Mt. Rushmore: Carini

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast - Episode: "Mt. Rushmore: Carini"

Release Date: June 2, 2025
Host: Osiris Media
Description: The Helping Friendly Podcast (HFPod) delves into the music and fan experience of Phish, featuring interviews and deep dives into shows and tours. Since 2013, HFPod has prioritized the fan voice in discussions about Phish, continually uncovering new perspectives on the band. During tours, the podcast provides daily show reviews with attendees, praised for its "impeccable analysis, stats, commentary and music."

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Introduction

In the "Mt. Rushmore: Carini" episode, hosts Megan, Brian, and RJ embark on an extensive exploration of Phish’s iconic song "Carini." This episode serves as a pivotal point in the "Mount Rushmore" series, aiming to identify and honor the four most exemplary live renditions of "Carini." The discussion is enriched with listener feedback, detailed analyses of various performances, and spirited debates among the hosts about their personal favorites.

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Listener Feedback and Voicemails

Early in the episode, listener Ben provides critical feedback regarding the selection of "Carini" versions. At [05:22], Ben states:

"I was about to go live to record, and I realized that I was out of seltzer...but I did get some seltzer that day. And I woke up this morning, my dog was freaking out. And I go outside and there's about 8, 10 cases of seltzer outside. I knew it was from you guys. So thanks. Thank you so much."

Brian acknowledges Ben’s points, appreciating the insight:

"Great, great critique. Great call in. There's really nothing I love more in a fish fan conversation than talking about great versions of something and then someone interjects with you didn't even mention."

Ben’s feedback emphasizes the importance of including diverse renditions, such as "Lemon Wheel," which initially weren’t part of the hosts’ selection.

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Curating the "Mount Rushmore" List

The hosts discuss the challenges of curating a definitive list of the top "Carini" performances. Megan poses a crucial question to Brian:

"Was there a criteria when you looked at the jams? Like you're looking at jams?"

Brian explains his subjective yet methodical approach:

"I use the jam charts as an initial starting point without going too deep there... But I try to be really discerning though, because I think you can get into a challenging place with this, where there's a version that you really like that may not speak to the larger kind of importance of a jam vehicle or what a song has meant in Fish history."

He further elaborates on balancing personal biases with the historical significance of each version.

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Exploring Notable "Carini" Versions

The core of the episode centers on dissecting various live renditions of "Carini." Each version is examined for its unique contributions to the song's legacy.

1. Amsterdam 1997 Debut ([27:01] - [28:35])

   • RJ praises the raw intensity and experimental nature of the debut performance:

     "It's so raw and slowed down and then it jams with just this intensity and this power."

2. Hampton 2013 Version ([55:32] - )

   • Megan highlights the version's exploratory and tightly packed structure:

     "It's so sick. It is so exploratory. It's such a huge journey."

3. Dick's 2021 Version ([30:35] - )

   • Brian describes the balance between quiet, introspective segments and aggressive energy:

     "It starts off, it has this big, like, bold stomping onto the stage, energy that leads into the jam."

4. Alpharetta 8:3:18 ([48:26] - )

   • RJ commends the rhythmic synchronization and powerful bass lines:

     "The rhythmic sync that the band is in during the show is just outrageous."

5. Mexico 2:20,22 ([68:23] - )

   • Megan appreciates the seamless blend of textured sounds and dynamic grooves:

     "It's so pretty at the end."

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Hosts' Debate and Personal Preferences

A vibrant debate unfolds among the hosts as they share their personal favorites and grapple with attendance bias—preferring versions from shows they attended personally.

• Brian’s Perspective:

  "This is a rock jam. A very, very, very, very awesome rock jam. That's my only pushback here."

• Megan’s Take:

  "This jam just attendance biases."

• RJ’s Input:

  "I just think it's part of the catalog, you know, but it's an interesting question."

Their differing opinions highlight the subjective nature of music appreciation, especially with a song as versatile as "Carini."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben [05:22]:

  "You should always mention those versions that people suggest that these weren't even on your list initially."

• Megan [07:09]:

  "Sometimes you just want to pick the perfect version of that song that kind of encapsulates exactly what that song is..."

• Brian [07:30]:

  "The paperback edition of Mount Rushmore... put all those footnotes of things we forgot to mention."

• Brian [54:40]:

  "This is the best Phish song ever."

• Megan [69:26]:

  "It's so pretty at the end."

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Final Thoughts and Upcoming Segments

As the episode progresses, the hosts acknowledge the complexity of selecting just four versions but agree on the importance of recognizing "Carini’s" multifaceted nature. They announce upcoming segments, including a summer tour preview and a new episode topic for their auxiliary podcast, "Library Card."

Brian expresses anticipation for future drafts, saying:

"Next week's draft is our summer tour preview. We are going to be drafting shows from New Hampshire, Western Pennsylvania, Texas, Colorado..."

Megan humorously notes her commitment to working on the draft on her birthday:

"I'm gonna spend my birthday working on the draft, and you guys will just show up and do it because it's so good for you."

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Conclusion

The "Mt. Rushmore: Carini" episode offers a comprehensive and passionate exploration of one of Phish's most beloved songs. Through detailed analysis, listener engagement, and spirited host debates, the podcast illuminates the song's enduring appeal and its dynamic role in Phish’s live performances. Whether you're a seasoned fan or a newcomer, this episode provides valuable insights into the artistry and evolution of "Carini."

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Connect with the Helping Friendly Podcast:

• Website: Osiris Media
• Social Media: Follow on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook for updates and community discussions.
• Subscribe: Available on all major podcast platforms.

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Note: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence and key points of the "Mt. Rushmore: Carini" episode of the Helping Friendly Podcast.

Transcript

[Osiris]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Megan]

The Starbucks Summer Berry Refresher is officially back.

[Brian]

Bold notes of raspberry, blueberry and BlackBerry shaken with ice and poured over raspberry flavored pearls.

[Megan]

Try it with lemonade or coconut milk. Available for a limited time. Your Summer Berry Refresher is ready at Starbucks.

[Osiris]

Osiris.

[RJ]

All right, guys, we're live. Most importantly, it's Megan's birthday. Hey, Megan.

[Megan]

Hey, guys.

[Brian]

Happy birthday, Meg.

[Megan]

Thanks, everyone. I got a special delivery today. Can I tell you guys about it?

[RJ]

Yeah, sure.

[Brian]

Please do.

[Megan]

Yeah. So I guess they need a little backstory, our listeners, to understand why this delivery made sense. But a couple weeks ago, we were about to go live to record, and I realized that I was out of seltzer. I realized I had no seltzer. And I told the guys this and explained that I was out of seltzer, and they were horrified that I'd let that happen. Horrified and attempted to get some seltzer to me before the recording of the episode. But RJ has been to my house like 10 times, but apparently doesn't know where I live because he sent them down the street. And so I did not get the joke and I did not get the seltzer before recording, but I did get it later. I had to go bring someone's bell and go into their little alcove and get the seltzer, which I then dropped in the walk home because I was walking my dog. And it was. I don't think I told you guys that part of it was. It was a big thing. But I did get some seltzer that day. And I woke up this morning, my dog was freaking out. And I go outside and there's about 8, 10 cases of seltzer outside. I knew it was from you guys. So thanks. Thank you so much. I'm hydrated for days now, so thanks, guys.

[Brian]

Well, we just want you to, you know, in lieu of your ability to properly shop in advance for what you might need to eat or drink in your house, we want to make sure that you're covered for at least the next two weeks. So eight, eight cases should do that.

[Megan]

I'm guessing we'll see. I'll let you know how long it lasts, but thank you.

[RJ]

I hope so. Yeah, I hope it's. I hope it helps.

[Brian]

Have you gotten any emails this morning?

[Megan]

No, I haven't. Why?

[Brian]

I mean, maybe just check your email, see if there's anything in there really.

[Megan]

Like a hall pass for the draft. What is this for?

[Brian]

You don't need a hall pass for the draft. Everyone votes for you. What are you talking about?

[RJ]

Yep, sure. I could use one, though.

[Megan]

Yeah, I don't know. I haven't gotten any email today. Did you guys send it to the wrong email?

[Brian]

I know for a fact I sent it to the correct.

[RJ]

All right, let's listen. Should we listen to a voicemail while Megan checks her email?

[Brian]

Refresh your email while RJ is playing voicemails.

[Megan]

Okay.

[RJ]

Okay, here we go. Good stuff.

[Ben]

All right, so good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Whatever time you may be listening to. Listening to this. Anyway, complaint, thoughts, reviews. I got just thoughts and complaints today. So first of all, before we talk about our little friend Carini that could. Our little evil friend Carini that could really do anything. And that's sort of the beauty of Karini in that it opens up and could do anything. Although I like it when it stays evil. We gotta go back to 2001 for a minute because I'm a little disappointed in that. You didn't even mention some of the ones that listeners must have been thinking about that weren't on the list originally. Specifically, can we talk lemon wheel. But 2001, that's the best. That's the best. 2001. And it's smooth as butter. It shares a lot in common with the other versions from 1998 that you did talk about. However, it's better. Just listen to it. It's better. It's got better fills from Fish. It's just everything about it kind of locks in step better. And there's something you totally neglected to mention from version and also the one from MSG in December. They both teased cross eyed and painless. Not just a little bit. It's obvious. Like everyone will get it. Everyone will hear it. And it's such an important part of that jam. I just love it. It's like it's a beautiful little opening and it's particularly awesome in the London Wheel version. And yeah, okay, okay, that out of the way. You should always mention those versions that people suggest that these weren't even on your list initially. Now enjoy the talk about Karidi. And I love you guys. So don't take criticism Too hard. Have a wonderful day.

[Brian]

I really appreciate that caller. I think that he brings up a really interesting point about the series that I've been thinking about as we're going through it. We were coming up on our first break in the Mount Rushmore series. We will not have any more until after summer tour following this episode. And it's something I've been thinking about. RJ texted a little bit about it yesterday with regards to an upcoming Mount Rushmore song that and I need to do a better job of this as the curator. There are versions that need to be included in the list that are not just the kind of blow your mind type 2 type of jam. 2001 is a perfect example. And 1998 2001s are a perfect example. The Lemon Wheel is a great call. Side note we need went first. But like, like, how do we not have Lemon Wheel released on soundboard? That the ambient jam, that ghost. My God, that 2001. Like, I think 2001 sounds its best in summer 98. It would get more expansive and groovier in summer and fall 99. But in summer 98, you kind of had that brilliant mix of the island tour sound, Trey's tone. They knew how to play funk and now they're kind of dabbling with ambient. And you really got that perfectly in that Lemon Wheel version. So not. Not taking the criticism too hard. Great, great critique. Great call in. There's really nothing I love more in a fish fan conversation than talking about great versions of something and then someone interjects with you didn't even mention. And then they list two versions and you're like, you know what? You're right, man. I got no argument. But also, you know, my head is only filled with so much information.

[Megan]

Yeah. I find that's actually really hard with this series is to sometimes you just want to pick the perfect version of that song that kind of encapsulates exactly what that song is, not necessarily everything that song can do. And I think that that's really, really hard. And you're always making decisions about that with this. With this series. But I did actually want to ask you, Brian, more about this.

[Brian]

The paperback edition of Mount Rushmore. When we get to go back and reassess and release a paperback copy for all of our fabulous subscribers, that's going to be where we get it right.

[Megan]

We can put in all those footnotes of things we forgot to mention, the teases, the everything. Because I've been getting a lot of these online too. Of like, you didn't talk about this. You didn't talk about this. And I think the show is already fairly long, so we can't talk about everything we want to talk about. But I do appreciate when people reach out. But I did have questions, Brian, about how you curated that list because it's interesting. It's a really possible task. And so I appreciate that people are reaching out, but I also think it's really hard to do. And is there. Was there a criteria when you looked at the jams? Like you're looking at jams? Not always the ones that are kind of highlighted on the jam charts either, like, are these just ones that you feel are important? Or how are you choosing, how are you curating that, like larger list?

[Brian]

I mean, I think with music there's always going to be an element of subjectivity. I think with anything from an art related standpoint and a few demands I've received from unnamed co hosts is to limit the amount of versions that are in there so as to not overwhelm our researchers.

[RJ]

Yeah, that's me. Sorry, guys.

[Megan]

Me too. Me too.

[RJ]

I'm just kidding. I never did it. I was trying to cover.

[Megan]

It was totally me.

[Brian]

So I use the jam charts as an initial starting point without going too deep there. There are limitations. I think that's a nice way to put it. There are question mark versions that you have to kind of read through, read the notes. Part of it is I have kind of an encyclopedic brain regarding Fish. And when I go through the jam chart, plus the overall, you know, version list, how many times a song was played, I know versions that are important, that are essential. I try to be really discerning though, because I think you can get into a challenging place with this, where there's a version that you really like that may not speak to the larger kind of importance of a jam vehicle or what a song has meant in Fish history. I think that what we're about to talk about today with Karini is a perfect example of that. Just because of how great it is and how diverse a lot of the jams tend to be, from evil to funky to blissy to so on and so forth. But yeah, I mean, and then I go back and I just double check through all the versions that are played, all the Jam charted versions. Is there anything I was missing? I think with something like Lemon Wheel, the reason I left it off is while it's a great version, it feels like akin to a lot of different versions from Summer 98. The Alpine Valley version, the Merriweather Post version, Believe there's a version from Houston. And when I was going through that list and kind of thinking, okay, what is the. What are the essential versions that have to be on this list from 1998, I kept coming back to Island Tour, Gorge and MSG. Certainly an argument that I could have included one or two of these kind of 10 to 12 minute version ones that give you what the bigger ones do in a more compact way. But again, I just wanted to. I wanted to make this as, you know, kind of high bar as possible for the song. And so I ultimately left them off.

[Megan]

It's really hard when the years are packed like that. Like, I feel like that's the problem with 2013 for Carini. Say, you know, there's just so many good versions in certain years that you end up having to pick and choose.

[Brian]

Yeah. And I mean, something. It is interesting because something like Carini, it's probably a bit overloaded because I went. As I go through here, there's. There's a lot of versions that are in that very good. Is it the greatest version? Is it kind of the. The top tier? I'm looking specifically at a couple of the 2014 versions that we included in here that I think are very, very good and I think are like strong examples of where Karini was at that period in time. But maybe in hindsight are the. The greatest versions of the song. So I don't know. It's. It's. I'll be doing some. Some reviewing of the latter half of the year and kind of what we are presenting as the large list for fans and for us from what we choose from. But, you know, it's there, there's no, there's no perfection in this industry.

[Megan]

Well, don't feel like you have to include every version because I do appreciate the curated list greatly.

[RJ]

So while we were getting that, that email and the. Or the voicemail and the assorted discussion. Megan, did you get an email? We're all dying to know.

[Brian]

Everyone's dying to know.

[Megan]

I didn't get.

[Brian]

I got confirmation of said email.

[Megan]

What?

[RJ]

Brian sent you an email, but you didn't get it. This is crazy.

[Brian]

What a crazy spam folder.

[Megan]

Okay, from you.

[RJ]

Let's listen to one more voicemail and see if. See if Meg's Internet connection, you know, comes back.

[Brian]

Here.

[RJ]

Let's. But for real. Okay. For those of you commuting to work, we will get into Carini right after this voicemail. All right? Just trust me. It's going to happen. It's really going to happen.

[G]

Hi, this is Ben in dc. So I listen to all of the new HF POD episodes when they come out, but I've been listening to the Library Card episodes only when it's about books that I've read. So I recently read James. So then I went back and listened to the Library Card episode about James from a couple months ago, and overall, it was great. I appreciated all of your insights about the book, but I thought there was one missed opportunity. One thing that as Fish podcasters who are now literature podcasters, that I felt that you were uniquely situated to address, and that is the fact that this book contains the phrase Runaway Jim. So obviously the main character is named Jim, and he is referred to many times as a runaway, but there is one place where. Where they refer to him as the Runaway Jim. So I was waiting to see what you guys were going to say about that. So I'm still interested in any thoughts that you may have on connections between the Fish song Runaway Jim and the book James. I don't think the lyrics are really related at all, but maybe musically the way that. That. That the song has has been a versatile jam vehicle. So I'm interested in any of your thoughts on that. Thank you.

[RJ]

So that's a plug for our other podcast, which is called Library Card. We're doing an episode right after this which will be out. If you're listening to this, you can search Library Card and you'll hear our new episode probably by the time you hear this about a book called Long Island Compromise. But we've talked about lots of books and stories and now movies. And so if anyone wants to comment on personal Everett's fandom, now is the time.

[Megan]

I can't believe we let that slip by. We really messed that up.

[Brian]

We did. I think we tried to keep the fish fanniness aspect of ourselves at bay in Library Card. We're appealing to a slightly different audience, but I do appreciate the crossover there. You know, just as I'm thinking about it, the speed and pace with which I read through James is kind of reminiscent to the tempo of the song Runaway Jam and the exploratory Jam. You know, thinking specifically of the 1695 version kind of makes me think of the vaudeville section of the book James. Maybe the evil conclusion of the book James. Celebratory but dark conclusion to the book James. I will just say quickly, I drove across the Mississippi river twice in the last week, and my God, what an amazing thing that we have. Just a gigantic effing river that just goes north to south through the center of the country down takes so much commerce. People live on it. People hang out next to. I mean, there's just. There's so much that happens as a result of it. And it's all in that book as well. So that's all I got to say about that.

[RJ]

Thank you, Brian.

[Megan]

I also think the ending scene of that book could be underscored by, like, a monster Carini.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah. It's true.

[Brian]

It's good.

[RJ]

One of the ones. Maybe one of the ones I'm going to pick today, but we'll see.

[Megan]

I did, I did. It's too generous. You guys are so nice.

[Brian]

No such thing is too generous. Come on.

[RJ]

We are so nice, though.

[Brian]

We are so nice. Yeah, you're right.

[Megan]

These guys just got me a gift card to my favorite movie theater. How'd you know this is the one I love.

[Brian]

Just know a little bit about you. It's all right.

[Megan]

My favorite old school movie theater. It's not fancy. The seats don't recline. It's not, you know, there's nobody coming and taking your order and bringing you food in the middle of it. It's like an old school crappy theater with really amazing posters that are from, like the 70s in the stairways up to the theaters. And I love it. So thank you. I'm going to go and watch lots of movies there, thanks to you guys.

[Brian]

I like the subtle shade there at Alamo drafthouse, which is located as well in your area.

[Megan]

And I love it. I go there, but it's like, you know, going to that movie theater is expensive. And it's also, I don't know, there's something a little bit less charming about it.

[Brian]

I love the one I have near me just because they. They show old movies. But I find the experience of consistently ordering and being asked for food in the middle of a movie to be a bit frustrating. I'm just like, can we make like, I. I appreciate what you guys are doing. Stop running in front of me. Like, I. I just want popcorn and I want a Barks root beer or a cherry coke, Whatever you guys have. Maybe I'll order a milkshake because they're. Milkshake.

[Megan]

Cherry coke. Yum. That's some Midwest shit right there. That is old school.

[Brian]

But, yeah, I just. I kind of want to just sit down and watch the movie, you know, that's it.

[Megan]

Yeah. And if you got to go get something from the movie, you know, you need more food. That's like, up to you. You have to decide, like, am I going to miss a minute of the movie. Like that's kind of the fun of it.

[Brian]

No, that's not. That's not happening. That's why Europe once again is preeminent, because every single movie, regardless of the length, has a 15 minute intermission. So you can go outside, rip a heater, grab some more popcorn, and come back.

[RJ]

All right, Megan, Happy birthday. That's the end of the surprises for today.

[Megan]

As far as you.

[RJ]

As far as you know.

[Brian]

As far as you know.

[RJ]

Yeah. Okay, so let's get into Karini. We have. Man, this is a tough one. I'm picking today. And it's gonna be, it's gonna be. There's gonna be a lot of differences on our list, I think today, because I guess my first point just thought and see what you guys think. I mean, the quality of jams versus some of the other songs that we've talked about. Like I, I rate these as I go through them and I think. I don't think I had anything below a 6.5 out of 10 on, on these jams. So, like everything was a 6.1 was 6.5 and the rest were 7 or above, like 7 to 9. So it's like you're really picking within a. An amazing range of awesome gems. So that's the first thing is did you guys find this, like, do you agree with that in terms of the kind of higher overall quality of jams to choose from?

[Brian]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like the last three that we've done, disease 2001 and now Carini, have all been hard in different ways. Disease was this, you know, one of the preeminent jam vehicles. I felt a ton of pressure finding the right for when there were a lot of really great ones, but also some ones I felt like could just be in the relegation section 2001, there weren't as many and a lot of them jammed in a similar way. So really finding those subtle differences was, was, was kind of challenging. This though, like, Karini is so interesting. Like, has any song had the evolution Karini's had? It was a joke song that appeared twice in two of the best Fish shows ever across a four month period in time. And then it kind of came back as a seven or eight minute long rock song that always felt like a throwback to 123097 or the island tour. Had some good versions in late 1.0, some weird short versions in 2.0 kind of appeared in early 3.0, but then by fall 2010, suddenly was one of the best examples of the band allowing themselves to Be creative. Step out into the unknown. And by the mid-2010s, it was one of the most reliable jam vehicles. And it stayed there ever since. And it feels like every version is slightly different from the past. It doesn't really follow a formula. Like, once Carini ends, Trey hits the major key, they go off in a major key. If Trey feels funky, they go off into a funk jam. Like, there's so many different ways that they can get out of this song and into unknown terrain that you have all these versions that you're just like, even within two months of each other. They don't sound anything like each other.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's also like, you go ahead.

[RJ]

I just think it's like so funny that this, like, weird, demented song became one of the, like, the biggest uplifting jam vehicles in the catalog. It's just fucking crazy, that's all.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's why it's like so perfect. And I think it is like one of those songs like Tweezer, where there are very few songs when you hear those opening notes that. That ignite a crowd that way, you know, this song just sets a match under the place and it's so fun and cool to think of kind of how it started.

[Brian]

Yeah, I mean, I've seen two versions in particular that open shows. One after an extended rain delay in 2022. And it kind of felt like everyone had been hanging out in the venue. Lightning, crazy rain. It like cooled down like crazy and they come out and they play Carini. It was like 10 o' clock at night when they started and the place lost its mind. And then a later, they did the exact same thing on the first show at Dick's 2023. And it was the same sort of like just pent up, aggressive energy that was unleashed.

[Megan]

Yeah, that's the cool thing about this song too, is that the song itself is so muscular and so strong. I love it. And I just feel like it has such a huge energy, monster vibe and such a big time ability to go the distance in the jam now that anytime you hear it, you just know you might be in for something just absolutely huge. And I totally agree, rj. The jams are so dynamic. And like you were saying, Brian, I think the way that it moves between sections in these jams, like they can often get so much done so quickly. You can have like a 11 minute, 14 minute, 18 minute Carini jam that just goes all over the place and gets so much done. And I often feel like they have a mind of their own and it feels to me, my favorite Carini jams always feel like something is pulling the band along. It's not like the band making the jam. It's something this undercurrent that's like pulling them underneath it.

[Brian]

It's.

[Megan]

It's just a continuation of the power in the song and it's just awesome. This is really fun to listen to, all these versions.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah, it's really, it's. It's. It's a pretty good one. So I can. Can we just get into it?

[Megan]

Yeah, I think Brian kind of did my, you know, opening section, but it's totally cool. It's fine.

[Brian]

It's taking things from me on your birthday. I apologize.

[Megan]

It's totally fine. I only wrote up 25 little notes about it, but.

[RJ]

Well, say them then.

[Brian]

Do it. Dive in.

[RJ]

Why don't you sing them for us?

[Megan]

I'm definitely not going to sing them. Although RJ did get to hear me sing a little Janis Joplin last week. But I'm not going to sing for you today. No, I mean, I think Brian said it perfectly. You know, this heady legacy that this song has is just so cool. It's filled with fish lore and it's a full band composition, which is fun and we don't talk too many about those. And it did emerge in the midst of a really important time for the band, obviously in this important Tour in Winter 97, which kind of just fell off our list because that year was so stacked with amazing tours. But Carini debuts on February 17, 1997, very famously at the Paradiso in Amsterdam. And talk about a debut that deserves to be on the jam chart. Here we go. It's so raw and slowed down and then it jams with just this intensity and this power. So killer. And what's so fun is that the band immediately had like weird feelings about it. They used it, or I guess positive feelings about it. They used it as pre show music at a few shows on that European tour. And then it continued to be the second set jam vehicle on this tour. And I remember hearing those tapes and being really excited about this song and. And then it was just nowhere. It wasn't on summer tour, it wasn't on fall tour, it wasn't anywhere. Like it wasn't either in the European or the US summer tours. And then they bring it back in this incredible way in 123097 with Pete Carini coming out on stage in this like, famous show and this incredible encore, like that is just. It's just such a moment of them Understanding that they had something, and for whatever reason, it was shelved, and then bringing it back in. Such a historical moment. So incredible. And then obviously, you have the really famous island tour version when there's a person coming on stage and Fishman says, karini is going to get you, and then they play the song later. But after that, then, like you said, Brian, it becomes like this first set, kind of like energy injection in shows throughout the rest of its time until 3.0, when it really becomes like this huge jam vehicle. It's been played now 149 times and 43 times in the jam charts, so that's like a 30% chance, which is really good. It's been played super consistently in the modern era. After early 3.0, the gap is usually under 14, but the show gap has never gotten above 10. In 4.0, this is. This is getting played a lot.

[RJ]

Wow.

[Brian]

Yeah. And if you look at the. Every time played, there are two times where it opens a second set prior to 6, 20, 2010, and then from there, pretty much every version is opening a second set in, like, it just became this song that when they came out, when the lights fell down, it was almost, you know, akin to down disease in that you just kind of knew you were getting those chords to kick off the set.

[RJ]

So. Okay, we're just gonna. We're gonna go. We're gonna get. We're just gonna go do it. You guys ready? He's ready to go. Okay. Okay. So I'm not gonna do the thing that you guys both do better, which is like, setting the stage in some way. Well, I'm just gonna say the thing, and then we'll do it. For what? What do you want to say, Megan?

[Megan]

No, I was just gonna say we all get to do it how we want, rj. We all do this how we want.

[RJ]

I know there's you guys all.

[Brian]

Every three shows, listeners get their favorite host to pick their version of Karini. It depends on who their favorite host is, but, you know, we all do it our own way.

[RJ]

Know for sure. For sure. Okay, so for the first. The. For the first one, it had that first one has to be the first one, because it is. I mean, it. It's kind of amazing that, like, this song is exactly exemplified in what it's supposed to be in its first appearance ever. You know, it's totally. It's intense. It's weird. Like, Amsterdam is just so perfect. I remember getting these tapes, and it just. You know, it was a new era. But Paige's piano over the verses in the intro and. And the vocals over the beginning of the jam. And then there's this like. It's just so spooky and weird and demented and up. And then there's this like almost summer 95 style jam in like the middle, you know, where it's just like. It's just kind of madness but within the structure of. Of the song. And then Trey gets on like the wah pedal and starts that like trilling, you know, with the wah. And then there's that section with like the space weirdness with the start stop. I mean it's just like get the out of here. It doesn't. And then. But. But it's not just that. And then there's this like blissful ending that's almost like the man who Stepped into Yesterday or something for a second there. But it's like a truly face melting jam. And I don't use that term mildly because the term's thrown around a lot, but this one truly does it. I listened to it again yesterday. I was like, holy shit. It's fucking crazy. It's awesome. That's. That's it. That's the first one.

[Megan]

Yeah, I was on the list. Has to be on there. This is just such a powerhouse debut with a section that goes as hard as humanly possible, but then it's followed by a section that is as delicate as that part is hard. It's. It's. It's everything. It's so cool. It's. It's so raw and yeah, you said it. It's so amazing that they found this space with it right away the first time. Absolutely incredible.

[Brian]

Yeah. This has to be on the list. This is on my list. It's interesting because you mentioned the summer 95 kind of feel of part of it. This jam really feels like a bridge between two eras where they were kind of reaching back to that abstract weirdness. Anything goes of summer 95 with what was coming with funk and groove. And you kind of hear it all mashed into one here in a really unique way. It also is interesting because for the next 13 years this is going to be a pretty isolating version of Carini. There's not a lot of other. There's not a lot of other type 2 Carinis to come in the next half dozen years or next dozen years. But there's also not a lot of versions that are going to be this exploratory and this kind of wide ranging. And I would kind of argue in a way that you almost don't get with any other song as it evolves. This sounds more like modern fish than it does fish from the 90s. Like, it's so diverse. There's so many different elements to it in a. In a really fascinating way. Can I ask a really good. A question that came up in the chat not to. Not to step us back to the pre Rushmore. For the. For those commuting.

[RJ]

Whatever you want to do.

[Brian]

Do a little bit of a pause. There's a really interesting question here from one of our listeners. Blue Tui.

[RJ]

That's a hard one.

[Brian]

That's a hard one. Trying to figure it out.

[RJ]

It's always a hard one. Gotta be honest. But I. I like. I like it.

[Brian]

Ten o' clock in the morning. I just came back from vacation. I'm trying this. Right. Fun thought exercise. Does Carini ever become a regularly played song without the 4. 3. 98 stage crasher? I love these kind of questions because they're unanswerable, but they're also, you know, send you down an interesting rabbit hole because there is an argument to be made that those Winner 97 versions are the versions. And then they give you the shock. One timer on 12:30.97. Because anything goes at that show and then it never happens again. Just kind of forgotten the memory. Like Rockawilliam almost. Do you guys think that without that we get Carini in the state that it's in today?

[Megan]

I tend to think because of how inspiring it's been to the band, that it would eventually find its way back. Because also this band likes inside jokes. But it definitely brought it back that night.

[RJ]

Yeah. Yeah. As someone who just recently played the Stage Crasher at a show a couple weeks ago, I will say that it's. It's awesome. But, yeah, I think it. I think it. I think it continues.

[Brian]

Okay.

[RJ]

I think it's like. I think it's part of the catalog, you know, but it's an interesting question. I agree. I think it's.

[Brian]

I think that Stage Crasher changed Fish history. There is no Carini and The entirety of 3.0. 4.0 is muddled down. How about that?

[RJ]

Are you serious?

[Megan]

I mean. I mean, Frenchie definitely influenced Karini and. And his experience.

[Brian]

Yeah, I guess you're right. The Naked guys throughout the late 90s also influenced Karini. There were a couple naked stage crashers that they referred to throughout the late 90s. And then it happened again with Frenchie. RIP.

[RJ]

Yeah. All right, well. Well, on that note. So see, where do we go next? Okay, there's gonna be a. This is gonna be very controversial. Are you guys ready?

[Brian]

I'm very ready, yeah.

[Megan]

So ready.

[RJ]

I mean, I'm skipping years. I'm skipping so. Or slow years? Both. No, it's the new. It's the new one. The new song.

[Megan]

No, it's always slow, guys.

[Brian]

It's always slow. That's the only proper answer. Rick, if you're listening, can we just. Can we just get so out of there, please? My God.

[RJ]

Let's just take the two pieces that are kind of don't work together and just make it a new song. That's great.

[Megan]

Exactly. What are you thinking?

[Brian]

Okay.

[Megan]

Continue to not understand that they have the best song ever. Why are you with it? I don't understand.

[RJ]

All right. This is gonna be hard. You guys ready?

[Brian]

Still ready.

[RJ]

Okay. We are going to the. The greatest arena on Earth. The greatest rock arena on earth. What do they call it? The world's greatest arena.

[Brian]

I think that's what that.

[RJ]

Yeah, we're going. We're going there. I just want to say, as a preamble to this, that I. I did think that there's a. There's a version from earlier this year that I think is similar, but does not quite do the same thing as this one. So we're going to 1230, 2012 at Ms. Wow.

[Megan]

Amazing.

[RJ]

So here's my justification. This is the early. This is the early 3.0 kind of representation here. The. The 830 12, or 83112 is. You know, it's. That. It's a great, great version. Yeah, great. This has, like. It's a little bit slower. The thing that I like about this and why. Why I think it deserves to be here is that it's really dark and kind of, like, off the. Off the path right before this of, like, going into the upbeat groove. And it just. It stays in this dark and brooding place with Mike, like, really driving it. Trey is screaming in the middle of it. And, like, right after that, Paige comes in on the piano. And then, like, there's this part where it's, like, kind of quiet, and Fishman just randomly keeps hitting the bass drum and then. But it keeps everything going. It's like Trey pushes his. Using these effects to, like, push out these notes and stretching them with these effects, making it, like, really kind of spooky intense toward the end, but it all still has a rhythm. And I think it's just a really unique version that it's really compelling. And it doesn't. It doesn't go in that, like, blissful, you know, space, but it. But it's a really unique listen and I think a really great jam.

[Megan]

Amazing jam. I posted about this this week because this is one of those jams that has a mind of its own. It is monster out of the gate. It's unapologetically dark and scary the entire time. Totally compelling. It just feels like it's being played, like, onto the band. They're not playing it. It just. It's. I think it's incredible. It was not on my list, but it was really, really close. Definitely an honorable mentions.

[Brian]

I left this off my list partially because of attendance bias. I didn't want to have that impact my list too much. Which is funny because I texted you guys this morning, if you see a good jam, you see a good jam.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

But I will say I was. I think the best seats I've ever had at MSG were at this show. I was page side, just a little bit, like, on an angle. Like, not right on him. Like, just so I. So I had this, like, I could almost, like, see into his rig and those seats. You can watch the band talk to each other. It almost feels like you're in rehearsal. And it was just in a great section that when Fishman's doing the bass drum and they're getting into that Pink Floyd, Animals esque groove. Yeah, you. You can actually feel the MSG floor rise and fall. It's just all I see are red lights and Trey yelling. And in my head I'm like, finally you're doing it. Finally.

[RJ]

You're weird.

[Brian]

Oh, my God. It's the best.

[RJ]

Well. Well, that's what. That's what we got so far. So, you know, you don't like it. Send me your hate mail. It's fine. We'll deal with it. We will deal with it. All right. Should we. Maybe we'll do. Maybe we'll do. Maybe we'll just take a break now. It seems like that's the pattern. Okay, let's do that. Okay, we're back. Still Meg's birthday. We're still talking about Karini. Guys, we're at the halfway point of these. These four. Is there any. Do you have any observations? Does anyone want to, like, you know, give a soliloquy? Or should I just, like, keep on. Should we keep on going?

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[RJ]

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[Brian]

I'm really trying to debate if I want to ask a sports related question that will turn a lot of people against me.

[RJ]

It's impossible, friend. It's impossible to turn against. Well you.

[Brian]

You called it the world's greatest arena MSG and I want to, I want to know is it for Pacers fans like what are we doing here?

[Megan]

Yeah, that one.

[Brian]

It's too get that one soon. My son is. Is practicing in the street on our basketball hoop. Just endless Halliburton shots that where he drives in the lane, comes out and shoots it bounce it. He's trying to get the bounce perfectly but he's. He's got the choke sign down. It's great.

[RJ]

Oh wow. I gotta say, I gotta say just sorry. We can go. We don't have to do sports after this. But that. That step back three that Halliburton has is so outrageous and annoying. Like, if you're. If you don't like. If you don't like them, like, that's the worst possible thing that can happen. You're like, you're playing the best. This is what happens. Our friend Jeremy, who calls into the podcast, he's probably listening to this. He does it sometimes. To me, it's really annoying. It's almost impossible to defend when someone takes four steps forward, takes four steps back, and shoots like there's nothing you can do. And Halliburton has done that I don't know how many times recently, but fucking wild.

[Brian]

Look, I'm a Chicago Bulls fan. I'm convinced that Milwaukee and Indianapolis are not real cities, but, like, their basketball teams are way better than anything I currently root for. I can't hate on anything. The dude is. Is. Is magic. And I'm so here for. I'm stoked for the Flyover country finals. At the end of our sports segment, we can go back to the podcast.

[RJ]

Meg has anything to add? Yeah.

[Brian]

Oh, please, please say something more I.

[Megan]

Want to say about sports because I watch some of these games. You know, they're kind of unavoidable. And there's a lot of, like, kids at my school that are really into it. And as a New Yorker, I felt like I had to, like, get engaged and. And it was really fun because Cam, you guys know Cam, he made a really funny video about what it's like for a jam band fan to watch these sports games and, like, their comments on it. It was pretty funny. And I totally agreed with him. And the thing that I agreed with most was that the rail riders at these sports games are a lot better, looking a lot hotter, and really enjoyable. And I was just here for every Spike Lee and Timmy C outfit that they brought on the court because they were bringing some looks. It was really fun.

[Brian]

Yeah. Timothy just continues to have a year, and I'm here for it. I want him to get his, like, I need him to get the award that, like, brings the full Timmy see out of him. I think it's going to potentially happen with the new Safdie Brothers movie. Like, we're just. We're continuing on with Timmy. It's. Let's. Let's do it.

[Megan]

He's just wearing those, like, timbers and, like, these crazy outfits and he's got, like, his, like, super hot girlfriend and he's looking kind of like, ratty and New Yorker y and I just am, like, here for it. Let's go. It's awesome.

[RJ]

Yeah. I mean, apparently, he's from New York. Is that true?

[Megan]

He is, yeah. Yeah. He went to LaGuardia. He's from here. He grew up here.

[RJ]

All right, and then we'll allow it. Okay, we're going. Were you guys ready?

[Brian]

I just love the guy. Guy moves to Philadelphia, becomes die hard Philadelphia fans and starts questioning whether or not a New York fan is a New York fan.

[Megan]

He grew up there. It's legit.

[RJ]

I'm. I mean, I've been here for five and a half years. What do you want me to do?

[Brian]

What do you want me to do, Huh?

[RJ]

I thought he was French. I thought he was French until, like, two days ago.

[Brian]

He does speak French.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Brian]

He spent time in France. You're right.

[RJ]

He's also. I think he's a dual citizen, let's be honest. But he's a French French guy. Come on.

[Brian]

There's no French people in. What are you talking about? Victor Wembanyama is French. What are we talking about here? There's no French people.

[RJ]

We kicked him out.

[Brian]

We bought Louisiana. We kicked them out. Get out of here.

[RJ]

All right, so the next version here, we are gonna go. We're gonna. This is gonna be. This is gonna be controversial, but, you know, but that's what we're. That's what we're here for. We are. We are going in the future, and we're going to a place that has. That has maybe more infamy for Amazing Kill Devil Falls jams than Carini Gems. Brian, do you know where we're going?

[Brian]

I do. I do. I know exactly where we're going.

[RJ]

We're going to.

[Brian]

Wow.

[RJ]

Yeah. This is going to cause some trouble. We're skipping many years. We're going in. We're going forward six years from the last. The last entry. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to 8, 3, 18, Alpharetta. Yeah. Now this, I'm gonna. I mean, I feel zero. You know, I have zero hesitation about anything related to this project or this. This choice or this podcast. But I will tell you that this jam is amazing. And I think part of. Part of the reason that, you know, listen to all 25 of these or whatever a couple times, I think the reason that this one lasted through the tournament. Is that it? That's good. Yeah. Alert. Sorry, guys. Language. Okay, so there is this part that's in the middle that is like this lush and patient and beautiful space with Paige on the synths and Trey playing so delicately but intentionally. And this is the definition of hose, you know, and we, we can, you know, we can. We're going to talk about the jam charts with the jam chart people. Maybe in July. That's going to happen. So we can talk about the use of that word and, you know, we can have a conversation. But that on its. On its own would be fine for like a great, beautiful jam. Not like a build up to a huge peak, but like really creating this, this patient, beautiful soundscape. But then they get into this space funk groove. There's a 20 minute jam. There's a lot going on, the space funk groove. And Paige comes in on the synths toward the end and just like builds it to this like crazy alien landing darkness that winds down and kind of dissipates into all these loops that Trey's doing and Paige on the organ. And I think the combination of these different parts of this jam just make it very unique and very notable. And so that's why this is number three for me.

[Megan]

Yeah, this was really close. It's off my list. But I did an AB test with this and another jam twice yesterday, so it was. It was tough. This is an incredible journey.

[Brian]

Yeah, this landed in my honorable mentions. This is one of my favorite jams from summer 18. That 8318 show is just phenomenal. They did it as a dinner, a movie. If you haven't listened to it in some time, I can't recommend it enough. Huge Ghost in set one, Big Tweezer. It's a kickoff Set two. And then this carini stuck middle. In the middle of the set. It was. It was really like this jam had, well, three things. The Chest Fever segment that is unbelievable is in line with what RJ was talking about. That really melodic chordal kind of build that they were doing. Also, this jam is the middle of the second set, which was kind of an unheard of thing that they. At that point in time, you would get a big jam to kick off a set. So from time to time, but you typically didn't get one just kind of stuck in the middle of a set. Really kind of opened up what they could do towards the end of the sets. But also this jam is the perhaps preeminent example during the era of post peak jamming, where they would peak something and then they wouldn't just fade into a new song. They would see what's on the other side. And on the other side are weird grooves, kind of sonic messing around with effects and stuff and kind of just like this playful approach that felt like historic fish. We featured this in an episode of beyond the pond in summer 18. And we played only Outcast as examples of music that you should listen to if you enjoy this jam because it has that just like dirty down home, like Atlanta hip hop just feel to it. It's awesome stuff. It's not on my list, but it's awesome stuff. Just fell into My Honorable Men.

[RJ]

Well, guys, have to say this is hard. This is hard. We're really, really, really blowing it up today.

[Brian]

You're just showing the like, because I, I, it's going to be interesting when we get into what our lists are, the diversity of this song and what it is capable of to so many different listeners. It's, it's. I, I don't think you're, you're going wrong at all. It's just different choices than what I made.

[RJ]

I have four, I have four versions that are like right off of the, the list here. So I had eight that I thought were finalists for the, for the final four. So we could, we should talk about those and see what you guys think. Maybe some of those are on your list, but maybe it's some of the other ones that I didn't even have in my, in my top eight. Who knows? We'll never know.

[Megan]

So exciting. Can't wait to find out.

[RJ]

Okay, now this, by the way, I have attendance bias for like, like, maybe eight or nine of these versions because I was at so many of them. So it's not real to have attendance bias for, for some of these, but it sort of is the last one. I did not expect to end up here. I expected to end up somewhere else. But isn't that how life works, guys? Don't you often end up in places you don't expect to?

[Brian]

The road less taken sometimes leads, you know, to where you, where you were going all along. Or sometimes it just takes you in a different path.

[RJ]

You never know, you know, you never know. You never know. But, but I'm, I'm. This is an attendance bias pick. But, but I, Again, you know, I've been in, I've been to a lot of these shows. Nothing I can do about it.

[Brian]

Guy goes to a lot of Fish shows.

[RJ]

We're going Fish. It's not your fault then. Yeah, exactly.

[Brian]

Into a lot of great Phillies games, too. You know, I have.

[RJ]

And I'll beat him more. But you know what? You know what's great about this pick, guys? Do you know what's great about it? But what's great about it is that I only have to go about two miles from my house for this Version I only have to go down the street.

[Megan]

Wow.

[RJ]

For this last version. And so Brian's so pissed. So great.

[Brian]

Omega. Interesting. Great. Interesting.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah, we're going there. We're going 7, 7, 26, 23. And I'll tell you why. Yeah, I'll tell you why this is. I mean, okay, first of all, this. This version is awesome. And I was there and I. And I kind of needed to go back to it a few times, and it kept rising through the ranks. It kept pushing its way forward. And I. And I think there's two reasons. First of all, just structurally, this is a double peak jam, which is, you know, which is something at the very beginning, they get into this, like, upbeat groove. It's kind of that, like, emotional ish, you know, push from Trey, pushing this upward. And there's this like, glorious peak, like halfway through, which was awesome in person, but. But it holds up on the recording. And then like kind of quickly downshifts into this darker blues jam. The Fish Nuts, but jam chart describes it as, like, chunky, which I think is interesting. It's a very rhythmic groove that just doesn't stop. And then it builds to this second peak, which is just up tempo and rocking. And it's just a. It's just a great jam. And I think, you know, well, we can talk about what fell off the list, but to me, this is like the. I had a, you know, 1.0. I had. I had 2. 3.0 and a 4.0, which I think is the right representation time wise. But that's the last. That's the last one. So I'd like to hear what you guys think about this jam.

[Megan]

Wow. Yeah. I was also at this show, just saying. And it was my first time at the man, it was a really great night. Awesome show. Awesome Carini. I think I almost got left on the mean streets of Philadelphia by someone who's on screen right now when they decided to not wait for me after just texting with me like 15 minutes before. But luckily I saw the bus and was able to count on the door.

[RJ]

As it was from this Karini. It was because of this Karini.

[Megan]

Yeah, exactly. No, this jam's amazing. It's incredible. Glorious. I listened to it again this morning. It's on my honorable mentions, but it did not make my list. My Rushmore.

[Brian]

This is an excellent, excellent version of Carini. I don't think that they peaked a jam. Just looking through my 2023 fish jam list, I don't think that they peaked a jam as well. As they peaked this Carini in 2023. It was aggressive. It was whole band. It was inspired. That said, I'm looking at this. I have this as my number 16, favorite jam of 2023, below another Carini. Now, here's the problem. Okay, here's the problem.

[RJ]

Let's hear it.

[Brian]

The. The other Carini I have attendance bias for. So who is right? Who is wrong here? I don't know.

[Megan]

This jam just attendance biases.

[Brian]

This jam just fell off of my honorable mentions. I think it's phenomenal. I think my biggest pushback as I get into my list at some point here will be. I don't think it's. I don't think it represents the diversity that Carini plays with. I think it does one thing incredibly well. And besides that, it's missing that, like, key change adventurousness that I hear in other versions. So I don't think you did anything wrong, but I am a little bit disappointed.

[Megan]

That's Brian's favorite Mount Rushmore sentence. I don't think he did anything wrong.

[RJ]

Yeah, but I'm not. I mean, like I said, you know, I am not worried about it. I think this jam. Why would I think this jam does do what you describe? It does change. It does change. It changes three times within. Within the course of the jam. I'm just saying.

[Brian]

Yeah, it's. We're at such a high. Like, Karini is such a high level here. This is an excellent version. Do not get me wrong. My rationale for dropping it below my honorable mentions. It's. It's a. It's a. It's a rock jam. A very, very, very, very, very awesome rock jam. That's my only pushback here. But again, as we get into my list, I've got some attendance bias here. So we'll.

[RJ]

Let's.

[Brian]

Let's get into that.

[RJ]

Let's get into it. I want you to tell us that list, Brian.

[Megan]

Yeah, you go first. Brian.

[Brian]

You want me to go first? Okay, I'll go first. So my first version is right in line with RJ 2017 97. Maybe this is a future draft or a future episode. I don't know. Best debuts. I don't know. Maybe one of the best, if not the best debut. Oh, it's the best time.

[RJ]

It's the best by far. There's no. I don't think there's even. Is there even a. I mean, I'm.

[Brian]

Trying to wrap my head around it, and I can't think of anything off.

[RJ]

Someone on Blue sky said, like.

[Brian]

Because even, like, Ghost had like two versions before the 7197 version that were like. Like shorter, a little bit more compact maybe. No, even birds of a feather. The first version was pretty straightforward. I don't know. We'd have to think really, really hard.

[Megan]

And I'm not only debut on Rushmore. That's pretty wild.

[Brian]

Yeah, probably will be. That's a good call. Yeah. And I think it fully deserves to be there. Listening back to it, like, I. I checked like the time stamp at like 13 minutes, and I was like. I thought there was more in here. Like, you know, it like felt like it was like resolving. And then I was like, oh, wait, there's like 10 more minutes left. And then it just like went from there. And I was like, oh, yes, I totally forgot this amazing section that comes towards the end. Just awesome, awesome stuff. What's going through your mind is a good call, though. That first version was with Billy. The second version is really where it's at, at Monda Green. This is an interesting question. We're going to have to resolve this in a future episode or draft. Megan's already stressed all my second version. I jumped ahead. I really considered a couple 2012 versions. Six seven is amazing. Dicks, as you mentioned the MSG version, those are all great, great versions. 2013 had outstanding versions. 7, 6, 1018, 1025. But I ultimately landed on 1031. This is in the third set of Halloween. Coming out of the wingsuit set, they play Ghost, a really good version of Ghost in then Carini. And this carini is near 20 minutes. It really exemplifies something I love about the 2013 sound, where there's almost no effects coming out of Trey's amplifier. It is so clean, so diverse, so many chords are used, so much exploration, all just with, like, very straightforward sounds. It's not as weird as later versions, but it really, for me, set the template for what Carini was going to become. It wasn't just a hint of a jam. It wasn't just a shock jam. It was now like a fully formed jam vehicle that could do a multitude of things and also could help push the band forward from there. I jump ahead and this is where it gets controversial, because I have two attendance bias pick and I did not expect one of these on my list at all until I revisited it in the context of the full list. And that is 9:3, 2021, the set closer at Dick's. This version comes at the end of a set that I kind of found a little underwhelming. The sound Was really bad in the venue at the time. Sometimes you get a lot of wind at Dicks and it gets a little muddy. But in hindsight is a really cool set of kind of rarer songs. And then I don't know where Karini goes for 20 minutes. And the opposite of the Halloween 2013 version. This is so effects heavy and this is so in line with where the band was at in 2021. There's just synth petals galore. Paige is going wild. Even Mike is getting in on it. Fishman is just going like absolutely nuts. It's the four of them and just kind of full four band conversation that bounces around. There's some peaking going on, but there's also some like really abstract music being played. I love this version. Did not expect it at all to be on my list. And then the final version, I tried to hold this off, really tried. But I had to keep this on because I think it's the right call. It's the best encore that the band has ever played. October 16, 2021, the next version after Dick's 2021. When I listen back to it, the synths fuse with. With trays. You know, the wah pedal. Just like. It's so big, it's so dark, it's so wild. It happens in the encore. It's one of those like Perini works really well when it is a shock performance that like shocks the system and then builds off of it into a jam. And this does that to a tee. The jam was so great that I wanted to podcast 2 o' clock in the morning with RJ, but he wouldn't let me. Never let him forget that moment just in case it happens again. So two attendance bias versions and two earlier versions I think set the tone for the song. But I don't think you could go wrong. Karini is just so, so awesome. There are so many versions we did not mention.

[RJ]

Yeah, I think for me. So the 10 16, 21 was the first one that fell off. That was. That was it. It was between that one and the. And the 23 version. The problem is I've basically seen every awesome Karini. So I have so much attendance bias that it's like, what am I supposed to do? I've been at all these shows. I was probably at Amsterdam 97 for all I know. So this is. Just makes it harder from my perspective. I think the. The Halloween 2013 version is. Is great again. Was. There was. Was an amazing, amazing release after that up and down Halloween set, to put it mildly. The. The kind of, like, riff that he uses to build up back to the peak is really notable and really cool. And I think there's a lot in there about that kind of, like, reminds you that they were playing a bunch of new songs because there's so many new sounds that tour. So I had some other thoughts, but I'll leave it there. Megan, what do you. What do you like? What would you like to say?

[Megan]

Well, I also had 10, 16, 21 on my list. I'll start from the bottom. This obviously killer show that was drafted by someone, I think, who's pretty good at drafting. I don't. I don't remember who exactly it was, but someone drafted this show in a draft, but I honestly have no idea.

[RJ]

And I don't even know what draft you're talking about.

[Megan]

But this jam, the W. Like, cinematic sweeping sheets of, like, textured sounds around 10 minutes in, is so fucking good. It is worth the F bomb there. I mean it. This is just one of the most incredibly textured, sophisticated, modern fish jams. And it has a glorious peak. And I just think that this. This one had to be on my list. It's probably. It's definitely one of my favorite carinis of all time. But my list was the parody show from 97. We all three had that, which is great. Then I went to a place that I thought one of you would have on your list, to be honest. I went to the 10, 18, 13 Hampton version because it's so sick. It is so exploratory. It's such a huge journey. I cannot believe. It's only 16 minutes. And I really love having one of these on there. That's just one of these, like, tight, super packed versions. Like, this one is. It's driving, bluesy, dancy, just. I love this Hampton version. I just kept coming back to it, so I wanted that on my list. And my.

[Brian]

That was on my honorable mentions. That's a great, great version. Candy Fish version, right?

[Megan]

Yeah, it's so good. And then my last. My third version is 9:1 from 17 from Dick's. I just love this jam because it starts off, it has this big, like, bold stomping onto the stage, energy that leads into the jam. And then it gets super quiet. It has that post apocalyptic walk me out in the morning dew vibe. And the way they build out of that is so beautiful. And Mike is just absolutely crushing it. Going so hard under the peak. And then it has that post peak funk section with the organ. And Mike's, like, toying around in this really compelling way it's this jam I just kept. I. Abed this one and Alpharetta a lot, and this one I just liked more.

[RJ]

I think that just so. So I mentioned 10, 16, 21. That was the first one outside of the four for me. And then the second one was the 9117 version. Yeah, I think that the. The spaceships landing in the middle of the field kind of vibe, which you get if you've been to Dick's, you know, Know, you can feel that. You can, like, hear. You can see the smoky. The smoke rising up, and you can feel the chill. You can see Brian putting on his flannel. But, man, Trey and Mike also kind of, like, are, like, dueling for, like, the lead. And the buildup to the peak, which is, like a. Kind of a cool way to, like, build that tension to that. To that peak. It's really awesome. Um, the. The other two that were in my top eight, we haven't been mentioned or didn't make anyone's list, which were 7, 24, 18. I was also at that show. The. The way that they. That doesn't really. Like, first of all, there's, like, this immediate, like, echoplex funk jam in the. In the beginning, and Mike is just, like, all over this version, and then it kind of turns, like, to. Into this serene space at the end. That's almost like you sexy thing. It's got that, like, vibe to it.

[Megan]

It.

[RJ]

And that's just an awesome version. And the other one I want to mention, because there's too many to mention, but I do think we. The 8, 3, 112 version just. It stayed in my top eight for so long, and I think it's just because this show is just. It's just so great. It's like. It's just such a perfect show. But the rhythmic sync that the band is in during the show is just outrageous. Like, it just. Mike's bass is so powerful. And then that little riff that Trey gets into toward the end of that jam is just.

[Brian]

Wow.

[RJ]

It's just heavenly. And then there's, like, 20. There's, like, 20 other versions that I think are amazing.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Megan]

I mean, Brian, do you want to share your honorables? And then I'll share mine.

[Brian]

My honorables are 12, 30, 12, no notes, 10, 18, 13, no notes, 9, 1, 17. I mean, just outstanding that we got the no men's this and the ghost in terms of, like, third quarters and fish history, that's one of the best ever. 8, 3, 18, and then 8, 31, 23, which was the only Carini I had higher than Philadelphia in my 2023 list. I thought. Talk about, like, rhythmic hookups. Five minutes into. Once they've finished the song, Trey and Paige and Fish are just, like, back and forth, and then it goes in this really beautiful, blissful peak. Another great riff. That was an awesome run until the venue decided to kill the Sunday show. But the first three shows of that Dick's run were just outstanding stuff.

[RJ]

I just want to say about that 831 version. I listened to that and the man version back to back, because chronologically at first and then again, and I think it. To me, it just didn't have the propulsion of the man version. I felt like the man version was more like. Like, just more of like a tour de force. But I think it's an awesome version.

[Brian]

I think you're right. I think what. Where our differences come down to is just, like, difference of what we're looking for. Like, yeah, like, I want a little. I'm willing to give a little bit more to, like, a less powerful jam if it has more abstraction, if that makes sense. But I love the Philly version. I love. That is. What a peak.

[RJ]

My God, what a peak. Inspired. Probably inspired the man tumble from the following year, which is also incredible. Peak.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Rick the Man Rick, who we all.

[Brian]

Know is studying jam band history to try to advance himself. There's. He's not just kind of stumbling into. It definitely was like, I need. I need a bigger peak than what Fish did a year earlier. That. That feels definitely. Peter didn't do that. You're right. Right.

[Megan]

I had a few in honorable mentions that we haven't talked about. I had 12, 30, 12, 10, 25, 13, which is just so short, but so sick. Just perfect.

[RJ]

I had to, like, I had to take that out of contention. Only because of the length. Like, it just didn't. It just. If it had been.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Not because of the length, but because it just didn't. Like, it could have kept going for another 10 minutes and it maybe would have been like. Like, the best version ever.

[Megan]

Yeah, it could have. But, like, sometimes that's just what it is. And I think listening back, though, I was like, this is so solid, though, that I just want to have it in my honorable mentions because it's so good, even though it's short.

[Brian]

Karini is just so capable of being so powerful, even when being short. Like, there's a version. There are three versions from late 2010, I believe. Telluride, Broomfield, and Atlantic City. And I want to even say the Providence version that are no more than 10 minutes long and contain so many ideas within them. And I think that this version is in that category. It's probably the best of those early type of exploratory carinis. I will just give a shout out. 10, 25, 13. Severely underrated show. A lot of songs. People will look at that set list and be like, just a lot of songs. But I cannot recommend that show enough if you haven't heard it in some time.

[Megan]

I haven't heard that in a long time. I'll listen to that maybe. But I've probably got a million other projects that you guys are putting me up to. But the rest of My list is 7, 16, 17 North Island. I love these pre Bakers Dozen blow offs. They're just awesome. The biggest dozens version is on my honorable mention too. What a killer Carini. And then I have 8, 3, 18, Alpharetta. And I also have 7, 30, 21 Oak Mountain, Alabama. Yeah, because do you just remember how sick that was when they played this? The second show in fucking 2021 when the band had not played in so long. And I just remember streaming that show and being like, these guys are just the best. Like, it was so exciting. And hear them just rip into this carini was like so awesome. Worth the swear. And lastly, I did have one that I really loved that it couldn't stop thinking about was 2, 20, 22 Mexico. Yeah, that's a great.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Was there. Yeah.

[Brian]

The time to flee Karini.

[Megan]

The time.

[RJ]

It's very cool. There's almost like a David Dave's energy guide thing toward the end where it like starts to dissolve. It's really like. There's so much going on there. That's a good one.

[Megan]

Yeah. It's like super rhythmic, but it's over. Synths. It's. It's really cool. It stays in one spot for a while, which is why it doesn't like really transcend for me. But it's so pretty at the end.

[Brian]

Four songs, second set.

[Megan]

Yeah, please.

[RJ]

Mexico. Okay. So you know the Baker's Dozen version, I just want to say like this. The way that it melts into Mr. Completely is one of the coolest things about that version. And I. I had to like, give it a little bit of a discount because of that. You know, I had to like. Because part of it is like the way that. That, you know, two minutes happens is like one of the coolest parts of the jam. You know what I mean? Do you guys, like feel that way.

[Megan]

Is like part of it to me, that's a bonus. Like, I. Yeah, that's even better. If they can do that at the end of a jam.

[Brian]

That impacts my decision, because that is more of a segment to me than a version, like a singular thing. This is an endless debate I have with the entire jam band community. But when you have a big segue at the end, I mean, I'm not exhausted. I'm. I'm. I'm here for the endless debates. Come on now. That's why we podcast.

[RJ]

The.

[Brian]

The. The fade into Mr. Completely means in my mind that it is like Karini Mr. Completely. And then I think there's another fade that happens later on.

[Megan]

You don't count it as part of the jam.

[Brian]

Well, I mean, it's, It's. It's its own thing. But, like, I don't think you get the conclusion of what that song is until the end of Mr. Completely, which even that has like a fade into 1999. Like, to me, that. That. That is a set that is a full, complete set of Fish, and the Carini is a part of that. Whereas some of the other versions here, you pull it out of the remainder of the set like it's. It's its own thing. These other versions where this is like, the Carini is amazing, but, like, part of what makes the Carini amazing is its placement and its service for the larger set. That makes sense.

[RJ]

Forbin777 makes a great point here that your. Your battle with the entire fish community must be on a secret social media platform.

[Brian]

Everyone who's got my phone number.

[RJ]

Yeah, it's everyone battling Brian. One. One version I want to mention, which didn't make it too far on my list, but it made me think about. About how much I miss Architect, which is the 7613 version. It doesn't do, like, that much. It's. It's beautiful. It's got this, like, very much, like, blissful section, but it goes into Architect, which is like. Do you remember the. The Gorge Night 2, 2013? Remember the webcast where, like, they played the curtain with first and then Architect?

[Megan]

I know exactly how amazing is that, watching that live.

[RJ]

And I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

[Megan]

And then they could have done that on Monday. Green Day 4 could have done that. Then.

[Brian]

That version from stock, that is. That is hoes. That is defined hoes. Trey was not playing like that a lot during that period in time. The split up in a melt earlier in that show. Now we're just talking 2013. Yeah, let's just, you know. No, that's a great version. One I wanted to mention that did not. Not come close to making my list, but I think is worth shouting out is 9:14, 2000. It's kind of the. This is Karini as a type 1.5 song. It doesn't really jam outside of Karini, but it shows what Korini as a chord progression and as a theme could do for the band and is an excellent show. Great version here. There's an Albuquerque right around it, which would be cool if they played that in Boulder.

[G]

I'd be.

[Brian]

I'd be into that. But amazing stuff.

[Megan]

That version has that, like, dark, really angry, almost soloing from Trey. It's so mean and foreboding. It's spooky, scary.

[RJ]

Yeah. Really? Yeah. And there's so many good ones. Damn. Well, I just want to say I'm sorry to everybody out there for. For the choices that I made, but. But I'm actually not sorry because I made awesome choices, so I hope everybody enjoys them.

[Brian]

Nothing to apologize about. You're good.

[Megan]

Sorry, not sorry.

[RJ]

I think we should add a new segment of our show that's called Monogreen Day four, where it's just, like, something in every episode is like, fish could have done that. It doesn't even have to be a song. It could be, like, when we're talking about, you know, something cool happening in the world or, you know, anything. It has to be every episode.

[Brian]

We're gonna do a draft where we draft a better version of Mondi Green Day four.

[Megan]

Yes. I'm here for that. It's gonna happen also, rj, just so you know, I have been trying to make that segment happen. I pretty much do it almost every.

[RJ]

No, you do, you do. You do. I mean, I'm just making sure that we know that that's it. That is part of the. Part of the show.

[Brian]

Well, speaking of our recurrent segments, we have a new live Fish official release coming out on Friday, just announced. If it's not 7. 25. We do. Wow. It's not 7. 25.99. I'm gonna get, like. Like, really, really annoyed here because, like, I don't know, we praise this band on a weekly basis. I take time out of my day to do research and really, like, put all of my heart and soul into this band. We take your criticism out there. I take Megan somehow algorithmically winning every single draft. You know, like, we. We do everything that we can here. I take RJ Picking the wrong attendance bias. Karinis you know, like we, we do all we, we suffer and we sacrifice and all I'm waiting on is 7.25.99 being officially released. Can we just, can we get that, Kevin, please? My God.

[RJ]

Well, we're gonna see. Let's see what happens. I also just. Sorry, Brian. Can I just go back to my picks just for one second? Because I just want to. I just. Brian is trying to push the false narrative that I only picked carinis that have, like a bliss. This full peak, the 123012 version that I picked has no peak. It's dark and brooding and weird and tense. That's 25 of Mount Rushmore with no bliss. So just take that.

[Brian]

It's a good point. It's a good point. Abstract, Karini. I concede.

[RJ]

All right, Speaking of abstract, we are going to be back next week for more abstract Fish discussion. We are going to be doing a draft and Brian, I, I. What's the draft again?

[Brian]

Next week's draft is our summer tour preview. We are going to be drafting shows from New Hampshire, Western Pennsylvania, Texas, Colorado, non Dicks, Ohio, South Carolina, Philly, Chicago, New York City, non MSG and spac. So every venue, region where Fish is playing their summer tour, we will each be drafting a show, a historical show. From there, I have curated a list of all shows and then went through. Had a cutoff of 3.75 rating on fish.net except I had to include a few others. I had to make some swaps because there were a couple shows I know for sure, for sure are not 3.75 shows and were listed as 3.75 shows. Night two of Grand Prairie, Texas. I'm looking at you, kid. And there are a couple other shows that should have been in that higher rating and were not based on larger averages. So all that said, we put in the work. Meg now needs to do all of her research to prepare for what should be a very eventful and lengthy draft.

[RJ]

So true. That's gonna be fun.

[Megan]

Yep. I'm gonna spend my birthday working on the draft, you know, and you guys will just show up and do it because it's so good for you.

[Brian]

Yep, I'm ready for it. I'm already ready.

[Megan]

Oh, we know, Brian.

[RJ]

I should have said this. I should have said this earlier, but if you happen to be in Rhode island or around Rhode island, this Thursday reprise is going to be creating, recreating my favorite Fish jam of all time. And. And sadly, I'm not going to be there. But they are going to be at a place called Ocean Mist, and they're going to be recreating 12, 2994. And that's.

[Megan]

Damn.

[RJ]

We'll have to release it at some point because it's going to be incredible no matter what. But just want to encourage people who are up in the northeast to who can get to a show, go check them out, especially that show. Go. It's gonna be epic. Okay. Anything else, guys, besides happy birthday, Megan, Brian, were you gonna sing or.

[Brian]

Or already sang? Voice memo.

[RJ]

Sure.

[Brian]

Thank you.

[RJ]

Okay. All right. We will see you guys next week for the for our monster draft, which is going to make everyone happy and friendly. And thanks everybody for tuning in.

[Megan]

Thanks, everyone. Thanks for celebr my birthday with me.

[Brian]

Sam Sa.

[Lawrence Lanahan]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you, too. Learn [e-mail].

[Osiris]

Osiris.