Podcast Summary: Helping Friendly Podcast – Mt. Rushmore: Waves

Date: September 10, 2025
Podcast: Helping Friendly Podcast (HFPod) by Osiris Media
Episode Theme:
A deep dive into Phish’s song “Waves” — its history, live evolution, and the definitive “Mount Rushmore” versions according to the HFPod crew. The hosts analyze the song’s live journey, discuss notable performances, and debate the merits of classic jams, while allowing for spirited, passionate disagreements and plenty of communal Phish nerdery.

Main Theme & Purpose

The HFPod team dedicates this episode to unpacking Phish’s “Waves,” a contemplative track from Round Room (2002), notable for its rarity and sporadic but occasionally transcendent improvisational peaks. With the “Mount Rushmore” format, they debate and ultimately select the four most essential, exploratory, and boundary-pushing live versions of “Waves.” As always, they offer insightful commentary on how the song fits into the broader Phish oeuvre and the evolving landscape of the band’s improvisational approach.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. General Banter and Recent Phish Activity

• Tour Discussion: Early conversation on what counts as “fall” tour, the band’s relentless schedule, and fans’ mixed feelings about the early return to the road.
  (03:00–04:10)

  “I don’t buy this extended summer tour thing... it’s also September. It’s cool.” — B [03:16]

• Zodiac Tangent: Playful banter about changing zodiac dates and the cosmic randomness of tour timing.

2. Listening Recommendations

• Big Thief's Latest Album: Megan praises Big Thief’s Double Infinity, drawing parallels to Adrienne Lenker’s intimate solo work.
  (07:07)
• Music Preferences: Brian discusses how some albums “click” over time, relating this to evolving appreciation for certain Phish eras.

3. Waves: Song History & Rarity

Timestamps: [09:54–11:30]
Megan gives a concise but thorough background of “Waves:”

• Written by Trey and Tom Marshall, recorded October 2002, released on Round Room.
• Debut: 12/31/02 MSG, launching Set II (with “Seven Below,” “Walls of the Cave”).
• Played 55 times, about once every 13 shows; notably rare in 4.0 (one or two performances a year).
• 16 appearances on the Jam Chart, with about a 30% chance of “going type II.”
• High points often hinge on the transcendence of its outros.

“It is sort of rare in 4.0... You have to be pretty lucky to catch ‘Waves’ now.” — C [11:20]

4. Panel’s Philosophical Take on “Waves”

[11:30–18:31]

• Brian: “Waves” channels contemplative songwriting in the lineage of the Grateful Dead; it often serves as a transitional set piece, but in its rare peaks, becomes “oceanic, seafaring, anything is possible.” Much potential remains untapped.
• Megan: For her, one of Phish’s “most poetic songs,” loaded with metaphor (transitory power of words, sound waves), akin to “Theme from the Bottom,” “NICU,” and “Wading in the Velvet Sea.”
• RJ: Admits the song never deeply resonated with him, until some Mexico performances reframed it: “I think this is going really well with the ‘Waves’/Ruby Waves combo.”
• Evdude’s Listener Comment:

  “My main takeaway from this exercise was Waves has generally not achieved its potential. But... the Type I section is incredible. Some of the most delicate Trey playing.” [16:31]

The “Mount Rushmore” of Waves: The Definitive Four

(Major Segment: [19:11–53:13])

Each pick features discussion, context, and debate over its inclusion.

1. 8/2/2003 – The IT Festival Ambient Jam

(First Pick) [19:11–28:47]

• Setting: Final festival at Loring Air Force Base, Maine (“IT”).
• Why It’s Essential:
  • First extended, deep “Waves” jam — 20 mins, with a 10-minute ambient, almost instrumentless, effect-driven soundscape.
  • Channeling Brian Eno and William Basinski: “terrifying and beautiful... the Disintegration Loops vibe- energy.”
  • Prototype for later ambient improvisational experiments.
  • Panel talk:
    • Megan: “The last 10 minutes are pure transcendence... ancestor to the Woodlands Jam.”
    • Brian: “Festival freedom: ‘We’re not going anywhere, let’s see what this song can do.’”
    • RJ: “I think it needs to be on the list... but this is probably not where I go when I want a jam.” [24:43]
    • Brian probes, is it about preference for structure vs. soundscape (“do you listen to a lot of ambient or noise music?”). RJ: “Probably don’t go to it... easily.”
• Consensus: Important, if not everyone’s favorite, for risk-taking, patient exploration.

“It’s like 12 minutes of effects... I like it, but it doesn’t really do a lot for me... but I think it belongs on there.” — A [24:43]

2. 5/26/2011 – The Bethel Tech Rehearsal Soundcheck

(Second Pick) [28:47–41:02]

• Setting: NOT in front of an audience — a tech rehearsal/soundcheck released as “LP on LP 2.”
• Why It’s Essential:
  • 27-minute jam, huge creative leap after years dormant.
  • Begins with candid Trey/Page dialogue:

    “Do you want to play a jammier song?... Do you want to play ‘Waves’? — I do.” [31:40]

  • Unfolds as a true, explorative “Waves” jam with Mahavishnu-esque rock-jazz, blissful ambient sections, and melodic interplay.
  • Demonstrates band’s willingness to chase new ideas, even offstage.
• Panel Talk:
  • Megan: “The interplay is so Garcia-like. I’m buying this on vinyl even though I don’t have a record player yet!” [33:38]
  • Brian: Defends inclusion of soundcheck/soundboard material: “I don’t know why we would set rules in place for music not to count. This is as good as it gets.”
  • RJ: “If we could have more soundcheck jams be eligible for Rushmore, I’m all for it.”
  • Fans in chat debate, is it “fair” to judge soundchecks against live performances with crowd energy? Panel generally agrees music counts wherever it was created.
• Notable Quotes:

  “When they release that music, that is as good an indication as possible that the music matters... 100% going to be in there every single time.” — B [35:41]

• Broader Debate: Leads into meta-discussion of whether studio versions could ever make a Rushmore and how Phish’s album approach differs from live Phish.

3. 5/27/2011 – Bethel Woods (Night Two: Live)

(Third Pick) [41:02–53:13]

• Setting: Next night after the soundcheck, sets two consecutive landmarks.
• Why It’s Essential:
  • Cited by Trey himself as influenced by Beach House’s Alex Scali. “It’s a complete mood piece.”
  • The jam is blissful, melodic, patient, and direct (no heady effects, just communication).
  • Not the most “out there,” but shows what the song could have become — a template for future melodic jamming (“They figured out how to utilize melody as a jamming space versus effects”).
• Panel Talk:
  • Megan: “Absolutely stunning. The outro is so lush and contemplative.”
  • RJ: “The playing is really creative... not super long, but it all works well.”
  • Brian: Contextualizes in the era: “In early 3.0, 13–15 minutes of great music was a big deal. The only other 20+ mins jam in 2011 was...maybe two.”
• Meta-discussion:
  Comparison of soundcheck vs. live jam, and speculation on why Phish's improvisational freedom sometimes differs without an audience.

  “Freedom they felt playing the tech version...they clearly wore off on them because you can hear parallels in the next night’s show.” — B [47:55]

4. 2/22/2020 – Mexico: The 4.0 Sound Incipient

(Fourth Pick) [53:13–63:51]

• Setting: Riviera Maya, Mexico — final major show before the COVID-19 shutdown.
• Why It’s Essential:
  • Highly experimental with synthesizers, heartland rock peaks; clear preview of Phish’s 4.0 jamming approach (“freedom...melody and rising up to a peak rather than just having melody dictate everything.”)
  • Energetic, effects-rich, texturally dense, seamlessly glides from ambient washes to melodic, triumphant climaxes.
  • Also notable: Segues back into “Soul Planet” at the end, which the panel and fans find amusing/cringe-worthy.
• Memorable Moments:
  • RJ: “Maybe the closest I’ve ever been at a show...and then, yeah, flew back... wild.”
  • Brian shares a Deadhead-Webcast-convert story about introducing a friend to Phish at the moment Trey sings the “Ocean is Love” lyric:

    “Ben was very embarrassed... ‘Why did you do that right now?’” [57:38–59:48]

  • Megan: “Fishman is doing these rolling fills... when they start to sound a little bit like the waves... that, to me, is indicative of what’s so great about Waves jams.”
  • Discussion of Mexico 2023 version, with some panelists preferring its cohesion, others praising the 2020 version’s expansiveness and risk.

Honorable Mentions & Fan Selections

[64:03–69:41]

• 6/20/2004: Fan favorite for its “propulsive, driving” energy, though hosts (esp. Brian) find it messy and less artistically successful compared to earlier/fresher versions.
• 10/21/2018 and other “transition” jams get shoutouts as being strong but not quite “Mount Rushmore.”
• Consensus: The best Waves jams balance risk, patience, and a willingness to settle into a space, whether ambient or melodic.

Broader Meta-Conversation

Studio vs. Live, Tech Rehearsal vs. Show

(36:01–38:10, 41:02, sporadic)

• The panel’s overarching philosophy: Any performance the band elects to release — regardless of whether an audience is present — is fair game.
• Tangent: Why doesn’t Phish choose more often to release sprawling, definitive live improvisations as part of their canon? (e.g., “Mountain Jam” on Allmans’ Eat a Peach, or the hidden “Split Open and Melt” on Demand).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “One of the most poetic Phish songs... Opening lyrics just absolutely crush me.” — C [15:09]
• “This is like the ambient soundscape of my dreams. Pure transcendence... reverberating, lush.” — C [23:01]
• “I’m buying this on vinyl, even though I don’t have a record player yet.” — C [33:38]
• “If they’d just put more jams on their albums... Maybe you’ll see one of them on Rushmore.” — A [37:18]
• “That’s just so extreme — they actually took the seat apart.” (on Reba concert story) — C [49:38]
• “If you skip this over because there’s an 11-minute version played in front of a crowd... you’re just losing out on the great music at that point.” — B [35:41]
• “Mexico is worth the money, especially when they play great.” — B [63:55]

Episode Conclusion & Future Format Changes

[75:20–79:41]

• Announcement: The “Rushmore” format will shift to a more collaborative, collective panel vote for future episodes — aiming for a more unified, definitive list and less secretive, adversarial energy.
• Tease for next episode: The crew will tackle “Ikyulus” (“All 28 versions eligible!”).
• Upcoming schedule: Fall tour recaps, mailbag episode, and continued Rushmore series.

Timestamps of Important Segments

• [09:54] — “Waves” Song History/Stats
• [19:11] — Mount Rushmore “Waves” 8/2/2003 discussion
• [28:47] — Bethel Tech 5/26/2011 (Soundcheck) debate
• [41:02] — 5/27/2011 Bethel Woods analysis
• [53:13] — 2/22/2020 Mexico improvisation & 4.0/modern jam evolution
• [64:03] — Fan alternative picks & honorable mentions
• [75:20] — Announcement of new Rushmore format

Takeaways for New Listeners

• “Waves” is among Phish’s rarer and more contemplative vehicles, with very few versions achieving its full improvisational potential — but when it does, it’s breathtaking.
• The IT (8/2/2003), Bethel Tech (5/26/2011), Bethel Woods (5/27/2011), and Mexico 2020 (2/22/2020) versions collectively showcase all the possibilities latent in “Waves”: ambient, exploratory, melodic, and modern.
• This discussion encapsulates what makes Phish (and HFPod) special: deep-minded, music-nerd banter, open debate, and genuine love for the magic of improvisation and surprise.

Summary prepared by: Podcast Summarizer
Original episode by: HFPod / Osiris Media