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- [00:01]
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- [00:57]
Brian
Osiris.
- [01:15]
Megan
Okay, cool.
- [01:16]
RJ
This is a, this is a, this is a family program, Megan. Just as a reminder. So if you could just mind that please, for us and our listeners, that would be Nice. This is HFPod. We're back. We're all here. We're going into down with Disease soon, don't worry. But we have some stuff to talk about first, but Brian and Megan, how you guys doing?
- [01:43]
Megan
Tired, but I'm good. I'm ready to roll.
- [01:47]
Osiris Host
I'm having a bit of a Monday feeling, but I'm ready to be here and bring my third grade polite, very responsible language to the show. Thanks to a review where I was called out for dropping too many f bombs. So I'm sorry to those of you that enjoy my passion, but I'm gonna have to find some new vocabulary to express my love for this band. I didn't know it was, this was such a family show, but I'm gonna work on that. One of my students today actually said to me, megan, I listened to your podcast and I said, oh, you did? He's like, yeah, I listened to it this weekend. It's really funny. And I said, did you hear me curse? Did I swear at all? And he said, no, but my mom lets me hear swear words so it's totally fine. So if a third grader can handle it, I don't know, I'm just, I thought we were all adults here, but I'm going to try to clean up my language for those who care about that.
- [02:37]
Megan
I mean, kids in New York are just not the same as kids in the heartland. All accept that they have a different standard.
- [02:44]
Osiris Host
You know, it's not God's country. We all know that. Like Morgan Wallen said after being at Our show here, in essence, you know.
- [02:51]
RJ
You coming up with more words, you know, to describe your feelings. That is kind of a, you know, that's a challenge for all of us, but it's also an opportunity, you know.
- [03:03]
Megan
Kind of part of the job, isn't it?
- [03:06]
RJ
Kind of. Not for Megan. Megan can just.
- [03:10]
Osiris Host
That's right. I just usually say the same shit over and over again and swear just like I just did. So, yeah, it's hard for me. I don't know. I feel comfortable here. I do actually have. I do swear a lot in my life and I don't do it from the hours of 8 to 3 unless I'm talking to other teachers. And I don't know if people know this, but teachers have really bad language, but not when we're talking to students. So I have some self control, clearly.
- [03:33]
Megan
But I have to imagine your conversations. I have to imagine your conversations, like the teacher's lounge are similar to like a waiter's conversation about a certain table when they get back into the kitchen, you know, and just like, oh, my God, that asshole who just keeps asking for me to fill up his coffee every time. I can see that you just took one sip. What do you need it as hot as, you know, that sort of stuff.
- [03:56]
Osiris Host
Like, exactly.
- [03:57]
Megan
Call them out and call them out.
- [03:59]
Osiris Host
We need it. We need a place to vent, to escape. And I really like that. I have this dichotomy of, you know, a side of myself that's, you know, a third grade teacher and does the right thing all the time. And then there's a side of me that that's not that. So here I am acting out that side, but I'm going to give it together. Let's see if I can go a whole show without saying, the good news.
- [04:18]
RJ
Is we got a bunch of new reviews and we got great reviews. And so thank you all for leaving us reviews. Keep leaving us reviews because they're entertaining and helpful. Megan and I are going to be at Garcia's in Port Chester, New York this Thursday before the Reprise show. We are going to be talking about the island tour live on stage. We're going to have a couple of the guys from Reprise talk about the island tour with us. So it's going to be fun. If you're coming to Garcia's, make sure you come early to check that out and we'll release the audio of it at some point. We don't know when. At some point when we. When we need. When we need to. Okay, we got to play a couple voicemails. From their last episode. Not surprisingly, the last episode got a lot of people feeling a lot of things. So, you know, we got to give everyone a little bit of a, you know, a chance to, to, to express their feelings, you know, and maybe they'll come up with, with creative ways to, to, to explain how strongly they feel. Or maybe not. Maybe they'll just curse. Hold on here. Let's listen to one. Let's listen to this one first. You guys ready? I hope so.
- [05:23]
Brian
What's up, guys? This is Brian from Maine. I don't know. I've called in a few times now. It's been a minute. Listening to your podcast about the transcendent experience of the concert or, you know, you, you guys were talking about the live experience basically and you know, talking about how like Brian made some comment about it shouldn't have to do with where fish is at the moment and you like reference some 2016 MSG show or something and we all go to these shows to hit that one. Like, I've sat through so many FISH shows that were the most fun. You know, I love the people, I love the moments. But, you know, and I was very, very lucky to be at a lot of these good shows. A lot of good shows, in my opinion. You know, the Worcester from 98, the Wipeout set is one that comes to mind. Like when that started to happen in the second set, it was elation, you know, that's what you go for. And the vibe afterwards at the Crown Plaza and Worcester, elation. We were high fiving like we had just won the World Series. You know, it's great when they rise to the occasion or on a Tuesday night somewhere, random throw down this insane show. You know, that that's why we go for it. I don't know. I don't even know. I just like hearing. I just like talking about this kind of stuff. Anyway. God, I hope you don't put this on.
- [06:58]
Caller
All right, guys, bye.
- [07:02]
RJ
So the, the number one, the number one rule is that if you say please don't put this on, then it's definitely going on.
- [07:08]
Megan
It's going on.
- [07:10]
RJ
Brian, I want to get your reaction, but we have one more. We have another reaction to this because, you know, we, we got some people fired up. Okay, here's the second one. It's going to happen. Don't worry.
- [07:27]
Caller
Hey, Pod, this is Adam and Austin here, longtime listener, third time caller. I am calling in regards to. Do you have to be there to get it? A really interesting podcast episode y' all just released and I got to Admit sheepishly, I'm the kid in the back of the class raising their hand.
- [07:46]
Megan
Who wrote.
- [07:47]
Caller
Who wrote a rude comment, uncalled for, along the lines of reviewing shows without being in the room is so 2009 or something like that. Anywho, I just wanted to clarify my thoughts and also give y' all praise in the next two minutes here. Really interesting conversation and episode that you guys had. I think, you know, there's a. There's a tendency for people who've been to a ton of shows or entire tours to dominate conversations. Yes. This is completely ridiculous. People who have major obligations, raising families. I think businesses, yes, of course, they're not able to get to shows. People who live in Florida, those poor people. Yes, of course, it's worse than Texas. They get no shows. The affordability and privilege discussion. Yes, yes, of course. Right on. My little only point is when that's feasible, I'm just more interested in hearing what it was like in the room. Webcasts, live fish, audience recordings. These are great. We're lucky to have them, but they just don't compare to the intensity, the vibrancy, the vividness of being at a live show. The high fives after a great one, the collective groans or 555 or something like that. And this alone is sort of a privileged take.
- [09:13]
Megan
Right?
- [09:15]
Caller
I know RJ has gone down this road of trying to get people at last night's show on the podcast. It ain't easy. Let's say the only guy you've got lined up For Deer Creek 2's review, he goes by Squirrel, and he calls you two hours late driving down the highway on speakerphone. Not great podcasting. So I get it.
- [09:38]
Megan
It's.
- [09:39]
Caller
It's not easy to acquire this.
- [09:41]
RJ
I wonder if that was real.
- [09:42]
Caller
Anywho, I just hope you clarify.
- [09:45]
Osiris Host
I did.
- [09:46]
Caller
Y' all work hard. Y' all are great at fish, and you make me feel more like a member of this fine community. And, you know, like I said before, we've got plenty of trolls in the world, so we need more community. Appreciate y' all. Thanks.
- [10:00]
Osiris Host
Aw.
- [10:02]
Megan
Damn. You really got us prepared for, like, people coming after us with, like, fangs ready to just, like, tear us apart. I feel like those were two of the most down the middle. Hey, I have a slight oppositional take, but also, I really appreciate what you guys did. Let's just get those voicemails all the time. This is like the king in court. Just, like, give us kiss the ring and give us compliments type of stuff. Come on.
- [10:30]
RJ
Isn't it Better, isn't it better now that you were like, prepared for something negative and you got something positive? It's true. It's all set up.
- [10:37]
Osiris Host
You set our expectations. I really appreciate those. And I just had one thought though, as like, kind of a little bit of a pushback, a devil's advocate to the last caller in that. Do you think maybe that. Of course hearing about what it was like in the room is important. Do you think it ever provides anything that you weren't expecting? Like, do the. The way that people describe being at a fish show is usually kind of the same. So I don't know. I think that often when you have people on to say about last night's show, they'll often talk about the good vibes or the high fiving or the collective groans or everything that that caller was so articulate about. That's kind of it. Like, you can also talk about the music, but you don't have to be there to do that. So I don't know. I think there's. You can tell specific stories about something that happened that I think capture that evening in a special way. But I just think over and over again, you tend to get a little bit of the same description of shows inside. I don't know. I don't know if you guys agree or not, but that's just what I was thinking about when he was saying that.
- [11:54]
Megan
I think that's a quite courageous and on point take. I'm proud of you for making it because I think you might catch some flack for it.
- [12:05]
Osiris Host
That's my new thing, apparently.
- [12:07]
Megan
No, like, trying to figure out how much I want to say about what I'm thinking about saying right now. I think that the most, the most. The kindest way I can say this, the most judicious way I can say what I'm about to say is there's a reason we stopped doing a lot of those quick hits because I think we found that you can get more into the meat of the bones of what a run meant when you discuss it in full or when you discuss like a week of a tour and like, okay, what happened across these six shows rather than like, Divided Skies started fourth song of the first set and the vibes were sky high because the sun was out and it was beautiful and like. Or the sun was setting, it was beautiful, which I'm sure someone there, like, felt and that really meant something. But, like, that doesn't totally communicate, like, the music. And I think to both of those callers, like, they made really fair points about the joy of being there, which I think we all made very clear in our episode, that, like, we're not going to stop going to fish shows. It's just one thing I was thinking after the episode, I was talking with a buddy of mine. I was lucky enough to be at the fuck your face show, my 28th fish show. And I always joke that it was the first great fish show I ever saw. Saw them for nine years, and then finally saw a great show. Like, a truly great show. And I remember the feeling of it. And I specifically remember the Undermine. And it's one of my favorite jams I've ever seen live. And then I remember two years later, I was at a buddy's house drinking beers late in the night, and we put that jam on, and he asked me if I'd ever noticed the wood block. And there's a point in the jam where Fishman starts hitting the wood block, and the whole jam then shifts and operates around, like, moves around it. And I had never noticed it. And he was not at the show. I was at the show. And it's not as though, like, I'm bad at fish. He's better at fish. Whatever. My point is just like, someone who wasn't there noticed something that, like, elevated the jam for me years later, that made a great moment that much better in hindsight because I had someone else who was able to be like, hey, you should hear this. Or, like, check this part of it out. So I only say that as, like, yes, the in the moment intensity. You can't totally mimic that on the couch. But, like, the music appreciation, I think you can 100% appreciate, like, get on the couch.
- [14:44]
Osiris Host
Yeah. And when. So when Jam bass asked me to write a review, if they ask me for a show that I'm at, I have a much harder time doing it. I'd rather be on the couch watching the show, taking notes, analyzing it as I'm going, rather than being at the show and then coming back and trying to reflect on that experience, because I just wanted to be there and experience it. So I agree.
- [15:07]
RJ
Yeah, I mean, we struck a nerve in a good way. Keep the voicemails coming. Obviously, we need to. We need to talk about down with disease. We have. We. This is our biggest undertaking so far of this series. I would say. Yeah, pretty easily.
- [15:22]
Osiris Host
Yeah, it was intense.
- [15:25]
RJ
Millions of versions. Megan, how do we. What do we need to know before we start talking about their. These versions? And by the way, Brian is telling us his versions. So Brian is. Brian has the. Brian has the chisel. So we're just waiting.
- [15:44]
Osiris Host
I do not envy you this week, Brian. Thinking about Down With Disease and thinking about how it began as this kind of triumphant celebratory arrival on New Year's Eve in 1993. And this song has just always rocked and I didn't say the F word like I was going to there. The band had recorded the song for the album already and included the jam. Everybody knows but I, after ringing in the New year and Trey's playing back into Auld Lang Syne to me should be enough to get him into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame alone. But this song, the lyrics were written by Tom when he was laid up with mono. And the full version of this rock anthem was played for the first time at the Hoist tour opener on April 4, 1994. And it started out as just a short kind of guitar solo based jam. But that changed fairly quickly and by November that year they play a big version with a have Mercy sandwich. And by the following, the song has exploded with that killer version in Spack and again in Providence in December. But it really takes on kind of mythic jam vehicle status in this off year in 1996, and played at important moments in that year in 1997, and continued to be a reliable jam vehicle in important moments for the band in every era. It's just quintessential classic fish. It's in line with your bathtub gins, your tweezers. It's just a monster jam vehicle that really defines who the band is and is really one of their biggest arsenals when they want to jam. And I think because of that it has a super low average show gap. It has a few outlying years. In 1995 it hit 48 shows and in 2017 it hit 14. But otherwise it tends to stay super low, like under 5. And the biggest show gap in 4.0 was 10 shows. So they play it all the time. It's been played 330 times and it has 108 entries on the jam chart. So 32% likelihood of jamming, which is absolutely huge. So Brian created a list of 30 top HF pod versions. And I don't know how you narrow this down to four. I mean I did it too, but it was with a lot less pressure. So I'm super excited to see where we go with this because this to me, I don't know why it felt harder than Bathtub Gin, but maybe because it's. I guess Bathtub Gin has been jamming in all eras too. But this one just seems to hit even in the off years in really strong ways.
- [18:17]
Megan
Yeah. And I mean, I think the, the, the biggest comparison I can make with this one thus far is Bathtub Gin. In terms of like, the intensity of the series. We've got a few heavy hitters coming by year's end. That is going to mess with everyone, especially RJ doing Possum. I can't wait for that one. But the thing that makes this challenging compared to Gin is Gin while it's hat. While it has great versions into 3.0 and into 4.0, the ones in 3, later 3.0 and 4.0, to me felt like slight outliers where it was very clear that there was a four to six year period in time where Bathtub Gin was a totally dominant force within the catalog and within the live repertoire. Whereas Disease, like you said, Meg, like those stats about its show gap, it makes total sense. And it's also wild to hear at all at the same time. This is a song that. How many shows have you been to where you're like, what are they open in second set with? And someone in your crew just yells out Disease. And like, it feels like nine times out of ten they're right. Because it is just when the band needs a second set opener, they come out and they play Disease. Many fans get upset about this. I don't really understand why. I think it is one of the five greatest Fish songs ever and seems to always lead to just massive jams. The thing that makes a difference from different from Gin is where Gin, our last version, and this is a little bit of a giveaway giveaway here, but our Last version was three. It was in 2003. There's no way you can tell the story of Download, Disease and Fish and stop in 2003. It just doesn't like, yeah, there are so many great 1.0 versions, so many great 2.0 versions. But then it continues. And from the very first weekend that Fish came back in 2009, disease was there as the lone jam vehicle. And it was there in the, you know, the early days of 3.0 when it seemed like nothing would get jammed. At least Down With Disease would jam for 14, 15 minutes. To give you a taste of who this band once was. It really carried them in a way that Tweezer could some of the time. But, like, not a lot of other songs really had the ability to, like, showcase this improvisational side of Fish the way that Dallin's Disease did. So, yeah, this was hard. This took A long time. This is the most I've listened through all of these versions. I have a very long and sprawling honorable mention list. But I think same I re listened this weekend and I think I'm pretty confident that the four I've selected best represent Dial Disease as a top tier jam vehicle. So what else do we have to hit before we dive in?
- [21:18]
RJ
Wow, that's just crazy. I was looking at my stats. I've seen Tweezer almost twice as many times as I've seen Down With Disease, but for some reason I still feel like I've seen every Down With Disease ever. There's something about it that's just like. It feels like. It's not like I don't like the song, it just feels like I always hear it and. But even though oftentimes the jams are amazing, I don't know what it is. I feel like I haven't seen enough tweezers and I've seen like way too many Down With Diseases despite, like the way the stats work. So I don't know what that is.
- [21:51]
Megan
No, I mean, I'm looking at mine and it's like the gaps between like the amount of times I've seen Down With Disease and then one show later, even if it was like six months later, like I got another Down With Z. Like, it's just like every, every time you go and see fish, like you're getting it. Down with Disease.
- [22:13]
Osiris Host
I actually did this song, the song more after this too. Like, I've always loved it. Whenever I hear this song, it just makes me feel 17. It has such a youthful Fish vibe to it and it's so embedded in like my early Fish Fish listening that I love hearing it. I also think it's one of their best composed, like rock songs or radio songs. Like, to me it's really. It's a really good, I think, version of what they could do if they were ever going to be a radio band. And I remember last time we were talking about the last Rushmore episode we had. We were talking about if you listen to the song or just skip ahead. So I didn't, I didn't skip ahead until I did my final. Probably like third listen through of the. Of the top eight versions. I. I ended up with 10 versions. And I felt surprised that I didn't want to. Like, I was okay with it. I didn't, I didn't mind it. It's a fun song.
- [23:16]
RJ
I just, I was. As I was going back through these, I was thinking about listening to the song and I Do think I still. The reason that I need to do it is that you get a feel for, like, the venue, the sound, the tempo, the tone.
- [23:30]
Osiris Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:31]
RJ
I think you get all that, like, with this, with the song and the chorus before the jam. So I think, like, I think, like, I'm still. I'm still listening to all of it.
- [23:39]
Osiris Host
I'm spending every time. Yeah, I mean, same. I've listened to these a million times, but, yeah, that's. I get it. And I think I'm just cheating at the very end. That's all I'm saying. If that's my third or fourth listen through, I gotta save some time. I've already been spending way too much time on that.
- [23:54]
Megan
Well, at that point, yeah, you're kind of getting to like, does this jam outweigh this one? But I think to RJ's point, like, like, when we did the Tweezer Draft last year, I basically started every version of tweezer at 5 minutes and 30 seconds. Because, like, we were. You're looking to draft, like, you're looking to amass a list of jams at that point in time. The challenge here, the difference here, and I think that this is part of the project that we haven't talked as much to this point in time, but it's something I've been thinking about as we continue to go along, is how much the performance of the song with the jam leads me to select it. Because there are, yeah, some very sloppy versions of songs that then jam very well, not just diseases, kind of like just overall. And then there are these, like, very tight, performative versions of songs that then lead to a jam as a result of it. And that was really something that you got in kind of early 3.0. If they particularly nailed the. The compositional part of a song, that usually meant that they were locked in and they would allow themselves the opportunity to breathe a little bit through a jam. But I, you know, time is of the. This was the most time consuming of these because I ended up with a list of two Mount Rushmores. This was six weeks ago. Two Mount Rushmore versions. And then like, 23 possible. I don't know, like, 20 possible. Like, I was just like. I was so lost for a while and I went back and I re. Listened to them all. I took a break and I came and I've come up with my list at this point. To your point, though, Meg, like, the riff in this song is one of my favorite things that Fish has ever written.
- [25:34]
Osiris Host
Yeah, it's so good.
- [25:34]
Megan
And I want to hear it every time. Every time.
- [25:36]
Osiris Host
So good. I was just looking. I've seen this at 20% of my shows, which feels about right. I never. I never.
- [25:45]
RJ
I'm never upset when I hear it Feels like more. Brian, what is your. What is your first entry where you got to do it?
- [25:54]
Megan
All right, let's dive in.
- [25:56]
RJ
Okay, it's time.
- [25:58]
Megan
Everyone's waiting. Okay.
- [25:59]
RJ
We have our friend in Texas who's almost at work, and we need to hear it.
- [26:06]
Megan
All right, so little preamble before I dive in. Magus Meg said we have 30 versions. They come across the eras. We even included just, you know, kind of a hat tip to the origin. The 123193 version. That does not make the list, but, you know, first version ever in such a unique spot. When I thought about my first version of Download Disease, I wanted to put a clear stake in the ground as to when down disease became down disease. Now, fall or spring and summer 94 have these, like, very tight, booming versions. They don't totally seem to know where to play it. It's a lot of, like, midway through the first set that starts to expand, like Meg said, by the fall, we get the Kent, Ohio. I think it is that version from 1112, we get one of my favorite jams ever in SPAC 95 and then in Providence 95, two versions I considered putting on this list. I did not, because I felt as though as. As the song evolves, the things that they say in both of those versions are said better later. Specifically the SPAC one. It was the last one to fall off of my list. It was truly heartbreaking moment. Late at night, sitting on the couch, trying to make the decision. Wanted to text both of you, but we keep this. You know, we keep this isolated until we go record. And. And I just. I didn't know what to do. I was. I was lost for. For hours. I considered the Seattle 96 version because it's a ripper and it is really aggressive. Hendrick C. Tray and I ultimately landed, though, on a version that I think sets the table for what down disease means for fish. And a lot of cases who fish means going forward. And this is also a pretty big moment because this is now going to be, I think, the third entry from this set into the Mount Rushmore list.
- [28:23]
Osiris Host
Wow.
- [28:23]
Megan
This is the. Went down with disease 8 17, 1997. As I broke this down for myself, this. This is the archetypal dwd, if you will, in both placement and delivery. This is a massive set. We're coming out for that second set, that glorified second set on night two of a 90s festival. Like you almost like these are, these are the moments that we talk about like years and decades later. Like these are the kind of sets the year before. That second set from night two at Clifford Ball is huge. Perfect top to bottom. Night two of the Lemon Wheel has a really good moment. Night two of whatchamacallit, Oswego, I think is where you get that big Runaway Gym, huge ghost in night two of it, so on and so forth. This is a huge, huge placement in Fish history. Like always this glad we're talking about.
- [29:26]
RJ
As we go in the context of this.
- [29:37]
Megan
I'm trying to get this out exactly as I want because I just can like, I can hear the blowback that's coming from both you guys and my text threads. This also then expands into a 27 minute long jam that has 70s miles funk. It gets into weird, like, you know, turn of the century piano duets, like weird stuff between like Trey and Paige and Trey and Mike. It's totally expansive, it has no rails. And it really sets the tone for what Down Disease will be. It will be a song that when in doubt, we are going to open a second set with this song. We are going to unleash all of our creative forces. You may not always get the greatest version, but you know you're in for like 18 to 25 minutes of really solid improvisation. And if nothing else, if it's a terrible show, you're going to walk away with like, well, they played a really good disease to kick off the second set. And that is like kind of a tried and true rule of Fish. So you get this version that really kind of sets the tone for where the song is going forward. And it's also one of my favorite jams in fish history. So 8, 1797, your responses.
- [30:55]
Osiris Host
I'm still shook that SPAC is not on your list.
- [30:59]
Megan
Gotta make difficult decisions.
- [31:01]
Osiris Host
I know, I get it. And we can talk about. I'll share my list later obviously. But yeah, I'm just. I'm surprised that we're not getting a mention of the song till 97. But I totally agree with this pick for you. It's different for mine, but this jam is so effortless and lacks urgency in the best way. When I was listening to this jam again, I kept thinking about RJ, what you said, what you say sometimes about 97 and that when you were going to see 97, you were like, why is it so slow sometimes? Why is there so much like patience and it's funny, in one recording of this song, you can actually hear someone say after this, they should go into something fast. Which is fucking hilarious. Oh, no, I did it. Oh, no. Sorry. I really was going to try. I was actually thinking, like, what can I ask her if I win? If I get all the way through? Okay, I didn't make it anyway. Maybe next time. But yeah, there's such a subtle nature to this jam that is so languid and beautiful and it's incredible. And I think the placement of having it go into the wind chin is just absolutely insane. But, yeah, I like this jam. And yeah, this is shocking to me. This is exciting. I was not surprised, expecting you to start there. You've surprised me.
- [32:26]
Megan
Were you expecting me to start with Spock? Like, was that what you were thinking?
- [32:30]
Osiris Host
That is one of my favorite versions of this song ever.
- [32:33]
Megan
Yeah, same, 100%. Yeah.
- [32:35]
Osiris Host
Yeah. I think it's the first time to me. Well, I don't know. I'll share my reasoning for mine later.
- [32:42]
RJ
I think this. The. The went jams. I think one of the things that this. I think this was maybe the first off my list. Maybe second, the. This kind of like, almost melancholy soloing that comes from Trey is like, so emotional. The whole weekend is so emotional. I think for me it was like almost too similar to the other jams. Which I guess is part of the point of them all being in the same set. Like, the feel of it compared to the Gin and the Hood, like, they're. They all have a similar feel. Right. Because it's all part of the same set. I do think that that ambient kind of patient space that they. Without, like, losing momentum is a really impressive part of it, you know, But. But the trade Trey's playing in this set in that whole weekend is just something that's really, really sticks out. I think you could. You could like, identify it anywhere, you know.
- [33:36]
Megan
Yeah.
- [33:37]
RJ
And.
- [33:39]
Megan
Well, two things because one, like the simple from the night before they. They show just a clip of his solo in Bittersweet Motel. And before I had any context for where it came from, I was just like, if you're gonna play guitar like that and like move your body like that while you're playing guitar and literally, like, just like show physically, like, what the music is doing to you. Like, I gotta listen more to this band. But then also, you know, with your point about, like, they have like, similar themes across the weekend. And, you know, I guess I was thinking we got the Winchin and we have the went hood and maybe this is Just like the flaw of having both of those picked early on. How can I not select this when this is. I don't know if this is the best jam from that set, but it's definitely, like the most experimental and weird and like it's. And in some ways, this sounds to me like the model for where Dallas is going to go. Like, the SPAC version gets so out there in a Summer 95 way that feels more aligned with Summer 95 to me than it does with Disease. This has that, like, chunky funk groove that comes out of the song that you're gonna hear up until today. Like the way that they leave Down With Disease and go into the jam, and then on the back end of it, we get into kind of like the post peak weirdness. Like, that structure kind of comes into Fish's jamming in summer and fall 1997. And while some aspects of it have changed, like, Paige doesn't get on the cloud the same way. Trey doesn't initiate, start, stop jamming the same sort of way. But like, that overall structure that emerged in summer 97, I think is still with Fish and is most like. You hear it clearest in Download Disease, where, like, if you hear a really good disease that doesn't really break the norm, it kind of sounds rooted in this disease to me.
- [35:45]
Osiris Host
Well, and I also think you don't have to worry about if it's the best jam in the set because that's not what you're picking. Right. You're picking the Download Disease, like, separated from those others. So I don't think that that. But it's an interesting point you brought up about if the. Like, I think you tend to think maybe more than I do in context, which is very on brand for both of us. But I think that when I look at these, sometimes I'm thinking about the jam in isolation of the song specifically and where it's going. I'm just thinking, how dynamic is this jam? Is this jam stop me in my tracks? Is this jam doing something this song hasn't done before? Not necessarily. Like, does it set a trend for what it's going to do in the future in a way that I think maybe you do, which is cool. I think that's kind of the diversity of how you select these, which is all of us do, which is cool.
- [36:40]
Megan
Well, it's going to be interesting to see if. Is this on either of your lists?
- [36:45]
Osiris Host
Nope.
- [36:45]
Megan
Wow. All right, here we go. We're off to a great.
- [36:47]
RJ
Mine, I think mine. I think mine are not going to Be on. I bet three of the four. Mine are not going to be on either of your lists.
- [36:54]
Osiris Host
I know one of mine isn't going to be on either of your lists.
- [36:58]
RJ
About to find out.
- [36:59]
Megan
Very curious to hear if anything goes on. All right, let's go to number two then. Okay, so down these kind of does a similar thing for the next couple of years and then something shifts. And it shifts around a point in time where Fish does this very cool thing that I don't know if they've really ever done since this point in their history where they bind a new sound to like pile up on this old sound. And it sounds brand new. I'm speaking of course of Millennium Fish and that like 1999 vibe. So the version I'm selecting for number two comes from this period. It has the same kind of building peak to kind of like weirdness structure. I was talking about the Wind Gin, but it does it in a much more melodic way, much more blissful way. A way that lands directly where the band was at at this point in their history. Kind of puts a stamp on a set of Fish that is about to unfold in a really anthemic and heroic way. And that is the Big cypress version from 1231, 1999, which emerges right out of Auld Lang Syne. You talk about the like, symbolism of this song that emerged as a song out of Auld Lang Syne six years prior. Here it is in all of its glory as the Big Fish jam vehicle. This song that has gone from this scronky, well, this like eight minute power punch rock like hit in the middle of a set to kind of a Scronky jam vehicle midway through the decade to this like giant funk monster in like 97 and 98. To hear airy, blissful. We're talking like Fish channeling the band spiritualized right now. We're talking the closest disease could sound to like a goose jam where it's basically built on like just like hovering groove and like Trey just playing beautiful melody after melody after melody. Like writing songs in the moment. And it just builds and builds and builds for like. It's what it's like 23 minutes long before Segwaying perfectly into Llama. I mean this is a jam that where this played in any other set. I think it's going to get a much greater recognition than it does even here. And I'm not saying it's super underrated. Like people love this, rightly love this song or this version, but this is a this, this to kick off seven Hours of music. You put this as like the start of a 90 minute fish set. And I think it's a completely different conversation for. For a lot of the fan base, I always go back to this. I think that it's just like super crisp, really beautiful, really uplifting, and it really showcases this versus the went version. The diversity of what the band could do in the late 90s in a period where the further and further we get from it, the more and more kind of same equalities. Like, you really hear how different this band was across a two and a half year period in time. Because this jam does not happen in summer 1997. So we get both the diversity of disease, but also like this. Holy crap. Like, this song can do this. It can sound this pretty, this airy. I'm super into it. I will pause, let you guys share your. Your feedback here.
- [40:55]
Osiris Host
I mean, I think it's no surprise that the band chose to kick off this set with this song. And that's what I was talking about in the beginning with them choosing to play this song at really important moments. I think leading off into this set, I can't even imagine what the band was feeling at that moment. It's just such an undertaking. And to start with disease, it just, it says everything you need to know about the song and how important it is to the band. I think this jam's amazing. It did not make my list because there are other millennial groove versions or one in particular that I like better. But obviously it's unbelievable and I understand why it's on your list. That's the hard thing is that even this is in an honorable mention for me. But even if you don't have, our lists could be so different because that's how many good versions there are. So it's fun.
- [41:48]
Megan
It's pretty endless. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:51]
RJ
I think, like, I think I'm the. You know, we don't have the responsibility of. Of really putting this into historical context in the same way that you do. So. Yeah, I think this was just dropped off my list as well. I think, like, you know, you can hear the fireworks. You. It's high octane. It's like. And then it gets into this, like, it's a very like a fun laid back groove at like, as they get, you know, further into it. It's a great way to set the pace for the set. Yeah, it's up there. It's definitely like top six, I guess, for me. But. But makes sense.
- [42:27]
Megan
We're in range.
- [42:29]
RJ
Yeah, makes sense to be on there. I think this was in the fan vote, which we'll get into later. But I just wanted you to. I just want to tell you and give you a preview that you are, you know, I think you're incorrect.
- [42:40]
Megan
Oh, no, that's not supposed to be.
- [42:44]
RJ
The last thing you want.
- [42:45]
Osiris Host
Brian's disappointed. Let's be honest.
- [42:48]
RJ
We got more disappointments coming, I think, for you. Okay, let's take a break real quick and then we'll get to Brian's second two versions.
- [42:59]
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- [44:28]
RJ
All right, Brian, where, where do we go next? We we have between after, after Big Cypress, we have what like there's like SE7 or 8 versions before we get to 3.3.0. There's some. There's some late 1.0 and then there's some 2.0 in there. And then we pick back up in. In 3.0 at. @ Hampton. So we kind of covered. We kind of COVID everything time wise. But where are you taking us next?
- [44:56]
Megan
Well, you know, I'm still a little sour over this piece of feedback from our first Rushmore episode where it was.
- [45:09]
Osiris Host
What is it?
- [45:10]
Megan
Well, it was. A listener called in and suggested that the Nassau Gin was selected because it's my favorite era of. Of fish.
- [45:19]
Osiris Host
Oh, right, right.
- [45:21]
Megan
And I bring this up because I had a very difficult decision to make here about 2.0 diseases. I think that it was one of the stronger jam vehicles of the era. I saw one of the greatest jams I'll ever see in my second show ever in 2.0. I love the way that the effects and like the griminess of Trey's tone during that period really complements Disease and like, turns it into this kind of like swamp creature type jam. You get a lot of really cool, like, 15 to 17 minute long versions throughout the era. You get it in, like, a lot of really interesting places and then you get these like big monster jams. But as I was listening through this whole list, I was considering disease. Like we talked about this earlier, the song represents so many eras of Fish that I really had to pick and choose here. And I ultimately opted for no 2.0 versions because none really stood out to me as being, you know, a placeholder for what this song means to Fish and said that kind of something extra about what. What a disease jam means to fish history. So, you know, we're not just picking stuff here because it's our favorite errors. Like the goal here. The goal here is to pick the best versions, which is what I'm trying to do, which I. I will return to the. The Nassau Gin is one of the four best versions. I'm sorry, don't agree with that. But, like, you know, this is not because it's my favorite era. There's no question. I'm just. I'm just putting it on the record here.
- [47:19]
Osiris Host
If anybody accuses you of not thinking this through and just doing it by your favorites, then they just don't know you at all.
- [47:25]
Megan
Sometimes you just have to say it. Just, you know, come up, come over and hang out with me when I'm. When I'm trying to put together these lists. We'll. We'll talk through. I'm sure you'll be super interested. So the next battle became, well, like I said earlier, 3.0, early 3.0 was very, very thin on Great jams. Disease was always a regular contributor, and it was there when in doubt. And one thing I'll just say kind of as an aside, I was struck. I had not listened to this version as much as I was really struck by how great the 3809 version is. I would highly recommend people check that out. I was there was not in consideration for my top four, but it is my honorable mentions because it's a legitimately great jam. From there, I went to 6311.
- [48:22]
Osiris Host
Great.
- [48:22]
Megan
Jam, you know, which is a beautiful jam. A very, very important jam in fish history. That was one of the. At some point we'll do like a. A A series. I don't know when, but on, like, the most important touch points between Hampton 09 and the your Face show, because there's a lot of, like, stuff that just has been totally forgotten. That was like, the most important thing that had ever happened in this band's history because it represented they were coming back. And that was one of those. Ultimately, that fell off because the next version that I selected kind of builds on the melodic interplay of the DTE version, the Pine Knob version, and it coalesces it into this kind of hose jamming that has always been essential for Fish and has always been kind of Fish at their best. They can experiment with the best of them. They can take chances and take risks. But there are these moments where the clouds part, everything comes together, and the band is creating a new song in the moment. And almost no place has this happened better than the Reading, Pennsylvania version from October 29, 2013. One of my favorite riffs in fish history is always stunning to me that especially at that era. Trey was able to lock in and throw this rift down that's like two and a half minutes long. Takes you in peaks and valleys. It's a motive, it's celebratory. It made us all think that they were covering Eat a Peach two nights later for Halloween. So it had that, like, big fish lore element to it. It kicks off an incredible set of fish history. So again, another one of those just like, boom, plant your flag. Like disease is taking us to the higher ground, if you will. I love this version. I'm gonna pause and let you guys share your thoughts here. 10, 29, 13, reading disease.
- [50:34]
Osiris Host
Yeah. This is our first alignment. This had to be on there for me. Had to be on there for me. This is maybe. And maybe this is wrong. I Might get in trouble for saying this, but to me, this is the most narrative jam out of all the down with the Z's. It flows from dark to light in just an absolutely seamless way. I think you spoke beautifully about it. The giant hose peak and then the not fade away vibes with like the organ in the end, it just sounds so rich and soulful. And this jam never really left my list. This was definitely on there from the beginning and, and stayed. And they did it in early 3.0. That's so cool.
- [51:14]
RJ
As you guys. As you guys know, I just finalized my list about an hour ago, so this, this was the last one to go on my list. I was thinking last night when I was listening to this and thinking about it. I've listened to this so many times and I, and I do think like the huge peak, you know, it's. It's dark, it's. It does follow that, that narrative of, of kind of like, you know, Peak 3.0 in a way where you, you start to get, you know, these jams that are. By 2015, they become almost predictable in, in terms of how the gems evolve. But this was, you know, this was at the beginning of that really. And I. And I wonder if it's slightly overrated. I put it on my top four, so I'm not, I don't overrate it, but the context of the Halloween lead up, this tour, this, this, you know, the, the online chatter about Fish had never been as big.
- [52:09]
Megan
Oh, God.
- [52:10]
RJ
I know. As it was in fall 2013, especially with lead up to Halloween. I mean, it was. Yeah, every show. And there were some, you know, like the Glens Falls show was like, not great. There were some shows that were not great, but every big jam was like, like broke the Internet over again, you know. So, like, this is the, the biggest of them and I think it deserves to be on the list. But I think I. It's. Yeah. I mean, you can't like, listen to this and not think like this is an Alzheimer. You know, it's just, it's just. It's got everything and it's. It's perfect. But I think the history piece is important too.
- [52:47]
Osiris Host
Absolutely.
- [52:48]
Megan
It's such a good point about the online chatter at that point. I think we probably talked about it during our fall 2013 episode. But like, that was the most fun I ever had online talking to people about Fish. It seemed like everybody was finally like. Like that Hampton show, Tahoe Tweezer had come earlier. Those Worcester shows, the Hartford one that came after, which was Killer. And then this like. It was this like build up where you just had the sense that Fish could do no wrong. And then they debuted Wingsuit and everyone went back to Aiden and the band.
- [53:18]
RJ
Yeah.
- [53:20]
Megan
It was like none of the goodwill mattered anymore. It was like there was no patience for them whatsoever.
- [53:28]
RJ
By the way, that Hampton tweezer is going on my Rushmore. You can just. Just put it on there now. Just put it on there.
- [53:34]
Megan
Oh, 100. Yeah, no, that's. That's without question, probably over. Because you, you and I are aligned on some things. Few things. That.
- [53:45]
RJ
That's one of them.
- [53:48]
Osiris Host
I went between a little bit of questioning if I should have the Clarkston the Pine nap one on instead just because of that gorgeous like Coltrane section. But I ultimately think this is the better jam. And I think you have to pick between one. Early 3.0, 3.0. Can't have two Rushmores. That's just ridiculous.
- [54:09]
RJ
Maybe.
- [54:09]
Osiris Host
I mean, maybe there's a song that's like really crusting then.
- [54:12]
RJ
No, but maybe. Maybe this particular song has. Has two. You never know. Depends.
- [54:16]
Osiris Host
That's true. That's true. We're not done yet. I'm just speaking ahead. Well, but there's no way because I. Well, I just feel like both of you love 4.0 too much that, that. I just don't think that's true. But we'll see.
- [54:30]
Megan
Well, it's a great transition because, you know, like I was saying about, like, like I'm just looking at our past versions, our past songs we've done here. So the latest gin was 22803. The latest hood was 817 97. The latest light was 1230, 18. The latest rock and roll was 7 12, 13. The latest MOMA dance was 812 22. And the latest nomen's was 4 hours, 23 minutes and 20 seconds. Now some of those songs like no man in no Man's Land and Light are obviously newer songs. They're going to have later versions. Moma Dance didn't really blossom as a regular jam vehicle until later in its career. But you know, when you consider Song of Disease, I would think we would all put that on level with Bathtub Gin and Harry hood. Those are two songs that very clearly peaked in the late 90s, early 2000s. Disease, like this version of disease was not like a. Holy shit, they finally played a great disease. Again, the way that we would act if they played a 22 minute long David Bowie. This is in a line of early 3.0, mid 3.0. Late 3.0 and 4.0 versions like this is one of the most this is probably the most consistent, long lasting Fish jam of all time. This is like the Yankees in the 20th century, just like you expect them to just compete and win type of thing. And so with that in mind, there were a lot of versions of Down with disease from late 3.0, two in particular that landed on my honorable mentions list. And in that as well, there are two versions from 4.0 that landed on my honorable mentions list. But of those, as I was going back and forth between those four jams plus one more, I kept asking myself, like, what is the point of Down With Disease at this point in fish's history? What does it offer? And I think what I came to the conclusion of is that it is one of those songs and that offers Fish a kind of connecting point between their past and their present. And sometimes those jams can be extremely solid and show highlights, but extremely solid. I'm thinking of 9, 3, 17, 8, 7, 18 and 8522 from Atlantic City, one of my favorite versions ever that dropped off my list very late. But in other instances, and there are two in particular that I went back and forth on through a song like Download Disease, which has so much historical weight in Fish history, you are hearing them start to experiment with new sounds, push themselves, test their own boundaries, and really impact the jamming of the modern era. And so I went back and forth between these two, and I ultimately landed on 7 16, 22 as my final Rushmore version. It was between this this is Lawrence.
- [57:51]
Lanahan
Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how each end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@rerangedpodcast.com.
- [58:56]
Megan
Osiris.