Jeff Burton: We Took Their Sport From Them

Summary

Herm & Schrader Podcast – “Jeff Burton: We Took Their Sport From Them”

Date: January 22, 2026
Hosts: Kenny Wallace & Ken Schrader
Guest: Jeff Burton
Network: SiriusXM, Dirty Mo Media

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Main Theme

Kenny Wallace welcomes Jeff Burton for an open, candid conversation dissecting the last 20 years of tumult and transformation within NASCAR, the fan backlash, and the return to tradition in 2026. Through laughter, memories, and honesty, Burton analyzes where NASCAR has gone wrong, why—and what course corrections the sport is making to regain fan trust and excitement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jeff Burton's Multifaceted Role in NASCAR

• Color commentator for USA Sports and a central figure for the Drivers Advisory Council (DAC).
• DAC’s Mission: Foster a collective driver voice on issues of safety, competition, and communication with NASCAR leadership.
  • “It’s important… for drivers to be involved in their safety… not to… NASCAR does an incredible job. There’s a leader in the industry… but having the drivers involved… having the driver’s voices heard about what they’re actually experiencing in an effort to put the best racing on.” – Jeff Burton (04:46)
• Recent move: Hiring Chip Wile to manage the business side of the DAC, freeing Burton to focus on key issues (03:39).

1.1 Burton as a Pioneer for Safety

• First to show up at Daytona with a full containment seat and the HANS device, inspiring change despite skepticism in the garage.
  • “You looked like you were in a cocoon… But, Jeff, how brave you were… Tell me about those days when you were driving for Roush….” – Kenny Wallace (05:35)
  • “…Life’s evolution, right?… And what I learned about the safety thing was, some people didn’t want to know…” – Jeff Burton (07:08)
• Burton admits initial resistance to mandatory safety equipment, before recognizing its necessity after witnessing repeated tragedies.

1.2 Active Track Safety Inspection

• Drivers (guided by the DAC and Jeff) now collaboratively walk tracks with NASCAR and proactively address risks (09:43).
  • Examples: Mexico City’s track limits, Atlanta Motor Speedway’s wall design (11:53).

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2. Industry Transitions and the Role of Veteran Drivers

• Wallace likens Burton’s continued involvement to Tom Brady’s enduring presence in football—“You’re still in it because you love it, not for money.” (14:10)
• Both Wallace and Burton reflect on their generations giving back to NASCAR after driving—through advocacy, media, and mentoring. (13:17)

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3. NASCAR's 20-Year “Firestorm”: What Went Wrong and What’s Changed

3.1 The “About Face” and 2026 Changes (16:00)

Wallace lists a litany of seismic shifts as NASCAR strives to reconnect with its core audience:

• The “Hell Yeah Tour”: NASCAR’s new marketing, proudly embracing its “redneck” roots.
• Dismissal of Steve Phelps as President, a response to fan pressure.
• Simple “Chase” points system returns (26 races, top 16 advance, 10-race playoff).
• Inclusion of internet figures like Cletus McFarland, new country music partnerships.
• Tony Stewart racing again in the Truck Series—the return of legends.

3.2 Burton’s Honest Systemic Analysis

• Points system implemented “all the stated goals,” except growing the fanbase.
  • “…every goal that was put in front of that group got met… But… [we] didn’t grow the fan base.” – Jeff Burton (26:57)
• Fans rejected changes that felt “inauthentic”—they want NASCAR to be itself, not a copy of stick-and-ball sports.
• “…the one race championship thing created a scenario where drivers were telling me, ‘Look, if I don’t win a championship, whatever.’ That’s not good… Fans need to believe in the authenticity of the championship, and many didn’t.” – Jeff Burton (31:18)
• Notable quote on fan alienation:
  • “I think what happened was, we took away their sport. They owned it, and we changed their sport.” – Jeff Burton (33:45)

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4. Communication Breakdown & Fixing Fan Trust

• Wallace and Burton agree that during the last two decades, NASCAR failed to clearly communicate with its core fans about decision-making and actively listening to their input (35:45).
• “…There was some acknowledgment. But what are we doing about it?… I think the biggest mistake wasn’t in trying something different. It was in not adjusting quick enough to get back.” – Jeff Burton (38:08)
• Social media complicates fan engagement (“Your algorithm will go to where you want it to go…” – Burton, 37:24).

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5. Points System Debate & Revivals

5.1 Simplicity and Transparency

• The new Chase-style points system praised for being easy to explain, which is “vital.”
  • “It needs to be quick and easy to explain. And you know, certainly this one’s way easier than the previous one.” – Jeff Burton (54:53)
• 16 drivers in the playoff “gets more sponsors into the mix,” essential for the sport’s business model. (49:08)

5.2 Focus on Drivers

• Mark Martin lamented modern coverage for emphasizing points and cutoffs over drivers.
  • “…I got so tired of watching TV and the announcers kept building up the playoffs, the cutoff. And he said, we forgot about the drivers.” – Kenny Wallace, quoting Mark (43:23)
• Burton says broadcasters must balance highlighting top performers and telling deeper stories about the field (44:42–45:39).

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6. What Really Happened to NASCAR’s Popularity?

6.1 Ben Kennedy’s “Perfect Storm” Theory

• 2008 economic collapse, mass retirement of star drivers, generational transition.
• Burton’s conclusion: In the chase for new fans, NASCAR neglected its base—“the guy already taking his kid to the race”—by changing the sport they loved (57:33–58:12).
  • “That possessive feeling is what… we need. We need people to feel like it’s theirs.” – Jeff Burton (58:20)
  • “We all tried too hard. That’s simple.” – Jeff Burton (57:32)

6.2 Acknowledging Mistakes, Inviting Fans Back

• NASCAR is now actively admitting errors and trying to fix them: “NASCAR has acknowledged the mistakes not just in words but in action.” (60:49)
• Burton appeals for fans to give the sport another chance:
  • “…Let’s appreciate the fact that NASCAR said, okay, we got to change this. Yeah. …NASCAR needs you.” – Jeff Burton (60:45–61:30)

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7. Practice, On-Track Experience & RV Culture

• Wallace raises the issue of NASCAR restricting practice, possibly damaging race day atmosphere and infield attendance.
• Burton nuanced: Practice reductions were cost-driven but maybe “taking our product away doesn’t seem like the best way to promote.” (64:14)
• Acknowledges that other major motorsports series allow far more on-track action.

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8. Why F1 Succeeds with Dull Racing & The Global Expansion Push

F1:

• “Just different”: Fans abroad embrace process and personality as much as competitive parity. Netflix's "Drive to Survive" boosted interest among new demographics. (68:04–68:54)
• In contrast, U.S. NASCAR fans expect (and demand) race drama in every event (69:56).

NASCAR Abroad:

• Wallace and Schrader have mixed feelings about the urge to push NASCAR internationally (70:32).
• Burton: All sports face pressure to try new things, but “when do you do something different? And what is that different? You can’t always stay the same.” (71:36)

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9. Is the Firestorm Over?

• Burton: “I think we all believe this is the right step… But none of us really know… There is no magic pill that we’re going to take that’s going to get us back to the max popularity… This is a step toward what we all hope is the right thing.” (73:32–75:44)
  • Authenticity, tradition, and driver credibility are prioritized moving forward.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Safety Innovation:

  • “I wasn’t the only one doing it, but I became really interested in it and wasn’t afraid to get smarter about it… Every one of us, if we really think about it, we all knew we were going to get hurt. I mean, it was part of the game, and let’s just try to limit it.” – Jeff Burton (08:14)

• On the Points System Firestorm:

  • “I think what happened was, we took away their sport. They owned it, and we changed their sport.” – Jeff Burton (33:45)

• On Transparency:

  • “NASCAR needs you. Right. They really made some decisions they thought were best for you and they were wrong. Yeah. So they're righting the ship, they're righting it... I would ask you that you give NASCAR a second chance and to appreciate that they ultimately did make some decisions, that your voice was heard…” – Jeff Burton (61:30)

• On Trying Too Hard:

  • “We just, as an industry, we just, I think, try too hard.” – Jeff Burton (59:36)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:39 – How the Drivers Advisory Council is structured and its evolution.
• 06:25 – Burton's story on bringing safety innovation into NASCAR.
• 09:43 – On walking tracks to identify safety issues collaboratively.
• 16:00 – Wallace sets the stage for NASCAR's recent “about-face” (marketing, presidency, points system, celebrities, etc.).
• 25:53–29:00 – Burton’s breakdown: why the old system failed and how authenticity matters most.
• 33:45 – Burton: “We took away their sport.”
• 43:23 – Mark Martin’s lament about the coverage’s focus on cutoffs over drivers.
• 54:05 – Explaining the simplicity of the new playoff/points structure.
• 57:33 – How the drive for new fans led NASCAR to neglect its core.
• 61:30 – Burton’s appeal for fans to give NASCAR another shot.
• 64:14 – Discussion about NASCAR practice, on-track events, and fan engagement.
• 73:32–75:44 – Is the “firestorm” over? Burton’s sober summary.

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Conclusion

Jeff Burton delivers a brutally frank, yet deeply hopeful diagnosis for NASCAR. He acknowledges past missteps—most notably, efforts to please everyone by changing what made NASCAR unique. Now, with a return to its roots, simpler points, fan-first marketing, and a transparent willingness to admit mistakes, the sport is asking jilted fans for another chance. Both Wallace and Burton agree: there’s no quick fix, but with authenticity, humility, and civil debate among all stakeholders, NASCAR’s best days may yet be ahead.

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Final Word:
“Having drivers feel that [winning a championship] means something, having drivers agonize over not winning one, having fans believe it’s much more authentic. How is that part wrong? Yeah, that can’t be wrong. But does it ultimately… get more viewers watching? Only time will tell that, but for sure it is more authentic to what this sport has been in its past.”
– Jeff Burton (75:22)

Transcript

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[Kenny Wallace]

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Kenny Conversation, brought to you by i55 Federated Auto Parts Raceway. And remember the world of outlaw wing sprint cars are coming to that racetrack on April 10th and 11th. Get your [e-mail] okay, deep breath. The mayor is in town. The boss, my friend, Jeff Burton. How you doing, Jeff?

[Jeff Burton]

I'm good, bud. How are you, man?

[Kenny Wallace]

I'm doing really good. It's crazy in St. Louis. We. We got a very mild winter, 60 degrees all the time. How's the weather down there in North Carolina?

[Jeff Burton]

It's been nice. I. I don't know if you know this, but I play a lot of golf and so I've been. It's been really nice. But payback sale, it's coming. Today is cold. Winter's rainy, nasty. Going to be like that for a few days, I think. But. But we've had some unbelievable days lately.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, it's wild, but I think it's a delayed winter and like you said, I think it's coming. Okay, everybody, enough of the pleasantries. It's time to get. It's time to. Time to get down to business. I want to remind everybody that we did a Kenny Conversation celebrating Jeff Burton's career. Listen, I consider you one of the greatest NASCAR drivers of all time. You've won in everything. You've done it all. Look at those trophies in the background. It is not easy to win at Dover. So anyway, everybody, if you want to know more about Jeff's incredible career on YouTube. Kenny Wallace, YouTube. Go to the Kenny Conversation with Jeff Burton. But it's time to get down to business. You ready, Jeff?

[Jeff Burton]

Let's go. Let's go. A lot happening.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Thank you for coming on Kenny Conversation. I appreciate you. Now, am I right when I say this and feel free to correct me. You are the color commentator for USA Sports, and you work with the Drivers Advisory Council. You. You marry the drivers to nascar and. And they work with you guys, work with safety and do. I got that right?

[Jeff Burton]

Two.

[Kenny Wallace]

Two jobs.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, that's right. I. I would say, you know, we just. We just. The Driver's Advisory council just hired Chip while, you know, Chip. I think you actually worked with Chip.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yes, he was my PR guy.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah. That's awesome. So ship's been around forever. You know, we had some drivers come to me, gosh, three and a half years ago, four years ago. Multiple times in our. In our industry, drivers have tried to get together to, you know, to have a more collective voice. Some drivers came to me, asked me if I would give it a shot. It had been tried multiple times, and it really worked. And I, you know, I had the time to do it and had the willingness to do it. And so we got this going, and it's. It's. It's gone really well. Not perfect, but going pretty well. But it needs. It needs somebody that can put 100% of their effort into it. So Chip came on. Actually, I think it's first, actually real week is this week. So he'll run the business side of it. Then. We have a board of directors made up of current drivers, past drivers, some business people. And then this allows me to focus on safety, allows me to focus and have conversation about competition, what's going on on the track. But, you know, it's important, you know, I mean, it's important, you know, as well as anybody, you know, for drivers to be involved in their safety, not to. You know, NASCAR does an incredible job. There's a leader in the industry. I don't care what anybody says. I believe they're the leader in the industry from a safety standpoint, but having the drivers involved in that, having the driver's voices heard about what they're actually experiencing in an effort to put the best racing on right. Drivers like good racing, too, believe it or not. You know, it's not just the fact that. And how do we all work together to get there? And, you know, it's worked pretty well. We kind of operate behind close. Not kind of behind closed doors, Kenny, because you know how this business is. We get more done having conversation than we do out in front of. With the media, using the media, we can get more done long term. So kind of things are done quietly but. But proud of. Proud of the group that was put together and what we've been able to Accomplish.

[Kenny Wallace]

I want to remind everybody that it was you, Jeff Burton, that showed up at Daytona with the full containment seat, the HANS device, and the whole garage area. Even me, I'm like, what in the hell is he doing? You look like you were in a cocoon. But, Jeff, how brave you were. You were the man. Listen, it's my opinion you were the very first NASCAR driver that, you know, it reminds me that, that song, you were cool. You know, you were country. When country wasn't cool. You, you know, I mean, you did it before anybody. You were brave. You didn't care what you look like. Tell me about those days when you were driving for Roush. You came out with the full containment seat, you had the HANS device on, and everybody was looking at you like, what in the world is he doing?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, so, so I, in honesty, I was a little late on the HANS thing. I, I was, you know, in retrospect, I, I, I was public saying I don't think NASCAR should make it mandatory. You know, we live in a free country. We do what we want to do, right? I was that guy. And, and I was wrong about that. I was, I was wrong about that. But I, I, I believed, I believe in choice. And, you know, and the containment seat was through a lot of meetings with some, some people in the industry in regard to safety. That containment seat idea came from that. We created the net, you know, the net that was on the left side of the, you know, to keep your head from, you know, you experience, probably when your head goes out, you could get out of the car. We created that net to try to prevent that. Through that came the containment seat. And I was part of it. I wasn't all of it by any means, but I was the first idiot to actually try it and run it. And yeah, you could have sold, you could have sold tickets to my car down there that speed weeks, but, you know, you don't. Life's evolution. Life's an evolution, right? Your own life. Not generations, but we evolve as people, as we get older. And what I learned about the safety thing was some people didn't want to know, right? That it was dangerous. Some people didn't want to know. Other people were really inquisitive. As I got more inquisitive, people actually thought I was afraid to race. You know, he's afraid he's going to get hurt. Well, no, I'm going to get hurt. I'm not afraid to get hurt. I know I'm going to get hurt. I want to limit my injury, right? And on A more serious note, we had drivers that were dying. We had young drivers that were passing away. There's something wasn't right. Right? And instead of, instead of looking at that and saying, well, that's just racing, you know, no, let's. Let's try to fix that. Like, that's, that's not something that we should make excuses for or ignore because it was easier to ignore it. So anyway, it led to the, to the evolution of that. And again, I wasn't the only one doing it, but. But I became really interested in it and wasn't afraid to get smarter about it. I wasn't afraid. As I learned something, I wasn't going to drive my race car hard because I already knew we were going to get hurt. You knew we were going to get hurt. Every one of us, if we really think about it, we all knew we were going to get hurt. I mean, it was part of the game, and let's just try to limit it.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, Jeff, I just want to remind everybody that you don't have this job with the advisory council, driver's advisory council, by chance. I feel like, you know, we go back however many years ago that was, and I believe NASCAR remembers that time that, you know, we were at Daytona and everybody came to your race car and saw that you were ahead of the safety curve. And, you know, now I see that not just the race car, but, you know, you're walking the racetracks with the drivers. Tell me about that. You know, you're looking at things that could possibly get the drivers hurt.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's. I would say. I would say Mexico City this year was a really good example of working together with nascar and, you know, all the fine details of a race. Right. A racetrack, and how, you know, where are we setting up? Where are. Where safer barriers going to be set up? Where are different. What types of different walls are available to us? Tire barriers, other things like that. And then where do we need to put a track limit? You know, limiters. How do we do that? And so Mexico City was all. We spent a lot of time working together. NASCAR did the majority of the work. We came in kind of, you know, at the right moments. You know, what about this? What about that? And when we got down there, there was a plan on paper. But then when we got down there, the majority of drivers walked the track. We all walked it separately. Then we all got together and we went. I went to nascar, like, all right, what about track limits here? What about here? What about here, we all worked collectively. Collectively to do that. And it went great. Like that. It went great. There wasn't a thing, oh, we got to go do this, we got to go do that. Like, we pre thought it out, a lot of effort, went working together on it, and it worked. It worked really well. And so, you know, that's ways. If you're not driving one of these race cars, how can you know where something should be now? You can know it from an officiating standpoint, and that's something the drivers don't understand. Right. Like, how is it officiated? So if we all work together, you know, to make it. To make it so the NASCAR can officiate it properly and the drivers feel like it, it creates a track limit. It's just an example. A track limit serves the purpose of limiting the track. Right. So you're not just all over the place. How do we do that? So we can both do it and work together. Right. And so Mexico City was a great example of how that can work out. There's other examples to Atlanta Motor Speedway. We worked with them to actually change the shape of the front straightaway wall. Because if you remember.

[Kenny Wallace]

Do I?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, like, and so it was really a blunt object from like the start finish line wall, where it transitioned to the wall going to turn one. Well, they changed the shape of that. And they changed the shape of that because we worked with them to say, okay, real life for the drivers, here's what's happening. Here's what the drivers could potentially deal with. And they changed it. So there's a lot of examples like that. It's nascar, the tracks willing to sit down with drivers and talk about it. And it's drivers willing to spend time saying, hey, this is what I see as a race car driver. And then the willingness to work together.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, everybody, that was a quick eight minutes to remind you all, everything that Jeff is up to. We see him on USA Sports. I just thought that was important to let everybody know how involved you are with nascar, representing the drivers for the Drivers Advisory Council. Thank you for reminding me and the fans how involved you are. And. And I appreciate you. You know, I think, you know, when I look like a Tom Brady or these great athletes, they've done it all, but yet you look like Tom Brady, you know, with the New England Patriots. He's still involved in the sport. And here you are, a successful NASCAR driver, and you're still involved. And I. I always find that fascinating.

[Jeff Burton]

Or you are too. You are too. And. And, you know, we all have, we all do things differently, right? We all drivers or you know, when they get done, they walk away and they're just, they just go. And others stick around like you, you know what I mean? And try to use your experience to impact something that you love. And you and I both know that without NASCAR we wouldn't have this stuff, right? And, and I mean, you know, we both worked our ass off.

[Kenny Wallace]

I was look, I always look at football, you know, you look at Terry, Bradshaw, Brady, you know, those guys knocked down, especially Brady knocked down 30 million a year and you're like hell, he can ride off in the sunset. But nope, there he, there he is right back.

[Jeff Burton]

It's not just about the money. I mean, right, Everybody would say, right, he's doing it because he's making 30 million a year, whatever he's making. And yeah, that's great, but he wants to do it, you know, and, and again, same as you. And you know, we've seen Mark Martin lately.

[Kenny Wallace]

We are retired. That's true. Everybody. We love it.

[Jeff Burton]

We still love the sport and we appreciate the opportunities that the sport presented. The sport didn't give us anything, right? Yeah, it gave us opportunity. But then we had to go take from it what was there, which is what's great about it.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hey, this is Dalenhardt Jr. And for the latest Herman Schrader gear you need to go to shop.dirtymomedia.com We've got plenty of options for everybody and we're adding new stuff all the time. So go to shop.dirtymomedia.com Everyone deserves to be connected.

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[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, we're gonna make a big turn right now, everyone. And I, and I, and I just, you know, I say my Larry McReynolds notes. I, I just wrote a big, I just wrote Mark Martin real big. Okay, this is a dramatic turn right now. Thank you. Once again, Jeff Burton, working with the driver's advisory council. And I hope you don't mind this, but we're going to talk about the firestorm that has been NASCAR the last 20 years. And listen, we're respectful, but we're just gonna call it. And you've always been very honest and very theoretical, very philosophical. You philosophy, you say what you think and everybody respects you. I put you in the same category as Mark Martin. And thank you.

[Jeff Burton]

That's hell of a compliment. Thank you.

[Kenny Wallace]

Let you know before we get really started on the subject. Mark Martin drove up my driveway and he did coffee with Kenny and I'll never forget, he was here for two days. And I said, mark, what does it feel like to you that you were one of the most well respected drivers in NASCAR history? And his answer made me smile. He said, it is my everything. It is my championship. You know, Mark to this day is still upset he didn't win a championship, but he feels like his contribution to NASCAR and being respected. We'll just talk about that.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, so, so I was, you know, I got to know Mark as a teammate and, and had the. He and I worked together unbelievably well. We got put in a situation when we started, when the 99 got started. Jack, the rule was we didn't work with Liberty. Like, we didn't, you know, the 6 and the 16, they were there and the 99 was here. We didn't work together and, and Jack didn't want us working with them and they didn't want to work with us.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hold on, back up. Liberty, North Carolina was here and you and Mark were down here in Charlotte.

[Jeff Burton]

Just me and, me and Buddy Parrot and Frank Stoddard in that group.

[Kenny Wallace]

That's right.

[Jeff Burton]

We were. That was the 99 car. We weren't with the 6 and the 16.

[Kenny Wallace]

Gotcha.

[Jeff Burton]

Had nothing to do with them and they wouldn't have anything to do with us. And Jack liked it like that. He. But I'm sitting there saying, that's Mark Martin. That's like, that's Robin Pemberton. Like, those people are geniuses.

[Kenny Wallace]

Like, I want to know what he's doing right?

[Jeff Burton]

So, you know, we had to we had to earn. We had to really, really, really earn the respect of Mark and, and Steve and Robin and. And, you know, we did that by ultimately, you know, building race cars and putting race, fast race cars on the track. And then that got their attention. And then we, then we started working together and I got to know Mark, you know, his strengths, his weaknesses. I got to know him at a level that I would say most don't because I was with him on a Sunday nights after running 16th and him like, I can't do it. I'm not good enough.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, like, he would exaggerate, wouldn't he?

[Jeff Burton]

Yes, you are.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, I'm no good. I don't even know why I race.

[Jeff Burton]

You know, so, yeah, so. So that's the Mark I know. And you know him like that too. And so he's very humble. He's very, very, very humble. But he does appreciate the respect that people show him and he does appreciate the fact that throughout, I would say across the entire industry, he is highly respected. His, his name comes up a lot, and it's a lot lately because of the point thing. But prior to that, his name comes up a lot in conversations about the badasses. Right. The badass guy that you're like, practice is gonna start and everybody's like, Mark's gonna go out there and lay a.

[Kenny Wallace]

Laugh, set, quick time, and I am.

[Jeff Burton]

Not gonna be within 3/10 of it. And, you know, and that's badassery, you.

[Kenny Wallace]

Know, like dust flying on the racetrack.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

And just, you know, eight in the morning.

[Jeff Burton]

From Jeff Gordon to. To. From Jeff Gordon to, to. To Jimmy Johnson to, you know, to every. All of our greats, Dale Earnhardt, all respected Mark Martin.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

And just that simple.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Okay, here we go, everybody. Jeff Burton. I'm going to serve the questions up. Jeff Burton is going to help me do an analysis on nascar. And I think I'm gonna have my. Charlie Marlowe, my YouTube manager. I think that's going to be the headline. Jeff Burton does an analysis on NASCAR. This firestorm of the last 20 years. Okay. I'm gonna say these topics and just give me, you know, not one minute. Okay? So with knowing what we've gone through, just a firestorm, but now NASCAR is clearly making it right. I mean, this is the biggest change we've seen as far as making it right. It seems like NASCAR is making an effort to make the fans happy, make the drivers happy. So here we go. NASCAR announced at the end of the 2025 season. Now, this is Kenny Wallace Ism. Okay, we're not going to try to be perfect. NASCAR announced we're going to do the Hell yeah Tour. We're going back to our redneck ways. And they. They come out with the first commercial. Sure enough, hell, yeah. It's in a bar, there's bush beer, and some guy goes, what's the big deal with the Daytona 500? And an Earnhardt fan just starts screaming. So that was the first commercial. It made it very clear that NASCAR is changing their trajectory. They are going back to the proud term. We are rednecks. All right, Number one. Number two, Steve Phelps is gone. We're just gonna say that the fans demanded that. I'm sure Steve was a great guy, but listen, that Steve Phelps is gone. So that's another big change. Don't care whose fault it was. He's gone. That's two changes right there. Now we have the new. We're back to the. The Chase. The Chase for the championship is back. That's a new point system. It's very easy. If somebody says, what's the points? You go, we go 26 races. We take the top 16, and we go 10 more. And that's it. That's all you got to say. And how smart of it was for NASCAR to have Mark Martin at the press conference.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh.

[Kenny Wallace]

Along with Dale Jr. To approve this. So that's three things right there. They bring Cletus McFarland back. He was never there. But how funny was it? They scolded Cletus last year for having a little camera in his car. Cletus, you can't have that camera in your car. I'm sorry, nascar. Now, Cletus is the point man this year. He does a nice commercial. I mean, that's another big change. Cletus is their point man right now. He represents the redneck reality. And this one kind of caught me off guard, but it just seems like it works really good. Fox Sports. NASCAR and Fox, along with Ram Trucks. Dana White produces it. The ufc, you know, fighting Boss with. With Colic Racing. They get the Ram truck reality show. This reminds me of the Gong show, where you guys at Roush when you found Kurt Bush. Keep track of this, Jeff. I mean, that's like number five. Now they're bringing country music back now. Now we're back to country music. We got Miranda Lambert before the Daytona 500, and I'm out of breath. But last but not least, one of the biggest changes, whether it was NASCAR's doing or not, but Mr. Clark and everybody at marketing in NASCAR they. They hopped right on it. Tony Stewart is going to drive that Ram truck at Daytona. So for all these reasons, Mr. Jeff Burton, it has been an about face. So I just gave you all those reasons. I was long winded, and I want you to take the steering wheel.

[Jeff Burton]

Well, look, first, you know, I want to say Steve Phelps is a good partner for, with the Drivers Advisory Council and did everything he said he was going to do and worked exceptionally hard to build better relationships with drivers. And certainly he made some mistakes, as we all do. We all made mistakes. Right. But C. Phelps is, I believe, you know, he was a good partner. Let me say that. And you know, there comes a time when you have to look in regard to all the changes. There comes a time when you have to look and say, is what we're doing working? Right. And so let's take a step back, if you don't mind.

[Kenny Wallace]

I'll go. Yep.

[Jeff Burton]

So the point system as it was last year, was developed with a large group of people that had some goals that was stated. Right. And I will tell you that every goal that was put in front of that group got met in regard to, on track activity and in regard to, to, you know, races matter, points matter, winning, winning matters, what you do inside the race matters. Creating these moments where drivers are put in difficult situations that we fans love drivers to be put into. Like, if you go back and think about it, like, almost every goal was met, but, you know, what goal wasn't met that was also on there was to grow the fan base.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, we thought that would have grown the fan base.

[Jeff Burton]

So what does that mean?

[Kenny Wallace]

We failed.

[Jeff Burton]

And I think that ultimately what our fan base cares about is they don't want racing to be like other sports. And I'm a sports guy. I love sports. I want. My wife will tell you she gets tired of hearing the hissing and noise of the fans on the television. Turn that off. But I like it. I like competition. And so. But our NASCAR fans want NASCAR to be unique to it, to itself. Right? And so there was 100% honest effort into, put into how do we make this sport more exciting, make these bigger moments and those things happen. But it wasn't embraced because our fans cared more about the authenticity of it than they did about creating a system that made these moments. Now I. And this is my personality. And maybe, you know, it's. Our personalities have negative and positive traits. My positive of it is that when I look at rules, I look at it as an opportunity. Right. If you look, go back and look at the races I won a lot of those races, were difficult situations. I didn't do well. This is going to suck. New Hampshire Restricted plates, 90% of the field. This sucks. I hate this. This is bullshit. We went to work.

[Kenny Wallace]

Like, we let every lap.

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, we. We went to Milwaukee and tested.

[Kenny Wallace]

We.

[Jeff Burton]

We pushed the engine program. Like we. They flew an engine in for me that, you know, like, we went to work because it was an opportunity right there. Texas, the first. My first race win was Texas. That track was horrible. You know, it was horrible coming apart. And so I didn't. I didn't view the previous. And, you know, I'm just, full disclosure, telling you the truth. I didn't view the previous point system as some gimmick because I believed it was the same for everyone. And that's just my personality. But I do understand how others disagree with that. I get it. I understand what you're saying. So our fans didn't like it, and it didn't create. In large part, it didn't create new fans. Now, I have to be in full honesty. I have to tell you this, too. There are fans that like that system. I talk to them. I'm at the racetrack almost every weekend, and fans are more than willing to come up and tell me what they think. And I love that. I sit in the grandstands and watch. Watch cup races a lot, and fans see me and recognize me. They'll come and talk. And there are a lot of fans that do like the system that we just left. But it's clear the majority of our race fans like the traditional way that we have raced. There are some new things that have happened. Double fire restarts. That seems to be a positive. I would even say the stage race. And there are some people that are really opposed to it. But for the most part, I think people appreciate the stage racing because it awards points for how you're running. They're not free. You go earn them. I think most people appreciate the fact that you have to earn those points. So there are changes that have been made that are different, that fans have embraced, but for the most part, all the other stuff, so many of our fans viewed them as gimmicks. And. And on top of that, the one race championship thing created a scenario where drivers were telling me, look, if I don't win a championship, whatever, but that's not good. Like, we have to Mark Martin. And I. Look, I. One of the major disappointments, Disappointments in my life is I never won a championship. I don't get to blame the system. I don't get to say, well, in a one race system, if the race would have been at Phoenix, I could have had a chance. But it wasn't. So I couldn't. Because I could promise you the race would have been at Michigan, I'd have never won a damn championship. So that shouldn't be, that shouldn't be right. So drivers have to believe in the authenticity of the championship. Fans need to believe in the authenticity of the championship, and many didn't. So, and, and a fair, honest effort was given to try and to get people adjusted to it, but they weren't adjusting to it, they weren't liking it. It's time to do something different. You know, doing the same thing over and over and over is not working, is crazy. And so the change was made to try to get back to who we used to be. And I think it's the right time. And I also will say that the hardest thing in life, one of the hardest things in life, business, sports, whatever, is when to do something different. If you always do everything the same, you're not going to move the ball, you're not going to get better. You have to be willing to try to do some things differently. And you can't tell me, Kenny, that if we were racing the way we raced 40 years ago, that our fans would like it because they wouldn't. They wouldn't like one car on the lead lap. They wouldn't like it. Right. So things have evolved in a positive direction, but not everything was positive and it was just time for a change.

[Kenny Wallace]

Let me preface this question. I want it to be an intelligent question. Did, did we insult our redneck fans? This is all a cliche. In other words, these are redneck fans. We're going to tell them what they want. Did we accidentally insult their intelligence because we thought we're going to give them this, you know, last race championship? We're going to, you know, throw a caution here or there for a piece of rubber on the, you know, down here by the grass. And I'm just going to state my opinion. They're smarter. They're smart and they're, they're, they're, they piped up and like, you know, there was a bigger rebellion. See, I'm like you. I didn't mind the last race determining the championship. However, I wanted a tweak. I wanted three races because I didn't want a broken jack determining the champion. Did we accidentally insult the fans intelligence? Are they smarter than what we think or thought?

[Jeff Burton]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say we Insulted their intelligence. Because I don't think anyone thinks that they're not smart. I think what happened was we took away their sport.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Okay. I like that.

[Jeff Burton]

They owned it and we changed their sport.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

We. The effort was put into making their sport better for them. They were never not considered. That's where I get. That's where I get a little frustrated with these conversations, is because when someone says they don't care what I think, you're the person they're trying to make happy. And even though you disagree with what happened, don't think for a minute that NASCAR doesn't want more fans and doesn't want a fan to be passionate about the sport. Some wrong decisions were made, right? Yeah. And you can't know you're making a wrong decision until after you made it.

[Kenny Wallace]

During all the. Let me interrupt for a minute. You know, during this 20 years, you know, as you know, I'm hyper. I want to respond. I felt like nascar. I mean, I guess they did, but I just, you know, I also felt like when things didn't go right, NASCAR needed to, like, acknowledge the fans. And I, I felt like during the 20 years, there were a lot of wrongs. And I, I felt like. I wish they would have got here. Let me say it this way. I wish NASCAR would have come out and said what you said just now. You, you just said that behind closed doors. That's what you guys were thinking of, was the fans. I don't think NASCAR parlayed that well.

[Jeff Burton]

I think. I think it's hard for someone to believe it when. When you change their sport. Yeah, Right. I think I understand why. I understand why a fan would say they don't care about me because they changed my sport. I get the sentiment. I get it. And I understand why. I feel the same way about college sports right now.

[Kenny Wallace]

Oh, my God. Don't get me going on that.

[Jeff Burton]

I mean, I do. I feel the same about college sports, and a lot of the people that I'm around tell me the same thing. Well, the same thing happened with nascar. Right. And so look, I think one of the, One of the. Over the last few years, what you've heard NASCAR saying more and more is we did get it wrong. We, we, we, we didn't. We didn't make some good decisions. Right.

[Kenny Wallace]

Steve o' Donnell was the one that kept coming out on Sirius XM saying that.

[Jeff Burton]

And so there was some acknowledgment. But. But what are we doing about it? I think the biggest thing was there wasn't a quick Enough response to, hey, we aren't getting more fans.

[Kenny Wallace]

I agree.

[Jeff Burton]

Right. I think that, look, I don't blame anybody for trying to do something that's better. I can't blame somebody for trying to do something that's better. But when you try to do something of a Coke. Coke. I've heard this example multiple times.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, I read it yesterday.

[Jeff Burton]

It's not coming from me copying somebody, but I've heard it so many times. Coke, the new Coke. Don't want that crap. Get that out of here.

[Kenny Wallace]

I want my Tommy Kendall.

[Jeff Burton]

I've heard a lot of people use that as an example and it's true. And so that was, to me, there wasn't a fast enough response back to the center, back to, okay, here's who we are. Right. But I am going to defend, I am going to defend NASCAR because I have been in closed door meetings and I can promise everybody that's listening to this that NASCAR does truly care about the fans. And it is very difficult in today's world. With social, you would think it's easier to gauge the fans in any particular item. But your algorithm on social will go to where you want it to go. Right. And if you're on this, if you're a, if you're a Republican, it goes here, if you're a Democrat, it goes there. It just, you know, and so it's very hard to, it's very hard to understand. Right. But I think the biggest mistake wasn't in trying something different. It was in not adjusting quick enough to get back.

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[Kenny Wallace]

Hey, let me ask you this because I know You're a big basketball fan. Does somebody from NASCAR call Nick Saban and Rick Pitino and say, hey, we've tried it, don't do it. So, you know, Patino comes out and says, college basketball is. He doesn't recognize it. It's ruined. Saban comes out and said, they've ruined college football. I've heard both parties, college football, college basketball, they've ruined it. Does somebody from nascar, this is tongue in cheek. Does somebody call both those people and go, look, don't we, we've been down this road. Go back to the old Coke. Go back to the old way you did it.

[Jeff Burton]

Their problem. Their problem. They've got, I don't want to get into college.

[Kenny Wallace]

That's okay. Just a quick little problem they've got.

[Jeff Burton]

Is that, that, you know, there's money involved in this thing now. And how do you, how do you. With players and, and it's not as. I will tell you this, I don't think it's as simple as people think because with all the labor laws and all the things that happen around people getting paid, it's, it's easy to say they ought to do like the NFL. Well, the NFL is collectively bargained through a union.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

That's not the same as something that's not collectively bargained through a union. So, so it's very, they have a very, very complicated issue they've got to try to resolve. The minute they said you can get paid. And look, I'm not, I don't have a problem with athletes getting paid. The university shouldn't be making all the money off the athlete and athlete not getting anything. I don't think that's right. But how do you do both? And that's where, that's where it's going to be difficult.

[Kenny Wallace]

I find this timing fascinating where NASCAR just went through this 20 year firestorm and now, you know, listen, Nick Saban, he's on that college pregame and Patino comes out and I'm like, whoa. You know, when Patino started, I'm like, oh, he's just, he's just complaining. A week later, Saban comes out about college basketball. I'm like, wow, this is a perfect storm.

[Jeff Burton]

They better pay attention. Yeah, like there's an opportunity, there's an opportunity to learn. There was an opportunity when Coke went, you know, took away the great drink that we all love. Yeah. Like there's opportunity for all of us to learn, learn from that. And, and again, I think that was the biggest, I think that was the biggest mistake on this Side, it wasn't in trying something new. It was saying, hey, this isn't working, and going back and I think college athletics will have that same problem if they don't get on it.

[Kenny Wallace]

We're, we're going to be all over the place here on purpose because everything is, you know, as they say in tv breaking news. Mark. Yeah. You know, Mark Martin on Coffee with Kenny. I'm going to marry these, these months together. Mark was here three months ago and he just said something two days ago. Mark said, kind of like what you just said. He said the Ideas were great, NASCAR's ideas were awesome. But God, I got to give Mark credit. He said, but they had unintended consequences. They, they, the ideas sound great, but here's what it did. And so now, two days ago, when Mark was there for the new, you know, the Chase is back. Mark said, I got so tired of watching tv and now this is you. He said, I got so tired of watching tv. And the announcers kept building up the playoffs, the cutoff. And he said, we forgot about the drivers. You know, Mark Martin felt like the reason the drivers are not popular right now is because Mark said, I feel like we put too much emphasis on points and cutoffs. Now, I know Mark is our dear friend, but, but Mark says, look, we got to be able to debate without being vicious.

[Jeff Burton]

Amen.

[Kenny Wallace]

What do you think about Mark saying we talk too much about cut off and points and do, did we forget about the drivers?

[Jeff Burton]

So, so I, you know, I, I, I don't mind saying this. I, I was on, I was on the group, the council, whatever you call it, that discussed points in the point system that we just left and in this point system I was in, it was in both of those. And so as this conversation evolved into, okay, where are we? Where do we need to be? One of the things that got brought up pretty early in this process was that very thing, was that, hey, although we're create these great moments, we're also talking about the guys that aren't racing for the championship. And I think there's some merit to that. But what I will also say is this, as a, as a commentator and you've done some of this, you also have to recognize that every driver has a fan.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

And we have to, in my opinion, we have to have a way to talk about more than just the top five. Now. The emphasis should always be on the people that are winning the races. But we also need to go deeper through the field. We need to tell those stories. We need to do that.

[Kenny Wallace]

ESPN used to do that. Let's go through. While you and I were racing. We'd watch the replays and they'd say, let's go through the field.

[Jeff Burton]

We do that. We do it. And you know, we will go back through the top 20. It's important to go back. Right. And I think you. But I think there's a way to do both. So one thing that, the one thing that the cutoff races did do, is it allowed you to go back. It allowed, you know, look, he's my kid. You know, people didn't like it. People liked it when Harrison won the race. They didn't like it that it got him in the playoffs.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

But a lot more people got to know Harrison because he made the playoffs. They would.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

So, you know, so I think there's always going to be a balance. No matter what the point system is about. How do you, how do you make sure you tell the stories for the sponsors, the drivers, the car owners, teams? How do you tell the stories throughout the field and also keep focus on the front of the field? Right. And look how many times, how many times. Look, this phone thing drives me nuts. The social. Matter of fact, I changed all my settings, to be honest with you. Like, it's. Some of it. Like, it's ridiculous.

[Kenny Wallace]

No notifications. Leave me alone for a little bit.

[Jeff Burton]

You can, you, you, as a commentator, I can say, man, Larson is just a badass. He's getting it done today. He's one of the best we ever had. And somebody will say, I don't know why he's always kissing Kyle Larson's ass. Because he's good. I'm going to talk about him. You know what I mean? So. And then somebody else will say, hey, why don't you ever talk about John Hunter Nemercheck? Yeah. You know, like. But both have a point. Yeah, both have a point. And how do we tell all those stories?

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, I want to bring this subject up because nas, obviously you. You kind of are NASCAR now. And, and I'll just say this. NASCAR has been good to me. They, they told me that the reason they went the top 16 in the points is they wanted to bring more drivers into the fold because of what you just said. So, you know, we look at NASCAR history and I want to make sure I explain this cleanly, has a driver 17th in the points with 10 races to go ever come and made up 16 spots and won the championship. So, you know, years ago we were told NASCAR did an analysis on that. By the way, analysis is my Word today. Yeah, Word of the day analysis. You and I are. But, but my point is this. Talking about what you're talking about, you know, did we forget about the drivers? NASCAR said the reason with 10 races to go, the reason we're choosing 16 drivers is to make sure we get as many as we can. These 16 drivers. And, you know, we watched Joey Logano take advantage of Alex Bowman being light and then, you know, win three races. I mean, with 10 races to go, can one. Can somebody 16th in the points win three races and surge to win the championship? Your thoughts, Jeff, on 16 drivers?

[Jeff Burton]

So I'm good with 16. I will say that I was part of the Chase. I think the number was 10. I think it was 10. I could be. I could be wrong about that. But in my brain, the year that I'm specifically thinking about was 10. Richmond was the last race. Mark came to my motorhome couple hours before we had to go down into the infield. It was a Saturday night race and he and I were nervous as hell about making it because it was that tight. And one of the people we were racing was Tony Stewart. And Tony Stewart's going to kick your ass at Richmond because he just is. But he wasn't running good in practice, didn't qualify well. And I'm, he and I both like, well, he's going to run, you know, he's going to run good in the race. And he didn't. And. But the, the anxiety about making that was really high. And it was without a doubt harder if it was 10 versus 16. No doubt. Now, I also think that our sport, one of the great things about our sport is that we have sponsors, we have marketing partners. And I believe that is an advantage to the marketing partners in our sport, which is very, very important to have 16 in there. And if somebody says, well, I don't like that because I understand your opinion, I get it. My opinion is that I'm okay with 16 because it gets more sponsors into the mix and our marketing partners are exceptionally valuable to our sport in general, which benefits the fans also. So I'm good with 16 because I think it gives our marketing partners more opportunity to be successful. And anything we can do to do that, I think we should be doing it.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well. I'm kind of laughing a little bit right now because I know this is going to be one of the first times in NASCAR history with three races to go. We're going to be focused on who is 17th in the points. You know, are they got. You know, that is a good thing it will accomplish. Like you said, the fans are like, my driver is 17. Then the points and you never talk about them. Well, guess what? You know, with three races to go this year, you know, we're going to be at race 23, 24, 25. Who is, you know, who's going to make the cut, who's going to make the chase for the championship. That's got to be a win, don't you think?

[Jeff Burton]

I think it's a win because I also think you're going to. You're going to start really narrowing down who the best guys are. They're going to have a win, a championship. So the comment that Mark made and that many others had made about focusing on the superstars to help build their fandom, that's going to be happening anyway. Because the way the points are structured in this thing. Kenny. Yeah, I mean, really, like the truth of the matter is you better be top six, top seven if you think you're going to win a championship. Unless you're going to have some miraculous races. This is geared to the drivers and teams that did the best. It's not geared to the people that didn't. Now you're going to get 16 in, but if you're 15th, you're going to have to have a historic 10 race effort to win this championship. Yeah, it's going to take an historic surge from you and your team to get it done. And I like that part of it because if we're going to go back, if we're going to go back to how it used to be, then we need to go back to how it used to be. And you have to put the system in place so that the people that are the best throughout the whole year have the best chance to succeed. And this program does that. And could someone win from 12th? They could. And if they do, they're going to have to do so well that no one's going to do well. That ain't the rightful champion because he's going to have kicked some ass in 10 races.

[Kenny Wallace]

There's no, what you, what you just said is important. That's what really pissed the fans off, what you just said. He's not the rightful champion.

[Jeff Burton]

That's right.

[Kenny Wallace]

What you're saying is we're going to. We should get a rightful champion with no questions.

[Jeff Burton]

You can always question it. Look, we have, we've had this conversation throughout time in the old point system. Well, that guy won three races and he won seven and he should have won a championship because he won more. Remember, we had those conversations.

[Kenny Wallace]

Rusty, one brother, Rusty won 10 races and didn't win the championship and people didn't like that.

[Jeff Burton]

So if anyone thinks that there's a point system out there that no one's going to complain, it's impossible.

[Kenny Wallace]

Quickly, I just want want you to comment on what I'm going to say now. So we know we're going to go 26 races. It's very simple. We're going to reset. The man that is leading the points is going to be receded. He's going to be 2100. The second place is going to be 25 less that's going to be 2075. So the leader has earned a 25 point advantage on the Chase for the championship. Then it's going to go down 10 points and then by the time we get the third and fourth, it's five point increments. Just comment on that Simplicity. It seems like all of you involved at NASCAR driver, you know, council board, it seemed like you all really zoned in on. God, I can explain this deal in 15 seconds now.

[Jeff Burton]

Well, we did, but we also zoned in on the other, the other one. That was complicated as hell. But it was complicated because we were, it was trying to award people that did the best. Like so, yes, the previous was complicated, but it was complicated trying to award people to make sure that they had success. It just wasn't a big enough gap when, when it reset. But simplicity matters for sure. You shouldn't have to have a document that no one could understand. I can remember sitting down after this previous thing was done with members of the media walking them through it and they'd be like, hold on a minute. You know what I mean? Here's why it's like that.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, okay, that makes sense. Here's, here's why. Oh, that makes sense. But you don't get to sit down with the, with all the race fans and say, okay, here's how the points work. And all of them say, well, how does that. Well, here's why. Oh, you know what I mean? It's like it has to needs to be quick and easy to explain. And you know, certainly this one's way easier than the previous one.

[Kenny Wallace]

I knew we were in trouble when, you know, we start the year out with fox and Larry McCrendell says, Now I know this is difficult to understand, but just follow along with this everybody. We'll keep you tuned in. I'm like, oh boy, this when you need a half a year to explain to everybody how the points are. Yeah, okay, well Listen, we got a lot more to talk about here and man, me and you can, you and I can go a long time because although I'm a little off centered, we are like minded. I want to talk about Ben Kennedy for a minute. We've had Ben Kennedy on Kenny conversation and Ben was good to me and I, I flat said, Ben, I gotta rough you up one time. And he said, he said, bring it. And I said, what? And I said to Ben, I said, ben, what happened in nascar? And he said, kenny, it was a perfect storm. You know, we had, you know, what was it, 2008? You know, the mortgages, you know, people were losing their homes, we had a bad economy. And then he said, you know, and this is a compliment, you know, Jeff Burton retired, Bobby Labonte retired, Jeff Gordon, Rusty Mark, Tony Stewart, it was like within a five year span, all the drivers that were famous were gone. And I agreed with Ben. I want you to encapsulate that in your own. And I'm going to rough you up one time. What the hell happened to nascar? I mean, I know what I think, but how did we lose our way? Trying too hard or his or Tony or Kenny Schrader said too many people in the room.

[Jeff Burton]

Maybe, maybe too many people in the room. But I think ultimately from what I see and what I've experienced is, you know, a lot of people say, well, they don't care about me, you know, and again, that's not right. They may not have agreed with you, but they did care. And I think just trying too hard. I think ultimately we all, that's simple.

[Kenny Wallace]

That's simple.

[Jeff Burton]

I mean we all, we all love the sport, we want other people to love the sport. We want more people to come see it, we want more people to come watch it. We want, we don't want it to be worse, right? None of us want it to be worse. And I think through that, how do you get there? And you know, the obvious low hanging fruit is let's go find fans that we don't already have. That's common sense, right? Isn't that kind of common sense? Yeah, it didn't work. And so, so, you know, we what, what I think happened in, in, in through the years is that, you know, somebody's grandparent took them to the race, somebody's parent took him to the race and it passed along kind of generation to generation. And then we said, hey, let's go find the new dad. And trying to find the new dad that was going to take his kid to the race. We forgot about the guy that was already taking his kids the race and we were changing his nascar. And the key to that, it was his. He owned it, he grew up with it and it got changed and now it's not his. Now it's somebody else's. And that possessive feeling is what, that's what we need. We need people to feel like it's theirs because it is. Without the fans, we're not crap. We're not crap. And we just, as an industry, we just, I think, try too hard.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, very. You cleaned it up very well.

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[Kenny Wallace]

Okay. And, and, and I'm, I'm satisfied with that answer. I really am. Because I've so, I've told people before, I said, people, don't be so gullible. NASCAR doesn't hate you. They, you know, Jeff Burton and his colleagues are not there at NASCAR going, let's piss the fans off. That's just not happening. So, so I agree with you. But you know what, it's comedy.

[Jeff Burton]

But at the same time, Kenny, we also can't ignore that they felt that way.

[Kenny Wallace]

No, we've learned a lot, man.

[Jeff Burton]

And, and, and so today is a new day.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

And yeah, NASCAR has shifted.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

NASCAR has acknowledged the mistakes not just in words but in action. And you know, like I think a lot of us have, a lot of us are, you know, made mistakes through our lives. A lot of us, you know, have been affected by the mistakes that other people made. And a lot of has made mistakes that affected other people. And so what I would say is that, you know, let's, let's appreciate the fact that NASCAR said, okay, we got to change this. Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

And, but get back.

[Jeff Burton]

Did it take too long? Oh, yeah. Did it? Could things have been done differently? Yeah. But I also would ask for some open minded, open mindedness. When people think about nascar. NASCAR don't hate you. NASCAR needs you. Right. They really made some decisions they thought were best for you and they were wrong. Yeah. So they're writing the ship, they're riding it and you can, you can choose to stay mad at it. I've said that, you know, like that's your choice and if that's the direction you go, then that's the direction you go. I don't think anyone should tell you how you should think or how you should feel or what you should do. I would ask you that you give NASCAR a second chance and to appreciate that they ultimately did make some decisions, that your voice was heard and you know, and come check a race out. The racing, regardless of what you're eating and regardless of what people are telling you, the racing is pretty damn good. We got the best mile and a half racing we've ever had. And if you go back and think about the end of last year, the Goodyear has done a great job with tires and changes have been made to the car. The short track racing started getting pretty damn good too. Like, you know, so don't, don't shut it out and say these guys aren't as good. I hear this all the time, man. These guys aren't as good as y' all were. Bull. Yes.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hey, hey. The racers coming out of me right now, you know, I'm still running good. You know, we were testing at Wilkesboro. The boy, you know, the drivers were. I say we, I just feel like I'm still in the sport like you. So we got that 50 more horsepower and you know, some of the drivers like that's not going to make a difference. But you know, whatever I was excited to see, I'm not, I'm not going to go where you think I'm going to go with this. I was excited to see the cars on the track at Wilkesboro. Do, do we need to get back just a little bit more practice at the racetrack? There is a theory that the reason there's no more RVs than there used to be is there's just nothing going on that, you know, the, the cup cars are getting on the track Saturday at 4:00. Should we, you know, Brad Keselowski's come out. We need more practice.

[Jeff Burton]

So. So, you know, I don't, I won't, I won't sit here to claim and that if we had more practice, we would have more RVs. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I do know this. I think that taking our product away doesn't seem like the best way to promote.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hasn't helped. It hasn't.

[Jeff Burton]

Like, you know, I understand, I understand there's some advantages, you know, and not having as much practice. Some people think it makes the racing better. Obviously, financially it's better for the owners and what's been a little bit of a tough time for them that, you know, but at the end of the day, do you have better. Do you have a better product because you take it away. Right. And so, you know, for our, for our hardcore fans, which is what this entire conversation is about. This and all these changes have been made for the hardcore fan. Make no mistake about it. That's who they, that's what they've been made for. I think they want to see cars on track.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

I really do. I think they do. And I'd like to think that there's going to be a day that we do get back to have cars on track more often than what we currently do. We, of all the motorsports that are televised on a nationwide or worldwide feed, I would say have the least F1 practices for, you know, they're three day events. IndyCar has multiple day events. I think we're on track now. Races alonger. But I think outside of the race, I think we're probably on. On track. Less than, less than our lesson.

[Kenny Wallace]

There was, there was a. Now, the reason I bring this subject up, I was, I was pleasantly surprised. There was a couple hundred fans, 100, 200 fans that showed up at Wilkesboro, you know, and, you know, they got a good social media and that's where I saw it, you know, but still, I mean, you know, there was, there were some cars there and they were jacked up. And, and I hear this all the time, you know, from some of the track promoters, you know, NASCAR track promoters, they confide in us, you know, they'll. They'll confide in you and like, damn, Herman, we got to get some cars on the track.

[Jeff Burton]

I will say this now. To go against that theory. And again, I don't have the answer. I don't know. I will say this. I was shocked when I started doing television 10 years ago, how few people were in the stands for practices. Pre Covid, I was surprised. When you're down there in the garage, you're like this. All you're doing is, how fast did we go? You're not really paying attention to anything else.

[Kenny Wallace]

You mentioned something really interesting. You say Formula one is on the track a lot. They do a lot of practicing compared to nascar.

[Jeff Burton]

I want to have a little bit.

[Kenny Wallace]

Of fun with you about this. How does F1 get away with such boring racing? I mean, there's no racing, but there is a mass of people that just think it's unbelievable. Are we that different? Is. Is Europe truly across the pond? I mean, Formula one is invading America.

[Jeff Burton]

They're.

[Kenny Wallace]

They are doing good over here. How do they get away with no racing?

[Jeff Burton]

Well, the. The drivers are great. I mean, they're. They are unbelievably talented drivers. Let's be clear about that. It's just different. You know what I mean? It's.

[Kenny Wallace]

It's.

[Jeff Burton]

It's just a different form of racing. I wouldn't, you know, to me, I naturally prefer what we're accustomed to more, but at the same token, you know, the. The. That is what F1 racing. To my knowledge, I don't know what happened in the 50s and the 60s, let's be clear. I don't know. But to my knowledge, my experience with F1 is that's really what it is. The fastest car is going to by far have the best chance to win the race. And qualifying matters so much more. There are less cars. Let's be clear. There are less cars.

[Kenny Wallace]

20, 20 cars.

[Jeff Burton]

I mean, that's a big difference. Right. And as that spreads the feel out in and of itself, if they had more cars, that would help, you know, from what you. And I'd like to see, that would help that it's just different. And I will say this. The. I believe it was a Netflix series did a tremendous amount to bring popularity to them. I have a lot of people come up to me and say, my wife watches F1. And I'll say, why? And she says, that Netflix series, you know what I mean? So it did. It did that series some good in this country anyway, for some. Sure. But it's just. It's just a different form of racing. And their fans appreciate and are okay. They like what they see. And it's a good example. Like, I hear people talk about, you know, as the. The company that. That bought F1 Liberty. Yeah. Trying to change it a little bit. Some of their fans don't like that. They're changing it some of their fans don't want it to be, you know, they're asking it to be more competitive. So, you know, it'll be interesting to see where they go with it.

[Kenny Wallace]

I just wanted to bring that up. I did, I did want to. I am in a, you know, the great Dick Trickle, who we lost, he was a philosopher, besides being a great race car driver. And I just, I just do want to point that out, that it is hard because people in Europe or around the world, they're fine with that because they just like the car and, you know, and they don't care about the racing. But, you know, and I say that with respect. Everybody knows what I mean. You know, the guy wins by a mile, Max Verstappen. And then, I mean, you can go six seconds and here comes second, and, and that's true. And they're just, you. I just think it is fascinating the difference in a NASCAR fan and a Formula one fan. Could you imagine if one of our guys won by six seconds? I mean, it happened in our old days.

[Jeff Burton]

So we hear it, we hear it when it happens. I remember Dale Jarrett kicked our butts in Michigan so bad, and you would have thought the world was coming to an end. Right? How bad, how bad that race was? I remember that as clear as day.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, you've been wonderful. And just a couple things here. Number one, with the two things left, what, what was or what is the now, this is a Kenny Schrader deal. We do Herman Schrader. What was the obsession? What is the obsession? Why does NASCAR feel like we have to go overseas? What am I missing?

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, that's a great question. I think. Just, just trying to grow the sport. I mean, ultimately, you know, the all, every, everything that we have talked about today was trying to grow the sport. Right? And finding the right way to do that. Look, I don't know the right answer. I, I, I, I believe in my heart that going to Canada makes a ton of sense. Did you ever race? Did you ever go run that?

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, but I don't feel like Canada is overseas. I feel like it's just another state, you know?

[Jeff Burton]

Yeah, it's not overseas. Yeah, but, but, you know, so I don't know. I, I don't know.

[Kenny Wallace]

They love us up there, by the way.

[Jeff Burton]

Oh, my gosh. Massive, huge race fans, NASCAR fans. I just think it's just the conversation about growing the sport. You know what I mean? How, how can we grow the sport? And those are decisions that, you know, Ben Kennedy, that you talked about earlier, he'll be Having heavy into those discussions about, you know, what is the right thing to do, if anything. And again, I. If, if you don't ever do anything, you are going to fail.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

When do you do something different? That's the most difficult part of the decisions that we have to make in our lives and NASCAR has to make. Make. When do you do something different? And what is that different? You can't always stay the same. The Model T was awesome until the next car was built. That was a whole lot better.

[Kenny Wallace]

Good point.

[Jeff Burton]

And you know, this, this thing right here, Kenny, no one knew, no one knew we needed it until we had it.

[Kenny Wallace]

It's so funny. Kim and I will be. And we are. It is a disease because Kim and I will be watching TV and we'll be on our phones and I know everybody does it. It's. We are messed up human beings.

[Jeff Burton]

We didn't know. We didn't know if. No, we didn't know we needed it. We didn't know we wanted it. We didn't even know we wanted that damn thing until we got it.

[Kenny Wallace]

We learned. We also learned that people don't want to answer the phone. They just want to answer a text. Don't talk to me, text me.

[Jeff Burton]

Wow.

[Kenny Wallace]

Is there a difference? They're sure to hell is. Okay. Last but not least, Mr. Jeff Burton. Is this firestorm, Is it over? Or do we need to wait a little more?

[Jeff Burton]

Well, that's a great question. Look, I think our sport, and every sport will be challenged throughout. Throughout its existence. Baseball, America's pastime.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jeff Burton]

Has struggled recently. Right. And, and, and why? What, what happened to baseball? Did the baseball do something bad? You know what I mean?

[Kenny Wallace]

Good point. They are, they are looking for kids.

[Jeff Burton]

To play baseball nowadays, you know, so, so things change. You know, trends change. You know, I, there's, I have a bell bottom jean theory. You know, we wore bell bottom jeans because we thought I loved them, you know? Right. But you wouldn't wear it now.

[Kenny Wallace]

No.

[Jeff Burton]

And bell bottom jeans didn't change. Change.

[Kenny Wallace]

Got to be tight to your legs now. We changed.

[Jeff Burton]

Right. So, so how do you, how do you. You're never going to stay ahead of the curve all the time. It's impossible. I think this is the first, this is the, this is the latest move to try to draw. Draw the sport where it needs to be. In this case, it's by looking backwards. It's by saying, hey, we tried to look forward in these ways and it didn't work. So let's look backwards. Let's look at what our Fans truly expect us to be make an adjustment. NASCAR had the courage to say, okay, we got let's. They had the courage to make changes that they thought ultimately would be good long term decisions. They now had the courage to say we were wrong. Let's go back and do. I think starting at Daytona, we're now always going to all of a sudden going to have the largest viewers ship ever in the history of the Daytona 500 because we. This change was made. I don't think that. No, I think we're going to have to build our sport a day at a time, an hour at a time, a race at a time. There is no magic pill that we're going to take that's going to get us back to the max popularity that we were. This is a step toward what we all hope is the right thing. None of us really know, do we? No, none of us really know.

[Kenny Wallace]

One thing's for sure there. I'm going to tune into that truck race because I want to watch Tony Stewart and that's going to be. That's going to be awesome.

[Jeff Burton]

I think it's fair to believe that we, I think it's fair to say that we all believe this is the right step. Yeah, right. But do, but none of us really know. And so time will tell. And getting back to the essence of what winning a championship means, having drivers feel that it means something, having drivers agonize over not winning one, having fans believe it's more, much more authentic. How is that part wrong? Yeah, that can't be wrong. But does it ultimately yield, does it ultimately get more viewers watching? Only time will tell that, but for sure it is more authentic to what this sport has been in its past.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Mr. Jeff Burton, you've been wonderful, my friend. I really appreciate it. The analysis of NASCAR is the firestorm over and I'm excited to get to Daytona. All right, everybody, as I say every time, thank you.

[Jeff Burton]

Before, before you shut off. Thank you for what you do. I think these podcast are so important to, they're so important to our fans to have these podcasts, to be able to listen to different opinions, to be able to. You have your guest on. You are very honest, very straightforward. Your guests, come on. Are very honest. It's very straightforward. Our fans deserve honesty even if they may not want to hear something. Our fans deserve to hear honesty. And you are one of several that have a major impact because it allows our fans to hear from the people that are doing it, from the people that have done it, the people that know the sport. Because you lived it right. And you went to the hospital because of it. You went. You know, and it's so important for our fans, and we're nothing without our fans. And these outlets and these opportunities for the fans are paramount to our success, and they deserve it. And, you know, you taking time to do this, you could be working on your dirt car and, you know, hanging out at a swimming pool. Maybe not today, but hanging out at the pool. Yes, but you're not. And it's vital to our fan base that they have these outlets. And it's a great opportunity to hear different opinions, not just. Not just towing the NASCAR line, not just towing a particular driver's line, not just. But telling the truth as you see it, and your guests coming on and telling the truth as they see it, I think. And we can see two things and both have different opinions, but having that opportunity to have civil conversations, disagree in a civil way, and make people think right, and have people make us think, that's vital to the success of our sport, and you play a major role in that.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, thank you, Jeff. You know, I admire you. You. I just appreciate you very much.

[Jeff Burton]

Same here.

[Kenny Wallace]

Thank you a lot. You're the real deal, and your. Your. Your talent is massive. I'm just thinking of Mark Martin right now when you were talking. I just. I got to go back. I know I'm repeating this, but Mark Martin says we got to have a civilian conversation without being so vicious and. All right with that, everybody. I remind everybody all the time, if you want. If you want to see Jeff Burton's pretty face. Remember, if you want. If you want to see us, log on the Kenny Wallace YouTube show. And by the way, Jeff Burton is shaving up today. And. And if you're headed to Daytona for speed weeks and you want to listen to Jeff Burton, we are on Dirty Mo Media. That's Dale Jr's Dirty Mo Media podcast, and a lot of people do listen on their way to Daytona for speed wakes. Until the next Kenny conversation. We'll see you all next time. Goodbye, everybody. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, Tick Tock, and Instagram.

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