Rob Mitchum

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast: Rob Mitchum Interview

Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Brian and Megan (Osiris Media)
Guest: Rob Mitchum (FishCrit.substack.com)

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Overview

This episode is a deep-dive interview with Rob Mitchum, music journalist and creator of the acclaimed FishCrit Substack project, which chronicles every Phish show—primarily focusing on documenting and analyzing the band's 1.0 era (1993–2000) on a show-by-show basis, with thoughtful context and commentary. The conversation explores the marathon nature of this project, key insights from listening to hundreds of Phish shows in sequence, foreshadowing the band's ongoing creative evolution, burnout, reinvention, and the role of challenges in the band’s history and present. Rob also previews what's next for his writing, including a look at 1980s Phish.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Year-End Reflections & Introductions

• List-making Season ([01:05]): Brian and Megan banter about music and book lists, the year’s end, and how “release season” disrupts their listening routines.
• Upcoming Episodes ([05:00]): Preview of interviews with author Mike Ayers and a discussion of Tom Robbins’ novel “Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates.”
• Rushmore Series ([06:57]): Teasing upcoming episodes dedicated to four iconic Phish songs and the "Holiday Shows and Jams Draft" to wrap up the year.

Welcoming Rob Mitchum ([10:06])

• Rob jokes about being the “opening act” for Mike Ayers and his role in Ayers’ jam band oral history book:
  “In Mike's book… the chapter on Big Cypress, I think opens with me saying, ‘At the end of the 90s, Phish was bigger than ever.’ Which, reading that book, I think probably might know that. But somebody's got to say it, just keep an oral history moving along.” ([10:19] -- Rob)

Rob Mitchum’s Phish Documentation Project

Genesis & Timeline ([13:13])

• Started live-tweeting 1993 Phish shows in 2013 (chose 1993 as the “start of modern Phish”).
• Shifted to essays, using different platforms (Medium, Tumblr, Substack).
• In 2019, switched to writing about each show on its 25th anniversary, which provided structure and motivation—while also risking burnout.

Method & Process ([20:55])

• Always aspired to “bank shows” ahead, usually only two-three weeks in advance.
• Process:
  • First casual listen (in the background), noting standout moments.
  • Focused re-listens of interesting segments.
  • Essays draw on a theme or thread ("pulling a thread")—not necessarily highlighting the most famous jams.
  • “I feel like there's got to be a limit somewhere where I just can't say anything more about Phish, but I haven't really reached [it]... each show truly is so unique that like, some theme would emerge.” ([22:45] -- Rob)
• Sometimes writing becomes harder in periods where the band seemed creatively tired or flat.

Burnout & Parallels with Band’s Fatigue ([26:48])

• Burnout often tracks with the band’s own exhaustion, especially late 1.0 shows.
• Writing about “tired” shows is challenging and mirrors the diminishing returns felt as a touring fan in 2000.
  • “There's a point where it just, like, starts to turn on you and you're like, is this a good idea? Like, should I really have done this? … By the end of the tour, which, again, it kind of fits because I think a lot of times the band was tired too... So I would do some essays that were maybe a little, like, more unorthodox in terms of the theme that I would choose.” ([26:58] -- Rob)

What Did Listening to Every Show Change?

Debunking the "Only the Highlights" View ([30:43])

• Tape-trading culture focused on “classic” shows; the real story is in the evolution between the tentpoles.
  • “So often Phish history is looked at in terms of its highlights … I really... wanted to hear everything so that I can hear what went on between those sort of tentpole shows and hear what led up to that.” ([30:43] -- Rob)
• Listening to every show deepened, rather than lessened, appreciation for 1.0. The process demystified the era, showing the incremental advancement and the work required, not just nightly brilliance.

Evolution & Pace ([34:43])

• The 1990s are marked by rapid reinvention and stylistic shifts—each year sounds distinct.
• Modern Phish (3.0/4.0) is less radical in change but more consistently excellent.
  • “Change happens much slower now... what's really impressive about the 90s... is just how fast this evolution happened... 94, for instance, it's a year that they started in one place and they ended up 500 miles away. They could not have changed more as a band.” ([34:43] -- Rob)

Risk, Challenges, and the Role of Creative Triggers ([37:54])

• 1990s Phish thrived on new challenges: bigger venues, festivals, Europe, Halloween musical costumes, and constant new material.
• Modern era challenges require more self-invention—Baker’s Dozen, Sphere, Gamehendge, and ambitious setlist constraints serve as catalysts to keep the band (and fans) invested.
• The stagnation of 2000 attributed to lack of creative triggers:
  • “They had no festivals, no Halloween show. There were no holidays other than 4th of July, and they had no new material. I mean, they were like, really on fumes...” ([42:04] -- Rob)

Uncovering Underrated & Transitional Shows ([52:08])

• Rob highlights shows that serve as “foreshadowing” for future reinventions; loves finding “transitional” moments rather than just famous peaks.
• Examples:
  • [11/26/94 Minneapolis]: Features a 37-minute Bowie, previewing future explorations.
    “It’s got a lot of like, weird, interesting segues … you can start to hear this more mature confidence of fall 95 coming in.” ([56:26] -- Rob)
  • [10/11/95 Phoenix]: On the cusp between older and new eras of confidence and style.
  • Clifford Ball Soundcheck Jam [8/15/96]: Chosen for how off-stage jams in ’96 predict ’97’s funk and textural breakthroughs, even if mainstage shows don’t sound like it. “They just didn't have the faith that they could bring that to the show… They had to like, this last hump of, like, we're gonna risk alienating some fans in order to do what makes us most excited. And that's what ended up happening in 97... But it's just funny to hear that it was there in 96 and they weren't doing it in front of people.” ([54:57]/[59:35] -- Rob)
  • 6/24/97 Strasbourg, France: Hearing the “means to an end” of funk jams; key to understanding late-‘90s evolution.
  • 7/7/99 Charlotte: A live example of “entropy jamming,” where textures and atmospheres begin to dominate.

The Modern Era: Improv, Consistency & Communication

([74:19])

• 3.0/4.0 Phish’s jams are more “narrative,” with recurring musical ideas and symmetry.
• Band communication is better, partly due to technology (in-ears, on-stage talking).
  • “The intra band communication is like as strong as it's ever been…small changes, like Mike moving back to the middle, really do influence the band” ([77:43] -- Rob)
• Floor is higher; ceiling may be lower—but that’s a healthy evolution for band and audience.

The 1980s & What’s Next for FishCrit

([94:42])

• Rob will explore selected 1980s Phish shows in his next writing phase—not every show, but a chronological and curated survey of “underground, indie” Phish.
  • “I realized I rarely, barely at all, listen to 80s Phish... I want to just kind of, like, throw [essays] out there when I feel like writing about it...One thing I try and impress upon people who don't like Phish is that Phish-as-a-jam-band was not inevitable...they were in this interesting, artsy college rock scene where they were closer to Ween and They Might Be Giants...instead of being a band who jams for tens of thousands of people.” ([94:43]/[97:30] -- Rob)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Show-by-Show Listening:
  “Each show truly is so unique that, like, some theme would emerge ... I feel like there's got to be a limit somewhere where I just can't say anything more about Phish, but I haven't really reached [it].” ([22:45])
• On Late-1.0 Fatigue:
  “I wrote a lot more negative essays than other years. Maybe 96 is the only year that compares. And I was like, you know, when you write a negative essay, there's always somebody that is like, oh, I love this show ... But in 2000, I rarely got that comment ... There was a collective fatigue in the scene.” ([48:54]--Rob)
• On Modern Consistency:
  “I think the floor is higher, the ceiling is lower. A lot of people have said that. And that's a good thing because you can go to any Phish show and you're gonna hear, like, a pretty interesting jam ... but, like, you also—you hear the flaws, I think, more than you would have when you were swapping tapes in the 90s.” ([36:59] -- Rob)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:34] - The challenge of end-of-year list-making.
• [05:00] - Preview of upcoming episodes.
• [06:57] - Mount Rushmore song series and upcoming episode plans.
• [10:06] - Rob Mitchum joins the show.
• [13:13] - How FishCrit began, methods and platform evolution.
• [20:55] - Rob’s process for preparing and writing about each show.
• [26:48] - Burnout, band fatigue, and hearing exhaustion in late-1.0.
• [30:43] - Demystifying the 1.0 era through comprehensive listening; myth vs. reality.
• [34:43] - The speed of band evolution—then vs. now.
• [37:54] - The crucial role of creative challenges and self-imposed constraints for Phish.
• [48:54] - Fatigue, audience feedback, memories of 2000.
• [52:08]-[61:31] - A close look at “foreshadowing shows” and how side jams and oddities portend future reinventions.
• [74:19] - The “narrative” style of modern jams; enhanced communication; Mike’s stage move.
• [94:42] - Rob previews writing about 80s Phish, focusing on the indie/college-rock context.
• [103:27] - Rob’s favorite new albums of 2025 (Wednesday, Geese, Ryan Davis, SML, Oldman Johnson Wils, Horse Girl, Tobacco City, Natural Information Society, etc.)
• [105:33] - Recommendations for Natural Information Society performances.
• [107:16]-[108:17] - Episode wrap-up, encouragement to support Rob’s work.

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The Tone & Language

The tone is conversational, enthusiastic, and detail-oriented, balancing “deep nerd” music analysis (“entropy jams,” structural commentary, tracking band fatigue) with fan-level excitement and humor. Rob’s language blends analytical rigor (“foreshadowing,” “narrative jams,” “selection bias”) with the in-joke warmth of the Phish fan community.

“Megan, you were at this one?” “I don’t remember much about it, but it was fine.” — Several vintage moments of deadpan show recall.
“I feel like I'm stuck between two times because I'm listening to 1.0 shows in the 90s, but also trying to keep up with Phish right now, which is a great problem to have, but...” ([33:24])

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Summary

The HFPod hosts and Rob Mitchum touch all the bases of “serious fan” Phish conversation: show-by-show obsession, the reality of the band’s creative arc, what gets lost in legends and highlights, and—above all—how the project of chronicling every show is its own improvisational challenge. The episode will reward veteran fans and aspiring historians alike, with humor, context, and plenty of recommendations for deep listening, both inside and outside the Phishworld.

Transcript

[A]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no.

[B]

One forgets mom 60th and never miss.

[A]

A meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[B]

Osiris.

[A]

And there it is. We are live. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Helping friendly podcast here, here on Monday, November 10th. I'm Brian. I'm here with Megan. How are you doing, Meg?

[C]

I'm good. I can't really believe it's November 10th. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

[A]

A little bit? Yeah, it's kind of. I think that, like, the early part of November is when I realized, like, time just keeps moving in an unending fashion. And, you know, I just, I have to accept that the year is coming to an end. Even though I feel like I'm just getting adjusted to what it means to be alive in 2025. What movies, what books, what music is resonating with me. Like, you then get to this point in November, you're like, oh, my God, I have to remember what 2025 felt like.

[C]

I know we're going to have to start doing our end of lists soon. Getting those out. I mean, we've been working on them. I know, I know. You just recently updated yours, right? Your music list. I was just looking at my book list and my music list and yeah, I've got some work to do, got some listening to do.

[A]

I try to do it like three or four times throughout the year. I do a full re listen just to make sure everything is in play. And I think I did my last, like, big, big one. It's now kind of, what are the final records that are really going to impact me? I have a firm belief that the record industry should solely be releasing albums from February 1st to October 31st. No later, no earlier. Give us that window at the end of the year to catch up, make our list final, you know, final recommendations of what we heard this year, what sounds like the right call, and then give us that time after the holidays. All I want to do is listen to jazz and old records that I have loved in the past, but I'm not necessarily keeping up on. And Almost immediately, like January 2nd, someone releases an album and I have to start thinking about it. So, like, give me that three.

[C]

Oh, it's like two months. I know. And I did some really fun listening projects this year. I, like went back and listened to whole discographies of certain artists and so that was like my favorite part of the year. But I did that the beginning of the year because I felt like I had more time. And now as the end of the year comes up, I mean, I did a full listen of my top 20 favorite albums in the middle of the year, but I haven't been back to them since. So I've just been slotting things in. But I'm due pretty soon. I'll start.

[A]

Abdud says it's a great year of music and I'm mostly on the agreement with that. I got two albums that have absolutely hung with everything this year and have elevated above everything else, but a lot that I really enjoyed. I'm excited to share it. Maybe we'll have some of our listeners send in voicemails of their five years. We get closer towards the end of the year so we can share those on our final episodes this year, which we should tell you about. We should also tell you about today's episode. We're going to bring them on here shortly, but we're bringing Rob Mitchum on, who writes [e-mail]. he's been running a fantastic website for definitely the last six years while this project we're going to hear all about it has been going on, I think, since 2013. He will correct me on that if I'm wrong, but he's been documenting every single fish show. I believe he started with winner 93, was doing that on Twitter, and then opened a Substack page in late 2019 to highlight the 25th anniversary of fall 94, and then continued that up through October 7, 2000 to end the 1.0 era. We're going to dive deep into this site. This was a daily read for me. I have a couple of threads of friends who we would eagerly anticipate these showing up in our mailbox. Talk about them re listen to Highlights. It's really, really fantastically written history of fish over the latter period 1.0. So we're going to have Rob on here shortly. I also want to tell you guys about upcoming episodes that we have. Meg, we have another interview next week. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what that interview will be plus what we have coming after that episode?

[C]

Absolutely. We are going to be interviewing Mike Ayers, who wrote Sharing in the Groove about the jam band explosion in the 90s. So it's an interview book where he talks to a Bunch of the different bands from the mid, kind of actually early, I'd say 90s, to the end of the decade. And it's really great. It's an oral history and it was a fun read. And we're really excited to talk with him next week and learn a little bit more about his process and talk. Brian and I were talking offline about kind of what we want to talk to him about, and we want to talk to him about the scene in general and kind of the evolution of the scene throughout the years since then as well. So it should be a good conversation.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit about what has changed since then, what makes today's kind of young jam band explosion similar and different to what was going on in the 90s. Also, there are some great kind of low blows in there towards other bands in the scene, like Disco Biscuits gets a few in there. Blues Travelers gets a few in there. There's a few moments where it's like, you know, you can see the kind of arrogance of artists kind of rising above the four and kind of talking smack to each other in a loving way. But also a lot of really cool stuff about just like DIY scenes in the 90s. That was great. So that'll be next week. And then we have another library card episode next week that I know you want to talk about.

[C]

Yeah, we're talking about Tom Robbins. So this is cool because RJ brought this book to us last year when Tom Robbins passed away, and you and I had both never read Tom Robbins. That's correct. Right?

[A]

Brian somehow had missed him. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, me too. And so we read Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates. And we're going to be talking about that next week, which will be an interesting conversation because I think it's also going to bring up a little bit about when you read books when you're young and how they influence you and how they hit you and then how they might hit you differently when you're older and reread them. So it's going to be a really fun conversation.

[A]

Going to be an RJB Spotlight highlight episode where he gets to gush about something that I think we both were like, okay, exactly six weeks of my life I may not get back, but I'm here for the conversation. I'm very excited for it. Also, before we bring Rob on last thing, I want to tell you guys about our last rushmore episodes of 2025. So we've been going through top Fish songs for the entirety of this, tracking what we think are the four most Important versions of each of those songs. We've done a bunch, some old songs, some new songs. We've adjusted our process to make it a little bit more collaborative. I think we're at a really good spot with it now. And we are ending what we are calling the first set of Rushmore in 2025 with possum slave to the Traffic Light, Reba and you. Enjoy Myself. So four set closing bangers. You can just put the carrot on there that Possum into Slave. You think the set's about to end. Oh, no. We're going to do Arriba. Oh, my God. We're going to end it with you. Enjoy Myself. So four big tracks.

[C]

Quite a second quarter there.

[A]

Quite, quite an end. That's like a 2009 special. We will send out the list of potential tracks for each of those that you guys can get a head start. I am currently in Possum World, which is very repetitive but also, you know, pretty enjoyable. There's some great stuff happening with impossum in the mid-90s, something we will. We will address kind of, you know, as we talk here with Rob. It's like, you know that these high points in the mid-90s and what songs could be featured and what songs really kind of blew up during that period in time that we don't necessarily hear in as Dynamic of a Light here in Modern Fish. But those four tracks we will be talking about here over the next month. We've also got our last draft of 2025. I think I said that the last draft was the last draft, but we have another one.

[C]

You did Holiday?

[A]

I did, but I got. I'm making you prepare for one more, the Holiday Fish Shows and Jams draft, which will serve as our preview for the final run of the year. So information about that coming. Tons and tons of stuff. The holidays are coming and we're not slowing down.

[C]

No.

[A]

Anything else that we need to.

[C]

Well, I was just looking and we've done 17 Mount Rushmore episodes this year. That's pretty cool. So we're going to end with like 21, which is about half the year. So talk about half the year.

[A]

And we're going to continue that into 2026. We may even continue it into 2027. I'm looking at the evolving list right now of upcoming songs. There's some great stuff coming up next year, so I'm very excited to dive into it. I've got a really great idea about how to kick next year off. So, you know, we got a lot happening.

[C]

I haven't heard this yet.

[A]

This is new info. I was raking yesterday and came up with a new idea. So lots and lots and lots to come. Anything else that we need to cover before we bring Rob on?

[C]

No, I think we should bring Rob on.

[A]

All right, let's do it right now.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

How you doing, man? Hey, Rob.

[B]

I'm doing great.

[A]

Hey.

[B]

I'm excited to be the opening act for Mike Ayers. I really like sharing. I don't know if you've read it yet, but I'm in there very briefly.

[A]

Yeah, you are.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do either of you watch the Drive to survive the F1 show on Netflix?

[A]

No.

[B]

There's a guy that always gets made fun of on the Internet. He's like the F1 journalist. And they obviously use him just to keep the narrative of an episode going. Because I've got these interviews with him where he says the most obvious thing. Like, he'll be like, the important thing about qualifying is driving the fastest lap so that you are in the pole position. And I had joked about him myself. And then in Mike's book, I totally understand why you use me this way, but I have those types. Like, there's a. The chapter on Big Cypress, I think opens with me saying, at the end of the 90s, fish was bigger than ever. Which, Reading that book, I think probably might know that. But somebody's got to say it. Just keep an oral history moving along. So I'm happy to play that role for Mike.

[A]

That's amazing.

[C]

I mean, that's the best thing about the book. It's such a. A piece of the archive that is important to have.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

I definitely.

[B]

I thought I knew. I thought I knew it all. But.

[A]

I definitely read your quotes, thinking there's probably three more paragraphs of context and details here. But I remembered editing undermine episodes where I'd get like really interesting things from someone but kind of have to use their quotes in that sort of manner. So definitely it makes sense. But you were there. And that book got me going back and listening to 90s jam bands in a way I haven't since the early 2000s. I was throwing on mo shows. I was throwing on Panic. I even threw on a couple Keller Williams shows.

[C]

So committed. Brian.

[A]

I apparently attended one of the all time great string cheese incident shows at UIC Pavilion in 2002. And so I threw that on just to see if I'd been missing something. It was a real run down memory lane. It was fun.

[C]

I did have a moment. Rob, when I think I read One of your quotes about how big Cypress was like a must attend if you were a fish fan, and I felt like a really bad fish fan at that point, I was like, well. And I didn't go. So Rob is officially saying that I didn't attend. Yeah. Appreciate it.

[B]

Yeah. Throwing people under the bus who didn't make it. Sorry, Megan, you should have been there.

[C]

I know. I mean, it was obviously the worst decision ever, but I know because you and I have a lot of overlap of time that we were kind of pulled away, away from fish. So it's always fun to see your perspective on that because I overlap with you a lot about that.

[A]

Well, let's dive into it. So, Rob, you have been writing about fish for far longer than you've been writing this substack. I think you mentioned you were writing about them in your college newspaper. I think you reviewed 12697 there. I'm guessing you had your own, you know, blogs and essays going well in advance of this site. You've been writing on Twitter, Wreck Music Fish.

[B]

I think I had some. If you find the archives. I think I reviewed my first show there, Alpine Valley 96. You can look that up.

[C]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[A]

I found myself arguing with a bunch of people on PT the morning after my first show, trying to review it in detail. So I get it. There's all, we're everywhere. So let's just take it back to the start. Tell me if I have this correct. I recall your first reviews coming on Twitter Sometime in 2013, around winter, spring 93, as you kind of saw as like, this is the breaking point. This is where modern Fish kind of begins. I think you then had a medium page at that point and then you were kind of posting as you were finding time and inspiration and then gave yourself a deadline starting with fall 94. Do I have all that correct?

[B]

Yeah. And then part of it has been part of the project has been testing out new, like, online platforms as they come up and become fashionable. Like when I started it, it was when I had just joined Twitter and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to post on this site. But it coincided with sort of post reunion, falling back in love with Fish and realizing, wow, I can download or stream every show, every circulating show, like with a couple clicks. So I'm going to do something that I, you know, in the old tape trading days, I always dreamed of, which is just listen to every show. And then I was like, eh, maybe I don't want to start with Every show. Because, like, the early years, you know, there were some years where their shows were still kind of formulaic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Went over fans. So I was like, all right, 93. I know August 93 is when things start to get crazy. Let's just start at the start of 93. I always say, too, it's when Paige got a real piano, and I have, like, to his, like, synth piano sound before that. It just, like, makes my skin crawl. So I'm like, all right, well, at least I got that. And I can just kind of hear and we'll get into it. Like, I didn't want to just start with August 93. I wanted to hear, like, what are the ingredients that popped up earlier in the year that led up to this sort of breakthrough moments of Summer 93 for them?

[A]

And what did you guys. I mean, context is such a huge thing. We talk about it all the time. Here is what happens around kind of the big tours, the big moments. But as you think back to that, like, did you find when you started, like, that slow build up to August 93, did that reveal something that made you think that you should keep going?

[B]

Well, it was. It was interesting. I'm glad I didn't have to write an essay about every show when I started, and that came later. But I was just live tweeting as I was listening, basically. And it was a good way to find Fish fans on Twitter. I learned, and start conversations. It. They. They started 93 still in that mode of, like, we're playing, you know, clubs, early theaters. We're still kind of doing, like, what I've called sometimes, like, their calling card show where they're. They have to check all these boxes in the two sets. They've got to do a vacuum song. They've got to do Big ball.

[C]

Got you.

[B]

They would do a jam in the middle of the first set. It'd be like a Bowie. It would be a rebound in the middle of the first set, and then they do a big jam, you know, sort of early in the second set. Then they would do a whole bunch of, like, you know, hijinks and things. At the end, they'd play a couple covers that everybody would know. And I think 93, it flipped over the course of that year. They were promoting Rift at the start, and then they kind of realized, hey, we can get away with anything. Like, that was like, the year they realized, we don't have to keep winning over people and playing it safe. We can just be as weird and wacky as we want to be, and people are still going to go along for the ride, so we might as well start branching out.

[A]

Yeah, there's that run from middle of March to kind of early middle of April where they're in Colorado. They go out to California, come north, and then go back across to the Midwest where it feels like one of those special periods where not as many eyes around them and they. They don't feel the need to continue to promote themselves. And so you hear a lot of stashes and a lot of weak a pog grooves that really stretch into really unique places. And I remember listening through that tour and really thinking like, okay, this is where you start to hear. And then obviously August, every show kind of has that special quality to it and they just feel like they're on such a high. But yeah, you start to hear that hints in April, March 93. That's so, so exciting.

[C]

Yeah, I think we had that winter, spring 93 tour. This is our 17th tour, 17th top tour of all time. So we had it. And then we had summer at 5, which is a lot higher. The fan vote had it at 12. But later on. We want to get your thoughts on that because we want to get your thoughts on our rankings. Our top five.

[B]

Yeah, I should bring one.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I think the project evolved and evolution is a big theme that the project evolved as I was listening because, like those early shows, I could kind of COVID in a live tweet environment and didn't feel like I was losing much. But definitely, as you start to get into 94, I felt like I had more to say than I could fit into. What was it at the time? 180 characters. The. So I. Yeah, as you said, I had a medium, I had a Tumblr. I eventually ended up stack. It was just happenstance that it ended up like I started a substack right around when I was about to cover a show 25 years after it happened. So this is a good framework. I'm going to just try and write about every show on its 25th anniversary. I hadn't really given myself a deadline before that, and so it was kind of in spurts. I would do shows when I like listening to Fish, but this, like, kept me, like, on track and I actually, like, we'll talk about how it kind of burned me out, but it also never would have gotten this far into the project if I hadn't set that, like, calendar for myself. That, you know, sticking to covering tours as they happened kind of in real time, 25 years later really helped both you Know, motivate me to write, but also kind of get inside their heads a little bit about like how fast things were happening at certain times or how exhausting it is to be fish and be on the road 23 hours a night, you know, four or five nights a week for six to eight weeks. Can't be easy. So I learned a lot just by kind of following their schedule in the 90s.

[C]

Well, 94 was a really aggressive year still that they're playing a lot.

[A]

Yeah, you've got like four years.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You've got like two more years of these three month long fall tours before they kind of start to shrink it. Like more playing in 97, like throughout the year, but less at a, at a short period of time. I mean, I guess like so as you switch to the deadlines and so now you've been doing it, it was the last six years in full that you were doing 94, 95 through 2000. Tell us a little bit about. And you probably learned this throughout, you know, as, as you got better at it as more, you know, years passed by as you were covering more tours. But what did, what was your process like as you prepared for an upcoming tour and then like as you were going through show to show how far in advance are you listening? What is your writing? Are you taking notes? Like, what's all that like for you?

[B]

Yeah, like I always, like a month before a tour started, I would be like, I need to start banking some and getting ahead of. But the deadline, like really, it works both ways. Like if I have that much time, I don't feel like the urgency to do it. So I would always end up being like two or three weeks ahead of posting. That's good. That's really good enough to light a fire under me. But not, you know, so far in advance that I kept kicking, I could keep kicking it down the road, I guess. And it was so many shows. Sometimes I feel like I wasn't able to give shows as close a listen as I would like. Sure. Because I would pretty much have to like my process was I would give each show kind of a casual listen like in the background while I was doing something else, usually driving or working or whatever. And I would have a Google Doc with notes. Like anytime anything kind of bubbled out of the background and caught my attention. Yeah, I'd be like, all right, I got to go back to that and figure out what was going on there. And you know, some shows I came into knowing what I was going to write about. But what's kind of amazed me. I mean, I've written 500 of them. I think at this point there's. There's rarely a show where after I've listened to the whole thing, I don't have, like, an idea for what I'm going to write about. And like, I feel like there's got to be a limit somewhere where I just can't say anything more about Fish, but I haven't really reached. And I may have repeated myself a few times. I know I've repeated myself a few times, but, like, each show truly is so unique that like, some theme would emerge. Just an ambient listening in that first, like, sort of background listen where I'd be like, here's a thread. I want to pull that and I'm going to start writing about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And dig into the things that support that thread and see if it could sustain, you know, 600 to 1,000 words, which was kind of where most things fell. And, you know, I didn't really have a lot of time to have a third idea, so I pretty much just with whatever the first idea was, in the spirit of improvisation, not quite as live, but, you know, and just, you know, started writing about it. And sometimes it would be a song, sometimes it would be the structure of a set, sometimes it would be some weird banter that I picked up on. You know, there's. Sometimes it'd be the venue, the weather. Like, there's a lot of different dimensions you can go with. I learned from each other show. So, yeah, so then it's just sitting down to write and digging in and re listening to the parts that kind of supported whatever I felt like writing about in that show. So it wasn't always like the highlight of the show too. Like, there were a couple times, oh, you didn't pay enough attention to this great simple. And I would be like, well, that's just not what I wanted to write about with that show. I'll mention it later on when I talk about all the great symbols of that tour or whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Well, I think that's one thing that we loved about your writing, that I love particularly about your writing, is that you're able to. To do both a really kind of detailed examination of certain parts of the show, but also give a larger context in times. And so a lot of these. When you read. Expect to read about Fish shows, you can expect people to like, write about everything that happened or try to break down the show. And that would be so boring. And I feel like it's very. It's Amazing to hear you talk about your process because it's so similar to kind of what we've done in our larger listening projects. And it is challenging. And you do change your process a lot of the time as you're going. And so I love hearing that. That you kind of are listening for a theme or a thread that you can pull through, and it's. Did it get easier as you've gone on? Like, is it something that you can do faster now, do you think?

[B]

Yes and no. And part of that is that we'll talk about this. The Ark of fish in the 90s. It's an arc. It's not like a rising line. 99 and 2000 were toug because I suddenly found myself, like, not really enjoying the shows as much and hearing a tired band that was maybe a little, you know, starting to run out of gas and ideas. And that makes it hard on me because, like, I need ideas. I'm sure I've repeated myself. Like, some of them were towards the end where I was like, you know, I don't want to keep writing the. You know, the band sounds tired. The band sounds tired and burnt out. And I think that it really is just in the same way that, you know, I wrote about cow funk 25 times. Like, that's kind of the story of 2000 is, wow, this band needed a break. So, yeah, so there was a little bit of that working against, you know, just getting in the routine of doing it and getting better at it over time, just as I did it more often.

[A]

Yeah, talk about that. Like, you're almost getting not sick of them by the end of 1.0, but, like, I'm guessing, because I think we have both felt this when we have. So right now I'm going through all of the possums for our Mount Rushmore list, which is about 30 possums that are, like, rated high on the jam chart or we all know, are really good versions. And the goal is to find the four that are the best versions of Possum. And I know based on past experience, regardless if it's listening through winter, spring 93, regardless if it's listening to a bunch of tweezers. At some point, you're kind of like, okay, I need to hear something else. And I'm a little bit sick of hearing Fish for the time being. But you still have this project to finish. Like, did you find that towards the end of tours where you're just like, I would love a week without having to listen to this band, but I still have four More shows to go. And based on the set list, they don't look like the greatest four shows. But I still got to do this. What was that like for you?

[B]

There were definitely times where I was like, is. Am I damaging my fish?

[C]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[B]

Obviously, you know, you feel the same way as me. There's a lot to talk about with this band. It's really fun to talk about this band, and we enjoy it, but, like, you know, it's like eating too much candy, you know, after Halloween. Like, there's a point where it just, like, it starts to turn on you and you're like, is this a good idea? Like, should I really have done this? And, like, you can't really stop because, like, I'm committed to this now. And so I would be very tired by the end of the tour, which, again, it kind of fits because I think a lot of times the band was tired too, or the band was getting, like, a little slap happy by the end of tours, which could make for a good show. And I was getting a little slap happy writing the same thing. So I would do some essays that were maybe a little, like, more unorthodox in terms of the theme that I would choose. So that kind of worked in my favor. But I always got to the end of the tour and was very happy that I could listen to other bands for a while, because there's a lot of fish shows in a tour. They're three hours long. You gotta listen to maybe not the whole show multiple times, but parts of the show over and over again. And, you know, I got a job, I got kids. I have to sleep sometime. Like, I can't have that taking on my attention all the time. So there's been moments where I've been like, you know, maybe the best thing to do for my fish enjoyment is to stop doing this. But usually that's a. It's a momentary moment of doubt, and then, you know, it turns around the next time I hear something. And I just have a great time writing about it, so.

[C]

Well, I think that's why we decided. Go ahead.

[A]

I was just gonna say, we always joke that the AirPods are the greatest invention for, you know, music related podcast parents. Because without the AirPods, I can't do all the chores around the house while consuming all this stuff.

[B]

You know, I folded a lot of laundry doing research.

[A]

Laundry, dishes, mowing the lawn.

[B]

I can do it. Yeah.

[C]

I can walk the dog two hours.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

The dog walk has been like, my key. All of a sudden, my dog walks like, so much longer. I'm like, well, if I can get half a set on this dog walk or if I can get a full set, then, yeah. I think one of the big motivations to do Mount Rushmore this year was that it was songs as opposed to tours. When we did last year, it was, you know, listening to these entire tours in like a week or two and trying to. To understand it thematically. It was just such a massive undertaking. So we get it.

[B]

Yeah. You. You understand.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

My people in that regard.

[A]

Yeah, I guess, like. Like looking at it from a big picture, like 25 years out since the end of 1.0, obviously, that period in time, like say, late 94 to 2000, there's such a. Such an aura around that period in the band's history. The arc you talked about so many big shows. I think that the way that 2.0 played out and the way that they came out in 3.0 for a long time, it felt like, well, we'll never reach these heights again. That you almost can look at that period, kind of this golden era of history that if you just look at it removed, it looks like it was all the band on a high. But then you got into the nitty gritty and you really showcase, even amidst fantastic tours. There are duds even amidst tours that people don't really, you know, celebrate. There are eight 1496's type of stuff that comes out. You were seeing Fish for the first time in the late 1.0 period in time. But now with decades removed and doing this project, do you feel like your perspective on that era has changed significantly? Do you feel, like, properly rated or slightly overrated or underrated? Like, where do you land in terms of how 1.0 fish sounds after going through this?

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, you got at something, which is what I started the project to do. And this is, I think, a leftover frame of mind from the tape era, tape trading era. Is that so often Fish history is looked at in terms of its highlights. Right. So everybody had the big tapes, the classic shows, and it was like, oh, 94 sounded like the bomb factory. Well, no, 94 didn't sound like the bomb factory. Anomalous or, you know, 97 sounded like, you know, Denver, like, things like that. And it was just like going from high to high without any thing in between. Because I was just. Those were just the tapes you got and like, you couldn't listen to the in between stuff. They were harder to get those tapes. Or maybe you just didn't have a reason to get them. So I really. Part of doing the project was to be like, I know that's not true. I want to hear everything so that I can hear what went on between those sort of tentpole shows and hear what led up to that. Like, how early were the, you know, blueprints for fall 97 laid and how did they arrive at this? And, you know, did they hit on it and one show and then forget about it for months and then suddenly it came back? So in a way, I mean, I kind of confirmed that that was true. And maybe, you know, I was going into it thinking that was going to be true. So it's kind of confirmation bias. But, like, I think that's definitely true. And you really hear, you know, what it was like to be a working band and work on these processes and ideas in real time and how much sort of gestation time it took for some of these ideas to explode into the big shows that we know and love. And I think, you know, that didn't really. Sorry about the ding. Weaken my perception of 1.0. Like, I think it deepened it. And I think, you know, kind of. I. Another thing I joke about is sometimes is like, I feel like I'm stuck between two times because I'm listening 1.0 shows in the 90s, but also trying to keep up with Fish right now, which is a great problem to have, but then we get it sometimes instead of three, and that's tough. I love where the band is at now. I talk a lot about this. I think this summer was one of the best tours ever. When I see them now, I am so happy and. And as critical as I am of the 90s, I'm like, mister, I'll take whatever you give me at the show 25 years.

[C]

You can. You can criticize now.

[B]

Exactly. I really try to turn that part of my brain off. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I could worry about this in 25 years. But I do think the change happens much slower now. And what's really impressive about the 90s and what I was only. My appreciation only gained of the 90s is just how fast they went through different phases once they started going pretty much from summer 93 to, I would say, you know, fall 99, and I do think 2000 is when it. They sort of just ran out of steam on this. But it's just. It's amazing how fast this evolution happened. It didn't happen overnight. And that's what the whole point of listening to all these in between shows is, is that it took time for These things to happen. But, you know, 94, for instance, it's a year that they started in one place and they ended up 500 miles away. Like, they could not have more as a band. And then, you know, the next year they're shaking it up and turning into something new. And they pretty much did that every year of the 90s. And that's why you can write so many words about them, is because there was just so much going on. Whereas today, I think they're, like, consistently excellent and new things happen. But it's. It's like a. It's not a glacial pace, but it's a slower pace. It's a more reasonable pace, particularly for people in their 50s and 60s.

[C]

Yeah, that's really. That's really interesting because I think that's one thing that we really wanted to talk to you about, is this idea of, like, one thing that we felt really defined the band after 40 for 40 that series, was thinking about that evolution is something that's always been consistent for Fish. And I love this idea of, like, thinking about the rate of evolution as being what's different now. I like how you speak about that, and I think that's really true. And I think it is cool to think about. Even though the evolution was going really fast in the 90s, like, I think about fall 95, which we put as our number one tour of all time. I saw three shows that September in California which were incredibly mid, you know, and it's like. But these shows. That is part of. That is the beginning of one of the best tours of all time, you know, and it's just so interesting thinking about the work the band had to do to evolve so quickly and how fast they were doing it in the 90s, even that, resulting in shows that today, like, we have very low patience and no tolerance for shows that aren't, like, close to transcendent almost all the time. And in the 90s, we just didn't, like. I didn't. I had the best time at those shows. Obviously, we didn't. We weren't evaluating most of us, Fish, in the way that we are now, I think. But it's so interesting to think about that. Like, the expectations are so different now, too.

[B]

Yeah. And it's funny because, like, you know, when I started this project and I was like, it's. It's very unusual for Fish fans, I think, to do these sort of, like, committed, chronological listens. Like, other people have done projects like this where they've listened to an entire tour, an entire year written about it or talked about it, but that was, like, a weird thing to do for the 90s. And it was something we could only do totally once. It. You know, with these. Being able to stream and download stuff. But if you're talking about today, it's how everybody listens to Fish. Everybody listens to last night's show the next day. And so you now everybody knows every single day. Move in between the big show and people. That makes people more critical, I think, because they have this imprint of, like, the 90s. Oh, it was just great shows all the time. But no, it was. Those were the things. It's like.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Selection bias. Whereas now, like, we hear all the kind of like, you know, the. We hear the work more now. The floor is a lot higher now than it used to be.

[C]

It is, yeah.

[B]

Which is. I think the floor is higher, the ceiling is lower. A lot of people have said that. And that's a good thing because you can go to any Fish show and you're gonna hear, like, a pretty interesting jam. Like there's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That anymore. But, like, you also. You hear the flaws, I think, more than you would have when you were swapping tapes in the 90s.

[C]

So.

[A]

True. Do you think part of that, like, more rapid evolution in the 90s versus today, just from your perspective, has to do with. They're young. The first time that they're really discovering that they can do this sort of stuff versus now? They don't have as much to prove, although it still seems like they're interested in proving that they can still do a lot of this stuff. But do you think it's like an age thing? Do you think it's just styles of music that they were tapping into? What. What did you kind of think about that?

[B]

I think one thing I learned, and maybe this is obvious, but I feel like I have, like, hard data behind it now, is that Fish is a band that needs challenges to continue to thrive and evolve. Right. And in the 90s, they didn't have to work that hard to find challenges, because every year they were playing a bigger tier of venues, right up to the point where they invented a festival to give themselves a new tier to play so that they didn't have to play stadiums. When they got to a certain point where they couldn't get any higher, they started going to Europe, they started doing festivals, they started doing Halloween shows. Like, they created challenges for themselves. They were trying to write different kinds of albums or different kinds of material. They changed their style. They brought in new instruments to their palette. So 90s. They were just. They had all these challenges and these factors that were driving them to continue changing and evolving and still being an exciting band. I think there's times in 3.0 or maybe that or 4.0, whatever, and now where that hasn't been true. Like, they've kind of just done the same tour, the same venue is the same days of the month, like, and maybe that's. Those are the times where they feel like they've gotten a little bit static. But then they'll do something like the Baker's Dozen. Perfect example of a challenge. Like, we'll play 13 shows with no repeats, and we're night. And it was not just great for those shows, but it really lit a fire on them that they're still writing, I think. Or you look at. Like, last year, they did the. The Spear shows, I think, were a type of challenge. They did the Gamehenge set right before that. They did Mondegreen.

[A]

They.

[B]

The. The Halloween shows. Changing the Halloween format to let's write an entire new album and perform it on a particular theme has been the type of thing that drives them. So I think they still. They realize this, and I think. Or at least Trey does. And Trey is always like, we could just go out there and play 50 shows a year and people will be happy. But if we really go for it on these big projects, that's going to make everything else better. So I think maybe they don't do it as much now, or they have to work a little harder to do that because they're kind of like, commercially, they're locked into this circuit that they're in, but they're very good at still creating, like, sort of stretch goals that inspire new creativity today.

[A]

That's a good point.

[C]

Yeah. Now they have to, like, invent them. Whereas, like, you're saying. Yeah, like, I mean, there's nowhere bigger that they can play. There's no. Yeah. So it is interesting. And you look at something like, why did they leave Dicks and go to Folsom? Like, maybe that was them being like, hey, let's do something different. Let's shake it up. Interesting.

[A]

We'll see if that works.

[C]

I hope not, for your sake, Brian.

[A]

We'll see. No, it is.

[C]

It didn't really work this year, but.

[A]

Not this year yet. We'll see. But I think you said this in one of the latter shows of fall 2000 or sometime during the September, October run, that you were looking at the Tour routing of 99 versus 2000, and you were like, they're Almost lining up the exact dates. It's just whatever venues they played in the summer and hence 2000 starting to sound to you similar to 99 without as many advancements at that point in time. So, like, it does. Yeah, it does seem like they need. Whatever band meetings are happening right now about 20, 26 shows. There's probably at some point a conversation about, okay, we're going to do this. If these sphere rumors are true, if Halloween happens again next year, if there's a festival in the near future, all that stuff from a AV standpoint, from a production standpoint, takes time for them to plan. And those are all challenges that, to your point, they kind of need to continue to sustain this. I don't think that we're going to get Fish coming out just playing a typical Fish show, if you. Whatever that would even look like for the next 30 years. They're always going to be some challenge in the future that they have to put forward.

[B]

Right. And even just new material, I mean.

[C]

Yeah, that's a challenge, right? How. Where it goes.

[B]

And I was thinking a lot about why did 2000 not work? And they. They had no festivals, no Halloween show. There were no holidays other than 4th of July, and they had no new material. I mean, they were like, really on fumes. They're like bringing out stuff from Trey and Tom's 97 songwriting because.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is finally getting debuted. And I guess Jennifer dances was 99, but like, stuff like that, like, they're scraping the bottom of the barrel to get some material.

[C]

And the best shows, right, Are in Japan.

[A]

Right.

[C]

The farthest away and the weirdest place, right. That they could go.

[B]

Those are the best shows of 2000 because it's like we're in a new country, we're playing clubs. We're able to play this weird, quiet, textured music that we could never get away with in the United States. And that's a great tour. And then they come back to the States and they're playing, you know, the E Center and Merryweather for the fifth year in a row.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you think about it like, you know, they're on stage, they're seeing the same, like, shed layout, like at 25 different places around the country. Of course you're not going to feel creatively inspired by, like, the same thing you've been seeing for years. So they needed something to shake them up and they just didn't have it that year. And you could hear bled into the music.

[A]

It's. It's one thing I've always been fascinated About. And we talked about this a bit. So we featured fall 98. I think it was like our 15th strongest tour. And if you go back and list that episode, we're all kind of coming to the conclusion that while it deserved to be on that list for Vegas stuff, the Dark side of the Moon stuff, the Worcester show, it was the first tour in the late 90s that we found ourselves listening to. Being like, there are certain sets that just kind of fall flat or there's like a lot of darkness in the music that they're playing right now. Whereas even 97, when it got dark, it always would kind of come back with this celebratory group think, kind of cow funk moment. Like, 98 didn't have that. As much as you were going through this. Did you find, like, a particular show or a run where it just seemed like things started to move into that darkness direction? Whatever reason. I'm just leaving a lot of hints here, but, like, you know, whatever was happening towards the late 90s that would push the band towards hiatus. Did you find that there was a moment where you were like, I don't know if there's any coming, like. Or this is only going to get worse. You know, like, the band would really have to put in a lot of counter work here to improve things. Did that ever hit you?

[B]

Yeah. So there are two shows that stuck out for that. Alpine 99, which was the show I was at, and I think has a pretty good reputation among people. And I'm always trying to push back on it because it's got a lot to do. Jammed out Fluffhead. It's got, like, a really, really weird song.

[A]

Really weird set list.

[B]

Yeah, I scratched off a whole bunch of, like, rarities that I thought I would never see in that show. And I didn't like it at the time. I was like, this feels weird. And I'm coming off of Columbus, which is an incredible show. And the next night in Deer Creek is one of my favorite shows of all time. And that outline show has always stuck in my craws. Like this was. They were. Something was weird. And Trey has talked about this show. He had a golf cart accident. Apparently he. If you watch the video, literally falls over at the end of the set.

[A]

Each set is like an hour long. And they just figure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's one of those shows where they're jamming because they can't, like. Well, maybe just. But somebody in the band. I cannot play a song. So I called it in my essay the first 2.0 show. Now, longtime readers of the project know that I have barely listened to 2.0. I didn't listen to it at all at the time. I was in my decade as an indie rock snob. I was not listening to Fish. I. I'm really excited to listen to him now because, like, it's. It's all new to me. And I think I have a better, like, perspective on it now than I would have, you know, when I. 15 years ago, when I've tried to listen to it. But to me, it has all the, like, flaws that I project onto 2.0, which is. There's. It's jamming because they can't do anything else. So that was definitely like a. All right. The party backstage is spilling out on stage in an unpleasant way. But then as far as, like, burnout. Like, it wasn't until summer 2000 that I was like. There was one I wrote about. June 25th.

[A]

Yes, Raleigh.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Where I was like, man, this band just does not have it. And it wasn't even like a substance thing. It just sounded like they were so tired. And I mean, that the Japan tour was great, but they came back and they were. They started the US Tour like four days later, I think.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Which is just crazy.

[B]

And they started it with like a four day run that covered like a thousand miles. And I was just like, you know, what was management doing to this band? Like, they didn't need to do that. Like, I know there's like economies of scale with a rock tour, but, you know, give them a week to get over jet lag.

[A]

Japan to America. Jet lag is not. That's not.

[C]

That's not good. Yeah.

[B]

And it was just like, all right, this is starting off, you know, the US part of 2000 on the wrong foot. Then they just never got it back. So that more so than, like, substance problems. And maybe I'll hear that in 2.0. But 2000 just felt like fatigue problems, honestly.

[C]

I think, like, the scene was fatigued then too. Like, I was fatigued from the band. I saw one show in 99, actually saw a great show. Charlotte 99. But I feel like everybody was just fatigued too, and kind of overwhelmed with what was happening to the scene, for sure.

[B]

But yeah, and those were my memories of 2000. I saw a few shows in 2000, but not as many as I saw in 99. 99 was my biggest year of touring. And I've thought a lot about, like, why, what, what. What was the switch that flipped with me?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where all Of a sudden, it went from being like, I have to see them. If they're within three hours of where I'm at same, I can barely muster the enthusiasm to go. And then when they went on hiatus, like I said, I just stopped listening to Fish for a decade.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm done with that era of my life and I guess, sure, like, be into this band again, so. And then revisiting the whole year, I was like, yeah, that kind of confirmed my memories. I was like, I wrote a lot more negative essays than other years. Maybe 96 is the only year that compares. And I was like, you know, when you write a negative essay, there's always somebody that is like, oh, I love this show. I went to the show.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I get. And I love that they comment that. And I want that to be out there. And I never tried to write the definitive take on a show for that reason. Everybody experiences it in a different way. But in 2000, I rarely got that comment.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, I was there. It was a bummer. Or, you know, the vibe was off or. Yeah, that show just, you know, I was in the crowd. I have attendance bias. And it just didn't work for us either.

[C]

Wow, that's so interesting.

[B]

There was a collective fatigue in the scene.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You could feel it coming from the band and both directions. That's with all great areas of band audience feedback.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

The.

[B]

The scene had turned dark. Those of us who were there. No, the drugs were bad in the scene, too. And it was just, you know, it was bad all over. It was bad times, and it. It shows up on tape.

[C]

Let me remember to. To hear 2.0, because it kind of blew my mind. Like that 2003 winter tour. I don't know. I feel like we rated it too low in our tour list, and it kind of blew my mind, and it was the one that I really didn't want to stop listening to out of all of them. But, I mean, I'd heard it the least, so I think that's part of it, too. But, I mean, we put it at 10, and I think all of us at our kind of recap episode thought it was maybe a little too. I know RJ did. Didn't RJ put it in his top 5 if he would have redone it again?

[A]

I think so. I mean, Rob has heard my preaching about 2.0. I will hold back. I'm just. I'm waiting for. What is it? December 31, 2027, we get our first show from that. So I'm just. I'm Waiting for that period to just enjoy, enjoy his takes. Because, yeah, I think I feel the same way. I think that some of your scrunkier musical inclinations are you're going to hear stuff that you're going to really enjoy amidst what you're talking about. Like that 72499 show is one of the few shows that when I listen to, I get like, kind of terrified just from the listening experience, even though I know what's going to come. Like, we put that Fluff Head on our Rushmore because it really introduces what's possible with Fluff Head in the subsequent 25 years. But it's by no means the best played Fluff Head. It's very slow. It's clearly a band trying to figure it out. It is interesting though, you mentioned 625 2000. I don't know if you read Mr. Miner's fish thoughts when that was coming out in like succession in the early 3.0 period, but he was, he was known for being extremely positive about the early 3.0 fish period and really rooting the band on. And I gave him applause for that. But, you know, there were times where people like, can you be a little bit more critical? Like, what? Have you ever seen a Fish show you didn't like? And he finally wrote an essay about the worst Fish show I saw, and it was 6:25, 2000. And in the essay he was like, I try to find something positive to say about everything. And the best thing I can say about the show is that they kind of came together on Split Open and Melt, like every show he tried to. And then he was like, this is the one show where I left. And I was like, no, they just did not have it tonight.

[C]

No.

[A]

Well, you sent us over a list of some of your. We asked you for underrated shows that you discovered because part of the joy of what you're talking about here, and I think what we find in these listening projects is you get this big, like 10,000 foot view of what a tour means and what the sound is like. But then within that you get a lot of unique, kind of weird oddity shows where things either work against the grain or it's kind of a moment where certain songs that haven't been featured in previous great shows are kind of starting to bubble up. The list you sent over, I'll just read it to everyone. If there's any show in particular here that you want to dive into. Meg, if you have thoughts on this, obviously, as well. 112694 from Minneapolis 10, 11, 95. A show that I listened to for the first time because of your essays. And I was like, how have I missed this show? It's one of my favorite second sets from that tour. 8 hours, 14 minutes and 96 seconds from.

[B]

No, I picked. I picked 815. 96. I made a cheeky pick.

[A]

Excuse me. You picked the sound check.

[B]

I picked the Clifford Ball soundtrack.

[A]

I should explain that we got to talk about that then, because that is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned earlier, like, 96 was another year where I was writing a lot of, I think, negative essays. Because I went into 96 being like, oh, this year has a bad reputation. I bet I'm going to find all this great buried treasure.

[C]

You didn't, did you, Rob? I was there. I saw the most fish I've ever seen that year, I can tell you. There's not a lot of buried treasure. A lot of fun, but not a lot of buried treasure.

[B]

And it's such a. It's a frustrating year because it's between these two amazing years. And it's like, what happened. And almost made even more frustrating by the Clifford Ball sound check. And you could throw in the flatbed jam, too. You. I wrote an essay about both of those sets. Yes. Because they show you fish knew what. They knew what the next step was. Or maybe they didn't know what the next step was. They had all the ingredients there for the next step. They just weren't doing it in the actual show. And, like, if it's so weird people out there haven't heard the Clifford Ball soundtrack. The version that's on, like, you know, fishing and re. Listen is terrible. It's a really bad source. So you gotta go on YouTube. You gotta find the pro shot video, which is great because it's them checking all the cameras for the film shoot for the Clifford Ballpark. But you get the whole hour, and it's an amazing hour. It, like, would hold up with any of the festival secret sets. And in that hour, they do all the interesting things that they would do in 97. And if you include the Flatbed Jam, you're even getting into, like, 98. 99 experience.

[A]

Very atmospheric and things like that.

[B]

And so it. I. You know, in putting together this list, I'm like, what 96 show I'm gonna pick? And I'm like, all right, I'm gonna cheat and I'm gonna pick.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

Breaking the rules.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's a great goal.

[B]

Yeah. And what. What is in common with all these dates? And we can get back to the list in a minute. Yes. What I really love to find in this project is foreshadowing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So shows that have maybe just one jam or maybe just a short sequence that predict what I knew was going to happen. You know, sometimes months, even years in the future. So that Minneapolis show in 94 has a great Bowie. If you've never 37 minute Bowie. I think in a way it's sort of a, you know, a prelude to the Providence Bowie. Like, that's closest, of course, but it's really great. Like, in terms of like, I think a lot of the trade fish interplay that powers 95. Like, you get this real. These muscular, like, sort of like competitive jams between, driven by Trey and Fitch trying to outdo each other. And I think there's enough of that in there along with the sort of like abstract late 94 bowies that. That we're more familiar with. Or like the 101195 show. Megan, you mentioned this earlier, like, early in fall 95. It doesn't sound anything like the end of 95. Fall 95. No.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So when did that change? When did that flip switch flip? And I think where it really flipped is probably the Lincoln show with the Tweet Fries opener. That's like the first. You're like, all right, this is fall 95.

[A]

Like, there's like an arrogance to it. There's like a loudness of bombastic. Yeah.

[B]

But if you go back right from the start and you're like, all right, this band is extremely confident and extremely, like, yeah, muscular, I guess, is how I would describe it. And the 10, 1195 shows, it's a weird, like, in between where there's. There's interesting jams all over the show. It's kind of a 93 set list in a lot of ways. It's got a lot of like, weird, interesting segues and things and like that kind of like sugar high energy. But you can start to hear this more mature confidence of fall 95 coming in. So I love those transitional shows where it's like, this is like between two eras. And you can hear what they used to do well in the past as well as what they're starting to figure out for the future. So that's where all of these.

[C]

That 94 one is cool too, because it's like they're using some of the tricks that they do. Kind of their jokey stuff. Like, Fishman brings out the vacuum in that Bowie. Right.

[B]

But he uses it in a serious fashion. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And like a cool Spacey Jam. And it's like, yeah, guys, like, we can take these kind of. Of tropey things that we're doing and use them in a more sophisticated way. And I think that's such a cool. I love that idea of the foreshadowing what's about to happen. But, yeah, I was at that 10, 11, 95 show, and I have zero memories of it. I don't know. I always saw a lot of shows that fall, and I remember all of them except that show. I was in Tucson, at school in Arizona then, and I drove up. My friends. I have the ticket stub. My friends are, like, telling me I was there, but it's just so weird. I guess that's the 90s, but. But that show is. Right away, it's different because of the way it opens with the stash. It just rips right open. And a couple of these shows that you have on here are like, that. They have, like, that really great opening. That's just different. What's the show that starts. Oh, the Hershey show. Oh, that was the 96 show the day before. Yeah, the Wilson one. But I love the idea of the Clifford Ball Jam. I think that's perfect because of the Soundcheck Jam. Because everything good that was happening in 96 was happening offstage. Like, the workshopping and the figuring out what was going to be next, like, that was happening not in front of the audience, in a way. So it's kind of perfect that that would be like, the definitive show from that. From that year, in a way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was like them learning. And we were talking about them being a confident band in 95, but, like, kind of like relearning the confidence to then reinvent themselves, which they were doing for the, you know, 97 through 99. Because they were doing all these interesting things off stage, but, like, they just didn't have the faith that they could bring that the show, I think, and still make everybody happy. It was kind of like they had to, like, this last hump of, like, we're gonna risk alienating some fans in order to do what makes us most excited. And that's. That's what ended up happening in 97. But it's just funny to hear that it was there in 96 and they weren't doing it in front of people.

[A]

It is interesting because if you go back, like, I think, you know, remain in light, there's a switch that's then flipped. And there are more highlights throughout November and early December than what you would hear in. In August or October. But it's like this one big highlight amidst the most straightforward Fish show and fish set list. Like a lot of those first sets in fall 96, you kind of just. You see the songs. You see how long they played the songs for. Maybe you listen to a couple of them because you like the set list. But it just sounds like, this is how you play Fee. This is how you play United Sky. This is how you play Split Open and Melt. And then you'll get the bathtub gin from Rupp. You'll get the gin from Kansas City. You'll get kind of the weird stuff that happens towards the back end of the year. The Seattle second set is great, but those are just like islands within a year, where it's clear, which is so strange to think about that year compared to fall 95, where they're still proving themselves and they're still working towards. It's the first time they're going to play MSG on New Year's Eve. And it's clear that whatever the sound they were playing with, the venues, the build up to New Year's Eve, there's so much. There's so much just energy behind what they're doing, so much creativity. And then there's clearly, just one year later, they're now playing these arenas. And there's kind of this question of, well, why are we doing this? What are we doing this for? What's the next step? And that had to be frustrating in the moment, I've got to imagine for the band as well as the audience. But also, we know what the end results were. And kind of looking towards the late 90s, you threw. I want to make sure I got dates right now. 624.97. Right. This is the Wolfman. Okay. Perfect. 6, 30, 98, 7, 7, 99 from Charlotte, and 9 17, 2000. Talk about kind of those shows and what they signify for you.

[B]

Yeah. So I picked the two Europe shows in 97 and 98. And another, I guess, thing that I knew going into the project, but, you know, it confirmed, I guess, as I was listening, is how they used Europe in 96, 97, 98, and how they really turned Europe into, like, the safe space out of the spotlight where they could try some new things and innovate and then bring it back to the United States. And everybody kind of knows that's the story of 97 is like they sort of workshopped the funk approach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Brought it back and destroyed America the.

[A]

Rest of the year.

[B]

Why I picked this show is because it's like right between the, you know, the Hamburg show in the. In the spring and like Amsterdam coming up the week after this. Because it's again like a case of like, obviously those are big landmark shows that are turning points in Fish's evolution. But that whole. Both of those tours, they were like working on this. And I think what the Strasberg show really reinforced for me is that it isn't about the funk jams themselves. Like, that was a means to an end and like the Funk how to Play that was great and opened up a new world for them. But. But what it, why it's interesting is what happens after the funk jam. It ended up being a bridge to get them out of the jam structures that they were used to in a lot of songs to totally fresh, original territory. And there's a couple jams, the Wolfmans and the Ghost in that show that it's a case where like I wrote an essay that I was just like, I figured something out. And I keep referring back to that essay the next three years of like, this is where maybe the band figured it out or maybe I just figured it out on this night that they had developed funk to be a tool to just like sort of get them out of their normal track and into new, more interesting areas. So that's why I picked that one. And then the Copenhagen show in 98, the 98 year old tour is not that good. That was one surprise to me. I thought it was going to be great because I love 98 and the island tour of course is incredible. No, no, no arguments there. And I 98, like, even though like you said, like there's a lot of ups and downs in those tours. Like I just like that in between space 99 sounds and I think it's really fun. And this show I think is like the. It's a really quiet show. It's a really textural show and it's one where you can hear what they were going to try and do through 98, 99, 2000 start to emerge where it's like we're not going to go for the big peaky finished every jam. We're going to have jams that kind of like unwind. And I called it, I ended up calling it Entropy Jamming as I was writing it. Jams where things just kind of fall apart over the course of the jam, but in a really interesting way. And they do that all over this show. And it really felt like, like, you know, the recording of Story of the Ghost Sicadis comes out of Those sessions, too, they really turned a corner again off stage, where they learned sort of, like a new textural way to play. And this is like, the first, like, dipping their toe in the water of, can we do this on stage? Can we do this in front of people? And the 7799 show is kind of like a later example of that. It's like, can we do this in front of an American and summer Shed audience? Megan, you were at this one?

[C]

I was at this one, yeah.

[B]

So I pose in my essay. Like, I kind of feel like this show, people didn't like it, I would think, like. Cause it was.

[A]

I loved it.

[C]

Yeah, I loved it. But I mean, I was also, like, seeing fish like, once or twice a year at this point. But I was super into rave music, and I was into, like, trance and house, and I was seeing a lot of, like, that kind of stuff. And so there's so much, like, ambient, just stuff to get completely lost in. And I thought the second set was just. It was also meeting me where I was with my extracurricular activities at the time, and it was just a really, like, dreamy show to just kind of get lost in. And for me, it was also pretty exciting to not haven't seen Fish that often this point anymore. And I was rabidly following them, you know, in 95, 96, 97. And then to kind of pull back and come back and hear them doing something so wild as this. I loved this show. I know, but I know some people didn't love it at the time. I think there were still people wanting to see that really punchy, tight, explosive Fish. And this is so, like, swampy and looping and, you know, drippy. And I loved it at the time, but, yeah, it wasn't a universal. Universal enjoyment. But this is, like, to me, it has the. It still has enough of the 97 dance party, but. But then it has, like, the 98ambient stuff. And then, like, that feeling of, like, nothing left to lose of 99. Like, just, like, put it all on the floor, like, who cares? And I think this show is, like, a perfect example of that. And we talked about the show on 40 for 40 and I got to choose that week. And I remember I was talking to Brian a lot about before this choice, and I really, like, had a hard time. And I went with this show because I think it is fairly underrated by the fan base.

[A]

This will appeal to you, Rob, because I'm just checking fish.net reviews about this show. This is the show for any fish Fan who is still waiting for Fish's Halloween cover of Yellow Tango's I Can Hear the Heartbeat. So this is right in your zone.

[B]

Yeah, it makes sense that I would like it then. Yeah, I got the first one.

[A]

I listened to this because we. Yeah, we talked about this for our 40 for 40 series as kind of our 99 representative show. And listening through, I mean, the 2001, I don't think this gets talked about nearly as much. I think if you're talking about 99, 2001, people typically go for the Memphis version, which is phenomenal. But it's like a seven and a half minute ambient intro to this 2001. It's all those sounds, all those styles. And then just when you think, okay, we've gone into the energy portion of the second set. My left toe into Weight in the Velvet Sea, into my left toe is the centerpiece of this show. Like in the. In the middle of the second set, which I think a lot of people would say is kind of like War crime set listing. But it works so, so well.

[B]

Bug.

[A]

Like it flows really nicely into that. And then the you enjoy Myself as well is kind of textured with that 99 sound. It reminds me of something that, like, we have been pretty obsessed with here as we started doing these more annual projects. You know, what is the representative show of year as you go through the 40 years of the band? Okay, what are the representative jams of a specific tour that is known as a great tour? What. What are the representative versions of these songs? Is when you find a set like this that just kind of encapsulates what 1999 fish sounds and feels like as a whole. And I think that this show does. Does a great job of that. And it still is a decent rating on dot net. But for whatever reason, I feel like this is. If someone's going to pull for a Show from Summer 99, they're typically going to go Camden or they're going to go. Yeah, the final, you know, the Columbus show, Deer Creek Night one. There's like very specific shows that people reach for. And this is definitely on that. A little bit. A little bit underrated in that sense.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's a show that plays great on tape.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is good counterfactual. Megan. Like how I played in the Room Room. Because like I pointed out in the essay, I think only four of the song. Four of seven songs in the second set have singing. It takes a half hour.

[A]

So true.

[C]

It's so true.

[B]

And it is just like I mean, it's like the start of the band's last great experiment of the night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is like, how minimal can we get it in America's arenas and amphitheaters without losing everybody? And it's like, there's a direct line from this to fall and winter 99, when, you know, sand and Jabu are brought in to be, like, these really long, minimal, loopy songs. Right. And then it started to creep into other older Fish material as well. So. Fits that sort of, like, foreshadowing thing that I like, which is just, like, are hitting upon something here that they want to. They're going to try and they're going to iterate on for the next several months.

[C]

Yeah, I love that. It's so funny. I mean, the first set is really weird. Like, it's got the flow is super off, like, Back on the Train. And then what's the use? And then Billy breathes like, it's crazy. It's like they were. There's really just no flow to it. But it still works for me. And the second set is just like one giant flow, so it's fine. But yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's wild that they ever even decided to play the second disc songs which weren't even songs, like, live. Like, and that is 99 is like. Like, they felt like they could do this. Like, let's relearn this channel we played in the studio and turn it into something we. I mean, my Lefto isn't even a song. It's like a drum beat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whatever they want on it. But I. You know, I was eating it up that summer. I looked that.

[C]

I know. Same.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, that was. Those were the good days. And then 2000, I was like, again, like, 96. Like, what am I gonna pick here? And I went with 917 because it's got that really interesting stretch in the second set where it's like. There was a way to lean into their exhaustion and do some interesting music, I think. And I think it might be. I have to confirm this, but Maybe it's foreshadowing 2.0 a little bit in terms of, like, this is. You know, it's the stretch that I like is the theme from the Bottom Dog Log Mango song. And that you can find, I think, live bait soundboard versions of it. And it's just really great and it's interesting and it sounds like the next step of what they were trying to do with that 98, 99 sound, but they just. They didn't get to that point. Very often in fall 2000. So it's like. It's a loose thread. It was like a dangling thread that they laughed when they went on high hiatus. And I'm interested to see is this gonna pay off when they start playing shows again.

[C]

I did not remember there was an 18 minute mango song that. That was played ever until I re listened to this today. I forgot about that.

[B]

The Mango song was like one of the few songs in fall 2000 that like peaked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fall 2000. And it's great. Like, what a weird song to suddenly bloom at that time. Hey, they would take inspiration wherever they could find it, I think in 2000.

[C]

Yeah. It's a pretty cool set, though. I hadn't listened to that in a really long time. I'm glad you recommended that.

[A]

Something about outdoor shows during early fall when there's just enough of a chill in the air. We saw that fall 2021, whenever they played outdoors in California. They seem to kind of just have a little bit extra that they could play with because the weather just ends up feeling like Northeastern festivals from two months earlier. You know, just like that chill in the air seems to inspire them. And I imagine Merryweather in mid September had that vibe too.

[B]

You want a show where that's mostly in the dark. I think that's fairly that too.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

If you're playing outdoors in the fall, you get more dark time.

[A]

We just saw this in Birmingham and Alpharetta. You know, once they. Once they play these outdoor amphitheater shows, everything kind of connected. Did you mentioned, you know, that 77 show and kind of starting the last great reinvention or however you worded it of 1.0. Obviously you're not writing about modern fish, but there. There has been a lot happening in the last four or five years, you know, since they came back from Coronavirus Pandemic, where they seem to be reinventing themselves on a slower scale. But like, you know, every tour has notable shows, notable jams, notable sets. To go back and listen to something that wasn't always guaranteed during the last couple years of 3.0. I'm curious how you hear their evolution now or their jamming style now in comparison to the 90s.

[B]

Yeah, I find it. I find the jams now to be very fluid and very narrative in a way that they weren't always into in the 90s. Like, part of why I picked that Bowie from 94 is like a lot of the really long 94 jams are just kind of like, here's 35 minutes of randomness.

[A]

Where they're doing ideas and see what happens.

[B]

They're doing the exercise where it's like every two minutes we're gonna try something new sort of thing.

[C]

And yeah.

[B]

I think it's another, like, bias of the big show thing in the 90s where, like the big memorable sets and jams have that kind of narrative baked in. But that didn't happen all the time. Like, you know, my. My beloved Palace 97, that set too, is like, you know, it's like a story. Like it has.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Structure within the set. Like it has peaks and valleys and it just like builds to this, you know, incredible sort of meta peak over all the songs.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I feel like they can do that now nightly in a way that they could. And that's, I think kind of the improv, the jamming innovation of the last five years is that they, they're. They're playing these really long jams that don't really. Don't really get tedious. Like, and they have kind of like a nice progression that can sometimes feel a little formulaic, I think, like maybe. And maybe that's like the trade off is like, if you're gonna try for these narrative jams. And that's part of like the Trey always bringing it back to the song thing, which I know annoys. It annoys me. I should put it in other people's mouths that he always insists on. Like, hey, remember we were playing Ghost?

[A]

Like, I know exactly what you mean. Can you just segue? Just figure out, yeah, we don't need it.

[C]

We don't need it.

[B]

But. And. And then, you know, and they do kind of like they, they get peaky sometimes. Like they, they build towards like a big major key jam sometimes, but not always. And I think that, that and the mystery. My favorite show that I saw this summer was the first night of the United Center. I'm blanking on the dates. I don't have the date.

[A]

7:18, something like that. Yeah.

[B]

We had a big what's going through your mind? But it led up to that. But I think no man and no man's land into what's going on in your mind.

[C]

Yeah, that was a great show.

[A]

Then what came Cross eyed afterwards. Cross eyed right after that.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was one of those what I'm talking about where like, like the what's going through your mind had a great, I think, narrative and great, like several distinct themes, but you take those three together and you get an even bigger sort of meta narrative over it. And I think they're Just so good at that. They have those instincts. And I think the intra band communication is like as strong as it's ever been. And my buddy Joel Burke, you probably know, taper Joel Burke here in Chicago, is always on me about how now that they're all using in ear monitors, that's why they're better. And it might be like. I really do think that sometimes it's like a technological switch. It could be a new age gets a new keyboard, you know, or it starts using his synthesizer more and the baker's doesn't. And it like opens up a whole new sound for them.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or, you know, Trey gets his keyboard or his minikit and it changes the sound. Maybe not always in positive ways, but it definitely changes.

[A]

Is.

[B]

But the in ear monitors and I think they have like the ability to talk to each other offline now too. I don't. Trey was doing that one tour a few years ago, but I don't know. But like, that cross side is a great example. Somehow they all knew to drop in a cross side like on a dime. And maybe it ruins the magic a little if they were like. If Trey's like, all right, cross eyed on four, rather than the sort of mental alignment. But I think that might be part of it too. But. And also I. I made a big deal of the. I haven't had a chance to write about it. I will in 25 years. Mike moving back to the middle, I think. I really don't think it's just an optical thing. Like, I think having him right next to Trey.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

I can hear them talking way more than they have been.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

That was so evident this summer. It was so evident. I mean, just their excitement too, to be next to each other. And the way that they were communicating was pretty big deal.

[B]

Yeah. So it's, you know, the patterns I was observing in the 90s were seemingly small things. I mean, I wrote about the opposite of that, I guess. I wrote about when Trey moved to, you know, stage left and all of a sudden it sounded like Trey. A lot of jams. It was Trey playing with himself, like loops, doing a synthesizer, not listening to the rest of the band. And the rest of the band just kind of like, you know, follow me.

[A]

We'Ll keep it going.

[B]

But like, Trey's off in his own, you know, know, toy box. Right. Yeah, stuff like that, I really do think influences the band. And we got a great year of like the opposite of that where like reconfiguring, I think, you know, triggered some new. New directions for them. So I mean, it's just like. Like I said, higher floor, lower ceiling. You could be about that. But also, I. I just say it all the time. Like, we're so lucky to have the band in such a good place. And, like, writing about them 25 years ago, particularly this year, where 2000 was such a bummer year, and you're like, I get why they went on hiatus. I get why they thought they might not even come back from this hiatus. Yeah, they really sound spent creatively. And then to like, all right, put away, you know, 625, 2000 and turn on. I don't know if there was a six. 25, 20, 25, but, you know, it's six tweet prizes and being like, oh, my God, like, it's still going. 25 years later, they figured it out. Like, they're better than they ever were in some ways. Like, yeah, it was so fulfilling. So those times when I was feeling burnt out, I could be like, this is great. I got 25 more years of shows and counting to write about. I'll be doing this until I die, apparently.

[C]

That's amazing. Well, I hope so. We need to.

[A]

We'll see if you survive summer 2016. I promise that after that, there's a lot more interesting stuff to write about, but, you know, we'll just get you through that.

[B]

I'm a little worried about that early 3.0.

[C]

3.0 is going to be a bit of a slog. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's gonna be another one where I'm like, how many times can I write? Like, oh, they're relearning how to play.

[A]

They're still figuring out. Exactly.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah. But I do think what.

[A]

What you were saying in October 2010, that will. That will keep you going in a nice way. But. But outside of that, there's definitely. There were definitely stretches where it was just like, is this. Are we really back in 1992 again? Like, are we just hearing the band figuring things out and how long can we just be, like, happy that they're back? But yeah, no, it's. It's. It's interesting to kind of. Kind of compare and contrast because there was so much Pride in the 90s around the DIY nature of the fish scene and the fact that they were, you know, building so organically, and then everything falls apart in a lot of ways. And now they have resources in place, plus technology, you know, like the IEMs. Like, there's just such a way for them to communicate on stage that you can hear it come across on the tape. And there's a part of me that's like, yeah, is some of that magic of like hearing a segue build over three or four minutes where the band's figuring out like 6, 29, 2000, going from that drowned into the rock and roll. You can hear that build. And that's all just years and years on the road. Nowadays that may be a shorter segue, but just as impressive because they can communicate in different ways. I don't know, there's. There are trade offs, as you're saying.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's just as hard to do what they're doing now. You know, you don't have the hunger when you're younger. But I think one thing we talked about is that, you know, the evolution now is just their consistency. You know, like you said, they're just able to be consistent, consistently produce like. Like way better than average, great shows. Right. Like, they're consistently producing at a level I think that is. They weren't even doing consistently in a large part of the 90s. And I think that is kind of what the new evolution is and is the magic loss of that. I don't know. It's pretty thrilling. I mean, you think about a show like that spack to a prize show, like just the reach of that and how exciting it is that they can do something like that at this age and this far into their career and how we can all watch it happen in real time together, even if we're not there and talk about it the next day. Like, that's. It's a pretty awesome time.

[B]

Yeah. I think the flip side, I guess was that in the 90s and even in the darker days, at the end it always felt more dangerous in a way that I don't think it's dangerous now. It cut both ways. Like, it could mean a really bad show. It could mean a show that is just unlike anything you've ever heard before. And yeah, I don't think you get the. Unlike anything you've ever heard before so much today. But. So, like, some of the risk is gone. But, you know, that also has benefits where, like you said, consistency and like, honestly, they just couldn't have survived that at that level.

[C]

That level of risk is really dangerous. Like, literally.

[B]

I think a lot about, like, you know, what we expect of artists, not just fish. But yeah. And like, it is incredibly hard work to constantly reinvent yourself and to play a ton of shows and to take chances and risks and like, I don't, you know, it's. It's It's. It's good that they found this happy place, like, the right amount of shows to play every year, playing longer runs in one city, like, it's just needs to really suit them in a way that doesn't sacrifice a ton of their creative process, but is healthier for both them and us, I think.

[A]

Well, I think you see Trey now recognizing his role as he's gone down that path. He survived, you know, wherever that all led him, like, he survived. And now they're at a point where the band is thriving. They're really creative, and it's a really good example because I think you would have seen the. The typical trajectory of bands through that period were to just break up and then they go their separate ways, and you get, like, Trey, solo tours for the next 25 years, that's the closest thing you get. And the fact that the band remained friends and were willing to work through all the challenges that they were dealing with to get to where they're at right now, it. It's so interesting to then look back at that late 90s period. I got my first fish tapes in summer 2001. So, like, during that hiatus period, all I was ever told was, like, well, you'll just never see Fish at their best. And then when they came back and they were a little sloppy and a little grungy, like, well, you never. You'll never see Fish at their best. And we now see, you know, 25 years later, that period in time is kind of cast in a little bit more reality. You know, there's less, like, glow of it, but there's also this, like, really deep, impressive bulk of work that you did such a great job here, highlighting and targeting the ups and downs and the challenges. I have a couple rapid fire questions for you. So we did last year this big project where we went through and we tried to rank what we thought were the 25 best fish tours of all time. This was two we did not include last summer or this summer. We will go back and we will do this again in 2049, whenever we are, 2015, 50, whenever we do this again. But we came up with our top five tours, and I just want to list them to you. I want to hear your thoughts. Did we get this right in your mind? Is there anything else you would have slot in here? So number five, we had summer 93, as this kind of like, big breakthrough changes the entire game of Fish. Or we had summer 98, the just amazing Trey tone. All the. All the covers throughout the tour. Some really great Big jams throughout there. It's really just a fun tour to Listen back to. 3. Fall 94. Huge, groundbreaking jamming shift. The introduction of the COVID albums over Halloween. So many highlights, so many shows have been released. Rightly so. I know I found a lot of that tour to just be fascinating on a level that kind of blew my mind. Two controversial fall 97 and one controversial fall 95. I could spend the next 10 minutes telling you I think fall 95 is the best sound any band has ever made. But I will hold you off because I did that on an episode about fall 95. But what are your thoughts on that top five list? Did we get anything egregiously wrong here? Should we make a bigger risk and thrown a 3.0 tour on there just to kind of ruffle some feathers?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I would go that far, though. I mean, it's the LeBron Jordan debate of a fish, right? It's like, how are you? I thought summer 2025 was incredible. I think it deserves to be in the conversation of best tours ever. But, like, what number are you gonna put it at? And is it apples to oranges? Like, it's tough to say. I mean, fall 95 and 97.

[A]

There'S.

[B]

There's no wrong answer there. They're forever. Like it's one or the other. Right? I mean, it's a. It's a solid pick. The only one I would potentially throw in there, and I don't know what I would throw out to make room for it, is probably December 99. Like, I wrote a little bit about this, but I was like, is December 99, you know, 8 a top tier tour? In the same way that December 97 and December 95 are a top tier fish month, let's say. And if you include Cyprus, I think it's. It probably just about gets there. I think it's such like a pure execution of what we were talking about earlier. That last great fish experiment of the 90s, that. And it has so many. It has really high quality shows and really. And a lot of, you know, standout individual jams as well. And then where did that fall. Did you have 199 in the top that landed.

[A]

And I just want to read what's above it. Because we did not include Cyprus and part of that was content availability, where we can now do a ranking of the best holiday run. So we had to keep ourselves. We had to keep options on the table for years beyond. But 12 was winter 99. 11 was summer 2017, Baker's Dozen and 10 was winter 2003. Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, I would probably put it in my top 10. It's hard to bump anything out of.

[C]

That top 10.

[B]

But I haven't done 2.0 yet. So maybe.

[C]

I think for 99 too. I think where it ended was, I think the jams, the creative use of effects, like the layering, like that wild setlisting that winter 99 tour is amazing. But there is a lot of repetition in the jamming.

[B]

Yes. I mean there's a lot of.

[C]

And I think that's why we ended up having it around 12.

[A]

I think if you include Cyprus, like if you include on these fall tours, the New Year's Eve, like we're in a different space. But I'm just looking at the top jams we have for that. Even something like that Auburn Hill show, I don't think it's the greatest overall show. But then you have that segment of Gin 2001. You enjoy myself with that just amazing jam within the. You enjoy myself. And you just hear this band that is while maybe not reinventing what they can do on a night to night basis and kind of playing around in a very specific sound. That sound is so pleasing like that. The Halleys from Portland. The Ghost in 2001 from 1211. The Drown from 1212. The Tweezer from 1216. Like there's just so many moments on that tour where if I just wanna. If I just want a jam to kind of like disappear in for 30 minutes, I've got it on that tour.

[B]

Sure. It's kind of like I want to have like. I guess if I was making a list I would want to have, you know, something that represents the different phases of Fish. And that one is like one of these outer points of where they. They went with their music. That totally needs representation, I think. So I guess maybe I would bounce summer 98, which. Which kills me because I love 1998 is my favorite year of Fish, but it's also something that I feel like is just consistently really enjoyable to listen to. It's so fun, but not really peaky and like a. A career peak in the same way. Like, it's just like.

[C]

It's not as like wildly creative, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They know what makes them good. They know what they do well.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And part of it is like building on 97 and also working towards 99. And that's interesting, but it's not like, like, I guess it's a little bit three like modern era in a way where feels like they're taking fewer risks, but what they're doing is so good. So good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For it. Like, good point. Yeah. So. Yeah. So that.

[C]

That.

[B]

Yeah. Gun to my head, it's swap out summer 98.

[C]

Swap out 98. What do you. What do you think about, like fall 21? We had that at 8. What do you think about that up in the top 10?

[B]

So I have this problem with the modern era of fish where I. My. My brain has not quite slotted things into like, tours and dates. Like, I was fumbling.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, like, what happened in fall 2021? I can't even like go to it in my head, like, what is the case for fall 2021?

[A]

For. For us, the case. So that that tour starts with a really bizarre show in Sacramento where Trey proves that he doesn't know dates for fish shows because he says, hey, we were here like six years ago. And people in the front row start yelling it was 96. But that show or that tour, San Francisco, night one, tons of just ridiculous jams early in the first set, second set, you get this 20 minute Carini to end things out. A four song second set on 1017, 1019 opens with a 25 minute Down With Disease as a 30 minute Ruby Waves. The next night, Chula has crazy jams right out the gate. And Fluff Head Nicu, there's a great piper towards the end. You get the Vegas 2021 run where night one is the number show. So it's kind of the fuck your face type of show with just a bunch of jam. It's just like it felt like any song at any point in the set could jam at that point in time. And when we go back and listen to it, there's six, seven highlights in a set. It feels like at times there was.

[C]

Literally an average of 6 jams per show on that tour. I mean, that's insane. It was just monster. And I think because of the context of coming back from COVID and then being off that, no one expected 21 to be that good, I don't think. And it was just so creatively rich for them.

[B]

I think what happened here is I was writing about fall 1996 in 2021, so depressed by that experience that I didn't go to listen to.

[A]

There is a tough stretch of fall 96 right in the heart of fall 21. So you were probably just like, can I just get ahead here just enough.

[B]

It was one of those Years where I was like, I wish I didn't have to listen to old fish so I could listen to new fish instead.

[C]

Well, you have that to look forward to. It rules when get to revisit it.

[B]

Again now that I have a break. Most of a break. Most of a decade to. To take off.

[C]

Yeah. Talk to us about what you're going to do.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can reveal.

[C]

Are you gonna. Are you gonna reveal that?

[B]

I'll spill it because it's coming soon. So what I realized. One of the things I realized right about fall 2000 is the curtain width comes back. And I was like, that was one of the biggest. Maybe it still is the longest bust out in potentially.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I had to go back and, like, research, like, what it sounded like in the 80s, and I realized I rarely, barely at all, listen to 80s fish, like the really, really early shows. So I'm not going to do every 80s show, but I am going to do, like, a sprinkling of 80s.

[A]

Sweet.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

So I'm going to try and kick it off on December 2 and do the first show show and then not stick to any anniversaries. Probably still do chronological, but I want to just kind of like, throw them out there when I feel like writing.

[C]

About it so that I don't choose some. That's so exciting. That is awesome. Brian always rides hard for 80s fish. You know, he'll always draft an 80s whipping post if he has the chance. And yeah, we. We. We love that. It. Going back to that stuff is some of my favorite stuff to do because it really just. It's like a pallet cleanser. And to listen to it with Modern Fish is just such a trip because it's like, really seeing the growth of the band from the beginning to the end. It's pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I really want that. Seven have some, like, really, really great jams and some cool sets, and a lot of them are very clearly just at a college party. And you can hear the band engaging with the community. And, like, a lot of stuff. I. I was really surprised for it. I went back and listened to a bunch of 80s when we were working on the first season of under, and there were a lot of shows that they definitely deserved, like, the cleanup and release. If nothing more than just for the archival understanding of all these jokes you hear in front of 10, 20, 30,000 people were happening in front of 11 or 12. And Trey was just thrilled to get, like, a handful of laughs and be able to tell his stories. Plus, you get deconstructed. Fluff head. Which across an entire show is such a fun thing. Thing.

[B]

Yeah, they should do that again. That would be a great thing.

[C]

That would be so killer.

[A]

So you're going to start then on 12 to 2025 and not sticking to dates, but kind of throughout next year into the following year, kind of dip into that.

[B]

Yeah, just kind of not covering every show either that's in circulation, but just kind of grabbing ones that. That sound interesting to me and generate an idea. So, yeah, I. One thing I try and impress upon people who don't like Fish is that Fish as a jam band was not inevitable, like, in the way we think of.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody sees Fish through the framing of the Grateful Deads.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

Right. But in the 80s, obviously, they were. They. They wouldn't have imagined they were that, but they also didn't set out to be that. And, like, they were in this, like, interesting artsy college ride scene where they were closer to, you know, Ween and They Might Be Giants and these other oddball bands of the 80s, instead of being a band who jams for, you know, tens of thousands of people. So I really want to approach it from that perspective of, like, Fish as underground, you know, indie artists outside of Fish. Like, can I. Like, how. How does that impression of them, the early stages hold up if I try and look at them from that perspective? So that's kind of what I'm going into it with.

[A]

Yeah. I always joke that no one was asking for a fusion of Genesis and King Crimson with the spirit of the Grateful dead in the 80s. There's nobody that. There was no record exec that was like, that is. It's going to make us a bunch of money right now. And yet they did it anyway, because going through 70s Genesis albums, going through a lot of those King Crimson records, early Eno, I feel like you hear more foundational Fish than you do listening to great 70s Grateful Dead shows, which you are very well familiar with.

[B]

Yeah. And then they're, like, pulling. I mean, I think it was maybe the. One of the Undermine seasons where they were talking about, like, they were listening to a lot of college radio and they covered, like, XBC and Lou Reed and all this. Like, you know, they could have been. You know, would they have been a chapter in our band? Could be your life. They're like, yeah, right. If things had gone just a little.

[A]

Differently, like, if they hadn't been funny on stage, like.

[C]

Yeah, they were. If they weren't dorks, you mean.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. To fit into that But a lot of those bands were dorky, too, and they were.

[C]

That's true. Yeah.

[B]

But it's just like how they got slotted in music history. Like, these bands are like this.

[C]

And Fish is like, totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Fascinating.

[B]

So that's kind of my. For the break time here, but I'm gonna be working hard to not burn myself out before getting back into it in 2.0 and back on the 25th anniversary.

[A]

I don't want to burn you out or suggest anything that would, but have. Are you in any way familiar with Trey's Summer 01 and 02 tab tours at all?

[B]

No, but I'm glad you brought that up, because I was like, what should I cover? Any solo stuff.

[A]

So I would say there's definitely, like, I don't know if you need to do everything summer. Both the summer tours from that year have. Have enough shows to kind of dip into. I know I saw one at UIC in 2002 where there's, I think, four songs over 25 minutes. And he's just. They're just kind of. They're going as a band and they're jamming as hard as they can. But there are these interesting moments where Paige joins for a song where Fishman joins in, where Mike comes on and they play a mic song. We Kapog Groove Encore. I think Jones beach, one of those years. There's enough moments where there's this kind of hint towards Fish is going to come back, and Fish is still a.

[B]

Part of our lives.

[A]

While he was clearly seeing tab as the future for it. And you can hear in both of those tours specifically enough moments to kind of hint that there. There's something worth digging into. I don't think you have to do everything, but, like, dipping in and out of a couple of those would probably be interesting. Yeah.

[B]

Just like I did. I didn't want to do every show. The tab 99 tour.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe I can do like, one of those. One Vita Blue show, like that kind of thing.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Just to kind of like, cover what were they doing in this.

[C]

Yeah, we. We did that on 40 for 40. We kind of chose during the hiatus years, like, one of the side projects. And it was really cool. It was really cool to see, especially some the. Of. Of following people like. Like Paige, like, seeing what he was doing, you know, and. And Fishmen and. Yeah, it's cool. It's good. It's a good project.

[A]

Good hinted jazz mandolin project shows, some of them, but some sick jams.

[C]

You were sick. Some of those were awesome.

[A]

He Grabbed stuff which is a couple years away.

[B]

It must have been spring 2000. I saw one of those at Fishmen in Champagne, the Canopy Club.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Was it good?

[B]

I don't remember much about it. It was fine.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It was just kind of like you were. There's. I need a jam band show. So many.

[B]

I was excited to be that close to Fishman because.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. But beyond that, I don't really have any recall for it at all.

[A]

Well, last question for you. We are coming to the end of the year here. We have been making our favorite albums list. Are there any three, five records that you are listening to that you would recommend our listener checkout as well?

[B]

Yeah, I am. Let's see, this year I'm. I'm into the big indie darlings of the year. I like Wednesday. I like Geese.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually think Geese has. It's so funny because of the Geese Goose thing, but I feel like Geese has a lot of potential for like a. Like a Fish crossover. Like. Yeah, I don't think they're a J, you feel. And I've seen it online from people that like Fish. I seem to like Geese just because they're such a weird band and they do.

[C]

They're authentic.

[B]

Yeah. They do things you don't expect. And like when you listen to and write about music for as long as I have, like, that's what really stands out is when you find a band that, oh, this song went in a totally different direction than I expected and that really. Oh, yeah. So. So I love those. But I'm sure you've probably talked about those. I heard about those. The Ryan Davis and the Roadhouse Band album. I love. Love another. Sort of.

[A]

Those are my 1, 2 as well. Those are. Those are just.

[B]

And yeah, Ryan, we always had very similar taste.

[A]

Yeah, we.

[B]

I've been really into like all the. You were probably into the Eta Forte Jeff Parker album last year.

[A]

Love that.

[B]

All the offshoots of that scene. So. SML is amazing. I finally listened to the new one last night. I'm sure it's going to be top of my list. The Oldman Johnson Wils record. I love, love. I've been able to see Jeremiah Chu a couple times this year. I don't even know if he had an album this year. But he's in sml. He's on all these projects. I am way in the tank for those guys right now in any configuration of those musicians. And they're coming through Chicago a lot and playing Constellation. Brian, if you're back, we should go Check out a Constellation show.

[A]

I would if. If I'm back is the question, you know.

[B]

Yeah. And then couple other Chicago bands. I'll plug Horse Girl. Their record this year is good. Great Tobacco City. The whole like sort of indie country revival if you like Ryan Davis. I saw Tobacco City open for them. Very similar sort of sound. And then my perennial beloved is Natural Information Society who had a big year. They put out a lot of stuff. They had an album with and Bajas the new one Perseverance Flow. The album is really good and I don't know if you've seen them play it out live yet. Any of the sort of tapes I haven't floating around but it's like that that the album is one track track. This is typically what they do. The show is pretty much just a performance of that piece and it's like twice as long and even better than the album.

[C]

So that's killer. I didn't know that. I love the album. That's awesome.

[B]

I'm seeing a week from Thursday the Chicago release show. But they're for listeners out there and for both of you there's a show, a pro shot video of them at Roulette in Brooklyn just a couple weeks ago where they performed that track and it's. It's amazing and it's all the jam band people should be into them because.

[C]

While it's yeah they're amazing.

[B]

Very stripped down minimal sort of droney jazz based music it absolutely hits the My fish pleasure centers in my brain when I go see it's one of.

[A]

The few bands they find a theme and they just string it out for a long time. It's just.

[B]

Oh man, Talk about that 7799 show is a great.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So true.

[A]

Very very cool. Well Rob, I want to thank you so much for giving us so much of your time here and diving deep. For anyone out there who is who's hung with us for the last two hours but has not read Rob's blog. Fishcrit.substack.com Keep an eye out for it. December 2nd he will be coming back with 12 to 83. I'm really excited to hear hear that because we have to compare and contrast to our first 40 for 40 episode where we talked about that and you got to listen through the distortion but man if you hear there's certain moments of magic in that in that two song set that hint at where the where the band is going to go or at least the two songs we have. So I'm excited to See what you do covering the 80s over the next couple of years before we get to 2.0. And thank you so much for hanging with us, man.

[B]

Yeah, this is great. Thank you for having me on again. And, yeah, have a time. Good, good, good. Rest of the year.

[A]

You as well. We'll talk here again soon. All right, guys, thank you once again to Rob. That was an awesome conversation. We got super deep about his site and about kind of just the ongoing nature of fish projects and what it's like to cover this band the way that we all do. I hope you guys found that illuminating. I hope you guys read his site, subscribe to it, pledge that you will pay for the site when it goes, when it, you know, in a future date. Just whatever support you can do for Rob. That would be awesome because his writing is definitely important.

[C]

Absolutely. And I love how we're like, we'll probably go for an hour max, and then typical US fashion. So great, great conversation with Rob, though. I mean, as someone who's contributed to the archive in that way, we're so, so lucky to have him and his contributions.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. And we will be back next week. Interview with Mike Ayres about his. His new book, Surrender to the Flow, Sharon in the Groove. Surrender to the Flow, Sharon in the Groove. I got the name right. There we go. And then, like I said at the top of the episode, we got the final. The second quarter, if you will. The. The end of our first set of the Mount Rushmore series, Possum Slave, Reba, you enjoy myself, all that stuff to close out 2025, plus one more draft, and then we'll cover MSG once those shows happen. So a lot of good stuff here to close out the year before we come back in 2026. Thank you guys for hanging with us, and we will see you all next week.

[C]

Thanks, everyone.

[B]

Sarus.

[A]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. And we're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions, like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song, change the meaning you take from it. Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn [e-mail].

[B]

Osiris.