Herm & Schrader Podcast

Episode: Mark Martin: Unfiltered Opinions on NASCAR

Date: November 12, 2025
Hosts: Kenny Wallace & Ken Schrader (main voice: Wallace)
Guests: Mark Martin & Matt Martin
Producer: SiriusXM, Dirty Mo Media

Overview

This animated, irreverent episode features NASCAR Hall of Famer Mark Martin and his son Matt in an unguarded discussion with Kenny Wallace about the current state of NASCAR, its points and playoff system, the evolving fan base, lost traditions, car identity, and the importance of personality in the sport. The conversation, full of nostalgia, unapologetic opinions, and sharp humor, is fueled by decades of shared history and genuine affection for racing.

Main Topics & Key Insights

1. The Longstanding Bond: Mark Martin & Kenny Wallace

[00:45–03:42]

• Kenny marvels at Mark and Matt's close father-son dynamic, often traveling together with Arlene.
• Kenny on their friendship: "You're a Hall of Famer...little old me...why have we been friends our whole life?" (03:02)
• Mark: “You have a heart of gold. And I've known you since you were 10 or 11 years old. You've been a part of my life, important part of my life...Kenny has been a part of my life since 1977.” (03:02)

2. Disagreeing on the Playoff System—With Civility

[03:42–06:22]

• They touch on their differing views of the NASCAR playoff system.
• Mark: “Some of you people need to take notes here. You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.” (03:55)
• Mark stresses he voiced his critical opinion about the points/playoff system not for himself, but as a proxy for frustrated fans. (04:55)

3. Why the Outcry Now? Decline of Legitimate Championships

[06:22–08:22]

• Mark’s tipping point came after the 2024 and 2025 seasons, where under the playoff system, winners didn’t necessarily represent season-long excellence.
• Mark: “Joey Logano won the championship with about a 17 place average finish...he wasn't the greatest team for the entire season. Tradition matters. And it's starting to rear its head in NASCAR that people are saying I take tradition and legitimacy over entertainment.” (06:22)

4. What If...Full-Season Points System?

[07:14–08:22]

• Matt the stat man: “Christopher Bell would have been the champion this year. And I think he would have been the champion last year as well.” (07:36)
• Mark clarifies he isn’t pushing a specific points system but wants the debate to start with full-season legitimacy.

5. Winner-Take-All Dilemmas & Heartbreak

[08:22–13:14]

• Painful examples: Carl Edwards and Denny Hamlin, each seemingly robbed of championships due to the playoff system and late-race circumstances (“green-white-checkered”).
• Mark: “Denny and his team did...whooped everybody's ass...Then because in the name of entertainment...something happens and it slips through their fingers and it tears everybody's heart up.” (09:29)
• Matt: “Even I felt so bad for him because...he totally earned that. I think it's just a flaw in the whole system...you can lose to somebody that they didn’t dominate at all.” (11:31)
• Mark: “Winner take all is a great concept, but there are unintended consequences...when you've put traditional entire season and it comes down to overtime, green-white-checkered...the whole race meant nothing.” (12:03)

6. Manufactured Drama vs. Organic Racing

[13:14–15:40]

• Landon Cassill’s joke: “Next year, we’re going straight to Miami, Homestead, we're have a green light checker. Is that what we did?” (13:00)
• Mark: “WWE is very entertaining and it's fun...but if you want to watch a fight, you watch UFC.” (13:41)
• Matt: “It's manufactured drama. It's not organic.” (15:40)

7. Fan Frustration: Passion or Viciousness?

[17:32–19:13]

• Kenny and Mark reflect on hostile online comments and the toxic fan culture.
• Mark (on Kenny): “You provoke...but not when you said that was a drag race today...People need to learn to be able to disagree and still be civil about it.” (18:08)
• They stress: Heartfelt disagreement doesn’t have to become personal attacks.

8. NASCAR’s Response & the Value of Respect

[20:00–22:19]

• Mark describes the respect from fans, drivers, even NASCAR itself, as “my crown jewel...my championship.” (20:00)
• Kenny calls Mark the most respected driver in NASCAR.

9. What Would Fix NASCAR? Mark’s Prescription

[22:19–24:51]

• Mark supports a return to a 36-race full-season championship, or at least a 10-race championship chase. “Nothing less.” (22:19)
• Criticizes playoff “elimination” rounds (3-3-4 format): “That's not...you gotta get back to some of the legitimacy and tradition of auto racing. We are not ball sports.” (23:11)

10. Lost Identity: Cars, Roots, & Heritage

[24:51–27:54]

• Matt: “Look at the Porsche 911...it still looks like the same car...You look at the NASCAR cars today, they don't look anything like they used to.”
• They bemoan the aesthetics: “I can't stand the way [the number placement] looks… the aesthetics is more important than people think...It would draw. There’s a certain draw to the aesthetics of a race car. It needs to excite people.” (26:52–27:54)

11. Unintended Consequences: Well-Meant Changes Gone Wrong

[27:54–29:41]

• Mark points to well-intended reforms (aero packages, “win and you’re in,” etc.) that backfired: “Everything you do has consequences...when you ask why the fans are so angry. Well, most of those fans...have been marginalized.”

12. The Marginalization of Core Fans

[29:41–32:19]

• They highlight Steve O’Donnell’s admission: “We erred and gave up the core fans for the new fans.”
• Mark: “Those new fans didn’t come in large enough numbers to really offset the loss of the other. And they're not the...die-hard fan watches all of that.” (29:50)

13. Chasing Ratings & the Essence of Racing

[32:19–34:28]

• Mark doubts the “chase for new fans” is working—TV ratings and grandstand attendance have continued to fall.
• Mark: “Go to a full-season schedule...it may not be as exciting...but it will certainly bring legitimacy.” (32:19)
• On covering winners: “Bubba Wallace won the Brickyard 400...should have been the baddest mofo in town for a while...it was just gone.” (34:01)

14. Where Should the Finale Be? Phoenix or Homestead?

[35:18–37:25]

• They debate moving the championship race (Phoenix vs. Homestead), but agree it matters less under a full-season system.
• Mark: “They are smart at NASCAR...I don’t envy NASCAR at all. I don’t want to be the ones making [the call].”

15. The Data Is In: Fans Want “Real” Championships

[37:31–39:13]

• Polls by Mark, Jeff Gluck, Motorsport.com: “Within 1 or 2% on each one.” (38:07)
• Industry initially ignored fan sentiment, but shifting: “Finally people are starting to see that...it’s killed the legitimacy.”

16. The Human Side: Sympathy for Hamlin, the Cost of Collapse

[39:13–41:56]

• After Denny Hamlin’s brutal loss, the whole industry showed empathy—signaling a shift.
• Mark: “No race fan knows how hard it was for [Hamlin] to do what he did. And it really pulls at people's heartstrings about his father...” (40:25)

17. The Need for Personalities

[43:41–45:31]

• Mark and Kenny bemoan how today's drivers aren’t as well known or “allowed” to be as colorful.
• Mark: “I believe they're there now. I just don't believe they're comfortable showing it...We need to bring the human element more back into it.”

18. Why Are Drivers in Shells? Overly Cautious Sports Climate

[47:52–49:16]

• Example: Noah Gragson cracks a joke about his “blower”; media recoils.
• Mark: “Yes, absolutely [they’re afraid]. Just look at the things that have happened to some of the drivers...You’ve got to watch what you like on social media.”
• Dale Jr.’s infamous “That ain’t…” quote and the overreaction highlighted the environment.

19. Keeping the Edge: Controversy, Rivalries, and Fights

[50:13–54:28]

• Mark argues for passion: “We need the controversy. We need the sparks flying. We need people mad...I'm not opposed to seeing a little contact afterwards. Not on the racetrack. I'm talking about on pit road. Handle your business.” (53:09, 53:39)

20. Media and Branding: Why Doesn’t William Byron Resonate?

[54:28–57:17]

• Despite huge wins, William Byron has less fan engagement than some grassroots racers.
• Matt: "I don't think the media does a good enough job highlighting these guys, their personalities." (55:24)
• Mark: "I don't think there's a lack of personality in the sport now. I think there's a lack of coverage of it." (55:58)
• Matt: "Your personality...becomes part of your brand." (56:34)

21. Cup Drivers in Lower Series—Reversal of Course

[57:22–61:03]

• NASCAR is letting Cup drivers run 10 Xfinity races again.
• Mark: “I think it’s good to have Cup drivers in there, not only...to measure themselves, but for adding some star power...” (58:49)
• On standalone events (Rockingham, Bowman Gray): “We need to have events that are not the marquee events that are big deal because it’s good for racers and race fans.” (61:03)

22. Grappling with Nostalgia: “The Good Old Days”

[61:27–62:44]

• Mark relays, via Matthew Reaver, that much longing for the past is longing for old feelings, not just old formats.
• Mark: “There’s nothing you could do to feel like you felt 30 years ago...Trying to keep in touch with your roots or your heritage is okay, but you can't ever go back.” (61:27)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Mark Martin on disagreement:

  “You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.” (03:55)

• On Denny Hamlin’s heartbreak:

  "Denny and his team...whooped everybody’s ass...any time he wanted, he could pull out to a three second lead. He did it all. And then...something happens and it slips through their fingers and it tears everybody’s heart up.” (09:29)

• On legitimacy:

  “Tradition matters. It truly matters. And it's starting to rear its head in NASCAR that people are saying I take tradition and legitimacy over entertainment.” (06:22)

• On the playoff system:

  “It's not really a flaw in the system. It's just that, doggone it, you really wanted the guy that earned it, the guy that dominated the race.” (09:29)

• On fan anger:

  “Those fans that are angry are ones that have been marginalized...to attract new fans. And those new fans didn’t come in large enough numbers to really offset the loss.” (29:41)

• On NASCAR’s identity:

  Matt Martin: “Look at the Porsche 911...it still looks like the same car...You look at NASCAR today, they don’t look anything like they used to.” (24:51) Mark: “I can’t stand the way it looks. I mean, they could move [the number] back a foot, and it would look so much better...” (26:52)

• On bringing personalities back:

  “I believe they're there now. I just don't believe they're comfortable showing it...We need to bring the human element more back into it.” (44:31)

Important Timestamps

• 00:45 — Show start and Martin family intro
• 03:02 — Mark on friendship roots with Kenny
• 03:55 — “You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.”
• 06:22 — Playoff format and legitimacy crisis
• 07:36 — Matt: Christopher Bell would be champ under old system
• 09:03–11:31 — Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, and winner-take-all heartbreak
• 12:03–12:42 — Unintended consequences of winner-take-all
• 13:41 — WWE vs. UFC: real vs. manufactured drama
• 17:32–19:13 — Fan toxicity and Mark’s plea for civility
• 20:00 — Respect as Mark’s “crown jewel”
• 22:19–24:51 — Mark: “I am all in with 36 [races full season]”
• 24:51 — Matt’s “Porsche 911” analogy for lost NASCAR identity
• 26:52 — Mark’s car aesthetics rant
• 29:41 — Marginalized fans, O’Donnell’s quote
• 32:19 — TV ratings & legitimacy
• 34:01 — Example: Bubba Wallace’s minimized Brickyard win
• 37:31–39:13 — Fans’ poll results and industry denial
• 41:23–42:33 — William Byron apologizing to Denny Hamlin
• 43:41–45:31 — Media, drivers, and hiding personalities
• 47:52–49:16 — Why drivers hide personalities (Noah Gragson stories)
• 53:09–54:28 — “Handle your business”—Mark on post-race fights
• 55:24–57:17 — Why William Byron doesn’t resonate
• 58:49–61:12 — Cup drivers in Xfinity, “standalone” events
• 61:27–62:44 — “Going back to the good old days”
• 63:22 — Heritage, identity, and adapting to the times

Takeaways

• The episode is a sweeping, deeply personal look at NASCAR’s past and present, with sharp critiques of the playoff format, laments about lost traditions and marginalized core fans, and a strong call to return to authenticity, tradition, and the vivid personalities that made NASCAR great.
• Respect, both between competitors and with the fan base, is a recurring theme. The group mourns the damage done chasing a casual audience at the expense of those who built the sport.
• The chemistry among Kenny, Mark, and Matt brings humanity and humor to uncomfortable truths—reminding us that it’s the people, their history, and their passion that truly matter in racing.

Closing thought from Mark Martin:

“You have a heart of gold, my friend.” (64:28)

And from Matt Martin:

“Everybody just calm down. All right?” (64:40)