Tom Hamilton — Live at Relix!

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast – Ep: Tom Hamilton — Live at Relix! (Jan 8, 2026)

Overview

This episode of the Helping Friendly Podcast features hosts Megan and Mike Greenhaus, who recap a recent Phish show at Madison Square Garden before sitting down with musician Tom Hamilton (Joe Russo’s Almost Dead, Ghost Light, Brothers Past) at Relix Studios. The conversation covers Tom’s forthcoming solo album, musical influences, evolution as a songwriter, and a deep dive into his process, collaboration, and a bit of Phish talk. There's also a retrospective on the influential “goodbye” album by Brothers Past.

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Phish Recap: MSG Show Highlights

Classic Setlist, Weather, and Vibes

• [01:36] Mike arrives at MSG just as "Buried Alive" opens the show:

  “Luckily I made it there, then sat on the tarmac for a bit, but got in just as Buried Alive was getting going. So. Perfect timing.” (Mike, 01:59)

• Both hosts agree the first set leaned heavily on early-era Phish classics.

• “Buried Alive” opener feels like a “signpost that it's going to be a good show.” (Mike, 02:30)

• Acoustic “Sleep,” not played since 2019, was a highlight—especially seeing Trey go unplugged.

  • "It was not only a really rare thing to see Trey play acoustic guitar… a nice throwback to another famed Phish run." (Mike, 02:25)

• “Wolfman’s Brother” jam praised for its hypnotic improv:

  • “Settled in this really nice improv… kind of a hint of what's going to come in the second set.” (Megan, 03:49)

Set Two: The Jam Conversation

• Theme from the Bottom → Simple sequence stands out for both hosts:
  • “The sequence that was kind of based around that really expansive Theme from the Bottom that went into Simple, that was the highlight of the show for me.” (Mike, 04:22)
  • "I think it was the longest 'Theme from the Bottom' ever… went to very unexpected places." (Mike, 04:22)
  • “Really hypnotic, super groove based. None of the big, like, flashy type-2 stuff, but really awesome groove-based jamming. They sounded like one organism.” (Megan, 05:01)
  • “If you can get a really good jam on that first night, you’re in for a treat… you want them to kind of stretch their legs a little bit.” (Megan, 06:05)

Notable quotes:

• "Sitting on a tarmac for 45 minutes made it worth it." (Mike, 05:00)
• "If they don't play one good jam, then you're a little worried." (Megan, 06:18)

Personal Takes and Setlist Philosophy

• Megan confesses she’s lukewarm on “Roggae”:
  • "I just don't love it. I think the jam gets really pretty, but I don't love the lyrics… kind of feels a little corny to me." (Megan, 06:36)
• Mike counters:
  • "I like that song for a lot of reasons… showcases them as all lead vocalists… there's so many lights that, like, the lyrics that touch on that felt very of the moment." (Mike, 06:45)

Anticipation for Next Shows

• Hosts speculate if Trey’s acoustic guitar appearance might continue.
• “Whenever they have these longer runs, anything… that feels like the shows are unified… those are always really good building blocks to what ultimately will culminate with New Year’s Eve.” (Mike, 08:17)

A Look Back and Forward

• Discussion of prior MSG shows, notably the legendary 12/29/24 (39-minute “Ruby Waves,” epic “Ghost,” etc).
• “1229's been hotter than 1230 the last few years… I'm interested to see this year who wins out. But we're all winners here at Phish, always, of course.” (Megan, 09:27)

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Tom Hamilton Interview: New Album, Influences, and Process

Album Details and Vinyl Release

• [10:32] Tom joins to discuss his album, dropping January 23rd, with vinyl on Relix Records.
  • “Relix is putting out the vinyl, the lovely Relix. Thank you, Mike.” (Tom, 10:49)

On Physical Media & Nostalgia

• Tom and hosts reminisce on tangible music experiences – vinyl, newspapers, and the tactile nature of art:
  • “I have recently, within the last few months, been buying newspapers again… just because I like doing crossword puzzles.” (Tom, 11:28)
  • “As we get older, we all just crave those things that were artifacts from when we were younger.” (Megan, 11:48)

Album Influences and Creative Palette

• Tom cites Nick Cave, “a lot of crooners,” and the dark, literary band Protomartyr as influences:
  • “[Protomartyr] are like if the Hold Steady were mean people… like an evil Hold Steady with a goatee… the music is very dark and heavy… the lyricist is writing some real, real shit there… it’s literature.” (Tom, 12:55-13:54)
• Tom emphasizes authenticity and sincerity in new rock bands like Geese:
  • “People are starting to say things like, is this the next Nirvana moment? … it’s supposed to be confrontational, make you feel and think… That’s where I always come from when I’m making records.” (Tom, 14:13)

On Production: Collaboration and Perspective

• Producer Alex Farrar (Waxahatchee, Wednesday, MJ Lenderman) assisted with the album, bringing a raw, punk rock ethos:
  • “A very similar vibe, I would say, [as] Steve Albini… really big on trimming the fat… we went in there with a scalpel and reshaped some of the tunes.” (Tom, 17:26)
• Tom notes the importance of outside perspective when recording without a full band, referencing his own tendency to over-edit.

Involvement of War on Drugs, Kurt Vile & Philadelphia Connections

• Recording with bassist from War on Drugs and drummer Kevin (last name forgotten).
• Flashback to recording Kurt Vile’s first demo in 2001:
  • “Kurt's a brilliant guy. But, yeah… it was very cool to have just, you know, somebody associated with Philadelphia, that far away from home.” (Tom, 19:04)

Songwriting Journey & Creative Process

• After Ghost Light dissolved and his father became ill, Tom opted to approach creativity without fear or forced decisions:
  • “I just didn't want to make any decisions based on fear… figured out what the creativity was gonna lead me to instead of being afraid.” (Tom, 22:14)
• Daily writing sessions with lifelong friend Pete Tramo – eight months of writing, first three mostly false starts:
  • “The first twenty songs you write, you're like, okay, I've already said that… it's just straight up another song that already exists… we have this intimacy where it's such a safe place to be able to just say, oh yeah, that's terrible.” (Tom, 24:42-25:54)
• “Kissing With Our Eyes Closed” became the album’s North Star; everything else built around it:
  • “That was the one we're like, okay, this is our North Star… this is what is going to keep everything else in context.” (Tom, 27:12)

Live Performance & Band Dynamics

• For the first time ever, Tom played a tour with the same setlist each night:
  • “I did a tour where I played the same set… I don’t think I had the perspective to see what you saw.” (Tom, 28:21)
• The band’s core contributors (especially bassist Taylor Shell, keyboardist Tom McKee) recorded most tracks live after Tom and Pete finished writing:
  • “Almost everything on the record was tracked live. Four of us, plus Peter on an extra guitar.” (Tom, 30:01)

Brothers Past “Goodbye” Album – 20th Anniversary Retrospective

• The band wanted the 2005 album “goodbye” to assert their voice as songwriters in a jam scene driven by search for originality:
  • “If you sounded like Phish, you were done… everyone had their own identity… we wanted to make our statement… as songwriters first and foremost.” (Tom, 33:21)
• Recorded with John Altschul, engineer of Phish's "Rift" and “Picture of Nectar”; John remains a key mentor and mixer for Tom to this day.
• Reunion for “goodbye” anniversary was a challenge logistically and emotionally, but ultimately fulfilling:
  • “It was very cool to be able to play those songs again with those guys... Parnell is such a unique, singular bass player.” (Tom, 37:26)
  • “This music was made by young, drug-addled 20-year-olds… there is a lot of very complicated shit going on in the drums that any practical human probably wouldn’t have done.” (Tom, 38:09)
  • On the reunion show: “When we counted off that first song and the place just exploded… it was like watching Nirvana play Smells Like Teen Spirit… it was fucking great.” (Tom, 38:57)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Phish jams:
  "If you can get a really good jam on that first night, you’re in for a treat." – Megan, [06:05]

• On musical honesty:
  "Trying to say something unique unto myself…sincerity in the whole thing." – Tom, [15:21]

• On creative partnership:
  “We have this intimacy where it’s such a safe place to be able to just say, oh yeah, that’s… terrible.” – Tom, [25:54]

• On the Brothers Past reunion:
  “When we counted off that first song and the place just exploded… it was fucking great.” – Tom, [38:57]

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Key Segments / Timestamps

• Phish show recap and analysis: [01:31] – [10:22]
• Tom Hamilton joins, album origins and influences: [10:32] – [17:25]
• Recording process & collaboration with producer: [17:25] – [21:18]
• Songwriting and creative philosophy: [21:37] – [27:52]
• Live performances, touring band, inner workings: [27:52] – [31:00]
• Brothers Past 'goodbye' album & reunion: [31:10] – [39:00]

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Warm, conversational, fan-driven analysis of Phish and jam bands.
• Tom is candid, self-deprecating, and thoughtful about his creative process.
• Hosts (Megan, Mike) are enthusiastic, slightly irreverent, and well-prepared, balancing deep fan knowledge with friendly banter.
• The interview blends nostalgia, practical insights for musicians, and real talk about creative challenges.

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Final Thoughts

This episode seamlessly blends fan-centric Phish show analysis with a deep, personal artist interview. Tom Hamilton’s openness about his artistic journey, balanced with technical and emotional insights, makes the conversation both instructive and inspiring for listeners—whether they're musicians, seasoned jam-band fans, or newcomers to Tom’s work.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Osiris.

[C]

Welcome to the Helping Friendly podcast. I'm Megan. I'm here with Mike Greenhouse and we are recording from Relic Studio Studios. We're actually. Am I allowed to say that we're in Peach Piro's office?

[D]

Yes, this is. Which is more Rock and Roll hall of Fame than the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. You know, it really is.

[C]

It's packed with so much. There's so many amazing pictures and bobbleheads in here. It's just, it's an absolute vibe. And I'm really glad that Mike agreed to sit down with me because you were at last night's fish show, right?

[D]

I was, yes. I, I mean, this year I'm lucky enough to do the. The first two nights, so I made it in for less, fortunately.

[B]

Last night.

[C]

Yeah, it was a bit of a question. There's been some weather in New York and you were visiting family down south.

[D]

Exactly, I was visiting family, but luckily I made, you know, I made it there, then sat in the tarmac for a bit, but got in just as Buried Alive was getting going. So. Perfect timing. It was perfect timing.

[C]

And that's like the perfect entrance song. I loved the old school start to the show last night.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I think with the exception of a few songs off the newest release and everything's right, like most of the songs were from the, you know, the early years of the band, you know, just real classics.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

The.

[C]

The Buried Alive bag opener is just a classic. What were your highlights from the first set?

[D]

Well, as you mentioned, the Buried Alive, which not only, you know, I always feel like that's a nice signpost that it's gonna be a good show. And on top of that, you know, New York was buried of snow just a couple days ago. So it felt like a nice, like A nice reference point there. I always like a good rogue kind of nice little mellow vibe there. But as you said, the whole show felt not only like a classic, you know, 90s fish show, but like it's something about. It felt very Madison Square Garden, you know, kind of easing into the four day run in the nine sets. And you know, the biggest surprise, from my perspective at least, was that they did sleep, which they hadn't done, I checked, since 2019. And they did acoustic, which was not only a really a rare thing to see Trey play acoustic guitar during a fish show, but when I saw them do that song in 1998 on 1228. 1998, he actually also did an acoustic. So it was kind of a nice throwback to another famed fish run, you know.

[C]

That's awesome. I just drafted the 122998 show in our holiday shows draft for my 1228 selection. Because that show rules.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And yes, it has the acoustic sleep. Maybe that's what Trey was thinking about. He probably watched the POD last week.

[D]

And we're talking about.

[C]

Yeah, but I love when Trey plays acoustic. It's one of my all time favorite things and he should do it more. I've been trying to get them to bring that back for my friend. My friend intro. Like that would be amazing. Sick, right? But yeah, I thought the sleep was beautiful. I really love the Wolfmans. I thought that they settled in this really nice improv. It's really hypnotic. Kind of a hint of what's going to come in the second set, which we'll talk about. Really great little 15 minute stretch out. I thought that was really nice.

[D]

Totally. Yeah.

[C]

Nice first set. I think the flow of the show was a little hit or miss for me. But the second set had some great stuff.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, the second set, the sequence that was kind of based around that really expansive theme from the bottom that went into Simple. That was the highlight of the show for me. I thought there's some really deep improvisation. And I think it was the longest through from the bottom ever. And definitely it was like very unexpected places it went to. And then going back into simple was great. And the gadajibu before that and then the beginning of s1mple prior to that. That whole sequence was amazing. Definitely worth a. Definitely worth a re. Listen. And both the price of admission and sitting in a tarmac for 45 minutes.

[C]

Made it worth it.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, I was a little worried about the second set when I heard the Oblivion and the Disease. So sounded like they were kind of searching and never really landing. And then the simple has a really nice little peak to it. And then the theme though, just really takes off. I think the 24 minute jam is really hypnotic, super groove based. None of the big like flashy type 2 stuff, but really awesome groove based jamming. They sounded like one organism. Some really pretty stuff in there that I'm excited to listen to. Trey was on the effects. It sounded like they had almost like a reverb loop going on. Really cool. I love that jam. I listened to it again this morning and I thought it was awesome.

[D]

Yeah. And the fact that they could lock into something like that, you know, just a few songs into, you know, an extended run after being off for a few months, at least as a band of four, you know, they've all been busy with other projects. You know, just a good sign for what's about to come. And at the same time, I really enjoyed the fact that they took a song that is known for being a beautiful song and known for, you know, for some really, you know, gentle moments to this really experimental area.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think if you can get a really good jam on that first night, you're in for a treat. Like, you know things are going to be good and that's kind of what you want. You want them to kind of like stretch their legs a little bit, get comfortable and play at least one good jam.

[B]

Totally, yeah.

[C]

If they don't play one good jam, then you're a little worried. But yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was a great first show. It also is one of those shows where it was awesome. But I was like, it's okay that I missed it, so I'm ready. Cause I come in tonight so selfishly. I'm always fine. And I'm fine if they play Rogue when I'm not in the room either. Because I have an unpopular opinion about Rogue.

[D]

Uh oh. What's that opinion?

[C]

I just don't love it. I think that the jam gets really pretty, but I don't love the lyrics. I think they're interesting. Cheesy.

[D]

Yeah, I'll debate you on that one. I feel like, you know, I like that song for a lot of reasons. I love the grooves of it. It's on Story of the Ghost, which I think, you know, when it first came out wasn't necessarily my favorite Fish record. But as I've listened to it, I think it's aged really well and it's got a really cool studio approach to it. And I think that the songs sound really full and complete. In their studio versions. And I like the fact that it showcases them as all lead vocalists in that intro section. And then they each kind of have their vocal harmonies. And you know, especially, you know, this time of year, there's a lot of lights going on for the holidays and stuff in New York. It's. There's so many lights that, you know, like the lyrics that touch on that. It felt very of the moment, I would say. But I could also see how, you know, maybe it's not everyone's favorite yearbook quote.

[C]

Exactly. I just think it has a little bit of like a corniness to it that I will say. I do think the music is really balanced to that and pulls away from that because it really does get beautiful after. But yeah, it's just never my favorite. It kind of feels a little corny to me, but I know that I'm in the minority for that. And I'm all about fish being a place where dudes can get into their feelings. So I'm here for romance, if that's what it does.

[D]

Amen to that.

[C]

Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you have anything you want to hear tonight? What are you hoping for tonight?

[D]

You know, I. I feel like, you know, especially when they're easing into a multi night run at the same venue, I feel like everything is on the table.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And at the same time, like, you know, everything is off the table too because, you know, you know, they have so many. They have so many sets they could slot things to. And I'm sure some of them will fit into the gag, whatever that is to be. I mean, I'm interested to see if, you know, as I mentioned before, Trey played acoustic guitar on sleep. That guitar was out on stage the first set. If that's something that's going to be kind of a recurring theme throughout the run. Like they'll do a song or two acoustic each each night. Or if it was just special for them that one bit. And whenever they have these longer runs, anything that they do that kind of like it feels like the shows are unified. Whether it is like an instrument like that or some sort of stage prop, those are always really good kind of building blocks to what ultimately will culminate with New Year's Eve.

[C]

Yeah, I love that idea. The kind of thematic threads. I hope the thematic thread is big jams. I think about last year. 12, 29, 24. Unbelievable show. Yeah, it was my longest jam I've ever been in the room for, besides a secret set with the ruby waves that was like 39 minutes long. And it was absolutely Epic. And the whole show was fantastic with that, like, really great first set.

[B]

Ghost.

[C]

There's like a Prince Caspian that jammed really great. Moma. Just some good stuff that happened in that show. And 1229's been hotter than 1230 the last few years. So I feel like this is the breaking point. Like the last three years, 1229 has been better. So I'm interested to see this year who wins out. But we're all winners here at FISH always, of course. But I'm really excited for tonight and I agree. It's kind of like you could get anything. I just hope we get a big monster jam in that second set.

[D]

Yeah. And yesterday, you know, New year, or the way it falls this year with 1228 being a Sunday. Like, there's definitely a never miss a Sunday night vibe to that show. So maybe the 29th will be, you know, the new 30th or the new 31st or whatever. However you want to spin it.

[C]

Exactly. Well, I'm excited and I'm really glad we got to chat about it. And we have Tom Hamilton here in the Relics office. So we're going to bring him in and chat with him about his new record and maybe we can get him to talk a little bit about fish.

[D]

I would like to hear that.

[C]

Yeah, me too. Tom Hamilton, thank you so much for joining HF pod.

[B]

My absolute pleasure.

[C]

I'm so excited that we get to talk to you today. And most, Mike and I really wanted to sit down and talk to you about your new album.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Yeah, we have heard a few tracks. I haven't heard enough, but we are really excited because it's coming out the.

[B]

End of the month.

[C]

Right.

[B]

January 23rd, I believe, is the day. So very soon, very soon, Relics is putting out the vinyl, the lovely Relics. Thank you, Mike.

[D]

You know, I'm glad the vinyl records are back. And that kind of has brought Relics records in a way. Back, you know, back in the day, you know, was. Was a thing, you know, Robert Hunter was on it and a lot of the classics.

[B]

It's very cool to see that, you know, people are starting to care again about the quality of what they get.

[D]

And we just gotta get print media back, you know.

[C]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Is next.

[D]

I promise.

[B]

I promise that's next.

[D]

You heard her hear from Tom.

[B]

I will say this. I have recently, within the last few months, I've been buying newspapers again.

[D]

I love it.

[B]

Well, just because I like doing crossword puzzles, you know, and it's like, man, I used to do those all the time when I was younger. It was a great thing to help, you know, just help your vocabulary, keep your brain going. And. Yeah, I recently started buying newspapers again. I was like, man, how retro this is.

[C]

I love that. I think as we get older, we all just crave those things that were artifacts from when we were younger. And also like the archival ness of having, you know, an actual physical media in front of you.

[B]

Yeah, man. Something tangible, you know, tactile. And I will say it was surprising. The last time I bought a newspaper, it was probably 50 cents. It was three bucks.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For a newspaper.

[C]

Oh, holy.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

The times there are changing.

[D]

Get off my lawn.

[C]

Well, we want to hear about the influences. I was listening to the singles that are out last night, and I was just thinking. I want to know what Tom was listening to and thinking about when you were writing this album.

[B]

Okay. Wow. What was I listening to? You know, during, during COVID I discovered the vast catalog that is Nick Cave, which I really loved. Like, I kind of got into, like, a lot of crooners. There's a band called Protomar. Oh, yeah.

[C]

I don't know them.

[D]

Yeah, so I bought a Root years ago.

[B]

Yeah, they're like, if the Hold Steady were mean people. It's like really kind of what it sounds like. It's like an evil hold steady. Like if the Hold Steady had a goatee, just like that guy version of it. But. Yeah, but just like the music, the music is very dark and heavy as. As all heck. And the, the lyricist and the singer. It's, you know, it's. It's literature. You know, he's, he's. He is writing some real, real shit there and, and, you know, and he croons. He's got that baritone. And it's, it's. It's great. You know, I, I really. I was super into. Into that whole thing and like, finding just a new palette to. To paint with, you know? Yeah, so, yeah, it was a lot. Listen lot of. A lot of that type of stuff. I don't know.

[C]

Well, the singing sounds great on the album, I think. You know, whenever I think of you, I of course, think of you and your guitar, but your voice, too, is amazing. And it sounds great on the album. Like, it's such a rock and roll sound. Sounds really great.

[B]

Thank you. You know, I was, I was just talking with somebody about this new Geese record.

[C]

Love it.

[B]

You know, and what, you know, how people are starting to say things like, you know, is this, is this the. The next Nirvana moment?

[D]

Right.

[B]

The thing that kind of resets rock and roll a little bit and makes pop culture. Remember that? Rock and roll is a yes.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's, it's, it's a reaction and, you know, it's supposed to be confrontational, and it's supposed to make you feel and think and, and see things in our culture and lives that, you know, we maybe weren't looking at, you know, and. Yeah, I, I, that, That's like, where I always come from when I'm making records, is trying to say something unique unto myself. And, you know, it's cool to see a. A band like, Like Geese, where it's like, these guys are young and they're, they made art.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not a. That is not a record where anyone that was making it was like, well, what's popular? Should I just do.

[D]

No, totally.

[C]

It's so authentic.

[B]

Yeah, man. And, you know, so anyway, I don't know how I even got there, but I guess, you know, just sincerity in the whole thing.

[D]

I was actually, you know, speaking of that. I know that they're not from the same scene directly, but there's a lot of young bands coming out of North Carolina that are kind of contemporaries of what Geese are doing here in New York. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit about some of the people who helped you in the studio on this and the production choices, which plays into that world very much for sure, and how you discovered that, which also, I think, speaks to kind of some of this more real raw songwriter sensibility that is throughout this record.

[B]

Absolutely. You know, I was probably halfway finished making this thing, and my manager just kind of floated the idea of. Of working with. Working with another producer to kind of get some perspective on what's been. What's going on, you know? And this guy, Alex Farrer, who is a producer and studio. He owns a studio in Asheville, North Carolina, and he did, like, the Waxahachie records. He did like Wednesday. He did M.J. linderman, like, all the stuff that right now is very much in vogue. And. Yeah, I was just like, well, you know, of course I'm game to.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Get any kind of perspective on. On what's going on. You know, like, the thing I realized, making record, making records without a band, you know, that's like your, you know, like, when it's, when you're. When it's all on you, it's really easy to lose perspective.

[D]

Totally.

[C]

Definitely.

[B]

And I'm a big fan of over editing. It's like, if anything is remotely derivative, it's like, all right, we just got to get that out. And that gets hard to do when it's by yourself. So I was very excited to go and talk to this guy Alex and work with him and, and it was great, man. I did 10 days down there. I just like, lived. There was like an apartment that was attached to the studio.

[C]

Oh, that's awesome.

[B]

And yeah, I just went down and lived in this place for 10 days. And we like it did exactly what we needed it to do. You know, there were certain things where, you know, his punk rock ethos, which I think is my favorite kind of producer, you know, like a guy like, like Steve Albini, like a very similar vibe, I would say Alex has to Albini, where it's, you know, it's just such a no approach and, and. And really big on like trimming the fat, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, coming from the jam scene, it can be easy to, yeah. Leave on some of that gristle. But, but, you know, it was cool, man. We, you know, we went in there with. With a scalpel and, and reshaped some of the tunes and. And you know, it's. I think the, The. The difference between something that's just pedestrian and something that's more. A little more remarkable. It's only the last, you know, 4 or 5%, you know. Yeah, but that's percentage, you know. And yeah, Alex was. Was really a big part in helping get this thing over the finish line. You know, it was like great perspective, great ideas and. And, you know, he had. He had a couple of guys come in and record with us down there. The bass player from the War on Drugs, Dave, and this drummer guy, Kevin. I can't remember his last name. But anyway, you know, they're just great people.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

That like, have a great sense sensibility of art.

[D]

That's a full circle moment for you too, to have a member of War on Drugs because you recorded like their predecessor bands early in your career and before they even had a career, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Kurt Viles first demo, we made it together in a house in Westchester, Pennsylvania back in 2001.

[C]

I think I didn't know that. That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like through a mutual friend, you know, somebody. He was looking to make a record and I had like a digital 8 track and. And yeah, man. And we spent. We spent like two months together making this thing and it was, it was really cool. And I, you know, I think some of that stuff is still some of its best material, you know. Yeah. Kurt's a Brilliant guy. But, yeah, it was. It was. It was very cool to have just, you know, somebody associated with Philadelphia, you know, that far away from home, you know, and just. Yeah, making cool choices together. It's, you know, that's like the whole thing, I think it's just, you know, the intention of it all and, you know, it's not just making a record just to make something, you know, it's. It's like the intention with everybody that I collaborated with along the way. Everyone was invested in it, you know, like, at no point was it. Did it ever feel like. And not saying people weren't compensated, you know, of course they were, but, you know, I've made a bunch of records and, yeah, there's always at least a few people that are kind of, you know, it's just a job to them, and that's fine because it can just be a job to people, you know, but making this record, man, you know, every person that was a part of it and that. That collaborated in any way, I really felt, you know, like, love and support and belief in the art, you know, and. Yeah, what else can you. What else can you ask for?

[C]

Yeah, and I feel like it's a nice. Because I know you record a lot in your studio in Philadelphia to get kind of out of your own space. And we talk a lot about this with writing that, like, when you see your stuff so many times, it's hard to have perspective. Perspective on it. So it's great to bring someone else in and get that perspective and get away from home.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, it's, you know, just being in a different space is just inspired, you know. So, yeah, it was. It was. It was very cool. And, you know, and just to see behind the curtain, to see how a guy that's making really great records, how he works and. And, you know, just. It was a great learning experience.

[D]

You know, you mentioned before that a lot of this record, at least initially, was done just you. It wasn't with a band. And, you know, before we started taping today, we were talking a little bit about how this spring will be the 20th anniversary of American Babies, which was like your debut solo project. And I know a lot of that early material you did all by yourself. You recorded the piano parts and all that jazz, and of course, you know, live had all sorts of friends fleshing it out. But did you go into this process knowing that you wanted to kind of make it more like, you know, you and a producer or you and, you know, someone else in the studio versus, like, you Know the live touring band that you already had?

[B]

Yeah, you know. Yes. You know, in. I guess it was. What year is this? 25. So in 23 for a few more days, at least. Yeah, I think it was at the beginning of 23 or the end of 22 or something like that, I think, you know, I had that band Ghost Light, and. And, you know, that. That fell apart in a quick manner, and my dad got sick, like, right at the same time, and I didn't know. Yeah, I just didn't know what to do in. In either capacity. Right. You know, and I. And I just. I didn't want to make any decisions based on fear, you know, like, with the Ghost Light thing, rush into something right out of that, whether that was, like, trying to plug the hole and keep the band going and running on fumes or, like, rush into a new project or a new band or, you know, whatever. And then, you know, and the stuff with, like, my family, with my dad, it was like, you know, normally when shit's not great, you know, I would just kind of book a tour and, you know, and avoid life or whatever. So, you know, I. I just. I just wanted to figure out what the creativity was gonna lead me to instead of. Instead of being afraid. And so, you know, I mean, I talked to, like, my manager, my agent, and, you know, Taylor from Ghost Light and Turquoise. You know, we. We were definitely gonna keep working together, you know, like, regardless of what was going on. And, you know, so, yeah, I just kind of took some time and. And just talked about it, and kind of my whole team was like, well, let's put out a record under your name. And instead of trying to, like, you know, build another band and all that stuff, and, you know. Yeah, I was just. I was just stoked to. To approach it in a more nonchalant and relaxed way where, you know, the art was the most important thing. So I have a writing partner, this guy. His name's Pete Tramo. And, you know, we. Pardon me. He's been my buddy for ever. We grew up together. And so, you know, we. We just went to the studio every day for eight months, basically, and. Wow.

[C]

It's a long time.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, it. The first three months are us writing crap.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It'S that muscle. It atrophies after a while, you know.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, taking time off to. When you're on the road all the time and all that, you know, it's like, I'm not writing when I'm as busy on the road as I was, so so it's like, okay, man, we gotta get back into this thing, and you gotta get the boulder moving. And, you know, so the first. Yeah, man, the first 20 songs, you're right. You're like, okay, I've already said that. Or we've already written something that sounds like it, or it's just straight up another song that already exists. Dude, I wrote the best tune last night. And you're like, yeah, man, that's because, you know, interpol wrote that 20 years ago. You. You can. You know, you should flush that down the toilet, you know, And. And that. That, you know, we have. There's an intimacy there, which is really interesting to have, where it's such a safe place to be able to just say, like, oh, yeah, that's. That's. That's terrible. Yeah, that's a. That sucks. This is a bad song.

[D]

Or.

[B]

Or, you know, or you're. We're ripping off somebody else or whatever. The just truth of the matter is because at the end of the day, you know, we're not afraid of hurting each other's feelings. That's not the. The thing here. The thing is we're trying to make the best art that is representative of. Of where we are and who we are and. And all that stuff. So, yeah, you know, the first, like, two or three months, we're just really banging our heads against the wall. And then, you know, we started in February, and by, like, June, we. We started to hit on. On some. Some songs that were good, you know, and then, you know, and then from there, you know, the floodgates kind of opened. And, you know, when. When you get one. When you get one song that feels like that's it, you know, like, that's a. That's. That's what we're looking for, you know, that becomes your North Star. And then it's like, okay, now everything else we have. How does it fit in relation to this tune? You know? Does it. Does. Is it as good? Is it. You know, does it complement it stylistically and, you know, just all those things and you're building around, you know, this one. This one song, you know, so do.

[C]

You feel like there's a song like that on the album that is kind of the centerpiece for sure.

[B]

Kissing With Our Eyes Closed. It was.

[C]

I love that song.

[B]

That was the. That was the. The. That was the one we, you know, we. That's. We.

[D]

That.

[B]

We dropped that thing in 24 hours.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

You know, pretty much front to back written and. And that. Yeah, that was the one we're like, okay, this is our. Our North Star. You know, everything that we do has to be, you know, in relation to this. This is what, you know, is going to keep everything else in context. And. And yeah, that's. That's kind of what the whole. How the whole album came. Came about. It's like, okay, you know, with the darker, heavier things in relation to that and the, you know, lighter things in relation to that. Yeah, it was cool.

[C]

Well, the songs are playing really well live. I got to see you at the music hall in Williamsburg. It was incredible show. Your band has a really great vibe, and I felt like you did a really great job crafting the show around the songs of the album. They play really well together as a narrative piece. Is it feel like that when you're playing it, or is it some. Have you been changing around the order of your set?

[B]

Well, you know, I was actually telling Mike this before, like, that tour that we just did, that was the first time ever that I did a tour where I played the same set. Wow.

[C]

Yeah, I guess that's definitely not where you've come from.

[B]

No, ever. So it was. It was interesting experiencing that. You know, I don't think I had the perspective, though, to see what you saw.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. It must be so hard.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. There. There's. It. I don't. I still don't know how to put my own work into context like that. I. I just, you know, like, as far as it being good or bad in that way.

[C]

Right. How it comes off to the audience.

[B]

Yeah, I just have no idea. I have no idea.

[C]

That's not your job anyway, right?

[B]

Yes, for sure. Yeah. I have so much anxiety about so many other things.

[C]

That's, you know, you're busy doing other things. You can't worry about it.

[B]

But I don't have the bandwidth to also figure that side of it.

[C]

And you're touring for a few more months with the album, right? With the band?

[B]

Absolutely. We start January 21st, and we're basically just going to be out for the whole year surrounding the album.

[C]

Great.

[B]

But I do want to say that the band that I have, especially the bass player Taylor Shell and the keyboard player Tom McKee, they were very important parts in making this record and recording the record. I mean, basically, Peter and I would write, we would get a batch of songs together that we felt were, you know, worthy, and then we bring in the band into our studio and, you know, almost everything on the record was tracked live.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

You know, we would be the four. Four of us, plus Peter on an extra guitar. And so, you know, and. And. And that's, you know, that's what was captured. So, you know, I just. I. I didn't want to not mention that those guys, you know, it's like, by not having a band earlier when I said that, what I meant by that was, you know, when you have a band, you're able to. You're not carrying everything.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

More input.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Like everyone. Everyone's there all the time. You know, when you have a band, it's like, you know, you're in the studio, the whole band's in the studio, you're whatever. But making this record, you know, it was. A lot of the legwork is done by Pete and I on our own. And then those guys come in and.

[D]

They flush it out.

[B]

Yeah. And we get it to where it's got to go and get it recorded, you know, which is very important, too. So. Yeah, I don't mean that I didn't have a band in that way.

[C]

Yeah, no, we totally get that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, this has been great. Tom and everybody. You should go out and catch one of Tom's solo shows, because they're killer.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

I had an encore question, though. You know, with you mentioned Tom McKee, and right before the holidays, you did a celebration of the brothers past album that came out in 2005, these feelings, called Goodbye. Still one of my favorite albums that come out of the extended jam band scene, you know, and your producer or your producer partner has a fish connection. You know, he worked many years in Streams, and I think he's back. He's back now.

[B]

Good old John Altschul.

[D]

One, for people who aren't familiar with that record, can you kind of give us a little backstory of, you know, where it was recorded and kind of where the band was at that point? And two, you know, what was it like revisiting this material years later? I mean, you know, I know you've played with Tom and Clay in different contexts since then, but it's been a long time since we've had anything like, close to a Brothers Past reunion.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, so that record. We made that album in 2004, you know, Brother's Past was. We were on our way up. You know, we were. We were doing all the things you're supposed to do. You know, we were touring a lot or, you know, we're doing the festivals and all that stuff. And, you know, we were like one of, like, the hot young bands. And, you know, I. Anyone who's heard me Talk on, on any of these kinds of podcasts, you know, I always talk about how important songwriting is to me in our scene and, and making sure to emphasize that, you know, the things that make great jam bands is not just that you can jam, it's that you also write great songs. You know, it's what. That's why the Grateful Death's the Grateful Dead and I've always been this way. So, you know, go back 20 years to this. You know, it's called Goodbye. And, you know, we were. We wanted to make a record that was a statement, you know, at the time. It was, it was an interesting time in, in the scene. You know, it was so different back then because the, the mo back then felt like you would be. The coolest thing you can do is to not sound like anyone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like if you sounded like Fish, you were done. You might as well not even book a show, you know, or, you know, no one listened to the Dead anymore. You know, they were. The Dead were completely out of vogue by then. And like, the electronic music thing was real heavy and, and coming in hot, you know, like the umphrey. You know, we had umphreys with the metal Prague going on and the biscuits with their, like, you know, orchestral techno music. Everyone was doing crazy and. And everybody had their lane. You know, the, you know, the New Deal's doing House, you know, Lake Trout's got the drum and bass thing going. You know, everybody had had their own identity there. It wasn't, it wasn't a buffet, you know, where it was just like, well, you got to have a little bit of everything. It's like, no, no. The thing that made everybody, you know, great was that they had their own lane and their own statement and their own identity as musicians. So we wanted to make our statement of who we were in all of that and who we felt we were and all that were songwriters, you know, first and foremost. Yeah, we felt that was the thing that we were really good at. And so, yeah, man, we made this record and we were making it in Philadelphia and it kind of wasn't happening, wasn't doing what we wanted it to do. And our manager at the time introduced us to a guy named John Altschuler, who, John, at the time, he was the engineer on Rift and Picture of Nectar. He was the engineer on Mayer's Room for Squares. He did like Foo Fighters DVDs and fucking. I mean, this guy's done so much incredible shit. And he took a group of, you know, 25 year old dudes who didn't know their asses from a hole in the ground and taught us how to make a record that. That. That had intention, you know, and. And really meant something. And, you know, and John's been my. My mentor as a. As, you know, a studio engineer and a producer and songwriter ever since. You know, I still. I make sure he works on every record I make. You know, he mixed, he mixed. I'm a vampire, you know. Yeah. John is a. He's a brilliant man. And it's. I'm just. I'm so happy that we're still. All these years later, you know, still making records together. It all started with this brother's past album, you know, but anyway, to not take the eye off the ball there. It's been 20 years since we made that album. And we, you know, a couple years ago we had a couple talks about, you know, hey, the 20th anniversary is coming up. We should do something. But, you know, that's not an easy thing for four guys that don't all hang out anymore. You know, it's. It wasn't. We couldn't really come to a consensus of what to do. Our drummer is kind of missing. You know, life is taking him wherever it's taken him. So that was kind of a hiccup as well. And when it came to. I wanted to put on this concert, this Home for the Holidays event. I wanted something that was Philadelphia centric, that was, you know, celebrating our scene and, And. And, you know, we were coming up with a bunch of different ideas of things to do for like. Like a headlining set that would be, you know, special. And they were cool. I mean, yeah, with a lot of really sick ideas. But I just, you know, I remembered, I was like, oh, man, we. We never got to do anything for this album. Maybe that could be a. A cool thing to do. And so, you know, I posed it to Tom and Clay and. And they were reluctant, but, you know, they're like, all right, well, you know, let's see if Joe and. And Nick Bachrath, let's see if they would say yes to it. And fortunately, they did.

[D]

And.

[B]

And, yeah, that was. That was. That. I mean, it was cool, man. It was. It was very cool to be able to play those songs again with. With those guys, you know, I mean, I. I play. I play Brothers Past stuff in my sets stuff still. But to do it with Clay, you know, I mean, Parnell is such a unique, singular bass player, you know, it was. It was great. And. And it was interesting playing it with. Playing that material with Joe, you know who, you know, he's not deep seeped in the electronic. Yeah, yeah, so it was cool, you know, it was cool to see him practice. You know, it's like Joe like put in the work, man, and you know, because it's so fun.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean the, this, this music was, was made by young drug addled 20 year olds, you know, so it's like you there, especially in the drums, it's like, man, there is, there is a lot of very complicated going on in there that like any practical human probably wouldn't have done time. You know, when you're 24, 25, it's like, you know, you just want to do, you know, you have all this, this energy to do something cool and different and complicated. And so yeah, it was cool seeing, you know, Joe take it seriously and, and practice a lot and do the thing and man, when we counted off that first song and the place just exploded like it was like, you know, watching Nirvana play Smells Like King Spirit, you know, it was great, man. It was fucking great.

[C]

It's fantastic. All right, well, thanks again both of you for coming on HFPod.

[B]

Yeah, HFPop.

[C]

Really appreciate it and I'm excited for your album to drop.

[B]

I'm excited to be, to be here and I appreciate you guys supporting me.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. All right, thanks everyone.

[D]

Sam.

[B]

Osiris.

[C]

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[E]

Is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustics, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song become. Change the meaning you take from it. Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more at rearrangedpodcast.

[D]

Com Osiris.