← Helping Friendly Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Can recruitment be beautiful? At lhh? We believe it can when it's rooted in purpose, not just process. We don't just match resumes to roles. We uncover once in a lifetime talent. We understand the skills you need so we can connect you with people who align with your vision and can deliver lasting impact. Discover a more human approach to hiring. Visit LHH.com beautiful recruitment, development, career transition LHH a beautiful working world Osiris.
- [00:41]
B
I'm here. Go, go. Live.
- [00:43]
A
You better not be arguing because we're live now. We can just argue in front of everyone instead of behind the scenes as usual. It's a very tough backstage situation we got here. Everyone's always fighting and then we try to kind of try to bring it together. For you guys. This is the Helping Friendly podcast, I think still after all this time. We're back. We got a jam packed show today, guys, so we don't, we can't do all this, like, how you doing? What's going on? Are the Phillies still five games ahead of the Mets? Stuff like that. We can't do all that today because, you know, we got too many things to talk about.
- [01:15]
B
Can I just say one thing?
- [01:19]
C
Yeah.
- [01:20]
B
The Cubs game on right here. We're in the middle of a five game series against the brewers, who are like I think 35 games ahead of us in the division, but. But there's a chance we could still catch them. And our young stud pitcher, Cade Horton went out in the second inning with a blister on his finger, which is like that is the season right now.
- [01:42]
C
Oh no. Is this going to be a full collapse when I'm at the game on Thursday? What's going to happen?
- [01:47]
B
I mean, it could be. August is never kind to Cubs or their fans. It's been kind like twice. Most other times it's filled with sadness and regret. But carry on. Let's talk about Signal Oasis.
- [02:00]
C
Well, the weather is going to be great, so I'm excited for the Cubs game anyway. And I'm going have a hot dog and other food. So I'm excited for that regardless of what happens. But I do have something, regardless, I do have something I want to say that might make you feel a little sad and regretful. Probably not. Probably not. But you know, last episode we were talking about how, well, Brian, you gave a beautiful monologue about the Boise bag, about why I shouldn't have taken it from you, why you deserved it in the draft. And I made a comment that, you know, I was surprised if I won that draft and of course I had But I was looking and saying that. You were saying that maybe I only won that draft because of the Boise bag. And I looked back at my list from that draft. Do you remember what I drafted in that. In that draft, Brian? Rj, do you remember?
- [02:52]
A
I. I mean, I just can't believe we're still talking about old drafts. This is insane.
- [02:56]
B
RJ comes into the draft, he makes his picks, he goes out.
- [03:01]
C
He has no idea.
- [03:03]
A
How would I know what either of you drafted? No idea. I don't even remember what I drafted.
- [03:07]
C
I can pull up if he remembers. But I will. I will read it to you right now because this is why I won that draft. I had the 97 Lakewood ghost. Yes, I had the set your Soul Free from October 17, 2021, San Francisco. Yes, I had the Boise. I was there hard enough to draft it. I had the Fukuoko Twist. I had the It Ghost. I had the 1230, 19 Tweezer. I had the 103195 Yum. Don't you? Eh, that the yum. Fine.
- [03:34]
A
But not the 103195 yam. Are you kidding me? Why were we even drafting you? Enjoy myself.
- [03:41]
C
Anyway. Then I also had the Woodlands Jam.
- [03:44]
B
Yeah, Woodlands Jam's nice.
- [03:45]
C
Yeah. So that list is why I won the draft, not because of just your precious Boise bag.
- [03:50]
B
I'm just saying, you had the 72397 ghost, which led to Ryan Storm voting for you probably 45 times. Because the two of you think that that's like the greatest jam ever, which it's a fine jam with like a 17 minute my soul jam on the back end of it.
- [04:05]
C
It is a great jam. I'm sorry you don't like to have fun and have funk jams in your shows. Maybe it's just because you weren't there in 97, Brian. You just don't know.
- [04:15]
A
Maybe you just don't like getting funky because you don't. I don't. I really don't.
- [04:20]
B
Can you stroke your chin to the funk? I don't think so, no. The funk is what brought me into fish. Don't come with me to that question. When someone was like this, like, hippie jam band from Vermont played funk music for an entire year, I was like, sign me up. I'm into it. Like, I'm done. I'm here. 7, 20, 23, 97 Ghost is not what won you that. That draft. The 6 14, 2000 twist. That's a good point. I'd forgotten about that. Great call. Amazing pick, Smart pick.
- [04:47]
C
Still, you're so free.
- [04:49]
B
That's a great jam with a great riff.
- [04:51]
C
21, the woodlands jam. Come on.
- [04:54]
A
Okay.
- [04:54]
B
Jam's very, very nice.
- [04:55]
A
So RJ is like, we gotta get back. I mean, I already. I already said we're not going to be talking nonsense. And now everyone, now we're off track. We're talking about old drafts we don't even like. Honestly, I don't even remember what draft you're talking about. So please don't say the name of it so we can move on.
- [05:09]
B
I could have this years ago, years ago, years ago.
- [05:12]
C
And I never. And I never throw it in your face. I just had to.
- [05:18]
A
You had to do the episode. Can we please do the episode?
- [05:21]
C
If you're going to slander 97 fish, then I'm going to have to do it.
- [05:25]
A
Okay, so here's what we're doing today. First, we're going to talk about Sigma, Oasis, Mount Rushmore.
- [05:31]
C
This is.
- [05:31]
A
We don't even know if Sigma Oasis is old enough to be on Mount Rushmore. Legally able, based on the bylaws, but it's happening right now. And then in about 30 minutes, we are going to be joined by two luminaries of the jam band world. We're going to be joined by Charlie and Andrew, who help. Well, one of them, I think Andrew is in charge of the jam charts on Fishnet and Charlie is in charge of, you know, reminding us about everything related to Fishnet. So they're going to join us and we're going to talk about jam charts. Brian has questions for them. I have questions for that. We all have. We're going to have a great conversation with them. So that's why I'm saying voicemails, can't do it right now, but please keep sending them, please. Just like I missed. I mean, I wasn't able to get to, I think one from this week. Just keep calling, keep calling us and keep telling us what you think, especially if it's good. That number is 484-416-0488. It's in the show notes, if you forgot. Okay, so one thing I do have to do, though. As I said, we won't talk about other stuff, but I will do that now. Brian, I have good news for you. If you want to see Reprise in Colorado, you will have your chance because tickets go on sale on Wednesday. They're playing two shows at Ophelia's in January, the 16th and 17th. We are going to Colorado. I mean, we. We as the royal, you know, our. Our team. I don't know if I am. But Brian, you. Are you going to go to one of those shows?
- [07:00]
B
I'll. I'll go to them both.
- [07:01]
A
My man.
- [07:02]
B
Come on, let's go get out here. We can go skiing and we can go to see some Reprise.
- [07:08]
A
Reprise. Reprise is coming to your town. If you live where Brian lives. There's a bunch of other shows coming up. I do want to say, I don't think we've mentioned this. They are going to be reprising on September 5th here in Philly, the 12.29.96 show from Philly. And so if you. If you're familiar with that show, which you probably are, you know that that means that there's another Tom Marshall sit in imminent. I'm going to try to talk to him about that somehow. Maybe, maybe do a little Instagram thing or something because, you know, you guys know Tom loves, loves getting up on stage, his favorite thing. So it's another chance for him to do his favorite thing, which is get on stage and sing in front of people. So there's a bunch of cool Reprise stuff coming up. Go to reprise band.com. oh, tomorrow, Tuesday the 19th, I guess that is. We're premiering the 4498 Island Tour Show. I think that was the best performed island tour show that they did. So that's on YouTube. So check out represse on YouTube. Okay. Brian, do you have anything to say about Sigma Oasis before we let me talk about the song? Do you want to talk. Do you want to say anything? Or should we just get straight into our amazingly cohesive format that we have adhered to thus far?
- [08:23]
B
I just want to say I think this is one of their best recent songs. I think it is, as a pure song, one of the strongest songs that they have written. I'm wearing my Warren Zevon shirt today because it sounds like fish channeling Warren Zevon. It's playful lyrically, it's sunny, but also has some kind of dark undertones. It strangely worked thematically, really well as, like, an anthem during COVID when the album came out and the song had debuted just prior to the onset of the pandemic. And then I think, as we're going to talk about here in the 4.0 era, it's really bubbled up as a really nice jam vehicle. It's got some really stunning improvisation, some thematic underpinnings that, that make some versions sound alike, others with subtle differences, which we'll talk about in terms of, like, what that means for the song as it evolves. But I think it's cool to catch a song like this only a couple years after debut, as it has emerged as a pretty promising jam vehicle in in kind of a unique manner for the band, and we still don't know exactly where it's going to go. So maybe in five years all four of these versions will be off because they'll have performed that many greater songs, which is kind of the the joy of podcasting. You get ahead of the.
- [09:48]
A
I don't know. I appreciate that. Megan, what do you want to say about the song?
- [09:53]
C
Well, personally, I'm someone who has a deep affinity for poetry, and I have a special place in my heart for fish songs that are really poetic, and I think this is one of them. You know, there's just some absolutely beautiful lines in this song that I just absolutely love. I think. Lines like birdsong invoking an echo of home, the breeze in the parlor, the bend of your knee Our ligaments falter, we scatter like art in furrows assemble what tides pulled apart. Those are absolutely beautiful. And Trey has said it rides a razor's edge between literal and poetic and can mean something really specific to people depending on how they want to interpret it. And that is my those are my favorite kind of lyrics. I also think that the song really represents the best of love and light dad rock, Trey, because it's mixed with a pop sensibility. It's such an uplifting song. Like you mentioned, Brian, it's really sunny. You roll the windows down, you turn it up loud. It gives you goosebumps. We have to listen to so many versions of this song when we are preparing for these episodes and this is one of the ones where I wanted to listen to the song part every time because just makes me happy. I love Sigma Oasis, but I have some history. Are you ready for that now or do you want to add on before I talk about that?
- [11:05]
A
Well, I just want to say that I asked Tom has visited Stone Harbor, New Jersey with me a few and when this song came out, I asked him if that second line of the song was was was in reference to that place that I that I took him to. And he did not deny it. So that means that really, that's cool. My favorite place is memorializing a fish song as far as I know. So that's all I wanted to add.
- [11:31]
C
I love that. Well, Sigma Oasis was written by Trey, Tom and Scott Herman, and it debuted during a Trey solo acoustic show in Boulder on December 15, 2018. This version was faster. It was in a had a different riff and were changing chords. But about a year later, it debuted with fish on Dec. 18, 2019, in Charleston in a much closer form to the Sigma Oasis we know today. But it did have a chorus that would later be dropped. Then it showed up in a few tab shows and finally in Mexico with Phish on January 21, 2020, just before the Pandemic. And I think it's actually impossible to talk about the song without talking about the pandemic. Brian, you mentioned it briefly that April 2020, it was only a few weeks into the Pandemic, and Phish announced that they're going to release their new album early and they're going to have a listening party on April 1st. And I remember where I was sitting in the mountains, escaping the pandemic and listening to this album and watching those black and white photos of the band recording the album and feeling really emotional because I was just so grateful to have this community during that time. And this song, you know, the album opens with it. It's so hopeful and optimistic. And right away, post Pandemic, this song emerges as a band favorite. They played it four times in the summer of 2021, and it has that new guitar riff opening at that point. It stretches out a bit at the Gorge that summer, and then it goes type two for the first time at Dick's in 2021. Then it spends a lot of time being a set opener, a closer in set two and. And is tied for the most played song in 2021 and 2022. It jammed a few times in the summer of 22 that we're going to discuss, I'm sure. But in 2023, it becomes more of a set one song. But recently it kind of goes either way, serving as either this uplifting show opener kind of energy injection, or as a launching pad for a pretty big jam. And it's been played 45 times, and since its debut, it's been played every four to five shows. There are nine entries on the jam chart, so it has a 20% chance of jamming. And Brian curated eight versions for us from 2021 to 2025.
- [13:44]
A
Wow. That is a comprehensive history. We even went back pre Pandemic. Bet y' all didn't know all that stuff. See, that's why. That's why Megan is the. The podcast. She is the podcast. She has the fans, she has the info. She. She has it all. Brian and I are just. We're just Windows.
- [14:02]
B
The Megan Friendly podcast with Brian and rj.
- [14:05]
C
Oh, yep, there you go.
- [14:07]
A
Featuring the Helping Friendly podcast featuring Megan, actually, we should do that on the logo. We should be the new logo.
- [14:14]
C
That is very disturbing.
- [14:16]
A
Be awesome with a picture too. Okay, Megan, I'm not. I'm not gonna beat around the bush here. We gotta. We gotta get going. We gotta just.
- [14:23]
C
Let's go.
- [14:24]
A
We got a high percentage hitter here. We have a bunch of versions to listen to and I gotta say, I texted you guys this. I don't know if it was like my brain this weekend or what, but. But to me, all these maybe just because we're listening to only 4.0 jam, so there's not a ton of differentiation in that sense. But I, like, felt like I was listening to one really long, like, four hour Sigma Oasis gem and I. I had a hard time, like, kind of narrowing it down in between the different versions. And I'm curious if you felt that way. But also, I want to hear what your first pick is.
- [14:57]
C
I didn't feel it as strongly as I felt sometimes with other songs. There's definitely like a classic Sigma jam, I think, in the way that it kind of launches out of the jam into like an uplifting, hopeful jam and then either goes like, with effects, somewhere darker or goes funky. That's how most of the versions, to me seem to go. And then they either kind of land back in the song well. Or end in a big peak. So I think they do follow a similar trajectory. Brian, do you agree?
- [15:26]
B
Yeah, I mean, I was definitely finding that there's one version I picked that really stands out stylistically.
- [15:35]
C
Yeah, same.
- [15:36]
B
The. The others feel part of the vibe of the song in a way that, like, makes me think in a couple years, if they start to break further away from it, like, we almost saw this with Fuego. The first probably like five to six Rushmore quality versions of Fuego felt like an extension of Fuego in almost like a type 1.5 way. And then now, over the last couple of years, we've had a couple fuegos that just completely break from the song and don't sound like it in any sort of way. So it'll be curious to see where Sigma Oasis goes. But I definitely agree, stylistically, it kind of reverts to like that Neil Young moment of like, you know, someone says they all sound the same and Neil goes, it's all one song. It's one vibe. You're already there, man.
- [16:30]
C
You're already there.
- [16:31]
A
We're already there. For Megan's first pick.
- [16:33]
C
Are you ready? Yeah. Well, for the first pick, we're going to an old American city that was Once one of the richest in the country, it's no longer as prosperous, but it is the insurance capital of the world. It's America's filing cabinet. We're going to summer 2022, that time of transitioning for fish. After a really strong fall 21, one of our top 10 tours of all time. We're going to summer some great jams, but also some low points. The summer of space funk and not as many really long jams. And I'm skipping over some good versions of Sigma Oasis. But we are starting with our first chiseling on the Sigma Oasis mountaintop in Gamehenge is 724 22, Hartford, Connecticut. We're going to late into set one with an almost 18 minute version of this song. This one has those soaring notes that send us off into the classic Sigma jam. Lasers kind of start coming into play. It's a really uplifting blast off into space. But the space that we're going to is really, really funky by seven minutes in the funk beat that they have is so tight. And Alabama 22 follows the same pattern, which I think kind of is what you're saying. RJ has some really great funk sections, but I think this one does it better. Really super effect, heavy space funk. So dancy, so fun. Sheets of sound, rich textures underneath the funk. And then it gets really melodic and Trey's just playing really delicately over that really tight groove that the rhythm section has. And it ends with an awesome hopeful peak. So that's my first entry for Sigma Oasis.
- [18:12]
D
Thoughts?
- [18:14]
A
I just want to just add there. One of my notes was that there's like a sound effect from Page, like halfway through that sounds like like scratching on sandpaper.
- [18:23]
C
Yes.
- [18:23]
A
And it just like kind of adds this like actual texture that sounds like a physical texture. Really cool. But yeah, everything else I think is. Yeah, it's a really good, really good version.
- [18:38]
B
This is an excellent version. Strange show coming off of a huge high point the night before in Bethel. And we got kind of the. I don't know, you got a lot of these like set lists during summer 2022 where it was just like you picked that song and then like a jam would happen and you'd like, forget about it. And then you'd be like, wait, you pick that song? Like that's the song we're following up with. That happens a lot throughout the show. Even though we featured this show in 40 for 40 because it has an outstanding third quarter as well. This jam reminds me a lot of the blaze on from 12:30:19 in that it just like previews where the band would go in set two. I picked a different jam from this time period, which we'll get into when we get into our sections. But I don't think this is the wrong pick because I really had this going back and forth in my head as one of my top four.
- [19:43]
C
Yeah, there's some versions that are very similar. I'm curious. I'm excited to hear what you picked. Later, right?
- [19:49]
B
Later.
- [19:50]
A
Not much later. Not much later.
- [19:53]
C
We're moving today.
- [19:56]
A
Hey, look. Yeah, we're ready. I mean, listen, if there were people, you know, standing on the. Outside the door here knocking, they're like, we're ready. Hey, we're here. You know, I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to keep traffic moving. That's all I'm doing. That's my only job here.
- [20:11]
B
So RJ has listened back to every one of our episodes and figured out how much fat is in each episode and is trying to trim it. All right now, live on tv.
- [20:21]
A
Yep, that's what I do. That's what I do most, is listen to these episodes. Megan, what do you got? What else you got?
- [20:29]
C
All right, for our second stop, we're going just down the east coast a little bit to where Trey and Tom actually wrote this song. We're going to Las Vegas on the east coast. Immortalized in one of my favorite Springsteen songs. Of course. We're going to Atlantic City to a run. I stayed in a very depressing, serial killer vibe hotel room. It cost a small fortune, but I only slept about three or four hours a night because I. I was attending after shows and waking up early to prep for HF POD live events on the boardwalk. I got to interview Tom for the first time. It was like a teenage dream come true. It was just a special time for me. It was kind of a coming out party for me and HF POD events. And it was awesome. And we're going to stay in summer 2022. Tonight 1-8-5, Atlantic City. A killer show. I'm sorry, RJ. I know you came the next day, but it was, it was. It was still awesome.
- [21:18]
A
Sure did.
- [21:20]
C
We're going again to late in set one to an over 20 minute jam. This is the first Sigma to break 20 minutes. It really, to me, establishes the classic melodic Sigma jam. Like right away when this jam starts off and then it builds an intensity and depth and Trey and Mike are using effects, but there's this moment in the jam when Trey is peaking and he's just building these beautiful Soaring peaks. And Fishman, like, I was saying it was double time, but I was talking to my friend Kieran Edwards, friend of the pod, who was like, that is like a complete tempo shift. It's not even like a double. Isn't even like, right. It's like quadruple maybe, I don't know. But it's just. He just pumps the tempo so hard and the jam just completely takes off. And I can't think of another time when they're in the middle of a peak like that and Fishman does something like that. It's so awesome. Paige gets on the organ and it just moves. It ends in a rocking little jam, too. And I just think this jam has incredible flow and is super interesting because of that moment.
- [22:23]
B
Yeah, this is on my list, unquestionably. I have very vivid memories of Couch during the show, knowing I was seeing Fish one weekend later and being like, oh, they have finally turned the corner. I am in for it. Alpine Fish is going to.
- [22:41]
C
Oh, no.
- [22:42]
B
Dick's Fish is going to absolutely smoke. I mean, this show, 8, 5, 22. I think that this is the best show of 2022. Sorry, RJ. Megan just left Spock the day before night three. So, you know, we all make mistakes. It happens.
- [22:56]
C
We all make mistakes.
- [22:58]
B
But, yeah, I mean, this. That moment, like, 14 minutes in, it's a really good, breezy jam. It's kind of the ideal second quarter jam in that it still retains the Sigma vibe, but it is, like, definitely jamming. And then it does something like it. It takes a right turn that you're like, whoa. I was not expecting that to happen. And it just. It blows. Blows the mind. Fantastic stuff.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah. I think that, like, the breakdown, you know, it's just. It's. There's so much funk in this. In this version that, I mean, it's like a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, like, the. The kind of tempo changes is. Is pretty. Pretty crazy. It's pretty chill for a while, and then it kind of just like. Yeah, it's. It's a great version. No, no notes. No notes for you, Megan.
- [23:54]
C
Great.
- [23:54]
B
Very bad. Very little feet, you know, just like. Yeah, this is what you want Fish to be doing late in the first set. Like, you don't need to go dive so deep into, like, interstellar space, but just give us. Give us a ride like this. This is what we need.
- [24:09]
C
Yeah. Mustard.
- [24:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, these are. I don't know. I wish I had more, like. I wish I had more notes for you, Meg, but I just don't don't. At this. At this time.
- [24:21]
C
I don't know. Maybe I'm just doing a good job. That's great. Perfect.
- [24:24]
A
Fishman cranks the tempo. There we go. Miles. Miles, read it. That's probably not.
- [24:30]
B
You wish you were at this show, rj. Where does that fall for you in terms of regrets in your life?
- [24:36]
D
Low.
- [24:37]
A
Low.
- [24:39]
C
There was a tweezer the next night, right? It was the next night or the night after that. I remember. And I was kind of bummed because we didn't get to like hang out during that tweezer. And I was disappointed about that. But I remember it was the summer that we saw that. The Raleigh show.
- [24:53]
B
Yeah. That was a week.
- [24:55]
C
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
- [24:59]
A
I swear, my. I really literally have one fish regret and it's not going to Big Cypress. And that's it. That's everything else, like.
- [25:05]
C
Yeah, that's my disagree too.
- [25:08]
A
That was dumb, you know, no regrets, as they say. As Tim Riggins would say. All right, we're going to number three. We're doing it. We're just doing it right now.
- [25:20]
C
Okay. You ready for three?
- [25:22]
A
Yeah, I am. I'm ready.
- [25:25]
C
Okay, great. So I'm skipping over some great versions, but I'm heading out west. I'm heading to the Front Range, to the eastern edge of the Rocky Mountains. I think that's correct because I'm learning all my western geography because I've read Lonesome Dove.
- [25:39]
B
You got it?
- [25:40]
C
I got it. I'm going to a gorgeous part of the country, to a favorite venue of our esteemed co host, Mr. Brian Brinkman. A venue I think all of us hope the band returns to. We're going to Dick's Sporting Goods in Commerce City, Colorado. The end of summer tour going to August 29, 2024. This time that we're going to the middle of the second set to a version that's just over 19 minutes. And this one is different. This version to me is different than the others. It's so rhythmic and effect heavy. It's super tight. And Fish is hitting with such a sharpness in this jam and he's driving it with so much authority. And it made me think a lot about something that you were talking about, Brian, when we wrapped up summer tour this year, that you were talking about how Fishman was playing. And when you listen to his playing in this jam from last summer, you can hear the difference. A massive difference. There's kind of a clunky re entry into the song, but I still think the jam holds up. I love that it has A different structure and kind of shows the diversity in some of the jamming that is available in Sigma Oasis.
- [26:45]
B
I think you nailed it. This is on my list. Absolutely. For all the reasons you said. The only thing I will add is this is where the other versions feel very classic rock. Windows down. Classic rock jam that you just pump up and you're like, arms are out and you're just. You're excited, you're loving life. This is like fish channeling TV on the radio. It's kind of cd. It's got like New York urban kind of club undertones to it. Like feels like 2006, you know, like a grimy like indie rock show. Then I'm super into it. This is the jam that I think shifted Dick's 2024 from like, oh, this is fun and respectable to oh man, I think things are about to get really serious and they would drop a 20 plus minute pillow jets right after. And the next two nights are two of my favorite shows I've ever seen and just deep, deep, deep jamming. So this, this really changes the trajectory of the run in a big way.
- [27:50]
A
Yeah, I mean this is, this run is, is awesome. I think the. It's really interesting that like, this is probably the one that sounded different in that, you know, very long Sigma Oasis jam that I was listening to.
- [28:02]
C
Yeah.
- [28:02]
A
And you know, for like 20 minutes you get. You get kind of like a really light section and then I don't know, it's like. I don't know. It is. It is like more patient compared to some of the others, which I like.
- [28:20]
B
Very patient. Like they're, they're not afraid to like leave Sigma completely.
- [28:25]
C
Yeah.
- [28:26]
A
Which I guess is like getting, you know, at a, at a run like that. Like the first night, it's just like everyone just chill. Was that the first night they did or did they do Wednesday that year?
- [28:38]
B
No, this was night one. Extremely under, extremely undersold show. The most noticeably undersold Dick show I've ever seen. I ended up talking with some people who work at Dick's and I was like, this isn't going to prevent them from coming back. And they're like, we hope not, but we need more of you guys to show up for sure. Yeah.
- [29:02]
C
Interesting.
- [29:02]
B
Great, great stuff. I want to make just a historical note really quickly, please. I should have said this. Yes, I should have said this last week, but Arjun was trying to cut the fat of the end of the episode and moved us onto library card as quickly as possible. Last week, how long was the episode?
- [29:18]
A
Like an Hour and a half at least.
- [29:21]
B
That's like a short compared to most podcasts nowadays. What are you talking about? You know, we got to get to like the four hour mark before we start influencing politics. Okay, so you guys want to do.
- [29:33]
A
Some jams in this world?
- [29:34]
B
Let's like, keep talking.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah, like jams. Like, what can an hour and a half podcast even do? Like, not much, you know, not much that long. Just to get going.
- [29:42]
B
A fair point. You're not even letting me get to my point right now because you're just loving to trim the. You're just loving to work it. You're working it, baby. Last week's final ACDC bag. August 11th, 2024 was our first 2024 jam. Was it Mount Rushmore?
- [29:59]
C
Wow, that's exciting.
- [30:00]
B
This is now number two. So we are starting to get to the point where we are. We are in the moment, in the era, making the historical argument for how great current fish is. I just want to note that.
- [30:13]
C
I love that. I don't think I realized that. That's so cool. I. I like seeing the. The widespread, if possible, because it's nice. It. I think it honors what they're doing.
- [30:23]
B
Agree.
- [30:27]
C
Okay, are you ready for. For the fourth one?
- [30:30]
A
Yeah, I'm ready.
- [30:30]
C
We're doing really good podcasting. We're reading what people are writing and then we're not reading it out loud.
- [30:35]
A
We're not reading it out loud because.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah, there's not enough time.
- [30:40]
A
So many good people in the chat. Thank you. Okay, go ahead, Megan.
- [30:43]
C
Okay, final version of Mount Rushmore. We are moving ever closer to the present. We're staying out west. We're heading to the City of Roses, known for its access to gorgeous waterfall hikes, rainy climate, craft beer, giant bookstores, liberalism gone wild. We're going to Portland, Oregon, and the band's first appearance there in over 25 years. A great show landing late in the first set to this over 20 minute jam. This Sigma at April 20th for 202025 in Portland is dramatic and urgent. Right away we get some really emotional bliss peaks with some of that 2025 goodness from Trey. My God. Let me just tell you, when you listen to a lot of peaks, you know, Sigma Oasis jams often peak in bliss. And when you listen to a lot of them, and you've been listening to 2025 fish, it is hard not to compare them to how emotional and how beautifully Trey is playing them right now. And so it was a treat to listen to some 2025 bliss peaks in this jam. I love how Mike covers the transition to another really intense building section. It builds to this really swirling crowd cheering peak that is just the goods and adds a perfect drop back into the chorus. So that's my final version.
- [32:03]
E
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info and if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. Lifelock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply this is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. And we're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniments like horns and strings. Or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@rerangedpodcast.com.
- [33:38]
A
I'm Cyrus.
- [33:45]
B
This is on my list too. Everything you said, we got cordal tray, an active mic, we got a big peak. This reminds me probably the closest of the 8522 version from Atlantic City. Some slightly different choices here, but like, it feels like a stronger band playing that jam. Like a band that just like seems to know each other and understand each other. Playing a very similar style, just as affecting jam, but also, you know, a band that I think we would all agree that the 2025 version is supreme here. And so you get this just like these full, like fully formed riffs from Trey in a way that we wouldn't have heard a couple of years prior. It's phenomenal.
- [34:42]
A
Hey guys.
- [34:45]
B
Hi rj. Meg, what else do you have to say about this jam?
- [34:53]
C
I think it's just nice that we have a 2025 jam up here and I think, is this our first 2025 jam on Mount Rushmore?
- [35:00]
B
Brian, this is our first 2025 jam to be featured on Mount Rushmore. Sigma Oasis. You're already there.
- [35:08]
C
You're already there, and I love that this song is bringing us there. Brian, I want to hear your list.
- [35:15]
B
So let me post up here on the screen so everyone can see. 7, 24, 2285-228292-44025. That is the official Rushmore list that will go in there. I have three out of the four. Same with you. I almost had the exact list with you, but I ultimately chose to go with 5, 28, 22 as my first one. It was that between that and 724, ultimately, one of my biggest critiques of 2022 in the moment was the lack of Mike. And I was really surprised that he really leads the groove right out the gates here. And I thought it was a very cool showcase of where Mike was at at this point in time and how impacting the band overall, even, you know, when he wasn't as dynamic as he is maybe today. There was that synth pedal riffing from Trey, like, really heavy synth pedal riffing, which is just so emblematic of the way the band was playing in late 21 and early 22. It's kind of like a guide to how you find a glorious peak in rock jamming. And it kind of sounds to me like a sunnier version of Steely Dan. It's not nearly as tight as you would expect from the yacht rockers, but it's got that kind of like, you know, dorky, intellectualized rock approach that Fish sometimes masters really nicely and just hit. So I did 528 instead of 724, and then 8, 5, 22, 8, 29, 24, and 4. 2025. Just like yourself.
- [36:52]
C
Yeah, I love that Alabama version. It's, like, really nice how it goes from, like, super funky and then just takes on that honest, really hopeful vibe and kind of ends in that place that Sigma starts in. It's a really satisfying jam. I had that in my honorable mention. I also had the Dicks from 21 and the 23 Star Lake. Those were kind of my three honorable mentions, but honestly, that's kind of like all of them, so there's not that many yet.
- [37:18]
B
The Dicks 21 1. I love that version. I did not have it in my honorable mentions. I love it. RJ was at that show. We did an awesome, huge live podcast outside in the Dick's lot that day. We had Tom hanging out in our section. We had, like, 25, 30 people in my Favorite section at Dick's. And I think that that show holds up really nicely. The.
- [37:45]
D
The.
- [37:45]
B
The catapult. It was my first catapult since 7 1803. Really good. This is a huge compliment coming from me. Really good meat stick. Nice little 11 minute Ruby waves. We got bliss in that show. Like, we just had some very, very cool stuff happening. Great mc, that one. I was very into that show. Great way to end an awesome summer tour.
- [38:11]
C
Yeah, I like this version too. It's really watery and delicate how it starts out and then it gets kind of like murky and darker and it has a little bit of like a directionalist vibe, but I like it. And it really fades into like that really soft space at the end. I like that jam first jammed out Sigma.
- [38:28]
B
That was it. Rj, what do you got?
- [38:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, I had. I. I think I had that 9, 5, 20, 21, 8, 22, 8 5, and then the 420.05.
- [38:44]
B
So you skipped 8, 29, 25, 25.
- [38:48]
A
Yeah, I'm not sure why. I listened to it a couple times and it just didn't. Like, didn't. I mean, mostly because that in the 420, 25 versions back to back, like, I just. I think that one from the spring is just, you know, the peak is phenomenal. They're like that descending rift from Trey as they build toward the end is like awesome. There's just like moments in there. I'm just like, this. This is so. I think maybe it was just because I listened to those back to back, but. So I guess we have like almost all of them represented somewhere. Definitely. And definitely not.
- [39:19]
C
Pretty much. Yeah.
- [39:21]
B
I think it's good. It speaks to. The interesting thing about a new song being featured here is that we're. There's still a lot of debate. I think that like when we return and do Rushmore Part 2 In the early 2000-30s, it'll be interesting to see what we have, what we got right, what we got wrong, what held up via time.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah.
- [39:41]
C
What's going to be surpassed by bigger jams.
- [39:45]
A
Yeah, we had. Was there anything from this tour that would have been on the list?
- [39:51]
C
No, but we did have to add this April 20th because Brian had created these lists prior to 2025. And so, yeah, we had to go back and add some.
- [40:01]
A
But nothing from. Nothing from Summer.
- [40:04]
C
I don't remember. Brian, what do you think? You remember anything?
- [40:07]
B
No, there's no summer. Let me just pull up. I don't think I have a.
- [40:16]
D
I.
- [40:16]
B
Don'T think I have a Sigma from this year, other than the one from Portland. I'm just double checking now because it would have made this larger list. Sigma, like Megan said, it really does this interesting job of balancing being a show opener or a set opener that's like a solid eight minutes. There's a great call out here from Miles Reddit for the Bangor 22 simple shout out to Sam Timberg. Two of you need to hang out at a show because nobody has spent more time over the last two years trying to convince me of the greatness of the Bang or simp Sigma Oasis, which is good. It's good, it's good. But it was not going to make this list. But definitely a shout out there to. To fans of that version. Kind of cool, spacey version that caps off the disease. But I don't know, Sigma either really, really hits as a jammer or serves as like, what Down With Disease would do in 1994, where it's just like, fish can riff with the best of them and don't need to jam and then you get a song like this that, like, is a classic rock riff and then, you know, expands into a jam in some really fascinating ways.
- [41:41]
A
I just want to say we do have Andrew, who's going to come talk to us, the fans here. You, all you people who listen to this podcast, you're the most important part of this after Meg. So thank you guys, as always, for voting and. And for just being part of this. The fan vote was 9, 5 21, 8, 5 22, 8 29, 24 and 4 2025. So kind of a mix of a little bit of a mix of all of ours.
- [42:11]
C
Mm.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah.
- [42:13]
C
It was fun doing a new song.
- [42:15]
B
5:28,22 was their first one.
- [42:18]
C
No, they had the.
- [42:19]
A
No.
- [42:19]
B
Oh, they had dicks. Okay.
- [42:21]
A
Okay.
- [42:21]
B
So kind of a mix of all of ours.
- [42:23]
C
Yeah.
- [42:23]
A
Yeah. And everyone should. Should keep. Keep voting. I'm gonna just. Sorry, do you. Did I cut you off?
- [42:32]
C
No, it's fine.
- [42:34]
A
Okay. We are going to make a new. A new version of the Mount Rushmore chart right now. This is a big one. Is for next week. And actually, is it not next week, Ryan? Do we actually have two weeks next week?
- [42:50]
B
We have a draft next week. We are drafting shows and jams two weeks from now. We're coming back from Rushmore with an RJ pick of a gigantic fish stomp. Like, one of the biggest, like, fish songs in the history of fish songs. With so many big versions. What are we doing, rj?
- [43:08]
A
Huge. Huge. Many people are saying it's the biggest fish song there is. We are doing ghost. Guys. It's really getting serious.
- [43:20]
C
Oh, my God. That's gonna be hard.
- [43:22]
A
I know it's gonna be hard. I have. I was thinking today that if. If I had to do it, like, right now, which we. We could if we want to, it would be rude to Andrew, who's waiting. But, like, I think I know what I would pick. You know, right now, like, I think I would be able to name the four that I would put on Mount Rushmore. And I'm curious if that's going to change after going through and listening to all of them. So I'm. I'm curious. Brian, I know you've probably already done this a long time ago, but did your opinions change as you did the.
- [43:48]
B
Listen, I have one version that I think might make the list, but I have. I have four definite. And then one, like, can this push any of these out? And I don't know if it necessarily can. And similar to what you suggested, rj, I always go in. I have a small group of confidants that I text my four predictions to, which you guys are not, unfortunately.
- [44:17]
A
I know we're not even confidants because we have to.
- [44:21]
B
We have to share this on air. I would love to go through this with you guys, but that's just not how the show works. Megan made the rules. We follow the rules. You know, this is Megan show. We have to just do exactly what will make her nice. We can't actually talk about these jams.
- [44:36]
C
No. Because it's nice to have a little bit of excitement and not know what we're going to pick and be able to bounce off of that. Otherwise, that's part convinced by, you know, your ideas and be like, oh, maybe I should do that.
- [44:47]
B
That's like, we don't. None of us want to influence each other. You're absolutely right.
- [44:50]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [44:51]
B
So that's true.
- [44:52]
C
I don't want it.
- [44:53]
B
But I texted my group of confidants and I said, I think that these are my four versions, and we're pretty much there. The best part, I will just say before we transition to the jam part or jam chart aspect of this episode is unquestionably. Three days before we record a Rushmore episode, RJ texts us and goes, I don't know. They all kind of sound the same.
- [45:18]
C
It's so true. Meanwhile, I've been, like, listening to them for, like, six days straight, just, like, on loop, taking, like, notes, like, wild. Just, like, getting into the nitty Gritty of them. It's so amazing.
- [45:29]
A
It takes all kinds, guys. That's what life is all about.
- [45:33]
C
And I was draft the Dick's draft episode document yesterday and I just see like Brian's icon pop up and I'm like, oh, no, Brian. Brian's in the dick's draft document too. I better get out of here. So he doesn't know that I'm in here working on this.
- [45:50]
B
Yeah, I can't wait for that episode.
- [45:52]
A
Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be fun. You know, it's not too serious. Like all of our drafts. It's not serious. It's just all for fun.
- [46:00]
B
All of it.
- [46:00]
A
We'll be back. We'll be back. Okay. So thank you all for listening. If you go to osirispod.com Rushmore you can see the ghost picks now. We're gonna have two weeks. Voting's gonna be open. Let's make this a. A record. Let's make this a record voting voting block here. Okay? We are gonna bring on now without further ado. Wait, maybe we should do some further ado. We're really good at further ado. Maybe we won't. We won't. Okay. Andrew, what's up? Andrew, how's it going, man?
- [46:34]
D
He's muted.
- [46:35]
A
How are you? And we're. Andrew, muted. Hi, Andrew.
- [46:40]
F
We're good.
- [46:41]
A
All good. All good. And we have Charlie. That's Charlie's voice. If you've listened to Fish over the past, you know, 30 or so years, you've heard Charlie's voice and you've read his, you've read his opinions, whether you want to or not. Hi, Charlie.
- [46:53]
D
Hi. How are you?
- [46:55]
A
Great. Thank you guys for joining. Yeah, happy to be here.
- [47:00]
D
You're welcome.
- [47:04]
C
Thanks, guys.
- [47:05]
D
Seriously.
- [47:06]
A
Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. This has been a long time in the making. We've, we have, we have made it difficult to schedule. It's my fault. But we are here now and we're here because we, we talk about the Jam charts on every episode and we, we, we treat, I think we treat the Jam charts like a, like a sibling or something. You know, we kind of are like, we couldn't possibly live without the Jam charts. And then we also kind of pick on the Jam charts. So, you know, but, but in like a loving way. Because first of all, we all know because I help with some fishnet stuff, not the gem charts, but like, it's all volunteer and it always has been. And you know, the work that goes into maintaining the largest, you know, database of Fish information is, you know, it's a labor of love. Charlie, how long have you been involved in this effort?
- [47:54]
D
It is since the beginning. The, the Jam charts started in 1994 or so when I started reviewing, if you could call it that, more, more, I think more apropos, probably bullshitting about tweezers and mic screws and you enjoy myself. I just started rating them and listening to them and reviewing them zealously as I got tapes of them throughout the mid-1990s. And those reviews, for better or for worse, inspired others to review versions of Fish songs. Tim Wade I think did Reba, Benji Eisen I think did Bathtub Gin and oh, why am I blanking on his name. Ian I think maybe did Harry Hood. And so those got a lot of attention in the 1990s. And then when we McElroy foundation started to create the Fish Companion, the first edition, the Jam charts sort of changed a little bit in that we got a larger team together and individuals were contributing to various songs charts for purposes of publishing them in the book. And as we make, or at least as we try to make clear, the Jam charts that made it into the Fisk Companion, first and second editions were really primarily designed. Each chart was designed and created by one person with help of a few others, you know, obviously including me, but I mean at least a few others. And some of them I think, had even three or four contributors to them as noted in those books. But they were, those charts were really versions that were appreciated by those particular people who had heard them on tape or on cd. They were not intended to be all inclusive. And of course, unfortunately, just given the nature of the beast, a lot of folks thought, oh well, these guys have heard all the versions that circulate out there and these are the best. It's like, well, no, those are the best ones or remarkable versions that the folks who did that chart had heard. And to give you an example of that, there was a version of you enjoy myself from 1992 that was sort of discovered within the last few years that hadn't circulated well on tape. That was an excellent version. I think it was November 20th something. And I added a description about that to, to the chart, you know, myself like last year, you know, so that was one that, you know, would have been a glaring omission 20 some odd years ago if someone knew about it, you know, and that's the thing, it didn't circulate well. And so someone, you know, didn't know about it. And then Phil Harrison, he and Adam, sheinberg They sort of transformed the jam charts from where they were at the Fish companion, the first two editions back in 2010, 2011, that period into what people see, not quite what people see on the site now, but they put all the jam chart data into Google Docs, which then became data into the the site. And Tim Wade also helped a great deal in entering that data and Peter Skews Cox also helped enter that data. But basically like I want to say 2012, 2013, that's when sort of the, that's when people could start using the jam charts on the site that they, that you can, you know, to the same degree that you can use them now like you could do, you could search them by tour venue, obviously saw name, but also year and even by day, month and day. I don't know if you've ever done that, but that's pretty cool because if you have a birthday, you can see all the jam charted versions of something on your birthday, but also by username. So you can see all the versions that are charted, that were charted from shows you've seen or someone. I think you can do it even by someone else's username. But anyway, so you know, that sort of early chart process was really different to what it is now because back then there wasn't really a team of people listening to everything and like rating them tour by tour as there is today. And back then, about 12 years ago, it was really just, you know, these static Google documents where the versions listed were listed only because, you know, a handful of people at most had decided they were remarkable and worth putting in the chart. But since Andrew Staveley joined in, approximately 2012 is when he started helping, right? Andrew? I think it was 2012 when he started helping and then he was working on some individual songs, listening to everything and revising the charts for those songs. He. I want to say that the team, I think at least as I remember it formed into what is now, you know, the team that review that reviews and rates everything that Fish plays. Like as the tour is going along, we give a yes or a no on whether something charts or an M, which means basically we're not sure and you know, we have to talk among ourselves and see if we can convince someone to change their vote. But, but basically like it was around, I want to say 2014, 2015, that the, the team truly formed. And at that time it was, it was Andrew and Peter Skus Cox, Phil Harrison and Tim Wade and myself. Does that sound right, Andrew? So that's sort of a Segue into. Yeah, the Andrew era. The last decade.
- [54:20]
F
A whole era.
- [54:21]
A
Yeah. Andrew, Andrew, tell us about the. Tell us about your era. Tell us about how you got involved and, and, and, yeah. Any thoughts to add to what Charlie was saying?
- [54:31]
F
Well, like Charlie said, I did start working on individual songs in 2012. Back then it wasn't the team approach, you know, listening and commenting, voting on everything. It was down to individual chart generators. So I worked on a few of the early iterations of Tube and Sand and Fee and a few others. So I did that for a few years, helping out where I could. And then I was asked, I think it was 2015, asked by Phil Harrison to join the team full time. And that's kind of when we got started in earnest, working as a team, considering everything together.
- [55:11]
A
Awesome. Well, thank you guys again for all the work and I hope everybody knows how much we appreciate it. But I think at this point, Brian, do you have thoughts or do you want to get into it? Do you want to kick us off?
- [55:24]
B
Yeah, I share RJ's thoughts. There's no way that we could do our show without Phish Net as a whole. I think for the purposes of what we try to do here, the jam chart tends to serve as a guide in terms of building out our various drafts, building out our various projects, be it Mount Rushmore. I think when we were planning out some of the. Definitely when we were planning out top 25 tours, we would go through the jam chart to really identify, like, what do we need to be listening to on a tour by tour basis. So you guys do the Lord's work in terms of, you know, really documenting where this band has been at, at their strengths. I'm curious, you know, it sounds like from what you guys were describing.
- [56:19]
A
You.
- [56:20]
B
Know, a lot of this started with one individual listening to versions and saying, this definitely needs to be up here. It's much more of an organized process. Now you said that as you guys go through each tour, you're like, this is a jam that we're going to be reviewing. This is not. This is a maybe one that like immediately jumped out to me. Just, I think a good, like springboard here, the Super Bowl Mount. We've got like a seven and a half minute, eight minute version of the song that I think we would all argue doesn't necessarily jam. But it is notable. It's very notable. I mean, it's some of my favorite playing that Trey had in summer 2011 and really to that period in 3.0. And I think it's like One of those songs that probably should be on a list of some sort. But I'm curious, maybe, Andrew, you know, you could speak to this. Like, how do you decide on a version like that, you know, when it is kind of technically speaking, just diverting from mound for like 30 seconds and then coming right back to it. How does that for you kind of distinguish a jam chart version versus something.
- [57:26]
F
Else for that mound in particular? No, it's not a long type 2 jam, but it's certainly objectively different than, I think every other version of Mound played to date. Totally a great Trey solo in it at the end. So with the song, with. I think of a lot of times in terms of what's the bar for this song? Yeah, Weezer has a super high bar. Ghost disease Mound. If you do anything a little bit different, I mean, if we get another set, an eight minute mound that does something just out of the ordinary, it's probably going to chart.
- [58:02]
B
Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean. Go ahead, Charlie.
- [58:05]
D
Well, I was just going to say, I mean, that's the Watkins Glenn one. Right? So, yeah, that's. And I just checked because I thought we did chart that and we. And not only did we chart it, but it's the only version of Mound that charted. And. And again, the reason for that is because Mound's not a jamming tune first and foremost. Like, it's not a song that typically improvises and has improvised or, excuse me, has been improvised on in the past. And. But that version was remarkable. And there was a time, which isn't really the present time, when the charts really were intended to also note remarkable versions, even if they were remarkably bad and remarkably awful. Like some versions from, you know, that Amsterdam show in the mid-90s, that was just, you know, dog, basically.
- [58:52]
C
And, you know, very fun, though, as someone who was there was very fun.
- [58:55]
D
Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there were drugs involved, obviously, for a little bit, but no, it's like one of the worst played shows, you know, ever in the history of music. But it's. But hilariously so. But the charts back then actually did note versions that were remarkable, even for a silly reason like that. Whereas now, because the set lists have song notes and show notes that we can easily tell someone if a song had to be repeated, the beginning had to be repeated, like him, or something unusual happened in it. Someone sat in, for example, stuff like that. Versions like that won't necessarily chart these days because the set list have shown notes and stuff like that. And so they won't chart. You Know, just because they're remarkable. Nowadays, versions will chart. And Andrew, correct me if, if I'm wrong, but I believe we only chart versions that get at least four yeses. Out of six of us. There's.
- [60:00]
F
It's a majority.
- [60:01]
D
Yep. Yeah. And other team members, you know, there's Brendan and Josh, Cohran and Paul and Rich, Liza. So like there's six of us now on the team. And Anthony Kim, noob 100 on. On fishnet forum.
- [60:17]
B
He.
- [60:18]
D
He was a member a couple years ago, if I remember correctly. But I mean, it's like we all listen to everything. You know, sometimes it's the. The voting is really funny in that it, you know, usually it's everyone's an N or everyone's a Y. Usually.
- [60:36]
C
Yeah.
- [60:37]
D
But it's like because, because, you know, as you would expect, I'm sure that's probably true among the three of you, but it's just, you know, it's funny sometimes because, like, there's been times when I've been. Believe it or not, the only why, you know, and I have to like, is am I going crazy? You know, like, you know, I'm supposed to be the most critical person and yet here I am like, like thinking that a version of, you know, hey Stranger is like the greatest one ever. And so. And. And on that point, actually, hey Stranger does not have a jam chart. And I'm presently lobbying the team is Andrew. As Andrew knows, I'm lobbying to. For it to have a jam chart because I believe that some versions this summer are just too good. Not for it not to have a jam chart. It's just got to have a jam chart. And you know, but this. And I think I'm punching the eye, I think doesn't have a jam chart, but there are several versions, this song this summer that had extended intros. So I think we have to.
- [61:35]
C
Yeah.
- [61:36]
D
Isn't that right, Andrew? I think we have to start it.
- [61:38]
F
That is right.
- [61:39]
D
Jam chart. Yeah. So. So that's the thing. It's a. It's a democratic process. You know, it, you know, we, we. The version. The. The descriptions that get added, you know, after a tour is over based on the votes. The descriptions that get added to the site for the versions that are charted, those are written by a volunteer on our team and usually I think written by, you know, Andrew. I think you do you do you write most of them these days.
- [62:10]
F
No, we go for a pretty even split amongst the team.
- [62:13]
D
Yeah. And. Well, not me. I don't. I'm not as helpful as I'm. Yeah, it's like, I'm not very. I'm not really that helpful.
- [62:21]
F
You have a marriage status.
- [62:23]
D
Exactly. I. You know, my descriptions are insane anyway, though they try not to allow me, I think, to write some of the descriptions that I've written. But it's, you know, on that note, actually, you know, Brian, we would actually like to invite you to be a team member, you know, if only temporarily, for the upcoming shows in September, just so you can see the process yourself and actually just wow. With us, because that'll make seven of us. That'll make seven of us on the.
- [62:56]
B
Team, live on air promotion. My goodness. If you're interested, I would love this.
- [63:05]
D
The only requirement is that you have to listen to everything. Even Rift.
- [63:09]
B
Well, it already is taken care of.
- [63:11]
D
Even Rift. And you have to do what I do, which is listen to everything in the order that it is performed and not jump ahead even though your friends are screaming at you to listen to something right away.
- [63:24]
B
I have a process, Charlie. I think it is.
- [63:27]
D
It is what it is.
- [63:28]
B
It is what it is. It's insane and requires a lot of re listening and a lot of notes and a lot of updated notes. I'll actually add you to my larger note process so you can see what that looks like as I move. I would jam of the year list going into fall tour.
- [63:49]
D
Thank you.
- [63:51]
F
The Charlie, Always sunny in Philadelphia. White with the string.
- [63:56]
C
Exactly. It's just like that. It's just like that.
- [63:59]
B
No, I would love that, man. Thank you.
- [64:01]
D
Oh, great. Okay, good. I wasn't sure how you'd react, frankly to it. So this is.
- [64:06]
C
So you decided to throw it on air, Charlie?
- [64:08]
D
Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [64:10]
A
I haven't consulted any of this.
- [64:11]
D
Other team members. They'll be really surprised. I'm just kidding. What's that?
- [64:16]
A
It's like an Oprah. It's like an episode of Oprah, you know, where at the end, like today everyone gets a car, but Brian gets to be on the jam charts team.
- [64:23]
D
It's just.
- [64:23]
C
It's amazing.
- [64:24]
A
Live on. Live on air. And Charlie. Hey, Charlie. By the way, just given that I saw my first fish show 30 years ago and I've been running this podcast for 12 years, I'm not offended that you didn't ask me. Don't worry. It's fine. I'm not like. Yeah, I'm not really sure. You know, it would never have occurred.
- [64:42]
D
To me to ask you. I mean, I have listened to enough HF POD podcasts to know that your opinions on fish are not to Be completely trusted. Brian, on the other hand.
- [64:55]
C
That's amazing. That's amazing. I wanted to thank both of you guys for your work because as someone who really appreciates this idea of the archive and how important it is to have a record of things, what you have contributed to the fish community is something that will last forever and is so important. And I don't have Brian Brinkman or RJB's encyclopedic brain. And so the jam charts are really where I live. And I couldn't be on this show without fish.net and all the work you do. And I just really want to say thank you. And I also want to know what you think about when you're trying to write these. Maybe this will be helpful for Brian, too, since he's going to be maybe potentially writing some of these. But I want to know a little bit more about what you're trying to go for when you're writing a description in the jam chart.
- [65:39]
D
Andrew. I mean, he's more qualified to answer that. But I can tell you from my experience in the distant past, because I don't think I've written that many descriptions in the last year. It's really just all inspired by the music. Like, it's kind of stream of consciousness. It's. You know, I might, obviously, if there's like a. If there's a key change, you know, or modulation or Trey. I'm a huge fan of, you know, Trey's Neutron Elevator. Elevator, yeah, his pedal, his envelope filter. Sorry, apologies to envelope filter and Mutron lovers by calling it an elevator pedal. But anyway. But I. So I tend to get, like, stream of conscious. If anything, I have to cut down what I've written in the description. In fact, the longer the description you see in a jam chart entry, the more likely it was authored by me and wasn't edited by Andrew. But I think it depends on the person. Right, Irene? Right, Andrew. I mean, I think it just.
- [66:42]
F
Yeah, there's. I think everyone on their team has their own style. You know, some people write a little more descriptively, some are more short and to the point. I think both kinds of descriptions have. There's room for both on the charts. After you've written dozens, hundreds, I hope not a thousand of these, it can become a little hard to come up with new ways to describe fish jamming.
- [67:06]
C
Yeah, I relate. I relate to that deeply.
- [67:10]
F
How many different ways can I call this bliss or.
- [67:14]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [67:15]
B
Yes.
- [67:16]
C
Yeah, yeah. I feel like that when I'm taking notes for the show a lot. Yeah.
- [67:19]
F
So it definitely helps to be, you know, if I hear a jam and I'm really actually inspired by it, you know, that's one that I'll sign up to write for right away. Because it just. Yeah, the words come easier when you're not trying to, you know, scratch for something that's not there necessarily.
- [67:34]
D
And, you know, and for your listeners out there, if you. If you think that a description is really poor and terrible, you're almost certainly right. There are a lot of descriptions that I author from old legacy versions on these older jam charts where it wasn't, you know, I didn't write a description really caring what someone thought about it at all. And it. They haven't been revised and edited in 26 years or whatever, you know, and so if you see something that you think should be changed, send it. Send in a new description for it and we'll get. We'll put your name or username as credit in there. I'm serious. Just don't hesitate.
- [68:18]
C
That's amazing.
- [68:19]
D
We're all volunteers, you know, we don't have, like, I'm. There's no entitlement, you know, it's like. If you think. Because. Because I'm looking at the Malwan right now on my screen from Watkins Glenn, and the description is simply. The timing is 8:01, Brian. So you were. I think you were. When you said it was eight minutes, you were right on. And the notes say, great version, which includes an unusual straightforward outro jam. So I didn't write that and I could tell you how I know, because I don't know what the unusual straightforward means. Like, to me, straightforward necessarily does not mean unusual, but I think the person who wrote it just meant it was like. It was an unusual, atypical coda, you know, an outro jam improvisation. And by straightforward, he meant to say. I'm certain it was a he, sadly, but meant to say probably, you know, type one or, you know, straight ahead, like gunning, you know, rocking altro jam. That's probably what he meant, but I don't know because I didn't author it. But that's a description, Brian, which you're welcome to change at your convenience and just email it to me and I'll change it on the site myself.
- [69:38]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [69:39]
C
I feel like you're about to get a lot of emails from Brian Brinkman, Charlie.
- [69:44]
D
Yeah, yeah, but exactly. Andrew's, like, going to kill me now. He's going to text me, what have you done? But also, you know, that's why I said it's important to, you know, if you do want to put a description on there, you know, obviously you can have your name after it in parentheses if you'd like. It's like, we don't, you know, none of this is stuff that, you know, we feel entitled to. I mean, the whole purpose of this, obviously, is to help with, you know, archiving Fish's music, as Megan noted. And it's, you know, we don't have any personal issues with it. And in fact, like, on the contrary, it drives me nuts when people kind of refer to the jam charts as the gospel according to Fishnet, because Fishnet has a lot of different people with different opinions. And as noted earlier, just because something is on the chart doesn't mean I agree that it should be charted. Like, something can chart with four Y's, you know, and even if it's two ends, you know, and I'm one of them. Oh, well, so, you know, it's just. Just. It's just one of those things, you know, I wouldn't want someone to think. And frankly, similarly, if something doesn't chart and you think it should, you should let us know why, you know, in detail, ideally with timings and from the version and maybe even citing other things on that have been charted specifically, especially actually through. If they've been charted earlier in the tour. Because sometimes we. There's clearly a bias in favor of versions on a tour that, you know, tend to excel more than others. But that's obviously challenging sometimes. If something is great all the time, which Tweezer, frankly, is a lot of the time. And. And so we end up, you know, not charting something which, you know, 10 years ago would have been easily charted, if that makes sense.
- [71:43]
C
Yeah.
- [71:43]
D
You know, and it's just inevitable that that happens. It's just inevitable because Fishes, you know, sometimes goes on these streaks with certain songs where it's like every version they're playing is just. Is excellent, you know, and, like, way better than you speak. Like, my friend, my friend is a great example of that. I mean, started. Started improvising regularly, seemingly out of nowhere, you know, after doing practically nothing forever, you know, similar to Sample in a Jar in that sense. It wasn't until jam night that Baker's Dozen, when it finally, finally was extended and jammed out. But my friend, My Friend, you know, is just it. Because it's commonly improvised, improvised on nowadays. There's one, at least one from this past tour that we're not charting, even though if that had been played 10 years ago, we would have lost our minds. You know, which.
- [72:32]
B
Which one is that? Out of curiosity?
- [72:34]
D
Well, you're not on the team yet, so you can't know until they're published.
- [72:40]
C
I love that.
- [72:41]
D
But you will know soon once you get it.
- [72:43]
F
All will be revealed in due time.
- [72:45]
D
Yeah, but there's things, you know, there's versions of Tweezer from the last decade which are, you know, excellent. You know, if they've been played in the early 2000s, people, I think, would have been thrilled. But, you know, they don't. They don't necessarily chart, you know, because everything is so. Everything is so good. And so there's definitely some versions of things which, you know, may improvise quite a bit, but the improvisation just kind of, you know, it sounds more like improvisation and not like melodious composed music. And that kind of jamming in quotes, you know, is. Some people love it, you know, and I obviously love it all the time when I'm seeing it at the show, but I might not want to listen to it again, you know. I mean.
- [73:34]
C
Yeah, it's fascinating to think about how much the bar has changed for the jam charts throughout Fish's career. I mean, in 4.0, the bar must be. It's pretty high.
- [73:45]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [73:46]
C
So much now.
- [73:47]
D
And they're playing so well. I mean, as you know, Megan, it's like they. They've played so many things over 20 minutes, too. It's become. It's become so common that, you know, people, if you don't get something over 20 minutes at a show, you're like, gee, you know, I was just like.
- [74:01]
C
Geez, I just went to Boulder and didn't even get what I wanted.
- [74:04]
D
And of course, you know, and back in the mid-90s, you know, the only things that would really go that long were you, enjoy myself or. Or maybe a mic's groove if you include whatever the hell was sandwiched in the middle, you know, I mean, and now you get, you know, tweezers that are routinely over 20 minutes long. And that was not the case, you know, for most of the 1990s, obviously. And, you know, so. And there's even something. Andrew, like, there's. What was it? There was something this summer, which was a Carini, where it's like the longest version ever was played. Forest Hills. Yeah. And I was like, for sales, right? And I actually comment. I'll actually read you my secret comments on this thing. But it's like I said. And of course, it got six Y's, because it's, you know, this huge long careen. It's what was it, 30? It's 28 minutes and 48 seconds.
- [74:53]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [74:54]
D
And Rich has written the description, but here is my comments on it. I think we have to chart this because it's the longest version ever and remarkable for that reason. But the improv is average grade at best in my opinion. I will listen to it one more time along with the rest of this show. But the music at this one struck me as average, graded its peaks. So that's pretty jaded. Right? So, but. So I apparently am never listening to that version of Karini again based on that. But I don't think it's wrong.
- [75:24]
C
I don't know that it's wrong.
- [75:26]
B
It brings up an interesting dilemma because it is the longest version. And I think that the way that they escape Karuni in that is in a really fascinating manner of very straight ahead, zero effects, just Tray and Paige back and forth, riffing, kind of building off of each other. But then when you get to the back end of that jam, 20 to 28 minutes, you're kind of in a pretty standard zone of like fish can do this type of jamming in their sleep. And I mean for you guys, when you think about the bar right now, but then you think about the bar and certain other tours and certain other eras of the band's history. Do you ever think about or have you started like an audit of past jam charted episode or jam charted jams or jams that have not that did not make the jam charts that may, upon reflection, 20, 30 years later deserve to be on there? Is that a part of your guys overall process or is that just yeah, out of the.
- [76:27]
D
Yeah, go ahead, let Andrew talk. Yeah.
- [76:30]
F
The charts are never set in stone. There's tweaks and changes. They happen somewhat frequently. The, you know, one of the biggest things the team is reckoning with in 4.0 is the bar being raised so high for a lot of these songs. So I know one of our longer term projects would be to go back through and look at the charts from, you know, early 3.009 up to 14 at least, and say, hey, does this really stand out as a notable jam considering everything that's going on in the last 10 years. So that's one of the big projects we'd like to do. Although, you know, we've been kept so busy keeping up with the current tours because it's just been a lot crazy.
- [77:11]
C
It's so much. I know it's an overwhelming task to think about that and like it's so interesting to think About. I mean, we talk about it so much on the show. Just looking back historically on the band and seeing how much. How we view different eras comparatively. And it's really hard to stack things up against 4.0, which is just shocking. Continues to shock me.
- [77:34]
F
Yeah, I think. I think in 21 it was kind of like a switch was flipped. And it happened so quickly that sometimes you got to step back and, you know, not take it for granted. And it's really pretty astounding what they've been doing the last few years.
- [77:49]
C
Yeah. Like, even thinking about that Carini, like, I just looked at my notes, I was there and my notes are like hypnotic, you know, that's it. Like, and it's just. It was. It's kind of not even that notable. And it was like a 30 minute jam. It's just like. It wasn't even.
- [78:05]
D
Right.
- [78:06]
C
It's just where we are right now.
- [78:08]
D
It's like. It's like nothing compared to the Tahoe Tweezer. Like, the Tahoe Tweezer just kicks its ass. Like just. Yeah, like every few minutes. Just like, wham, wham. And of course it's still fish. You know, we still love it. You know, it's not. It's nothing to say that it's not crap. It's just, you know, they've. They've themselves set a really high bar.
- [78:26]
C
It's their fault. I always say that. It's their fault. We couldn't have these expectations if they didn't do this. So it's their fault.
- [78:32]
D
Yeah, it's like we demand transcendence at every show. It's like there's got to be. It.
- [78:38]
C
We do.
- [78:38]
D
There's got to be hoes.
- [78:39]
C
Yeah, we do.
- [78:40]
D
It's like, otherwise we just want to cry ourselves asleep afterwards. No, seriously, they can stop doing it.
- [78:45]
C
And then they won't expect it.
- [78:46]
D
Right, Right. Yeah. Which would be awful, obviously. But yeah, it's just. Yeah, we're spoiled for sure.
- [78:52]
C
Massively.
- [78:53]
B
But I mean, speaking of that, because you guys were working through this throughout the middle part of 3.0, where we would have these kind of tentpole tours where a lot of ideas and a lot would come together. Fall 2013, summer 2015, summer 2017 with some dips. And I'm curious, like, if you guys can think back on that period in your role of documenting the strongest jams, what was that like for you guys as you're supposed to be showcasing to people, like, what you should be listening to. But there are these, like, pretty significant peaks and valleys. Like, do you guys remember what that era was like from a documentation standpoint?
- [79:38]
D
I mean, Andrew, I don't. I don't know if you can see me laughing, but, like, I remember very, very vividly just giving an end to entire show.
- [79:48]
B
So.
- [79:48]
D
Just ended. And then I would copy and paste the N. Like, through every song and just paste it, paste it. And then there'd be exceptions. Right. You know, so at times the jams were so scarce. It was. Yeah.
- [80:05]
F
It was water in the desert. So we were excited.
- [80:07]
D
Yeah. So there was. Yeah. So that's the thing. It's like. If there was anything that was pretty gripping, we freaked out. We were like, joy. You know, it's. You know, and it's like. I don't remember Andrew having any disputes other than whether something should actually be charted, because we haven't charted anything for that song in, like two years or a year or whatever, remember? I think that's kind of what I remember was we felt obligated almost to say that at least something was worth charting from every show, you know, like one thing. I mean.
- [80:40]
A
Yeah.
- [80:40]
F
And also by doing it that way, I think that's kind of. It speaks to the situation I was describing earlier, where now there's probably quite a few things tread from those days that doesn't necessarily stack up to what we've been getting more recently.
- [80:53]
B
Yeah.
- [80:54]
F
So it can cause an imbalance, but, you know, the charts are never going to be perfect. We just keep working at them.
- [81:00]
D
And there's also obviously personal biases, at least per. In my case. Like, you know, I was definitely. I had a really hard time with Trey's tone and still do at times when he uses the pitch shifter a lot. I'm just extraordinarily sensitive to pitch. And so when something sounds like crap and I see everybody around me or, you know, cheering, yelling, and I'm just like, how can you not hear that he's flat on, you know, or sharp or whatever. I just. It. That's hard, you know, and there was, thankfully, this tour, you know, he. There's not anywhere close to as much of that as there was 10 years ago or 12 years ago. I should say not 2015. But. But. But with, you know, when he was relying on the pitch shifter a lot, I had. I. It was. It was a struggle because I did listen to every note. Like, even songs I never want to hear again, you know, because I still occasionally find joy out of even songs like that I've been hearing, you know, for 30 years now, so. All the time. But it's Just, you know, so there's those kind of biases too. And we all have little quirks, I think, like that and like, little prejudices. But. But yeah, I mean, that's part of the reason, the good reason why we have so many people, you know, reviewing things is because, you know, none of us are. Are perfect. Perfect in quotes all the time. And of course, I surprise myself with my. My own profound deafness, you know, routinely in that, you know, sometimes I just can't believe that, you know, I miss certain things, you know, probably because I'm running and distracted and it's in one ear and out the other, but. And I go back and listen, I say, oh, okay, that's why everybody but me was a why on this. Right? You know, but that's happens. Like I've, you know, there's been time and vice versa. Like, there's been times when I'll, like, think something's freaking amazing, and then I'll go and see and everyone else is an N, you know, and I'm like.
- [82:56]
C
What.
- [82:58]
D
Am I crazy? And then I go back and listen to it. I'm like, oh, okay, I guess maybe, maybe I can hear why it's just a average, great, awesome version of, you know, whatever song it was just hits.
- [83:09]
B
You in the moment.
- [83:09]
D
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So anyway. But people shouldn't hesitate to let us know if they want to add their own description to something, if they think it's an improvement, which it will be almost certainly. If it's like a legacy, you enjoy myself for Mike song. Because if it's something that I did 20 some odd years ago, then you can. You can correct it. Yeah.
- [83:32]
F
The best way to get in touch with us, on every jam chart page, there's a feedback and corrections button in the top right corner. So just fill out that form. That's the best way to get our attention.
- [83:43]
D
Yeah, by far.
- [83:46]
A
Awesome. Well, this is fun, guys. You got a new recruit out of the deal. And thank you.
- [83:52]
B
Thank you, guys.
- [83:54]
A
We got to discuss some of this stuff. If you have questions, if you're listening to the audio version, send us a voicemail and let us know if you have questions for these guys or want to give any feedback or just thank the Fishnet team for what they do. All right, well, thank you guys for joining us. Yes.
- [84:11]
B
I got one last question for you guys. Just because we're talking jam charts, we're talking high bars, I don't want to put either of you on the spot. Although I do. That's like a podcasting tactic. What is the number one FISH jam.
- [84:25]
D
Each of you has ever heard go yourself.
- [84:30]
A
You know, Brian, I thought you were.
- [84:32]
F
Gonna at least say, like, of the year. And I had a good.
- [84:34]
C
That's what I did too, because I'm.
- [84:37]
F
In agreement with you on the year or at least of the year. Austin Golden Age.
- [84:42]
D
Yeah.
- [84:43]
B
There we go. There we go. I love this.
- [84:46]
F
Of all time. I'll go with Radio City Ghost.
- [84:50]
D
Oh, love it.
- [84:51]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [84:52]
B
Love that.
- [84:53]
D
I don't know how. I just don't know how people can do that. I really can't. It's like if. If a certain jam gets me to this transcendent place, I can't put one over the other. Just can't do it.
- [85:07]
B
Well, I've got a great recording of you with some excellent music behind it that I produced Crying, talking about the 123195 mic song. So I think you can.
- [85:19]
D
Yeah, but that's not my favorite, right? So there's all these other jams that would also make me cry, but including ones that I've seen. And I wasn't even at Cyprus. You know, people just assume I was at Cyprus. And no, I was not fucking at Cyprus. And so I can't stand really large crowds of people. I went to enough Grateful Dead shows a long time ago in stadiums and I'm just like, ah. Like, I just can't. It's just too much.
- [85:45]
B
I'm in my webcasting era too. I get it.
- [85:48]
D
But it's like. It's like I have trouble even doing a top anything. Like, I can't. I just, you know, there's like, there's segments of things that I might really, really love. Like the five 1994 stash. You know, there's this point, there's a three minute section in there which Mike. Yeah, Mike. Starts and it's. And I could like, sing it. Like, it's just. It's just to me like that when improvisation hits this kind of melodic, you know, field or whatever, it's. It's just so phantasmagoric, I think is the word I'm looking for. But like, it's just so amazing to me that, you know, I can't. I can't be like, oh, well, this. I'll have to relegate that to like number 27 out of my list of, you know, 50. I just can't. There's not. I can't. I can't do that because there's just so many improvisations by fish, especially periods of music. Like every. Every 30 some odd minute version of. Of Tweezer. There's something like that probably in it for at least some segment of time. And then you know, like the Mud Island Tweezer. You know, most of it is amazing but like. And then I think it's. It's like finger. Is it finger links or is it Canandaigua? Like from. Yeah, we're like. It's after a certain point, like it doesn't get like really, really good until like the 28 minute mark or something. And then it's just like what. You know, for like 10 minutes. It's. It's just insanely good. Like it's. There's just nothing. I. I don't see how you could put anything over it like from any era. Like it just. It's either equal to reaching this apex of, you know, bliss and you know, transcendence and, and. Or it's not. Like it's just not. You can put one of the over. I just think isn't madness. And I hear, I hear you when you say you've got to be in person for it. I get that. But like I've seen 170 something I think shows I think sort of roughly so I, you know, there's a lot there, you know, to choose from still. I'm very, very lucky that way. I was at Spack for God's sake.
- [88:02]
A
I mean, hell yeah.
- [88:04]
D
The third. I mean, what a tweezer Reprise Reprise.
- [88:13]
B
Never knew how to ask for. I don't think that we had on our bingo card that you would be recommending the 51994 stash. So for anyone out there who hasn't listened, I will back you up. That is an outstanding version of that song. So. So we will. We will push that out and I'm excited to get to work with you guys. This is awesome. Thank you guys so much for coming by and I think it's very helpful for us and for our listeners to hear what the process is. And again, to reinforce the volunteer nature. Everyone on this call loves this band, thinks this band is incredibly important. And even though, you know, we're flying high end journalists around the country to get insights into various aspects of Phish, the hard work of documenting this band is happening right here.
- [88:59]
D
Thank you.
- [88:59]
F
Donate to mockingbird.org the Summer 25 Jam Charts will be posted soon. Hopefully in the next week or so.
- [89:05]
D
So.
- [89:06]
C
All right, all right.
- [89:08]
A
Thank you.
- [89:09]
C
Thank you so much for all you do. Honestly, could not be on the show without you. Appreciate you so much.
- [89:14]
F
Thank you.
- [89:15]
D
Thank you. All right. Do we get kicked out now. Booted.
- [89:19]
C
RJ is the boss. We'll see.
- [89:22]
D
Bye.
- [89:25]
A
Thank you, guys. Seriously. Thank you guys for your time. It's always so fun. So fun. Thank you for. Thanks for coming. Charlie. Nice to meet you. Andrew.
- [89:35]
F
Yeah, same, hopefully.
- [89:39]
A
All right, guys, we. I think that's it. I think we did it. We did everything we were supposed to do today, so we're gonna. We're gonna end it there before we Anything else up. See you guys. We'll see you guys next week for a draft that Brian has invented that we will be doing. And I'm gonna figure that out between now and then. So good luck, everybody.
- [89:57]
B
Next draft, baby. Let's go.
- [89:59]
C
Yeah.
- [89:59]
A
Bye, Andrew. Bye, Charlie. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Brian.
- [90:04]
C
See you soon.
- [90:24]
D
Sam.
- [91:00]
B
Osiris this is the story of the 1. As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine. But he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping. So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product. He needs to get the job done, which is music to his ears. Call clickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.