D (3:46)

It's really a pretty interesting story, Kenny, and I'll just give you the treetop version. I did not come from a racing background whatsoever. I was an only child. My mom and dad could care less about racing. But my grandfather, my mom's dad and my aunt, my mom's sister, who was really probably more like a sister to me because she was only 10 years older than I was. The three of us every Friday night would walk down about 10 or 15 minutes from my grandparents house to the local racetrack called BIR Birmingham International Raceway. And we'd watch the local races, just the three of us. I mean every Friday night. And then eventually my aunt got married and her husband was a race fan. So the four of us every Friday night. You know, I was still in, you know, high school. You know, this has been like 1974, 1975. Well, my aunt was actually a little bit of a hot rodder. And this one particular night at the racetrack they started a brand new division called street stock Hobby division. It was as stock a race car as you could think about building. It had a one page of rules. You would take the seats out, the windows out, you could do a little work on the suspension, on the engine. You put the fuel tank up at the trunk, put a few roll bars in it, put a number on it, Boom. You had a street stock hobby car. Well, the first night they started this division, my aunt looked at her husband, said I bet I could do that. And he said, well I tell you what, go out and find you some sponsors and we'll build you a race car. We'll be in a female in a man's world. She went out, rounded up more sponsors and we almost had room on the car to put my racing career started in their basement. And I didn't know a three quarter wrench from a three quarter socket. I didn't know a three quarter inch from a three quarter boat. But I learned quickly. I was like a sponge. And my racing career started there in their basement. Building her that street stock hobby car.

A (5:48)

What a story. Now, Larry Birmingham, is this the legendary racetrack that I raced at the greats of race that was there was this the outdoor movie theater on the back straightaway?

D (6:00)

Yeah. The football field in the high school football field in the middle, which is the reason they never could race past Labor Day because high school football started and they had put grandstands up that would block the back straightaway. So we would always race from about mid April. And the final race of the year was always Labor Day because high school football started the next week.

A (6:22)

I'll be darn. I remember I ran Birmingham maybe once, one or two times. And I would come off of a turn to in the movies, be playing.

D (6:30)

Yeah. Once in a while they'd be an X rated movie going on.

A (6:34)

You know, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up the great Bobby Allison or the Alabama game. So did they inspire you in your early days because they were from Birmingham?

D (6:46)

Yeah, Hueytown, right outside. You know, a lot of people linked my relationship, Kenny with Davey Allison, because we were both from that area. But I really did not get to know Davey. Davey just was starting to come along, doing some racing after I'd already moved to the Carolinas in 1980 to pursue my NASCAR career. Obviously, I was huge Allison fans. Alabama gang, Red Farmer, Neil Bonnet, Bobby and Donnie Allison. But the only connection I had with Donny Allison is when I got the opportunity to move to the Carolinas in mid-1980 to pursue a NASCAR career. I guess I was wanting somebody to give me, it's okay to go do this. So I went out to Donnie's late model shop out there in Hueytown, and I chased him around his late model car for about an hour before he finally stopped and said, what can I do for you? And I told him what my plan was. And Donnie always has a way of getting about that close to your face and poking you in the chest while he's talking to you. Yeah. And he said, you know what? I'll tell you something, Larry Mack, you need to go up there and you need to do that. You need to pursue that. But he said, I'll tell you one damn thing. That checkered flag that y' all won the other night, I'd already moved on and was actually working with Mike Alexander on a super late model. He said, I'll tell you one damn thing. You need to find that checkered flag y' all want a couple of weeks ago because it's going to be a long damn time. Maybe ever before. You ever see another one in Kenny? My first win as a crew chief at watkins Glen in 1988 with Ricky Rudd, the 26 car. The first person I thought about when Ricky took the checkered flag was Donnie Allison. What he had told me about eight or nine years prior to that, what.

A (8:38)

Is that about all of us, Larry? You know, we've had a lot of greats on here and now you. And whenever I talk to them about everything they've done, they always go back to their childhood. I find this as common for somebody as yourself. You know, you've won, obviously, two Daytona five hundreds, and. And the first thing you bring up is like, the other greats.

D (9:04)

Do you.

A (9:04)

You. You brought up something that happened early in your life. Is this what molds us? Is. Is this who we really are? Even when we get to be, you know, in the big leagues, you immediately go right back to years before, you know.

D (9:20)

I think it is, Kenny, because I know it's what. What inspired me. It's. It's what gave me aspirations to grow in the sport and eventually be a part of NASCAR and not have to work a job and then work on race cars as a volunteer to enjoy the thrill of racing. And, you know, I talked about my mom and dad not being race fans. You know, Talladega opened in 1969, and I think it was about 1974. I was maybe, I don't know, 14, 15 years old. I finally convinced my dad to take me to Talladega. And it was the one race that Dick Brooks won driving that number 22. I think it was a black Dodge. And I remember our seats. Yeah, I was. I was intrigued by the racing on the racetrack, but what intrigued me was watching pit road, watching Leonard Wood run around and change that tire. Harry Hyde, Herb nab, watching Sterling Marlin Jack his dad's car, Cuckoo's car, watching Junior Johnson. That's what intrigued me. And I think I knew then that my aspirations was to eventually grow in the sport of motor. Motor racing and eventually be a part of nascar. In. To know I set those grandstands in the early 70s and then spin it ahead to 1992 with a 28 car and Davey Allison and be able to win at Talladega with Davey.

A (10:50)

That.

D (10:50)

That was pretty darn cool. It wasn't the biggest win of my career, but because of being at Talladega, it goes pretty high up the sheep.

A (10:58)

I feel like you were so good that you didn't have a lot capital letters. You did not have a lot of crew Chief jobs, obviously. Kenny Bernstein, the Quaker state car, you know, Richard Childress, Robert Yates. Who am I missing in the big time? When you made it to the cup series, how many, how many am I off right there?

D (11:25)

Well, not, not a lot because there, there were some early years, you know. Again, I came in in September of 1980 and I went to work for that little team in Greenville, South Carolina, Rogers Leasing, racing the 37 car. And you know, Kenny, before I left Birmingham, I remember my mom and dad looking at me going, this is the craziest thing we've ever seen. You'll be back in six months, you'll be broke, you'll be hungry, but we're not going to bail you out of debt. And as much as I always respected what my mom and dad told me, I said, you probably are right. And, but I got to go try it. And there were some trying times in those early years. I felt like a pattern that was happening is I would go to work for a race team and we'd race for six or eight months and then they'd run out of money and close the doors and I'd have to go find another job. That went on a lot in the early part of my career. But you may not know this, so I worked for Rogers leasing racing end of 80, 81 and up until the Coke 600 at Charlotte in May of 82. And then Bob shut the doors and he told me, he said, you've got a job as long as you want a job. And he said, I know you didn't move up here to work at a body shop or a car leasing company. But the only thing I'm going to ask you help me get my stuff ready for an auction. So I agree. Bob was good to me, so I helped him get everything for ready for an auction. It was in late June or early July. It was a two day auction and Mark Martin and his mom, Jackie Martin came to the auction. This was Mark's rookie year. That number O2 Apache stove car.

A (13:05)

Yes.

D (13:06)

So they came to the auction and about halfway through the second day, Jackie Martin, Mark's mom, kind of came around the corner and kind of said, what are your plans? I said, jackie, I have no idea. I think I actually called Ms. Martin. I have no idea. Yeah, but I said I promised I'd get Bob through this auction and I'll go from there. She said, why don't you come up and see me next week? So got through the auction next week. Their shop was right there on the corner of 29 where the speedway is not the road that runs good.

A (13:42)

Your building was exactly.

D (13:45)

That's where their little shop was. So I went up there and again, Mark's mom kind of ran the team and, and we talked for a little bit. And Kenny, 15 minutes in the conversation, they wanted me to be the crew chief. I've only been in this. I've only been in the cup series two years. She said, don't worry about it. Mark Martin is going to make his own calls on this race car. We've got herb nab that's coming in and getting the car ready. We just need you to go and make sure what Mark wants done gets executed. I said, okay, if you are game, I'm game. And lo and behold, the first race we went to was Pocono. We finished 10. But again, Mark, you know that, that, that deal fizzled out. By the end of the year. I was, I was hunting a job again. But yeah, my first crew chief job was actually with Mark Martin his rookie season. But, yeah, Bobby Hawkins in 1985 with Morgan Shepard. We ran a very limited schedule. And then that's when Kenny Bernstein came in. And that was really my first major crew chief job was with that Quaker State car. Kenny Bernstein start in 1986 with O Joe Rutman driving it.

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A (17:06)

I really feel like your strong suit listening to Jackie Martin, Mark Martin's mother. I think they were good business people. They came out of Arkansas, had jmi, Julian Martin incorporated trucking. They were all pretty smart. My opinion is your strong suit is you are an incredible organizer. You know, I drove for you. I want, I bet people right now that you have your notes from when I drove that Texco Havilland car. I bet you have the tire sheets. You're. Did you do you know that? Has anybody ever told you that you're so organized and I think that's a strong suit for you?

D (17:54)

Well, I have people that will ask me, kenny, you know, why, why were you a successful crew chief? And they might expect the answer to be, well, I worked hard. I understood race cars. I worked well with drivers. I never found a single driver I didn't enjoy working with. And all of that's probably true. But to me, the things I contributed the most to is I worked very hard at surrounding myself with people that were smarter than I was. If I was the smartest guy on the race team, woe be into us. We were going to be in big, big trouble. But I always felt like I was a good communicator. I feel like that is the success of any person in any type of business is being a good communicator, especially when you're, you're the leader when you're the crew chief. And I would never ask anybody to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. I wouldn't know better than then the guy that drove the truck or the guy that cleaned the lug nuts. We all came on this earth equal, naked and screaming. And that's the way we're going to leave it one day.

A (19:05)

So I'm going to call an audible right now on Kenny conversation. It means this is not a perfect interview and that's what makes it fun for all of us. As we said earlier, Roll Tide. I see the, you know, the nice logo for Alabama football. Nick Saban, you know, the coach for Alabama football. I know how much you love him.

D (19:30)

You.

A (19:30)

You worship Alabama football like I worship my Cardinals. I almost feel like Nick Saban and you are a match because you tend to get the most out of people. So specifically in the last 10 years or however long Saban's been there, have you. You and him communicated? Is it. Have you talked about leadership in any manner or how's that went?

D (19:58)

I. I have only met Nick Saban one time. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to go to. This was several years ago to one of their practice sessions. They were getting ready to play Arkansas, and he came up and introduced himself. I introduced myself, and it was a very short conversation. Even Eli Gold, the voice of Alabama football, will tell you, Nick Saban engages with people that can help him win football game. And that's pretty much the end of it, right?

A (20:30)

Yeah, but.

D (20:31)

But I do think, you know, all of my years as a crew chief, Kenny, I really didn't know about Nick Saban. You know, I mean, he was coaching. I mean, he coached at Michigan State. Of course, he was down there at the Dolphins, the Cleveland Browns, but, you know, he didn't come to. To Alabama 2008, 2009. But two things that I do see some similarities in my attitude, in my approach and what I see with Nick Saban, not that my success could even hold a candle to what Nick Saban has accomplished, is we both hate losing more than we enjoy winning. And even when you win, it's about the next. It's about the next race, it's about the next game. I remember I talked about that Talladega race that we won in 1992 with Davey. And we. We were right in the thick of the championship. It was still early in the season. I remember Linda and the kids being down there, and we had drove down and she said, liz wants us to come out to their house to kind of celebrate. I said, linda Mack, we're headed back to Charlotte. We got work to do tomorrow. We got a race next weekend, and we're in the thick of this championship. And I think that's what Nick Saban, his approach. He loves winning football games, but you're only as good as your last game. And that's what I always looked at it. I'm only as good as our last race. We got to move on and get ready for the next one.

A (22:00)

I guess that sometimes I've been so focused, so stressed out that I use happiness or laughing because I'm so intense. I've always said that there's a certain amount of misery required to be successful. What do you think of that?

D (22:21)

You know, I think there's a fine line. You know, I wrote a book, I wrote three books. In my last book that I wrote a few years ago, Kenny was called the Constant Pursuit of Perfection. And that's how I kind of patterned myself all of my years. And honestly it's still the way I go about trying to do my broadcasting. Whether it's on Fox or FS1 or Sirius Radio. You know, be content with what you've accomplished. But you have to always think about what can I do better? You know, anytime I do a broadcast on TV or a broadcast on the on track show on serious or maybe go do a keynote speech when I finish, I immediately start evaluating what can I do to be better the next time. If you think you've tapped out, if you've hit the ceiling, that you can't be any better, then you're going to probably start not being successful. It's always evaluate what you can do to be better the next time. And that's what I've always kind of done. And that's what I do today with my broadcasting. Right.

A (23:31)

I, I find it a little slow for me to get to your TV career because you know, from one racer to another we, we both kind of traveled the same roads, you know, racers to TV. But let's do it just a little bit more. 2. You are a two time Daytona 500 winning crew chief. Those, that is our granddaddy of them all. That's what makes careers. So let's, let's go through both of them. Let's go to the first one. You win the Daytona 5001992 with Davey Allison. What do you remember about that race?

D (24:08)

Well, it was a really interesting weekend. You know, when it was a speed weeks with an S. Back then we were down there about two weeks. Robert Yates and I and even Davey, we was not afraid to go left when everybody else was going right. And back then the rules were so different and we were obviously in the Busch clash the weekend before we made the decision before going to Daytona. We're going to run our Daytona 500 car in the Busch clash. What a better test session than the Bush Clash. Now we had to work our guts out to do this because of back and forth and back and forth bush clash practice, getting ready to qualify for the Daytona 500. But the rules allowed it and we ended up finishing third in the bush clash. And we felt like we learned a lot. Well, this was a great plan in place until the last practice on Wednesday afternoon about halfway through it somebody lost an engine going off in the one Davey got no and we hit the wall and destroyed our primary car.

A (25:17)

Oh my gosh.

D (25:19)

Unload the backup. And I ran to Gary Nelson and I said can we get just one lap? He said I'll give you five minutes. We Doug Yates was warming that car up as we were lowering the tailgate down and Gary Nelson gave us five minutes after practice was over unheard off today and we had started to tail into the field. And here's the funny story Kenny. The second dual race back then they were still 125 milers. They would line them up on the road course in the infield and they would leave once the first race was over and they would leave going off in the turn one. So we were in the second race in Kenny. The first race was a disaster. These cars were sideways on pit road so loose. So I remember watching this and it's like oh my God, we've got five minutes of practice with this race car. We got to start at the rear of the field. So I remember about the time Davey was should be in the race car And I kept trying to call him Dave, you got Larry, you got me, you got me. No answer. Finally Gary Beveridge and I had went down there with him to buckle him in. I said, Gary answered me, I said where is Davey? He said he's behind the car kicking the out of the spoiler with his foot.

A (26:47)

He knew put more spoiler more downforce.

D (26:52)

Oh yeah, that first race. So anyhow we ended up finishing third. And so the bottom line is we won that race with a backup car. But here's another story. It didn't take long into that race to realize our toughest competition was Ernie Irvin in the 4 car and the two Junior Johnson cars, Sterling Marlin and Bill Elliott fours that those four were the class of the field. Well they used to pay a $10,000. I think it was maybe from Gillette. Halfway money.

A (27:28)

I remember that.

D (27:29)

So lap 100. Those four knuckleheads were racing like it was for the 500 win and basically took each other out except we, we didn't get involved. Wow. Then after Sterling Bill and Ernie was eliminated, it's our race to lose. The only team that can beat us if we beat them, beat ourselves and we ended up winning the race.

A (27:52)

That, that is an incredible story. I had no idea. But I do remember that that extra money. You know nowadays Larry they say we're going to do this race in stages and give you points. Hell, they should have just Done that now. Offered big money.

D (28:07)

Oh, yeah, yeah. That $10,000, that was. That was big money because the 500 only paid about 200,000 to win back then. It wasn't that million dollars like what you get now.

A (28:20)

So this is not to be said lightly. You win the 1992 Daytona 500 with Davey Allison as. And then you do something that is ricocheted throughout the world. Dale Earnhardt senior, the man in black, number three, has done it all, but he has never won the Daytona 500. And Formula 1. Drivers throughout Europe, you know, they knew the Dale Earnhardt senior story.

D (28:47)

They all knew.

A (28:48)

Everybody knew. And lo and behold, right there, the man I'm looking at right now. Oh. Larry Mack, America's crew chief. You win the Daytona 500 with the great Dale Earnhardt senior. So once again, what do you remember?

D (29:09)

Well, it's always flattering when people say what you just said, Kenny. And I. And I appreciate it a lot. I still have fans today that come up to me and go, you're the man.

A (29:18)

You're the man.

D (29:19)

Okay, that's sounds good. But I just happened to be the fortunate guy that was his crew chief and was in place when he didn't blow up. He didn't run out of fuel. He didn't have a flat tire going off in the turn three on the final lap. He didn't hit a seagull on the back straightaway. I just happened to be the guy that was in place when all this came together. And, you know, my first year with him was 97. And so the first race was the 1997 Daytona 500. And we had had a very, very up and down day. The car was not driving that good. We had some really bad pit stops. But with Dale Earnhardt somehow, some way, with about 20 to go, we're leading the race. And I remember looking at Richard Childers and going, what do you think, boss? He said, been here way too many times. Well, with about 12 to go, I realized what he was talking about because we were barrel rolling down the back straightaway where the car had picked up a push off too. And I think it might have been Gordon gets into his left rear and we're barrel rolling. So I totally knew what, what Richard was talking about. And honestly, Kenny, something I never thought would ever, ever happen, because trust me, when I went to Richard Childish racing and I'm paired up with probably one of the greatest race car drivers to ever grip a steering wheel. And I had taken everything that I had learned at Robert Yates Racing, it wasn't A matter if we could get him another championship. It's, how many more can we get him, Kenny? We went winless 1997. I thought I was going to have to hire a bodyguard. I could not even wear a good wrench uniform in or out of that racetrack because people were accusing me of sabotaging Dale Earnhardt's career. It got really bad near the end of 97, but mid February of 1998, hell, I could have run for president. Probably got boats after winning that 500. But we built that car in mid-1997, before January testing had even come along. In 98, that car had already been in the wind tunnel two or three times. There is no telling. There were no testing rules back then. There is no telling how many laps Dave Marcus tested that car at Talladega. We'd probably been to Talladega two or three times. And honestly, we almost cut the body off of that car before we ever went to the track to test it. But thank the good Lord we didn't. And the reason we were about to cut the body off. Kenny, you've been to the wind tunnel. You'll understand the terminology. The drag number was just not that low. But what made that car good is when you yawed it in the wind tunnel, the drag number didn't go up. The drag number stayed the same. And Dave Marcus, the first time he drove it, he told me, he said, dale's going to love this car. He said, when I go off in the corner and I turn the steering wheel, it doesn't lose any rpm. Wow. And that's what made that car so good. No idea why we didn't have all the roamer arms and all the stuff back then. Hell, the way we put a body on back then, well, right there, we could never duplicate that car. But that's what made that car so good.

A (32:51)

Let me interrupt you. I have to, because I think you can help me understand something because I never got to the bottom of this. How come Dale Earnhardt senior did not test that much? And why did Dave Marcus do so much testing for senior?

D (33:09)

Well, one Richard helped Dave out a lot, especially with the engines. And some. Just some information for the two super speedways, Daytona and Talladega. But Dale would just get bored. Yeah. Went up there and he came to the shop for the first time. I said, okay, Dale, let's talk about a testing schedule. What do you mean, testing schedule? I said, well, where we're going to go test? Well, what the hell we going to test? I said, well, we're going to try to test things. That makes us better. He just, he got bored. He just did not want to test. And, and I remember going, I think it was to Indy to test with him. And I, you probably remember I had a little index card in my pocket. Oh yeah. And it was the list of stuff.

A (33:58)

I wanted to test.

D (34:00)

And he grabbed that thing out of my pocket and got that pen, said, we've already tested that. That didn't work. I'm not going to test that. We don't really have a lot to test now do we? You wonder why I'm part of the damn reason.

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A (35:50)

You win the Daytona 500 in 1998 with Dale Senior. You make it to the checkered flag, you come through the tri oval and you know we all have watched this replay over and over. All the whole industry is on pit road high fiving that Black number three. During that moment, Larry, when pit road was just organized chaos, what do you remember about that car coming down pit road? Did you stay in the pit area?

D (36:25)

Where were you? See, I knew nothing about that. As Mike Joy coined at that receiving line. I had no idea that even happened. There was chaos in our pits. You know, that was back when we used to race back to the caution. Oh. And we had taken the two to go, and John Andretti and somebody got together on the back straightaway, and that brought the caution out. And so Danny Color, our spotter, was owning. You know, you got to bring it back. You got to bring it back. We're racing back to the caution. And I remember, obviously, when we took the white flag. We took the white flag and the caution. Wow. But I still. Everything that had happened to that 3 car, I just wanted to make sure we didn't let nothing fall through the cracks. And the track was clear. John and whoever had gotten together with that might have been John and Lake speed. But anyhow, I knew we still had to make that final lap. Even though it was under caution, we still had to complete lap 200. And I remember everybody was. You couldn't hear nothing on the radio. Everybody was trying to talk at one time. And finally I said, dale, make sure you make this lap at a good speed. And Kenny, I think he ran that lap about as fast as you run any lap in the race, making sure. Sure he had made it back. And I felt the biggest relief. I felt like the weight of the world was off my shoulders because, again, a winless 1997. And something else. We had changed engines race morning because we had a problem in final practice with a push rod and a rocker arm. So we changed engines race morning. So I was pretty uptight when that race started, but like I say, I felt like the weight of the world was off my shoulders.

A (38:18)

That is so badass. It's unbelievable. So here we are almost 40 minutes into this, and we haven't even got to the conversation yet. So let's. Let's do it now, Larry. Let's go in the next phase of your life, specifically when. Where. What. Do you remember when NASCAR on Fox tv. We're going into this other part of your life. You're. You're this legendary crew chief. You've won the Daytona 502 times. And all of a sudden, NASCAR and Fox, this new TV channel. At this time, Fox is hardly known. You know, we got cbs, abc, NBC. And fox is coming out of nowhere. Rupert Murdoch going to start a TV station what were, who called you? Tell me. This whole process from being a crew chief to tv.

D (39:16)

Well, I don't know if you remember or not, but from 1995 through 2000, that, that six or seven year period, I did some part time TV work. I did some pit reporting, did some booth work. It was either you know, during maybe an off weekend, which we had a lot more off weekends back then because the schedule wasn't as long. I maybe would even do some pit road stuff for Xfinity or trucks on a Saturday as long as we were in good shape with our race car. I did some work for, for what was TNN for tbs. Even did a couple of Xfinity series races at Homestead for cbs. But I never saw myself doing it. I figured Kenny, when they put me six foot under, the last words I'd say is four tires, next stop to the day I died. But I enjoyed it. It was something different. You made a little bit of money, you wouldn't gonna get rich or retire off of it. But I enjoyed it. So if you Remember, this big TV package with Fox doing the first half, NBC doing the second half was actually announced before the 1999 season ended. I remember learning about it before we headed down to Homestead for the race. So it was done well over a year out. So that's cool, this is good for the sport. But didn't think a lot about it. But I remember it like yesterday, Kenny. I was in the body shop in the 31 shop of Richard Childress Racing. We were working on our Daytona car. I was in there with a fabricator and a body man covered from Bondo dust from head to toe.

A (41:00)

Mike Skinner, your driver.

D (41:02)

And they paid me to the phone and there was a phone on the outside wall of the body shop. And I remember walking out there and answering it and there was an Australian speaking gentleman by the name of David Hill, chairman of course he introduced himself and said, I guess you, you realize that we've got the TV rights for the first six years to do nascar and we just kind of wanted to plant the seed to see if you would have a conversation with us a bit about becoming our crew chief analyst. We've hired Darrell Waltrip already as our driver analyst. We've watched some tapes of some stuff you've done and we like what we see and we'd like to have a conversation. Kenny. I didn't even know what to say. I was speechless. And I think he kind of realized that. He said, I'm not looking for an answer. He said, let's get through the holidays. Let's get the new season started and we'll reach back out to you. Just wanted to see if you'd at least have a conversation. Well, I finally said, yeah, I definitely would like to have a conversation. So the new season came, they reached back out to me. Something a lot of people probably don't know. The Xfinity series race at Charlotte in May of 2000. They got Darrell Waltrip and myself and Rick Allen. Not like they hadn't hired Mike Joy yet. They got the three of us together and we went in a, in a kind of a curtained off area of the Speedway Club and we did a mock broadcast of about 50 laps of the Xfinity series race. Call it an audition, call it whatever you want to call it. And so a little bit later on in the year, we're getting to about July, they reached back out to me and said, larry, we, we like what we saw with you and Darrell. Are you interested? And it was, it was a long process, Kenny. It was the toughest decision I've ever had to make in my life. The good thing is they were not offering me any more money, which that was good. I could slide that factor aside and make the decision based on what's really best for me and really best for my family. And I have no idea how many hours Linda McReynolds and I sat at our kitchen table and hash this over. But finally, August of, of 2000, I made the decision that I was going to do it. And there were a few reasons I decided to do it. Kenny, like I say, one, they weren't off me any more money. Actually, I was going to give up a little money because there were not going to be any more bonuses for winning races or top 10 in points or any of that stuff. I wasn't going to get that manufactured car to drive anymore. But they were only offering me a two year deal. I said, you know what, if I do it for two years, they don't like me or I don't like them. I can always go back to being a crew chief. But probably the other reason, there was only going to be a small amount of people that was going to be offered this opportunity. And I felt like if I didn't take it, I would always look back over my shoulder and go, what if the good thing is 20 something years ago, 23, 24 years ago, made the decision. I've never looked back over my shoulder.

A (44:23)

Oh my God, Larry, I'm getting nauseous right now. Ed Gorn had called Me and I turned him down and you didn't. I just feel like I had to ask you that question because I'm the same as you. My heart was pounding. And what you have done will go down in history. And here's this is my thought and I'm going to say this and then you can respond to. It's not, not a question.

D (44:55)

Sure.

A (44:55)

But Mike Joy and you are most likely the longest running sports commentators, you know, duo. I don't know if it's true or not, but I feel like in sports history there's probably somebody out there that knows you are still with Fox. Mike Joy is still with Fox. Man oh man, that is complete success beyond phenomenal belief. What is your thought when I say that to you?

D (45:28)

Well, I have to pinch myself to some degree, Kenny, because it's over a third of my life that I've been with NASCAR on fox. You know, I thought I was a crew chief for a long time.

A (45:40)

I was a race car driver.

D (45:41)

Yeah. For 18 years in here. Next year being with Fox six years longer than I was what was a crew chief. And you know, probably the biggest thing, Kenny, Mike Joy and Darrell walchip and Larry McReynolds. 15 years. 15 years shoulder to shoulder. I think I'd be safe in saying there has probably never been a three man booth in any sport that has made it for 15 years. There's some two men sport. I watched a football game last night. Joe Buck and Troy Aikman, look how many years they they've been together. Yeah. But a three man booth, it's pretty much unprecedented. And you know the chemistry that the three of us had, Kenny, we could finish each other's sentences. But I think the biggest thing that made us work is we stayed in our lane. Mike Joy was the play by play guy. He was the traffic cop. Even today, Mike. Mike Joy never tries to be an analyst. And I think that's one of a number of things that makes him so good. And Darrell was the driver analyst. Darrell didn't tell you about making the decision to change two tires or four tires. He told you what it was like to drive off in the Corner Daytona at 190 miles an hour. I was the crew chief analyst. I broke down pit road and decisions a crew chief was making and rules. Nobody wanted to hear me talk about driving off in the corner to 190 miles an hour. I never did it. Why would I want to try to tell you what that was like? But I think we did a really nice job for 15 years. Of staying in our lane of what we were an expert at.

A (47:26)

I, I want to know what you think of this too. I was at Fox for 15 years and I was always amazed that the same people that were producing, say The Dallas Cowboys versus the Philadelphia Eagles, our direct, your, your director, R.D. kempner, the. These same people were, were your bosses. Did you ever have a pinch me moment that the people that were producing, say, the, the super bowl, you, you were working for them. Did that ever cross your mind?

D (48:03)

Yeah, I mean, you and you, you talked about Mike and I, you know, being with this production for going on 24 years. I think the number one name that comes to mind is Artie Kempner. You know, our director, the one that's giving you all the camera shots. He's been with us since that 2001 Daytona 500 and he's still doing NFL on Fox today. Richie Zions, who was always like one of our coordinating producers, executive producers I'd like to call it at, at nascar. He just, he's the guy that just produced the super bowl back February of this year. I Love it. Chuck McDonald, our producer today, he produces college football on Fox today. So yeah, they, they do a lot of intertwining, but I think at the end of the day, sports is sport. You know, maybe when it comes to the analyst, I couldn't probably go do a college football game or NFL game like Troy Aikman probably couldn't come do a NASCAR race. But I think the production side, it's a lot of the same things that makes it work and makes it.

E (49:15)

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A (50:49)

Larry, you and I have spent a lot of time together at TV in our rehearsal rooms. There has been times, you know, where we both wonder, man, I wonder if they're going to have us back next year. I mean, congratulations on that because the, the moral to my point with you right now is that, buddy, you deserve a trophy. You've been there longer than anybody, and I want to give you a compliment. I believe the reason that you've been so successful at TV is they look up to you, they need you. You, you tell them what's going on. I feel like if they ever lost you, they wouldn't know what the hell to do. Because behind the scenes, how much there's nothing wrong with saying this I don't believe, because I've witnessed it. And that's why I'm asking you, because I already know the answer. How many times every broadcast have you helped them with pit road speed or getting up to speed in their analogy? You give them a lot of notes to help with the show. That's been a lot of your success with them, I think. What do you say?

D (52:06)

Well, as I've always said, you know, here over the next couple of weeks, I'll probably sit down. I've already started them. I started them really, before the season ended. And just starting thoughts and ideas for 2024. Call it notes, call it whatever you want. And probably before Christmas holidays, I'll send that out to everybody, to producers, directors, people that produce Hub, all the, all the, the, the analysts, Mike, Joy. Because honestly, Kenny, the only ego I've got is let's just have a good broadcast. I don't care. I don't care if it's me that says it. You know, I'm not gonna hide in the corner with all my notes hidden underneath my arms. I, I just want to make sure we get it out There and you. You know, it's a passion. I love what I do. You do. I love what I do for Fox. I love what I do for FS1 in the studio. I love what I do for SiriusXM NASCAR radio. People say you. You work so hard, but you know what? I love it. I love. Absolutely. I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it. Life's too short in my. My only thing, Kenny, is next year will be year 24. Wow. I have no idea what I'm doing beyond that. You know, everybody's contract is. Is essentially in sync with the new TV package. A big deal it is in. You know, I get a feeling that Fox will be coming back and. And I hope I'm a still part of it. Why would I not want to be? I'm not looking for greener pastures with another network. I just. I'm hope the. The ship's still going to be sailing, and I hope I'm still on the ship. That's my biggest thing, Kenny. And even after doing it 23 years, the toughest thing to me about being a broadcaster, and you'll relate, because you're a racer and you've been a broadcaster as a racer, you didn't need anybody to tell you that was good or that was bad. You had a stopwatch, you had practice results, qualifying results, race results, and at the end of the year, each year, points results. I didn't care if anybody liked how I did it or not, as long as those results were good, because that's what that was, the measuring stick. But even after doing broadcasting for 23, going on 24 years, you don't have a measuring stick. You really don't have a measuring stick. And my only hope is that I do hope I get to go out on my own terms and not the terms of a decision made by an executive. If I decide at the end of 24, that's all I want to do, then that's my terms. If I. At the end of 20, 28, I go, I don't want to do anymore. That's my terms. I just hope it doesn't come on the heels of an executive saying, we're gonna go a different direction. Yeah.

A (55:19)

Well, I'm gonna say this, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. The hall of Fame has, you know, the media side, and obviously you. You've done enough as a crew chief, but it would be a travesty if you don't go in on the media side because you are another Ken Squire. Not verbiage, but in the tv you, you, you ushered in that, that big TV deal and you've been there the longest. And man, congratulations on the TV stuff. I wanted really talk to you about that because I can really relate. And as we come down to the end here, Larry, it looks like you're having a lot of fun with Sirius XM radio. You and Danielle Trotta, she loves you. You guys are a good team. We hear you. Is the radio as much fun as the tv?

D (56:19)

It is for completely different reasons. Yeah. You know, again, you've done radio, you've done television. So you can relate to everything I'm putting out there. Tv you have to be so concise. Yeah, you got a. That's saying 30 seconds rapid. Yeah, we can expand. We. There's no script. You know, the only thing we're locked into is. Has grown from 11 to one eastern Monday through Friday. We have a hard break at 12 noon so we have to be rapping by then and we have to wrap before the end of the show. Outside of that, it's, it's very fluid and you can expand on things. But the biggest thing I like about doing it, Kenny, is even during the FOX part, especially now that I'm not at the track, which is a huge challenge, the radio show keeps me engaged. I never interview anybody, whether it's a driver, a crew chief engineer, a competition director or owner that I don't learn something. And especially in the NBC part of the season where we're not doing the races, it keeps me engaged. And then especially this time of year, the off season, it even keeps me engaged more. So, yeah, I love doing it. I have fun. Danielle and I have been doing it for over five years and hopefully we'll be doing it for another five plus years. But it keeps me engaged. I could not imagine. But everybody's different. I could not imagine doing FOX from mid February to mid June and going, I'll see you next February. I'll be back.

A (58:02)

I couldn't imagine does. Does being on radio all the time. I guess like you said, it gives you so much more knowledge. Have you ever used an interview from radio as knowledge on tv? Maybe once or two times.

D (58:21)

Many times I've used stuff from TV on radio.

A (58:26)

Yeah, no question.

D (58:28)

And you know, I try to find the balance. You know, I will even say I talked to Kyle Larson on our serious radio show last week and he told me now I got to be careful. I can't just Wear that out.

A (58:41)

Right.

D (58:42)

But I always try to give credit where credit's due. But absolutely, Kenny, it would be probably hundreds of times over the last five years that I've used something from an interview on Sirius the week before to something on a race broadcast or pre race show on the weekend on Fox or FS1.

A (59:03)

You're like Dale Earnhardt Jr. For me. You're so easy for me to talk to. We're already at an hour. So we. Everybody says, kenny, quit. Quit saying you need to hurry up, but.

D (59:13)

Well, you don't need to hurry up for my sake. But I want to stay within your limits.

A (59:16)

Yeah. Right. So here we go. It's not rapid fire, but it's basically something that I. I need for you to answer. Okay. So I watched you win. We all. We all know early. You know, 15 years ago, you tried getting your son, Brandon Reynolds, you know, into the sport as a race car driver. I've watched you win with him. I know he's a great man. I know he's a great spotter nowadays. But just give me a comment on going. I watched you go to Victor Lane with your son. What was that like, watching him and.

D (59:58)

Being there in his win in 2012 at Talladega? Yeah, it goes pretty darn close to those two Daytona 500 wins that I got to win, because remember, I won there in 92 as a crew chief. He was 1 years old in victory lane, wrapped up in a baby blanket. Twenty years later, he drives an ARCA car into victory lane. I'm telling you, that was the ultimate. As a dad that has a son that races.

A (60:25)

Yeah. That is awesome. Okay, let's. Let's. This is. Now I'm gonna put you right in a category with race car drivers, and I've decided to ask you the same thing that I asked the drivers. It's three things. So your opinion, and I know you won't get yourself in trouble. And I tell all the drivers, don't get yourself in trouble. What is your opinion on NASCAR today?

D (60:51)

I'm very happy with where we're at. If you and I had been doing this show 10 years ago, I'd have went, kenny, we're in trouble. I don't know where we're at, but I think the leadership, the direction, there's always things. It's like I said earlier about my crew chief career and broadcast career, the constant pursuit of performance, perfection, being better the next time. But I tell you, as far as our leadership right now, with Steve Phelps and Ben Kennedy and Steve o' Donnell in the competition group. And this car, I really like where we're headed. They're thinking outside the box. It's not just rinse and repeat. You know, the guys in the shop used to go, want to win a new schedule going to come out. I said, well, just go get the one off the wall from last year and just run it through the coffee. They might move a few tracks around, but to see what we're doing, it's, it's, it's pretty amazing. And I, it's not the corporate line. I. This is water, not NASCAR Kool Aid. Yeah, I love where we're at right now. I really think we're in a good place.

A (62:04)

I think a lot of people like that after watching even Formula one out there in Vegas. So the next thing, your opinion on this new next gen car?

D (62:15)

Still some work to do, but you know what I've always said, Kenny, it's not a problem as long as people acknowledge we've got work to do. And NASCAR acknowledges at the short tracks, at the road courses, we've got work to do. But it's the reason they're taking six teams to Phoenix here in a couple weeks and going to spend two days and it's, it's an open four. Yeah, they've got an agenda, but they, they're not afraid to adjust that agenda to make the racing better at the short tracks in the road courses. It's not terrible, but we know it could be better. But to me, what it's done for the racing at the intermediates and of course the racing at the superspeedways, we could take covered wagons and it be good racing there. But I like the. But you know what? Without this car, without this car, could 2311 and track house racing in college racing, could they have come in here and in three years be winning races? No. You know it and I know it. Could Michael McDowell go win a race? Probably not. Could Ricky Stenhouse Jr. Win the Daytona 5? Probably not. The fact, I think the numbers speak for themselves. When you look at all the different number of winners and the people that's winning these races now, that probably wouldn't have happened before this next gen car.

A (63:41)

It really is amazing how when something starts that is so new, so many people complain, just devastating blow. And then years later we say to ourselves, man, what a great move. And you're, you're right about that. So very last thing we saw, record penalties. You know, maybe not the one car, but $400,000 to Rick Hendrick. What is your opinion on the way NASCAR now is governing fines and penalties.

D (64:16)

Thank the good Lord I'm a broadcaster now, not a crew chief. I'd be out of a trash can, and I'd probably never be. Be at the racetrack. I'd be suspended indefinitely, forever. Yeah, I think it's a necessity, Ken. Kenny, you know, the owners told nascar, if you're going to put us through the workload and the cost of completely building a brand new car obsoleted everything they had. I mean, everything maybe, but the racing seat. Save us from ourselves. Don't let us tinker. Let us put these cars together. We still got a big toolbox to work with. There's adjustments of plenty on this car. It's maybe not as big as the. The toolbox was on the old car, but there's still plenty of adjustments. But save us from ourselves, because, you know, Kenny and I know if they ever crack that door and let them start tinkering with something, the cows get out of the barn, and then the next thing you know, they're completely out of the pasture and it's. It's Carter block. And the spending of money to develop stuff is just going to be off the chart. So I think the only way they can do it is they have to rule with an iron fist, and they have to make these penalties substantial enough that that crew chief, that engineer, or even that owner says, don't be going down that road. Do not be doing it. I. I just. I hate to see it for these guys that get suspended in these fines, these penalties, but I think it's an absolute necessity if they want to keep the cows in the barn on this next gen car.

A (65:54)

Yeah. Well, Larry McReynolds, look at you, buddy. I guess I stole that one from Howard Stern. I listened to him and I. I say look at you. I think because we're of age now and you truly have done it all. Some people say, Kenny Walsh, you always say you've done it all, but I know there's a lot to do, but you have. Have done it all. You. You've won races. You're at the. At the top echelon of. Of TV and radio. So, Larry, congratulations. And I. I want to remind everybody that we are in podcast form, and, buddy, we're showing up there now, and myself and Charlie are really excited about that. So remember, everybody, you can listen to Larry Mack on your way to work on Spotify or itunes. And we know this is long, so on your way back home, finish listening to Larry McReynolds. And, Larry, thank you for being on Kenny conversation.

D (66:48)

Well, just two quick things. Kenny, again, as I said at the very beginning, very flattered, very honored when you reached out to me to be a part of it because, yeah, you and I were able to work together. It was under some not great situation because Ernie Irvin was injured back in 1994, but always enjoyed those. Those you. You were perfect for who we needed to kind of give us a pick me up a little bit. And we went and had some pretty good runs, too. Good old top five after spinning Dale Earnhardt out at Martinsville.

A (67:21)

Oh, my God.

D (67:22)

Yeah.

A (67:22)

10 at the Southern 5. Don't make me go on. But, Larry, you did me a solid mar. Martinsville was awesome. You made a dream come true in mind that Texas, Havel and Ford. I will never forget my time in your car.

D (67:34)

Well, more than anything, even though we only got to work together for that short period of time on a race car, we got to work together for a longer period of time. Our friendship will be forever. I'm proud to call you a friend. And then the biggest thing is if there's anybody out there that does not think dreams can come true, and people try to tell you that's not possible, you can't do that. I am walking, living, breathing proof, because, Kenny, I'm a guy from Birmingham that I barely got a high school diploma. In fact, I had to pay a few teachers, and I think they said, get out of here. You're gone. You're out of here. But I am walking, living proof that if you want it bad enough, you believe in it and you stay after it. Absolutely. Dreams can come true.

A (68:22)

And I agree. All right, everybody, until the next Kenny conversation, we just keep on rolling. See y' all next time.

D (68:37)

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