Mt. Rushmore: No Men in No Man's Land

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast: Mt. Rushmore – "No Men in No Man's Land" Summary

Introduction

In the May 6, 2025 episode of the Helping Friendly Podcast (HFPod) titled "Mt. Rushmore: No Men in No Man's Land," hosts RJ, Megan, and Brian delve deep into the intricacies of Phish’s song “No Men in No Man's Land.” The episode explores various live renditions of the track, listener feedback, and the evolving nature of Phish’s improvisational style.

Upcoming Events and Announcements

Early in the episode, RJ highlights upcoming performances by their friend Reprise, encouraging listeners to attend shows:

• Show Details:
  • Date: Upcoming Thursday
  • Venue: Boston and surrounding areas
  • Special Event: Live show at Garcia's on the 22nd featuring Megan, Mike Greenhouse from Relics, and RJ.

RJ emphasizes the importance of community involvement and invites listeners to support the podcast by leaving five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts.

Listener Feedback and Musical Insights

Brian shares an insightful email from listener Brian Rips, who observed similarities in Trey Anastasio’s melodic patterns across different performances:

“Brian Rips said Trey introduces a melody resembling the X-Files theme at [01:12], which instantly reminded him of a sequence played during the Chalk Dust show on 10/27/24 at [15:51].” (Timestamp [02:48])

Megan relates this phenomenon to her own creative processes in poetry, noting how recurring themes or motifs naturally emerge over time.

Defining a Great Jam: Flow State and Narrative Arc

The hosts engage in a rich discussion about what constitutes a great Phish jam:

• Brian compares Trey’s improvisations to an NBA guard’s moves:

  “It’s about recognizing the defense and reacting appropriately, much like Trey revisits familiar melodies unexpectedly.” (Timestamp [06:04])

• Megan highlights the importance of narrative arcs in jams:

  “My favorite jams have strong narrative arcs, delivering a complete and driven piece.” (Timestamp [28:19])

• RJ emphasizes moments where the jam transcends its original structure:

  “When you forget what song you’re in because the patterns are being broken.” (Timestamp [29:35])

"No Men in No Man's Land" Rushmore Selections

The core of the episode revolves around constructing a Rushmore of the best live versions of “No Men in No Man’s Land.” The hosts meticulously analyze four standout performances:

1. 12/31/15, New York

   • Highlights: Paige’s synth effects and the seamless transition into a serene space.
   • Quote:

     “The last five minutes push into midnight with smart use of effects, making it more industrial and weird.” (Timestamp [32:25])

2. 9/11/17

   • Highlights: Atmospheric build-up and Trey’s one-note riff leading to a peak.
   • Quote:

     “It showcases the band’s ability to jam without exiting the song’s structure prematurely.” (Timestamp [41:00])

3. 10/27/18, Rosemont

   • Highlights: Deep groove and industrial wind-down, echoing the post-Magna Ball era.
   • Quote:

     “This jam has flow, narrative arc, and an unforgettable glide that feels like a runaway train.” (Timestamp [50:29])

4. 4/23/22

   • Highlights: Paige’s piano leads to a harmonious intro, transitioning into a melancholy space.
   • Quote:

     “It breaks the mold by staying within the song’s groove while pushing its boundaries.” (Timestamp [51:45])

Listener Voicemails and Community Engagement

The episode features a critical voicemail from listener ECW, addressing perceived biases in the hosts' reviews:

“I urge listeners to go listen to the Cyprus Rock and Roll with RJ's critique in your ear. It drags.” (Timestamp [09:35])

In response, Brian acknowledges the feedback and discusses the subjective nature of music appreciation:

“There’s no right or wrong in this game unless you weren’t there.” (Timestamp [64:12])

Final Rushmore Picks and Honorable Mentions

After thorough discussions, the hosts finalize their Rushmore selections:

• Main Picks:

  1. 12/31/15
  2. 9/11/17
  3. 10/27/18
  4. 4/23/22

• Honorable Mentions:

  • Megan includes additional strong performances like 9/21/6 and 4/23/22.
  • Brian initially considered 12/31/15 but adjusted his list based on the pre-recorded segments.

Conclusion and Future Episodes

The episode concludes with teasers for future discussions, including the upcoming analysis of “Down with Disease” and a potential ranking of the 100 Greatest Fish Jams of All Time slated for 2028. The hosts invite listeners to participate by voting on their favorite versions and engaging with upcoming live shows.

Notable Quotes:

• RJ on constructing the Rushmore:

  “There’s only one time we’re chiseling this shit into the mountain.” (Timestamp [01:24])

• Megan on poetic inspiration:

  “There are certain melodies that return again and again, much like themes in poetry.” (Timestamp [06:01])

• Brian on improvisational flow:

  “Improvisational music is about how it’s flowing, not about specific timings.” (Timestamp [06:04])

Final Thoughts

This episode of HFPod offers an in-depth exploration of one of Phish’s complex songs, enriched by listener interactions and expert analysis. It underscores the dynamic nature of Phish’s live performances and the passionate community that surrounds their music.

Transcript

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[Brian]

Osiris.

[RJ]

Good afternoon, everybody. We are back. Mount Rushmore. We're back. We're scaling it once again. I'm rj. I'm here with Megan and Brian. Hey, guys.

[Brian]

Hello.

[Megan]

Hi. Excited to be here?

[RJ]

Yeah, me too. We have a couple things that we're going to talk about. We will get to no man in no Man's Land, which we are talking about today. We will get to it soon, relatively speaking. Okay, so we have a couple things. There's one thing I want to say about Reprise. I think someone, I think our friend, maybe from Texas, the one who commutes, gets mad when we talk too much at the beginning. But you know what, we're gonna just talk for a little bit because we got some stuff to say if you're gonna be at in, in Boston, outside Boston, I guess. This Thursday, Reprise is playing. They are playing the 4398 show. I'll be there. Come say hi. Next week they're doing the 44 show at Fairfield Theater Company stage one. I think Megan will be there. And then on the 22nd at Garcia's, we are doing a live show. Megan and Mike Greenhouse from Relics and myself. We will be there. It's free to ticket holders. They are opening up the venue a little bit early. So if you're interested in coming to that, just check out, check out reprise band.com to get tickets for the 22nd but also obviously stay for the show if you're going to do that. But we will be there and we will be on stage talking about. We're going to be talking about something and it's Going to be fun. I don't know. I don't think we know exactly what we're going to be talking about yet, do we?

[Megan]

No, no, I don't think we've decided. I don't know. We have some ideas but we, we haven't decided yet but they're playing the most insane show that night.

[RJ]

Yeah, the last, last night of the island tour. Um, we are starting. We'll start the podcast around 6:45 and then the show will start at 8. So if you go to repriseband.com you can see the ticket availability for all those shows and like 10 other shows that are coming up. So that's that. Okay, we have, we need some more reviews. So go to Apple Podcasts, create an account if you have to. It's. It's the least you could this free content for the past decade. Plus give us a five star review. Tell us how much you like Brian's takes and you know all just our, our. All the stuff we do just tell us and so you. That we can reach more people. So tell, tell us that you love us. Go to Apple Podcasts and, and leave a review. Guys, I didn't even tell you about this because this is something that I wanted to just tell you on the air but there's a guy named, a guy named Brian Rips. Brian Rips R I P P S He I follow him on Instagram. He's a musician. He sent us an email that was really interesting. He. I met him at Brooklyn bowl in March but he's a huge fan and he was talking, he was listening to our, our spring recaps and basically wrote about this kind of idea of Trey falling in love with these licks and teases that he revisits over time. Norwegian Wood and the wizard of Oz titles. But he was thinking about or telling me about after he was thinking about it himself. He had a bunch of examples from this past tour where Trey would basically like come up with a melody and return to it later after several shows or several months or even years later. One was that I think we talked about this during this Portland recap during the Sigma Oasis jam. 1705 is the timestamp where Trey introduces this melody that almost resembles the X Files theme. Yeah, and Brian said that it instantly jumped out at him as the exact same sequence he played during the chalk dust on 102724 in Albany at 15:51 timestamp. And Brian said he talked to our friend Scott Cheslin from Reprise about this and his exact words were without even hearing It. I can guarantee it was not intentional, which is just interesting because it's just this idea that like, they have these things in their minds and they come back at various times, but not. Not with any intention at all. And I think that's just like hearing that from a couple musicians is pretty interesting.

[Megan]

It totally makes sense to me. I feel like I do that when I write poetry sometimes. Like I'll have a theme or a. Like something like even like Rick does this in Goose. Like he writes about like Ivy a lot. You know, in the same way that there are certain things that just inspire us, I imagine that there are certain musical melodies that, that come to you that. That return back again. That's so fascinating. Thinking of all the things that go into making a musical melody in your head and making one up. It's really cool. Makes sense.

[RJ]

Brian, do you have anything to say about this?

[Brian]

I'm on board with it. I mean, you know, especially right now. Trey there and. And this is like tied into a lot of the recent listening we've done for the Mount Rushmore series is. Is you hear as you listen through these songs, the evolution of like the band sound. And this is really a period right now of full, like fully conceived melodies from Trey on the fly. And I think it would be ridiculous to assume that every single time he comes up with one of these, it is the. It is a brand new thing in that moment. You know, for me, it's almost like equating to like a guard in the NBA who can break through a defense and then when they get off the ground, their body can move in these really fascinating ways for, you know, couple seconds and then they make a basket. And one of the best players at it right now is Anthony Edwards of the Timberwolves. And I've listened to him talk about how like, long he spent in the gym practicing what he would do when he meets a defender right in front of the hoop versus the side of the hoop. And so, you know, that happens on a, you know, multiple time basis throughout a game. It's not like he's trying to do something completely new, but he's recognizing the defense in that moment and how his body can and should react to it. And so like, do I think that Trey is saying to himself, now I'm going to insert if I only had a brain? No, but like, he's in that zone and he stumbles upon something that probably has some familiarity to him. But I think that that's the nature of improvisational music is. Would that come at minute six. Or would that come at minute 23? Who knows? It's all about how it's flowing.

[RJ]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to compare it to. To sports or writing or art or anything. I mean, it's. Yeah. And it. It. It probably has something to do with that, like, idea of being in a flow state, you know, where you're kind of, like, tapping into things that you don't.

[Brian]

You're not thinking, realize.

[Megan]

Yeah, exactly. You're doing and you're listening and you're responding in the moment and. Yeah. And there's only so many ways you can put together notes. Right. Depending on what.

[Brian]

Like, there's a finite amount of scales. Yeah.

[Megan]

Yeah. Makes sense.

[RJ]

Well, thank you, Brian Rips, for writing to us. Do you guys want to hear someone?

[Megan]

Yes.

[RJ]

You want to hear someone tell us via voicemail why my Rushmore takes our bed?

[Brian]

I would love to.

[RJ]

I bet. I bet.

[Megan]

I kind of figured, really, like.

[RJ]

Okay.

[Megan]

I hope this didn't affect your confidence.

[RJ]

Nah.

[Caller]

Hey there, HF Pod, Third time caller, long time listener. I couldn't help myself, but I wanted to give a few thoughts on your recent Rushmore episode on Rock and Roll, which I really enjoyed and which got me listening back to some of the better versions of that song. The one part that. That really kind of made me pause, though, was the treatment of the big Cypress rock and roll, which, you know, stands leaps and bounds, in my opinion, you know, above many other versions. And it was remarkable that I think it was rj, the amount of shade cast on that version that put the other podcaster in this defensive posture. It was just hard to listen to. I think one of the critiques that RJ levels is that, you know, it drags. The big Cypress rock and roll drags. And, you know, I urge listeners to go listen to the Cyprus rock and roll with. With RJ's critique in your ear. It drags. I can't imagine what he thinks of. Of other jams like the Fukuoka Twist. What a meandering pile of ambient goo. Oh. So please don't assume that that's a fair critique. And please do listen back to the Cypress Rock and Roll, a pivotal jam in the Cypress Midnight Set. Equal parts shred groove and ambience and all parts interesting. Keep up the good work.

[RJ]

It's fine. It's a little slow in the middle.

[Brian]

That caller can call in any episode. No, you know, it's funny, I've been thinking about this, like, because we. We got some. We got some heat for our. Our bad reviews of certain ballads in the spring tour. And you know what, man? Like, there's no better content master on this screen than Mr. RJB. And is he, is he, is he right about that section dragging? I mean, I won't lie that it had me listening to it with that in my head, which probably ended up messing me up. Even though I picked that version based on the cowbell, you know, at the center of it. I think we all came to the agreement coming out of that that, yeah, there is some extended noise and space because you have seven hours to fill. And it sounds almost like a band who is saying, hey, we got seven hours to fill. We can play a 30 minute version here where an 18 minute version would. Yeah, I don't know.

[RJ]

I don't know.

[Megan]

Well, I'm curious if we all had the same opinions on all these jams. It'd be pretty boring show.

[Brian]

That's the other thing that, that like blows my mind is this idea that we're all supposed to agree that everything is just good. Like, do you want to tune into like, like, do you want these to be like 90 second episodes? Because I can just be like, yeah, I love this. Oh, man. Meg, don't you love rj? Don't you love this? We all love this. So lovable and awesome.

[Megan]

And when you're having to, like, and when you're having to like, take the best jams, like, that's what we're doing. Brian has created a list of the best versions of these songs and then we have to find what's better about them. You have to start finding things wrong with incredible jams. It's like that's actually what you have to do. You have to start. We're ranking jams, so you have to say, I like this one better or I think this one deserves to be here better. And you have to find, start finding fault with really incredible pieces of music. It's really tough. Today we were talking about it.

[Brian]

All things you love.

[Megan]

You have to be critical. And it's made me a deeper listener and I appreciate it every day, but it is hard. Like today I'm going to have to leave off two of my favorite jams. Two of my favorite no man jams. They're going to have to leave off. But it's just, it's the hard business we're in.

[Brian]

I just want to give a shout out here to one of our most dedicated listeners and someone who's never said a bad thing about this podcast. So he gets the shout out, which is forbin 777 sometimes I think the voicemails are all friends of RJ's that are hazing him in character. I'm into that conspiracy theory.

[Megan]

Totally.

[Brian]

We've been talking a lot about merch lately, and maybe that is. Maybe that's. We should just start printing people's voicemails on T shirts. I think that that's what it would be. And then like, friend of RJ's underneath.

[Megan]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. We are like list of. Of send it. Merch of just making fun of ourselves is pretty long.

[RJ]

Yeah. I mean, it's. It could happen. We can do it anytime. Okay. All right. Let's get into this. This Rushmore, because we got. We got a lot to talk about. So we're talking about no man in no man's land. It's my. It's my Rushmore to construct. So nobody else really has to stress out about their picks because, you know, there's only one. There's only one time we're chiseling this shit into the mountain. So you guys.

[Megan]

Yeah, but you know, you know me and Brian, right. You know us, right? Like, you know that we're going to do work. Even if we don't. It doesn't really matter.

[Brian]

I sometimes wonder how much he really knows.

[RJ]

Megan. Megan. This is a. This is a song that I think the song and the Jam itself, both of it. It's great. It is great. It's so great. It's a good song. Do you. Do you have anything to tell us?

[Brian]

Great song.

[RJ]

Get into it. About the song itself.

[Megan]

Yes. I think this is some of their best lyrics. Trey and Tom write this song in the outer banks in February 2015. It's famously influenced by Fare Thee well and the Moutron envelope filter, similar to what Jerry uses in Dancing in the Streets. And it debuts in Bend, Oregon at the summer tour opener, along with Blaise on and Shade. And Mercury debuts the next night. And the debut is a 10 minute jam inside Mike's Groove, which is, to me, a pretty cool way to make an appearance. And it has some killer versions. That summer it was in a great show at the man. Eight hours, 21 minutes and 15 seconds at Magna Ball. And then four lines of the lyrics at the very end of the song are dropped during the 9, 5, 15 performance, and then they're gone forever. And the song is officially released on big boat in October 2016. It has been performed 81 times, which I actually thought was less than I thought, but I guess it's a newer song, 20 entries on the jam chart. So about 25% of the time it will jam. And we had eight HF pod top versions curated by Brian to choose from for today.

[RJ]

So we have. We have basically like an eight year span here in terms of the. The gems. When we're talking about some other. I mean, for Hood, we had what, 32 years, probably 30 years, something like that.

[Megan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[RJ]

So we're talking about a pretty. Like, we're talking about a pretty limited scope in terms of time frame.

[Megan]

Yeah. And I think our top versions end in 22.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

No, do they end in 22?

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Brian]

The final version on the list was 12, 30, 2022.

[Megan]

So that's even five years that we're looking at. So. Even tighter.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I think it's interesting to look at this in comparison to what we have looked at. Gin, Hood, Rock and Roll, moma, Dance, and then even Light, which has been around for 15 years at this point in time. This song still feels relatively new to my ears. But also in the same way that Light, Kill, Devil Falls, Fuego Sigma, Oasis, Everything's Right, these songs have. They now feel like fish songs. You know, it doesn't feel like you're throwing the new song into the set just to see what happens. No man in no Man's Land has been one of the more versatile songs in the band's career over the last eight years. It's open shows, it's played randomly in the middle of first and second sets. It's open second sets into big jam vistas. I gotta check. I don't know if it's ever encored, but like it's kind of been played in every little part of. Of the show in a way that a lot of songs sometimes struggle to be like to figure out where exactly it belongs. This kind of is uniquely. Could be played anywhere.

[Megan]

Yeah, I love this song. I think it's really introspective and I've always loved how this song seems to be. To kind of comment on the band overcoming a lot and thinking about their role in this world they have created. It's kind of meta. It's how. Talking about how they're kind of inside the fish community and also outside it. There's some really poetic lyrics and it's a really cool, like a perspective and what we can all understand and kind of the hiddenness of depth depending on how you look at things. And they've always spoken to me, these lyrics and you know, that's not true for all fish songs. So I just feel like I need to like, point that out. But this one is really good, and I love how it's housed. It's kind of introspective. Song is housed in this just really groove of a song. It's so dancy and infectious, and a lot of the gems that come off of it are fairly diverse, but they all have this underlying momentum to them that's like an offshoot of the Grooviness, which I think, which is really fun. And listening to that, that really stood out to me. And listening to these top versions, that's.

[Brian]

Something that hit me about this whole era. Like this song, Blaze on and Mercury all have this kind of underlying meta self consciousness about them. My take on this song, when it emerged was it was almost a badge of honor that Trey, you know, standing in for Jerry, surpassing 30 years, which was kind of the cap we got on the. The Jerry led dead. They are the only. They're the only ones who are left here, and they're kind of now in uncharted territory. And it was almost a celebratory. There was a bit of arrogance to the song that I find, like, from a lyrical standpoint. Plus, when you mix that with the groove, where it sounds like it kind of comes out of a jam already in motion.

[Megan]

Totally.

[Brian]

You know, like, there's just. There's something hyper fish about it. Almost reminds me of Birds of a Feather in the way that that song referenced the community and referenced the kind of stress that the band was under, but also sounded like it could have come off of Remaining Light. This has that sort of sense of. Of fish history built into it.

[RJ]

Yeah, I think that's all totally fair, but I also think that it, like, like many songs that we feel are about something that Tom writes the lyrics to, they're just about, like, science.

[Brian]

No way.

[Megan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they have.

[Brian]

You mean that, like, Bob Dylan isn't writing songs about what I feel like to a t. You. You really mean that? That's what's happening here. It's not about me.

[RJ]

No, I think it's. I think it's both. I think it's both.

[Brian]

But that's.

[Megan]

That's so hard to do.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Make something that feels personal and. And individual, but it's really large and epic in scope. That's. It's really hard to do. Turns out.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah. There's some great lyrics in the song. I mean, it is all those things, Brian. And then there's. There's a lot about, like, aging also, I think, which you see a lot in, like, you know, more. More obviously in, like, Blaze on and some others. But there's a lot about things, right? Yeah, everything's right. Like evaluating yourself in a different era, you know, which I think is in which is interesting. My. So after going through this, I think there are like many. There are at least eight, like the ones that we listen to and maybe more like very, very good versions of this song. I think there might be, like one that I would say is like, great, but I don't think there's like a lot of great versions of this song. Do you guys agree with that? Like, compared to like bathtub gin when we did that, it's like some of these, like some of the versions that didn't make it in the top four Bathtub gins are like all time great fish jams. I don't think there's a single all time good fish jam of no man.

[Megan]

It's very hard to compare a song that's been around that long in my mind. But I think there are some incredible gems out of this.

[RJ]

Would any of these, would any of these make your top 50 fish jams of all time?

[Brian]

One, potentially. I have not sat down and made that list. So you're further along there than I am. So I, I, I would yield to you.

[RJ]

But you would disagree with most of my list. Would I?

[Brian]

I think your top five are, like, extremely strong. This is now our next project we're going to do. We're going to rank the 100 greatest fish gems of all time in 2028. Whenever we, um.

[Megan]

That'd be really fun.

[Brian]

Talk about breaking Megan's brain.

[Megan]

Totally. I just like.

[Brian]

So this is an interesting comment that you make that I don't necessarily think is wrong. I think that there is a. How do I put it? This is the challenge of covering a song like this. At this point in this series, we're going to experience this with a number of other songs. We have one that is coming up in a couple of weeks that is even newer that just had potentially one of its Rushmore versions over the spring. Hint and wink wink. So I think the more I listen to current fish and the more I go back and listen to historical fish with the lens of what are the four best versions of this song? I continually walk away with. Gonna take a lot of heat for this. But I gotta go with the recent jams because I think that there's a lot of really interesting stuff that's happening and a lot of, like, they're not as much learning about each other anymore musically or like, pushing each other to do things they're just kind of communicating. And I think this goes back to a conversation we had a couple weeks ago about, like, is Fish evolving musically still? And I think what you get in no man and across these jams is a band that just kind of knows how to. How to jam and how to play to each other's strengths and how to kind of push and pull against each other in ways that are more complementary rather than kind of aggressive in the way that we heard in the 90s and in the 2000 early 2000s, at least. Because I guess. Let me ask you a question. Like, are you saying that these jams don't take as big of risks or as big of swings as, like, a bathtub gin from 1995? Or that they're not as dynamic because the band isn't as dynamic? Like, what do you. What do you. What are your kind of.

[RJ]

No, I mean, I. I agree with you about the newer. Like, the newer era. I agree with you about that. So I don't think it's about that. I think it's that they. The gems, almost all. There's some variation toward. As we get more toward, like, the current years, but they're. The formula for the jam is there's. There's not a lot of variation in terms of the structure of the jams they get into. Especially, like, the first half, like, most of them are. You know, it's page driven, it's synths. It's like. It gets to, like, the first nine or ten minutes of. Most of them are almost the same. Not exactly the same, but they get. They get to the same place in the same way. So to me, it's about what happens in the last four to five minutes for a lot of them, because a lot of them follow a similar pattern for those long periods of time. So I think it just, like Bathtub Gin can go in so many different directions because it's been around for so much longer, and I think they just have a different relationship with it. Whereas this is a. It's a little bit more like a composed song in that sense, I think, because I don't think that they. They don't really go out as. I don't know if that's true. They don't often go outside of the structure of the song. Like, some of these are really long type one jams.

[Megan]

Well, the groove is really deep. And I also think it's really hard, too, because those songs that they were jamming in the 90s, there were so many less jam vehicles.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Right now there's so many that it's just hard to compare a song like A Bathtub Gin that had so many more at Bats. And so of course it can go many, many places because. And it also existed in a time period when the band was pushing in ways that they just don't push anymore because they don't need to because they get there quicker. But yeah, I just think that it competes. These newer songs have so much competition for jam vehicles.

[Brian]

It's interesting because like it's an interesting comp to Bathtub Gin as well. I don't know if you made this intentionally or not, but like Bathtub Gin can be the 1120, 1997 version that's 31 minutes and gets into like dark, twisted, weird insanity. Or it can be. The first version of this that comes to mind is like 6, 27, 10 from Merryweather. That's like 13 minutes of bathtub gin and it's just hose and it's amazing, it's beautiful. And Gin can kind of go back and forth between. You hear a 13 minute bathtub gin midway through the first set and you are just thrill because you got 13 minutes of bathtub gin that just was like hoes. But then you get other versions and they've been doing this a lot recently where like Bathtub Gin kind of toes the line between Bathtub Gin and something else. And I think given another 15, 20 years, no man in no Man's Land would kind of be in that realm where like like I'm thinking of a version off the top of the head that I My Head that I saw which was 11118 which is the second song in the second set. It's 10 minutes. It never breaks out of no man and no Man's and it kind of like edges at the end of the groove but like it never breaks out. But it's a fully satisfying, excellent moment within that overall set. And it kind of works in the same way that Jyn does there I think to what you're getting at. This, this. I'm really afraid to ask this question because I think that this is going to prevent us from actually diving into no Man. But this is a question I've been asking myself throughout this series as I've been doing my homework. And so I'm curious your guys answers. Maybe this is something we revisit. What is it you look for in a great jam? Like when you're listening to a great jam, Is it they're going somewhere and they reach that destination or is it that they find a bunch of really cool Stuff to mess around with and then maybe peek it at the end or maybe just like, fade out into another song. Like, do you need a jam to have direction, or do you need a jam to explore cool places?

[Megan]

For me, I think I'm looking for two opposing things, and it can be either one of these to make the jam great. For me, one is I want to be completely stopped in my tracks by something I hear. Some piece of the jam is so beautiful or so driving or so creative or so ambient or so exploratory or so scary or so evil. Anything that just feels inspired and just stops me. That is one thing I'm looking to. And if I get that, then I feel like it's a great jam. But I think my favorite jams are the ones that have really strong narrative arcs, and I don't even care what the arc is. Like, there's a jam we're going to talk about today. Or maybe not that I struggled because I really want it on this list because I think it has the strongest perspective and the strongest narrative arc. Even though it's kind of one tone and one note, but it is. It fucking delivers so hard what it's trying to do. And it's just so driven and, like, complete as a piece. But so that, to me is like. I love that.

[Brian]

Rj.

[RJ]

Yeah. I mean, the ideal thing, which is rare, is that there is a point during the jam where I forget what jam it is. Like, what song.

[Megan]

What song you're in. Yeah.

[RJ]

Which really is. It doesn't happen that much. But when that happens, it's like, it's clear that your, you know, patterns are being broken, which I think is part of the. The ideal scenario. And I think, like Megan said, for me, like, hearing new. Hearing new things, whether it's just even the. Because we listen to so much of this stuff, it doesn't have to be major, you know, it's just. It's a small. It's these small little pieces of. Of, you know, going. Taking a left turn or. Or just someone throwing something in there that. That you don't. That you're not used to hearing. That's. That, to me, is what I look for. Well, I want to hear from our listeners, too. So you guys leave us voicemails or something to tell us what you guys look for and in jams. Because I'm curious, because I think. I think everyone. A lot of fans think about this, like, very differently.

[Brian]

I mean, for me, the greatest Fish jam that has ever been played is the 91499 ECDC bag, as you all know, as our. As our listeners out there know as well. And what is it about that jam? That jam has, like, six different segments that I can immediately cling to in my head, while also, I think, going somewhere, like, there. There's a direction to that space. At the end of that, they're reaching. I don't think they ever come back, but they're reaching to this end zone that requires these, like, bit by bit moments. It's. It's almost like. Like, there's got to be a plot line to a certain degree, but that plot cannot be the only thing. Like. Like, I'm. I'm never going to be fully attracted to a jam that just jumps on a riff and rides it to the peak. Now, granted, I love the Camden chalk dust. So you're going to call me a hypocrite, that's totally fine. Nobody's black and white in this sort of sense. But, like, you know what I mean? Like.

[Megan]

But when it's done perfect, it is amazing.

[Brian]

When it's done perfect, it's. It's amazing. Ultimately, what I'm looking for. Yes. Is this sense of, let's stop, let's look around, let's see what's here, but let's keep moving forward as well.

[RJ]

Well, okay, now we. We're gonna. Okay, let's get into this because we. We have to go through these four versions. Then we have to hear your choices, Brian and Megan.

[Brian]

And we do.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[RJ]

And we have to hear the fan vote also. Okay, so I'll just start. I'm just gonna go straight into it. There's no more. No more Prelude, everybody. We're going straight in at 32 minutes. At 32 minutes. I mean, come on.

[Brian]

Sorry, I asked an impossible question. I just. I've been thinking about it based on a future episode.

[RJ]

Who's keeping track of time anyway? All right, the first version is 123115 from New York. I. I do. I do wonder if the fact that the, like, the first couple minutes are, like, pre recorded, does that affect anything? I don't know. I didn't read, like, the bylaws closely enough to know if that's. That should affect our choices. But this is like, you know, the. The whole structure of this jam, when it's great is this, like, Trey is on the effects early in the jam, and then he kind of gets quieter, and then Paige gets on the synths in a way that just kind of launches it into a totally different space. There's like a couple chords that Paige hits where you're just like. Like, it. Just it. I'm just like, whoa. Every time, you know? And I think that's, like, a really cool moment in these jams where he. Where this is. This jam often is kind of a page vehicle, you know, at least for vast majorities of it. And I think this one is really, really representative of that. And then, like, you know, they go into this kind of serene space for a while. But I do think that the last five minutes of this are really great. They're like, pushing it to go to. To midnight, but it's. It's. It gets weirder. It gets. It gets, like, more cacophonous in some way, but with, like, really smart use of effects by Paige. Like, it's just. It's very tasteful the way that he's kind of making it sound more weird and industrial. And like I said earlier, like, the last five minutes of these jams are where the differences were for me. So I think that's. That's what it is for this. Like, the last five minutes of this jam is really awesome. But. But it. But from the beginning, Paige kind of sets it in that direction. So I think this version's great.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's definitely on my list. What a gorgeously executed New Year's Eve gag. I love how it's, like, watery and kind of groove oriented in the beginning. And this is the first time the jam from the song. From this song really departs hardcore from the funk. Like, it actually moves away from it, which I think is important. And I love how when they slow down and get to that ambient space, they're super patient. Even though they are on the clock. You would never know that they are watching the clock so closely when they're playing this jam, which I think is a real testament to their ability to be in the moment while still functioning. This New Year's Eve gag. And yeah, the. The crescendo at the end is so wild. And I watched it again this week. It was really fun to see. To see them playing so close together in a circle, looking at each other like that. Yeah.

[Brian]

It'S my favorite New Year's Eve gag ever. The fact that it picks up from the Drive In Jam and utilizes the technology of the Drive In Jam. It sounds like the Drive In Jam is one of my favorite things ever. That's a top five experience I've ever had with this band. We don't have bylaws, you know, this is not. We don't have a constitution here. So, you know, we are reviewing based on our own standards. This was on my list until this weekend. I had to make the judgment call because of the pre recorded aspect to it. It would be.

[RJ]

To a sit in being on Mount Rushmore. Would it be. It would be.

[Brian]

It would be in that sort of level. It would be akin to.

[Megan]

Don't you think it's hard to. To put in a pre recorded section and play with it and make it seamless like that is hard. And it's them playing it it like it's them playing it and they've actually managed to improvise around that. It's. That's pretty cool.

[Brian]

It's very impressive. I will not argue that at all. I think that it would be akin to us putting like Ulysses S. Grant on the. On Mount Rushmore, you know, or like a president who's been impeached, like, you know, an Andrew Johnson or a Clinton. I don't know. I think that when I think about what goes on Rushmore, I think that there is a bit of a purity argument that.

[RJ]

Wow.

[Brian]

I'm not saying you made the wrong call here because this was on my list until this weekend. I'm just walking you through my own way of looking at this and conceiving of this. So I had to make the call for myself. I think that the community will agree with you that you made the right call here and that's what matters.

[RJ]

As long as that's what matters. Evdude asks a good question. Do we know it was 100% pre recorded and not a looped portion of the live jam? I don't know. I don't know anything.

[Brian]

That's a fair question. I don't think we know. So that's a very fair question. I'm just going based off of what my ears have told me is happening on stage for 20 years of listening span versus what I hear here. Yeah, but you're absolutely right. There. There's. There's an absolute argument to be made. We're all, we're all just asking questions here. F. Dude. We're all, we're all just stating opinions, you know, hoping that we get that Shopify sponsorship, you know, like that's all that this is here.

[Megan]

Well, so I'd be. I'm curious if there's any of more of these kind of bylaws that are going to be changed while we're doing this. It might be good to know those, particularly when it's.

[Brian]

I'm not, I'm not writing bylaws. I'm just going based off of my own Perception of it and the decisions I felt like I had to make. If you want me to sit down and write the bylaws, in addition to, you know, curating this. This overall series, I'm happy to do it all. I can do everything. Fine. You know, you can just juggle here while I'm doing it as well.

[RJ]

Okay, well, you know, I don't think.

[Brian]

You made a wrong decision here.

[RJ]

We're getting rid of. If we have any bylaws, we're going to get rid of more. That's what we're. That's what we're going to do.

[Megan]

Oh, I like that. Yeah, we're rule breakers here at HFPod.

[RJ]

Okay, so I'm going to the next version now. We're. We're. I'm gonna go to what I. What I think is the. So we were talking about, like, kind of ideal gems earlier or what we look for. I think this next jam is where they. For the first time, I think, in this jam, really create a full. A full, like, what you would consider, like, Big Fish Jam with the. The celebratory peak at the end and, like, all that. So I. I think that this is the best. This is the next best version that should go up there, which is 9, 1 17. I skipped over a couple versions, but the same thing. Like, you know, the there. It gets atmospheric and mellow in the middle, and then there's like, this part where Mike kind of takes over and pushes this strange soundscape, and it kind of has, like, a little bit of a Dark Star Jam feel. And there's just this section that just feels very, like. It feels very atmospheric. And then Trey hits, like, one note and then just starts to, like, really slowly bring it back. And I think there's a riff in there that he played that he used in other places in 2017, and then, like, builds it back up from. From the ashes into, like, this peak. It's just a really, really great adventure all the whole time. I mean, it just with the. I think maybe. Maybe one thing about this jam in particular is, like, it's. The good. Really good versions are a balance of, like, the effects and the patience and the playing. You know, like, a few of them have too much of the. Trey's effects, but this is, like, a great example of, like, all of them using different points to, like, keep the jam going. And. And I think it's a really pretty amazing, amazing piece.

[Megan]

Yeah, was definitely on my list. Just has that perfect structure, like you said. I love how it peaks so wildly in the beginning. It gets so. There's just. It's so intense, that peak. And then you've got the ambient minor key stuff that's so beautiful. And then like you mentioned the creep out to the build. I think this like opening this set too, of just a perfect five song second set too. It's just like. It's really beautiful. Important placement.

[Brian]

Yeah. This is on my list. Everything you said. This does the thing that I think RJ was critiquing slightly earlier. But I think it does better than any other no man jam that will most likely end up on our list, which is. It peaks the nomen peak around 10 minutes. Like it takes about 10 minutes to get out of this. But I think when you listen back to it, that first 10 minutes is really well earned and really kind of showcases this next kind of push that the band's gonna go through. Now that they know coming out of the Baker's Dozen how much they can jam and how they can jam on a whim. Because then it fades into that whole soundscape. I mean, I was at this show, I remember there were moments where you couldn't really hear what was going on on stage because they were playing so quietly. And then it started to come back and at times it felt like they were just fading a new song. And when you listen to the. The soundboard recording, I mean all that stuff is connected. But it was a really cool, you know, example of them using quiet to really drive forward music. And randomly you'd hear just like a water and then they would start to like celebrate. And the peak of its end is just like. It's very, very well earned.

[Megan]

Yeah. And the synths are really used in a sophisticated way. They're not like overdone it. Like they kind of enter the chat in the very end in this like really cool way. And yeah, this is a great gem.

[RJ]

I think around this time is when around 2017, like you said, Brian, with the Baker's Dozen and everything else. They kind of got back to this kind of building these jams up from silence, which I think they had gotten away from for a while. Like you go back to obviously like the Providence Bowie and there are these, like. It wasn't that often that they would do it in fall 94. They did it a lot, but they didn't do it that much in the late 90s. It was more like those propulsive jams, you know, where they just like. It was just pure like. Like the ACDC bag from Boise. That's just. I mean, it's pretty much Nonstop, you know.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Amazing.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Which is amazing. But I think they kind of got back to this. It takes. It's got to take so much patience to get from, you know, basically quiet to. To build back up to something like that. It's really awesome.

[Brian]

Well, it's wild to think about, like, you know, Dicks has always kind of represented this location where the band kind of pushes forward to this new idea of who they're going. And they hadn't really done that in the previous couple of years. And this is kind of this moment where they've been playing what's the Use A lot around this time. And that, like, allows them structurally to get to quiet and get to these like dynamic ranges. This was a jam that, like, you got a new song, first second set since the Baker's Dozen, 24, 25 minute long jam that then leads into a 20 minute jam. Like, it's just. There's a lot of symbolism in this jam that I think this is your. This is your Jeffersonian etching. I agree.

[RJ]

Man. They're really. 2017. That's like month and a half of 2017 is pretty outrageous.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

That's insane. That's why we've, like, probably done more content on that period in time than anything else.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

Why I'm sitting here right now.

[RJ]

Wow.

[Brian]

Right now.

[RJ]

Right now. Yeah. And hopefully Megan will still be sitting here after we take a break.

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[Brian]

Hey, what's up, you guys?

[RJ]

This is Reid Mathis. I made a podcast called the Gifts of Improvising. The Gifts of Improvising that's coming out on Osiris.

[Brian]

We talked to all your favorite improvisers. Natalie Cressman, Marco Benevento, Tom Hamilton, Aaron.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Magnar, Holly Bowling, Bill Kreutzman, and Jay Lane.

[RJ]

So what, you're doing a podcast? Yeah, doing a podcast.

[Megan]

So don't fear if you hear a foreign sound to your ear.

[Brian]

We need the gifts of improvising.

[Megan]

The gifts of improvising.

[RJ]

All Right, we're going on to version number three. Here we are, let's see. What are we skipping?

[Megan]

This is the hardest one I think to pick.

[Brian]

Is it.

[Megan]

This is where I struggled. The third.

[Brian]

Yeah, interesting.

[Megan]

Third and fourth.

[RJ]

Yeah, I, I don't.

[Brian]

We'll see.

[RJ]

Yeah, I guess. Well, yeah, we'll see. Okay, so I'm. I went straight to. Wait. But straight to. It is the next one chronologically. Oh no, there's one more. Okay, we're going to 10, 27, 18, which I think is. This is. Okay, so I'll just give a little summary here, which is that first of all, if you listen to these in order, it's a much slower Tempo than 2016 and 2017. It's like this. The song has slowed down a lot, which is kind of interesting, but. But that just allows more time for Paige to like use these synth effects to get to like build up. And then it kind of like. I mean this version kind of stays out there for a while in this sort of ambient space. But Fishman never stops playing fully. Kind of slows down but. But never stops. But it only is there in that space for a minute. And then there's this really beautiful segment in there that I think is like just really notable. And then Mike kind of drives the effects into. Into the rest of the jam and there's like this kind of industrial wind down jam for several minutes.

[Megan]

I love that part.

[RJ]

It's pretty awesome. It's like, like all these, you know, it's really the last five minutes that. That defines these great jams. We should put together the last five minutes of these four versions, like back to back funny 20 minutes of music because they're all different. But it is what kind of makes it unique, you know. And I think this, this version is great. It's really. It's really long. But I. I mean it's pretty. It's a pretty engaging 26 minutes. I don't think I would like. I don't think it's all about just the end. It's a. It's a great. It's a good journey.

[Brian]

Do you remember what rumor this jam kicked off in Fishdom for like five days?

[RJ]

No.

[Brian]

That they were going to cover the residents 1981 album.

[RJ]

Oh, is that what it came from? I mean, I remember well, and it.

[Brian]

Was kind of like a meeting. It was a meeting of like five different things, but it was. This jam was played and then at some point there was an interview where Fishman said we're covering an album from 1981. Oh, yeah, we love that. Nobody's ever heard of. It's gonna like horrify and terror, like blow people's minds, which casual Vox ultimately did for those who get it. And then, yes, there was the. There was the shirt that one of them was wearing. And everyone kind of put together based off of this jam. Like, this is. This is them channeling the residents. So I think you made the right call here. The last five minutes of this are just like some of the most demonic and insane fish that you could have imagined during this period or really any other fall. 18 made our list in large part because of jams like this that they just. They just kind of went the extra mile with a lot of these jams. And they were. You know, Trey with the. Leslie, Paige had his synthesizers. Mike was still like really dynamic at this point. Fishman was locked in. And the band was just kind of on that continual high post Magna Ball, post Baker's Dozen that like, ideas like this could. Could emerge. They were also doing a lot of like post peak jamming during this period in time where they would like, jams were electric. They would. They would hit a really high peak and then the backside, you would just see like, weirdness and just like total sonic exploration. And you totally get that in this jam. This is one of my favorites of the entire 3.0 era and absolutely has to be on this list.

[Megan]

Yeah, on my list as well. It's just. This has flow narrative arc. It's got the funk section. It's got the like beautiful pensive section. It's got the effect heavy section. It has the machines talking to each other section. Like, it's got. It's got everything, but it doesn't sound effortful. It's awesome.

[RJ]

I think this is the one that I'd put on the all time list. This is like a. This is a jam that I wouldn't like.

[Brian]

This is mine too.

[RJ]

Yeah. Yeah. Are we gonna be four for four across the board?

[Brian]

You and I are.

[RJ]

Oh, are we? I thought you were too, Megan. So far.

[Megan]

No, no, no.

[RJ]

Oh, no.

[Megan]

From you, I'm gonna be one off.

[RJ]

Which one did you not have of these? So far?

[Brian]

I'm one off from you.

[Megan]

I have all these.

[RJ]

Oh, I see.

[Megan]

But I'm gonna have. I know I'm gonna have a different one than you.

[RJ]

Got it. Got it. Okay. Because of the way that the calendars work. Okay. All right, you guys ready? Last one. So I'm. I'm just, you know. You know me. I love 4.0. I've been a 4.0 fan all along, I've been Brian Brinkman.

[Brian]

Before 4.0 became a thing in fall.

[RJ]

2021, Brian went to some shows and was like, you got to check out this band. And since then it's been. Been nothing but love and light. So, yeah, I'm going to 4322 as the last one.

[Brian]

4 2, 32 2.

[RJ]

What?

[Brian]

4 23, 22.

[RJ]

4 2, 32 2. This is like a. It's interesting. This is the only one of the four that has Paige primarily on piano. Not the synths in the. In the beginning, which creates a much more like, harmonious kind of upbeat intro to the jam and a different soundscape. Like, usually you have this kind of, you know, crazy synthetic intro, but this is more just. It gets into this, like, kind of plinko space and then it almost sounds like a weak. A pog kind of style jam. But the. The entry to it is totally different, which I think is great. We. And then Mike pushes this into this kind of more like melancholy space. And. And this has a little bit of a different kind of soloing by Trey over it. And Fish kind of follows Trey through this kind of build to the peak. The ending is beautiful and weird, and this is a really amazing jam. This is a great jam. I love this gem.

[Brian]

Yeah, this was. This was very much on my list. I'm just checking my. This was my number five favorite jam of 2022 overall.

[RJ]

It.

[Brian]

You talked earlier about, like, a lot of these end up kind of in a same. A similar zone. I think this is the one that breaks the furthest and I think it sets the tone. What is. Really. Well, aside from those last five minutes of the 102718 version, this one, like, as a complete piece feels like. And they were doing this a lot in 4.0, where they would just finish a song and just change keys and within two minutes, you had no idea what song you were in. And this does that really, really well. It's really regal. It's got a great Trey solo section in it. It's got a really well earned peak. It just. It ends up feeling like, to me, this along with the Chicago version and a version that is not on your list, but is on my list. The peaks of this song in three distinct ways. One being the song itself, another being like the most dystopian image of it, and then the other of like, this is. This is the. This is type 2 fish jamming in my brain.

[Megan]

Yeah, I love this jam. This is like my favorite jam of this run. And when I was. I couldn't tell if I had, like, too much attendance bias with this jam because it was such an amazing moment. I had this killer spot right on the kind of 200 rail right there where I had all kinds of space. And rg, I think you joined me up there one of the nights, and it was pretty fun. But this, I just. I'll never forget dancing to this jam in the moment. Some. My friend took a video of me. But still, I'll never forget it because it just had such a glide to it that is. It's. It's unforgettable and it's beautiful. Massive flow and fluidity in this jam. Just absolutely perfect. So connected. But I didn't have it on my list. It was tough. It was the first one to go off, but, yeah, I might have been wrong about this. I don't know.

[Brian]

The first to go off. Goodness.

[RJ]

There is no. There is no right. You know, that's the whole. That's the whole idea.

[Megan]

One honorable mention is what I mean. Not the first.

[RJ]

Oh.

[Brian]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Megan]

Thank you.

[Brian]

Thank you. Because I was like.

[Megan]

It was like what I was struggling with. Yeah, cool.

[Brian]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[RJ]

Guys, there is no right.

[Brian]

There is no right. There's just poster nut bag. The right way.

[RJ]

There's a good comment here. One is noting and reminding me of. Okay, so that's. That's our. That's our four here. We got 12, 31, 15, 9, 1 17, 10, 27, 18, and 4, 23, 22. Is that right? Right?

[Megan]

Yeah, that's.

[Brian]

That's the list. Yep, we got the list.

[RJ]

Okay, so, Meg, what do you got?

[Megan]

So I had 12, 31, 15. I had 9, 117, and I have 12, 28, 17 MSG on my list. Yeah, I just. Jim is awesome. I think that it's very similar almost to, I would say, 9, 1 17. In a way. I think 9117 is better. But I love how this one just right away launches into deep space. It's not. There isn't the no man's peak. It just immediately goes off into a really interesting spot right away. And so to me, it felt like it was a little bit of a different form and. And I think it just really builds to such an organic peak and then just takes on a life of its own. And I love how it comes back to the chorus, but then goes on like a vibey space melt at the end, too. Really dreamy segue into twist. So it just. It just hit me again and again when I listened to it. But I really struggled between that and 4, 3, 22. Really struggled.

[RJ]

There's. There's more of like a 10. They build some tension in the build up to that gem.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's really nice. It's different. This one felt the most different than the other ones, but. And then I had 10, 27, 18 from Rosemont.

[RJ]

Brian, what do you got?

[Brian]

So I've got the three in a row that you have. 9, 1, 17, 10, 27, 18, and 4, 23, 22. I went a slightly different direction in the first jam I listed. As you know, I had 12, 31, 15 until this. This weekend.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I did an A B test and I ultimately went with a jam that I think best represents this song in its pure groove form. And that is 9, 2, 16.

[Megan]

I love this jam. That's what I was talking about in the beginning. That's the jam I was talking about when we were in the intro.

[Brian]

That. Yeah, I mean, it's just like. It gets into this, like, really interesting zone that I think we're gonna get into when we talk about a different song. I can just spoil something. We're doing 2001 in a couple of weeks. Okay. Get excited, get your friends involved. And one of the things about 2001 is like, every jam is 2001. There's no real type version of 2001. It's just kind of like a stretched out version of the groove. And I think one of the things that's so fascinating about this jam is that it stays relatively within no man in no Man's Land, but shows the edges and kind of pushes as far beyond it as possible. Does that qualify for Rushmore? There are no bylaws, so yes, I think that it does. My thought, because I considered 12, 28, 17 a very good friend of ours who, you know, kind of jabs at you every time you disagree with them and reminds you over and over again you have to do this thing that they like was like, you have to keep re listening to 12, 28, 17 until you get it. I was like, I'm not going to do that, but I'll give it another listen. And I did. And it would be akin to me of putting both TR and like Wilson on Rushmore, where you're like, okay, yeah, we get it. Like, we were an expansionist power in the early 20th century. Understood. Noted. Thank you, guys. To me, diversity of what? What, Rush? Diversity is a very light term here. These are white slave owning men. I understand, I get it. But like, you know, we have four very distinct IM of what America meant in its first century. And we have four very distinct images of what no man in no man's land means. And I think that you're absolutely right, Meg. 9117 and 122817 held way too much in common for me to have them on the list. Not disregarding it, but when I started to think about, okay, do I have an issue with the pre recorded stuff? Allegedly. Maybe loops, who knows? I had. The question kept emerging and I kept coming back to 9216 and the fact that this is like the band launching into a song that I said this at the top sounds like a jam and then turning that into this just like hypnotic, wild groove based jam that never really leaves. No man, I love it.

[Megan]

Well, that was my big question about it. Like I. So I had this on my list for so long and I wanted it there because what I was talking about at the beginning was this jam. It has such a strong perspective. It's so aggressive and driving. It is like the perfect example of just a jam that just has a complete mind of its own. It's like a runaway train. It's like get on and it's just going and it's just like off. But yeah, I felt like sometimes I'm looking like with Rushmore, I'm confused sometimes if I want it to be like you're saying, represent diversity or represent the best versions of it. I don't know. Or the most interesting or, you know, any way you want to delineate that. But I, I think this is where the debate makes sense, right?

[Brian]

I think this is where the debate goes. And I mean, our next Rushmore episode, like I'm. I'm just gonna preview it now. I'm. I'm struggling like crazy because there is, there's a lot of different. It's. It's diversity versus right and. And. Or versus best and I don't know that. I don't know the answer. Big shout out here, dad. You're abso right. Lincoln did not own slaves. I apologize for connecting him with our founding fathers in that sort of standpoint. I guess I was connecting in the sense of like, you know, TR started foreign wars. Lincoln has his own controversies, but you know, a purist minded president, if you will. This is not me trying to start a debate over Lincoln. I apologize, misspoke. So there are some bylaws, according to ForBen 777. Apparently there are.

[Megan]

Yeah, we're going to find them out as we go.

[Brian]

We are like America. We are building this as we go along. You know, we are creating mistakes. We can't do everything right, but we can do a lot of things right. And I think one of the things we can do right is give you all four versions of no man and no Man's Land to go and, and jam out too, because you absolutely should.

[Megan]

Brian, what were your honorable mentions?

[Brian]

I had one honorable mention for this song, and it was 1231 15. It's very deep in my heart and my soul. I just felt like I needed to do what was right.

[Megan]

My two honorable mentions were 9216 and 423 22. Both jams that I just think are amazing.

[RJ]

Which, which covers all of the versions, except. No, there are two others that we had. Um, they're all good. All eight of them.

[Brian]

They're great.

[Megan]

They're great.

[RJ]

The fan vote, we got a great comment here.

[Brian]

Hold on. We gotta read this. ECW. There's not enough 1.0. No man's listed. I, I, I would.

[Megan]

Wow.

[Brian]

I would kill, kill, would kill for that. Angry voicemail.

[RJ]

I love it.

[Brian]

Well done, ECW. Thank you.

[RJ]

We got. Okay. Fan vote was 1231, 15, 92 16, 91 17, and 1027 18.

[Megan]

Yeah, so totally.

[RJ]

You know, fans get it. There's no wrong unless. There's no wrong in this game, unless you're me, in which case, dude, most things wrong. Okay?

[Brian]

There's no wrong in this game unless you weren't there. Let's just, let's just put it out there. You know it's true.

[RJ]

Okay, so, guys, next we actually, Brian, I'm gonna just tell them what the next one is, because we have 30. Based on my count, we have 30 versions to listen to. So.

[Megan]

Good Lord.

[RJ]

I think we can just start it now because it's two weeks from now.

[Brian]

It's so bad. Yeah, Started so bad.

[Megan]

Oh, God. I'm gonna start tonight.

[RJ]

So we're doing down with Disease, and I'll tell you that the first version is 1231 93. So you can go back back to 1.0. For all you people who tuned out for this episode because we were talking about a 3.0 song. So just, you know, everyone be cool. We have. I'm pretty sure we have 30, right? Yeah, so we got 30 versions we got to listen to. I don't know. I mean, I think this. Can we just go beyond the. Can we just skip the lyrics every time?

[Brian]

You're gonna have to. I mean, this is like.

[Megan]

Don't you do that when you listen to them now? I always do. That and like, I don't.

[Brian]

I actually. I happen to like the first time.

[Megan]

You do it, the first time you listen. But when you're just listening to the jams. When I'm re listening, I just go ahead and listen to the jams.

[RJ]

No, I always go to all of them.

[Megan]

You do?

[Brian]

I. I did that with. When we did the tweezer draft. I knew that if I go to 5:35 every time I'm writing the jam.

[RJ]

Exam and I don't do that. Fuck.

[Megan]

You're giving yourself like four. I sometimes skip. Go around like 4:30. That's what I did.

[Brian]

I have since for the disease. Because this is slightly different. We are talking Rushmore here. We are talking about the song as well. Sorry to include more bylaws into this. I listen to the song, which adds more time.

[Megan]

It does add more time. I don't envy this week for you, Brian. That's going to be really tough.

[RJ]

Well, this is. I'm just saying I'm not sure that that is appropriate.

[Brian]

Go on. What's not appropriate?

[RJ]

Well, I just think you got to get this. You got to get the. The feel. You know, I. I can't. I can't jump into it.

[Megan]

I've listened to it before, but no, I've listened. It's not like I don't listen to the song. I listen to the whole song and the jam. But if I'm going in a being jams, then I'm not going to listen to the song too.

[RJ]

I do.

[Megan]

I have limited time, I guess. You're. Yeah, you just that.

[Brian]

Do you think Megan's doing enough work for the podcast at this point?

[RJ]

I think it's fine. I think it's fine. Okay, so here's the deal. I think jumping into a jam, like, I'm. I'm out to me, it's just because of my brain, like, being bad. It's like I'm. I'm like, I don't know. Where am I? I'm in the middle of a. I'm.

[Megan]

Just like, down with disease. And then you're 10 seconds into the jam. That's where you are. You literally heard Down With Disease, which you've heard. It's probably my number one played song. Like, you've heard it a lot. You know, I don't want to.

[RJ]

I don't want to hear it anymore. I don't want some of these 30 versions.

[Brian]

Have you heard the Vegas 04 version where Trey plays the solo in the wrong part of the song?

[RJ]

Yeah, I was there.

[Brian]

Really? Really. It's I was there too. We went all together. Did you. Did you buy mushroom chocolates from like a 12 year old? Yeah, out of the backpack.

[RJ]

Me too.

[Brian]

Transcendent stuff.

[RJ]

That's why I had to go sit out on the back steps. I left. I left the venue to sit down the steps of the Thomas and Mac Center. I had to go outside and sit.

[Brian]

For like that is.

[Megan]

That is intense when you have to leave. I've had to go.

[Brian]

Older lady asked my friends if I was okay because I was just like for the whole show. I like didn't say a word. Anyway, I'll just tell you guys this from a previous standpoint. Okay? I have three of the four set. Oh, okay.

[Megan]

You're well on your way. You're well on your way.

[Brian]

No, I'm not. Because this last one is so hard. This is the hardest version of Rushmore we have done to date.

[RJ]

If it's not Brian, if it was easy, everyone would do it.

[Megan]

That's so true.

[Brian]

Fair point. That's a fair point. I think about that every time. Every time you guys jump in my fake mentions.

[RJ]

All right, guys, listen. If you're listening to this, if you go to osirispod.com Rushmore right now, you can see the list of down with disease versions that you can vote on. We need your votes.

[Brian]

Can you give me that link again so I can post that for our friends who too?

[RJ]

Yeah. Osirispod.com Rushmore and I'm working on getting the.

[Megan]

The Live Fish playlist. RJ and I tested it like I posted it. He clicked on the link from my post and it worked fine. We messed with a bunch of stuff. I don't know what's going on. I don't know if people are clicking on it that don't have Live Fish. It's not working. I'm not sure, but we're working on it. Anybody wants to volunteer to be my tech Internet?

[RJ]

No, we. We couldn't figure it out. I don't know how. Ed with two Ds said that's going to be a lot. 12 hours of listening in two weeks. Okay, let me just. Just real quick before we leave. Okay, so let me just put my. Get on my calculator on my phone. 30 versions. Okay. So that's an extra 120 minutes to listen to. To the whole song every time.

[Megan]

So that's a lot of time.

[RJ]

Maybe I'll try it. But what if I come back? What if I come back and I'm like, I skipped all the song versions and then I picked versions that you guys are like, what are you doing? And I'll be like, I don't know. I didn't hear the whole song. What? I know. I just listen.

[Megan]

You'll listen to it once at least. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this. You listen to it once. It's not like I'm saying skip the song every time.

[RJ]

You have to tell me. You have to tell me things a lot. That's a. It's a problem. I have a lot of problems. All right, next week, guys, we are going to be. There's no homework. There's no. We're just. We're. We're gonna. I'm gonna come up with a topic for discussion. It's gonna.

[Brian]

You haven't come up with it yet?

[RJ]

No, dude, I'll give it to you by the morning.

[Megan]

Is RJ doing enough work for this podcast?

[RJ]

I'll do it the morning of. You guys will have at least one hour to prepare.

[Brian]

Who runs this podcast? What are you talking about? What is this?

[RJ]

We're. We're gonna. We're gonna do it. We're gonna. We're gonna discuss something and it's gonna be. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna take. Hopefully. We're gonna have voicemails. We're gonna have new reviews to talk about. We're gonna have some topics. I'm gonna come up with something great. So everyone just. Just, just tune in next week. And then we have down with disease in two weeks.

[Brian]

Do you need to be at the show? That is the question for next week, right?

[RJ]

Wow.

[Brian]

Is that it?

[RJ]

Wow.

[Megan]

Just watch us be angry the whole time.

[RJ]

Big, big question. Big question.

[Brian]

Easyw here says that Meg's employees are slack.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's so, so true.

[RJ]

Seriously, we. Yeah. Incredible perp. Nice to see you. We're going to do a live and figured out. It's gonna be great. You guys notice, over the past few weeks, I've been asking amazing questions that have just pushed us into uncharted territory. So we'll just keep. We'll just keep doing that. All right, I think that's it. Hope everybody has a good week. We'll see you back here next Monday. I believe we are doing that. So see you back here next Monday. Talk to y'all soon.

[Megan]

Bye, everyone.

[Brian]

Osiris.

[RJ]

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[RJ]

Find out how to get your Real [e-mail] RealID that's tsa.gov RealID or visit your local DMV and then you'll be cleared for takeoff.

[Lawrence Lanahan]

This is Lawrence Lanahan and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like part putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you choose? Take from it. Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune into Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more at rearrangedpodcast.

[Brian]

Com Osiris.