Top 25 Tours Breakdown

Summary

Helping Friendly Podcast Episode Summary: "Top 25 Tours Breakdown"

Release Date: December 24, 2024
Host/Author: Osiris Media

The "Helping Friendly Podcast" (HFPod) episode titled "Top 25 Tours Breakdown" offers an in-depth recap of the podcast's ambitious project to rank Phish's top 25 tours. Hosted by a panel of passionate Phish aficionados—referred to as Osiris, Megan, and Brian—the episode navigates through listener feedback, internal debates, and reflections on the band's evolving legacy.

---

1. Introduction and Recap of the Top 25 Tours Series

[01:18] Host C:
"We're being merry ourselves. It's recap time. We're going to recap our recaps. So this is the rewatchables of our top 25 tours."

The hosts kick off the episode by celebrating the completion of their 25-episode series, which meticulously analyzed Phish's extensive touring history. Emphasizing the project's meta nature, they express enthusiasm about revisiting their previous discussions to uncover new insights and perspectives.

---

2. Listener Engagement and Voicemails

[02:22] Host C:
"I was at Northampton, Massachusetts, on Thursday night. The number of HF POD fans who were there was incredible..."

The episode highlights the strong community engagement, recounting experiences from live events where fans expressed their appreciation. The hosts underscore the importance of listener feedback in shaping their content.

[03:34] Voicemail from a Listener:
"The best tour is the next tour. It will be the correct answer until Coventry 2.0."
(16:42)

A prominent voicemail suggests exploring "most important Phish shows" rather than solely focusing on the best tours. The listener proposes examining pivotal performances that significantly impacted the band's history.

---

3. Debating the Top 25: Potential Additions and Omissions

[10:08] Host B:
"Two definitely should have somehow found their way in there are summer 2012 and summer 2021."

The hosts delve into specific tours that narrowly missed the top 25 cut. They discuss the historical significance of tours like Summer 2012, which marked a pivotal evolution in Phish's sound, and Summer 2021, emerging post-pandemic with a blend of seriousness and excellence.

[13:19] Host A:
"Europe Winter Tour 97... workshopping this new sound is some of the first early uses of, like, deep ambience."

Megan advocates for the inclusion of the Europe Winter Tour 1997, emphasizing its role in the band's sonic exploration and development of new musical dimensions.

[19:17] Host C:
"I have some thoughts, Meg."
(19:23)

The discussion shifts to tours that arguably should not have been included. Megan and Brian express reservations about the Spring 2023 Tour, citing inconsistent performances and lower fan ratings, while acknowledging its historical context.

---

4. In-Depth Tour Analyses and Rankings

[25:47] Host B:
"Fall 98... really nice and pleasant."
(14:38)

The hosts critique the Fall 1998 Tour, appreciating its pleasant vibe but questioning its ranking within their list. They consider whether its consistency and overall feel warranted a higher placement or possible exclusion.

[33:03] Host C:
"I would put fall 94 first, fall 97 second, fall 95 third..."
(55:11)

Megan proposes her personal top five tours, challenging the group's rankings by prioritizing Fall 1997 and Fall 1994 tours over others. This sparks a lively debate about personal biases, historical impact, and musical innovation.

[41:24] Host B:
"They're always looking towards what's next, even when they're peaking within a specific style."
(72:48)

Brian emphasizes Phish's relentless pursuit of evolution, praising tours like Fall 1997 and Summer 2024 for their creative risk-taking and consistent push for innovation, which he believes solidify their legacy.

---

5. Reflections on Phish’s Evolution and the Podcast Project

[65:33] Host A:
"Their constant drive for reinvention and evolution is something that has inspired me so much."
(65:33)

The hosts share personal journeys and revelations gained from the project. They reflect on how Phish's continual reinvention keeps fans engaged and inspires deeper appreciation for the band's musical prowess.

[72:03] Host C:
"Each tour was like a monolith... but when you look at it the way we did, you see these changes."
(70:13)

Chris discusses the nuanced transformations within each tour, noting how successive performances reveal the band's dynamic evolution and how their sound matures over time.

---

6. Future Plans and Closing Remarks

[75:50] Host B:
"We're going to do some random fun shows, shows that we've never discussed before..."
(75:50)

Looking ahead, the podcast team outlines their upcoming endeavors, including recapping recent MSG shows, exploring fan-recommended performances, and brainstorming new series concepts for 2025. They express excitement about continuing to delve into Phish's rich touring history.

[78:15] Host A:
"Come say hi if you see us at MSG."
(77:59)

In their closing statements, the hosts invite listeners to engage further by attending live events and participating in future discussions. They reiterate their gratitude for the community's support and enthusiasm throughout the Top 25 Tours series.

---

Notable Quotes

• Host C [01:18]:
  "We're being merry ourselves. It's recap time. We're going to recap our recaps."

• Listener Voicemail [16:42]:
  "The best tour is the next tour. It will be the correct answer until Coventry 2.0."

• Host B [41:24]:
  "They're always looking towards what's next, even when they're peaking within a specific style."

• Host A [65:33]:
  "Their constant drive for reinvention and evolution is something that has inspired me so much."

---

Conclusion

"Top 25 Tours Breakdown" serves as both a celebration and a critical examination of Phish's illustrious touring history. Through passionate discussions, listener interactions, and thoughtful debates, HFPod provides fans and newcomers alike with a comprehensive understanding of what makes each tour unique and significant. The episode not only honors Phish's legacy but also sets the stage for future explorations, ensuring that the band's dynamic journey remains a vibrant topic of conversation within the fan community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Osiris.

[C]

Hey everybody. It's the holidays and it's a time to be grateful and merry. And that's why we're here. We're here to be grateful and merry for you and for. For us. We're being marry ourselves. It's recap time. We're going to recap our recaps. So this is. This is the rewatchables of our top 25 tours. This is our. It's very meta. We're recapping our recaps and I hope everybody enjoys it. This is. It's not quite as nerdy as the draft, but it's going to get there. Brian, Megan, how you guys doing?

[B]

Arguably nerdier. Maybe, you know, like, we could just like let it be. But we have to have one final word on this project we spent the last 12 months working on. So I think that there's a bit more nerdism, but I'm into it either way.

[C]

Yeah, I feel like there's.

[A]

We could, but I think there's an element of the draft that's like a little bit cool because it's competitive. But this is just. We did this huge project. It took all this time. We said a ton, and now we want to talk about what we would have said differently. Or maybe you just say it's just, it's. It's a way for us to get another. Another final word. It's pretty nerdy.

[C]

We gotta get. We gotta like, recap ourselves, so we'll see how this goes. I just want to say first that I was at in Northampton, Massachusetts, on. On Thursday night. And the number of HF POD fans who were there was incredible, and the crowd itself was incredible. But I had so many people come up to me and thank. Thank me and. And you two both for this show. And so it was nice to see everybody in person. Many people talked about their. Their favorite episodes of this top 25 series. A couple people talked about where they were, and some people are catching up. So it's just. It's great to have to have people listening and tuning in. And the Reprise show was awesome. So it was fun.

[B]

Yeah, they sounded good. Everything you sent sounded great.

[C]

They're great. They're. It's. It's just. It's just starting, as they say. Guys, can we start with one voicemail real quick? We only. We got two important ones to get to this week. Can we. Can we start with one just to kind of set the stage here?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is that all right?

[B]

Do it, do it.

[C]

What's happening to it? All right.

[B]

I really appreciate the recap of 25.

[C]

One idea for the future might be maybe most important fish shows. I don't know how you put those together. I just know for me, something like a 1231, 93 and you know, you.

[B]

Guys have probably list tons and tons.

[C]

More, but might be interesting to just doesn't have to be the best shows, the most important shows, why they were so important to fish history.

[A]

Oh, love that.

[B]

This guy. This guy's got an idea.

[A]

I love that. I also like that it's shows and not tours. This is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, this is. That's a good idea. I'm just gonna say that, you know, some ink has been spilled about ideas like that in that realm, so that's a good idea.

[C]

Yep, yep, yep. There's another. There's a couple more suggestions coming later, but we are going to. You know, we need to thank you for all the free entertainment. Look at this. We got people. We got. This is just so great. Everyone's so. See, I told you guys. It's about celebration and being grateful and merry.

[A]

So, you know, you know, there's another way that people can be merry is come to our happy hour.

[C]

Ah, great idea.

[A]

Yeah. You can come to our happy hour on the 29th pre show. I'm going to be there. RJ is going to be there. Lots of other Osiris family people will be there, I'm sure. And we're going to be hanging out at the Irish exit, which is in the Moynihan train Hall, right. Right across the street from msg. So come say hi. And, yeah, we'd love to hear from you and tell RJ why he lost the draft.

[C]

I don't think you should do that. But I will say that this is the. The Irish exit in Moynihan Train Hall. It's the only bar I've ever been to so far. And I might just be not very smart, but it's the only bar that I've been to that has an NA beer on tap. And having, like, a draft is pretty cool. Yeah, Yeah, I found that out last time I went there. It was. It was great.

[B]

Brian, when they have a topo on draft. All right.

[A]

Okay, Seriously.

[C]

Brian's gonna make his way to New York City in March for some shows that are not yet to be announced. Or yet to be announced. I mean, not yet. It's happening, right, Brian?

[B]

It's happening. It's happening. I just threw something in our private chat about an idea about that. So, you know, we got. Things are percolating. We're done with this series. We're on to the next one. You know, the best advice I ever received when finishing a prior creative project is don't get sappy and reflective. Just move on to the next thing. This is just something that someone may mention at your funeral. Just keep going.

[C]

I think that's totally fair. I think that's where we are. All right, so we did 25 episodes. We covered 25 fish tours. Do you guys have a guess about the total number of shows that we covered in those 25 tours?

[A]

It's got to be really high here.

[B]

Because he can do the math. I'm gonna guess somewhere in the realm of 450.

[A]

I was gonna say, like 350.

[C]

660.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

Which means that the 393 doesn't fuck around.

[C]

So the three of us, between the three of us, we have at least looked at the set list of, if not listened to, 660 different shows this year. Isn't that crazy?

[A]

Wow. I mean, that definitely explains the oversaturatedness. I feel madness.

[C]

The madness.

[B]

A lot. It's a lot.

[A]

That's a lot.

[C]

Journey.

[B]

But it was a total labor of love. I mean, think about this. Band has been in all of our lives for you guys since you were teenagers. For me, since I was in the womb, probably. They've been in our lives forever, and yet still at this point, we had it in us to explore them in even further depth and go back and relisten to things and listen with new perspective. It's just. It's a very, very cool thing. Very happy to have been a part of it.

[A]

Yeah. I was trying to explain that to my dad last night. We were hanging out and I was explaining the series to him. And you know how parents, like, they. They listened, like, selectively to what you say. And so I was, like, trying to explain this. This process in a series, and I was explaining that this is why this band has meant so much to me, is because there's still so much to uncover. Like, I feel like I still have things to learn about this band. Even after 40 for 40 and the top tour series. That's just. This band is a Pandora's box. It's incredible.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah. Well, we have some topics to talk about. I have one voicemail that I'm going to play at the appropriate time, but 660 shows, 25 tours, 25 episodes. Let's just start with. With a. With this top question. Did your. Megan, our YouTube viewer, wants to know if your dad thinking having fallen 95 or fall 97 was crazy? That would be awesome.

[A]

That would be amazing. My dad doesn't have an opinion on that because he's very ignorant about that, but he did have thoughts about me and my feelings about Goose and where they are right now. So. And in relation to Fish and their journey. So that was an interesting part of our conversation that he knew more about.

[B]

Do you feel attacked in any way or did he agree with you? Because I've had this conversation with a couple people and it's.

[A]

Well, you know, what I was explaining to him was like, that's why I feel like it's a little unfair of what I'm thinking about Goose right now because I'm putting this pressure of, are you going to be this next thing? That is something I can think about for the next 30 years in depth. And my dad was saying, well, how long have they been a band and how long has Fish been a band? So it's very unfair to compare those in any way. And I thought that was helpful perspective.

[C]

If only you had. If only you had a friend who would, like, say that consistently over and over again, you know, but it's different.

[A]

When it hits from your dad, you know?

[C]

Yeah, true, true.

[B]

I think they're fine.

[C]

They are fun.

[B]

See, very wise people have told me they're very fun band.

[C]

People are saying, all right, guys, let's get. Let's. Guys, let's go. Is there any tour that we did not put in the top 25 that you think should have been in the top 25.

[B]

I think this is a very good question. I think that there are, from what I can tell, there are four choices that could have worked. Two definitely. I think there's an argument to have been made to get to go in there. Two that I think we could make a wraparound argument for a variety of reasons. The two that I think definitely should have somehow found their way in there are summer 2012 and summer 2021. And this is not talking summer 2024, because we made this list deliberately at the end of 2023. So we did not count anything from 2024 in this. That'll be for 10 years from now when we need to rehash this in 2034. The other two tours, well, and I guess I'll just say those two tours, 2012, summer 2012, summer 2021, I think, had really big impacts on fish as they were evolving at a critical point. Summer 2012 coming out of a kind of lackluster New Year's Eve in 2011, a bit of an up and down 2011, a lot of questions around what is 3.0 actually going to really be? Is it just going to be kind of a rehash of fun things without ever really getting there? And summer 2012, a lot of rarities, some really great jamming, and then it ends with Dick's, the Dick shows that really kind of pivoted them in the future. And then summer 21 coming out of the Pandemic. I think everyone expected it to just be a fun hang. And it turned out to be this, like, dead serious tour that only gets overshadowed by fall 21, because fall 21 was so excellent. Very quickly, the other two tours I would vouch for are fall 2000, because I think it holds up a lot stronger than the reputation. And it being the last tour before the hiatus, there's a lot of really interesting emotional stuff that happens on that tour. And fall 2010 would be my slight, maybe, because in the moment, that was the tour they were doing. All these tiny indoor hockey arenas in the Northeast leading up to Halloween. It was a very richly nostalgic tour. Shows like Augusta, Maine, Utica, one of the Knights of Amherst, the Manchester, New Hampshire show, 10:30. There were a lot of these weird segues, interesting jams. There was that high, those hijinks, the gimmicks that brought you back to 94, 95 fish. That was really, really important in the moment. Maybe it hasn't aged as well, but I'll pause there. Those are my four tours I think could have Gotten in.

[A]

Yeah. I felt that summer 21 had a really good argument. I totally agree with your argument there. The only other one that I was thinking about, and I feel like it's definitely on the fence for me, but Europe Winter Tour 97, obviously they weren't at their new sound yet, but they were workshopping this new sound, and this is them trying to find that new sound and writing a bunch of new music and playing small venues and trying to discover what this new sound can be. And I think contextually, it's just really important to, like, where they're going. And also it's some of the first early uses of, like, deep ambience. And I think that's just important for their sound.

[B]

That Amsterdam show alone, like, holy crap.

[C]

Yeah. And a lot of debuts and a lot of, like, stage setting for the rest of the year. Well, the. The highest ranked by the fans that didn't make the top 25 were Night Fall 99, which was ranked 14th by fans, but we did not. We did not respect that. 97 winter.

[A]

You think people thought that meant winter too? Because that. I don't. I don't understand that ranking.

[B]

I think it had to. Or people just really like the 914.99 bag.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There. I don't. I mean, I don't go back to that tour a lot, but I think it's pretty. I think between the 914 show, like, the 929 show, the. I mean, people like this shows later on in October. I. I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it need. I don't think it should be on there, but I think. Yeah, I think 21 is. Is a good call. I mean, in addition to all the stuff you guys said, there's like, the way that that tour unfolded musically. Summer 21 with the. The Shoreline show and, you know, just they're like the. The number of historic jams that came out of that tour is, like, pretty incredible, along with all the other points that you guys made. So I feel like that could have. Could have been up there.

[B]

We should also note that the Fans asked for 91 summer Giant Country Horns Tour. That's what they ranked as. Number 24. We did not include that. I think that we opted for spring 92 and spring 93 in that setting, seeing those as potentially a little bit more important in terms of their next steps. The 91 giant country horns Tour, though, that's a ton of fun. I think the fans were right to at least acknowledge that that's. There's some great stuff there.

[C]

Yeah. But I think that's more symbolic, right? Like, because, you know, you get.

[B]

That's how I feel.

[C]

Those shows. It's a lot of. It's like a lot of repetition. It's kind of the same show.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's like an alternate universe for Fish where like, you only need to listen to one show a tour to know how the tool sounded, you know?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You listen to like Townsend park and you're like, cool. That sounds awesome. I don't know if I need to do 10 more of these.

[A]

Well, to me it's not indicative of Fish because it sounds like one sit in for the entire tour and they're not a sit in band. And I just. I don't think it sounds like them developing their sound at all or evolving or. I don't know. I think it's. Yeah, it's like a giant sit in tour.

[B]

We should cover Fish as a sit in band when we get to summer 2024.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to talk about there. Okay. All right, so we covered that. We got it. We got into the. The stuff that didn't get ranked. Oh, you know what? Here, Brian, you know what? You know what we had this person say here, I'll just tell you. You know what? You know which tour we missed what we were told by a fan in this voicemail about.

[B]

Oh, perfect.

[C]

About what the. The actual best tour is. You ready? This is good. You guys are gonna love this.

[A]

Can't wait. Pins and needles over here.

[C]

Yep. Just. Just hold. Just be patient.

[B]

You're calling in with more complaints. I thought about 98 this time, but I really did enjoy your giant listening project of the top 25 tours, but unfortunately we got it wrong. Not 97 either. It's the simplest thing. It's always right. The best tour is the next tour. It will be the correct answer until Coventry 2.0. I do also have a suggestion for an upcoming draft. Maybe do a draft of run all of those great shows that you guys left out from the top 25 tours. New Year's Eve runs, destination shows like Vegas, Mexico, even Dick's. You could also include highlights from the past like the island tour. You can even get creative and just have three to four night capsules that were in larger tours. I love what you guys do. Thanks for including us. Bye.

[C]

So there it is.

[B]

That's a take.

[C]

Best tour is the next tour.

[A]

Until it's not.

[B]

Until it's. That's a take. I do think that the caller Has a really great suggestion about the runs. I think there's a. There's a world. He just gave me an idea for a draft that is slightly different from what he suggested. But I do think that we will be exploring runs at some point. We'll just say that at some point we will be exploring runs because. Yes. Yeah, four night runs and really, really good Fortnite Night Runs was kind of intentional and also ripe for deep, deep exploration. There's really nothing like being on a killer, isolated Fortnite run. Like, if MSG this year turns out to be epic and you're going on the 29th and the 28th was great. You got the 30th to look forward to. And there's rumors about New Year's Eve. Like, that is a four day silo in time that, like, just wrap that up for me and give it to me every year for Christmas.

[C]

What if you're only going to the.

[B]

29Th, then you should hope that they start pretty solid on the 28th and are ready to prove something on the 29th.

[A]

And it's the 25th anniversary of the Providence Bowie, so, you know, maybe you'll have good vibes.

[B]

You're gonna get someone's hopes up about David bowie going into 2025. Come on. All right, guys. We just don't even believe anymore.

[C]

Are there any tours that shouldn't have been on the list, shouldn't have been in the top 25?

[B]

This is going to be an interesting conversation. Do you guys have tours that should not have been on the list?

[C]

I have some thoughts, Meg.

[A]

I actually don't. I mean, I think looking at the list, I'm looking at what the fans rated really low. And I disagree with those. I really like.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I like our list. I don't know. I feel like our list is really, really comprehensive. I feel like we. The places where we differed from the fans were really contextual and thinking about the band's evolution and historical importance and so no, I feel good about this list.

[B]

I have rj, couple ideas.

[A]

You have a funny look on your face. What do you think?

[C]

I just. I still think that the 2023 spring is like a little bit of a stretch. It was ranked 32 by fans. It's barely a tour. There's eight shows. It was great to be able to listen to most of them because there were so few shows, but it was like barely. It barely made the list in terms of the number of shows. I think the shows are good. I mean, I think they're good. They're they're really good shows, and it was fun to go back to them. But I think in the totality of. Of what we looked at, I think, like, out of those eight shows, there's like, three out of the eight that are fine, and then there's, like, three that are, like, great, and then a couple in between. So, like, I guess that's. That's the one that I still. I don't. In looking at the whole top 25 list, I think that's the one that doesn't fit for me.

[B]

Would you take out Japan 2000 for the same reasons?

[C]

Maybe. Although that has just such, like, a higher percentage, I think, of shows. I was looking at the dotnet ratings earlier, and the. The spring 2023 shows are, like, not very highly ranked. Like, a lot of them are below four out of five on Fishnet, which I. Which I found surprising because I thought surprising. Yeah, there's some really interesting gems in. In a lot of. In a lot of those shows, but I just think it's, like, less powerful than the Japan. The Japan tour was, like, this really monumental thing. And I guess the 2023 Spring Tour felt a little bit, like, not that important in the. In the overall context of Fish.

[A]

I think for me, it felt important just because of it being their 30th year or 40th year. Excuse me. And them delivering at such a high level in terms of, like, diversity of jamming and pushing themselves and jamming. And. I don't know, it came after a year when I think maybe they needed to, like, 21 was so good. And I think people were curious about what 23 was going to be like.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I feel. I mean, I thought this was a very important tour. I. I definitely see some of the arguments you're making. I. I think. And maybe this is very personal bias, so I could be guilty of it. Similar to what you said, Meg. It was a pretty important tour for me. I had a lot of questions about Fish coming out of 2022, and I was starting to look around at a younger crop of bands, and, you know, I was like that guy in the meme, just, like, looking back and being like, what else is out there? And, uh, then they played the 2023 tour, and I was like, oh, don't ever doubt these guys again. And I don't think that they've missed a step since then. I have four possible choices. I want to. I want to say, similar to you, Meg, I think I'm proud of our list. I'm proud of what we ultimately did. I'm proud of the rationale, but I just want to pose these out there. There's no order here. Just this is what came to mind. Fall 2018. It's very good, Very, very cool sound on it. I think that there is a question of if you're thinking about late period fish and big transitions. The biggest transition happened in the Baker's Dozen. Fall 2018 was kind of a after effect of that really good jamming, but like, didn't really change the trajectory of the band. 2019 is a little bit of a strange reset year. Obviously. Covid happens and then where we're at from 2021 onwards feels like a totally different beast. So there's a part of me that like, we put that in there as a late stage 3.0 high point. That may not be an Alzheimer. What do you guys think about that before I say my next one?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm. Go ahead, rj.

[C]

Well, no, I was just. I'm a little more biased toward this tour only because, like, I saw the Hampton shows and then I saw. Do we see Halloween together, Brian, or the day we watched it first?

[B]

No, I didn't go to Vegas. I did the Southwest and then I came home and sent my wife out on tour and I took over the kids for Halloween.

[C]

Is that not the night? Is that not the tour where we went to the Disco Biscuit show after the 111 show?

[B]

Oh, sorry, sorry. That was 2018, not 21. Yes, yes, 2018. We saw 111 together and then we went to the Disco Biscuits. Sorry.

[C]

Yeah, no, no, I, I don't know. I don't know. I, I saw a lot of these shows. So I, I, I mean, I thought these shows were, I guess maybe I liked this, this tour, like more than the 23 tour.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. For me, I think this is the first like incredible non gimmick Tour since like 2015. If you take out the Baker's Dozen because it was such an isolated thing and I think they're. If you think about Cosmovox and like what that did to inspire them and the new music, is that definitely it? That's a model that they've continued to use. And I think it's important moving forward.

[B]

For them, I guess I don't know how Cosmovox has inspired them would be my.

[A]

The idea of it. I don't think the music has, but I think like the idea of creating music together that is specifically for one thing, you know, think about Sci Fi Soldiers and what that did for jamming, like, I think there's a. That process is really important for them.

[B]

That's a good point. That's. Yeah. Okay, I get that now. I love that you figured out a way to praise Sci Fi Soldiers and all.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

Maybe I'm putting you in that position.

[A]

Yeah. And what I will say is that I think in both of those instances, the music has not been the product that we've enjoyed. It's the jamming.

[B]

But I do think it's like, the creative process.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. I think inspires really good jamming. And. Yeah. I don't know. I think. I think there's an argument for both here. I could see it being taken out or kept in.

[B]

And I wanted to be clear. I don't. I'm not like. I think we did. Right. I just. When I was thinking about this, I was like, maybe that's the one. Later, the other three, and I'll go a little quicker. These are 90s tours because we have a lot from the 90s, and I was trying to think, like, where did we. Where do we not get critical enough to say this? But not this? And so the next one I would, obviously, that's obvious to me, is fall 98, which was ranked number seven by the fans. It was ranked number 15 by us. And when I listened through this tour, it was the one tour of this entire series where I was just like, there's good jams. There's some good shows. There's some really big shows up front. But overall, it really feels like they're kind of treading water, and it doesn't feel like they're trying to find a new sound. It sounds a little tired. It really hinted to me at where they were going to go into the hiatus and then the 2.0 era and all the negativity swirling around that era. It was the one tour where I listened this entire series and didn't find myself necessarily more inspired than I did on another tour that I already had, like, preconceived notions on. What do you guys think about that?

[C]

I think. I mean, I think, like, the Hampton shows, which I was at, you know, which are, like, so famous, are, like, not. They're not very good shows.

[B]

Right.

[C]

A lot of those. That tour is kind of like that. It's, like, fine. There's not a lot of pushing. I mean, besides, like, you know, the uic, ACDC bag and the Vanill Haleys, there's, like. There's isolated moments of brilliance, but I kind of Agree. I don't go back to that tour very much. Um, but that's interesting. Megan do. What do you think?

[A]

Yeah, this. This tour, listening back, like, there's some jams that just stop you in your tracks, but overall it's very inconsistent. I mean, some of the setless construction is really, really bad. And I think the tour starts off stronger than it ends, which is weird. Um, yeah, it's not sloppy, but. But it's not. The couture as a whole piece isn't super inspired, I think.

[B]

Incredible. Perp makes a great point. Worcester, the Wipeout show, similar to what RJ said. The Hampton, the Van Andle. What is that? Grand Rapids, the Vegas show. There were moments. The Dark side of the Moon. But I think to RJ's point, these were islands. And it's not like you ever picked up steam for four shows. If you think about fall 97, there's multiple moments where four or five shows in a row absolutely crush. And you just don't really get that here.

[A]

Yeah, there's some moments that are like edge of your seat fish in these shows.

[B]

Yes, for sure.

[A]

Like energy dynamics, like off the charts and like, it's that druggie 90s. Like, it's awesome. But it's. Yeah, they're moments.

[B]

My last two, just really quick are. I blame myself entirely for these. Okay. I feel a lot of pressure when trying to contextualize and rank Fish because of when I came on the scene. And there's always that, like, caveat. And so I always try to give as much due praise to non jammy mid-90s tours. Somewhat of a overcorrection character flaw. I will. I will admit, and I think that we may have done that with two tours that I think the tours around it, including it would have outweighed these tours being here. And that is spring 93 and spring 94. I think there's a great reason why they're in here, but I do think there is a sense of if you take out spring 93, but you still have spring 92 and August 93, you've done justice. If you take out spring 94 and you still have August 93, summer 94, fall 94, you've done it justice. Like, I think that there was a sense of, like, we listened to a lot of 93, 94 fish. Maybe that's because they were at the peak of their powers musically and like, speed wise and they were evolving so quickly. But it might have also just been because if you don't have those tours, you're Going to get a lot of.

[A]

Blowback, I would say. Definitely. I can hear that argument. For 93. That tour was ranked 25 by fans, 17 by us. I think for us, that was a real historical importance placement. It felt like, but 100%. Yeah. I mean, and I think historically it is crucial, and I think that's the one thing that has been really hard to weigh in this project is what weighs more, you know, narrative flow of a tour, Incredible jamming, setless construction, or the importance of what this tour did for the band moving forward. And I think that's a real. A balance that we're constantly trying to strike. But I could see the 93 going out. I don't know. I think spring 94. I don't know. I think it's important to have.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Mr. Weinstein, with the Context Matters tweeting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's it.

[C]

Yeah. Spring 94. I mean, it was also, like, one of those tours that was, you know, whatever, like, 100 shows, right. With, like, they were both.

[A]

The 93 was and the 93, too.

[C]

I think 94 is a little bit harder to get through. 93 was like. I just think that's such a fun tour. But both really long, right?

[A]

Yeah. It's kind of. Kind of the same thing, though, in that 93 tour.

[C]

Just, like, over and over again, I think. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. I'm just, like, looking at the rankings, we kind of did it justice, I think, that we talked about the ones that were kind of outliers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Where would. Where would summer 2024 go?

[A]

I have a feeling about it.

[C]

I want to have it.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know if this is a major, like, Hasty Rank, but I crunch the Meg's Corner data, and there are 26 shows and 91 jam chart entries. So it's 3.5 jams per show, which is in the mid to low range of, like, the really elite tours. But if you think about how diverse and expansive and narrative these jams are, I think that balances that lower number out. Also, contextually think about a band playing this strong of a tour in their 41st year. To me, that makes it a higher contender. So I would put it. I don't know if this is blasphemous. I would put it between 11 and 12. So winter 2003, above it for sure, but summer 2017, below it. You know, I think about summer 2017, they're like, yes. They're, like, discovering, jamming again, opening up the catalog. Winter 99. Definitely below it too, because of, like, the repetitive jamming. But I think that this, like, some of the jams on the summer, like, I. To be fair, I've completely forgotten summer 2024 because, like, I've been crunching a fucking shit ton of fish these last few months. But I do. When I do think back on this summer, it was pretty crazy considering where the band is in their career right now. I don't know. What do you guys think? Is that insane? RJ seems to think that's crazy.

[C]

I mean, putting it like, just. Just like. I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I'm going to pretend that you said that you would rank this summer over the spectacle and event that was the Baker's Dozen, which is crazy to me.

[A]

The Baker's Dozen, though, is. It's a.

[B]

You're crazy. No offense.

[A]

You're bets. Exactly. Don't take this the wrong way. You're fucking nuts. I think the. The. To me, and I have a strong feeling about this, and I think maybe I'm. I'm on an island with this feeling, but a tour that has a gimmick or a strong kind of like, guideline to how the shows are going to be. To me, it's. It confuses me about where it lies, because a tour that is pure, just like, just a plain tour. I don't know. Is it harder to do that? Of course the Baker's doesn't, like, changed my life. It's the reason I'm sitting in this chair right now. But. But I don't know if it. It's just. It was a. A construct.

[C]

Yeah. And. And Brian makes the point that the bigger dozen wasn't a tour, which I understand definitely that fact. And I'm not saying it was a tour. I'm saying that we're put. If we're putting 2024 summer tour over it, we're saying musically it's better or more important than. I just think. I mean, I just think the Baker's Dozen was so legendary that it seems hard to put a recency. A recent tour over it.

[A]

I get that.

[C]

I think it should be in the top 25. I would put it like, you know, maybe. Maybe above the. Maybe around fall 2013, I guess is. Where's that.

[A]

What number is that right now? 17.

[C]

17 18. It could just replace 2023 Spring Tour and that'd be fine.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I think it would be in the. In the high teens. I think that's where I'd put it. Brian Where, Where. Where do you put it?

[B]

10 and to. To Mr. Weinstein's note. Yes, you're right. The Baker's Dozen is not a tour we did all of summer 2017. I think to what Megan is saying, the majority of the tour. The reason why you think about that tour is the Baker's Dozen. Yeah, I'd put a 10, I think. I think the only tour since the hiatus to be stronger than it in terms of. And maybe this is just a personal thing of why I listen to this band, but that sense of them taking the stage and there being a. I have no idea what's about to happen, but I know I'm about to hear something I've never heard before. I know I'm about to see them do something and like create something together in the moment in front of me, which is the reason I go see them. Like, you can go see a lot of bands and get the same thing that they are doing. You can go see a lot of art and never actually see the process of creating a painting. You go see a movie. You don't actually get to like go on set and watch that movie happen when you go see fish. You watch them actually create the music in the moment and figure it out. And sometimes it sucks and sometimes it's amazing. And the only two tours I can think of since the. Since the 1.0 hiatus to really get to that level are fall 21 and summer 2024. I think you make a really strong argument for the Baker's Dozen being this. We're going to force ourselves to do something under the guise of a really fun fishy gimmick. And it's going to play to both the humorous mythology of this band and like the stat chasing and all the nerdism that like we all go there for, even though we try to be cool. And then it's also going to have these like, really sick, very serious moments that you listen back to now seven years later and you can hear a turn in their career. But I do think, and we talked about this a bit during that recap, I do think that summer 2017 jamming does not hold up seven years later the way it did even three or four years later. I think that they're just so much stronger now that it's hard to. If that's like the last point here, that's the thing. I'm going to take over the top. So, yeah, I just think when you go through like the level of playing that they're at, coming into Great woods the first night in mohegan trying multiple 40 minute jams on nearly back to back shows. The Deer Creek Run is really deep, exploratory wild music. Say what you will about a sit in for two nights, I think them having Billy up there and jamming with him was a really special thing and really, I think big picture wise, we're going to look back as like a really special, like symbolic moment. The Bethel Run was really deep.

[C]

One of them, One of them was great.

[B]

One of them was great. Yeah, yeah. But like even just the fact that he came out and like I think that there was something good in the second night. But anyway, like Monda Green had that first night that I would still put up there as one of the five best shows of the year. I think the Woodlands Jam is still one of the most impressive things they've ever played. And then Dicks was on a totally different level and man, I went back and listened to Albany and I guess now, now we're not in summer tour anymore but like that third night of Albany is like on a high level as well. Like they're just playing really well right now. And you get that over the entirety of summer 2024 in a way that even my two favorite 2.0 tours have a little bit more of a dip and a little bit more uncertainty. I just don't think there was a ton of uncertainty this year.

[A]

Yeah, I would say that like the level of consistency is really, really high. I would still put winter 2003 above it.

[B]

That is non attendance bias right there because that was my first show. So like we are, we are actually debating in critical territory which is an exciting no.

[A]

And that's like 2003. Like those tours completely like blew me away in this, during this project in a way that surprised me.

[C]

Okay. I think you guys got a little bit of recency bias. But it's okay. I'm not. We're gonna, it's fine. I mean I think like the. There's like one night of Great woods that's like. Okay, there's like one one night of Mohegan that's not as good as the other there. I, I don't think it's as like you guys are treating it like it's like fall 97, like every, every two. Every show was outrageous.

[A]

I just think it's better, I think it's better than some of the tour. Most of the tours below it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm just saying like 11 or 12. I. Yeah, I'm just saying that the.

[C]

Second animal has zero jam shard entries. So that's fine.

[B]

That's a, that's a fair thought.

[C]

Find that on fall 97. Come back to me, number 10.

[A]

But we're not saying it should be one.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not saying it should be on par with. I think, I think there, I think, I think what would be interesting and I, I'm surprised I didn't do this this year. But like, I think it'd be interesting to tear these off because I think that there's like top three tours and then it drops off and then a couple more like, I, I, we can.

[A]

Only do that if you would name the tiers. Brian. You're only allowed to do that if you name the tiers.

[B]

I'll work on that for the blog post.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's really my fave.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

What was our question here? And I think, Sorry, I just think that this is like, to clarify things. Is that the rebate jam chart entries? No, but that's part of it.

[C]

It's part of it. It's part of it for sure.

[A]

I mean, yeah, the rubric is also.

[C]

I'm just making stuff up. I mean, if Brian Weinstein, if you think that I'm like, that I have like a sheet here with a bunch of like graphs and stuff for the arguments I'm making, then. No, like, I'm just kind of saying stuff. I'm just saying to try to make this entertaining.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Weinstein, I have page, second screen right now.

[C]

I just think if we're talking about, you know, I also think there has to be like a cooling off period before you rank tours in the broader scheme of things.

[A]

Because yes, I was.

[B]

Okay, fine. But you asked the question.

[A]

It was hasty. I, I don't think it's hasty.

[C]

I, it was actually your question that.

[B]

I will stand, I will stand by this take. You all can come at me in five years when you're like, bro, if you listen to summer 2020, can you.

[C]

Actually say it's my question? If you're the one who asked, who wanted to ask the question, but I just said it.

[B]

We have been talking about this collectively as a group since what mid summer.

[C]

Vegan knight is to her.

[B]

What do we do?

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

It's good. That's great. I can't believe the Megan Monda Green. And now we're, now we're top. We're kicking out. We're kicking summer 2017 to the curb after monogreen.

[B]

This is what I'm talking about. None. She's not, she's not independent spies here.

[A]

Also, I loved Monda Green until Dicks happened. I loved Monda Green until day four. Then I was a little bit sad, and then Dicks happened. And then I was fucking crushed. But it's fine. I'm moving past it. But I still. I mean, the Dicks Run Alone is. Was fucking amazing like that. I don't know. I just think that it's.

[B]

Dick's was pretty good this year. I would agree.

[A]

Dix is pretty good. But I. To. To Brian's question about the rubric. It is interesting to think about because I think we each had slightly different rubrics. There wasn't like an, you know, an eighth grade English teacher rubric, like, I think you would want Brian Weinstein. But it was definitely. I think we agreed upon kind of the standards and the questions we'd be asking ourselves about how to rank them.

[C]

I just also, I want to say that it was really hard for me to get into summer 2024 because I had listened to 300 fish shows leading up to summer 2024. So I think this I. And same thing happened with the Albany shows for me. Like, it, it, it like obscured my ability to absorb new Fish because I was just. I was just listening to shows literally constantly. So I think maybe I'll. Maybe my ranking will go up over time.

[A]

Yeah, I actually felt that when we came back after summer tour because I felt like it was so good. And then I was having. I think I went back to winter 99 and it was just like the same thing over and over again. And I was like, I can't listen to this. I've been listening to like, incredible new fish. So it went both ways. It's hard to do this kind of a project. I don't know.

[C]

It doesn't affect Brian. Brian's just been cool, calm, and collected all year.

[A]

Listen to 7 million shows, assume so much information, and, like, synthesize it a little bit harder for me.

[C]

Hey, what's up? This is Blake Weiland. I'm the host of the Tone Mob podcast. It's a show where I interview guitar people about guitar stuff. We talk about their pedals, their amps, their accessories, their preferences, all that stuff, as well as a healthy dose of whatever comes up. Topics have ranged from aliens to addiction and anywhere in between. Oh, yeah, and pizza. We're definitely going to be talking about pizza. So get the show. Wherever you're listening to this podcast at, just search the Tone Mob in your search bar and it will pop right up. Come join us.

[B]

We're having a lot of fun.

[C]

Thanks for Checking it out.

[B]

Welcome to us talking about our podcast for a minute. What's the name of that podcast? That's Ax to Grind. And right now you're going to be getting a little. A little taste of it, right down to the shaky microphone and all.

[C]

And my name's Bob.

[B]

And my name's Patrick. And usually we're joined by Tom.

[C]

Tom's the best. Tom has a real grown up job that requires him to be at work, but we talk about decidedly not so.

[B]

Grown up things like hardcore music and things that people that like hardcore music tend to like.

[C]

So that could be the latest shows, revisiting classic material, talking about the new classics, all the little dorm room nonsense that you imagine from niche music podcasts.

[B]

That you either love, want to love, or hate. Yeah. Imagine all the emotions that you have towards a genre that has impacted your life and then condense them down to an hour to two hours a week.

[C]

So triangulate your speakers, think about jumping off the bed, singing along, dancing like an idiot. And listen, Axle Grind podcast.

[B]

I don't know. We're not talking about the stock market here, so I know what I'm talking about.

[C]

You know, Megan, I just want to, like, I just. I just want to applaud your courage for moving beyond monitoring. I just like, I know she hasn't.

[B]

She hasn't. It's still there.

[C]

All right, what's our biggest. What was our biggest Miss Rank as a group?

[A]

I know what it is.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's number one. Oh, wow.

[C]

Going straight for it.

[A]

There's two other ones that I think are overrated, but one of them is going to make you really sad because we just talked about it. I think winter 99 and 2017 summer are a little overrated, but I think especially like listening to those in the context of the project. I mean, we talked about it, but summer 2017, take the Baker's Dozen or just isolated out. And the rest of it is okay, winter 99, super repetitive. But number one, I really think. I mean, I have thoughts about what my top five were and they're different than ours, so I think that's different. But I do think that. I do think after everything, I think fall 97 should have been one. I'm sorry, Brian. Don't hate me.

[B]

There's no hate. I don't agree.

[A]

He's like, I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

[B]

Yeah, I just. Yes, I think the biggest. No, I think the biggest misrank we made and that fans made was Summer 98, which we aligned with the fans on as this at the number four tour. And I think when we listened to it, we had made a turn around. Like, our top nine, fall 21, summer 95, summer 97, or, sorry, top eight, summer 93, and then summer 98. And, like, when you go from fall 21 to summer 95 to summer 97, those tours are so intense and so good, and they're breaking down barriers. And then you go back to Summer 93, which doesn't have as many jams, but, like, they are pushing boundaries, and you go to summer 98. It's just really nice. It's really fun, and it's really pleasant. And I think that there's a little bit of a overweight there because of how pleasant and idyllic that tour is. There's not a ton of conflict. There's cover songs, beautiful jamming. Trey's tone sounds amazing, but I think as you're building the series up and making these cases of importance and this happened and this was broken, and you get to summer 98, and you're just kind of like, that was fun. It was a really fun tour, you know, so that would be my number one. Personally.

[A]

You don't think like, that. It is interesting, though, that transition between, like, the kind of reinvention and the millennial sound. Like, it's such a bridge, that tour, in a way that I think is. I don't know. It's interesting.

[B]

It almost feels.

[A]

I don't think it should be that high either.

[B]

I hear the late 90s is. They had this breakthrough into 97, and then it was more and more nuanced breakthroughs after that, but not, like a full vibe shift. Like, 97 is such a shift in sound. And then when you go into 98 and 99, when you talk, I think accurately about the repetitiveness of 99, you start to get that 98, where it's just. It's a very pleasant feel. There's some great jams like the Runaway Gym from Burgerstown, the Ant, Lemon Wheel, and Being Jam. Tons more. I'm forgetting. But I. And I'm not saying we, like, drop it off the list. I just think it could have probably dropped three or four slots.

[A]

What do you think, rj?

[C]

I mean, I liked that tour going back to it, but maybe it's just because it was just a lot of fun. And you know me.

[A]

I mean, I loved it, too. I. I think, like, Summer 97 has, like, more of a narrative arc, but, like, I don't know. It's a. It's. It's A really fun tour, but. Yeah, I can see that. It's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I like that. I think that's true.

[B]

Summer 95 is just, like, problematic in my head, I guess, but, you know, that's just me.

[C]

I haven't done the math on the delta, but it feels like maybe was 90, not was summer 98. Was summer 98. And then the summer 97 Europe tour are the two that had the biggest differences between us and the fans that made the top 25. Pretty close that in summer 93.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Summer 93 fans voted that 12 we voted at 5. Summer Europe 97 fans voted that 8, we voted at 21.

[C]

I mean, I'm. I'm surprised, honestly, that the. That the summer 2003 tour was not in the top 25 fan vote.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

Are you kind of. Because I just. I feel like. Well, I know that you think that, like, gen. Generally, like, people hate 2.0. Hate 2.0. There's. It's like. It's like, that's what.

[B]

It's a common. It's a common conception.

[C]

That's what UFO people think about, like, the general population. It's like, those people are always listening to me. I'm just saying, I don't know if that really exists, but I guess it does because of the vote.

[B]

It totally does.

[C]

I feel like most people I talk to are like, why does everyone hate 2.0? 2.0 is awesome. Like, everyone I know says that. So, like, I don't know where the other people are except me.

[B]

I'm not. I'm not online.

[C]

I'm always on the other side.

[B]

Fully approve this, but I know for a fact I can't give you the tweets because I deleted them because I didn't want Elon looking at them. I could show you conversations that I had with people for years where I would say, hey, this is, like, a really good jam that if you like this style of fish that's being played. This is kind of a darker, dingier side of it. And people, like, we just don't listen. We don't listen to 2.0. 2.0 is just not played because it's sludgy and it's gross and they're all on drugs the whole time, and nobody could. Like, the jams are just long and abstract. And I. I don't think it's a reach to say that that is a common feeling within the fan base.

[A]

I mean, yeah, I don't really know who those people are, what people say, but I do Think that Both of the 2.0 tours, the 2003 tours on here, are underrated. I mean, those two tours, listening back completely blew me away. And that was a blind spot for me for sure. And I think listening back to those tours in a full way, like, I've heard isolated parts of them, but I've never listened to both of those tours fully. And it was eye opening. And I just think especially winter, like that tour, just like the combination of like endless jams, great set listing, bust outs, like, it's just. There's such a specific sound to it. It's so re. Listenable.

[C]

Yeah, this is.

[B]

This is a really good point here by Mr. Weinstein that I think is the general vibe around it. Half 2.0 isn't awesome though, which I would agree with that to an extent. There. There is some really, really rough stuff happens there. It's easy to color the who quote bad when the last 10 months is a slow motion car crash. I think that that's how a lot. I think that's what people hung on to, that it ended really badly with August 2004 with Coventry and so why would you go back and celebrate an era of druggie excess and sloppy playing and dark, dismal jamming?

[A]

Well, it's an important part of their history and thank you. Fucking awesome. I just don't understand.

[B]

Insert the Steve Carell. Thank you, Gif. God.

[A]

I just. I don't know. I think it's weird to categorize that like that. Yeah, I think people are sour from Coventry.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, it was. It sucked. It was awful.

[B]

Do you think people are more sour about Monda Green or Coventry?

[A]

Maybe just like a little bit Coventry, but like a little bit. Everybody's gonna start hating me because, like, if you saw me at Mondegraine, I was having the time of my life.

[B]

But the food options at modern fish festivals compared to Coventry, my God, everything. A lot of like plates of French fries. I ate there for like $14 because that was all that they could serve.

[A]

Oh, God. The bathroom situation. Impressive. Mondegrain. So many good things at Mondegrain.

[C]

I just. I think that my only take is that I think that the Summer 97 US tour, which was ranked 3 by fans, is a little much. I do think that we. We had. I think any of our top three tours could have easily been number one. I think that was one of my main takeaways. Like, I think fall 94 could easily be the number one tour of all time. Like musically.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Totally outrageous and in some ways more interesting musically than fall 95 or fall 97. More like more.

[A]

Agreed.

[C]

Innovative.

[A]

Most risky. For sure. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[B]

I think it kind of fucked fall 97 up for me. I had never heard. I'd never heard fall 97 the way I did after I listened to fall 94 and I was like, wait a second. That band was riding like a eight armed monster. Communicating, taking risks, taking chances. This band is kind of like, let's play some funk chords and let Trey Solo for 19 minutes because he thinks he's Jimi Hendrix right now. Like, it really messed up my perception of it in a way that will change how I listen to this band going forward. So, yeah, maybe we should have just bit the bulletin. It'll be interesting to do the re. Re. Reordering in 10 years.

[C]

What do you guys. Okay, speaking of reordering, why don't you guys give me your top five?

[A]

Okay. So I have fallen 97 is number one. I have fallen 94 is number two. I have fallen 95 as number three. I don't care what you guys say. I have summer 97 is number four. Fucking love that tour. And then I'm at a tie for five because I'm confused. I don't know if it's Summer 93 or Summer 95, but those are the two that I have kind of battling it out for five. Are you going to both going to be okay?

[B]

Well, I'm fine. Yeah. I. I think that's great. Or five in there. I think it's a good list. It's a really good list. I like that you're able to sneak in summer US 97.

[C]

Yeah. I'm surprised that you have 93 on there. What say really surprised?

[A]

I think that's just context. I think that that tour is so important for where they go. I don't think I didn't love listening back to that tour. It's. It's the same. It's not my favorite kind of fish. I don't love driving. Like, I just. Tension release, all this. I'm much more space here and it's not my vibe. But I do think it's absolutely crucial to where they go historically. And I think that if you don't have One of these earlier 90s tours in your top five, I don't know, I just feel like there's an importance to having a historical tour on there in that way. And I do think it's weird to have all of your tours just be 94 or 95. 97. Like there's. There's something outside of there. That. That is important to. To acknowledge. So maybe it's not really. That's not like my preference.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think that that's a very. That's a very fair approach to do it. I kind of took a similar approach with a different result, but I. I think that that's getting you to think contextually is job well done. We. We did it.

[C]

Brian, what do you got?

[B]

All right, so my number one is the same fall 95. And then everything goes crazy. Okay, you guys ready? Number two, fall 94. And this is mainly based on like, I will go back and I mean, I've already started re listening to some of these jams because I'm just like, what happened here? Incredible. Perp says that fashion wise, 93 is number one, which.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Number three, fall 97. And I think again, you could take these top three. This is a tier of its own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think in 10 months, I could go back and listen to a fall 97 show and be like, what are you. Why are you just trying to stir up controversy, dude? Like, just listen to the back end of the Haleys and you're good. Number four, summer 95. That's my sound. That's my vibe. I'm pretty outspoken about 1995 fish being really, really, really good, if not great, if not the greatest. And I think you got to have that type of jamming and exploration in there. And then I went really, really hot take here. Okay, you guys ready?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I don't know. Maybe we'll see.

[B]

Fall 21.

[A]

Wow, wow, wow. Five. Wow.

[B]

Here's my rationale. And I think you made a point about this. The 94, 95, 97 stuff, a lot of that has to be in your top five. That's just the condensed. Everything is aligned peak plus we're exploring to discovering new sounds. Fish and I think that had they not come back in 09, have they not come back after Covid, that legacy holds up. And you're still getting box sets that are being reviewed by Rolling Stone. You still get people online discussing past jams. Like, you still get the vibe around the band. I think that fall 2021, and then to a lesser extent, spring 23, sorry, RJ and summer 24 have changed the dynamics of what we will think of this band whenever they ultimately do call quits in such a way that you have to honor that. And I think if we didn't have these early 2000s tours, when you think 10, 20, 30 years from now, and we're probably still talking fish Don't. Don't fight it. It's gonna happen. We're like, there's. There's gonna be historical, contextual conversations about this band until the end of time. This era is going to be as important. Podcasting with us, it's gonna be as. As important to why this band was so important overall from a historical standpoint as the stuff in the mid-90s. So that's it.

[A]

I agree with that. No, I. I totally. I totally agree with that. And I can't.

[B]

Come at me online. You got to text me. And none of you have my number.

[A]

So, you know, I think it's true because I think that's what makes the band still relevant today, and I think that that is an important part of what should be considered of their top tours. So I like it. I think it's bold.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Wow. All right. I would put you falling a fall 94 first. Fall 97 second. Fall 95 third. Summer 95 fourth. And I think I would put winter 2003 as fifth. I know. Here's why. I think this is the most, like, I think that what's the most interesting tour between. I mean, the end of. Between big Cyprus and 2009.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Right. So you have, like, December 99 and. And summer 10 years 2009. It's the most interesting thing that happened. They're all. All the shows are good. They're. I mean, there's the BB King sit in, which kind of like actually almost takes it out of the ranking, just because it's just such a. Bizarre. In a short tour like that, like having one half of a show that just is sort of bizarre kind of fucks up the whole thing, but it's okay.

[B]

But then you get the twists later in the show that kind of makes up for it. So you have that.

[C]

Yeah. And for me, contextually listening, this is one of the tours that. So when I listen to summer 03 and then much later listened to this, I was like, this is. First of all, it's so different from summer 03. I think it was like five weeks later. And it's such a better sound. Like the. The way that Trey's tone is different, the way that the band is, like, playing together is different. Even like that first show from Vegas or the second show from Vegas, the. The whole thing is, like, awesome. I mean, I don't know. Like, there's. There are these jams and of course there's like the Gin from Cincy and the. And the Nassau show, but some. Like, every show has something and, like, the growling guitar with the effects and Mike driving these, like, grooves. And the ghosts in particular on that tour. I think it's just an amazing sound that I like. Really didn't like as much and probably wouldn't have liked as much if I didn't listen to this, you know, the tour as it. As it unfolded in terms of the series. So I thought it really kind of changed my mind about Fish. I think the 97, 98, 99 stuff was less good to me than I expected.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is kind of surprising.

[B]

Yeah, totally surprising. I didn't realize I was seeing the Top five tour when I was, you know, been. I was released from daycare and allowed to go to Fish at the Rosemont Horizon. Sorry, All State arena. And I had a good time. I had no idea I was seeing Top five Fish. This is cool.

[A]

Thank you. Don't know it when you're in it. I have to say. You don't know when you're in it. I certainly didn't know it, but I. I totally agree, rj. I love that pick because I think that is the tour that surprised me the most out of this hole and stood out as something such a singular sound that is. It's just phenomenal that it. That it happened and that it stands out so much when you have to listen to so much Fish.

[C]

It.

[A]

It's exciting when something really grabs you. Yeah, that tour is like that.

[C]

And I don't want to, like. Brian, I don't want to call you out, but, like, I do think this summer 93 tour is probably the. One of the most listened to just in terms of shows by me and probably a lot of people who like collected tapes and stuff. And I think going back to that, like, there were some moments there, but I think largely it's, like, hard. It's kind of hard to get through, I think, because summer 93, summer 93, like, it being up that high. I'm a little bit, like, now looking back on it and going through those shows. By the time you get halfway through that tour, it's like, okay, we got a stash, we got a Bowie, we got a mics. We're like. We're building tension, we're building peaks, you know, so that's my only. That. That's one that would go down.

[A]

Yeah, I can see that.

[B]

I think Meg makes a really strong point for context for that tour, which far be it for me to disagree with a contextual argument, but I think when I listened back to it, I. It was kind of the only tour of this entire series that I said, oh, man, thank God. There's really no jam charted entries for these 10 shows.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like even. Even like fall 94, 95 that are longer and have a slight delay to the. To the onset of the greatness. I was kind of like, because I love the sound of those tours, I was digging around more. Whereas, like August3, I was kind of like, I. I need to get the highlights and then I need to get out.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lot of repetition.

[C]

All right, well, we're gonna have to wrap it up soon, but where. What do you guys want to share about your personal journey on this series? Personally, you go.

[A]

I think one thing I was really thinking about a lot, there's a few things, is that we're just so spoiled by modern fish. Thinking about how they connect so fast in jamming now and how diverse it is and how it just draws on so many years of their styles, so many songs to make setlist interesting. I feel like it makes it harder to sometimes appreciate a lot of the older tours without feeling bored by the repetition. And so for me, it was a real challenge sometimes to remain engaged in tours that were more thematically one note. And I think that was something that I had to push through. And for me, my favorite tours were the tours that either showed a huge narrative arc that was usually kind of like some push in evolution, or had a really specific sound. And it was cool to bounce between the eras, but I found it really challenging to compare back to back different eras. I was thinking that I would love to actually take these top 25 tours and put them in chronological order and listen to them like highlights in that way, because then you could really hear the sound evolve in an organic. And the way that it really happened, it's very confusing to go from like winter 99, summer 2017. It just. For me, it was a lot of like placing myself somewhere contextually, that was really challenging when I had just been somewhere so, so different. So I almost feel like there was a. A learning curve for me in being able to isolate the tour and place it where it belonged when I had just been somewhere else. And also just made me realize so much about what I love musically about this band and how much I really seek out jamming or a sound that's really searching and how often a lot of their, especially their early stuff is not like that. It's very driving. It's very, like linear and going one place. And for me, the expansiveness of the way that they jam now and the way that they started to shift towards in the late 90s is really what's kept me super engaged with this band, because I'm looking for that. I want a journey. I want a narrative arc and a jam. I want them to feel like they're discovering it in the moment, even if it takes a while to get there. And I think that's been really made clear to me through this. But also just their constant drive for reinvention and evolution is something that has inspired me so much. And I think that seeing this project through has really brought that home for me and that I don't know if there'll ever be another band for me that does this because it's. It's so present in every one of their eras. This need for reinvention is just so inspiring.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I found the way that it's an interesting idea to go through this chronologically, which may be now to double check if we got everything right. 20, 25 HF pod. We will be going through all the top tours chronologically. I think the thing that ultimately stuck out is similar to what you said, that they're. They're just in a constant state of evolution. They're always looking towards what's next, even when they're peaking within a specific style. And regardless the type of music that they're playing, be it that really abrasive and aggressive speed jazz in 93, these long, abstract, wild jams, 95, or the funk or the so on and so forth, no matter what era they're in, even when you have a defined sound, which I think if you're thinking about, like, the rubric for these tours, that's kind of one of the core things, is all these tours had a very defined sound where they'd reached a point, but even when they reach that, they're still pushing, they're still looking for what's next. And that constant tension, that constant ebb and flow is, you know, push and pull is. Is exactly what I'm looking for from music in a lot of way. And I don't think I've ever found it in any band better than Fish. And I think similar to you, Meg, I don't know if I ever will. And I think that that's what makes them just ripe for exploration and discovery and discussion. And the reason why, year after year, I still think, okay, what shows am I going to? What? You know, I'm webcasting everything. I'm listening to everything. Like, who am I talking to about this? Like, it's just. It's A constant part of my life for that reason. So I think it was more just, like, affirmed on this tour than made me realize something I didn't already know. It just. It was just cool to go through that process with them.

[C]

Yeah. I think in addition to what you guys said and as attendance by.

[B]

It's.

[C]

Brian said the re. The real best tour was the friends we made along the way. Which is true. So true. Including you, Brian, So thank you. Yeah.

[B]

And became friends. You're right. That's a good point.

[C]

In addition to that, like, the points you guys made, which I agree with, I think for me, like, always thinking about these tours was a kind of like a. Each tour was like a monolith, you know? Like, you think about. Think about fall 94, and you think about, like, five or six, like, jams. Same with. Same with basically every tour. It's like, oh, this tour had, like, these awesome jams. But. But I think when you look at it in the way we did, you see these. The way that the sound changes in a tour, which I don't think I ever really, like, fully appreciated before. I think there are multiple tours that we talked about it a lot, I think, in the context of the project, but they're these. I mean, it even happened with, like, fall 95. Fall 95 was clear, I guess, and we maybe knew that all along that they, like, kind of got toward the fall 95 sound as the tour went on. But even the fall 97 sounds changed slightly along the way. Or like fall 94, as they got further into November, it just. Everything changed. And like, some of these tours, the first show, the tour, and the last show of the tour, like, almost sound like different bands. And I think that, yeah, something I probably didn't fully appreciate before, because, again, I think you think there's so much fish to listen to. So it's like, if you want to listen to, like, summer 95, here are, like, 10 jams you can listen to. But if you listen to the whole tour, you realize that. But the sound at the beginning and the sound at the end is totally different. And the. Where they are as a band is different. And it just, you know, they go on these 40, 50, 30, 20, whatever show runs together, and they. They change, you know, and that's. It's just something that's really interesting that I think is kind of brought out or reinforced by a project like this.

[A]

Yeah, I think that was, to me, one of the things that really stood out with my favorite tours. And the thing. The ones that are the best have the biggest evolution in them. They're like. Like you said earlier, Brian, they're a peak, but they're still changing within that peak, which is just like, who does that? Like, almost anybody gets good at something and you just stay there. Like, you don't. But they never do that. Their best tours, they're peaking and they're still pushing. And it's. It's crazy. Like, that was to me. Why fall 97? Like, even though it is. People think of it at one way, it is really not. They're. They are really pushing themselves to change even while they're developing a new sound. It's crazy. And I don't think that is something that many people do in art unless they're absolutely at another level.

[B]

Yeah. And I guess, like, I would say, like, to all of that. The one thing that surprised me in listening to this was the experience I had listening to Fall 94 because it was a tour I really respected. I felt like was in the right slot at number three. But I remember as we got closer to it, kind of thinking, like, I'm really going to have to spend some time here because I don't feel like I have as much of a grip on why this is number three compared to fall 97. Fall 95 being two in one and going through it and realizing how many of those shows and how many of those jams the band was literally just like, we're going to play in a manner that could absolutely fail right now. And the fact that we're willing to do this night after night after night and kind of play music without really caring if your audience is interested, kind of. Because you, as the artist need to work through this. That's. That's a experience with, like, mass art that I just don't think we get enough. And I think ultimately is. Is a. Is a huge, huge reason why I keep listening to them, keep thinking about them and why it was worthy to do a series like this. Because you want to hear them as they're working through those changes and as they're evolving and as they're peaking and then saying, okay, that's not enough. Where do we go next? What do we do next? And trying to figure that all out.

[A]

And I mean, clearly we've said this, but, like, they were doing that when they were supposed to be building an audience and playing their biggest shows ever. Like, right. It's fucking amazing. That tour is incredible. The number two.

[C]

We made some. We. We agreed on some stuff. We disagreed on some stuff, but it was amazing. What a Fun project. Thanks everybody for tuning in and following along with us. We are going to come back next week, I think. Next week, right, and recap the MSG shows. Maybe at the end of next week, maybe next weekend. We don't really know. There are no weeks or weekends now. So what I'm talking about is like in the future, sometime, not too long after the show's end, but not, not right when they end. So we'll be back. But Brian, what are we going to do in 2025?

[B]

So we got some stuff the first three months of the year. So the first quarter is going to be kind of a return of form of sorts. We're going to give ourselves a little bit of a break from the series approach and we're going to do some random shows, shows that we've never discussed before, shows that someone may want to bring to the fold, give ourselves a little bit of a lighter workload, work week to week where we just have to listen to one show rather than jams from 655 shows. Maybe we'll have some guests on. We are going to recap MSG like you said. We are going to do a 2024 show draft that will happen in early January where we draft our favorite shows from 2024 and see which Monda Green show we can leave Meg with.

[A]

Don't you just love how they're like, we're going to reduce the workload except we're going to do a draft where you have to listen to an entire, entire tour.

[B]

Do you?

[A]

This is so good. Well, some of us do. You've already listened to it all recently. We know I have.

[B]

Yeah. But then so January, February, March, we'll kind of be doing these like random fun shows. So if there are shows you guys want to hear us talk about that you think like, man, I love this show and nobody talks about it. Show send us a voicemail and we'll, we'll, we'll consider it. It could be fun to, to do some fan requested shows and then we have a couple of ideas that we're kicking around for the majority of 2025 and it may last into 2026 where we've got a couple ideas for our next series that we're trying to figure out exactly how to do and what we should do in 2025 versus what we should do in 2026 and so on to keep things fresh for you guys. So lots to come. Gonna be another big year. 40 for 40 in 2023. Top 25 tours in 2024 who knows what we will have in store in 2025, but you find out soon enough. It's great.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Top 25 Big Ball Jam draft.

[A]

I'm busy that day.

[B]

I'll do that by myself.

[A]

Can't make it.

[C]

I heard that was really fun in person, though. Really cool that they just made noises for, like four minutes. It's awesome.

[B]

You had to be there, man, is what people would say.

[A]

Exactly, man.

[C]

They should do that with a vocal jam and just put it all together and do that Big Ball Jam vocal.

[A]

Jam, and then don't give them any ideas, please. This is like a nightmare.

[C]

All right, so we are going to be back for a New Year's run recap. Maybe we'll have a guest on. Maybe we won't. We don't really know because, you know, you know how we do it here. But you guys should leave us reviews and tell your friends about how awesome HF POD is, because we're still here. We're still having fun. We hope you're all having fun. I think that's it, guys, right?

[A]

I think that's it. Come say hi if you see us at MSG.

[C]

Yeah. Then come to the 29th. We'll be at the Irish exit, which is in the Moynihan Train hall, and then we'll go to the show. But, yeah, thank you guys for listening and commenting and sharing and reviewing and all that. It's been fun doing the series, and we will see you right after the MSG run.

[B]

Bye. See y'all. Osiris.

[C]

This is Chris Da Makes, guitarist and vocalist for Less Than Jake, and host of Krista Makes a podcast, a songwriting podcast, where every week I'm joined by an amazing guest to break down the writing, recording, and release of one iconic song from their career. In our giant evergreen back catalog of episodes, we've had rock legends such as Dee Snider and Huey Lewis, punk rock favorites like Mark Hoppus, Fat Mike and Brett Gurewitz, and up and coming artists of today such as Liz Stokes of the Beths and Genesis Owusu. We've had guests from all genres and styles of music, and I guarantee that if you peruse our back catalog, you'll see several episodes that'll make you say, man, I gotta hear that. Whether you're a fan of music or a creator of music yourself, you'll take away a whole new appreciation for the songs you know and love. Krista Makes a Podcast is available for free on all the places you could possibly listen to podcasts, and new episodes come out every Monday.

[B]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Pandolfi inviting you to check out the new season of my podcast, Inside the Musician's Brain, with new episodes airing now. Hearing it in that room, these guys playing this thing and trying to figure out how to play this song was mind blowing.

[C]

It's so inspiring to know there's so.

[B]

Much more to it than you ever thought, and it just opened another door. But when people find faith, because they need to, in terms of just filling a void to feel better without actually being better, that's when it becomes a crutch. Much like, you know, drugs and alcohol. Man, I don't have all the time.

[C]

In the world here if I want.

[B]

To be a professional bluegrass musician.

[C]

I felt like I had to take.

[A]

A very, like, strategic approach, just trying.

[C]

To get rid of the barriers and figure out what those barriers were.

[B]

The feelings still come, and I have to reckon with that, but I think I have better ways of moving forward and not being stuck, which I think.

[C]

Was the killer for me. Catch all that and so much more.

[B]

On the new season of Inside the Musician's Brain.