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- [00:03]
A
Osiris. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. But here we are once again to bring you some amazing fish conversation. This is hfpod. I'm rj. I'm here with Brian and Megan. Hey, guys.
- [00:25]
B
Hello.
- [00:26]
C
Hey, rj.
- [00:27]
A
How's everybody doing?
- [00:32]
B
I'm doing great, Doing great. I mean, we're in the middle of one of the best World Series maybe of our lifetime. I'm pretty pleased right now overall.
- [00:46]
C
Wow, that's a big statement.
- [00:49]
B
It's a big statement. We haven't seen the finish, so, like, it may end up, you know, terrible. The last two games may be awful, but, like, my God, we're just, we're in a good spot right now. Great spot right now.
- [01:02]
A
Great spot. Great spot. Even though our teams are out of it and been. Have been out of it for weeks at this point, it's still. Still exciting.
- [01:08]
C
But then who do you root for? Like, which teams are you rooting for?
- [01:12]
B
Well, I'm rooting for the Dodgers, but I like the Blue Jays. I like the Blue Jays the way that their team gets constructed. I love a lot of their pitchers. Their offense is amazing. So I'd be totally pleased with them winning. But, like, I'm going for the Dodgers here. I'm an NL guy. Shohei Ohtani is the Michael Jordan Babe Ruth of our time.
- [01:33]
C
You know, is he the one that's the no hitter? And then he got three home runs in one game.
- [01:38]
B
Not a no hitter. That will be even more intense. But he did strike out 10 players, 10 batters, and got three run, three home runs. So you knew that that's never been done before in baseball history. It was maybe the greatest performance in all of B. Yeah, there's been no pitchers who also hit on this.
- [01:58]
C
Well, that's what I was confused about. Yeah. I didn't realize that people did that. I thought they only pitched. I didn't realize.
- [02:04]
B
Extremely rare. Extremely rare. Like generationally, historically rare.
- [02:11]
C
So then he didn't pitch a no hitter, but he struck out 10.
- [02:14]
B
Struck out 10 hitters, 10 batters. And then he hit three home runs and helped to eliminate the suburban Chicago brewers from the playoffs and hopefully teach them a lesson that I think a lot of sports owners need to learn. That if you are a billionaire, you should spend money on your team or you should sell it and stop trying to convince the public that you are like some mom and pop shop owning a small market, hokey baseball team that just may have enough to compete this year.
- [02:47]
C
Come on, don't run it like a nail salon right Brian, that's it.
- [02:51]
B
Meg, you know exactly where I was going.
- [02:54]
A
Brian, you handle this so much more maturely than I do. Because the Dodgers knocked the Phillies out of the playoffs. So I'm like, I'm not cheering for the Dodgers. I don't care. What.
- [03:02]
C
Yeah, you gotta hold your grudge.
- [03:04]
A
Yeah, I have a grudge against them. It's. It's annoying and yeah, it is. But it has been an epic series.
- [03:11]
B
The only team I have a grudge against is the Houston Astros because they're a bunch of cheaters. After 2016, I've got no grudges. You know, I'm just. I'm just here just hanging out, just having fun. Just a vibe sky. That's all we are.
- [03:25]
C
Ever since. Ever since the summer in Boulder. You're a vibe sky now.
- [03:28]
B
That's it. That's it. Opting a new mantra.
- [03:33]
A
Okay, so we are going to talk about Fluff Head today. Definitely. A vibe song has nothing to do with composition. It's just about the. Just about the vibes. Who gives a shit about the changes? It's all about the energy.
- [03:45]
B
Everyone chanting for it. It did not give a shit about the changes. The only person who cared about the changes was Mike.
- [03:52]
A
This is the only song that I know of that has been shelved because of a very particular person saying that they don't want to play it anymore. So that's cool. It's got a unique. It's got a unique story.
- [04:02]
C
The song D songed. Is that what he said?
- [04:05]
B
Yeah, we don't know that one anymore.
- [04:08]
A
We had. We got some great reviews on Apple podcasts this week. Keep them coming, please. If you want to support what we're doing, you can go to osirispod.com premium and support us for like $5 a month and get ad free episodes. So think about that. We do have a ton of awesome voicemails. We are going to get to them. We are going to do another mailbag episode soon. Maybe within the next couple weeks. We need to figure that out. But keep the voicemails coming. I am listening to all of them. They're great. We are keeping on track here to go straight into our Fluff Head discussion because we have another podcast right after this where we are going to be talking about the book the Shining and the movie the Shining. As you notice, I call them books and movies, not films and novels. But it's because I'm from. Because I'm from Ohio. I went to public school, people. So we just call them movies. Where I'm From.
- [05:01]
C
It's Spooky Season. We're doing it right this week.
- [05:05]
B
This is our first truly themed.
- [05:08]
A
I refuse to say that phrase, Meg. So I was just going to let you say it. Thank you.
- [05:12]
C
I love it. I don't know why you don't like it. It's too, like, juvenile. Come on, you went to public school. You live in Ohio.
- [05:19]
A
Yeah. You get your ass kicked for saying spooky Season.
- [05:22]
B
I feel like it's one of those juvenile things that, like, people in their 30s and 40s have adopted as, like, hey, it's okay for me to speak this way. And it's not.
- [05:30]
A
It's not.
- [05:31]
B
You're not nine years old. Come on.
- [05:33]
C
I'm sorry. I'm around nine year olds all day, so it's my fault.
- [05:37]
B
Okay.
- [05:37]
C
This is weird. I try not to say much of what they say, but I do kind of get into that. I'm into Spooky Season. Sorry.
- [05:45]
A
It's okay.
- [05:46]
C
Do me.
- [05:47]
A
We won't have a crash out over it here. We will go. We will go straight into it. It's going to be. It's going to be a fun episode. We are going to actually, Brian, do you want to. Should we wait until the end of the episode to talk about what the next couple episodes look like? Or do we want to preview anything? Or do we want to just get straight into Fluff Head?
- [06:04]
B
Yeah, I'll preview the month. We got quite a bit going on here. We've got a couple unique episodes coming up next week. We are talking about a wave of hope that will be our next Mount Rushmore. So we're coming back with some new notable 4.0 Mount Rushmore chatter here next week. Following that, I need to update our schedule here. My goodness. We will have the week of November 10th. We are going to have the great Rob Mitchum on the podcast to talk about his ongoing series he's been writing. I've been reading his Fish history blog since the mid 2010s, but he got it going in earnest on a daily basis in, I believe the fall of 2019, where he committed to writing about every fish show from fall 20, excuse me, fall 94 through the end of 1.0 on its 25th anniversary. Fascinating series. Every single show from there on. We're going to dive deep into kind of his thoughts on the latter part of the 90s with fish. Some of the themes he unearthed in the final two years of 1.0 fish. His thoughts as he goes into 2.0 fish, which I'm extremely excited to hear because, man, the jamming in 2.0 is like Rob Mitchum jamming. But Rob Mitchum was not there for 2.0 and is kind of refused to listen to 2.0 until he can dedicate the time to this project. So we'll talk a little bit about that other music. We'll probably get into some like favorite albums of the year type of thing. It'll be a great conversation. And then the following week we are going to have Mike Ayers on, who just released the book the Oral history Sharing in the Groove, which looks at jam bands in the 1990s, the rise of the scene, the big bands and what they did from a promotional standpoint and a DIY standpoint to really push beyond the confines of record label support, radio support or lack thereof, where there were successes, where there were challenges and kind of the through lines throughout. I'm 30 pages from the end of that. It's been a really informative and exciting read that has gotten me listening to a ton of Panic, a ton of Mo, a ton of wides, a ton of Modeski, Martin Wood, even a little Blues Traveler. Just out of curiosity, just to like.
- [08:42]
C
Refresh my ears, early 90s, mid-90s vibes.
- [08:49]
B
So we'll have that. And then rounding out the month, RJ's selected Rushmore. We will all be selecting it, but RJ said we have to do this before the end of our first year. That will be Possum. We will do so. So today's fluff head, next week's Wave of Hope end of November is Possum as we round out the first year of our Mount Rushmore series. So a lot of cool stuff coming up. I'm pretty excited about these conversations.
- [09:17]
A
Thank you. Brian and I will just add for next week. We're going to when we do the Wave of Hope Rushmore, we're going to have the guy, we're going to have Brian Murray from Dogs in a Pylon for a little bit and we're going to talk to the guys from the Phoenix Presents, the people who put on the Music on the Mountain, the fundraiser for the Divided sky foundation up in Vermont. So they're going to talk to us about what they're up to. They're going to do more. I don't think I'm allowed to say this. They're going to do more events including actually, yeah, there's a couple in December that are on sale already, but they're expanding it beyond just the one that's in Vermont. So they're going to Come on and talk to us about their, their love of fish. And also raising money for the Divided Sky Foundation. And Brian, if you haven't listened to Dogs in a Pile, we can, we can send some. Some stuff out there for you to listen to. But Brian's great. He's a. He's a friend, so it's gonna be fun.
- [10:04]
C
Yeah. Okay, you want to send me some. I'll post some dogs in a pile on our socials that people.
- [10:08]
A
Okay, I will do that. Also, due to a, An. An. An urgent meeting that we just had, we are going to. We're going to do our shining book and movie discussion on this stream. So we're not going to end the stream. We're just going to keep it going here so we don't have to leave the waiting room. We don't have to send out links to people. So you guys just stick around. We'll be here for the next, what, one hour and 44 minutes, if anyone's keeping count. Okay. Fluff Head, what is this song all about? Megan, what's the deal?
- [10:43]
C
Fluff Head is the quintessential Fish song. One of them for sure. To me, it's like Reba Harryhood. It just defines that prog rock complex composition style that Trey was writing in the early years and is the kind of song that only Fish could write and perform. Fluffhead debuted with fish on December 1, 1984 at Nectar's with the dude of life singing vocals. And the dude wrote the three intro verses about his brother who was dying of cancer. And the song contained in the introductory Fluff Head section and the arrival sections. And part of what was called Fluff's Travels appears on the white tape in 1986. And the song appears as Fluff Head and Fluff's Travels on Junta. And the song is really thought broken up into segments. And the first part is the song segment with the lyrics that the dude wrote. And then there's Fluff's Travels, which is an 11 minute composition that has six parts. And these two parts were combined in 1987 to the song that we know today. So some of these segments were played live as parts of other songs. But around February 1988 is when all the sections found their way into what we call Fluffhead today. To complicate things a little bit further, the band continued to play segments of the composition live outside Fluffhead proper. But really from 1988 on is when it really cements as the song Fluffhead. And what's interesting is from 1987 to 1994, the song was played an average of 23 times a year. And shout out to all the tapers. So we have tapes of these early shows because it is so important to listen to these early versions of the song. And what's cool is by 1993 you can really hear the mastery and the way the band is in front of the notes instead of chasing them. And by the late 90s, it starts being played less. It goes down to single digits. So it averages between five and six times a year from 95 to 2000. I think the tight composition was really challenging for their band. And there's perhaps a lack of practice, I would imagine. And just their interest in jamming and improv really affected their ability to play the composition well. Obviously notably never played in 2.0. Like Brian mentioned earlier. Mike says no during the Fluff Head chant at it in 2003. And of course it has this triumphant and emotional opening at the reunion shows in Hampton 2009. It opened the show that night for the first time in 18 years and only the fifth time ever. And it was a real statement that the band was back and committed to playing their hardest songs. And it was played an average of a few times a year throughout 3.0, but there was an 18 month gap, 2014-15, without a fluff Head performance. What's amazing though, to me is that in 4.0, the song is only played a few times a year. But I think that's often because there's so much competition for songs to be played now with the repertoire being so large. But it is a real renaissance for Fluff Head. It is played so well now and it has the tightness that we love about 4.0. And it was surprising for me to see those numbers that it's only played a few times a year because I feel like I kind of hear it a lot live. But it's only played a few times a year now, but played so well. And Brian curated a list of 19 versions. And then we added on the Junta version of Fluffhead and Fluff's travels to our list of best versions. And there are three versions on live bait, volume five, 17 and 19.
- [14:10]
A
Those are crucial additions. Those Live Bait additions really made.
- [14:15]
C
Yeah, yeah, you have to.
- [14:16]
A
Have to do it. Had to do it. Thanks, Meg, for that one. One thing I wanted to say, and I'm sorry to take us back because I. I wrote a note about this and then I forgot. So, Brian, if you want to, you know, say anything about Fluff Head Besides where we're going with the, with the Mount Rushmore, you're, you're free to do so after I say that. We really loved getting all the feedback on our drafts that we did last week. And some people told us that we did an amazing job and some people told us that we were horrible idiots. And you know, this is the, this is the lesson for giving free content to people for decades. But, but I do think we had fun doing it and we will look at those comments. I don't know. We're not gonna like, change anything, but I think we, we all looked at the comments and kind of had some, had some thoughts. I had one regret of a show that I wish I had draft. We probably all have one. I think we, but I think we want to do more drafts like that Brian has no regrets, just like I.
- [15:10]
C
Have one that I might have changed Tim Riggins.
- [15:12]
A
No regrets, but I think in general did my research.
- [15:15]
B
I delivered it the way I wanted to deliver it. I got some shows in there that needed to be in there. I got the big ones. I feel really good. I think we did a good job. I think it's a challenging project. I think that similar to the Tweezer draft, it is a well that we can go back to and we can do our 26 to 50 list and then our 51 to 75, like we can start to build this out to. It makes sense. You know, we're going to probably do another tweezer draft in 2026. The stuff that we picked is not going to be available. Some of these drafts just require multiple listens to anyone out there saying that we're idiots and that we don't know what we're talking about and why would we put that list out? Hey, man, I, I, I look forward to your, you know, 500 episode podcast that breaks down. This band in competition with ours, spends all the time researching, you know, developing the level of confidence knowledge that requires to deliver this information to people and we can talk then, you know.
- [16:18]
C
Yeah, exactly. I also think that, you know, our intention was to put out 25 shows for 25 years. And so people nitpicking about what we called it or what we do or do not know how to add seems really kind of sad to me because what we're doing is making a list that was really hard to make and also really fun to make and was really just about getting people talking and talking about shows and thinking about this band that we love. So thank you for those of you that engaged with it. In that way. And if you have problems with it, like Brian said, you can make your own. You can do your own podcast and your own list. I would love to see it. I haven't seen any press.
- [16:53]
B
Shit, all press is good press. So I'm just happy they're chattering. I'm happy they're talking. Let's just, you know, let's have an actual conversation about it.
- [17:01]
A
Yeah, let's do it. All right, well, how many? Yeah, okay. I think. I think we have a. I think we're at about a thousand episodes. So go get to, like, a couple hundred. And then, you know, we just got.
- [17:14]
B
To give a shout out here. Tyler Riggs is doing an amazing job, sitting in as the troll of today's episode, saying that Vegas04 being left off of our list is a travesty. If I could be a little sincere for a second, if this was the top 25 shows that meant the most to me in the last 25 years, you can absolutely guarantee that night two of Vegas04 will be on my list. That is one of the most meaningful evenings of my entire life. It changed me in really dramatic ways. And I still ride for that show, even though when I listen back to it, I cringe half the time because I know what went on in that room. And unless you were there, you don't know what went on in that room, man. And that's all that matters.
- [18:00]
C
Oh, my God. We gotta cut that and put that out of context for Brian. If you were in the room, you don't know what was going on, and.
- [18:08]
B
Then measure it against my tone that's sarcastic versus my tone that's actually sincere.
- [18:12]
C
It's true.
- [18:13]
A
I. We don't have time. This is going to be such a diversion. But I just got to say, Brian, I think I probably have told you this, but the first Night of Vegas 04, my. My. One of my friends, I had to go and sit on the stairs outside the Thomas and Max center for, like, 15 minutes because I just had, like. It was just too much. One of my buddies left, and we called him during set break. We were like, where are you? He was in his closet at home. He lived in Vegas, so he was in his closet. And he was like, I can't. Like, I can't leave my closet. He was at the show, and then he ended up in his closet. And then two hours later, after the show, we called him. We were like, where are you? He was in CVS trying on sunglasses.
- [18:46]
C
So, you know, it's amazing.
- [18:49]
B
Can I just Add on to that, because probably told this story here, whatever. We definitely bought mushroom chocolates from like a 12 year old girl out of her backpack. Like very, very short. And a friend of mine ate one and he kind of lost his mind midway through the first set and he decided that he needed to eat a cigarette to determine if he was still himself or not.
- [19:12]
C
This is the craziest thing ever.
- [19:15]
B
And he, he decided that if he threw up that he was still himself, but if he enjoyed it, he had lost his mind. And it went down, right down the hatch. And he just kept on dancing. He was like, I'm lost, I'm gone. And you know, it was a good time.
- [19:30]
A
God, that's fantastic. All right, good. Okay, so with that, with all that being said, should we just get into the.
- [19:36]
B
The first pick here after talking about Vegas04, it's a perfect time to talk about the most difficult composition in Fish's catalog.
- [19:44]
A
Yeah, exactly. This is. Yeah, it really is. And you know, as. As with all of our, our choices, we did not take this lightly. Took a lot of debate and, and conversation, but a lot of anger in the text thread. You know, a lot of anger.
- [20:02]
B
Really, really. Like, I mean, Megan defending Claude versions and being like, this is the best Claude ever. I. I've never seen her so passionate.
- [20:12]
C
It's true.
- [20:13]
A
Never. It's true. It's true. Megan, why don't you tell us what our first. Our first choice is?
- [20:19]
C
Okay, I'd love to. This is a choice that I advocated for being on the list because I was going back to listen to our list that we put together and I stopped after my first one and I said, I want to go back and hear the Junta version again because I've always loved this version. And to me this is such a special version. And I've always felt it was kind of the closest that Trey ever really wanted this song to be, to like how he felt when he wrote it. And it's. The acoustic guitar is so warm and there's something that makes it seem so special. And the piano is incredible. And you've got that Zappa style singing from Trey and the things that I love and my favorite versions of Fluff Head and what I want from a Fluff Head is an absolutely perfectly played composition. And it is so challenging, but it really, when they nail it and they're on top of it as opposed to chasing it, it's just so special and it feels so tight and crisp and then want a really emotional payoff at the end that Trey solo to just come up, and I want it to just build and give me goosebumps and give me all the, you know, Harryhood style feels. And there's something really refreshing about the peak in this Fluff Head on Junta. It has a bunch of people in it. It has that audience feel, which I think is what I fall in love with about Fish. That makes Fish so special, is their connection to the audience. And there's just such a joyful energy behind this peak.
- [21:51]
B
And.
- [21:51]
C
And then the acoustic outro. What would happen if Trey just picked up the acoustic guitar and started playing the acoustic outro in Fluff Head on stage? People would lose their minds. That would have made Mondegreen Day 4 Unbelievable, even though they'd already played Fluff Head. But anyway, this is a special version, and I really appreciate that you guys were on board for having this on our list. It's, to me, the kind of quintessential studio Fish, too. I don't know if Fish has ever done this studio better than this song.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I think, like, it also just takes such serious, like, confidence or delusion or whatever to put a song like that, like, on your debut album. I mean, I know they weren't, like, going to major labels at the time, but, like, just to, like, do that, to pull it off is. Is awesome. But, yeah, it's a really. It's a serious jam. It's like a serious jam and a serious composition on an album. Yeah.
- [22:53]
B
Yeah. I think that when this was brought up, we weighed, you know, are we just doing live versions? Because I think we flirted with this idea that we could include studio versions. In recent weeks, as we've been talking about updates to the series, and I think it just made sense here. I don't. There's maybe one or two other versions or other. Two other songs that it would make sense with a Rushmore pick being from a studio album, but it absolutely makes sense here. The recording is really pristine. It's really warm. The way that they utilize the studio. There's like, a xylophone in the middle of the fluffs travels. There's weird effects. There's noises, especially at the end during the peak. There's so many voices and so much, like, brewing up. It honestly sounds. Meg, you said this is one of their best studio cuts ever, I think. Or maybe best, like. I think it possibly is like, this, to me, feels almost like a road less traveled for the band, where they really take a song and really figure out how it should sound in the studio, what instrumentation needs to Be used where things need to be accentuated, where, like, you know, there needs to be like seven layers of voices or a couple different layers of music. Like, it just. It. It sounds like a band that has figured out how to take their sound and turn it into a studio production. It's unbelievable. I was listening to it last night. It also has this thing that a lot of the live versions we're going to talk about, one that has this. But even there, I think it really showcases how difficult the song is, because you can just imagine this band doing retakes, overdubs, and understanding, like, how tight certain changes need to be and how things need to fade in, fade out in a way that I think is almost impossible to do live. And so you get this just, like, real sense of living inside of the composition and the way the composition is supposed to make you feel. That for as amazing as these live versions we're going to talk about are, it's really hard to replicate that outside of the studio. So. So this. This is just like. This sets the foundation for what this song. And in a lot of ways, when I listen to it, I mean, it of course made me think of how just amazing Junta is as an album, but, you know, it really sounds like that pure version of Fish that as they would change, as they would evolve, as their goals would change, we get further and further away from this. But this is, you know, these are the origins of the who this band is.
- [25:40]
A
So I. I think that was a great addition to the list, Megan, so thanks for that. There's. There's. Now, Brian. We. We went through a bunch of. I mean, I think a lot of people when they think about this song, we had a little bit of a back and forth about this on the. On our text chain, but when you think about the song, there's obviously what you just said, like describing, you know, the composition, and then there's like, the live, you know, experience of it. And then there's like the. The rare versions where it really goes off, off the beaten path and is a type 2 jam after the. The composed part. And I think we're gonna.
- [26:15]
B
You know, we.
- [26:15]
A
We have. We have at least we have some of those. But in terms of these early 90s versions where, you know, we. We have what, probably six or seven before we get into 99, that we. Maybe 10 that we listen to before, between, like, 89 and 99. So I listened to all those and I didn't hear, like, a ton of difference. I mean, there was. There were like, little things like there's like, a little more of the, like, little pulsing guitar thing during the clod section. Or Mike would be, like, a little more prominent, or you could hear Paige's piano more. But, like. But the jam, like, the compositions are kind of the same, and then the endings are just building to that peak, and then the endings are all kind of the same. So when you listen to, like, those, I don't know, 10 versions from the early 90s, which is probably what everyone who has listened to them for a long time and collected tapes and listened to those early shows would recognize as, like, what they heard as a, you know, early to mid-90s fluff head. Like, what would you. What were you listening for? And. And how did you. How do you think we landed on the one that we chose, like, from that kind of era of the. The well played, tightly, you know, executed fluff heads.
- [27:23]
B
Yeah. And I think to your point, this all makes sense as we unveil the list. But there is kind of this journey that Fluffhead has gone on since its origins is one of the earliest Fish songs. And then a song that the band noticeably, famously stepped back from for a variety of reasons, which we'll talk about. Part of what makes Fluff Head so special is that it is a snapshot when you listen to these kind of early to mid-90s versions, and I would say probably go from 93 to 96 as kind of this window of the band where their gear was suddenly in top order. They're playing in large rooms where the songs are being really broadcast at a volume and an intensity to reach every person in the room, which really sounds like modern Fish, even when it's 30, 35 years ago. And then the band as well, from a show structure standpoint, were just simply a different band than they are today. The goal wasn't necessarily to jam out of their songs. It was to showcase what their songs could be in a structural sense, be it the first set, second set, to raise energy, to showcase dynamics, to showcase different styles of music, to showcase humor. And Fluff Head was one of those songs that, when it was shown, it was almost. If you listen to a lot of 92, 93, 94, even 95, 96 shows, the showcase of those shows sometimes is not necessarily a type 2 jam. It's, holy crap, we just got a pristine version of Fluffit. And so within that window, 92 to 96, we wanted to highlight a version that we felt really, really showcases this band that night after night is getting on stage and playing very, very difficult Compositions in a way that is engaging listeners in a manner that you're not finding anywhere else. Quick shout out to Sharon in the Groove, which I'm just about to finish. One of the big things they talk about is this dilemma that labels had over these bands where they could see that these bands were selling out venues night after night after night and growing their fan bases, and particularly Fish. But none of these songs like Fluff Head, you're never going to put out as a single. Even if it's one of the best Fish songs and one of the most representative Fish songs to who the band is, you're never going to put this out as a single. So this band is doing this thing that is completely against the grain of what is, you know, expected in modern rock in the 90s. So within that we had three versions we really zeroed in on and we decided on one. The three that we were looking at. I'll just highlight kind of the work behind the scenes were 220.93 from the Roxy, 52694 from the Warfield in San Francisco, and 111195 from the Fox, which. And I know that there's apparently some issues with the tapes from the Fox, but if we can get a Fox box set, a couple of us really happy Fox 95 box set, like I would. I'd go and buy that immediately. And you know, most of my music is streamed, so like getting me into a store to physically buy a copy of it. Come on now. Anyway, we ultimately landed on to 2093. And the reason why I thought this was the right version is 1993 is kind of this go between of. There's still kind of these collegiate prankster. You don't know about this band, literally, other than word of mouth. I guess they've done an MTV interview at this point in time. But like you really don't know about this band other than word of mouth. And they are still living and breathing in these songs. Whereas when I listen to the 52694 and 111195 versions, I hear a band that is evolving and changing more rapidly than they were in early 1993. That said, there are moments in this like the. The. The feedback that Trey implements through many of the changes that showcase this band starting to mess around with the compositions while still delivering note for note, change for change, everything that you are looking for within these compositions. So while I think all three of these versions could have a this table, we ultimately landed on 220 93. Very famous show, obviously the Roxy in Atlanta, but a version that, when you listen to this, this could be essentially a stand in for the way the band attacked compositions and attacked ideas in the early 90s.
- [32:22]
C
I don't know if this is crazy to say, but I think that this version to 2093 is the most perfect classic live version of Fluff Head ever. It doesn't have a single. Not even like a hint at a mistake. It's so tight and it is so on top of the comp. Like, they are ahead of every beat and they just nail every single moment of this. Of this song. And Trey's solo on the peak, the minute it rips out, it's just like every time I listen to it just goosebumps up and down my arm. It's total 93 crispness and mastery. And Paige has got his new baby grand. And he's just going at it like he sounds unbelievable in the clod and he's so soulful in that section. And I just feel like. I think what you said. I totally agree that the 94 and 95 versions, you can feel them pulling at it, like, distorting things and stretching it out. And that's what's so exciting about 94 and 95. And it's thrilling to listen to those versions. I mean, that 11, 1195 version will. Just. The authority that Trey's playing with is unbelievable. And I love the 94 version, also a perfect version. But there's something that's so. I feel like if you have to have. You have to have a live version of Fluff Head that's just completely clean and perfect and captures that early essence of that hungry band that nailed these compositions so perfectly.
- [33:54]
A
So I. I just want to say that. Well, there's a couple things going on here. First of all, I think I agree with both of you, and I think if you. You could make the argument for the 93 version, you could make the argument for 5.26.94, 11.11.95, or. Or the Clifford Ball, really. I think they're all similar in that they all represent what that year sounded like, you know, like they all have just a little bit of that year. I do think that 93 version, you know, I think everyone knows just a couple weeks before this, the Roxy shows is when Paige first got the piano on stage. So, you know, that was like a pretty new addition to the. To the live setup, and it just added so much to the sound and it was louder. And I think. I think that sticks out a lot more like the.
- [34:37]
B
The.
- [34:37]
A
Those other Versions are, are great. Also, there's some chatter in the, in the chat about whether this is the, the most difficult Fish song to play technically. I just texted Scott, who's in Reprise, that he plays keyboards and Reprise. He said in his opinion, it is, it is the hardest. It's ice. And I know that one thing that I've watched them practice a lot. So it's ice, which is extremely hard. But the ass festival part of Cula Papyrus is like really for four people at once. I think that's part of it is for all four of them. That's why Fluff Head is like. And you guys, you know, just listen to the album version or any of them. All four of them are doing different things for 14 minutes or whatever. I mean, it's just, it's total madness. So at least, at least in Scott's opinion, it's ice. Fluffs travels in that part of Kula. Okay, so we have two 2093 on the board. We should maybe we'll take a quick break and then we'll come back and we're gonna do the big reveal for the last two. So stick around. We'll be right there.
- [35:46]
D
This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arranged to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@rerangedpodcast.com.
- [36:52]
A
Osiris all right, guys, so those of you who are watching live, don't forget we're going to go straight into the. We're going to straight into the library card episode right after this. So just, just hang out. You know, just put us on in the background while you cook dinner or do whatever. We're here, we're family friendly. Today we are.
- [37:14]
C
Okay.
- [37:15]
B
We're not making you guys change any places, any of that. Can I address one comment in the chat Just because I don't. I don't want William Welsh to lose his. His brain. First and foremost, I want to introduce him to a great resource called fish.net but secondly, I want to just note that there were no versions of Fluff Head played at Hampton in the late 90s. However, I think the version he is thinking of that is a little extended, a little sloppy at times and telling of where the band was going with Fluffead in the late 90s is the version from 112397 from Winston Salem, which is on the Hampton box set. So that's possibly where any sort of confusion comes in. But if you're thinking of a different version, let us know. But that is. You don't have to ask Rock for this. We don't want you to have to do that.
- [38:15]
C
I also want to shout out the Clifford Ball version that you brought up, rj, because there's something special about festival Fluff Heads. And I noticed that when I was listening. There's just something special about being in that big of a space with the band and then playing Fluff Head. So I think there's those moments hit extra hard and sound really awesome on tape too because the crowd is just so absolutely pumped. That's a great version though. It's pretty flawless.
- [38:39]
B
I also went into this re listen in my head. I try to make a list before I actually listen of what I think is going to make my top four. And this was on my. I think this will make my top four. Yeah, it's a little bit rough around the edges compared to this. And it doesn't have something that we are going to talk about here with our final two versions. Hint, hint, hint. That said, whenever we do the best second sets draft, you can guarantee that one of us will take that because that second set, just watch the video of that. The woman that's dancing on the streamer on the ropes. Ben and Jerry coming out during Brother. The energy as Trey looks around as they do like six different set closers in a row and he's just counting off Gula and his like beard is like down like meeting with his chest hair. He just. He looks amazing during that show. And yeah, that version is a ton of fun. I. I felt like we had to give a little bit more of a nod to the precision of a version like 220.93.
- [39:44]
C
Yeah, agreed.
- [39:47]
A
Okay, so also the. Where was that comment here? Tyler Riggs just said, listen to Trey's interview with Corey Wong today. So Trey was interviewed on Corey Wong's podcast Which is called Wong Notes from Premier Guitar. And it was talking about. Trey was talking about the compositions being designed for all members to align in harmony on each note. It's pretty cool. So check out that interview. Okay, so the next version is. We're going to. I guess, one of my perspectives. I think we all agree on this, but, you know, if you're gonna. If someone's gonna be like, what's a. What's a great version of Fluffhead to listen to? We'd probably say maybe something like 220 93, if you really want to hear, you know, perfect composition, perfect execution. But I might say, well, you should check out this one that goes, like, totally off the rails and has a complete crazy jam that goes into all these wild places and becomes, like, an amazing piece of improv. So that's. That was our next choice here, which we can. We can all talk about. But I'll just start by saying that the. This version, even the intro to, like, the introductory chords are, like, a little bit spacey. You know, it's like a slightly slower tempo. And the outro of the 72499 version kind of melting into this perfect summer 99 droning jam is just so awesome. And I think this one probably was, like, all of our first choices, right? I mean, this is like Mike. Mike's driving this jam after the outro, and then Trey hops in, and it just has this, you know, of course, just like Most of these summer 99 pieces of improv, there's like a little bit of that space swirling, echoing, droning, and it just. Trey jumps in after Mike, kind of drives the jam for a while, and it gets totally weird and out there and just turns into. I think it's like 32 minutes or something. Yeah, just an amazing piece of improv. Like, an amazing jam, period. Should be, like. Like, on everyone's list. But. But in terms of fluff head, like, the composition itself, I think is well played. And It's. It's summer 99, so, you know, it's crazy and hot and weird and, you know, way out in outer space, but also just. The jam is just phenomenal.
- [42:06]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is not a pristine version by any means. This is one of my. I mean, 7, 24, 99. This is one of my favorite shows to simply just look at the set list. I know that, like, people are like, oh, show on, like, set list. On paper, it doesn't matter. It's all the music. Like, man, sometimes Fish plays a set list that, like, is just so Much fun to just look at and see like what they did. And this is one of those shows. It's totally bizarre. You open with two compositions. One of them happens to go into a 15 minute long jam that makes it a 30 minute version version. You get a ton of weird bust outs. Some sick at this stuff. Trey falling over at the end of the second set. A four song encore of all bust outs. This is kinda when you think about like the various turns that happen post fall 97, where the wheels start to fall off a little bit, the exhaustion is there, the rock star lifestyle is taking over, but they're still making brilliant music. This version is kind of one of those moments you can look at. And this show is kind of one of those turning point shows. I think ultimately though, when we think about Fluffhead, for a long time this was looked at as almost like the beginning of the end for fluffhead because for 10 years they're not going to play this song and it's just not going to be a part of the rotation until they come back in Hampton and reinvent themselves again. But I think one of the interesting things about this is Fluff Head is kind of taken on this life of its own in 3.0, 4.0 and especially recently as it's become a relatively regular jam vehicle, that there are ideas that come out of this song that I don't think anybody would have predicted or expected pre 7, 2499. So this feels like a really important statement, even if the band wasn't planning anything. But you know, you think 25 years into the future, a song like Fluffhead is now one of the old reliables. It brought Fish back from the brink and it ultimately has showcased that anything can be jammed at any place during any show. Which is one of the more exciting aspects of Fish, you know, nowadays. And a lot of that starts with a jam like this.
- [44:44]
C
I think that's what's really interesting about this version is that it's. It doesn't kind of adhere to what the song really is. It's, you know, it's. It is looser, it's super chill. It has this like lackadaisical millennial sound to it. But it also, like you said, Brian, kind of sets the stage for what Fish will become, which is we can take any song and do whatever we want with it. And this was one of those first versions where you take a song that is about a tight composition and you just apply your own style to it and this, or, excuse me, their own style of where they were at that moment. Right. So they're taking a song that defined their early years and was tight and crisp and about composition and very, very planned out, very structured, and they're really just pulling that apart here. And I love it. It's so gauzy. I listened to it on the walk to work today, and it's just so laid. Nowhere to go, nowhere to be. You can just hear Big Cypress in the future in this. It's dark, quirky at points. It's just. I love how of the moment it is. It really defines who fish was in 1999. And I think anytime you have a version of a song that does that, it's awesome. You know, when they can take a song and apply their sound to it in a way that's really definitive of that era is great. I felt like it had to be on here. Even though it kind of defies what the song really is.
- [46:09]
B
Is.
- [46:09]
C
It's cool.
- [46:11]
A
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's got a. It's just. Has something totally, totally different. Um, I was just thinking when you were talking about Trey, it's. It's amazing for all the years of. Of serious partying that they went through, that none of them really had very many embarrassing moments on stage. You know, they were like. They really kept it pretty professionally. I mean, oh, four is a little different, but like, they were clearly. They were having huge parties backstage for years and years and years. And like, like, of course some of the, like, compositions suffered or whatever, but, like, you know, there weren't a lot of, like, embarrassing moments, which is, like, kind of amazing at this point.
- [46:46]
C
No, and even in their, like, worst years, you can still find amazing shows. You know, they were still having transcendent moments, even though I think that's just their talent and the amount of they played together. I think when you do anything that much, even if you're fucking around while you're doing it, you can do really well. I mean, it's. Right we're going to be talking about this when we talk about the Shining and Stephen King and his writing of it, but, you know, a lot of artists can do a lot of things when they're pretty fucked up. It's pretty crazy. Sorry, I forgot we're family friendly today.
- [47:15]
A
Yep. It's okay.
- [47:17]
B
I think.
- [47:18]
A
Yeah, go ahead, Brian.
- [47:19]
B
I was going to say 7 hours, 27 minutes and 3 seconds. Raleigh is like the only moment I can really think of where everything spilled out on stage and there was a lot of animosity. And what is 7 hours, 27 minutes and 3 seconds. Followed up by the five show run from 729 to 8 3. That is like brilliant fish. So like they were. They were balancing. It is wild to think, like the parties. If you look at set list times and like set times from especially the late 90s, you've got these like 58 minute sets followed by like an hour 15 seconds set to like, try to make up for it. But like they were just ready to get back and hang out with the crew behind the stage. But yeah, like, there were so many moments where they were still able to come to the table. And I think that Fluff Head really shows it. Like, this is a song that they ultimately decided was kind of representative of where things had gone wrong. And yet this is a version that 23 years later, I forget what year this Live Bait came out, but they remastered it, put it out as a studio soundboard cut for all their fans to listen to because they kind of recognize even amidst all the darkness, there were these brilliant moments.
- [48:35]
C
Yeah, I'm so glad we have this. It would be really sad if we didn't have this on archival release.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. This is the one of The Live Bait 5, I think is what it's on. That's on, right?
- [48:48]
C
It is.
- [48:49]
B
No, this is.
- [48:50]
C
It's on Live Bait 1919.
- [48:53]
A
Oh, there's one. There's one that's on Live Bait 5, maybe.
- [48:56]
C
Yes. That's 8:17. That's Clifford Balls.
- [48:58]
A
Oh, that's Clifford Ball.
- [48:59]
B
Okay.
- [49:00]
A
Okay, so who wants to bring us home here with the last version?
- [49:05]
B
I feel like I kind of need to for obvious reasons. So we were talking about like the arc of Fluff Head and there were a few versions for me. Well, there's one version for me in the modern era that seemed to be a stand in for Fluff Head as a pure song. And that was the 3609 version. But I ultimately stepped back from that based on our conversations of look, as great as Fluff Head has been in the 3.0, 4.0 era, as just a strict composition compared to where it was in the late 90s, I think we would be lying to ourselves if we said that there were any. That compared to what we heard in the mid. Like, if you're looking for a pure version of fluff head, the mid-90s are where you go without question. And I don't really think that it's worthwhile to have one of those versions compete with those. So then we started thinking about, well, where is Fluff Head today? And many of the versions of Fluffhead that are played in the 4.0 modern era are jammed out that they're 20 plus minutes. Nashville 21 was kind of this reemergence of the jamming ethos in Fluff head. The last four or five minutes are very, very cool. Chula 21 is a fantastic version that really. That opens the show, jams into NICU and really sets up a really cool, fluid show. And then there were great versions from MSG22, Dix23, a bunch of others, but there's one that is spiritually tied to the one we just talked about in a lot of ways and really showcases that modern Fish can kind of meet the Junta version of Fish in a really memorable way where they're able to deliver tight, like enthusiastic, kind of thrilling, theatrical versions of their compositions, but then in a second transition and have the dexterity and the freedom and the creativity to just see where these songs go. And we listened through a lot of these versions, a lot of these damn heavy fluff heads from the 4.0 era. And then when we kept coming back to Was, and I can't believe we're about to have the second Rushmore version from this run. I'm going to get just creamed in so many of my text threads for doing this. But you know what? You got to be honest with people. You got to be honest with yourself. 8 13, 20, 22, Alpine Valley 2022. The dreaded Alpine 2022 run as its second Rushmore version. We had MOMA dance from 812. We have Fluff Head from 8 13. Maybe we'll have. We might have the Broken heart attack from 8:14 when we get there. You know, probably the David Bowie. Probably the David Bowie from 812. Once we get around to that. This version comes out of an opening. 1999 goes into fluff Head. Great performance of fluff head with 1999 callbacks in the peak. And then the band finds the exit ramp and moves into a jamming space that is pure 4.0 fish jamming. So many sounds, so much rhythm, so much funk, but then great melodies and then great breakdowns. And then this finds itself in a really nice segue into Saw It Again, which for anyone paying attention, we get our reprise of the Alpine 99 version. So the band was clearly listening, clearly aware of what was happening here. I think that there's an argument for the MSG 22 version from the. For the Dick's 23 version as well. Even the Monda Green version. I know I know, angry. It's an excellent, pure, excellent type 1 version. But I think that this really showcases that freedom that they found with the 724.99 fluff head. And once they got their sea legs back, they figured out how to jam and. And a song like Fluffhead carried them through so much of the early 3.0 era. It's now let loose, it's now free to do whatever it wants. And you hear it in a version like this. That is just stunning stuff.
- [54:12]
C
I was pretty surprised listening back to this version because I think I was when I was listening in the moment, just so overwhelmed by the context of like this historic nod of them playing 1999, playing this and then playing. I saw it again. Playing, Saw it again, sorry. And I think it was just so cute and awesome that I kind of forgot how amazing this Fluff Head was. And when I played it, it just blew my mind because it has, like, you're saying, Brian, all of the crispness and the tightness, but it also has all of the 4.0 sophistication. So you've got like effects in Claude and then you hear the crowd just go absolutely wild when they hit that 14 minute mark and you know that they're going to jam it. And you've got the sirens as like the callbacks. And there's just, just so much that they're doing to incorporate what they did well in 99 and also what they do well in 4.0 in a way that is really hard to do. And it's so cool when Fish knows their history. And it was really fun to listen back and be so surprised at how awesome this version is. And I really felt like it earns its spot here for sure. And I think obviously there's like an emotional contextual argument for 3609, but playing them back to back, this has just as much kind of context and history too, in a way. And it also really showcases what you spoke about, Brian, which is, you know, this is where Fluffhead is now. And I really think that 4.0 is a great era for Fluffhead and had to be on here.
- [55:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I kind of thought that I would prefer the Chula version, which Glenn Russell just mentioned in the chat. I think this is like very much a descendant of the Chula version, but the, the Chula version has like a nice blues kind of bluesy jam.
- [55:57]
C
Yeah, like jazzy. Yeah, yeah, super cool.
- [56:01]
A
This one is just like. It's blissy, it's stretched out, it's got like, it's just, it's a little bit more dynamic, I think, than the Chula version personally. But. And yeah, and I was at, I was at Hampton. I had. My friend was punching me in the arm like repeatedly when they started with Flip that. I mean it was like, what an amazing, amazing fish experience. But, but I think in terms of like, like, if I'm. If I'm recommending a fluff head to a friend, I'm probably not. I would tell them to listen to the first 15 seconds of the 3609 version because the crowd noise is over the top.
- [56:32]
C
It's so emotional.
- [56:33]
A
But I think this is the best like representative jam of, of the, of the era.
- [56:39]
C
And, and there is an argument like the dicks is 1 from 9223 is so pretty and melodic. It's so beautiful. And the Mondegreen version, I will say it's absolutely amazing. Again, that festival Fluff Head, there's something super special about it. The crowd is going crazy. Ending set two of that night. We all knew that we were going to have the secret set. Like there was. It was a really great moment and it's a beautiful, almost flawless version too. Really, really well played.
- [57:07]
B
Yeah, Dex23 is great and it does a thing that you don't see with a lot of these jammed out versions where it completes itself. It comes back to Fluff head. If you think about the Recent jamming versions, 8, 13 or 1023, 21 goes into NICU, 8, 1322 goes into SOD again, 1229, 22 goes into your pet cat. 9, 9, 23 resolves itself in a really interesting way. The biggest knock on it is that it's followed by my soul. And so we can't just by, you know, contractual obligation. We're not allowed to include anything that, you know, comes up right against my soul in set listing.
- [57:51]
C
It's just something we can't do.
- [57:53]
B
Not allowed to.
- [57:54]
A
I just wanted to shout out a couple listeners who, who sent their votes in. Brian Weinstein, a fellow fellow podcaster. Attendance Bias podcast.
- [58:04]
B
He's.
- [58:04]
A
He had junta. He had 11, 1790, 10, 1694 and 8, 1796. He's staying. He's staying in the 90s. He also added, we have a place there. We say add any fluff head you think should be part of Mount Rushmore. He added 12:29.97.
- [58:22]
B
That's a great version. I think I ultimately left it off because of the slop and the lack of post peak jamming that you get from it. That I felt like it could kind of be. But I've seen it. I've seen it in the chat here. A couple of people have mentioned it. Perplexing why this wasn't on there. Perhaps we got that wrong.
- [58:47]
A
Well, I think we got to stick by our guns here. I just want to say evdude has junta. 817 96, 3609 and 816 24. And overall the fan. The fan vote was basically split. 81796 was the top vote getter. And then junta and then 4 way tie between 8 198.
- [59:06]
B
724.
- [59:06]
A
999223 and 3809. Sorry. 3609.
- [59:13]
C
Awesome. I'm glad that people were cool with us doing the studio version. That makes me happy.
- [59:19]
A
Well, I think we did a good job. I am proud of this Mount Rushmore and I hope. I hope you guys are too. Do you guys have any regrets?
- [59:28]
C
Zero. I'm super happy with this list.
- [59:31]
B
Yeah. I think someone mentioned in the chat that like, you know, they thought we would have gone contextually with 3609. And I think as we've. We've all said, like contextually, it's one of the biggest things, I think that if you don't have the reinvention in 4.0 where Flathead becomes a regular jam vehicle, I think that is absolutely the last version on here. But we kind of have to give a nod to where history has actually gone. But yeah, man, that version there, there's a you. I think it's probably the most viewed video I've ever had on YouTube that I watch.
- [60:05]
C
Yeah, is.
- [60:06]
B
Is before the lights drop the purple balls around this, around the top of the stage or the top of the arena, that song, they're like, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. And then like the lights drop and you can just hear people crying and the band comes on stage and they all look so young now. They're like fucking 45 years old. Just like little dudes. Like, Mike has so much hair and Trey's hair is all bright red still. And they look so happy and so nervous. And I got to imagine the nerves in that moment were so intense for those guys because they're about to deliver something that they haven't played in 10 years. And it's an amazing version that still remember my brother texting me all caps, fluff head like 50 times in a row. God. Just amazing stuff.
- [61:03]
A
That's pretty great. Great experience. Well, I still think it I think these four versions, in terms of representing fluff Head, are what should be there. So I'm sticking by it. Send us voicemails and emails and whatever else you want. Tell us what you think, give us reviews, and by the time this is released, you should be able to vote on your favorite versions of Wave of Hope. If you go to osirispod.com rushmore so check that out. And I think that's everything. If you're listening to this on the audio version, hop over to the library card feed because we are going to talk about the Shining times two in just a minute. And if you're watching on the stream, just, just hang out here. We're gonna. We'll probably like put up a. Remember the Simpsons thing where they had the. What did it say? Technical difficulties with the guy with the camera? Like with the. The drunk guy with the camera. So we'll probably do that. But we're gonna, we're gonna stay on here and we're gonna keep talking.
- [62:00]
C
Just Brian, just.
- [62:01]
B
I don't know why I'm the only person on here. This is. There we go.
- [62:04]
A
There we go.
- [62:05]
B
We're back to normal.
- [62:06]
A
We have rebranded. Okay, we'll see you guys next week. For a Wave of Hope and a conversation with the guys from Music on the Mountain and Brian from Dogs in a Pile, go to rush osirispot.com Rushmore to vote on your favorite versions of Wave of Hope. Nope, I'm not going to sing anything, but we're gonna, we're gonna move on to Library card. Okay, bye, everybody.
- [62:26]
C
Bye, everyone.
- [62:31]
A
Okay, so here, why don't we do this. Watch this. I got something. Got something great for you guys.
- [62:37]
C
I can't wait.
- [62:39]
A
Actually, I don't know how to do it. I was gonna do a countdown. How do you do the countdown? Oh, here we go. You guys ready?
- [62:49]
B
You got it?
- [62:50]
A
I got it. Okay. I wonder if we can do this. Think we can do it in one minute? Let's do this. Let's do this. Two minute timer. Here we go. See you guys in a minute. Sa it.