Top 25 Tours — #1 — Fall 1995

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast – Episode: Top 25 Tours #1 – Fall 1995

Release Date: December 19, 2024
Host/Author: Osiris Media

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Introduction

In the culminating episode of their highly acclaimed series, the Helping Friendly Podcast (HFPod) dives deep into Phish's Fall 1995 tour, positioning it as the top tour in their extensive ranking. Hosts RJ, Megan, and Brian engage in a passionate discussion, reflecting on the tour's significance and its enduring legacy within the Phish community.

Main Discussion: Fall 1995 vs. Fall 1997

The central debate of the episode revolves around whether the Fall 1995 tour truly deserves the top spot over the often-celebrated Fall 1997 tour. Brian confidently asserts,

"I do think that...fall 95 is the best tour of all time. Me, it's clearly the tour where Phish actually learns how to jam and improvise."
(05:27)

Conversely, listeners like Matt from the audience advocate for Fall 1997, emphasizing its enhanced improvisational skills and groove-oriented jams:

"1997 is definitely the best tour of all time. It's the tour where the band learned how to use space...and genuinely make me laugh."
(05:28)

Listener Insights and Perspectives

The episode features insightful listener contributions that shape the discussion. Matt, a longtime Phish enthusiast, underscores the evolution in Phish's jamming techniques, suggesting that Fall 1997 showcases the band's matured improvisational prowess. Similarly, Evie (Brian) and other listeners like Beck highlight specific performances and setlists that bolster their arguments for Fall 1995's supremacy.

Host Analysis: Why Fall 1995 Stands Out

Brian presents a thorough analysis, arguing that Fall 1995 represents Phish at a pivotal moment of achieving their artistic goals while simultaneously laying the groundwork for future evolution. He draws parallels to iconic bands like U2 and Radiohead, emphasizing that Fall 1995 was a transformative period where Phish perfected the arena rock sound without compromising their creative integrity.

"This is what 12 years of work and dedication and friendship and belief in yourself looks like."
(95:03)

Megan adds that the tour's ability to balance high-energy performances with intricate setlists showcases Phish's versatility:

"This ability of the band to peak and also look toward the future is really the biggest takeaway I have from this whole entire series."
(93:01)

Musical Evolution and Setlist Diversity

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the tour's setlist diversity and musical experimentation. The hosts dissect how Fall 1995 balanced groove-heavy jams with exploratory improvisations, setting the stage for Phish's later experimentation in subsequent tours.

Megan highlights the tour's technical prowess and its role in perfecting Phish's sound:

"They are playing at their absolute peak...perfecting arena rock and looking towards the future in a way that the best tours capture."
(36:12)

Brian emphasizes the strategic reinvention post-Fall 1995, ensuring that Phish remained relevant and continuously evolving:

"Reaching these heights has pushed Fish through their future great periods where everything connects."
(95:03)

Specific Show Highlights

The hosts and listeners spotlight several standout performances from the Fall 1995 tour:

• 10:22 Champagne Terrace Amphitheater: Celebrated for its masterful blend of classic hits with innovative jamming segments.

• 11:21 and 11:14 Shows: Recognized for their exceptional musical communication and dynamic setlists that encapsulate the tour's essence.

• 12:15 Tour Finale: Lauded as a pinnacle moment where Phish delivered a flawless and emotionally charged performance, solidifying Fall 1995's top-tier status.

Megan passionately discusses the Binghamton show, describing it as "an utter flow" and "magic," underscoring its perfection in capturing Phish's synergy and improvisational excellence:

"This set, it's just magic. It's an absolutely note for note, perfect Coyote... it's such a perfectly executed set."
(88:06)

Conclusion: The Legacy of Fall 1995

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts converge on the consensus that the Fall 1995 tour represents a seminal moment in Phish's history. It not only showcases the band's technical mastery and creative ambition but also serves as a foundation for their continued evolution and reinvention in the years that followed.

Brian encapsulates the tour's legacy by comparing it to legendary moments in music history, asserting its place as a defining chapter for Phish:

"If Fall 97 is when a band has reached a point of perfection and has to change, Fall 95 is what Phish needed to reach that point."
(95:03)

Megan echoes this sentiment, highlighting Fall 1995's role in Phish's enduring appeal and artistic resilience:

"This is a moment of purity for them and it's the absolute peak of their powers."
(93:01)

Final Thoughts and Future Directions

As the series concludes, the hosts express gratitude to their listeners and reflect on the transformative journey of analyzing Phish's tours. They hint at future discussions and potential rankings, inviting audience engagement to continue exploring the band's rich legacy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brian on Fall 1995's Superiority:
  "There is no such thing as the greatest...this is a subjective conversation here."
  (01:59)

• Megan on Setlist Mastery:
  "This set to the whole first set is like a perfect show. It's actually like a show in itself."
  (71:28)

• Brian on Musical Communication:
  "It's about connectivity versus wild exploration...finding where groove and melody and space collide."
  (63:42)

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a heartfelt homage to Phish's Fall 1995 tour, meticulously arguing its unparalleled impact on the band's trajectory and the fanbase's reverence. Through engaging debates, listener insights, and comprehensive analysis, HFPod cements Fall 1995's place as a cornerstone in Phish's storied live performance history.

Transcript

[Megan]

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[Brian]

Osiris.

[RJ]

All right, guys, it's a big day here at HF Pod. We are wrapping up our series, if you can believe it, happening right now. And you all are here. You're either here live or you're listening. Maybe you're listening back from like, you know, 15 years from now to hear how we wrapped up this series that has been talked about for, for decades. But if you're just listening or watching live because you like to around and be in the chat with us, we also appreciate that. So if you're in the future or you're in the present, you are in the right place. So thank you for, for tuning in, I guess. What's, what's, what's, what's first. We got so much.

[Megan]

I really enjoyed that intro. Rj, that was great.

[RJ]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Megan]

Yeah, I really liked that.

[RJ]

We have a lot, we have a lot to say about this tour. We have a lot to say about the series. We are, I think, gonna maybe possibly do a wrap up so we can talk more about the tour and the series next week. But we don't really know if that's happening yet because I think one of the two of you needs to tell me if you're. If you can do it or not. But we'll figure that out. And if you can't, if we can't do it, it's not anyone's fault. It's just life. It is the holidays after all. So we have so much. We have so many voicemails, we have so much commentary. People are so fired up about this. There's. There are people who are sad. There are people who are happy. There are people who are feeling happy and sad at the same time. It's all. It's all going to come together here.

[Megan]

So meanwhile, I'm just feeling tired. I'm just feeling tired.

[RJ]

Yeah, Megan's feeling tired. Megan is coming into this with her draft attitude that she's, you know, kind of nervous. Like, I don't. And then she's gonna win the episode, and everyone's gonna. Everyone's gonna send us emails about how great Megan was, and Brian and I will be like, cool, great.

[Megan]

Oh, I love it. I'm gonna have to get a new stick. I'm gonna have to get a new.

[RJ]

Years of doing this doesn't mean got Megan. So that's. So what are we gonna do, Brian? Not much.

[Brian]

Not much, man. Just gonna talk about this tour. It's an okay tour. So, you know.

[RJ]

Okay. All right, well, you know what? Where should we start? Oh, I want to say. I just. I want to give a shout out real quick. Brian and Megan. As you guys know, I play basketball fairly often, very often. And there's a group that I started playing basketball with about a couple months ago, and this guy started talking with this guy Jeremy, and he had heard, I think, of the podcast or, like, vaguely. But in between the two weeks, one week to the next, he listened to our last episode, and he was like, wow, sometimes I think that I listen to too much fish, and then I listen to your podcast and realize I don't listen to enough fish. So thank you, Jeremy, for checking us out. He also, he. He scored all 11 points in the last game that we played last Sunday. And then now he's going somewhere on vacation. That's fun for December. So Jeremy's, like, living the life and appreciate you sticking up podcast.

[Brian]

What kind of shot does he have? Is it like a midi? Does he shoot from the arc? Does it. Is it a floater? What does he got?

[RJ]

Everything really, really, really fundamental. Jump shot. He made, I think, three threes in that game. And then. And another jump shot. It was not a lot. A lot of driving, a lot of great shots.

[Brian]

So he's just ruined basketball. I'll tell you what.

[RJ]

Yep, exactly. Okay, so, okay, we. Megan knows. Megan knows about that. All right, let's listen to a voicemail. Let's listen to a voicemail that's really just going to kind of like make us all feel. Feel happy about. About this space that we share together. Hi, guys.

[Matt]

This is Matt. I'm A longtime listener and a second time caller, I was the guest episode 472014 nearly 10 years ago to the day. The show I brought to discuss 72599 that's right, the show. You've got to release it. Kevin and Brian so young that I can only assume he from this episode back in 2014.

[Megan]

That is so good.

[Matt]

But anyway, I really love your podcast. Not only are you all fish nerds like me, but I think the underrated part is you really have incredible rapport and chemistry and you genuinely make me laugh. It's fun to listen to, but no more. Nice thought. I have a big bone to pick. I'm sorry. The fans are 100% correct. 1997 is definitely the best tour of all time. Me it's clearly the tour where Phish actually learns how to jam and improvise. And really the band has not been the same ever since. You have to read Wax Banks, Tiny Space to Move and Breathe. This is the tour where the band learned how to use space. It's the tour where the band learned to be more patient, the tour where they learned a more democratic approach to jamming, where all members equally contributed. And I think more than the funk, it's really the tour where groove became indispensable to their sound. And you can hear all of these approaches still in their jams in 2024 and 2023 and really every every year since 1997. And you know what jams don't like sound like in 2024? They don't sound like summer 1995. That's because they're still totally learning how to Jam in 1995. And let's face it, some of it kind of sucks, especially in the summer and fall. 95 is great and they definitely peaked in a way. But I would argue that they're still figuring out there were only months removed from the summer. And one thing they did figure out was to not jam like summer 95 notwithstanding the some standout jams from that summer. But the jams in fall 95 were more rock than groove and Trey was really at the center. And I would argue they were still really figuring out the approach to jamming, that they really, they really, they really did figure it out in 1997. And if you don't believe me, just listen to what the band said in the Fish book and in many interviews, particularly in 1998 with the release of Story of the Ghost, that they really felt like they had made such a breakthrough in their improvisation in that year. So that's why fall 97? Obviously the best tour of all time. And Anyway. But I still look forward to what you have to say about fall 90. I've probably talked too long, so. You guys are the best. 90 cents. Thank you.

[Megan]

Amazing.

[RJ]

Yeah, we got a lot. We got a lot. Do you want to just keep going through a couple more and then we'll. Then we'll talk? Or do you want to.

[Megan]

There's a lot to talk about there.

[RJ]

I know, I know. But it's also like kind of the whole show. This whole episode is going to be this discussion. Not the whole.

[Brian]

True.

[RJ]

At least part of it. Hold on, let me. Let's give Brian some. Hold on. Wait. Actually, you know what? Sorry. Let's. We're not going to do that one yet. We're going to do this one. We're going to do. Oh, no. We have to do this one. Yep. Cool. Great.

[Megan]

Hello.

[RJ]

Good job, everybody.

[Evie]

HF Pod Head. Anyway, how you doing? It's Brian again. I'm the nerdy guy who listens to all the drafts. Anyway, just finish listening to the number two slot, 1997. I was fortunate enough to see a lot of those shows. And actually, Brian Brinkman. My birthday is September 14th. 1999 was my 22nd birthday, and I was at that Boise show. And it is indeed my. Probably my favorite show that I saw. Very, very, very lucky. Very good. Anyway, I digress. Back to what I was saying about 1997 and you saying it was the vibiest tour. There's another band right now that's kind of going through it. You can liken it to kind of what King Gizzard's doing right now. Like every night of their tour, they got better and better and better. Every minute of the show, it seems like, is an upward trajectory. That's what that was like there. And you're right that Enraptured is a great way to put how we were feeling at the time. Yeah. Love you guys. That's just my thoughts on it. I'm an HF Pod head. God damn it. I love it. All right, bye, guys.

[RJ]

People are really coming out of the wooden burg. But there's more from this particular listener you called Beck, if you can believe it. Can you believe it? I bet you can.

[Megan]

I can't wait.

[Evie]

All right, it's Brian again. Nerdy HF Pod head. I just been thinking about what a great show you guys just did. You know, I don't know. I think that 97 show was. Was really good. And I'm speaking to my namesake, Brian over there, buddy. You're kind of like my guru at this point. Like, I love where your brain goes. I love the analyticalness. Like, I'm a Virgo man. Like I said, My birthday is 9 14. Blessed be. By the way. Don't listen to the comments, man. That's the first thing. Don't listen to those people. They are Jada's vets. I'm a vet too. And I want to tell you something. Your brain is beautiful. I really, really appreciate the way you think about this band. I don't know, I've just been stewing on your words of wisdom. All of you guys. I love you guys so much. You do such a good job. And yeah, it's nerdy as hell, but so are we as a group, you know? I don't know, it's. I just wanted to say that, man. Brian, I think you're. You're right on, brother. Keep it up. You got a great name. I love it. I don't know why, but I do. Anyway. Brian Nerdy hf Pod Head out.

[Megan]

It's your biggest fan.

[RJ]

I know, it's really amazing. So, okay, we have a couple more, but I'll. I'll pause there.

[Megan]

Wait.

[Brian]

Took all this time. We had to find one.

[Megan]

Can we please change Brian's name to Brian? Beautiful Brian Brinkman.

[RJ]

Yes.

[Megan]

Amazing. That was so nice.

[RJ]

So nice. Nobody's calling in talking about our beautiful brains. Megan.

[Megan]

Oh, wow.

[RJ]

Brian, do you have any response to anything that you've heard thus far?

[Brian]

Nothing makes me more comfortable than public praise. I'll tell you what, it's my favorite thing in the world. No. So I've been thinking a lot about this debate that I think we're going to have during this episode. And I think it's a worthy debate to have. I think it is perhaps the debate to have within Fish history because while. And I'll just set the caveat here for all of the non rankers out there in the world, lists are fun. There is no such thing as best. There is no such thing as greatest. This is all subjective. We are having a subjective conversation here. But I do think that, like, there are two pathways that this band takes based on what happens in 1995 and specifically towards the latter end of the fall versus what happened after and what they decided to do with the level that they'd reached. And I think it is the most fascinating aspect about their overall history, their overall creative trajectory. I feel really confident in my belief of where this tour falls for reasons that I will be sharing throughout this episode. I'm curious to hear your guys thoughts as well. I know that Meg is in the vibey corner usually. She, she loves the groove, she loves the funky. However, she did select this tour as number one.

[RJ]

Rj, that's really great.

[Brian]

Just table here.

[RJ]

Throw people into the bus.

[Megan]

I have a defense prepared for that as well. Just FYI, RJ.

[Brian]

Knows more about this band than anyone I know and has a way of speaking about this band that when I hear it I'm like, okay, yeah, that is the feeling. That is the consensus belief, just the way that you speak about them. And so I think that we're going to have a really engaging conversation here. I think that to the first caller, his reasons for why 97 is better than 95 are not necessarily wrong in any sort of way. I hope to be able to build a case today that showcases why we have put fall 95 as the number one tour of all time without any respect to 1997. So that's where I feel right now. I want to thank my brethren, Brian, for, for the, for the love and the praise, even though it's sitting here squirming in my seat the whole time.

[RJ]

Do you guys want to hear a little bit more from our callers about fall 97 and fall 95 and then we'll get into our conversation, or do you want to start and then interject later?

[Brian]

I'm gonna let you decide. My, my thought would be we should get rolling with some of our thoughts and then have the callers interject. But unless you think that there's more foundation to set here, you. You.

[RJ]

I think we can.

[Brian]

You wanted to give us more context. I'm down with it, you know.

[RJ]

No, I think we can. I think we can. We can put these in a little bit later. Okay, I'm just gonna go. I'm gonna just come in with my hot take here. You guys ready?

[Megan]

Let's do it. Let's go.

[RJ]

I think the. The crazy thing about this project is that there's. It basically made us, or made me at least think about this band and the music in a total different way than I've ever thought about them before. Including like, you know, when I first heard these tours. I mean, it's really changed the way that I hear the band. And it's a really. It's a unique project because we're. We're going through here and we're listening to large tours and trying to listen to as much of them as we can in a small amount of time. And it's just kind of. It's a different way of. Of thinking about this music, and that's what's really fun about it. But so I. This take that I have is not based on fall 97 versus fall 95 or what should be ranked number one or number two, because I don't really care. And I don't. I really don't care. Maybe I should care for, like, the clicks, but. But I. But I just think this is just giving me such a different perspective on this tour and all the might.

[Brian]

Carrying more might win you more drafts. Let's just put that out there. Okay?

[RJ]

That's true.

[Brian]

I also, just. Before you speak, I do just have to note that you, who criticized me three weeks ago for setting the table before a hot take, is doing the exact same thing.

[RJ]

I know I learned from you.

[Brian]

I really come out with just a hot take when there's a microphone in front of you. We all know this.

[RJ]

My takeaway from listening this weekend. It's going to be so great. I think that this. I think that this tour is the, like, one of the biggest instances of unintentional gaslighting in Fish history. I think that, like, you get tapes, tape collecting and trading. Think about 95, tape collecting and trading stories of people on tour. The age of fans that were coming to Fish at the time. Technology, the Internet being starting to be, like, a daily interaction in our lives, watching these setlists come in as people are on tour. There's so many college kids and just out of college people who are discovering this band for the first time. There's stories. Fish.net is being built. There's Andy Gadiel, of course, and there's just this cultural phenomenon within the Phish community that so many people and so many fans experienced all this stuff together at this time, that it became something like. That was unimpeachable in any way, which I think is like. It's still, like, one of the best tours, there's no question. But I think if you listen to these 25 tours in full and then you look back, it's. It changes your perspective. So Brian knows this better than anyone. History is written by the winners, you know, and so. But the winners in this case are all the Fish fans who are becoming Fish fans and becoming, like, obsessed with Fish and becoming Fish evangelists at this time around this tour. And we're, like, seeing. We're still seeing the legacy. I mean, I look at the Jam charts for this tour, and it's like, it's. This tour is great. You know, it's There we'll talk about why it's so great. But when you look at the Jam charts and you look at the, you know, there's like a, you know, eight minute theme from the bottom and it's like the description is like, this band is just too good. And you're like, I mean, come on, we're talking about like must hear.

[Megan]

Must hear version.

[RJ]

Must hear a must hear. There's so much must here. And I just feel like it is about this, like time in history when the Internet and the age of the band and the age of the fans and all the tape trading and all this stuff kind of like came together. It and like kind of peaked like in this tour and everything else was kind of after fall 95. And I'm not talking about the music at all. I'm just talking about the culture of Fish and how it built to this point and now it's like built up into this mountain that there's no way to knock it down. There's no way to refute it. It's just like fall 95 is the best. And that's because we said so. So I think it's like. I think it's an interesting. I would not have thought about that if we didn't do this project and we didn't end with this tour. So that's my. That's my hot take for now.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's really interesting. First of all, I think that's incredible analysis because it's the only kind of analysis you would come to after doing a project like this. Like, you would never get that if you didn't do it like this. I think comparing different eras of the band back to back like this in such a short amount of time really does give you this ability to compare them in a way that's truly unique. And I agree with that. I think what is so interesting to me is that this tour is so huge. It's 54 shows and they are not the best 54 consecutive shows in Fish history. Not even close. And so it's like if you. There's pockets of this tour, like I would say if you said December 95, that if you isolated that, that's probably definitely contending for number one. But the whole entire tour, I mean, it's like three months long. It's. It's just. There's so much setless repetition. There's a real, to me, inconsistency until you hit like the middle of November, maybe the Fox, like the beginning of November. And then there's also just the Jamming is very, very repetitive. Like, it's. Some of it. There's a few examples that stand outside of that. Like, you think of like the free from 1122 or the down with the these from 1212. But most of the jamming is kind of in one lane. It's incredibly, like, just takes such an incredible amount of talent to do the kind of jamming they're doing. It's the peak of their powers. Nobody's ever played as fast or as tight or as aggressively or as fast as the band does in this tour. But the jams aren't exploratory, most of them. And they're not taking you on a journey or searching, which is fine. That's. That's not where they were at this point. But it's interesting to me because they had been earlier. Like, if you look at like fall 94, those jams are so deep and so exploratory and maybe. And that's not just not where they were in fall 95. And that's fine. And they were at moments, so that's not a fair thing to say. But it's so interesting because you have this tour where they come off fall 94 and summer 95, really heavy jamming tours. And then you start this tour where they don't jam for like a month practically. I mean, they do, but like very, very small. And it's just a different thing. And I think they were going for a different thing and they were like perfecting arena rock and it was just, you know, they were in a different space. But it's fascinating to see, to think about. Like, the three shows that I saw on this tour were in the very beginning in California. They are potentially at a great time, the most like, uneventful shows I've ever seen Fish play. And they were on this tour. So there is a, A, a warm up to this tour that's pretty significant, which is fine, I think. But it does to me impact the overall flow. If you look at. There's just such a narrative arc to like fall 97 or fall 94 that this tour to me doesn't have as much. Except in December when they really kind of, to me come into their own and are jamming in a way that's more compelling and also more consistent.

[RJ]

Wow, Brian, what do you got?

[Brian]

Like, I feel like when like CNN invites Rick Santorum on and he's just like sitting in the corner and, you know, like liberal commentators are going off and he's just gotta like sit there and be like, low taxes are good. So I think you both make some good arguments. I don't dispute it. I think, rj, your argument of like, I think you go a little extreme with the gaslighting standpoint. I think that you're absolutely right. People were coming of age at this point in time. The Internet, all that's kind of coalescing. Fish is getting bigger at the same time. I have to imagine. I don't totally know because I was probably just out of my mom's womb at this point. This was like 10 years into my life that, you know, there was a sense of we have to like, almost like what you see right now with the Goose fan base where like Jerry had just passed, there's this like, should we or should we not jump on the fish train? Fish is getting bigger. They're playing bigger arenas. And we, the younger crew, believe that this band is capable of something really, really big. And it means a lot to our life. It could mean a lot to your life. It's how you get people saying that the Creatures from Goosemas was like the greatest thing that they've ever heard when it's like, it's five minutes of good music and then creatures come on gu. So like, I certainly, I accept what you mean. And I remember like when I first got into Fish and when the live Fish series was released, I was really disappointed that the first six shows did not have a fall 97 show, because that sounded really interesting to me, that idea. And I remember going on a fantasy tour and people being like, if you haven't heard December 95, like, just get the fuck out of here. And you know, like, there's, there's a lot of truth to that because when I listened to that set, I was like, oh, wow. This is a very fast, like in command, like dexterous band that just knows what they're going for and is going after it. So I think while you're right, this has been pushed and this has been preached. I do think that there's a reason for that. I think, Megan, your argument of like the 54 shows, are these the best 54 shows in fish history? That's an incredibly high bar that I don't think, like if you broke that down across any period in the band's history, you could be like, these 54 shows all kick ass. And the comparison there to like fall 97, we're talking about a month long tour versus a two and a half month long tour. It's two different beasts.

[Megan]

I know. It's so hard. That's why it's a little bit hard to compare them because we are thinking about the whole tour, right?

[Brian]

We are. And so to your point, I would agree with you both. I think that the west coast and into the Midwest run feels a little bit more of a warmup than what we would have expected. I think if you expand the scope here, three of our top five tours this fall 94 and summer 93 have similar aspects to them. And I think part of that is that this tour specifically is finding the band at the end of their first chapter. To me, the simplest reason why this is the number one tour of all time is that everything that they had been thinking of and dreaming of and working at and working harder than they would ever work throughout the rest of their career coalesces in this tour tour. You're absolutely right. There's a lot of repetition. From a set listing standpoint. At this point in time, they were using something of like a set list structure to guide their shows where you had diversity of songs. The songs were really what was driving everything one to two jam vehicles. Some Fishman songs, some fun, some gimmicks, some narration. There was a whole grab bag assortment to the Fish experience that is still being applied at this point in time. I think because of how successful this tour is, they then had to change that. They had to reinvent themselves because they had reached the peak, they'd seen the end of the road on that, I think also in this, I think goes to RJ's critiques. But to me, I see this more from a positive standpoint. This tour spends three or four weeks circling the Northeast very similar to how fall 97 did. But this tour does it in a way that we're doing this all for the first time. We're leading up to a New Year's Eve show at Madison Square Garden. We're playing in a lot of these arenas that we've only played in for specialty shows. Now we're playing in one off type of situations. You hear this band in the clearest sense possible, realizing all of the goals that they set when they were 18 years old. And it's all coming true now. The counter to that would be there have been more peaks later in their career, there's more creative invention later in their career and reinvention. There's more exploration later in their career. And I would totally agree with that. I think that this is, to me, to make a comparison to another favorite artist of mine. This is like bringing it all back home. Highway 61 revisited Blonde on Blonde in a tour Whereas like fall 97, you're getting a different flavor of Fish. You're getting a different side of the band. Similar to like how Blood on the Tracks gives you a different flavor of who Bob Dylan is. You get later in his career and you get these kind of like messy moments where he realizes and rediscovers the magic on like Time out of Mind, Love and Theft, Tempest, Rough and Rowdy Ways. You get that in fish. With summer 2003, summer 2015, the Baker's Dozen, all the stuff that we've seen since 4.0. But all of that, as I hear, and maybe I'm wrong very, very easily could be wrong.

[Megan]

All of that is a response with that beautiful brain. No way.

[Brian]

Right?

[RJ]

All of that is.

[Brian]

All of that is a response the first time and the first time that you fully realize and achieve all of your goals. So I'll pause there. I know that's a lot. There was some response to you guys. There were some thoughts of my own. I'm curious your guys thoughts overall.

[RJ]

Well, I just want to. Can I just follow up with. On one point that Megan brought up, which I do think is like more of a mechanical thing than like, are.

[Brian]

You going to criticize Megan? Because like, this is our opportunity to criticize Megan now.

[RJ]

I would like to. I don't have anything right now, but I'll think about it. One of the tours that I mentioned that this changed my perspective on a lot of tours, this, this project. And not all for the better, obviously, but some of them for the better. Like, I think I probably came out of fall 97 thinking like, this is maybe not as good as I once thought it was. But one of the tours that I definitely came out thinking like, this is way better than I gave it credit for was summer 95. Because some of those long jams that I. That's a win. Yeah. Some of those jams that I'd previously been like, all right, this is like 54 minutes of nonsense. I sort of came away being like, wow, this is like really much more interesting and inventive than I thought. And I think that point of like, you get these summer 95 jams and then there's what, two months of a break and then there's basically like two weeks where like they don't really jam.

[Megan]

It's so confusing.

[RJ]

I mean, so weird to go, they do jam. There are 12 minute stashes or whatever. But like, what, like, what happened to those, like long jams?

[Brian]

I just don't.

[RJ]

I don't really understand it.

[Megan]

It's so weird to see that. Like my two first two shows, I saw the Grand Rapids show in fall 94, insane jamming. And then I saw Deer Creek 95, like just a fantastic show. And then I go to see them that fall and it's just like Billy Breeze songs and keyboard army. And I'm like, what's happening? Like it was just so drastically different. Like the, the energy was so different and you know, it changed. But yeah, I agree.

[RJ]

I just don't really understand it. But I hope that. Brian.

[Megan]

Yeah. What happened?

[Brian]

Well, my read has always been that they kind of felt like they took things too far in the summer and that they.

[Megan]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Brian]

And this is just my impression of it, that they wanted to figure out a way, and this is part of the reason why I love this tour so much. They wanted to figure out a way to be as creative and as exploratory, but to do it in a manner that was less for shock value and more for the pursuit of musical communication. And so I always have thought about this tour similarly to the decision post 1980, 88 to basically abandoned jamming. And from 89 through 92 there's very, very little type 2 jamming of any sort. The whole focus is the show, the variety aspect, the anything can go here, surprises, hijinks. And that to me, when they start this tour, and they know when they're starting it, that this all ends. This is not included in our tour here, but this all ends at Madison Square Garden on New Year's Eve. Yeah. And we have to be able to own that night. And rj, I don't want to cut you off too much because I think you might still have something to say. But the one thing I just will say, like this is a band that is not just interested in experimentation. This is a band that is interested in experimentation at a mass level and experimenting in arenas and taking over a cultural like corner of American pop culture. And not a lot of bands have that much ambition, drive, and also creativity and also that kind of focus and that like workhorse mentality to be basically a pop star level band from a financial standpoint, from a. From a audience draw standpoint, from a communal standpoint, but also really challenging you as a listener. Really blowing minds. And I think that they recognize that if they brought the summer 95 jams into the arenas, they were not going to be playing arenas for very long. And I think it's very critical to understand this band's history knowing that they had to reach an arena status to be Able to do fall 97, to be able to play Halloween albums on a regular basis, to be able to play Big Cyprus and to have the last 25 years of their history even with as many ups and downs as they've had. So to me it was a. It was, it was a critical decision to say let's rein back the jamming and let it evolve on our terms and within our own goals, rather than just let it continue to roll well.

[Megan]

And I think that that's interesting if you think about it, because they did take so much less risk in those areas that they weren't as popular right in the west coast, in the Midwest, in these venues, that they weren't, you know, sure that they would have as much. They took all the big risks when they were back in the Northeast. So it kind of tracks and makes sense that they would do that. And the argument, I will say for having this tour here, because I do think that it is, when I went into this, I was convinced this was the best tour because I was a little worried that my fall 97 pick was basic because that's just always been my favorite tour. And I didn't know if that was just like a plebeian thought and I didn't know if that was as academic as maybe the beautiful brains here on the show. And so I was like, maybe I'm wrong.

[Brian]

I'm never going to let this down, am I?

[Megan]

Maybe like, you know, I just like, I don't know what I'm doing as much. Like maybe it is fall 95. And also because I do believe in this like absolute figure of the power is the first peak in that. But I will say that I do think there is an argument that this band thinking about what they were doing, knowing that they are stepping into this role, like you just really put really well, Brian, of like becoming this next level band and they have to perfect arena rock. They also have to figure out how to fill arenas with their sound, which is totally different. You know, you have Fishman on this tour, really growing his sound, but still remaining as complex. But you like learning how to fill those arenas and it's just so powerful. And to hear it start outside in California, which is so different and closer to the summer and then as they move and then they're playing all the indoor spaces in the fall, you really hear it like resounding in a way that they. They've owned that sound so well. And you think about how Trey was taking the Minikit, which, you know, there's like there's a lot of. A lot of things about the mini kit, a lot of mini kit jams. But he's doing that to try to push them to be more democratic and to allow other people to step up. And you hear Paige just, like, filling that space consistently with, like, so much drama and so much lead work in jams in a way that, like, you know, hadn't been as prominent. And so I think. And also allowing Trey to do more, like, texture and loop work while he's on the minikit, but which is also a little bit of a preview of what is going to come later on. And so it's just interesting that in this tour, they are perfecting one kind of thing, and maybe their jamming is a little more narrow and singular, but they are also looking towards the future in a way that I think the best jams on this, like, the best tours that we've talked about all do. Like, they capture a moment in time, but they also always look towards evolution. And I think think this tour does that as well.

[Brian]

Yeah. The last part, I agree with wholeheartedly that that is, to me, the thing that makes this band the most special is that all that constant moving forward, you're always hearing them just, like, thinking ahead and you get that here. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[RJ]

No, no, I was just gonna say, I think a lot of the things that you said, Megan, I hear in fall 94, but, I mean, not the. Not the very last part. Yes. Percussion.

[Megan]

Well, that's what I'm so confused about is, like, fall 94, like, the real, like, peak as far as, like, exploratory risk taking and jamming the first time. Like, that's what I'm thinking because that tour blew my mind when we listened to it. Like. Like, I couldn't even believe how good that tour was. And I've listened to that tour, but before, but it just, like, it really. In this context of these tours, it really stood out and in the same way that fall 97 did. And I don't know, I feel almost like. Does that belong? I don't know. I'm just curious if it's like, I guess we'll talk about this later about how we would restructure the top five. But interesting. Made me think a lot about it.

[Brian]

I mean, that's one thing I think about. My preferred style of Fish and what I reach for is more in the fall 94 vein than fall 95 in terms of what I want out of this brand. And we'll probably talk about this next week when we hopefully Do a recap. But, like, I'll reach for fall 94 before anything at this point in time. Like that, that tour completely blew my mind. I guess when I think about that tour versus this, I think that there's more on the line here and there's more totally room for them to. If they don't play this tour the way that they played, I think that their whole career looks different. I think that if they. They don't reach the heights that they reach by December and at the Madison Square Garden show on New Year's Eve, there is no forced reinvention, which, like, there's no reason to push themselves to 97, which I think the first caller we listened to. He's absolutely right. You hear fall 97 still to this day in a way that you don't hear fall 95. I would personally think of that as a slight critique of fall 97, because I think that, like the discovery of funk by Fish and how it works in jam bands in their jamming has seeped into larger jam band culture in a way that I wish more 9495 would. Because it is a bit of an easier jamming approach that feels good. Whereas this summer 95, fall 94 feels a bit noisier, a little bit more abrasive than. Than. Than what they would literally what they would later discover.

[Megan]

Well, and it's way harder to do. Like, this is like playing this fast and this perfect and this tight is really fucking hard. Like, I don't know if they could do that. Like, this is just. It takes such a level of virtuosity that it's like. It's hard to mimic. Whereas. Yeah, the groove is not as hard to mimic.

[Brian]

There's a lot of really good comments here.

[Megan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brian]

And about Quadrophenia that we should definitely sh. That I don't know if. Well, I guess now I'm about to say that I should shut up. This and remain in light are the two Halloween albums that I hear sonically have the biggest impact on the band going forward?

[RJ]

Yeah, Yeah. I. I think. I wonder what. What's the. I'm just trying to figure out what's the. What's the argument here? Just because of the kind of full rock band more song focused that that was what they were thinking about or the who helped who cover helped push that forward.

[Megan]

Like fill a big arena like that. That be. And be like driving and percussive and like.

[Brian]

Yeah. And thematic. I think. Because I don't think you get. I don't think you get Those great fall 97 jams that ultimately have space and are expansive without the band learning how to jam within, like a melody. We talked about this a lot in August 93 that, like the great jams from that month, you'd have an idea and then another idea and then another idea and then another idea. And then by the fall of 94, those jams are so stretched out and there's not a ton of like, there's not as much idea as there is like, let's get as far away and stay connected as possible. And here it's kind of bringing everything back together and saying a great jam doesn't have to be 40 minutes long, it could be 15 minutes long. As long as within that jam, we are fully connected and fully on the same page at the same time. Which is something that they would really apply in 2012. 13, 14, 15. Which is, I think, part of why a lot of tours from that era were in our list as well. That kind of hive mind approach where it doesn't take a lot of time and they just jump into it and they find an idea and run with it. You get that a lot in this tour as well.

[RJ]

Okay, so we need to. We gotta go. We gotta keep going. We got. There's so much to talk about. We have a couple more listeners who were talking about Praise for Fallout 5 and comparing fallen 95 and fall 97, but we might have to hold off on those just because we have so much to talk about. Let's talk about. Did we find out why they didn't jam for a while? I guess we did. Okay, well, let's move.

[Brian]

Can I just quickly. I think that that is a false. That is. That's. That is not true. There. There's a great.

[RJ]

We're just wondering why they didn't jam. That's all you do.

[Brian]

Ev, dude. One of our smartest commentators shouting out 10, 11, 10, 14, 107 as well. I will fully acknowledge with you guys there are a lower quality or lower quantity of jams between September 27th and Halloween. But I just will submit the 927 hood, the 10.5 bowie, the 10.6 tweezer, the 1011 mic screw, the 1014 stache, catapult and yam. The 1017 jam. That's a 32 minute long improvisational jam with Modeski, Martin and Wood. Curious if you got around to that. Was that expansive enough for you guys? The 1019 mike screw, 1022 tweezer in Makasupa, the 1024 yam and antelope 1025 mikes and debris, 1027 bowie. And the 1031 yam, which Meg picked for her winning draft. Those jams, that's a lot of jamming in four weeks, period in time. Those are some great jams to be listening to.

[Megan]

They're great. And I have some of those on my list. And one of those is one of my favorite jams on this tour. But they're scattered out through like two months.

[Brian]

So I'm just saying that's one month. Because once you get to November, it is a night to night thing. It is a nightly thing.

[Megan]

Can I just tell you the jam chart ratio for this tour really quickly? I'm not going to.

[Brian]

Yes, you can.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's 3.12. It's the lowest in our top five. It might be the lowest in the entire series. 3.12. And there's a lot of shows, but you know, they're. They're playing a lot. There's only 169 jam chart entries for this whole entire tour. So I'm just saying that. And the other one that's closest is fall 94, but that's like 3.7 or something. But that. Those jams are fucking huge. They're like 45 minutes. So it's different. These are like 15 minute jams on here. There's like eight minute jams, like RJ said. There's like timber at like seven minutes. And it's a jam on this chart. So I'm just saying if I've learned.

[Brian]

Anything from this series, it's that the net jam charts needs to be cold. It needs to be revised. Truly. We need to submit some new limitations and some rules to the jam charts. And I also just learned that size really does matter.

[RJ]

Okay, well, okay, let's just go back to this quickly because first of all, we already got all of Brian's highlights for this episode, which is great for running through.

[Megan]

No, that was really the first fucking week.

[RJ]

Okay. In terms of the net stuff, which we don't have to go through in detail after this, but for fall 97, we got 15 shows in the top 250 rated. Fall 95 has eight, which I think is really interesting just for comparisons purposes. But there's also, I think in the first.

[Brian]

Hold on, can you say that again? Fall 97 has 15 shows that are.

[RJ]

In the top 250 rated on fish.net, so the top 258 has only eight. There's a lot of the. They're like all the holiday, you know. Shows. Well, for both are. But just for these tours.

[Brian]

Also, I think that negates your initial argument when we started this episode. I think that that proves that the gaslighting comes from the fall 97 group. But go on.

[RJ]

There's no. No. Because that's the actual truth.

[Megan]

That shit is actually good.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan]

That's.

[Brian]

That's how gaslighting.

[Megan]

You do not want to turn off those fall 97 shows. You just turn off these. You put on. You're like, yeah, I could probably skip this. My soul. I could probably skip this, you know, hundredth time they're playing this song. Like, it's just, It's. There's. There's a lot. There's a. There's a highlight.

[Brian]

Can you light this lantern with everything you guys are saying? Because my God.

[RJ]

Okay, so the other, the other point, I would. I just want to mention you mentioned that jam with Modesty, Brendan Wood, which is awesome. And I want to talk about that more. In the first 35 shows of this tour, there is one 20 minute jam that's not. You enjoy myself. So I think like, if you're. Because I think that's the thing about like people who criticize.

[Megan]

Size matters, Brian.

[Brian]

Right.

[RJ]

It's like people are like, well, yeah, like they played. Like they played set your soul free. And some people say that was an awesome jam, but it was only like 11 minutes. Like, bro, like where the big jam. So we can't have it both ways. We can have it whichever way you guys want, but we can't. We can't do both.

[Brian]

Both.

[Megan]

You can't say that jams 95 is the best. If they play short jams and then say now sucks. Because they don't. They're playing short jams like that. It doesn't work well.

[RJ]

I just think it's like. I think it's an interesting metric, but let's just talk about that. That State Theater, State Palace Theater in New Orleans jam, which did come out on Live Bait 11, as you might know, we created a spreadsheet that has all the Live bait tracks by date. I was. I was thinking about that keyboard army into that jam is. It's interesting because Surrender to the Air came out in 96. So this is like. I mean that's kind of what this is. But I. And I feel sad in retrospect for the people who. Basically you can just hear people talking, like having conversations during this.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[RJ]

Which I understand. Like, if you're there for a show and it turns into this 30 minute like open free Jazz kind of thing with a vacuum solo. But. Yeah, but. But it's really. It's pretty awesome. I'm glad they released it on Live Bait, but I was wondering if you guys thought about the, like, the Surrender to the Air kind of crossover, and I wonder if this actually led to some of that or. They're probably already talking about it because I know he had knew Modeski before this, but it reminds me a lot of that.

[Brian]

Yeah, it does that, like, freeform nature. I think you're. You're right in a lot of ways that, like, it runs kind of counter to aspects of the tour. So it's an interesting. It's an interesting showcase of what they still could do from the summer and what freeform jamming allowed them to do. Is it the best jam of the tour? I don't think so. I think it's an interesting example of them playing without a net. No pun intended. I think it also is a showcase that, you know, if you think about the next five years, up until the hiatus at the. In October 2000, there's going to be this kind of push and pull between extended jamming and musical communication. And this is kind of the one side to the extreme of that. It's almost in line with what we talked about last week with the Worcester Wolfmans and the Worcester Runaway Gym, where these are jams that are kind of intentionally supposed to be challenging for you as a listener. And we're going to counter these with other jams that are a little bit more. They're still long compared to most rock show performances, but they're a little. They have. They have a little bit more accessibility and a little bit more melody associated with them that you as a listener can latch onto.

[RJ]

And I just want to just. Megan, I just. Can I just say one thing quickly before you jump in, which is that.

[Megan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[RJ]

I think that, like, opened up something that show, because that basically, after that, you start hearing more, I think, experimentation in the jams. Like the show after 10:17 has that mic screw, which is also on Live Bait 17. And it just felt like Paige in particular was kind of picking up on some of that stuff. So that feels to me like a turning point in terms of the improv of the tour, but. Megan, sorry to interrupt.

[Megan]

Yeah, no, I didn't have a lot. I do think it's interesting, these jams that do go really far out into kind of more exploration and searchingness. That searchingness is not a word, but more of a searching feeling to them.

[Brian]

We host a book podcast as well. Just so you guys know, I'm a.

[Megan]

Lot more articulate on that one. Yeah. And I think that they stand out so much because they're so different from the other linear jams. And this is a really good example of that. And I think that once you start seeing that more consistently, to me is when the tour starts to get more interesting. And it is fascinating that some of these sit ins work in that way really successfully.

[RJ]

Megan, what do you have? What's a jam that you would like to talk about?

[Megan]

I want to talk about this whole segment from a show that I think is kind of underrated and I really loved listening back to, which is the 10:22 show from champagne. I really love the Possum, Catapult, Tweezer, Maca Supa. Just that whole entire section or segment, excuse me, is incredible. Like the Possum. I mean, to me this is like pure power and just mastery in a set. The Possum is just beast mode from Trey, complete hose into Catapult, which I just love the liberal use of catapult and kong in this tour. Like, guys just take some notes. Like just play these songs. They're so fucking interesting and cool. Then you have like this authoritative tweezer and this incredible segue into Makasupa. And then of course you have a great slave in the set too. But I think this whole section to me felt like a turning point. I think the 1021 show in Lincoln and in this show, to me felt like when you started to really get more flow and consistency in the sets. When they started to feel like there was a bit of a fire under their ass and they felt like they had more narrative arc to their sets in a way that started to really work. And I just, I love this segment.

[Brian]

Yeah, I think it's a great call out and it's one of those really, really great sets from the early, early ish part of the tour. I think you're right about, like, when I think about the way this tour was routed, there's a lot from 9:27 to 10:17. Let's just put that as kind of a demarcation line. There are newer markets and newer venues and even if they're not new, they're kind of like there's. There's a lot of these markets that they just don't go back to on a regular basis. So in some senses they're selling themselves while starting a long, long tour that has a huge, huge conclusion to it. So the chances that they're may not necessarily resonate and the lack of chances that they're taking at times really speaks volumes. I think the one thing that breaks my heart about this tour is they play their one and only show in Missoula, Montana, and it's not a very good show.

[Megan]

It's sad.

[Brian]

It's a little sad for me. But I think you're right. Like, by the time they turn this, like, think about this. This is middle to late October and they're reaching the Midwest. We are all Midwestern kids. There is no greater time to be in the Midwest and be playing college campuses than late October. This is right when, you know, be at your football team. Ohio State is starting to pick up steam before they inevitably lose the Michigan game and, you know, ruins the entire season. But for the majority of the fall, you were really happy and you were really hopeful. This is when, if you love baseball, you're either being more than likely, you're being devastated because that's what baseball is designed to do. If not, you know, you're. You're one of the only people in the country who's actually happy at that time of year. This is not an election year, so there's not like a ton of pressure happening in America right now. It just feels like vibe wise. Yes, we talked about vibes a lot last week. This is when we're 10 days out from Halloween and then they get a break. And then from 11, 9 onwards, they play in parts of the country where they have fans who are going to come back on a regular, you know, on a mass basis. So this whole little section here, the last 10 days of October, feels like a vibe shift, probably because it just is. Like you arrive at this point, you know, you already, you already have the foundation set and now things are starting to take off.

[RJ]

Brian, I just want you to know that, you know, this is not the criticisms of any of. This is not a direct criticism of you, but I do appreciate you getting in that point about Ohio State and Michigan needling you. It's good. I mean, it's good. I mean, I don't know if anyone knows that before the last four years, Ohio State won 15 out of the previous 18 and, yeah, 10 in a row. So, you know, like, this is all. I'm not sure if you guys are history people, but this is about the bigger context of the Ohio State Michigan game.

[Megan]

But it's a long game.

[Brian]

RJ's realizing as he's like creating this argument that I don't have a college team, so there's nothing he can actually like, hurt me on Here he goes for. I don't know if you guys are history people. Like, that's what's gonna be.

[Megan]

That's the history.

[RJ]

I just want you to know that any criticism, I have a flow 95, I don't want you to take personally.

[Megan]

Yeah, Brian, don't take it personally.

[RJ]

Okay? But we want you all to take a quick break. Please, everyone settle down. All right, what else? What? What else? What other gems do we want to talk about? We have a hundred shows. What? What do we got?

[Megan]

Where are we going next, Brian?

[Brian]

All right, I'm going to throw us into November because we have spent spent 50 minutes of this podcast talking about the first three weeks of this tour and trying to use that as an explanation of why it's not the number one tour. So let's go into November because I think you're absolutely right, Megan. December 95 is one of the great, great months in fish history. But I think that there's a bit of a Fallacy that it's December 95. It's actually November and December 1995. And if you think of this tour as beginning on Oct. On Nov. 9 and going through Dec. 17, there's a lot that, like, mathematically aligns it with fall of 1997 in terms of show quality, in terms of set quality, in terms of jam quality.

[Megan]

It does not start then. But yes, if it did, hypothetically, it doesn't.

[Brian]

You're absolutely right. But, like, this is a full Fish at their absolute peak. I want to shout out a set that has a lot of jams within it. So this is one of my specialties of how do I turn a jam into or a set into a jam?

[Megan]

This is a specialty. I'm learning from you. You just see, I just did it.

[Brian]

Friends of my thread with Mr. Ryan Storm will know that I will incorporate as many songs as possible into a segment, because sometimes a jam is more than one song. This is 112195 from Winston Salem, North Carolina. The second set reads simple. David Bowie, Take me to the river. David Bowie, Glide Yamar Mics, Keyboard army Hold your head up Suspicious minds Hold your head up Carolina A day in the life that's a mouthful, some of you might say, but this is kind of what the band perfects in this tour. And it's really exemplified in the set, to me, in the sense that you get a ton of different ideas from Fish, a ton of energy shifts, a ton of, you know, really inclusive playing, really inclusive segments. But you also get this humor and this innocence and this collegiate level. Prankster Dom that I, as much as I love some of those perfect four song sets from fall 97, I do think that a lot of them are missing this one element of Fish that is a part of what makes fish fish. I may not be a history person, but I did spend six months researching and producing a fairly decent podcast on fish in the 1980s. And one of my takeaways from that project, RJ, I think you were a part of that. Did we do that together? I think we might have done that together.

[RJ]

I thought you were just going to say, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Much better.

[Brian]

But one of my takeaways from that was that while I'm not really a humor and music guy, it is a really, really critical part of what makes Fish fish and that kind of balance of lightness and darkness. And I think a set like this 112195 set two really showcases that they have this one foot in experimental music. As you hear in the David Bowie segment, as you hear in the mic song that bleeds into Keyboard army, you also have this side of them that is really invest invested in, you know, playing to who they were when they were still playing at Nectars, when they had to win all these people over. And so you're getting these two sides of Fish at the same time in a way that flows really nicely, in a way that showcases all of their strengths. Is not very one note and ultimately gives you just kind of this kind of of, for lack of a better word, this kind of gumbo of everything that makes fish fish. And it peaks at this point in time. This is. This is, you know, just one night along the tour. But this set to me really showcases the band knowing what their strengths are, knowing where they need to go, and kind of fusing that all into one.

[Megan]

Yeah, that argument for the lack of humor in 97 is a really strong one, I think, because. And the idea that it is a bit one note because I do hear that it does. And honestly some of the tours that have been my absolute favorite in this series do have a very specific sound. You know, I think of like winter 03. Like some of these tours that I just want to go back to are because they have a really specific sound. But I do think if you are thinking of like the purest form of fish, then this tour definitely has more of that than. Than a lot of the other tours that we're talking about. Set maybe fall 94, but yeah, and that Bowie is just insane that it's so inspired and that peak is so thunderous.

[RJ]

Yeah, yeah, it's really good. I mean, that. I think that's. The next night. Was that the next. No, no, sorry. The couple shows before that. The tweezer from 1112 was another interesting. Like, I felt like that had these, like, kind of hints of the Denver Ghost from 97. It's like, melodic and. And has more of a classic rock jam. And I. So I got going through these. I think, Megan, you might feel the same. Brian, I'm sure you don't, but I got kind of like. I got through except for the exceptions, which, like, this Tweezer is one of them. I got to the point where it's like, all right, Trey's on the mini. Kill it. We're like. We're doing this again for eight minutes. Like, what's the next thing that's going to happen? But there.

[Megan]

But.

[RJ]

But there are so many moments that are. That are really different than that. And I think that's. That's where like, the. The building is happening toward those future sounds, you know?

[Megan]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's like. In that tweezer, there's like a. It's like a fuzzy tone, kind of slow build, and it kind of sounds like free at times, but I think that. That they are moving more towards. And I think that's why it's interesting to talk about, like, segments as opposed to just jams, because I think of, like, the 1114, like, Orlando stash, Manteca, that whole giant section with Dog Face Boy and whatever that is. Like 40 minutes of just some of the most edge of your seat fish that you can hear. It is just complete, an utter flow. It's so interesting. It sounds completely composed, it gets dark. It's like, has all this reverb. And I just think there's a sense to that, that there were so many moments on this tour when they really latched on to a flow that is really unique and still captures that really fast, linear jamming. But it's still super interesting because they're playing with different songs. And you think about the way that goes into Dog Face Boy and how creepy it is, and it's just incredible.

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, that's the top five jam all time for me with all of these, like, you know, the Tweezer you Talked about from 11:12, the 11:21, 11:14, the mic screw from 11:15, the 11:18 yam. That's like 30 minutes. The parts of the 11:22 free. When I think about these jams, just from like, a defining sound standpoint, it's maximalist. It is. There are earworms around every corner. And I think that the goal here is connectivity versus wild exploration. This is where they're finding where groove and melody and space collide. They're not doing it as well as that aspect, as well as they will in 1997, but you are hearing them realize mid jam in a lot of these segments. And I think. Think a lot of it does have to do with the mini kit where Trey steps off and he plays a very simple groove and the band builds around him and specifically Paige. You're absolutely right, rj. He shines in a lot of cases on this tour. This is where they're hearing what will be their next project. But at the same time, Maggie made this point earlier. They're finding kind of their root within this tour is, you know, this. This type of sound, like is. Is firmly fitting within the overall arena rock vibe that they are encompassing. But it's also looking ahead two years to where they're ultimately going to go.

[Megan]

Yeah, you can hear that. I think there's such a relentless energy and so much precaution kind of moving these jams forward, and there's such an attack feeling to the music. But I think the swirling kind of psychedelic organ that Paige brings in so much just adds such a creepiness and an eeriness, and then his piano adds that sophistication. And I think that even though the jams are really narrow and driving, they're able to build an intensity and dynamics tremendously because they're so good at tension and release. So they can use that within this lane that they've set and having Trey step off, because when Trey's really forward in these jams, they just become, like, shreddy and full of hose and just like Trey just like. Like going insane. But when he steps back, you really get to hear something different and. And it's really cool. I. You know, I was reading that quote that Shapiro's, like, sound check notes from 12 7, and he was saying that they were talking a lot about space in these jams and saying space is the place. And they were practicing that. And that's interesting to me because I don't hear a lot of that. Like, I don't hear a ton of space. Like, maybe they're searching for that, and maybe you find that more in December. But for most of this tour, there's not a lot of searching space. It's not a spacious jam feeling. Like that's not at all where they are, and maybe that's where they were headed and. And maybe you hear more of that in December, but that was interesting. I don't know if you have thoughts on that, but I was surprised to hear that because it doesn't sound like that's what they're thinking about.

[Brian]

I hear it as the next step. I hear it in spots like the. There's parts of the Orlando Stash that. That sound very spacious. There's parts of the Providence down with the z's, the digital delay loop jam in the 127 mics. We could pog what I hear. I would even say, like, you know, utilizing. It's slightly a gimmick, but utilizing the silent jam in the 12:9. Yem.

[Megan]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I think parts of the 12:14. Haley's in NICU.

[RJ]

It's.

[Brian]

It's not going to be like, you know, the last, what, seven minutes of the Hampton 97. Halley's Comet is all space. They're not there yet, and it's going to take a lot of work to get there. Most of 97 is them trying to really get there. So I think that there's probably a lot of fear of what silence will do to a show. And so much of these shows are about energy and momentum. But I definitely hear it. I hear it more as the future, and I hear it as like, this is the era where they talk about it a lot in the fish book. They were coming off stage and critiquing each show and critiquing each set. So I think there's a lot of like, how do we get to that point? But you have to figure out. You have to build that road as you're walking on it. And so you hear it in bits and pieces. I don't think it's like the dominating aspect of the tour by any means.

[Megan]

The number you have reached is 100.7 WMMS.

[RJ]

It wasn't just a radio station.

[Brian]

It was a lifestyle.

[RJ]

Even if it is a rock and.

[Evie]

Roll city, for sure.

[Brian]

The Wrath of the Buzzer wmms, Cleveland. The rise and fall of one of the most iconic radio stations in America. Profiles the Rat Wrath of the Buzzard Proh Files subscribe now wherever you get podcasts.

[RJ]

Hey, what's up? This is Blake Weiland. I'm the host of the Tone Mob podcast. It's a show where I interview guitar people about guitar stuff. We talk about their pedals, their amps, their accessories, their preferences, all that stuff, as well as a healthy dose of whatever comes up. Topics have ranged from aliens to addiction and anywhere in between. Oh, yeah, and pizza. Pizza. We're definitely going to be talking about pizza. So get the show wherever you're listening to this podcast at, just search the tone mob in your search bar and it will pop right up. Come join us. We're having a lot of fun. Thanks for checking it out.

[Megan]

Rj, what do you think?

[RJ]

Yeah, I think that happens a lot more at the end. You know, like, yeah, those, those things that you mentioned. Brian, I do think there. Something changes like around that. I mean, post, post Halloween really, Like they take a, what, 10, nine day break or something and then come back. And I think that's when you start to hear that more space. I mean, I think it's pretty like, fair to say that post Halloween the gems are much more interesting.

[Megan]

Definitely 1,000%. 1,000%. Yeah.

[RJ]

Do you think? Yeah, go ahead, Go ahead, Matt, go ahead.

[Megan]

I was just gonna say, like, I do also think that maybe it's unfair to think about space in terms of when you've been listening to all these tours where they actually get there. Right. And they're so good at playing with ambient space. And so it's unfair maybe to judge this based on that and say they weren't getting there when maybe they were in moments. And it's hard to compare when you hear whole tours based on ambient space jamming. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[RJ]

We, I mean, I know we're mostly talking about November. I just want to go back to 1021, which he did talk about in the 40 for 40 series. Yeah, to me, I texted you guys this, but I feel like this is when like everything kind of falls into place for this tour. Like there's the flow, the energy, the humor, the exploration. Like, it's all kind of comes for me going through this first month. There's, there's moments like we talked about, but I feel like this show, the show's really great. I mean. Oh yeah, it's almost, it's almost flawless, you know, and it's like a. You have to listen to it front to back. There's a really. There's, there's like, it's just good flow, good set lists, like fun. I mean, it's, it's got, it's got everything. I really still love that show.

[Brian]

I mean, one thing I'd say about it is like just looking at this set list, this is, this is very much a 89 to 95 era fish set list where it is dominated by classics, really important places and really essential places in the show has a few gimmicks. First Ever Tweezer Reprise opener. Like, one of the arguments I feel like for this Tour being number one is they could have played 10.29.95. And most sane bands would, like, play a show like this and say, cool, this is our show. Like, in, like, 1972, the Rolling Stones figured out a show structure, and that is what they've played ever since. Few new songs here and there, but, like, you were getting the hits. Even Springsteen, to a degree, who changes up his set list, is still playing a structured Bruce Springsteen show that you heard in 1977. Like, he knows what works. He knows what the fans are looking for. If Phish was not an insane band, they would have been like, this is how we should play every show for the rest of our life. It'll. We'll consistently get people what changes about them is that they then play two years later, 1121, 1122 97, where they're totally different and the things that work here are not working there, and they're not even interested in trying them. And I think that that's like. To reach this point 12 years into your career and then say, let's abandon this says a lot about how good this actually is.

[Megan]

Totally. So truly, that set to the whole first set is like a perfect show. It's actually like a show in itself. The flow is amazing. If you had one big jam in that set, it would literally be the perfect show. And it's in the first set.

[RJ]

Set.

[Megan]

It's fantastic.

[RJ]

Megan, tell me a show that you were surprised at, how much you liked it. More than you expected.

[Megan]

More than I expected. I don't know. I mean, I think the. The 1022 champagne show. We talked about that. That show is incredible. I think the. I mean, I think I'd say the Fox shows kind of stand out. I think my thought is that a Fox box set would be really great, because I think that it's a kind of nice encapsulation of where the band was in that point in September. And I do think this is a turning point in the. In the kind of tour. But you just have, like, really good classics played really well. You know, the first night, you have, like, an actually good Minikit jam in Simple. You've got a gorgeous Reba, a really swirly, like, psychedelic theme, and a really rocking gin. And then the second night, you have a great Runaway Gym. Got a really strong split open and melt. There's like, a huge power play with the piano and that one that's just really awesome. You've got the Yam Crossroads, Yam. And then in the 11:11 Fox show you've got the Mike Zwikapog and then the Yamar, Fluffhead, Antelope. All standouts. So I just think that's those three shows I think stand alone really well together and would be a really cool box set.

[RJ]

Yeah, I really like the beginning of the 11:11 show. Like the cars, trucks, buses into Mike's into Day in a really just way.

[Megan]

To start a show.

[RJ]

That and that Bowie is really good. It's actually not jam charted if you can believe it.

[Megan]

But it's a. Oh my gosh, you're right. I didn't even realize that.

[RJ]

Really good version. There's like, there's a lot of tension and it feels like there's like full band communication. It's a really awesome, awesome show. I agree about the box set. I think a couple people have said that in the comments too. Maybe that's like our. Yeah. Oh, our. Our. One of our viewers on YouTube says Shapiro said that there were issues with their recordings so unlikely to be released as a box set. That's too bad.

[Megan]

Oh, that's really.

[Brian]

I didn't realize that. But that is that because that. That's on my list of like live Fish releases. I think that's a master class in set listing. I think it shows the. The best aspects of the set listing on this tour across those like three very diverse shows. Some jams here and there, but just a lot of energy. Like this was a band that could just. I think like 12 is a really great example of a show that while it doesn't 100% work overall. The first set opens with Chalk Dust, Harryhood, Wilson Maze. Hahaha. Suspicious Minds hold your head up like say what you will like that is a opening 40 minutes of a show that you are just like, you know, and like doing it in the spectrum of all places. Yeah, that's. That's a really good call.

[RJ]

Brian. What? What do you have a show that you listen to this time, going through it and, and stuck out to you.

[Brian]

So I'll. I'll be completely honest. This is the one tour that we covered this entire series that did not really surprise me. I feel very, you know, like a religious person with fundamentalist beliefs about 1995. I've accepted it. I've been baptized. This is what I believe. There's gonna have to like crucify me to get these. These, you know, me to change my mind, which I won't because I'll suffer through it all, you know, be Crying out in the well 1214 plays like Trey, why have you forsaken me?

[RJ]

I just want you to know that people can, people can, can leave cults, you know, it happens, you know, and then they go on to have beautiful lives after. I'm just saying, you know, you don't. Don't feel like you're stuck. Stuck.

[Brian]

Hey man, I got one super unpopular belief that 2003 is one of the best years of Fish and one really popular belief that 495 is, yeah, you.

[Megan]

Gotta have the best tour.

[Brian]

Like I have a balance here. But the show I do want to shout out, it's been mentioned once or twice in the comments. Really glad to see that. It's 101195 from Compton Terrace Amphitheater, a show Megan was at which I'm pretty jealous of. I won't say anything more about her experience of that show, but she was there. This show, for me, this is one of those. If they dropped it on live, Fish would get either very little attention across socials or a lot of like, huh. Because if you look at the set list, I would totally agree. It's first set of Stash Old on Place Cavern, Divided sky if I Could Fog that Surrounds Acoustic Army Julius Sample in a Jar. It is one of those shows where the magic really comes out of the plane. And it's a Wednesday night. The band, you know, went from. I'm just looking at the tour routing. They played Portland, Vancouver, Spokane, Missoula in a three day stretch and then they drove from Missoula down to Chandler, Arizona and from here they're going to do Arizona, Fort Worth, Austin, New Orleans over the next week and then they're going to arrive in the Midwest and this show is kind of stuck in that period and it's just a little bit weird, It's a little bit left of center. The stash that opens the show is really cool. The first set doesn't have the greatest flow, but somehow really works as just like a really, really solid set one. The second set though is where the magic set set Possum, Gin mound, Mike Song McGrup, We Kapog, which is unfinished Into Llama Susie Greenberg, which is unfinished in a Crossroads, hello My Baby, A Day in the Life and then a Chalk Dust encore. This works in a way of like if you've never heard this show, it tends to put the pieces together between the weirdness of this band over the summer and the more connected, hyper groove driven jamming that's going to happen in November and December. I think it's a really critical show overall. And like, a lot of Fish shows, a lot of great Fish shows is just an example of, like, off the beaten path, man. This band can throw down stuff that, like, probably convinced, I don't know, 150 people to continue following this band along while a bunch of other people just randomly saw their only Fish show ever and then moved on with their lives.

[Megan]

Yeah, this show, it's so funny because I always forget I was at the show because I have no memory of the show, which is so strange because I have the most vivid memories of the three California shows. I can tell you where I was in the venue. I can tell you what I did in the parking lot before. I can tell you what I did after. I can tell you where I slept some of those nights. And this show in Compton Terrace, I was talking to my friend who I went with, and I was like, what happened? Like, who do you. He's like, oh, we had a great time. I have zero memories of it. And I'm sad because I can't speak beautifully about it like RJ did last week about the fall 97 shows. I can't, you know, explain how it felt to be in the room for this, but it was a 90 minute drive up from my school at University of Arizona in Tucson, and apparently I was there, but I have no memory of it. But listening back, it's such a fantastic show and I think you spoke about it beautifully, Brian. But the mics, like, this is. It grinds down and gets to that really swirling psychedelic shit. That's so good. And to have the McRupt in the middle of that is just. I love how they're playing with Mike Screws in this tour, just putting the most random shit in the middle of it. And sometimes it hits so good and is so, like, interesting. And yeah, this show is great. And that stash in the beginning is. Is definitely worth hearing.

[RJ]

Yeah, there's some. Yeah, I don't have anything to add. You guys all kind of covered it. What else. What else do we want to shout out? There's more shows.

[Brian]

Well, we haven't really talked at all about December.

[Megan]

Yeah, we need to go there.

[Brian]

It's probably by design because it is like, what do you say about December at this point? Like, it's. I guess my question to you guys is, as in listening through this and in developing your. Some would say. Blasphemous. I wouldn't. Controversial opinions.

[RJ]

Some people might say.

[Megan]

Some might.

[Brian]

Some might say about this tour. Did December sound as good to you guys? Listening through this. What. What are your thoughts on coming to the end of this overall journey that we're on of that three week stretch from Hershey through Lake Placid?

[RJ]

I mean, I'll just say from the. Just on the first show of December, the Hershey show, which like, you know, there's some funny banter and all that, but the mics has this really interesting jam that is still like. There's still a percussion jam, but it's more interesting. I feel like they kind of started to figure out it out in December and how to like didn't have to betray on the wood blocks for like six minutes. It was they. And like the staccato kind of jamming in there that you hear throughout, you know, up until Binghamton kind of in the like. So I feel like they start refining that sound a little bit and that's a really. That's a great jam. That. That one jam is like really representative of, of kind of the. If you listen to a mics from like late September and then this one there, it's. It's pretty different approach.

[Brian]

That's. That's the sound of fall 95 in my brain that. That J. Yeah. And the fact that it finds itself perfectly into WEKA Pog. Even though we can Pogs played out of key. It's just big chords, colorful candy coated riffs, huge bombastic drums. Like, it just. It just sounds massive and it sounds like a band that is just like realizing in real time we are the greatest band in the. In the universe.

[Megan]

Yeah. And I love the Wilson in that set. It's just they're so arrogant and powerful when they play Wilson in 95. Like this is what I always think of in my head when I think of Wilson is like a 95 Wilson where it's just like we fucking own this shit. Like, it's so great and this, this whole show is so awesome. And I will say, Brian. Yes. When I listened to December, I was constantly kind of awestruck at the power and the flow that they really locked into. I think of like the 127 Niagara Falls show. Like they're just so locked in right away. It's so tight and has this fast first set with this like emotional punch of slave right in the middle, which somehow works. And then set two, you've got this split open and melt Reba. And then this dream of a fourth quarter with like this watery, beautifully gorgeous Slave. And just a absolutely note for note, perfect Coyote. I think there's just. I think they lock in in December in A way that's just. Maybe you can only do when you've played 100 shows in a row, like they have at this point. But there's just. There's a real dominant feeling to the. The. The December shows. Absolutely.

[Brian]

Yeah. Do you guys think that this tour would. Because when I was going through this, I kept. I kept noting shows I think you can't miss. And there's a lot. And then Live Fish release recommendations and there's a lot. And maybe that's my bias, but I think that this tour is almost underserved in terms of official releases based on the quality of music. Do you guys think if there was more out there. I don't know, would the Gaslighting be more accurate and better received or, like. Because it is kind of crazy to me. Like, there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 December shows I think could still be released and like six shows prior to that in some form that I think has. Has a justification to be released. Like, do you guys think that they're. We're underserved. Fall 95, in a sense.

[RJ]

It's interesting. I. I do think part of the. I don't think anything would change in terms of the fan base and all that, but I do think that some of these audience recordings are not great, you know.

[Megan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[RJ]

I feel like I wish we had. I wish we had more. Yeah, I wish we had more of. Of all recordings. Like, the fact that there hasn't been like a live bait Release of the 1122 for free.

[Megan]

Thank you. That that jam is so unbelievable. And to not hear it on archival release is really hard. There's not that much Live bait at all.

[RJ]

Or the Down With Disease from Providence, which Brian mentioned. Those things not being released as soundboard, just even as individual pieces is kind of crazy to me. But they got the right ones. In terms of the official releases, I think the official releases kind of. Mark. Mark. The various high points of the tour in different ways. The 12:2:1 I think is just because, like that Tweezer is awesome.

[Megan]

But yeah, yeah, there's a couple like that. But I think like the Albany show from 129 is probably the one that hasn't been released. That should be. That's like the best, highest rated show. But I also think there's shows like that 1022 champagne show that. That are just so good and are a different kind of taste than some of the other stuff. Like a lot of the ones that they have from December are very similar in the sense of, like, how great they are. Like the level is so high. It'd just be interesting to have some earlier stuff. And I do think that there's, there's less of a breadth of this tour. Like it doesn't span as much. Just kind of interesting. But it's also such a huge tour. But I do think that being that it's such a, such a highly rated tour, you would think there'd be more.

[Brian]

Yeah, I mean I think we, we have some like 121 being released. 127 being released. I think that 127 being released was pretty surprising because I think that if it wasn't would be a fairly underrated show from the overall tour. But yeah, ZV dude said like we have 11, 1495 and we have 1130, 95. I would throw 1118 and 1121 in there. The Fox sounds like that's never going to happen. But like that, that box set I think should be released I think in 12 in December. 125 absolutely needs to be released. From Amherst, Massachusetts. If nothing else. The Bathtub Gin and the Keyboard army and the Harry Hood, which is probably my favorite Harry Hood that's ever been played. The song that they're is just is. Is. And the back end, when it goes down, it comes back up almost like the Alive One version does. It's just a really, really great, great show. I think 12:11 with the dog log sort of gimmickry at the start and a 23 minute really wild David Bowie in the second set. 12:15, I'm a huge fan of and 12:17 from a tour finale standpoint, definitely get. You know the. The show starts with this run similar to what I was talking about with the some show that we already talked about here. Set one is My Friend, My Friend, Poor Heart, A Day in the Life Run like an Antelope. You get a pause. Mango Song tube stash, lizards, Chalk dust. Like that's a great. Just high energy, high octane set one. And then in set two you get a really, really good hairy hood midway through the set. And then we end with a 19 minute tweezer that segues directly into Tweezer Reprise. It's just such a. It's you. You taught. You said arrogant. Like I think that that's so like this is a band that just knows what they're capable of at this point in time. And they're ending this tour not on. Oh my God. Thank God. We've reached the finish line. We get two weeks off before the holidays. It's like, no, no, we could keep going straight through to 1228. If you want. Wanted.

[Megan]

Totally. That tweezer too, from 1217. It's so fucking good. It rips. It's so intense and so driving. And then Paige's solo at the end is so patient and sophisticated. It's absolutely. It's just so special. It's such a special moment. But I do think we have to talk about the best show on this tour.

[Brian]

Go on.

[Megan]

We have to talk about Binghamton. I mean, this is like. This is the set. Obviously, I've heard this a bunch of times, you know, Live Fish, Volume one. But there's the flow that they get into in the second set. I don't know if I've heard anything like it ever. I mean, it's. It's just so absolutely perfect. And this Haley's. If it's not my favorite jam of the tour, it's two or three. Like, this is unbelievable, the way they play with dynamics in this jam. It's so relentless. It's scary. It's incredible. It's dramatic. It's pounding. And the way it careens into NICU is like when they used to play NICU in 95. There was something so creepy about it and so unsettling in a way that I kind of miss. I don't think they tap into that as much anymore when they play that song. But it's so perfect here. And then you have that paid solo from Paige that's so, so beautiful. And then it goes into slave, and it's just, like, top form, scenery chewing, Slave. Like, just absolutely perfect. I think this set, it's just. It's magic.

[Brian]

They do this. As Evie dude said, going back into the Halley's lick in NICU is maybe my favorite fish moment ever. Like, yes, this is not the most exploratory stuff, but this is, like, on a dime. Can we connect and can we play with dynamics? And what can we do in this moment with this, like, idea that we have here? It's just. It's. It's played so fast, but also patiently. And there's this musical communication back and forth with each other without any time wasted. It's just. Here's the riff. We're going, okay, now we're gonna bring it down. Now we're gonna bring it back up. Now we're gonna bring it down. Now we're going to a new song. Now we're going to bring back that jam. Like, it's just. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Megan]

God, this set is so good. It's insane. It. It's. Yes. I think it's Definitely one of the best second sets they've ever played. Yeah, for sure.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Can we do a shout out as well to short hair, big beard Trey? That is a look I would totally, totally welcome back.

[Megan]

Like, it's so crazy how much he changed during that tour. It was so weird to see, like.

[Brian]

Think about how long his hair was in fall. 94. And like, that, like. Like, the, like, red hair just, like, hanging over his face is like, the. You know, the way that we always, like, kind of see him in our heads, but, like, this is, like, proper haircut, but gigantic cross. Cross coast tour, dude. You know, it's just the best. The beard is amazing.

[RJ]

What else I have to say about this tour, guys? What else? What. What's another show we need to talk about or. Or if anyone's really, like, ready to deliver their final.

[Megan]

I think we could deliver. But I will. I will just want to say thinking about that Trey just sang Mitsky this week. It's so. Can you imagine, like, telling, like, mid-90s Trey that he's gonna sing, like, Mitski, like, this, like, romantic indie singer, that he's gonna, like, sing her song on stage? I just. It's just, like, the full circle Trey thing is just hilarious. Like, he's just obsessed with him. But that I do think that's just incredible to think about his journey as a musician, thinking about who he was then and who he is now.

[RJ]

Yeah. His journey with his hair and his music, both fascinating and his.

[Megan]

And his rise to, like, cultural acceptance. Like, he's going to be, like, this elder statesman of musicianship in New York City in this, like, way that, like, it's just fucking funny.

[RJ]

Yeah.

[Megan]

And deserved.

[RJ]

Go ahead, Brian.

[Brian]

No, I was just gonna agree with that. I was just gonna shout out Evie dude, who is shouting out the 12, 8. 95. Tweezer. Kung tweezer. Great, great point Meg made earlier of inserting songs like Kong and Catapult into setlist to spice things up, but also could have done it in a Mondegreen. A Tweezer. Kung Tweezer would have been very welcome at Mondegreen, though. Also, like, this is a jam that does showcase the use of space to negate everything you guys said earlier in this episode.

[Megan]

I guess Catal is kind of spacey. Damn it.

[RJ]

We said it. I said it got, like, spacer toward the end. I think that's fair.

[Megan]

I said that. I said in December it was spacey.

[Brian]

I. I'm just. You know, one of the beautiful things about this brain is the bitterness that he holds on to and. And. And the grudges, that beautiful, bitter brain, even. Even for people that he loves.

[RJ]

So, my God. All right, what's everybody's final take on this tour?

[Megan]

I mean, I think Brian should have the final say, so I'll go first. Is that okay, Brian?

[Brian]

I'm totally fine with that.

[Megan]

I mean, I think December 1995 is legendary for a reason. It's the last time Fish will be in its first incarnation, and I think that's really important. And I think you're totally right, Brian, that nothing that happens after this wouldn't have happened without this. And I don't just mean that in, like, an obvious way, but, like, what they were pursuing and the choices they made, artistically determined, where they went from here, and the fact that they were doing that while stepping onto the big stage for the first time, I think it's incredible. And this ability of the band to peak and also look toward the future is really the biggest takeaway I have from this whole entire series, is that this band stands apart from. From any other band. And it's why they're my favorite band in the whole world of all time, because they're always looking to evolve, even when they're playing at their absolute peak. And I think this is a moment of purity for them and it's absolute peak of their powers. I don't know. Maybe I've convinced myself. I can't tell.

[RJ]

I think when you get to the. The end of the tour, especially the 1214 show, I mean, the 1214 show is undoubtedly like a peak Fish moment. And it was totally not planned, you know, based on. Based on my opinion of listening. They're just at this. At this telepathic moment where they're. They're doing things they'd never done before. They, like, they're. I mean, it just. It's. It's pretty incredible to hear. And it. And it. It was like this whole entire tour that built up to, you know, these December shows that are just, like, we've talked about, really incredible. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. In the context of the whole career, like. Yeah. I mean, this is. This is like, you guys have both said enough. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what else to say. Great tour.

[Megan]

Really good, solid, great tour. I mean, I want to hear Brian's final takeaway.

[Brian]

I mean, I've scouted this throughout the episode, but I'll just. I'll condense it all into what I wrote down my thesis here. Is that this is what 12 years of work and dedication and friendship and belief in yourself looks like. Had Fish broken up after this tour, we'd still be talking about them to this day. It was so great that the band had to reinvent themselves to keep going. While they'll never fully sound this big and bombastic and confident and youthfully joyful again, reaching these heights has pushed Fish through their future great periods where everything connects. And they sound like an eight armed monster capable of curing disease through music. I'll also just point back, like my. My takeaway from fall 97, and I think that this is a critical kind of point of comparison, is that fall 97 is U2's octoon, baby radioheads, kid A, it's Sergeant Peppers, it's Pet Sounds. It is when a band. Fall 97 is when a band has reached a point of perfection and has to change. And can they change? That's the big question. Is that possible? And they did it, and it was an incredibly successful thing. But you have to think about the Joshua Tree, okay? Computer, Rubber Sole, Revolver, all the great Beach Boys songs and singles that came out of the early 1960s. For Dylan, it's that kind of like going electric versus the great protest songs that he wrote in the early 60s. That that creation is perfect for a reason and is what drew so many people into that. Those bands and this sound is what drew Fish into her fans, into being Fish fans. And I think that everything that they do there is a little morsel of. Of 1995 in there of the fact that this band worked from nothing to play the most famous arena in the world on the biggest party night of the year. And I guess, you know, the debate always then would come down to is the reinvention more important than the initial peak? My view is that the initial peak is just slightly higher. But, you know, there's a reason why fall 97 is kind of the default. I don't know what to listen to. Press play on 12, 6. 97.

[RJ]

Yeah. Yeah, well said, Brian. Yeah, Brian, this like, like fall 95, this project was the peak of years of friendship and hard work and trust.

[Brian]

Trust, patience.

[RJ]

Patience. And many other things. So we've reached the end, but we're going to. Hopefully we're going to talk about this project hopefully next week.

[Megan]

Yeah, we will find a tent.

[Brian]

If there are questions that any of you have that you'd like to have us answer, leave voicemails, because we will. I think we could spend a good deal of next week responding to voicemails. But we have some questions kicking around our heads that we're going to ask of each other. Kind of just do a big reflection on what this overall project meant and what we think about fish going forward. And next year, we'll be ranking our 50 to 26 tours in fish. No, I'm joking.

[Megan]

Oh, my God. I just had, like, a heart attack.

[RJ]

No.

[Megan]

Yeah. If people have questions about the process and how we work through this, I'd love to hear them. This. This has been a labor of love for sure. And I'm excited to reflect on it.

[RJ]

Yeah, same. Okay. And that's going to be our next episode. And then we're going to recap msg. And then after that, we don't know we're going to do. But we're going to do something. This is a good question for next week. It's going to be summer.

[Megan]

Yeah, it's going to be. We're going to talk about that for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[RJ]

Cool. All right. Okay. Thank you guys so much for listening and watching throughout the series. It was only 25 episodes. It feels like it was 100, but we.

[Megan]

It feels like it was fall 95.

[RJ]

Does feel like fall 95. We started in September, but here we are.

[Brian]

It's.

[RJ]

It's Binghamton night. It's Binghamton set two right here.

[Megan]

We did it.

[RJ]

Where else would we want to be, guys? All right, we're gonna see. We're gonna see you all next week. Thanks, everybody.

[Megan]

Thanks, everyone.

[Brian]

Peace out.

[Evie]

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[Megan]

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[Brian]

He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man.

[Megan]

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[Brian]

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[Megan]

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[RJ]

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[Brian]

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[RJ]

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[Brian]

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[Megan]

To be.

[RJ]

Hey, this is Dewey Halpus, host of.

[Brian]

Pure Pleasure on the Sound Talent Media podcast network.

[RJ]

Join me each week as I explore.

[Brian]

Another long form conversation with one of your favorite musicians, actors, comedians or creatives. From Chino Moreno of the Deftones, John Gourley of Portugal, the man to Fat Mike from no Effects, and Ian Mackay.

[RJ]

From Fugazi and Minor Threat.

[Brian]

We go all over the map. From Fallout Boy to Slayer, Pure pleasure has it all. Check us out now on SoundTalent Media.