Jeff Burton 'The Mayor': His NASCAR Legacy, Championing Safety Improvement, & Building A Partnership With NASCAR

Summary

Podcast Summary: Herm & Schrader – Episode Featuring Jeff Burton "The Mayor"

Episode Details:

• Title: Jeff Burton 'The Mayor': His NASCAR Legacy, Championing Safety Improvement, & Building A Partnership With NASCAR
• Hosts: Kenny Wallace and Jeff Burton
• Release Date: July 31, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Herm & Schrader, host Kenny Wallace sits down with Jeff Burton, affectionately known as "The Mayor" of NASCAR. The conversation delves deep into Jeff's illustrious racing career, his commitment to safety improvements within the sport, and his pivotal role in fostering a strong partnership with NASCAR through the Drivers Advisory Council (DAC). The episode is rich with personal anecdotes, professional insights, and memorable moments that highlight Jeff Burton's significant contributions to NASCAR.

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Jeff Burton's Personal Life and Man Cave ([02:35]–[05:39])

Kenny Wallace begins by exploring Jeff Burton's personal life, particularly his living arrangements and family dynamics:

• Man Cave Transformation: Jeff shares how he transformed what was once his children's playroom into his personal office and man cave. “[This is] kind of a little too formal, but, yeah, this is my man cave” ([03:26]).

• Balancing Family and Racing: The conversation highlights Jeff's harmonious relationship with his wife, Kim, and their shared commitment to their respective passions—racing for Jeff and horse farming for Kim. Jeff praises their mutual support: “They just work and it's... no different than racing” ([05:39]).

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NASCAR Career and Legacy ([02:49]–[32:27])

Jeff Burton reflects on his NASCAR journey, emphasizing his time with Jack Roush and the evolution of his career:

• Nickname "The Mayor": Jeff recounts how Clint Boyer dubbed him "The Mayor" during a ceremony at California Speedway, a nickname that has since become a respected moniker in the sport ([10:01]).

• Working with Jack Roush: Jeff elaborates on his relationship with Jack Roush, highlighting the autonomy Roush granted him to manage his team. “He let us run that racing, hire who we wanted to hire... it was an amazing experience” ([11:33]).

• Career Challenges and Growth: Jeff discusses the struggles he faced early in his career, including being fired multiple times for performance issues. His turning point came when he decided to take control of his career, leading to significant successes: “It was my success, but it was also ultimately my undoing as well” ([17:57]).

• Career Statistics and Achievements: Kenny highlights Jeff's impressive stats—21 NASCAR Cup wins, 254 top tens, 27 Xfinity wins, and 153 top tens—cementing his status as one of NASCAR's 75 greatest drivers ([28:57]).

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Retirement and Post-Racing Career ([32:27]–[37:24])

Kenny inquires about Jeff's retirement from NASCAR:

• Gradual Transition: Jeff explains that he never officially announced his retirement but gradually faded out of full-time racing. “I felt like that team was in a good spot and I had an opportunity with NBC” ([32:27]).

• Post-Racing Roles: Jeff mentions his roles as a consultant and occasional driver for other teams, ensuring his continued involvement in the sport even after stepping back from full-time racing.

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Championing Safety Improvements ([41:55]–[46:28])

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Jeff Burton's pivotal role in enhancing safety measures within NASCAR:

• Full Containment Seats: Jeff details his initiative to develop full containment seats after witnessing fatal accidents. “The first time that the head was contained, fully contained, was Daytona in my car” ([41:55]).

• Collaboration with Brian Butler: Jeff collaborated with Brian Butler to create a head containment system, which was first implemented in his car at Daytona, significantly improving driver safety ([43:16]).

• Impact on the Sport: Jeff emphasizes the importance of these safety measures in potentially saving lives and preventing severe injuries among drivers.

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Involvement with NASCAR's Drivers Advisory Council (DAC) ([62:50]–[67:49])

Jeff Burton discusses his instrumental role in establishing the Drivers Advisory Council:

• Formation of DAC: Recognizing the need for driver representation, Jeff spearheaded the creation of the DAC to provide a structured pathway for drivers to communicate their concerns and suggestions to NASCAR ([62:50]).

• Collaboration and Impact: The DAC has fostered better communication between drivers and NASCAR, leading to improvements in race quality and safety. “We created a clear pathway of communicating... it's working” ([65:53]).

• Future Initiatives: Jeff expresses optimism about ongoing and future collaborations aimed at enhancing the sport for both drivers and fans.

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Harrison Burton's Racing Career ([54:25]–[62:03])

A heartfelt segment focuses on Jeff Burton's son, Harrison Burton, and his burgeoning NASCAR career:

• Early Success: Harrison has shown remarkable talent from a young age, winning numerous races in various divisions, including ARCA and late models ([54:43]).

• Challenges at the Cup Level: Despite initial successes, Harrison has faced challenges in maintaining consistent performance at the Cup level, attributed to factors like reduced practice opportunities during the COVID-19 pandemic ([55:15]).

• Jeff's Support and Pride: Jeff expresses immense pride in Harrison's perseverance and dedication, recognizing the difficulties young drivers face in today's competitive environment ([56:13]).

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Relationship with Dale Earnhardt Jr. ([70:36]–[73:56])

Jeff Burton shares insights into his relationship with fellow NASCAR legend Dale Earnhardt Jr.:

• Professional Collaboration: Post-retirement, Jeff has formed a strong working relationship with Dale Jr., collaborating on television broadcasts and mutually supporting each other’s ventures ([73:04]).

• Shared Passion for Racing: Despite initial unfamiliarity, Jeff and Dale Jr. have developed a camaraderie based on their shared love for racing and commitment to the sport’s growth ([73:56]).

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Opinions on NASCAR's Current State and Future ([73:56]–[82:05])

Jeff Burton provides a candid assessment of NASCAR's evolution and future prospects:

• Improvements and Optimism: Through the DAC, Jeff believes NASCAR is making strides toward enhancing race quality and driver representation. “I have tons of optimism about where this sport, the effort being put in to making this sport the best it's ever been” ([73:56]).

• Next Gen Car Impact: Jeff views the introduction of the Next Gen car as a positive change, fostering closer and more competitive racing by leveling the playing field. “It's giving some teams a chance that they wouldn't had a chance otherwise” ([77:38]).

• Emphasis on Fair Enforcement: Jeff stresses the importance of strict rule enforcement to maintain integrity within the sport, comparing NASCAR’s regulatory needs to other high-stakes industries ([82:05]).

• Future of Short Track Racing: He advocates for improvements in short track racing while maintaining the successes seen in mile-and-a-half and super-speedway racing, highlighting the necessity of understanding NASCAR's history to inform future developments ([80:49]).

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Kenny Wallace and Jeff Burton reflecting on their shared history and the enduring legacy Jeff has built both on and off the track. Jeff’s dedication to driver safety, his influential role in the DAC, and his support for the next generation of racers underscore his reputation as "The Mayor" of NASCAR. The conversation not only celebrates Jeff's achievements but also provides valuable insights into the ongoing evolution of NASCAR, emphasizing the importance of collaboration, safety, and adaptability in ensuring the sport’s continued success.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff Burton on his man cave: “This is kind of a little too formal, but, yeah, this is my man cave” ([03:26]).
• Jeff Burton on the Drivers Advisory Council: “We created a clear pathway of communicating... it's working” ([65:53]).
• Jeff Burton on safety improvements: “The first time that the head was contained, fully contained, was Daytona in my car” ([41:55]).
• Jeff Burton on the Next Gen car: “It's giving some teams a chance that they wouldn't had a chance otherwise” ([77:38]).
• Jeff Burton on NASCAR’s future: “I have tons of optimism about where this sport, the effort being put in to making this sport the best it's ever been” ([73:56]).

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Final Thoughts: This episode of Herm & Schrader offers a comprehensive look into Jeff Burton's profound impact on NASCAR, both as a driver and as an advocate for safety and fair play. Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the complexities of the sport and the individuals who strive to make it better for everyone involved.

Transcript

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[Kenny Wallace]

Hello everyone and welcome back to Kenny Conversation. Brought to you by jegs, the leader in high performance aftermarket car parts. Remember to go to JEGS.com for everything you need to fix your vehicles up. Well, my next guest is somebody that I started racing with in nascar. He got the best of me because he is better than me. He went further than me. But I love him to death because I think about him all the time. The great Jeff Burton. Jeff, how are you doing my friend?

[Jeff Burton]

I'm good. Hern, how are you? Everything good?

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, my hair is getting a little long. I need to get a haircut. My hairs.

[Jeff Burton]

Hey man, you proud of them hairs, right? You gotta be proud of those hairs.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, you have a nice surrounding there, a nice background. Where are you talking to us from today?

[Jeff Burton]

Yes, I got. You know when, when this room was. When, when Paige and Harrison were in this house, this was kind of their room. This is where all their crap was in Other words, you know how kids are, right? They got. Especially my kids. For some reason, they have way more too much crap. So this was their playroom, and when they got out of the house, I turned it into my room. And so it's. I've got office, and now I have an office. And it's where I do these kind of things. And I. And it's also where, you know, Kim and I need some separation from time to time. I can come up here and I got a big screen television. I can watch races, do whatever, sleep, take a nap, you know, kind of get away.

[Kenny Wallace]

So you're telling me this is your man cave?

[Jeff Burton]

This is my. This is kind of ashamed of this man cave. This is not a keg or anything in here. It's kind of a little too formal, but, yeah, this is my man cave.

[Kenny Wallace]

So I guess she has her horses and you have your deal. People say to me all the time, how do you and your wife. Another Kim. My Kim. They ask how we get along. I said, well, that's simple. I go up to the race shop, she goes downstairs, and she has crafts. And at night we meet in bed. Now, every once in a while, I drive along some of the back roads there in North Carolina. I will see your wife professionally messing with those horses. That's a pretty big deal, huh?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, it is a big deal. We live right around the corner from where I used to live. And years ago, we found this piece of property. It was a blessing, and it's amazing that it was here. And we found it. And so. And then the second blessing was the property next to us had a. The gentleman that owned it had a prize bull, and he kept his. He built a barn for his bull. And so we rented it for a while with Kim's horses. And then Kim decided she wanted to try to turn it into a. Make a business out of it. So we ended up acquiring that piece of property, which is right next door to this one where we live. And so I got the house in the middle, and on that side of his is the barn and the paddocks and the ride and ring and all that stuff. And on that side of it is my shop. So we go out of the garage, we go out of the driveway. She hangs a left, I hang a right, and we go to our perspective areas, right? And meet here at night and. And she spent. They work. It's crazy. You think racing people are nuts, Equestrian people are nuts. I mean, because it is. The work is unbelievable. It never stops. It's 24, 7 you don't just walk out of the door and turn the lights off because horse is sick. You got a horse that's having a problem. I mean, they're up there all hours of the night. In some cases, it is wild how much work they do, but they love it, and they're trying to make a business out of it. They're doing pretty. They're not quite there yet, but they're working. I mean, the hours they work is crazy, and it's fun to see them have a passion for something.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, we're definitely going to get to you, and I think we're going to have a wonderful conversation. But you mentioned that that room you're in used to be Paige and Harrison. Now this Paige writing is. She's still riding. And of course, Harrison's a NASCAR cup driver.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. So all the horse stuff started with. With my wife. Rode a little bit when she was young, but not much. But my. All the horse stuff started with my daughter, and then my. My wife followed it. So my daughter works up there. She's. She's learning how. She's very good with the animals and very good. And she's learning how to manage the, you know, the people and. And how to do that ultimately she'll run it all. She's really close to doing it now. It's amazing talent with, With. With the animals. I tell everybody my wife, My daughter went to college, sent my daughter to private school for 12 years, and then a private college for four years, and she works in a barn. And, you know, she came to me, she's like, dad, you know, I'm not really happy working in an office. I really would like to. And I'm like, look, you're talking to a guy that drove race cars for a living and melted metal together for a living. If that's what you want to do and that makes you happy, do it. Because life's too short to be miserable. And so she. Absolutely. She loves it. She's able to apply the business stuff that she learned in school up there. But it's no different than racing, Kenny. And you know as well as I do the people that will get up in the morning don't have to look at the clock. Don't look at the clock when it's night. You know when to come home. It's just a passion. That's what it takes to be successful with that. It's. It's so much like racing, it's crazy.

[Kenny Wallace]

Do you find in some strange way that has it given you something to do your Wife's side of life, or. I mean, it's like, okay, honey, I'm all in with you. Or do you find yourself running off the Harrison or NBC? Sounds to me like you've kind of taken a liking to the horses or not.

[Jeff Burton]

Well, that's their thing. I mean, look, I afford it because I, you know, because, you know, if. Look, if. If. If. I don't care if they want to do it and they put effort into it the way they put effort into it. I don't care what it is. I support it. And. And, you know, you've known Kim forever. She. She is, you know, she is a worker. She is. You know, I think people, you know, people don't recognize, you know, you think that they see her on pit box on Sunday and they think she's into glamor and fashion. She's in the cowboy boots. And, I mean, she's a worker. She just works and it's. And, you know, my daughter's the same way. So they're blue collar kind of people, and they just work. They like to work and they. But that's their thing. I don't get into the horses. I don't get into it. I will not sit on something that weighs 1200 pounds and has a brain that big.

[Kenny Wallace]

Right. Well, my mama would say dynamite comes in small packages, and I think Kim is dynamite. You and I. You and I raised. Yeah, that was kind of funny, right? Well, you and I raced together, and in my early days, I would see Kim on the pit box, maybe under the caution flag. I'd look in there and I'd see her cheering you on. So I really admire you and your wife and your family because I feel like, you know, my wife Kim, and, you know, we kind of mirrored each other, you know, where our wives were really getting us started. Hell, we. I mean, you and I, back in the Bush grand national days, we were just starting out. Well, all right, enough of them. It's about you right now, my friend. Nicknames are awesome because you have the Intimidator Earnhardt, of course, they nickname, Rusty Rubberhead because he. He wrecked and kept on going. But nicknames are awesome. I'm the herminator and you are the mayor. But I think your nickname is one of the most respectful nicknames in all of sports. The mayor. When do you remember the sport giving you that nickname? When do you remember the first time you came up for air and went, what the hell? Tell me?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, I remember it like it was yesterday. Clint Boyer did that to me. Did he ass yeah, he, he's. Man, he's messed up a lot of stuff for me. Long, few long days after hanging out with him, we, we had it. We did a. We were at. I think we're at California Speedway. And it was my. Whatever rate. I don't remember the number. It was X amount of races, NASCAR races I had won and a run, and there was, you know, a little ceremony or something for me, and Clint was there. He was my teammate at the time, and he popped that on me in front of the media, you know, and it stuck like, you know, he threw it against the wall and it hadn't come down since. And that's where it started. You know, he, he, he gave that to me.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, I agree with it because I was always very impressed. You're, you're very analytical, and when the media would come to you, you had all the right answers. I mean, I, I felt like you were 30 going on 60. You had a good business sense. With that being said, I remember a great quote by Jack Roush, and you drove for Jack forever. And I, I kind of think that he was bragging on you. I remember Jack saying, jeff wants my job. I'm just not ready to give it up yet. You remember that? I can tell. So I don't know what that was all about.

[Jeff Burton]

Was, was he.

[Kenny Wallace]

And I took it as, you're smart and you can run the team right now. Do you remember that time?

[Jeff Burton]

I. I do. One of the fondest memories. The thing I loved about Jack Roush is he was a hard, He's a hard man. And he wasn't brought up easily. He got everything he earned. He earned everything that he has, rather. And, you know, he, it's amazing what he built. It is absolutely amazing what he started with and what he built at Roush Industries and Roush Racing. It's, it's, it's, it's an American success story. Yeah. And, and the thing that I always respect about Jack so much is that when he hired me, he, he said, he said, look, I'm talking to Buddy Parrott about being a crew chief. Like, how do you feel about that? I'm like, yeah, you damn right. Because at the very least, we're gonna have a great time. I mean, the very least with Buddy, we're going to, we're going to have fun racing. And so when he, when we started that team in 96, he made it ours. He made it so that the only thing he said was, you know, you're going to get your transmissions and rear ends from, from From Liberty, where. Where the. Where the. The 6 and the 16 were. You are going to get engines from. From Livonia, Michigan. Roush. Roush engines. Other than that, it's your. You guys do it. Do it the way you want to do it. You cannot do it in conjunction with Liberty. You have to do it on your own. That was the orders. And he let us run that racing, hire who we wanted to hire, build the race cars, how we wanted to build them, without question. He gave us how many we could build. We had a budget, for sure. We had a budget, but he let us do it, and he charged us with doing that. He would get out of your way and let you do it when you screwed up. He was there to help you the first time. The second time, he was there to punish you. Right. And it taught me. I became a man working for Jack Roush. It just was an amazing experience. And it went so far that there were times he and I would butt heads. We would really go at it. And one time, he walked me out of the front of the shop, right next to Rusty's shop, Hensky, right there in Mooresville. Right. Yeah, he walked me out of the front of the shop and he. He walked it. He walked us into the. On the sidewalk, and he pointed at the sign in front of the building. He said, what does that sign say? And I said, it says Roush Racing. And he said, yes, it does. It does not say Jeff Burton Racing. It says Roush Racing. And as long as it says Roush Racing, we're going to. I'm the final say. But the point in that was that he let it be. I felt like it was Jeff Burton racing. And I would fight him and push him, and he would. And he would finally get to the point where, okay, enough. We're doing it my way. But he would give me the opportunity to argue, to disagree. And so, yeah, there was a while I did. I did want his job. And he was. He was. I was. He was smart enough to give me enough rope to let me run, and then he would reign me in, and it was just an amazing experience.

[Kenny Wallace]

So. I remember those days. Frankie Stoddard was your crew chief.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

And you. And you two were glued together. You were winning everything. You've got 21 NASCAR cup wins, 254 top tens. Now, we're going to get to your stats later. But I'm sitting here looking at this, and to me, listening to you right now, Jack says, okay, you. You and Frankie run the team. And you giving that many wins, you Would have to think that it would. You felt pretty comfortable because you're. You're getting the job done. So when. When. When you did go head to head with him, you had to feel comfortable because you had to feel like you were delivering. You were the man, because you were delivering well.

[Jeff Burton]

So a couple things happened, and, Kenny, you know how it is, man. You. You evolve, right? Over time, you evolve and you change. And what happened to me early in my career was I let people. Some people run over me. I let some people that I drove for run over me, and. And I was the guy that was gonna make everybody happy and. And was gonna not cause trouble, and that wasn't working out. Yeah, you know, that. That was. That was going to get me fired. As a matter of fact, it did get me fired. I got fired several times, and I got fired for things that. For lack of performance, in which the only thing I was doing was sitting in the seat and driving it. And this wouldn't drive like it wouldn't, you know, or it might have for somebody else, but I couldn't make it. And so, you know, I let some people run over me, not just with decisions, but with other things as well. And I finally said, enough. You know, enough. If we're gonna. If I'm gonna have success or failure, at least I'm gonna have some say in it. And it got to the point where it was kind of do or die in my career and, you know, things aligned. Don't. I don't want to make it sound like it was some grand plan, because it wasn't. Things worked out when they looked like they weren't going to multiple times and. But I just got to the point where, you know, to hell with this. To hell with being told what I'm going to do all the time and not having to say, I understand. You're my boss. I get it. You're my boss. Got to work for you. But I'm going to try to have a say and try to help direct what it is that I think I'm good at or. And say the hell out of the things that I think I'm not good at. But that evolved over time. And then Jack. When I got to Jack, it just all unleashed because he was willing to let me do that. And I was in a place in my life where I was. I was ready to do it, and it had enough of doing it the other way, which ultimately, by the way, was the end of my career as well, you know, because things changed so quickly that I wasn't smart enough to, you know, how am I going to sit in a room with four engineers and tell them they're wrong? Because they, you know, like, it just evolved. And so that was my success, but it was also ultimately my undoing as well.

[Kenny Wallace]

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[Kenny Wallace]

Man, these Kenny conversations really help me mentally because my wife said to me all the time, you, you say yes, you need to learn to say no. Your team's running over you. You built your own cars, honey. You know what to do. Why don't you do it? And I felt just like you. I felt like if I bucked the system, you know, I wished I could have been a little bit more like my brother because, you know, he was, he ran, you know, he ran Penske racing. But.

[Jeff Burton]

And hey, look, and that's, that's where that, that's Rusty Mark. You know, those guys, like, they were my heroes because they knew what shocks were on the car, they knew what springs were in the car. When I looked up and recognized I had to beat them. Like, I didn't. Even as weird as it sounds, like Earnhardt was on a different stratus, like he was out there. And that's nothing against Rusty and fart because they're. But. But they were the guys that I needed to beat. And when I looked at how they were conducting their business, it was. They were in it. They were making decisions. They were. They knew it was in the car. They knew how the bodies were hung. They knew they were in it. And. And that's what you needed to do, in my opinion, at that time in our sport. That's. That's where the success was. And. And look, I. Rusty, while your brother. Your brother at Dover, I couldn't quality. I couldn't qualify to save my ass. I was horrible qualifying, and I was sitting next to him in the garage in Dover and I said, rusty, what am I doing wrong? Like, why can't I drive this thing? And he said, well, let me see what you got. You know, we used to have her. We used to have our setups on a sheet of paper. Like it wasn't a. You know. And I said. He said, you gonna qualify that? I said, that's my intention. And he. He said. He said, well, that. You're not going to qualify well. And he set my car up in the floor of the garage in the garage at Dover. He said, put this, this, this, this, this, this in it. Put this nose weight in it. Wrote it all down. I gave it to my guys. We put it in. I mean, that's how it used to be. Yeah. And. And I still qualify bad. But. But those were the people that I was. Had this super high respect for because Rusty was in there. You know, I pitted next to him. I saw his. I saw the way he interacted with his team. I saw. Which is why when. When I got a chance to work with Buddy Parrot, I'm like, oh, yeah. Because I knew Buddy was all. He was going to be good with me being heavily involved. And so that's, you know, that's the guys that I looked up to and still look up to because they're the ones that, you know, they just didn't sit in the race car and mash the gas. They had something to do with the vehicle itself.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. So a comment and then a question. You and I grew up in an era where the driver had to take care of his own chassis. Rusty used to joke with me if. If I started the race and I got 30 laps into it and I got real loose, he said, well, Herman, it's your fault because you're. You were the last one to drive it. Smart ass statement. But he was right. So what you're saying is we grew up in an era where you looked over here, and here was Mark Martin, you know, and here was Rusty. They were setting their own cars up and you felt like, hell if I'm gonna keep up with them, I gotta have a lot to do with my chassis too. So that's my comment. My question is this. When did you feel that era changing to where there was so much, you know, coil binding, the right front, we're pulling the nose down. I know all this stuff. I'm just wanting you to answer it. When did that happen? When did you find that happen and how did you deal with that?

[Jeff Burton]

So. So, well, it was the, it was the, it was what ended the, the Frank Stoddard, Jeff Burton relationship. It was because that was evolving. Look, I remember we were at Richmond testing and Daryl Walter walked by me and he said, three fives and a seven or something like that.

[Kenny Wallace]

Left front, right front, left rear.

[Jeff Burton]

What the hell are you talk. Right? And then, and then Steve park won Rockingham, you know, coal bound. And, and how are you gonna make this work? Like, what does this mean? And I, I, I completely changed. We completely changed the way, understanding that that arrow and center of gravity, we always knew center of gravity matter. But we did that by building the car. We didn't do that by setting the car up. Right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, get the lead low.

[Jeff Burton]

Now you're maximizing. Now you're maximizing center of gravity and arrow with not just how you hang the body and not how you build the chassis and the parts you bolt on it, but how the car is ultimately set up. It changed everything for me. It changed everything. And I vividly remember Darryl Walter walking by me and saying that, and I chased him down like, what the hell are you talking about? And then when Steve park won Rockingham, you know, coal bound, that was all the rumor, but it turned out to be true. And then it started this game about, well, not game. It started this massive effort on how do you get there? And it was a major change in the way the sport worked.

[Kenny Wallace]

And the cars got really low in the front. And then the rules changed. We had a ride height rule, and here we are to this day. And, you know, I really liked what you said. I just learned a little bit. I would say the sport really changed what you're saying right now because we, we had to rebuild the race cars. Okay. Now we're going to run them super low. So now we got too much angle and too much camber gain in the right front. And now they're rebuilding the A frame purchase. So you do bring up a Good point.

[Jeff Burton]

Everything's bottoming out. Everything. You know, like, to hell with testing. Let's just stay at home and we'll just keep raising stuff up so it doesn't hit the racetrack. I mean, that. You know what I mean? Like, you had chassis sitting in the floor that no longer work because the frame rails are dragging the. I mean, it. And that started this whole set of rules. Right? And so when. When. When fans or people say, well, it needs to go back like it used to be. Well, it can't.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

It's impossible. You cannot put it back like it used to be because the genie's out of the bottle. Yeah. It isn't that the rules change. Is that. That we got smarter.

[Kenny Wallace]

We did it.

[Jeff Burton]

Yes, we did it. And so. Or they did it. I wasn't smart enough to do it. And. And so you can't. If you had a. If, you know, cars need to be back like they used to be, if you brought Midnight and whatever them damn race cars names were, whatever they were back and you brought them back and put them on the racetrack, we would screw it up. Yeah. Like, you can't build enough rules to make it so we wouldn't screw it up. So the genie's out of the bottle. Everybody's a lot smarter. Engineering and understanding of aerodynamics, all that. It is what it is. I hear it in dirt racing. I hear it in dirt racing. I got aerotite. I get behind another car, it's hard to pass. Happens in Martinsville. Happens in late mile races. It happens all over the country now because we're learning and have learned how to maximize grip and how to. I mean, it's. You're never going to change it. It's not going to go back.

[Kenny Wallace]

I. I gotta apologize to the fans tuning in here to listen to you, because I can remember Matt Kenseth saying to me, I'm looking for mechanical grip. When I'm behind somebody, I still want my car to turn. And I went, oh, that's interesting. And I remember when that coming in. So when you're behind somebody, you got no air to your nose. And that's when we were, you know, running a 900, 100 in the right front and whatever it was. But. Good, good point, Jeff. You. You reminded me and everybody out there that was the pivotal point when the sport changed, was the nickname was Three Fives and a Seven. Pair of Five Hundreds in the front. 500 lefters. Good stuff. Well, listen, it's time for me, and we do this every Kenny conversation, and it seems like a really good time because you are. You are very good. You're great. And I enjoy this time at Kenny conversation. This is where I put my glasses on. 200, by the way. Yeah, there we go. You want to read. You want to read with me how great you are? Okay. Jeff Burton right now, looking good at 56 years old. He's the mayor, one of NASCAR's 75 greatest drivers. Now, Jeff, I'm going to read a lot more, but I want to comment on that. There's thousands of NASCAR race car drivers. Thousands. And you have been chosen as one of the 75 best, greatest 695 NASCAR races over 22 years. Now feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong.

[Jeff Burton]

I wouldn't know.

[Kenny Wallace]

Come on now.

[Jeff Burton]

Those. I wouldn't. I would.

[Kenny Wallace]

21 NASCAR cup wins, 254 top tens. Damn. That's getting it, man. 27 Xfinity wins, 153 top tens. You made four truck starts. That's a story right there. But we're gonna wind it down right here because I feel like this, this tells everybody how great you were and why you were chosen one of NASCAR's 75 greatest drivers. You are a two time winner of our granddaddy, one of our races, which is the Coca Cola 600. You won it 19.99 in 2001. And then I'm sure you're going to agree, this is the one you really liked. In 1999, you won the Southern 500. The lady in black too tough to tame. So I say the same thing to all the racers. When I read those stats off to you, where's your mind go? What do you think about.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, man. Honestly, Kenny, it's. I'm, you know, I was really, I was really fortunate because I didn't really have a lot of bush level success, right? I won a bunch of late mile races, but I didn't. I didn't win a lot of bush grand national races in the early going. What's that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want them later. And, and I got. I got some opportunities that just fell my way and multiple times I thought my career was over. And I'm talking about late in the year and things happened and I ended up. Ended up in a car, ended up driving. And you know what? I feel like I did a really good job was on executing on opportunities, right? And like those top tens, I mean, that's, you know me, Kenny. That's really what I was about, right? Like, I wasn't as fast as Rusty. I wasn't as Fast as Mark. Those guys have elite. You know, Jeff Gordon, those guys had a, have elite speed. I wasn't, I wasn't that I would worry the hell out of you, you know, for 500 miles. I mean, that was what my strength was. And, and so I feel like I got. I feel like I got a lot out of my career with less talent than Mark and Rusty and some of those guys. I was not as good as they were. I, I honestly. Mark will say he wasn't as good as anybody. He's full of. I really wasn't. And, and they just had more, they had more elite speed than I did. So I'm really proud of what I did because I felt like I ground. I ground out a career and, and, and, and did it kind of with a blue collar, a blue collar mentality.

[Kenny Wallace]

I'm going to go different direction here because this is just what's in my mind. I'm not a journalist. We do Kenny conversation because it's fun and it was a friend of mine's idea. And I'm like, okay. And then we're having fun doing it. But I don't remember you ever saying you were retiring from nascar. Was there an event or. Did you ever say. Did you ever say I'm retiring? Because I just. I don't remember it.

[Jeff Burton]

No, I, you know, I, I drove. I, I wanted, I want, I wanted to run one more year full time is what I really wanted to do. And that just didn't work out. It was the right time to leave. It was the right time for me. It was the right time for Richard. I was driving for Richard Childress at the time, whom I have a ton of respect for. He had. Ryan Newman was ready to come in and Ryan was ready to roll. And I felt like that team was in a good spot and I had an opportunity with NBC. It all worked out. And then I did run some races for, for Michael Walter. I was, Was hired by Michael to come in as kind of a consultant to, to help that team. And, and, and then I drove some races when. For Tony. When Tony, Tony had a problem. I drove some, some races for him. But no, I never really officially retired. I kind of faded away. There was. Which was fine, you know, like it. I wasn't real sure I was wanting to be done and I wasn't sure I was wanting to be done until I was fully done for like a year, you know, And I recognize I'm not as good as I need to be. I didn't know. I don't know why you know, that's a weird. It's weird, Kenny. Like, I don't have no idea why I couldn't be successful in my last two years of racing. It wasn't desire, it wasn't effort, it wasn't. I don't. I just wasn't getting it done. And I was fighting and believed I could and was working my guts out and bringing every bit of effort I knew, but the results just weren't there and I had no idea why.

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[Kenny Wallace]

Jeff, here we go again. Because on Kenny conversation, I've been lucky, very lucky and humbled to interview, have conversations with the greats. I'm talking, you know, all of them. And, and we are all the same. We are so damn hard on ourselves here. I just read off these stats that, hell, I would cut maybe three of my fingers off that and, and all the greats go back to those times that just weren't so great. Why do we do that?

[Jeff Burton]

Well, I mean, look, you and I. You and I, I watched you work. I watched you when you were driving for your brother. You were intimately involved with that race team. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't this thing that you would come in and there was a race at 7 o' clock and you would show up at 5 and you would qualify and race at 7. It was, it was.

[Kenny Wallace]

I was driving the truck and trailer in Torah.

[Jeff Burton]

Yes. It was commitment. It was dedication. Yeah. It was all. It was your entire being. And look, our wives and I've told my kids, I've been straight up with them. Y' all came second. I'm sorry. I mean, if that hurts your feelings, you need to understand it that it's not that I didn't love you, but at the end of the day, I had my kiln. Was Kim was the one that made you guys number one. She allowed me to make. Let you be number two. And by the way, she was number two. And racing came first. And our wives knew it. They knew it. They might not want to admit it, but they knew it. It had to come first. And, you know, you and I were good race car drivers, but we were successful because we had a damn high work ethic. Yes. And that's how it had to be. And so when you were even today, the way you run your dirt races, right. You don't just show up and drive, you know, you do it all by. Yes. And so, so it's, it's, it's who you are. Yeah. So when it's who you are, you, you can't walk away from the bad times. You can't just say, ah, like it's part of you. And, and, yeah, and, and, you know. Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Bad times are devastating.

[Jeff Burton]

Ah, people's, you know. God, it must have been fun racing. Hell, no, it wasn't fun. Fun is not the right word. It was intense. It was exhilarating. It was nauseating at times. It was terrifying. It was grat. It was all of these things, but fun wasn't in the list. And so it wasn't fun because you knew those moments were coming. And you knew that if you didn't work every, if you didn't make it number one, like, now I can lay on this couch and take a nap. Yeah, when in 1998, you think I was laying on that couch taking a nap?

[Kenny Wallace]

You're worried to death. Breaking out in hives, running to the shop.

[Jeff Burton]

There's no way.

[Kenny Wallace]

So, you know, that reminds me, you know, I admire you back then, I wanted to outrun you and I couldn't. But later on in life, you said a quote, and I, it just reminded me when I was listening to you intently and I wrote it down here, and I love this quote. And you, I want to know if you remember this. Somebody said to you about youth, and you looked at them and you said, would I want to be 22 years old again? And you said, hell no. When we look back at ourselves, it was brutal, wasn't it?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. Look, I, I, I, I've said it multiple times. My career Almost came to an end several times. And one year, I mean, I never. I woke up. I woke up with a broken back one time, wrecked a late model car, broke my back and knocked me out. And I woke. I was awake, but I wasn't really conscious.

[Kenny Wallace]

What track was this?

[Jeff Burton]

Tell me a little bit about Orange County. I, I just busting my ass and a race car that I, That I helped build and a seat that I put in the car and seat belts that I put in the car, and I did it wrong. And, and, oh, I, I, I had. I didn't have the belts running over a bar or anything. I just had them running over my shoulder. So when I hit it just, you know, it just compacted me and it crushed. Crushed some vertebrae. And I woke up. I woke up in rescue squad going to the. The Durham Hospital, a race in Orange county. And in a late model. And even then, I, I wasn't, I never contemplated, well, I'm going to quit. Like, it wasn't, it didn't even enter my mind. But one year, my second full year of Xfinity as my second, actually, I guess it was really my first full year, but second, second year trying to win all the races. I get about three quarters of the way through, and Kenny, I was done. Like, I was emotionally, physically done. Couldn't do anymore. Couldn't. I was exhausted. I was. You know, my. Kim's dad is a physician. He wanted to put me in the hospital, and I couldn't. You know what I mean? I can't. I can't do that. I gotta keep going. And that was the only year that I'm like, is this really worth it? You know, like, is that really. Is it really worth it? And, And, But I got. I got through it. But, man, those people just don't. They just don't understand how hard it is. They see the. If you're racing on Sunday or on Saturday on television, they see that, yeah, no idea what went on before you got to the racetrack. And, and it is, it is a. It's a great way to make a living. I just bragged. I didn't brag, but I was just told a story about, you know, my horses, my horse farm, and, you know, I mean, without racing, I don't have any of that stuff. But, but it was. Every bit of it was earned. I can promise you that.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, so I listen to you intently, and I do my best to write notes down. I stress over what I'm gonna say, but you told me just now, something that I thought about is it fair. Do I remember this right? Were you the first NASCAR driver to ever have a full containment seat at Daytona? I remember you coming into Daytona, the July race, with all of us looking at your car and you had this crazy contraption in there. And now that I look back at it, I'm thinking to myself, was he the first one to have a full containment seat?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, so it was, it was the. It. So, so we had four driving for Ford and they had had a seminar, safety seminar. Remember? We, we had several. Adam, Adam got killed. Tony Roper got killed. Kenny Irwin Jr. Got killed. You know, we had these, these horrible deaths and for, and, and it just wasn't right. I mean. And you know, racer's eye was, you know, just shrug it off, right? It was, it wasn't to be dangerous.

[Kenny Wallace]

Don't do nothing.

[Jeff Burton]

So. So, so Ford. And I don't remember the timing, so, but I don't remember the timing of it, but Ford had a safety seminar and, and had this conversation about how IndyCar seats are different than the NASCAR type seats. And, and I started looking at pictures about, you know, their heads were contained at that time and why can't we do that? And so prior to that, we had done the. Remember, Simpson built the Burton net. You know, it was a net that went down the side.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, my God, Yes, I forgot about that. Nets on both sides of us.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. So. Well, it started on the left because a Jerry Nadu had a situation and there had been talk about it and I think even you may have been in a situation in New Hampshire. Where did the driver's helmet make contact with the wall? Did that happen?

[Kenny Wallace]

Mine did.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. And, and, and it, I mean, it hurt you badly. It hurt Jerry Nadu, obviously, very badly. And so how.

[Kenny Wallace]

But go ahead.

[Jeff Burton]

I'm all right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Bad deal.

[Jeff Burton]

So, you know, we, so we built this net, me and Rambo that, that worked at Roush. We built this left side net and we went to Simpson and said, we made them up a pattern, said, can you build us this? And they, they liked it and they put it, they actually made it in catalog, put it in their catalog and they call it the burden net. Then we, then we put on the right side, like how to contain, you know, try to contain your head. Right. And then, then they were like, wait a minute, why can't we do this with something more rigid? So we, we. And at that time, it had gotten ramped up. Cow wells had gone. He was trying to build a carbon seat, the first NASCAR carbon seat, full containment. He was off on that Project that was taking forever to get done. I mean, forever. I said, to hell with this. We're no need to wait around. So Brian Butler, I went to Brian Butler and I'm like, man, we gotta. We gotta figure this out. And so we built this head containment and it had a. It had a hole in the side of it where you could look through.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, gotta see who's next to me.

[Jeff Burton]

Right. And so. So, yeah, that was, that was because we had. I didn't. But the sport had started building containment with. With catch. Rather than catching your ribs. Catching your shoulders. Cause we were all breaking our ribs. Yeah, But. But we did nothing to contain the head. And so. And. And the first time that the head was contained, fully contained, was. Was, yeah. Daytona in my car. And a piece that Brian Butler and I had built together.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, well, I want to make a big deal out of that right here, right now. I just. When I listened to you intently, my mind went back there. To me, you are an award winning innovator. Because race car drivers are. We got egos. I ain't doing that. You know, I'm a man. And here you showed up with that and it made it okay. So I want to thank you for saving everybody's life. There's no telling how many drivers might have been killed or maimed. And here you did that. And I hope NASCAR listens to this and I hope that, you know, sometimes things are delayed and you did that. And this is like having a dream and waking up 10 years later going, I remember when that happened and that's what just happened to me just now. Okay, let's lighten the load. I feel like we've got a little too intense here. Damn, I'm exhausted. I say it every time.

[Jeff Burton]

Things tend to happen like that around me for some reason.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, well, it's all good, though. It's all good. Earlier today, I said, I'm going to talk to Jeff Burton and somebody had fun with it. And it's.

[Jeff Burton]

It.

[Kenny Wallace]

Listen, it's a good thing, okay? Rusty Wallace, my big brother Mike and me, we're all different. I am way different than my brothers. So we have Ward, who is a great racer, a good human being, his son Jeb, great marriage, but he is as country as they come. And so the joke was always that Ward grew up on the south end of the house and you always were okay with it.

[Jeff Burton]

Why?

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, so here's the question for all the fans.

[Jeff Burton]

Drum roll.

[Kenny Wallace]

How come you are so straight spoken with zero country pumpkin accent? Why are you two so different?

[Jeff Burton]

I have. We, hey look, we did blood test. We're brothers. I look at one. One when he was driving for Caterpillar, I, I, somebody asked me that and I said he spent a lot of time in the woods and animals taught him how to speak. And they didn't think that was funny at all. They were not happy. I old Greg with Caterpillar, he came to see me at the track. He's like, I don't think that's funny. Everybody else thought it was hell. I don't know. I have no idea. You know, and we have a middle brother, Brian.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay. And I was gonna ask about that. This is unbelievable. Tell me about this hidden brother.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. So Brian, Brian won more go kart races and Ward and I did put together. I mean, Brian was a badass in a go kart and, but he's a little more practical than we are. And he, he did the go to college. He always knew what he wanted to do. He, he, My family had a construction company in it for forever. And my brother, for as long as I can remember, that was his goal. He wanted to take that thing over. And he has been running it for, you know, God, 30 years. But, but he's a third generation and that's what he wanted to do. And he looked at this racing thing and said, you guys are nuts, you know, and you were. And. Yeah, we were. My parents thought I was nuts. Everybody did. Right. And so, so he, he is in the middle of us. He has like, he is dead in the middle of us in age and he's dead in the middle of us. And how he talks, how he looks. Yeah, he is right in the middle. He has some of that, but not as much as, not as little as me. And, But I have no idea because no one else in our family has that. I don't even want to call it the accent or whatever it is that War has. No one else has it and, and, but he is. Ward is this. If I, when I. Everywhere I, well, not everywhere. Most places I go, people ask me, where's Ward? How's he doing? What's going on? War. People love Ward. Yeah. Because he would tell, he would call it like he saw it. He, he, he just, he, he drove fearlessly.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yes, he did.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, my God. He drove. I mean, you remember, you remember Darlington.

[Kenny Wallace]

In the MVN Pontiac sitting on the.

[Jeff Burton]

Pole at Darlington on that fresh pave and then coming back the next race and he's like, yeah, I'm going to do it again. He came off turn to and that thing I mean it turned around fast and. But he was in the gas and that's how he drove. I mean he, he was in the gas and I was more, you know, a little more calculative. I wasn't as in the gas.

[Kenny Wallace]

They said, ward, what happened to the MBNA Pontiac? He said, well, it spun out and bust into flames. And boy, it did. It caught on fire.

[Jeff Burton]

So he, I, he, we were at Pocono. We were doing rookies racing at Pocono. And you know, he decided that somebody was holding him up or something, he was gonna pass him on the outside over in three, right? And like that's one groove, right? He jumped up on the outside of and he firewall deep that thing. And you know, and he gets out and they interview him. He says, man, I just need a, I just need some experience around me to tell me not to do those things.

[Kenny Wallace]

My mom would say self, why did I do that? Brian, the brother that we never see, you know, the inquisitive minds want to know. So is he, is he still successful? Is he running the, the family construction business or South Boston?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, he's doing great. It's done, done a great job with that company. He's grown it. He's done a really good job with it. You remember when we used to run, we go to South Boston and run the, run the bush races. Oh yeah. The, the grass three and four. All those people would sit up there and it was.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

I don't know, you know, they'd always have burden signs or whatever. Well, that my brother Brian, he was the ringleader of that whole, that whole thing. Oh yeah. Massive supporter of Ward and I now, of Harrison and Jeb and just, just huge supporters of us. And he's, he's the, he's the family patriarch. He's the guy that always does the right thing, always is there to help, always there to support. He's the, he's the leader of the family.

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[Kenny Wallace]

Well, that makes me really happy because, you know, we are competitors and sometimes we just don't calm the hell down and realize it for somebody. Hey, I. I had a friend one time. You know, I grew up with him as a child and he drove an over the road truck and he came to Charlotte and parked his truck out. You know, he parked it somewhere. Anyway, I got him a pit pass and he came down to me, you know, I'm getting ready to get in the car. Got him pit pass and everything. And he was talking to me as we were still, you know, playing, you know, in the creeks and shooting BB guns. He says, this is really dangerous, Kenny. Be careful. And. And I thought, this is so damn sweet because we're just so hardcore. He probably gonna die, you know, he'll probably get broken. And here's my friend, like your brother, you know, sure. And worried about us. So, man, oh man, here we are again. Looks like you're gonna be over an hour and I'm trying to hurry up here, but there's so much to you. So, you know, I have to talk about your son, Harrison. He came on the scene, just lighten it up on short tracks. I mean, winning the biggest races there was and so that paved the way for him to make it to the big time.

[Jeff Burton]

He.

[Kenny Wallace]

He runs for the Wood Brothers right now in the cup series. Tell me about your son, Harrison. You know, I mean, I guess you don't got to go in depth, but I know you and Kim love him so much. Where is he at right now and what do you think?

[Jeff Burton]

Well, you know, they have not had. They've not had the success that they. They want to have and that they obviously need to have. And at the cup level, you know, getting here, he did. You know, it's kind of funny, you know, he won everything he sat in and I mean, you know, at 8 years old, he's running around the country winning. Like he's won a lot of races, A lot of races. And you know, K N arca, you know, late models, quarter midgets. Like he won a lot of stuff and, and did it.

[Kenny Wallace]

It was fast.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, like fast. Smart. Like this is the, you know, he's got the whole package. And then he went to. He went and. And ran his first full year at KBM at Kyle's place. And they did. He and Todd Gillen, and they were. They were both lighting up, you know, arca K and N. They were, you know, contending for the wins, having incredible races, racing against each other. Big rivals. Didn't really like each other enough. Now they're best friends. Didn't really like each other that much. They go to KBM together, and neither one of them is having success. And, you know, most people went to KBM just lit it up. Right. And neither one of those guys were doing it for whatever reason. And that became public. You know, Kyle says some things publicly, and that put a lot of pressure on those two young men, which ultimately was fine. Right. Taught them. It taught him at a young age. Herm. Younger than we had to learn things.

[Kenny Wallace]

That you went through.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And made them tougher, made them stronger. And then, you know, so they got. He and Todd both, you know, got through that and. And it made them stronger. It made them tougher. It was a great experience for them. They were driving really good equipment, but they weren't having the success that they needed to have for whatever reason. And when you're at a big team that's used to win in races and you're not. It's going to fall on your shoulders. Yeah, that's how it is. You know, that's just simply how it is. And so. So then the next year, he went to. To. To Gibbs and just had a great year, rookie year, you know, won four races, broke Carl Edwards record for. For the best start in the end for a rookie driver in the Xfinity series. Just, you know, lit that up and then. And then went to cup and. And it's. It has not gone as well as anybody wants it to. The Wood brothers Harrison Penske organization, it just, you know, obviously hasn't had. They haven't been as good as they need to be really with. With. With he and Cedric both, you know, both of those guys have struggled getting up to speed, bringing consistent speed the way that. That their teammates have been able to. So it's. It is what it is. They. They've got to find a way as a race team to be better, and Harrison's got to find a way for him to be better, and they collectively got to find a way to do it together. And. And the talent's there. It's. You don't go. You don't. You don't lead the most laps of the Snowball Derby. You don't sit on the pole for the derby. You don't.

[Kenny Wallace]

None at all.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. You don't do all the things that he has done to. And not have talent, you know, and. And however it's. It is a different world. Yeah. And we talk a lot about. And lately the conversation, you know, has been about how much practice, late model guys, asphalt late model guys get. Well, you know, Harrison and a generation of drivers grew up Covid, and it completely changed how. Think about it. Like, Harrison ran three Xfinity races at Gibbs full time, won the second or third race at California. Not, you know, I might be wrong, the fifth race. I think the fifth race, Atlanta is the one that got canceled. The COVID race got canceled. From that point on, no practice. Right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hard on a young man.

[Jeff Burton]

And so he greatly benefited from practice, like he greatly benefited from lap time. And so they still matter for Christopher Bell. Christopher Bell, Cole Custer, that whole. Those guys, they came to me several, you know, and they're like, we gotta get practice. This. That's gonna ruin our careers. Like, we gotta find a way. And. And. But we haven't. We still really don't have practice, so. But it's. That to me, has. Has hurt some young drivers. Some it hasn't, but it has hurt some young drivers. But, you know, it's. It's. It has had an impact. But now going into the third, his third year in cup, there needs to be an uptick in performance. There's no question. And the team's made some changes. He's really happy about the changes they made. But he gets along with everybody. You know what I mean? He had. He hadn't become an ass just yet. You know what I mean? It'll happen, but we don't.

[Kenny Wallace]

We really don't want him to go through what we went through, you know? Well, it's because we qualified 20th.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. But you got. You have to. And there's no. There's. There's no way around it. You know, you have to. You know, I watch what he's gone through. I've watched what he's gone through, and I've paid attention to how he's handled it, and I'm really proud of how he has handled it because it's hard. Like you and I know you and I know. Incredible what he's going through. Yes. Because we've both done it. And it's actually pretty interesting. Somebody put up. Somebody put on. On social media, Twitter X, whatever the hell it's called. Yeah. My first year, my first two years stats compared to his first two years stats. Yeah. And it's pretty eerily similar. And it's an example of, you know, Dale Jarrett reminds me of this all the time. If, if, if Dale, Jared hadn't been given enough time, he would not be a hall of Famer. Remember, he, he came into CUP and was, and then got sent back out of CUP and then came back into cup.

[Kenny Wallace]

Mark Martin too.

[Jeff Burton]

Mark Martin. And so Dale Jarrett reminds me. He, Dale watches, Dale watches Harrison a lot. And, and, and he's, he's, he tells me all the time, look, man, that kid can do it. He just needs time. He's doing a lot of things. Well, you just got to connect all the dots. And, and fortunately, the Wood brothers have, you know, they see his work ethic, they see his dedication, they see his desire, they all see that. And so, you know, they're like, hey, this guy deserves another, you know, deserves a shot to make this happen. So, you know, he's going to get a shot and they got, they got to go make some stuff happen.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I think of all the drivers in this next gen car who have popped up and, you know, have had dry times and started winning, I, I expect, you know, him, him to be great. I really do. Just because I love racing and I watched how fast he was in every division he ran. I just wanted to hear what you had to say. I know how much you and Kim love your boy and your daughter. So you said something just then that made me think. You said, Cole Custer, C. Bell, Christopher Bell came to you and said, we need more practice. Are you the Racing alliance representative? Are you in charge of that? Do you talk to NASCAR on behalf of the NASCAR drivers?

[Jeff Burton]

So, so the Driver's Advisory Council, the dac, you know, the drivers a couple years ago, they've been trying for years, Kenny, to get a little more organized, a little more together. You know, I had, I had a few of them, five, six of them come to me and said, would, can you try to make this work?

[Kenny Wallace]

Because you're the mayor.

[Jeff Burton]

They tried to do it and it just didn't happen. And, and for one reason or another, it just, it just couldn't make it, just couldn't make it happen. So they came to, a few of them came to me and said, can you try to make this happen? We need it. I believe the drivers need it. I believe that. I believe the sport needs it. I think it's in the best interest of the sport. So I Said, yes, I ran it by a few of my friends, a few of the people I respect. Kyle Petty, he thought it was a. He thought it was a. He's like, look, man, if. And remember, this is pre next gen car, right? And there was a lot of conversation about the next gen car and safety, et cetera. And he's like, look, if this thing is from a safety standpoint, you know, like it could use your involvement, like. So he was kind of the one that pushed me over the edge. And so anyway, I spent a lot of time talking to people in the sport, the people at the top of the sport, the people in all different areas of the sport. And there was a genuine desire to. Let's get the drivers more organized, communicating better with nascar, communicating better with the entire industry. And so we got, we got the DAC up and running. We are in its, we're in its full, we're ending its full second year now with a great relationship. We've done. We, we operate behind the scenes. Kenny. There's really no need for us to operate in front of the public. Is. It's just not necessary.

[Kenny Wallace]

Doesn't need to be a show.

[Jeff Burton]

No, it's not a show. And it's not. And it's not about, it's not about me. It's not about. We have, we have a board of directors that, you know, we have regular meetings. We got one this week in Nashville on Thursday. We regularly meet with nascar. We have quarterly meetings with them, formal quarterly meetings, but we have, you know, through it, we came. Weekly drivers meetings are back. Well, not, not necessarily weekly, but, but, you know, every two or three weeks the drivers in NASCAR get together to talk about things. We've just created a clear pathway of communicating. Just a clear pathway of communicating. And through that came a lot of really cool things that the, the, that the fans have benefited from and they don't even know about it. And it's fine. They don't. Nobody needs to know about it. And NASCAR has been a willing partner, the car owners have been a willing partner, the industry, of the entire industry. So yeah, it's worked. It's. It's working. We have a, we can be a lot better. We need to be a lot better. But, but we've. In two years, we've come a long way, I mean, from where we were to where we are today is, is completely different.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, well, I think it's fantastic. DAC Drivers Advisory Council and boy, don't. Didn't we need somebody back in our day to rep us and instead we getting pissing matches and arguments and.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. And you know, look, it's, it's so. So the thing is that what's really cool about this is that you recognize how much the drivers care about the quality of the race, too. Yeah, right. You know, and like, what can. What. I mean, there's a. We're testing Phoenix, you know, the short track test at Phoenix, and a lot of what's being tested, and it got. A lot of stuff got tested at Richmond. A lot of what's being tested is through, you know, over a year of conversation with NASCAR and the drivers about what it is they're dealing with. Right. That if, if it was better, it wouldn't just make it more fun to be a better race car or be a race car driver. It would make a better race. Like, what is it that we can do that'll make a better race for the fans? Right. And so there's a lot of things that are being tested that I think will be implemented this coming year just to make short track racing and road course racing better. You know, and it's from, it's from talking, it's from having blunt conversations that. Arguments, disagreements in an environment where it's okay to disagree, it's okay to argue. We're all on the same team here. We're all trying to make it better, but we're going to have different opinions. And with those opinions, different opinions should be celebrated, not ridiculed. They should be celebrated, but you have to have an environment in which you can do that. And, and it's crazy, man. The drivers that, that say the least, like, if you listen to them, like, great point. That's a great point right there, you know, and so what, what happened in the past, and you know this as well as I do because your brother was one of them. And, and I watched, so I became one of them. They were in that trader. They were in that NASCAR trader every.

[Kenny Wallace]

Damn week, given their opinion every week.

[Jeff Burton]

And I watched that and I said, I'm gonna do that too. Yeah, I'm like, I'm going that damn trailer. And, and, and because if I don't, no one's gonna know what I think. Yeah, I want to be represented. And so that's where it was. I mean, hell, you remember we used to. On a rain delay, we used to. We, we'd look to see if Earnhardt came out of the damn.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, yeah. Because he was always in there.

[Jeff Burton]

Right? Like, well.

[Kenny Wallace]

Come out of the trailer. You know, you bring up a good point. I don't Want to belabor this?

[Jeff Burton]

Like the smoke coming out of the smokestack. Yeah, right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, hey, I heard, I heard plenty conversations that Earnhardt controlled 75 of the fan base. If you want NASCAR to fail, we'll just tell Earnhardt, say something bad. And that is controversial right there. But you know what? Really, I, I mean, this loving. When you look at the history of nascar, you know, they hired NASCAR cup crew chiefs, whether it was Gary Nelson, and now they got, you know, David Green and Chad Little. So sometimes, you know, maybe the sport wants to go. No, we don't need any racing people. But here, if you look at the inside workings of the NASCAR business model today, you got Chad Little, who's a major player. You know, David Green's, you know, on pit road checking safety or whatever job he's got now. But Elton Sawyer.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, my God. I think Elton Sawyer. Great. Me and you raced with him. Elton Story. Thank you for reminding me of that.

[Jeff Burton]

Scott Miller. I mean, there's a lot of them.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. So we, we do make our case right there. And, you know, it benefits the sport, the business model saying, hey, the drivers are saying this, so maybe we do this. It'll be a better race at Phoenix. Maybe they'll be able to get side by side or. Yeah. So good stuff, Jeff, and thank you for being the spokesperson for that. I don't think many people talk about it that much. Good job there. So. Okay, man, I get my butt chewed out if I don't ask you this question.

[Jeff Burton]

You're gonna throw your butt out?

[Kenny Wallace]

Myself, there's three of me.

[Jeff Burton]

What are you doing?

[Kenny Wallace]

Can't you see I'm kicking my ass? So, Dale Earnhardt Jr. And you appear like you are two little brothers. You guys are locked at the hip, and I can see it from afar. It seems like you guys just have fun. You have your mic.

[Jeff Burton]

You're.

[Kenny Wallace]

You're somewhere doing TV, and you're in a corner turn one or two somewhere. Tell me about your relationship with, with Dale Jr. Yeah, so it's, you know.

[Jeff Burton]

It'S, it's funny, Kenny. Like, you're in the middle of the sport, but you don't. I didn't know anybody. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I guess I'm an ass. I didn't want to know anybody, you know, like, you know, it's, that's your competitor. Like, it's, you know, we might go drink a beer. But, but so post driving career, I've gotten to know people, right? So Steve Latar, you know, I, I, I knew I was being hired and I knew he was being hired. I walked up to him in the garage and I mean, I maybe spoke 100 words to him my whole life and I'm like, I hear we're working together in a few years. And he's like, shut up, shut up. Like, right? So. So, you know, and he's become one of my dear friends and Dale Jr. The same way. Like, like, I didn't really know those guys. And when Dale Jr. Said, Hey, I want to do TV, you know, our bosses are like, hey, we'd like to get him. And you know, Steve and I put the full court press on. Like we wanted him and, and we wanted him because he loves racing. Right? I didn't know.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, he really does.

[Jeff Burton]

I didn't know a damn thing about any of that. I just knew that he loved racing and he really wanted to do it. And he's, you know, the biggest name in the sport and like, let's, let's. He's good. It's good for the sport to have him involved. Like, let's do it. And so, you know, we ended up getting it done and then, you know, now like, oh crap, what'd we do now we got this guy. What's he going to do? You know, and he's come in and just works. I mean, he, he doesn't have to, you know, he. He's Dale Jr. He do whatever he wants to do and he comes in and he just, he works hard, he prepares, he. He's committed and, and we mess around with, you know, how do we, how do we utilize him with us, what do we do? And you know, we just, through time, we ended up just putting he and I in a booth together and, and it just, I don't know, it just works. And we have a good time. We just, we. It's. It's. When I leave my house, going to the racetrack, I don't have to do it. Yeah, I want to do it. It's fun. And, and you know, we, we take it seriously, but at the same time, we have a good time. We have fun. It's. Watch. It's. It's. We're not, we're not curing world hunger.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, well, you know, we had Dale junior On Kenny conversation and the funniest thing he ever about tv, he said, man, NBC had me go cover a horse race. I don't know about horses. No, it, it was light hearted. So we're coming to the end here. I ask every race car driver or people that are in the industry and this is how we end Kenny conversation. And I always warn everybody, don't get yourself in trouble because Kenny conversation is, is good. It's good for the sport. So your opinion on NASCAR right now, NASCAR today.

[Jeff Burton]

So look, I, I have a, I have a real inside view of it. You know, because of the, the driver's advisory council. You know, my kid drives a cup car. I'm involved. I, you know, I'm, I'm heavily involved. Obviously I work, I do with NBC. Like, you know, I, I have a super inside look at it and I have tons of optimism about where this sport, the effort being put in to making this sport the best it's ever been. And we're, we're it. You're never going to. If somebody likes something the way it was. If somebody liked the NBA in the 80s, you're not going to make it the 80s, right. You're not going to do it. And, but in my eyes, if you look at our mile and a half racing, it's the best we've ever had. I mean, think about, think about where we were, right? So we built all these mile and a half racetracks and then we went, oh, what we do. Like the race is not good.

[Kenny Wallace]

Too many of them.

[Jeff Burton]

So now the mile and a half racing is really, really good. And the short track racing has not been as good. So let's fix the short track racing. Like, let's don't throw the baby out with bath water. Like we got this part really good. Like this mile and a half stuff's really good. Super speedway racing is really good. How do we fix the short tracks? Right? And if we can do that, then we, the product on track is, is good. Really good. And, and that part of it, that part of it to me is the, is the essence of the sport, right? Is the on track performance. We've got to build. We got to have more household names. Yeah. We got to have more people that know these race car drivers. That's what we have to do. We got to find that. And, and you could put 100 people in this renters room and talk about why we don't have more household names. And you have 100 different opinions, right? And it's a complicated thing. It's, it's. But, but at the end of the day, we have to have more household names. These cup drivers, people have to know who they are. The way they knew, the way they knew Rusty, the way they knew Mark, the way they knew Dale, the way they knew all these guys, right? They, they were household names. And and that's what we got to get back to. And, and what that formula is is very difficult. And if somebody, if somebody can tell you, tell you exactly, they know the way to fix it there, that maybe they think that. But it's. There really is not one answer. You know, I tell people this all the time. You know, bell bottom jeans were badass for a while, man. I know you had a pair, right?

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

Right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Right. You know, I, I think. I think, oh, Kyle Larson. I, I hate to bring it up again, but, you know, I yelled this from the top of the mountains about two weeks ago. Kyle Larson won the cup championship. And I'm repeating myself right now, but it's. It's worth doing because I don't know if you remember it. Kyle Larson said, kyle Larson, you won the championship. How has this changed your life? He says it hasn't done anything. Nobody doesn't even know who I am. And I think, you know, what you just said makes me happy because I believe you're inside the sport, and it makes me happy that they know it and they're addressing it. Okay, second thing out of three. Your opinion on the new next gen car. We know this is a game changer. It's a complete different race car. What is your opinion on it?

[Jeff Burton]

You know, I think it's given some. I think it's given some teams a chance that they wouldn't had a chance otherwise. You know, if you look at, you look at front row, if you look at what, you know, what they did the last couple of years, the resurgence of Roush, you know, I think that those things, the new car has been a big part of that. Yeah. And I'd like to think that that will continue. I understand why it's controversial. I understand why some people don't like it, but I do think long term, it's. The sport had to have something change. You can't have this. You can't have these endless budgets that create this situation. Hey, if you want to see it, watch an F1 race on Sunday. And look, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. Some people love F1 racing. I particularly not that fond of it because it's not. It's not very competitive to watch. I think it's a. It's an art. It's. It's. It's amazing what they do, and I have a ton of respect for it. I prefer to watch a race that's closer. That's just me. And I think most NASCAR fans are that way. And I think that this car gives us long term, the better opportunity to have close racing. And, man, it's an arms race. You were part of it. You know how it worked. You know how it worked. It was an arms race. And that's not, in my opinion, that's not in the best interest we used to have. This is what's so funny. Michael Walter said this years ago, and he was 100% right. You know, you had a Laughlin car, right? Or a Hopkins car. I used to go to Ronnie Hopkins shop to, to go pick up race cars. When I drove the 99 car for, for, for Jack Roush, he was building our chassis. I went down there, worked with Ronnie. This is how I want my cars built. Rusty's cars were on the surface plate being built right there. I could walk right up to it. That's Rusty Wallace's car. It. It was the same as mine. Yeah. It had the same A frames, it had the same spindles, it had the same steering box. It had.

[Kenny Wallace]

That made you feel good.

[Jeff Burton]

Right? I mean, we went. When racing was its best, when we had the most popular NASCAR ever was, we had spec race cars more than what we had four years ago. And people don't believe that, but it's true. I could walk in, I could look at Rusty's car, and I could tell you by looking at the upper control arm how much Camry had in the car. I could tell how much caster he had it within a degree. Right. I mean, they were spec. We had the same truck arms. We had the same track bar. Like it. It. We had more spec cars then than we did five years ago.

[Kenny Wallace]

What was the setup at the, the joke, but it was so true. You pull into Charlotte, 1914. 350, 400. Nine and a half.

[Jeff Burton]

Ten and a half.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, yeah. Track bar.

[Jeff Burton]

So, you know, 49 wedge, 51 and a half percent nose weight.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good stuff.

[Jeff Burton]

And you, you, you know, so you think about it. When our sport was the best it ever was.

[Kenny Wallace]

Good point.

[Jeff Burton]

That's what it was.

[Kenny Wallace]

Good point.

[Jeff Burton]

And so when people say, well, this new cars, everybody got to say, we used to have the same.

[Kenny Wallace]

Everybody used to be the same.

[Jeff Burton]

We, we changed that when we started building our own chassis. Yeah, we changed it. Yeah. It wasn't like that. And so, and so in my eyes, in my eyes, we're going back more to how it was when it was its most successful. We're not, we're not moving this way without understanding what happened in the past. If you don't understand history. Your future is going to be screwed up.

[Kenny Wallace]

I said this last night.

[Jeff Burton]

History.

[Kenny Wallace]

I, I didn't like history when I was a. When I was a kid. But if you understand it now, you need to write a book on connecting the dots. You have taught me, you have reminded me more today than I ever thought would happen. Because the coil binding, the lower, the front end and, and the hans. You know, the full containment. See, and you're dead on on this subject right there. Yeah. Okay, so last but not least, your opinion on how NASCAR is officiating the fines, which we have saw some big fines, penalties, how we're going through tech inspection today.

[Jeff Burton]

So I. So Emmanuel Zervacus.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, what a name.

[Jeff Burton]

He told me, he told me years ago, if you don't make someone do the right thing, they never will. Yeah. And, and I believe that. I believe that in, in motorsports because there's so many things out there that you can touch. Tom Brady, the world went eight for how many weeks, how many months? Because Tom Brady might have overflighted a ball or whatever the hell he did. A race car. Imagine all of the parts that a race car has on it in which you could do whatever it is that Tom Brady supposedly did with his football. Imagine that. Yeah. So if you don't have strict rules that are strictly enforced, it will get away from you. And if, if, if nascar, please, if NASCAR could put the genie back in the bottle from. And go back in time to 1997 and say, okay, you're going to run Ronnie Hopkins chassis or you're going to run Laughlin chassis. You can run this rear end or those truck arms, which is what we already had. Right, Right. That's what would have been the right thing to do. But the only way to make any of that work is to have rules that are strictly enforced. And if you don't hold people accountable, they won't do the right thing. Competitors will screw it up because we don't care. We don't care about me. So I don't care. Why do I care? I mean, people tell me that one of the worst races in the history was. Was I led every lap in New Hampshire. I thought it was awesome. Yeah, like, let me do it again. And, and, and, but, but, you know, race fans didn't like that. I don't blame them. They wouldn't have liked it either. But hell, I didn't care. Why should I care? So, so you have to have rules and you have to enforce them. Look, I think, I think the, I think the fighting stuff is Stupid. I don't, I don't think that, you know, we don't need that crap. Two drivers want to get in each other's face and have a conversation, that's fine. But I, I, I. Fighting and shoving, and I, I just, I, I, we don't need that, that, that. I, I don't, I just don't think it's necessary. So I wish we'd put a stop to that. And. Yeah, but, but I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a big penalty. I'm a big penalty. Big fine guy. I'm okay with, with it.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, listen, I've had a wonderful time talking to you, and I want to remind everybody right now that we are in podcast form. We're in podcast form, so you can listen to Jeff Burton on your way to work. You can listen to Jeff on the way home, because, boy, there sure is some good stuff right here. We are on itunes and Spotify. Jeff Burton, my longtime friend. God, we were just children. And congratulations on all your success. You're as famous right now or you're as relative right now as you ever were. So thank you for being on Kenny Conversation.

[Jeff Burton]

Thank you. Kenny's good times always.

[Kenny Wallace]

All right, everybody. Kenny Conversation just keeps on rolling. We have them lined up, and holiday season is here. And the next one coming up, you don't know who it's going to be. It's gonna be Max Pappas, Rico Abreu, Rick Mast. All right, until next time. See you later, everyone. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.