Trump ratchets up pressure on Powell to lower rates

Summary

Podcast Summary: Here's the Scoop – "Trump ratchets up pressure on Powell to lower rates"
Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Brian Chung, NBC News

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Introduction

In this episode of "Here's the Scoop", host Brian Chung delves into the escalating tensions between former President Donald Trump and Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. The discussion highlights the potential ramifications of this public fallout on the U.S. economy and everyday Americans. Additionally, the episode covers significant updates on student loan forgiveness, developments in the Justice Department’s handling of Ghislaine Maxwell, Columbia University’s settlement with the Trump administration, and the passing of wrestling legend Hulk Hogan.

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Trump's Pressure on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell

[00:33] Brian Chung opens the episode by highlighting the unusual and unprecedented public criticisms President Trump has directed at Jerome Powell, the Federal Reserve Chair he appointed in 2017. Trump's dissatisfaction stems from the Fed's reluctance to lower interest rates, leading him to personally inspect the Fed's $2.5 billion renovation project.

[02:11] Brian Chung: "President Trump's attacks on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. It's the public falling out that could have huge implications for you and your money because Powell, he's the most important banker in the country, arguably the world."

[01:31] Elizabeth Craft, NBC News Senior Business Correspondent, explains the rarity of a president visiting the Fed building, noting it has only happened three times in history:

• Franklin D. Roosevelt dedicating the Fed building in the 1930s.
• George W. Bush swearing in Ben Bernanke in 2006.

Trump’s uninvited inspection breaks this historical precedent, raising concerns about the Fed’s independence.

[02:20] Elizabeth Craft emphasizes the importance of the Fed’s autonomy:

"They have their own security, they have their own funding. And that is why the United States has kind of the gold standard... the U.S. is the U.S. because it's got this independent Fed."

The discussion underscores that the Fed's dual mandate is to manage inflation and ensure a stable job market, free from political interference.

[03:15] Brian Chung questions the impact of Trump’s actions on monetary policy:

"Political pressure, bad for monetary policy."

Elizabeth Craft elaborates on the specifics of the $2.5 billion renovation, clarifying that initial extravagant plans have been scaled back due to practical challenges like asbestos contamination and water table issues. The Inspector General has found no fraud or malfeasance, attributing the costs to standard over-budget building projects in D.C.

[05:03] Elizabeth Craft discusses the potential consequences if Trump attempts to fire Powell:

"He could potentially fire the Fed chief or remove him from that, that Fed chief role if they found fraud or malfeasance, if they had a cause."

However, she notes the complexity of such an action:

"There are 12 people who sit there and decide... It's not just one guy."

The likelihood of Powell being ousted is slim, and such a move could erode confidence in the Fed, potentially driving interest rates higher rather than achieving Trump's desired rate cuts.

[07:02] Elizabeth Craft highlights the broader implications for savers and borrowers:

"If you borrow money, you want the lowest interest rates possible, but you also don't want high inflation, which eats into the value of your dollar."

She points out that while lower interest rates benefit borrowers by making loans cheaper, they can disadvantage savers who rely on interest income.

[08:08] Elizabeth Craft further explains the economic balance:

"Imagine three, a three point cut. What that would say, that would say we're heading to a depression, we gotta cut rates."

The episode concludes this segment with uncertainty about the future, acknowledging Trump's comments about Powell’s impending departure but suggesting that the Fed will likely maintain its current course despite external pressures.

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Student Loan Forgiveness and Financial Struggles

Transitioning from monetary policy, Brian Chung introduces a segment on student loan forgiveness, emphasizing recent developments that have paused forgiveness efforts for borrowers enrolled in income-based repayment (IBR) plans.

[10:38] Brian Chung: "Just this week, the Education Department temporarily paused student loan forgiveness for borrowers enrolled in the income based repayment plan."

Gretchen Rubin, guest and New York Times bestselling author, provides insights into the complexities and emotional toll of student debt:

"Nearly nine out of ten people have had to change their life because of their student loan payments and yet they still don't want to talk about it."

Rubin discusses the "Alphabet Soup" of loan programs, explaining how convoluted options like PAYE, REPAYE, and Trump's RAPR contribute to borrower confusion. She advises borrowers to prioritize high-interest debts and adopt a strategic approach to managing their finances:

"Use the rule of seven... prioritize paying down the debts that have over like 7% or over in terms of an interest rate."

Rubin underscores the generational impact of soaring education costs and stagnant wages, making debt repayment a significant barrier to financial stability for millennials and Gen Z.

[17:11] Gretchen Rubin on loan forgiveness:

"Do I think that there may be a chance that this happens in the future? Sure. But I'm not here holding my breath."

She emphasizes personal responsibility in managing debt amidst uncertain political support for widespread forgiveness initiatives.

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Other Headlines

1. DOJ and Ghislaine Maxwell

Brian Chung reports on the Department of Justice's renewed interactions with Ghislaine Maxwell, currently serving a 20-year sentence. Tom Winter, NBC News National Law Enforcement and Intelligence Correspondent, comments on the unusual nature of these meetings, which revisit the Epstein case without new charges or revelations.

2. Columbia University Settlement

Columbia University has agreed to pay $200 million to the federal government, addressing the Trump administration’s claims of inadequate action against harassment of Jewish students during protests over the Gaza war. The settlement includes admissions reforms and a mask ban, although Columbia did not admit wrongdoing. This development follows similar actions by Harvard, which is currently suing the administration over funding cuts related to campus policies.

3. Passing of Hulk Hogan

The episode pays tribute to wrestling icon Hulk Hogan (Terry Bollea), who passed away at 71. Hogan was renowned for his charismatic persona, headline WrestleManias, and contributions to the global popularity of professional wrestling. His legacy includes both his achievements in the ring and controversies, such as the high-profile lawsuit against Gawker and allegations of misconduct, which affected his relationship with WWE until his reinstatement into their Hall of Fame.

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Conclusion

Brian Chung wraps up the episode by reiterating the significance of the discussed topics, particularly the high-stakes tension between the President and the Federal Reserve, and the ongoing challenges faced by student loan borrowers. The episode underscores the intricate interplay between politics, economics, and personal finance, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how these elements impact daily life.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brian Chung [00:33]: "President Trump's attacks on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell... could have huge implications for you and your money."

• Elizabeth Craft [02:20]: "They have their own security, they have their own funding. And that is why the United States has kind of the gold standard... the U.S. is the U.S. because it's got this independent Fed."

• Elizabeth Craft [07:02]: "If you borrow money, you want the lowest interest rates possible, but you also don't want high inflation, which eats into the value of your dollar."

• Gretchen Rubin [12:19]: "It's like an Alphabet soup of different acronyms that people might be enrolled in."

• Gretchen Rubin [17:11]: "Do I think that there may be a chance that this happens in the future? Sure. But I'm not here holding my breath."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the critical issues addressed without needing to listen to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Gretchen Rubin]

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

[Brian Chung]

Hey, everybody, and welcome to here's the scoop from NBC News. Brian Chung here. And I am so excited to be in the host chair today because there is so much happening. We got the DOJ meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell as the controversy over the Epstein files continues to bubble. Columbia University settling with the Trump administration. And we say goodbye to a wrestling legend. But we gotta start, of course, with President Trump's attacks on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. It's the public falling out that could have huge implications for you and your money because Powell, he's the most important banker in the country, arguably the world. Trump appointed Powell to lead the Fed, which is the nation's central bank, in 2017. But more recently, he's been upset the Fed won't lower interest rates. So now he's taking it to the Fed's doorstep, literally, to take a closer look at the $2.5 billion renovation that he has criticized over recent weeks. Well, no one better to chat on this than my partner in crime, NBC News senior business correspondent Christine Romans. Hey, Christine.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Hi.

[Brian Chung]

Okay, so let's get into what is going on here because it's very, very unusual, right, for a president to show up at the Fed building.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I mean, it's only happened three Times. I think FDR, when he dedicated the Fed building in the 30s, one point during the and then George W. Bush signed, you know, did the swearing in of Ben Bernanke in 2006. That's it.

[Brian Chung]

That's it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

We've gone through the records. That is it. And now you have President Trump going uninvited to the Fed, essentially. Right. Going to do his own sort of spot check of a building renovation there.

[Brian Chung]

Remind us why it's important that the president doesn't show up at the Fed every day. Like it's an independent institution and they have to be separate.

[Elizabeth Craft]

But, like, why the president gets the ability to pick who's going to be the Fed chief and then that term is like years, Right. So that they, they don't have the political pressures from a white House or administration, they're left to just do their job. And their job is dictated by Congress. It's a dual mandate for inflation at an acceptable level, not too much inflation, and a job market that is durable. So jobs and inflation, that's, that's the only thing that's on their list to do. And they want to do that outside of the pressures of the White House. So they have their own security, they have their own funding. And that is why the United States has kind of the gold standard sort of to mixed metaphors of economies around the world.

[Brian Chung]

The gold standard went away in the 70s.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, that's, you know what I mean. But that's why the U.S. is the U.S. because it's got this independent Fed we've seen in his, even in the United States, but we've seen in Turkey and other places, when you start to cut interest rates because a leader wants you to, bad things almost always happen.

[Brian Chung]

Yeah, political pressure, bad for monetary policy. But now let's go into interior decoration, if you will, because that's kind of the crux of this argument that the President's trying to build for this wasteful spending from the Federal Reserve because it's the $2.5 billion project. The Fed owns up to that price tag as well. What is it about that that has the President riled up so much?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, now you've got the President and his allies who are sort of saying there's going to be rooftop, you know, gardens and expensive elevators and private dining. None of that stuff is, has made it through this process. All of those things have been jettisoned. I mean there are elevators, but they already were elevators. Now they're just fixing the elevators. The building was built in the 30s, as you know. You've been in this building, it's a big marble building built in Washington D.C. on soggy Washington D.C. ground. So they have found asbestos, they have found issues with the water table. They were trying to dig underneath the building. And the Inspector General of the Fed a couple of times has been reviewing along the way this, this project has not found any fraud or malfeasance. Just your standard over budget building project in D.C. yeah.

[Brian Chung]

And before we go any deeper, this is a good time to mention that I did used to work at the Federal Reserve. That was my first job. So I remember this is the Eccles building that, that we're talking about here, as you mentioned, a historic building, but I remember going into the Eccles building rarely. And actually they deliberately tried to place employees into annex buildings around Washington D.C. because of the asbestos and because of just the shanty standards of the offices that were in there. It did need a lot of work. But I think there's a lot of attention on the $2.5 billion tag. And even though you mentioned the inspector general didn't find an instance of fraud, the President said, if there is fraud, I might be able to do what?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, then he would be able to fire the Fed chief because the consensus is the President can't fire the Fed chief because the Fed chief won't lower interest rates. But he could potentially fire the Fed chief or remove him from that, that Fed chief role if they found fraud or malfeasance, if they had a cause.

[Brian Chung]

Yeah. And there is even the question of even if you try to fire the Fed chair, will that even do the job of getting interest rates lower? Because in the interim, while the court reviews this, the current vice chair would replace him, who is Philip Jefferson, who hasn't really shown an inclination to want to more aggressively cut interest rates.

[Elizabeth Craft]

There are 12 people who sit there and decide, Right. What they're going to do for interest rates. It's not just one guy. And until recently, it's been unanimous to stand pat on interest rates, to not cut interest rates. So you'd have to have a universe in which you would remove Jay Powell suddenly, the vice chair would be more amenable to cutting rates and then convince everybody else on the Fed to do the same thing. You know, you could have the opposite happen. You could have someone who is probably Trump cutting rates, and everybody else on the Fed votes the opposite way, and you don't get rate cuts anyway. You could also have a crisis of confidence about the independence of the Fed that could actually, what, Drive up interest rates, which is the opposite of what the President wants.

[Brian Chung]

Why should regular people even care about this falling out between Jay Powell and Trump, who was the person who appointed him to that role, by the way?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Brian Chung]

Like, why does this matter?

[Elizabeth Craft]

It matters for everyone for a couple of reasons. If you borrow money, right, you want the lowest interest rates possible, but you also don't want high inflation, which eats into the value of your dollar. Right. So you don't want a situation where the Fed is cutting interest rates and suddenly inflation spikes again. Okay, so great, now you've got lower interest rates, but you, you can't afford to buy anything because everything's so expensive. And you have this other problem. If you are a saver, you care about what happens here because the President wants to cut interest rates. And I don't think People haven't talked about this, Brian, So let's, let's talk about it.

[Brian Chung]

Let's talk about it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

You have 11 to 13,000 people every day turning 65 and heading toward retirement. Think about that. It's a record number. Those people are by and large savers. They are saving their money. They're taking money out of the stock market and putting it into high yield savings accounts so they can live on that money. Hey, guess what? Interest rates right now are good for them. You're in a universe where the President is demanding lower interest rates so that borrowers like companies and people and governments.

[Brian Chung]

He's talked a lot about mortgages.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Mortgages, right. But borrowers get lower rates and that's good and can juice the economy. But that hurts savers. So we haven't talked about the saver piece of it very much here, which I think is really interesting. For the first time in years, for the first time since the financial crisis, really savers, somebody, somebody who earns a dollar and saves the dollar actually gets paid to do that. It's been a long time since that's been the situation.

[Brian Chung]

And that's kind of a good reminder that when you talk about interest rates being lower, interest rates being higher, it's not that lower interest rate's always good, higher interest rates always bad people. Because also the times when you're usually aggressively cutting interest rates are usually when the economy is in really bad shape, which it's not right now.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So here's the brain Jenga I have to do in this scenario because you have the President saying this is a red hot perfect economy. It was cold as ice six months ago and it's red hot and it's the best it's ever been. It's on fire. It's great. Now cut interest rates three points. It's like, wait a minute, those two things don't go together. Also three point cut, which is what the President is asking for, is just when I ask Fed watchers and Wall street people, I mean, when we went through the COVID crisis, they cut rates two and a half percentage points. Imagine three, a three point cut. What that would say, that would say we're heading to a depression, we gotta cut rates.

[Brian Chung]

How do you think the story ends?

[Elizabeth Craft]

I don't know. I mean, I think the President has said it's unlikely that he would fire him. He recently said, a couple days ago, he said, well, he's almost out of there anyway, meaning he's gonna be out position in May of next year anyway. But I do think there's this public pressure campaign from the president and behind the scenes, the president's other advisors are like, let's just leave him in there. It's just going to be cleaner to leave him in there. Although it sure looks messy on the outside, doesn't it?

[Brian Chung]

Christine Romans, thanks so much.

[Elizabeth Craft]

You're welcome.

[Brian Chung]

All right, everyone, we're going to take a quick sec to pay our bills, which is perfect timing because when we're back, we we're going to talk about big changes to student loan forgiveness. With your rich BFF BRB taking over the helm of NBC Nightly News, a 75 year old broadcast, it's a great responsibility. Good evening, I'm Tom Yamas. You have to go out there to bring people at home closer to the store. Wildfires continue to be a threat. With that massive hurricane comes the massive response. The best reporters in our business know how to listen. And when you listen, you get the truth. For NBC News. For NBC News, For NBC News, I'm Tom Yamas. That's what we do every night.

[Gretchen Rubin]

NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas, evenings on NBC.

[Christine Romans]

This Supreme Court term isn't business as usual. It's a full blown battle over democracy. Justices are shattering precedent, grabbing power and even turning on their own. It's messy, it's high stakes and it's already reshaping how this country works. And our podcast, strict Scrutiny breaks it all down legally, clearly, and with just the right amount of side eye. New episodes drop every Monday. Subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Brian Chung]

And we're back with here's the scoop. Some big news for those trying to repay their loans. Just this week, the Education Department temporarily paused student loan forgiveness for borrowers enrolled in the income based repayment plan. Those IBRs, the they're massively popular for borrowers who can't afford to throw their whole paychecks into paying down their student debt because those IBRs set a fixed percentage of your income aside for student loan payments with full on forgiveness after a certain period of time. So it's no wonder that as of last year, 40% of this country's 33 million student loan borrowers are enrolled in these plans. That's according to the National Student Loan Data System and the gao. But the pause adds another layer of confusion for borrowers. President Trump's big beautiful bill phases out other student loan options. And still other payment options are undergoing legal challenges in court. Sound like a mess to you? Well, let's try to get some help from my friend and your rich BFF Vivian too, who by the way, is a New York Times bestselling author and the host of the Net Worth and Chill Pod. Hey, Vivian.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hey, Brian. So happy to be here to chat.

[Brian Chung]

So let's talk a little bit about just like zooming out because borrowers have had an emotional rollercoaster of confusion over the last few years over this, right?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, absolutely. And I mean, let's just be honest, this system has never been that clear cut and dry before. You know, some of the programs we have now, there was Pay P A Y E. There was Repay R E P A Y E. Then there was the save plan, which obviously was struck down by a federal court. Now we have Trump's plan called Rap R A P. And I think a lot of this jargon is actually making a confusing situation worse.

[Brian Chung]

I mean, you mentioned it's like an Alphabet soup of different acronyms that people might be enrolled in. People might not even know what they're enrolled in. Sometimes when I talk to my friends who are trying to pay back their student loans, they can't keep track of even what it's supposed to look like. When you talk to people or engagement people on your millions of followers across your social media accounts, what do you advise them to do when dealing with student debt?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I asked them to look at the actual numbers. Not all student loans are created equal. There are subsidized, unsubsidized loans. There are loans with fixed interest rates. There are ones that have variable ones, like depending on what kind of loan you got based on your or your family's credit score or what have you. And so my advice is always don't let the fact that you have student loans hold you back from living your life and still making other smart financial choices. But it is something that people have to consider. It's a huge, you know, huge factor. I actually recently worked on a study with my partners at SoFi. It's called the Cost of Admission 2025. And what was crazy to me, absolutely crazy to me, was the fact that if you actually look at the numbers, you're seeing that 68% of people would rather talk about their sex lives than their debt. But 88% of people that responded to this survey said that they've had to put something else in their life on hold because of student debt. You're telling me that nearly nine out of ten people have had to change their life because of their student loan payments and yet they still don't want to talk about it? We have to talk about it.

[Brian Chung]

Yeah. So let's recap that because that's really fascinating. The idea here is that student debt, especially for millennials and Gen Z, are such a boogeyman over the rest of their finances. Is it, is it dramatic to say it's the biggest financial crisis among that generation?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think it's one of the largest. I think the three things we really need to think about are the fact that the cost of an education has skyrocketed and people are taking on these monstrous debt loads to be able to pay for it. The cost of housing has exponentially increased. However, the third thing is that wages have stagnated. If you actually look on a inflation adjusted number, like we are not making as much as people did back in the day, however, everything costs more.

[Brian Chung]

And maybe that explains if we come back full circle here, the income based repayment plans. The reason why they're so popular is because living costs are so high that it's no longer feasible and the cost of going to school is so much higher that it's no longer feasible to just pay the fixed amount as originally stated on a, you know, 15 year plan where the payments are exactly the same.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. And I think that's also why so many young people feel like the generations above them, quote unquote, don't get it. Because our parents went to school for a couple thousand dollars and maybe they had a work study program that allowed them to help pay it off, or maybe they took on that debt but after they graduated they again put their head down. They got that job, they paid it off. But the numbers are very different. When you're paying back $5,000 versus $50,000 versus $100,000.

[Brian Chung]

And when you again talk to people about how to handle not just maybe necessarily student debt, but overall debt in an environment like this, what's the advice?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I always say use the rule of seven. So I actually encourage folks to rank their debt from highest to lowest interest rate. And you're going to make the minimum payment across everything just to you don't, you know, fall into the default zone but really prioritize paying down the debts that have over like 7% or over in terms of an interest rate. So things at the top of this list typically are credit cards, 20 to 30% APRs. Then you've got things like car loans, you got things like, you know, if you got a mortgage recently, you might have something with a 7% handle on it. If you got a federal subsidized loan, graduating college around when I did, like you might have like a 4 or 5%, like interest rate that's fixed, in which case you don't need to stress about paying it all off overnight. You can make the minimum payment and do the best you can. And then any additional funds you can start putting towards investing and start the rest of your life. Because at the end of the day, debt is a tool. It is not morally good or bad, but you need to look at the numbers. You need to make a plan and ultimately be smart about it. In the holistic picture of your financial.

[Brian Chung]

Journey, what is the biggest question you usually get about student loans?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hmm. Biggest question I get is probably, do I think they're going to be forgiven? And I give folks, what do you.

[Brian Chung]

What do you say to you? You don't have a crystal ball, what's.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Happening in D.C. exactly, exactly. And that's what I tell them. I'm like, listen, do I think that there may be a chance that this happens in the future? Sure. But I'm not here holding my breath. I do not have a crystal ball. And I certainly don't believe that any administration, whether it's Democratic, Republican, nobody's here to save me. I need to pay off my own debt. I'm not going to wait for loan forgiveness. If it happens, great. It is a cherry on the Sunday, but at the end of the day, I am the captain of my own ship and I'm going to figure it out.

[Brian Chung]

That's your rich BFF Vivian, too. Now onto some headlines. As the pressure grows on the Trump administration to release the Epstein files, top officials from the Justice Department are now meeting with Jeffrey Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell in Florida, where she's currently serving 20 years in prison. Here's NBC News national law enforcement and intelligence correspondent Tom Winter.

[Tom Winter]

What makes this so unusual today is that the deputy attorney general, somebody who presumably was involved in the memo that comes out saying there's no client list, there's no additional information to put out there. And one of the more significant things that's come out of this review is that there were no other individuals to be charged. But we kind of already knew that because they would have been charged already. And so the idea now that they're going to go back and conduct a review after they said that they've conducted a review, and to question Maxwell under terms that haven't yet been described to us, we don't know if they ever will be, just raises a question as far as, where are we going with all this?

[Brian Chung]

Back in D.C. democrats are trying to force votes in Congress to release the files The Republican led House, however, is already on summer recess and just uptown from here. Columbia University has agreed to pay $200 million to the federal government in a deal that will restore the majority of funding the Trump administration cut back in. The administration accused the university of not acting to address the harassment of Jewish students amid student protests over the war in Gaza. Columbia then agreed to a list of demands from the administration, including admissions reforms and a ban on masks. The university did not admit to wrongdoing as part of the deal, but said in a statement that reform was needed after acknowledging painful incidents for Jewish students and faculty. Columbia is one of many universities targeted by the administration. Another Harvard opted to sue the administration over similar cuts to funding, and that case is still pending. And Hulk Hogan, the professional wrestling legend who helped catapult the WWE into mainstream fame with his larger than life Persona and booming battle cry and what you gonna do when Hulkamania in the largest arms in the world run wild on you? Has died at 71. Born Terry Boa, Hogan rose to fame in the 1980s, captivating fans with his bulging biceps, handlebar mustache and unstoppable energy. Inside the ring, he headlined the first WrestleMania and battled giants like Andre the Giant and the Ultimate Warrior. Hogan became a household name, blurring the lines between athlete and entertainer. He starred in movies, launched a reality TV show, and opened his own beach themed retail empire. He turned pro wrestling into a global phenomenon, but his fame did not come without controversy. After the gossip website Gawker posted a sex tape of him, Hogan launched a privacy lawsuit that won him $140 million, effectively bankrupting the site, which shuttered months later. The WWE also temporarily cut ties with him in 2015 following reports that he had made racial slurs eight years prior. He was later re inducted into their hall of Fame. All right, that's going to do it for us here at here's the scoop for NBC News, I'm Brian Chum.

[Gretchen Rubin]

At this very moment, we are living through a series of cascading constitutional crises, rocketing up to the Supreme Court and shaking the foundations of American democracy.

[Christine Romans]

This is not a game of chicken where we back down from the Constitution like, that's not how this works.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm Dahlia Lithwick, host of Amicus Slate's podcast about the courts, the law, and the Supreme Court. I've been writing about SCOTUS and the law for more than 20 years, and each week on Amicus we draw on that deep experience to navigate these incredibly uncertain times. Search Amicus that's Am I C U s to listen.