think, because they'd already. They played Polaris and, and the Vet and Newport before that. And that was kind of it. And so this is like, you know, maybe hopefully this is a new stop for them because it's a big basketball arena that apparently they enjoy. So that's cool.

B (44:24)

How many times has Fish played in Columbus while the Ohio State Buckeyes are the reigning national champion?

A (44:33)

That's a really good question. I would say this is probably the first time because they didn't play there in 2015 or 2003 or anytime. Yeah, yeah, this is it.

B (44:47)

When have they won a title prior to 2003?

A (44:53)

So 78.

C (44:57)

Oh my gosh.

B (44:58)

That was a big gap.

C (44:59)

That's crazy. I didn't realize that's a long time.

A (45:03)

I mean, I'm just saying that like if, you know, if, if they come back next summer, it's not, you know, it's not, not out of the realm that they'll be the defending champs again. So.

B (45:12)

Not out of the realm, not out.

A (45:14)

Of the realm, guys. 19. Sorry, I was wrong. It was 1968 before that.

C (45:18)

Oh, even further back.

A (45:20)

Yeah. Okay, so let's do, let's do our quick, quick shout outs. When in everyone gets one sentence on honorable mentions.

C (45:33)

Okay, I'll go first. That's what they call it going kind of backwards. I have two versions from this year that I absolutely love. I think 6, 21, 25 in New Hampshire. I was kind of campaigning for this. I knew it was kind of a lost cause. But this is just the most sophisticated, warm, perfectly cohesive wave of Hope jam. And it's not really indicative of what the jams usually are like. So I understand the pushback to having this on the list. But effortless and just absolutely gorgeous jam. If you haven't listened to that, I'd spin that. I also really love 420 from Portland this year. Just space funk. Just fun and amazing segue into twist. Really, really fun. And I also think the one that I love because I was there and it's also just a killer version is 7 28, 23 at MSG. What a first set. Opening up with evening song. And this was in slot two. And when this popped off, everybody was like, oh my God. Like, this is. This show is something special. This is a perfect example of like momentum horizontal jamming. They find a chord progression. It's still. It's really effect heavy, but it's still really warm. Massively uplifting peak. Trey has a really crazy, sped up, frantic return to the song that Paige doesn't even back him up on because he's singing so fast. But it just shows how ready to go they were at this MSG run. And it was that. This will always be a cherished moment for me. So those are my three honorable mentions.

A (47:11)

What was the date of the last one? Megan? Sorry.

C (47:13)

7 28, 23.

A (47:15)

23. Okay, I just want to mention one real quick, which is the 12, 28, 22. Also MSG version. I think they get extra points for the segue into its ice, which kind of works, but really cool. That's kind of like builds on what we talked about earlier with 22. There's like a lot of the synths building with Page, with Paige, and then Trey kind of keeps it going. It sounds like Mahavishnu vibes for a minute and then like a big build, very msg, like peak sounding. And then they. They segue pretty well into its ice.

B (47:45)

But.

A (47:45)

Brian, what do you got?

B (47:49)

So I got all honorable mentions in the year of 2023. At some point here in the chat, Evdude called out that 2023 was the year of wave of hope. I think that that's probably right. That was the year that it just kind of was this old reliable. So 41423 from Seattle. This is opening show of the spring tour. Listening back to it, it feels a little entry level jamming in the sense that, yes, it's 21 minutes, yes, there's a couple of sections, but it really builds around a very specific tre riff that feels almost like they are less interested in exploring the unknown and more interested in just connecting around an idea and then building that up to a peak. So very good version, but I don't know if it would necessarily be a top four for me. 728. Like Meg shouted out, that's my show of 2023. And I remember just like kind of being in the same way that I felt when they opened with 2001 on 10, 28, 21. I felt just kind of scared watching the webcast for everyone who was in the building. It just felt like too much energy and too intense. I Was like some something's gonna go wrong or like, how do you. How do you maintain that over the next, like four hours? And somehow they did that show rules.

C (49:15)

Oh, my God. I was on the floor for that show and I was like, what is happening? It was unbelievable.

B (49:21)

Very, very good show. And then 8 hours, 25 minutes and 23 seconds from SPAC. This was the flood relief show that they played. They opened the second set with something that I'm blanking on right now. Hold, please. Really great. Oh, Evolve. This is a great second set. Evolve Wave of Hope into simple fuego into chalk dust torture. This wave of hope. It's very, very good. This is also the show with the munchkin land sand in the first set to commemorate the 84th anniversary of the wizard of Oz being released in US theaters.

C (50:02)

84.

B (50:05)

This version is. I would equate to 414 in the sense that it is a big 20 minute monster jam coming in the second set. The simple that follows is kind of where you get that exploratory kind of wildness to it. But this is still a very, very good version from, I thought, a surprisingly great show. I don't think anybody was really expecting much from this show when it happened. It was tossed on as shows that will play from a flood relief standpoint. Sometimes those shows can be great. Sometimes they can be a little bit of just like we're just playing another fish show. This one was great. And then it allowed them to kind of get their sea legs back for dicks the following week, which was. Which was awesome as well. But this version definitely would encourage you to go back and listen to how this song kind of dominated 2023. I've got great shout out here for the four. 21, 23. First set closer from Hollywood Bowl. Another excellent version doesn't totally kind of falls for me in the category of 420 and 6, 21, 25 in that. Very good. But I think that with what Wave of Hope has established, it needs that extra thing going to. It was more than one sentence, rj. I hope it was.

A (51:19)

Yeah. Hey, you're the one. You're the one with the deadline. You're the one with the deadline. One minute from now. Okay, guys, next week.

B (51:27)

I got 15 minutes. I'm good right now, bro.

A (51:33)

Yeah, we'll just say that it's right now. Okay, Next week, guys. Next week we have a very special guest. We're going to be talking with Rob Mitchum who has made. If we had any kind of record keeping of in the past, we could tell you how many times he's been on the show, but at least six probably. Let's just say this is his seventh appearance on HFPod over the past 12 years. That sound about right?

B (51:58)

But that sounds about right.

C (51:59)

That's amazing.

B (52:02)

Yeah. He came on originally for 42494 from Charlotte back in 2013, 2014. And I remember I had never heard that show. And he was like, he was starting to work through his show by show analysis project. And he was like, I've been looking for when where the turn happened. When did this band go from 30 song set lists with a lot of variety to okay, the shows are going to be built around a jam. And that bathtub gin and that Bowie are kind of those moments for him. So that show's always been very special for me and I can't wait to talk to him. We're going to talk to him about his whole blog he's been working on over the last 10 years, but like really in earnest since 2019. Tracking every fish show from his initial project was start of the winter tour 93 and then it really picked up on its 25th anniversary from fall 94 on. So tons of good questions that we have. Tons of great content he's provided. Can't wait to talk to him about that.

C (53:08)

I'm so excited to have him on. What a contribution to the archive he's making. So excited to chat with him.

A (53:18)

Before next week. I'll try to track down the other episodes that he's been on because I want to talk to him about them because there's one that you guys did, Brian, without me in 2017. I want to say now, maybe you weren't on there, but I feel like you were on with Rob at some point talking about a specific tour. It was. Anyway, we're gonna do that. We're gonna do that. We're gonna find.

B (53:39)

We're gonna find all the jobs. I spent three years of my life listening to Rob's tones in my ears on Friday nights as I edited 36 from the vault episodes. And the dude, he knows his music, he knows his fish, and he knows his way of talking about Fish in a kind of music history type of mindset that really appeals to me. Getting away from like the jams bra into like, hey, what is this band actually doing? What are they actually contributing here?

A (54:12)

Yeah. And he's on a break now from his blog as. As Fish was on a break break 25 years ago, I think he needed a break just like Fish did. So. But he'll be he'll be back.

C (54:21)

A lot of work.

A (54:21)

A lot of work. It's a lot of work. So we're gonna be back with that next week and appreciate everyone voting on their Wave of Hope jams. And I didn't mention this, but it was, there was, it was basically all over the map, so there wasn't really a clear winner. It was like there was, there were votes for almost every version, which I'll ended up kind of making it look like everyone really enjoyed all the versions. So that's.

C (54:45)

Maybe it's like a Wave of Hope jam.

A (54:48)

Exactly. Maybe that's a sad way of concluding the fan vote, but can we submit questions for Rob? Yeah, of course.

B (54:55)

Yeah, dudes. Yeah, send them in. Should we have them send voicemails or send emails?

C (55:01)

They can send me on socials. They can send voicemails. Reach out, send them in.

B (55:06)

We'll pick a few really good ones. Yeah, we would absolutely love that. And maybe, you know, some rapid fire stuff about his 2.0 knowledge. Test him early, see if he, he has any idea about what, what is coming for him in on December 31, 2027. Because I, I, that is what I'm just, I can't wait for.

A (55:26)

Yeah, I mean, imagining September. I mean, December, December what? 31st.

B (55:34)

December 31st, 2027 is the 25th anniversary.

C (55:37)

That's amazing. What's cool. I know, right? He and I had, like, a very similar trajectory and when we stepped away from Fish and when we kind of went, went back into it. So it's, it's really been fun to see his perspective and hear about that, because I can relate very deeply to it.

A (55:55)

All right, we'll see you all next week for Rob Mitchum. And in the meantime, yeah, keep the voicemails coming, keep the reviews coming. We will, we will get to the voicemail at some point soon, but for now we will.

C (56:06)

Yeah.

A (56:07)

Look forward to talking to Rob. And thank you, Megan. Thanks, Brian.

C (56:10)

Thanks, everyone.

A (56:12)

See y' all soon.

B (56:29)

Sam.

A (57:03)

Osiris.