Mark Martin: Unfiltered Opinions on NASCAR

Summary

Herm & Schrader Podcast

Episode: Mark Martin: Unfiltered Opinions on NASCAR

Date: November 12, 2025
Hosts: Kenny Wallace & Ken Schrader (main voice: Wallace)
Guests: Mark Martin & Matt Martin
Producer: SiriusXM, Dirty Mo Media

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Overview

This animated, irreverent episode features NASCAR Hall of Famer Mark Martin and his son Matt in an unguarded discussion with Kenny Wallace about the current state of NASCAR, its points and playoff system, the evolving fan base, lost traditions, car identity, and the importance of personality in the sport. The conversation, full of nostalgia, unapologetic opinions, and sharp humor, is fueled by decades of shared history and genuine affection for racing.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. The Longstanding Bond: Mark Martin & Kenny Wallace

[00:45–03:42]

• Kenny marvels at Mark and Matt's close father-son dynamic, often traveling together with Arlene.
• Kenny on their friendship: "You're a Hall of Famer...little old me...why have we been friends our whole life?" (03:02)
• Mark: “You have a heart of gold. And I've known you since you were 10 or 11 years old. You've been a part of my life, important part of my life...Kenny has been a part of my life since 1977.” (03:02)

2. Disagreeing on the Playoff System—With Civility

[03:42–06:22]

• They touch on their differing views of the NASCAR playoff system.
• Mark: “Some of you people need to take notes here. You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.” (03:55)
• Mark stresses he voiced his critical opinion about the points/playoff system not for himself, but as a proxy for frustrated fans. (04:55)

3. Why the Outcry Now? Decline of Legitimate Championships

[06:22–08:22]

• Mark’s tipping point came after the 2024 and 2025 seasons, where under the playoff system, winners didn’t necessarily represent season-long excellence.
• Mark: “Joey Logano won the championship with about a 17 place average finish...he wasn't the greatest team for the entire season. Tradition matters. And it's starting to rear its head in NASCAR that people are saying I take tradition and legitimacy over entertainment.” (06:22)

4. What If...Full-Season Points System?

[07:14–08:22]

• Matt the stat man: “Christopher Bell would have been the champion this year. And I think he would have been the champion last year as well.” (07:36)
• Mark clarifies he isn’t pushing a specific points system but wants the debate to start with full-season legitimacy.

5. Winner-Take-All Dilemmas & Heartbreak

[08:22–13:14]

• Painful examples: Carl Edwards and Denny Hamlin, each seemingly robbed of championships due to the playoff system and late-race circumstances (“green-white-checkered”).
• Mark: “Denny and his team did...whooped everybody's ass...Then because in the name of entertainment...something happens and it slips through their fingers and it tears everybody's heart up.” (09:29)
• Matt: “Even I felt so bad for him because...he totally earned that. I think it's just a flaw in the whole system...you can lose to somebody that they didn’t dominate at all.” (11:31)
• Mark: “Winner take all is a great concept, but there are unintended consequences...when you've put traditional entire season and it comes down to overtime, green-white-checkered...the whole race meant nothing.” (12:03)

6. Manufactured Drama vs. Organic Racing

[13:14–15:40]

• Landon Cassill’s joke: “Next year, we’re going straight to Miami, Homestead, we're have a green light checker. Is that what we did?” (13:00)
• Mark: “WWE is very entertaining and it's fun...but if you want to watch a fight, you watch UFC.” (13:41)
• Matt: “It's manufactured drama. It's not organic.” (15:40)

7. Fan Frustration: Passion or Viciousness?

[17:32–19:13]

• Kenny and Mark reflect on hostile online comments and the toxic fan culture.
• Mark (on Kenny): “You provoke...but not when you said that was a drag race today...People need to learn to be able to disagree and still be civil about it.” (18:08)
• They stress: Heartfelt disagreement doesn’t have to become personal attacks.

8. NASCAR’s Response & the Value of Respect

[20:00–22:19]

• Mark describes the respect from fans, drivers, even NASCAR itself, as “my crown jewel...my championship.” (20:00)
• Kenny calls Mark the most respected driver in NASCAR.

9. What Would Fix NASCAR? Mark’s Prescription

[22:19–24:51]

• Mark supports a return to a 36-race full-season championship, or at least a 10-race championship chase. “Nothing less.” (22:19)
• Criticizes playoff “elimination” rounds (3-3-4 format): “That's not...you gotta get back to some of the legitimacy and tradition of auto racing. We are not ball sports.” (23:11)

10. Lost Identity: Cars, Roots, & Heritage

[24:51–27:54]

• Matt: “Look at the Porsche 911...it still looks like the same car...You look at the NASCAR cars today, they don't look anything like they used to.”
• They bemoan the aesthetics: “I can't stand the way [the number placement] looks… the aesthetics is more important than people think...It would draw. There’s a certain draw to the aesthetics of a race car. It needs to excite people.” (26:52–27:54)

11. Unintended Consequences: Well-Meant Changes Gone Wrong

[27:54–29:41]

• Mark points to well-intended reforms (aero packages, “win and you’re in,” etc.) that backfired: “Everything you do has consequences...when you ask why the fans are so angry. Well, most of those fans...have been marginalized.”

12. The Marginalization of Core Fans

[29:41–32:19]

• They highlight Steve O’Donnell’s admission: “We erred and gave up the core fans for the new fans.”
• Mark: “Those new fans didn’t come in large enough numbers to really offset the loss of the other. And they're not the...die-hard fan watches all of that.” (29:50)

13. Chasing Ratings & the Essence of Racing

[32:19–34:28]

• Mark doubts the “chase for new fans” is working—TV ratings and grandstand attendance have continued to fall.
• Mark: “Go to a full-season schedule...it may not be as exciting...but it will certainly bring legitimacy.” (32:19)
• On covering winners: “Bubba Wallace won the Brickyard 400...should have been the baddest mofo in town for a while...it was just gone.” (34:01)

14. Where Should the Finale Be? Phoenix or Homestead?

[35:18–37:25]

• They debate moving the championship race (Phoenix vs. Homestead), but agree it matters less under a full-season system.
• Mark: “They are smart at NASCAR...I don’t envy NASCAR at all. I don’t want to be the ones making [the call].”

15. The Data Is In: Fans Want “Real” Championships

[37:31–39:13]

• Polls by Mark, Jeff Gluck, Motorsport.com: “Within 1 or 2% on each one.” (38:07)
• Industry initially ignored fan sentiment, but shifting: “Finally people are starting to see that...it’s killed the legitimacy.”

16. The Human Side: Sympathy for Hamlin, the Cost of Collapse

[39:13–41:56]

• After Denny Hamlin’s brutal loss, the whole industry showed empathy—signaling a shift.
• Mark: “No race fan knows how hard it was for [Hamlin] to do what he did. And it really pulls at people's heartstrings about his father...” (40:25)

17. The Need for Personalities

[43:41–45:31]

• Mark and Kenny bemoan how today's drivers aren’t as well known or “allowed” to be as colorful.
• Mark: “I believe they're there now. I just don't believe they're comfortable showing it...We need to bring the human element more back into it.”

18. Why Are Drivers in Shells? Overly Cautious Sports Climate

[47:52–49:16]

• Example: Noah Gragson cracks a joke about his “blower”; media recoils.
• Mark: “Yes, absolutely [they’re afraid]. Just look at the things that have happened to some of the drivers...You’ve got to watch what you like on social media.”
• Dale Jr.’s infamous “That ain’t…” quote and the overreaction highlighted the environment.

19. Keeping the Edge: Controversy, Rivalries, and Fights

[50:13–54:28]

• Mark argues for passion: “We need the controversy. We need the sparks flying. We need people mad...I'm not opposed to seeing a little contact afterwards. Not on the racetrack. I'm talking about on pit road. Handle your business.” (53:09, 53:39)

20. Media and Branding: Why Doesn’t William Byron Resonate?

[54:28–57:17]

• Despite huge wins, William Byron has less fan engagement than some grassroots racers.
• Matt: "I don't think the media does a good enough job highlighting these guys, their personalities." (55:24)
• Mark: "I don't think there's a lack of personality in the sport now. I think there's a lack of coverage of it." (55:58)
• Matt: "Your personality...becomes part of your brand." (56:34)

21. Cup Drivers in Lower Series—Reversal of Course

[57:22–61:03]

• NASCAR is letting Cup drivers run 10 Xfinity races again.
• Mark: “I think it’s good to have Cup drivers in there, not only...to measure themselves, but for adding some star power...” (58:49)
• On standalone events (Rockingham, Bowman Gray): “We need to have events that are not the marquee events that are big deal because it’s good for racers and race fans.” (61:03)

22. Grappling with Nostalgia: “The Good Old Days”

[61:27–62:44]

• Mark relays, via Matthew Reaver, that much longing for the past is longing for old feelings, not just old formats.
• Mark: “There’s nothing you could do to feel like you felt 30 years ago...Trying to keep in touch with your roots or your heritage is okay, but you can't ever go back.” (61:27)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Mark Martin on disagreement:

  “You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.” (03:55)

• On Denny Hamlin’s heartbreak:

  "Denny and his team...whooped everybody’s ass...any time he wanted, he could pull out to a three second lead. He did it all. And then...something happens and it slips through their fingers and it tears everybody’s heart up.” (09:29)

• On legitimacy:

  “Tradition matters. It truly matters. And it's starting to rear its head in NASCAR that people are saying I take tradition and legitimacy over entertainment.” (06:22)

• On the playoff system:

  “It's not really a flaw in the system. It's just that, doggone it, you really wanted the guy that earned it, the guy that dominated the race.” (09:29)

• On fan anger:

  “Those fans that are angry are ones that have been marginalized...to attract new fans. And those new fans didn’t come in large enough numbers to really offset the loss.” (29:41)

• On NASCAR’s identity:

  Matt Martin: “Look at the Porsche 911...it still looks like the same car...You look at NASCAR today, they don’t look anything like they used to.” (24:51) Mark: “I can’t stand the way it looks. I mean, they could move [the number] back a foot, and it would look so much better...” (26:52)

• On bringing personalities back:

  “I believe they're there now. I just don't believe they're comfortable showing it...We need to bring the human element more back into it.” (44:31)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:45 — Show start and Martin family intro
• 03:02 — Mark on friendship roots with Kenny
• 03:55 — “You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.”
• 06:22 — Playoff format and legitimacy crisis
• 07:36 — Matt: Christopher Bell would be champ under old system
• 09:03–11:31 — Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, and winner-take-all heartbreak
• 12:03–12:42 — Unintended consequences of winner-take-all
• 13:41 — WWE vs. UFC: real vs. manufactured drama
• 17:32–19:13 — Fan toxicity and Mark’s plea for civility
• 20:00 — Respect as Mark’s “crown jewel”
• 22:19–24:51 — Mark: “I am all in with 36 [races full season]”
• 24:51 — Matt’s “Porsche 911” analogy for lost NASCAR identity
• 26:52 — Mark’s car aesthetics rant
• 29:41 — Marginalized fans, O’Donnell’s quote
• 32:19 — TV ratings & legitimacy
• 34:01 — Example: Bubba Wallace’s minimized Brickyard win
• 37:31–39:13 — Fans’ poll results and industry denial
• 41:23–42:33 — William Byron apologizing to Denny Hamlin
• 43:41–45:31 — Media, drivers, and hiding personalities
• 47:52–49:16 — Why drivers hide personalities (Noah Gragson stories)
• 53:09–54:28 — “Handle your business”—Mark on post-race fights
• 55:24–57:17 — Why William Byron doesn’t resonate
• 58:49–61:12 — Cup drivers in Xfinity, “standalone” events
• 61:27–62:44 — “Going back to the good old days”
• 63:22 — Heritage, identity, and adapting to the times

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Takeaways

• The episode is a sweeping, deeply personal look at NASCAR’s past and present, with sharp critiques of the playoff format, laments about lost traditions and marginalized core fans, and a strong call to return to authenticity, tradition, and the vivid personalities that made NASCAR great.
• Respect, both between competitors and with the fan base, is a recurring theme. The group mourns the damage done chasing a casual audience at the expense of those who built the sport.
• The chemistry among Kenny, Mark, and Matt brings humanity and humor to uncomfortable truths—reminding us that it’s the people, their history, and their passion that truly matter in racing.

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Closing thought from Mark Martin:

“You have a heart of gold, my friend.” (64:28)

And from Matt Martin:

“Everybody just calm down. All right?” (64:40)

Transcript

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[Kenny Wallace]

Happy Wednesday morning, everybody. Can you believe it? Mark Martin. Matt Martin. They come all the way to my race shop. I'm so excited.

[Mark Martin]

We're excited.

[Matt Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

I love this. Let's start off like this. You two have the best relationship. It makes me happy to see you two and your mom Arlene travel around America. You. You two really get along well for, you know, a dad and a son.

[Mark Martin]

We do get along well. We have a lot in common. And then he has a lot of his mother's traits as well, which are really good. I'm glad that he's, you know, we're not completely 100% in common because all my bad stuff he doesn't have.

[Matt Martin]

I know the older I get, the more I realize I'm like him.

[Mark Martin]

So.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay. My wife Kim has started shopkenny wallace.com because I guess she's bored. Kim told me to make sure I know we got the coffee mugs. And everybody was betting, what coffee mug is Mark gonna have? There we go. There we go. And then Matt waking up. Look here, you got both sides of the new mug that is going to be on Shop Kenny dot com. So a shirt for you, Mark, and then a. A shirt for you, Matt. Oh, yeah, that. That is my wife. She says you guys got to have the new coffee. Kenny Louie's on there.

[Mark Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, let's get right to it. Mark, I've known you my whole life, since I've been about 10 years old. Some of the fans cannot understand. You're a Hall of Famer. You've done it all. Little old me. All I did was win nine Xfinity races. I never won a Cup race. So why have we been friends our whole life? And also, the second thing is, do you hate me? Because. I mean, does he hate me? Because we debated about this point system, so why are we friends? And do you hate me?

[Mark Martin]

You have a heart of gold. And I've known you since you were 10 or 11 years old. You've been a part of my life, important part of my life. You and your brothers and the racing that we did when you were a little kid showing up at Springfield, Missouri, on Friday night, when Rusty would be parked outside the racetrack and we would be practicing, and after practice is over, Rusty would come in. He missed all of practice. And the third time he did that, I said, rusty, why are you always late? He said, I got to wait for Herman to get out of school. Kenny has been a part of my life since 1977.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Okay. And for the fans, this is for all of you race fans. Do you hate me? Because I did not see what you saw about the point system. Do you want to bury me now?

[Mark Martin]

See, there's where some of you people need to take notes here. You need to be able to learn how to disagree without being vicious and hateful.

[Kenny Wallace]

Wow. I mean, I like that shorten here. I gotta get that. That was. That was well done. Okay. We do have cheater notes because we want to stay on course. We have paperwork over here, and it is important. And like old rednecks, we got it leaning up against my steering wheel holder. And we want to do a good job for you. So right away, at what moment were you driving the motor home the bus when you realize that this point system, this playoff system, when did you realize it was no good?

[Mark Martin]

Well, you know, I just listened to the fans, basically. It was not about me. It was never about me. If it was my feelings, I would have never voiced them so loudly.

[Kenny Wallace]

Interesting.

[Mark Martin]

But I. The fans needed a voice. I heard them. I was with them. I was out in the field with them. I was at racetracks. I read the social media in the comments, and I just felt like that I could be their voice. And so that's really what it was. And it was accumulation, really. Catalyst, I think, for it was the 2024 championship, you know, and how that went down, that's really what started the fire. And so then the way 2025 turned out just added more fuel to the fire. And it just. When I first voiced the opinion, I was a little bit embarrassed because everybody looked at me like I had two heads, like I was crazy nuts.

[Kenny Wallace]

You were brave. You were very brave.

[Mark Martin]

It. It did make me feel bad. The first time that I spoke out so loudly. It made me feel bad. But. But I did that for the fans.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. And for me, I just didn't think it was a big deal because we have been doing this points for eight years or so. Why this year? That would be my question. I didn't see any problem. I kind of became immune to it. So my question to you is why this year did it hit you like a ton of bricks?

[Mark Martin]

Well, it started with, with, with last year and Joey Logano won the championship with about a 17 place average finish. And so he's a deserving champion because he, all those talking points. He won when it mattered, when the light shined brightest or whatever. Yes, but he wasn't the greatest team and organization for, for the entire season. That's how we traditionally in motorsports judge who the champion is. And tradition matters. It truly matters. And it's starting to rear its head in NASCAR that people are saying I take tradition and legitimacy over entertainment.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, Matt, let's involve you in this. You're our statistician. Your dad gets his way. Let's say NASCAR president Steve o' Donnell comes out soon. Here we are today. It's Wednesday. The award ceremony was last night. Let's say we go to 36 races. Who would have been, who was our, who was our champion this year if it was 36 races, what do you know?

[Matt Martin]

So according to the stats that I've looked at, if they're accurate, Christopher Bell would have been the champion this year. And I think he would have been the champion last year as well.

[Kenny Wallace]

Whoa.

[Mark Martin]

Based off the Ladford system, which we're not, we, I believe we need to have a debate on how the points are awarded. Yeah, but if you went to the Ladford system, Christopher Bail would be two time champion. Now I'm not advocating for that system. I'm not advocating for any way that you award points because that's the first. You've got to be willing to say we'll do a full season championship. And then after you say we're willing to do that, then we need to have the debate about how you award.

[Kenny Wallace]

So this coffee with Kenny is going to be broke up into segments and we're going to ask Mark some highlights now. And this one, pains me to ask. And there'll be more later on when we watch Carl Edwards wreck out. Okay, he's got a straightaway lead. Caution comes out because of Jacques debris. It's a joke, is where's the debris? It's down in the grass. Then Sunday, Denny Hamlin has a 2 1/2 second lead. Both of them are clearly the champions for NASCAR that year. Carl Edwards is a champion. Denny Hamlin's a champion. Has this points format, has it ruined them mentally, physically?

[Mark Martin]

Well, that's yet to be seen with Denny.

[Kenny Wallace]

Carl never overcome it.

[Mark Martin]

He didn't. He. I mean, Carl left the sport in a way that just left me in awe. But we will see at Denny where Denny is at now. I believe he can come back in 26 and contend for the championship again.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

I also believe that 2025 was his year.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

And I also believe Kyle Larson is our champion and won the championship under the situation. Nobody discredits that. One of the greatest race car drivers of our era, you know, so kudos to those guys. But Denny and his team did the work, put the work in, whooped everybody's ass. I mean, any time he wanted, he could pull out to a three second lead. Yeah, he did it all. And then because in the name of entertainment, you know, all these different things, you know, points resets, this, that, the other, overtime finishes, whatever, something happens and it slips through their fingers and it tears everybody's heart up. It's not really a flaw in the system. It's just that, doggone it, you really wanted the guy that earned it, the guy that dominated the race. They did the work. You know how hard it is to go to Phoenix and sit on the pole and lead 2/3 of the race and, you know, pull out to 3 second. That when it matters, that's hard. And they did it all and it was just heart wrenching. So Denny is going to be challenged on, you know, how he handles this mentally and can he come back and give us another season at 45 years old? It gets harder every year, Matt.

[Kenny Wallace]

You look at these things in a neutral position. You were going to be a great race car driver. You decided not to be one. But when you watched all this play out and you watched what happened at Denny Hamlin, did it crush you or were you like, well, that's the way it is. How did you feel when you watched him lose that?

[Matt Martin]

It was really heartbreaking. I mean, I don't watch many races, but I wanted to watch, of course, that one. So I watched it with dad and I was really pulling for Denny and I mean, he dominated the whole race. And for it to end like that.

[Kenny Wallace]

Were you numb for a while or did you just go on with your life?

[Matt Martin]

Well, yeah, I mean, even I felt so bad for him because it's like, I'm like, dad, he totally earned that. And I think it's just a flaw in the whole system. I mean, when you put everything on that final race, it's winner take all.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

I mean, if you're not in the right place at the right time, even if you dominated the entire race, I mean, you can lose to somebody that they. They didn't dominate at all.

[Kenny Wallace]

You said something right there that really stuck in my brain. Winner take all. Is that too much pressure?

[Mark Martin]

Well, it's a great concept. We talked about this last winner take all. Wow. Winning your end is a great concept, but there's unintended intended consequences that have turned out to turn the fans off. They're against it now. It was a great idea. I thought, well, that's a good idea.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

But, you know, it. It has had consequences. And when you've put traditional entire season and it comes down to a right here, to a overtime, green, white, checkered, it, the whole race meant nothing.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah. Two laps meant something.

[Kenny Wallace]

So if we were 36 races and it came down to that, well, then that's natural.

[Mark Martin]

That's natural.

[Kenny Wallace]

That's natural. But because we said these four are going to race the whole field, and.

[Matt Martin]

And it's just this race, it's just.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

Really, you know, when you have a green, white checkered, it's just those final laps.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, look, we're dead serious. But Landon Castle is a brilliant person. He made a joke. He said, next year, we're not even going to run the year. We're going straight to Miami, Homestead, we're have a green light checker. Is that what we did?

[Mark Martin]

Well, that's what happened. I mean, that. That's satire for you. I mean, that is darn humor. It all came down to that. And so, you know, NASCAR has to look at this, and I've, you know, I said it, and. Well, Matt. I've repeated what Matt said. Yeah. You know, WWE is very entertaining and it's fun to watch, but if you want to watch a fight, you watch ufc.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. Because that's real.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah, it's real.

[Mark Martin]

You know, so both are great, and both are really popular, but I don't think the very top of stock car racing, which is nascar, should be the entertainment side.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

Of. Of. Of racing.

[Kenny Wallace]

So the fans, this is for all of you. The whole show's for all of you. Coffee with Kenny. But it does shock me a little bit. But the fans, you know, big Bill France, Bill France Jr. If we went into the tractor trailer, he, you know, he called it a show. Always remember that when you and I would get in trouble, we go up there and there was a sign that said, nascar can go as far as you want to go. This is a show. And they always use the word show.

[Mark Martin]

Yes, he did, right? Yes.

[Kenny Wallace]

Right. Okay. Does it surprise you? It surprises me that the fans didn't bite into the show, that, that now the fans, they want. They. They want things to play out. Did it catch you off guard that they want realism? They don't want to show.

[Mark Martin]

That's. It's a great point, Kenny, but the realism can be a show. It's just not a show. Every minute. It has to play out naturally. If you have like, we have what they call overtime, which is ridiculous.

[Kenny Wallace]

Playoffs. It's a catchy name and everything is ridiculous. What a call.

[Mark Martin]

If you have that every race.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

And you have a four wide finish every single race, pretty soon it's not all that exciting. It's just normal. But if you have a four wide finish twice a year, people go crazy.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

So it was too much. It was trying too hard. It was putting too much emphasis on, you know, making drama. Too much drama and not enough natural drama.

[Matt Martin]

Right.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

It's manufactured drama. It's not organic.

[Kenny Wallace]

Hey, this is Dylan Hart Jr. And for the latest Herman Schrader gear, you need to go to shop.dirtymomedia.com We've got plenty of options for everybody and we're adding new stuff all the time, so go to shop.dirtymomedia.com when it comes to money, you deserve to feel safe from fraud and in control. And that's what you get with Cash App. Instantly lock or unlock your card with one tap. If a suspicious charge appears, Cash App declines it and alerts you with security. Lock face ID or biometrics. Protect your account. Order a Cash App card today at Cash App Card. For a limited time only new Cash App customers can use our exclusive code to earn some additional cash. For real. Just download Cash App. Use our exclusive referral code, secure 10 in your profile. Send $5 to a friend within 14 days and you'll get $10 dropped right into your account. Firms apply. That's money. That's Cash App. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash Apps Bank Part. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton bank member fdic. Instant discounts provided by Cash App, a Block Incorporated brand. Visit Cash App legal podcast for full disclosures.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Kenny Wallace]

My notes say, why are. Why are fans so angry? They're vicious. They want me and you to Go against each other. They cuss me out. I'm like, whoa, what is the anger? They're passionate.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

But I mean, it's like, to me, I'm like, we're watching nascar and I get on and I go, great race. And they, you suck, Wallace. You never want a race. You ain't your brother. I'm like, I just said it was a good race. What is the. I mean, vicious anger.

[Matt Martin]

Dad gets it, too, man. That's crazy. Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

I don't.

[Kenny Wallace]

Do they tear you up, too? I just don't see it.

[Mark Martin]

Not as bad as you, because you provoke.

[Matt Martin]

They come after you.

[Mark Martin]

I mean, but you provoke.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, I do.

[Mark Martin]

You do it on purpose. But not when you said that was a drag race today.

[Kenny Wallace]

No, it was a great race with you.

[Mark Martin]

You know, when you said that. You know, why are they angry? I don't know. I just don't know. I don't believe they would act like that in your presence. I don't believe they would say those things in your presence. But they can hide behind, you know, that screen and do it. People need to learn to be able to disagree and still be, you know, not be vicious, you know, and civil about it. Be civil about it. Yeah. I mean, Kenny, we. We love each other.

[Kenny Wallace]

We do.

[Mark Martin]

But, you know, it's fine if we disagree. I'm not going to be vicious, and I'm not going to disown you.

[Kenny Wallace]

I mean, you know, me and my wife, opposites attract. You know, we're always gonna.

[Mark Martin]

We're always gonna love each other. We've got a bond that goes way over 50 years.

[Kenny Wallace]

We're not gonna let points destroy it.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, I like that. God, yeah. I mean, both of you are really. I just like what you said. You know, both of you guys have got great situations. All right, we're following up. You are the most well respected driver in NASCAR history, in my opinion. That's my opinion. You can call, text any driver that is relevant today, and they'll respond to you immediately. Now, with that being said, it appears NASCAR listened to you when you started talking about these points being wrong. Quickly, NASCAR responded, maybe not to you, but to everybody. How does that make you feel? That respect that you get it?

[Mark Martin]

For me, it's everything. It's my crown jewel of my career. It's my championship. Respect is not given, it's earned.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah. And when I think about that, I think about when you and Jeff Burton were teammates and you guys were going at it, sharing your chassis setups, and I remember Jeff Burton, your teammate, Talking about you guys, you know, earning the respect, winning the races, doing it the right way. Did that come in your upbringing with your dad, Julian, just working, grinding it out?

[Mark Martin]

Well, my dad did instill hard work and respect into me. But you know, as I came up the ranks, you know, I just always looked up to the, the one, the big, the big dog. Yeah, the, the Wayne Brooks, the, the Larry Carsons. Then it was.

[Kenny Wallace]

Who are these people?

[Mark Martin]

They're dirt racers. You know, at Batesville, you know, that was a six cylinder division hot dog, Wayne Brooks. Then it was Larry Carson, the, the late model, you know, hot dog. Then it was Larry Phillips.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, now you're talking.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah, then it was Dick Trickle and yeah, then it was Dale Earnhardt and you know, I just, I always craved to be treated with respect from those people that I thought were the gods of the sport.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, yeah. So, so you said on our Kenny conversation and by the way, we've done a couple really good Kenny conversations with Mark and what really got this pot stirred up is when you said, I feel like everything I did in my past in nascar, you felt like it was being diminished. So here NASCAR is now. They're getting ready to announce, we're all waiting. They're getting ready to announce a change in the format. In your mind, what do you want to see for the points format? And this is what the fans have been tuning in. Now we're on our second segment. Are you all in with 36?

[Mark Martin]

I am all in with 36. I think we need to debate what the points pay, you know, what, how you award the points. You know that's a debatable subject. But first you have to say, yes, we're going to go with full season. However, I know or almost positive, we can't get NASCAR to do that. And so I could get behind a 10 race chase format as a compromise, nothing less. If they come with this 3, 3, 4 business, it's not, it's not going to resonate with the fans. It's not going to move the needle and I will not be again, you know, a supporter of it.

[Kenny Wallace]

I haven't heard about 334. You're, you're more pretty, you know, more than I know. What is that?

[Mark Martin]

Well, that would be elimination of, let's say 16. You run three races, you eliminate and then you'd run three more races and you'd eliminate some guys and then you would have X amount of the 16 left for a four race points race. Yeah, it's just not, that's not you Gotta get back to some of the legit legitimacy and the tradition of auto racing. We are not ball sports. You know, we don't play, we shouldn't have playoffs, we don't have timed races, we don't have overtime, we've got green light checkered or, or a race, you know, a race off instead of a playoff, you know, whatever kind of thing, you know, trying to make it a ball sports is part of what is pissed off so many race fans. The traditional race fans don't like to see, they don't recognize what they're seeing.

[Kenny Wallace]

You and your son Matt put thousands of miles in the Newell coach and you talk with each other and I mean this is a compliment. You're like a mini me, you know, my big brother Rusty. I'm a, you know, you look at me and Rusty, we look the same. You two look the same. Your son comes up with some really good points and you talk about the identity, NASCAR has lost its identity. And I asked you earlier in segment one, why are the fans so angry? And we started talking about that. I like what you had to say. NASCAR has lost its identity. What was your thought on that, Matt?

[Matt Martin]

Well, just take a look as an example. Look at the Porsche 911. When you look at one from 1975 and you look at one from 2025, it still looks like the same car has the same identity. Of course the one, the modern one today is twice the size is the one from 75, but you still know what you're looking at. It's maintained its heritage over the years. You look at mass at the NASCAR cars today, they don't look anything like they used to. You know, a long time ago they had the big cars, Richard, Petty and all those guys drove well in 81 they downsized the car and it's a new car, but it still looks like a NASCAR race car. You know, it maintained its, its identity and heritage. Well, you look at the cars today and they look like sports car.

[Kenny Wallace]

The ass is dragging. Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

If you had no idea, if you had no context, nobody to tell you what that was, you would not think it's a NASCAR race car at all. And that's just one example. I think that NASCAR's gotten away from its identity and its roots and I think that has pissed off a lot of die hard race fans.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay, so we want to get this quote right and we did this in chronological order and here's why. I went there with your son Matt and I'm going to look at my notes and I'm Going to read this. And I'm reading this to Mark everybod, everybody. Here is Steve ODonnell's quote, the President of NASCAR. Steve O', Donnell, the President of NASCAR, says, We aired and gave up the core fans for the new fans. And now they said they're going to change, and they hired this company to come out with this phrase, Hell, yeah. We've all seen it. You know, to me, hell yeah means Earnhardt's my man. I liked his daddy. Okay, they said they're gonna go back. The ass of the car is dragging right now. I don't like that.

[Mark Martin]

Can't stand it.

[Kenny Wallace]

They changed the number where it's at. That pisses you off, Mark.

[Mark Martin]

I can't stand the way it looks. I mean, they could move it back a foot, you know, and it would. It looks so much better just 12 inches back. You know, it doesn't have to be dead center of the door. But anyway, yeah, I don't want to expand on. On that. You know, the statics of these race cars is more important than people think, because, you know, when you used to see a race car as a young kid, and you'd see race cars be, oh, my God.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

I don't think people look at these cars now and say that, you know, and it could be so easy. People say, well, no, the car didn't race good. I'm not talking about that. That's a hard thing to fix. How the cars race is difficult. It's easy to fix the looks of this car. Yeah, easy and very inexpensive. And it would draw. There's a certain draw to the aesthetics of a race car. It needs to excite people when they see one.

[Kenny Wallace]

In segment one of Coffee with Kenny, you said there's a lot of unintended consequences. And I gotta tell you, Mark, you kind of. You made me wake up. Because it's like a Rubik's cube. You go in to fix, make all these colors match up. Now, we messed everything up over here with this car. We created this smooth bottom, the turtle shell. But what we didn't know is when it would spin out. You couldn't get back to the pit area. Now they had to redesign the tow truck. You said some things to me about unintended consequences. Just elaborate on that a little bit more.

[Mark Martin]

What I meant by that, too, is, is that there were good concepts in all these decisions along the way. Like, I applaud the concept for so many of these things. Unfortunately, after they were implemented, we saw these things, like, oh, I didn't think about that, the negative consequences of, you know, say when, when in your end, or they wanted to make downforce with the bottom of the car so that the air wouldn't be as disturbed for the following car. I, I applaud that. But for some reason they learned after they did it that that was worse for Formula one cars.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

And it's worse for NASCAR cars. Unfortunately, we didn't see that, you know, going into it. And I thought, yeah, that's a good, that's a good principle. Seems good. But it didn't work out. So there's so many things, Everything that you do has consequences. And that's one of the things about, you know, about when you ask why the fans are so angry.

[Kenny Wallace]

Angry?

[Mark Martin]

Well, they're angry. Most of those fans that are angry are ones that have been marginalized.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

Like they were marginalized to attract new fans. And those new fans didn't come in large enough numbers to really offset the loss of the other. And they're not the, they're casual fans. Like they want to see the green light checkered, you know, the wreck at the end, the sparks flying and all that stuff. They don't watch the pre race show. They, they don't watch the post race show. You know, the die hard fan watches all of that. And so, you know, they have a legitimate reason to be because I feel they were marginalized.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Kenny Wallace]

Woohoo.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Kenny Wallace]

People don't like it when I repeat myself and I have it, but I want to stay. I want to say Steve O' Donnell's quote 1 more time because we got so much more to talk about this subject. The president of NASCAR said they erred. They messed up by trying to get new fans and they lost their old fans. Now, with that being said, let's say we're old. Mark Martin's old. He don't know what he's talking about. But Mark, you said something to me and I want to tee this up for you. It hasn't helped. TV ratings are down. We've taken grandstands out. So if the TV executives and everybody's right, why are we losing everything?

[Mark Martin]

I agree with that. 100.

[Kenny Wallace]

You said it. You said it.

[Mark Martin]

And I will say this. If you go to a full season schedule, you know, points system, it may not be as exciting and it may not bring TV ratings back up, but it will certainly bring legitimacy. And if we start now, Steve o' Donnell has said, I got to see the action, I want to see the action. But he said we're going to move back toward the tradition of the sport that I want to see. And over a period of time, if we can just be cognizant that we are the size we are and not be losing our mind trying to grow the sport so fast.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

And hold on to our traditions, then I think that over a period of time we can get some of those fans we lost back. And we need to work hard at developing new fans in a different way. We don't need to attract them with sparklers and fireworks and stuff. We need to attract them with good, solid racing and our tradition and exciting looking race cars and different storylines and build our superstars. We have superstars in the making in the sport right now. But they're too busy talking about the cut line and winning your end and you know, you can win a race and nobody even pay any attention. And I hate that Bubba Wallace won the Brickyard 400. He should have been the baddest mofo in town for a while because he won.

[Kenny Wallace]

But no, fizzled out so quick.

[Mark Martin]

It was just gone. Because winning in, now he's in and.

[Kenny Wallace]

It put him over here. Talk about you two months from now.

[Mark Martin]

And so that's just an example, man. Every race is a big deal and we need to get back to that. Not, oh, now he's in the, you know, he's in the playoffs and now you don't have to run till, you know, next round of the playoff. You know, it's just we need to change how we cover our sport.

[Kenny Wallace]

So Steve o', donnell, when everybody at nascar, they're going to know about this conversation. And he said what? He said that, he said, we're going to fix this. We're going to make it right. We're not giving up. And they said, you know, we are going to now change the racetrack. We're going to leave Phoenix because all the fans got it in their head that Penske is going to win all the championships. So now next year, the points are going to change and the last race is going to be back at Miami Homestead. What is your thoughts on not just going back to Miami Homestead, but what will that. Will we change tracks again? What is your thoughts of changing the last race of the year year to year? Is that. Can they do that? With all the logistics and TV schedule, can they do that?

[Mark Martin]

It's very challenging. You know, as you know, it is. I'm a little bit torn. I get it. That Phoenix. I think Homestead can put on a race finale racing on the surface. You know, the way that racetrack is maybe a little bit better than. Than. Than the Phoenix thing, but Phoenix is awesome.

[Kenny Wallace]

Racetrack 7 wide down that damn front straightaway.

[Mark Martin]

It is. And the racing was good there, you know, and it has been. But you, you have to remember, they pack that place in. Have since every time since 1989 when we started going there with NASCAR. They packed that place, the campgrounds, the state, everywhere. And so I understand why, you know, the championship, you know, finale was at Phoenix. I'm a supporter of Homestead. It feels right to me. But I'm also a supporter of looking at maybe changing around, but it's not as necessary as it was because it's not going to be one race for the championship. True. But I still support moving the finale around because they are smart at nascar. They can figure out how to do that and make it exciting. You know, they, they. I don't envy NASCAR at all. I don't want to be the ones making.

[Kenny Wallace]

I don't want to be them.

[Mark Martin]

I don't want to be the one that makes the call on this point. So, you know, NBC is giving them the green light, said, we don't care what your format is. We'll just do everything we can to cover it so they have the opening. I don't want to be the one that makes the decision. I feel bad for them because no matter what they do, they're going to get beat up. But certainly 80% of the fan base wants to see either full season or a 10 race runoff. Nothing less than that. And you know, people are starting to realize that's a fact. That's not me blowing smoke. That is a fact.

[Kenny Wallace]

I'm going to do it right now and hopefully this be a good one. You were right all along.

[Mark Martin]

I know.

[Kenny Wallace]

Damn I said, mark, you were right all along. And me and Matt's like, I know. And the reason I bring that up is because you said 80%.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Of the fans. You know, you took a lot of polls and you got a lot of social media people that you can talk with. Is that the number you see?

[Mark Martin]

You know, I mean, it might be 77, it might not be 90.

[Matt Martin]

Well, he did a poll, and then Jeff Gluck did A poll and Motorsport.com did a poll, and the results are pretty much identical.

[Mark Martin]

Within 1 or 2% on each one. Yes. No.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, do you think people wanted to ignore those polls initially?

[Matt Martin]

I think they did.

[Mark Martin]

Oh, yeah. They thought, well, some people did. The deniers, you know, they. They crap all over. But that, you know, between Gluck and my.

[Kenny Wallace]

I did. I thought, well, that's Mark's people.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah, right. But. But then Jeff Gluck did it because I complained to Jeff and I knew. I said, NASCAR won't do that poll because they don't want to see the results. See, it's not. So many people in the industry want the playoffs because they think that it's more exciting. So they think it's going to help them grow. Yeah, it hasn't helped. And it's killed the legitimacy. And finally people are starting to see that. So, yeah, they didn't want to believe it. Gluck put the same poll out as me, got dang near exactly the same numbers. And every poll that every other dot com OR has put out is within two or three points of, you know, our polls.

[Kenny Wallace]

I kind of felt this is a topic that we don't have on our notes. I watched the NASCAR wars banquet from Arizona through social media. All the drivers spent more time apologizing to Denny Hamlin than they did receiving their award. So the whole industry. Now, Marcus, changed my mind, and I'm going to tell you why. I'm gutted for Denny Hamlin. I'm gutted for Carl Edwards. I didn't put it all together. I do want to. And this is my quote. I do agree with you now because I feel so bad for Carl Edwards and Denny Hamlin. They should not have to put up with that crushing blow. You know, like Denny said, 40 more seconds later and he would have been the champion.

[Mark Martin]

Right.

[Kenny Wallace]

So what is your thoughts of the industry right now, right this minute? The complete industry, the drivers, Roger Penske, Rick Hendrick, they're apologizing for winning the championship. They are. You're sitting there. There it is.

[Mark Martin]

It's like, well, first of all, let's don't not diminish Kyle Larson, you know, and Hendrick Motorsports, they won the championship, and so did Joe Logano last year. Claiming anything other, you know, is just sour grapes. Yeah, but when it comes to Denny Hamlin, you couldn't. You couldn't do more to earn it than what they did, man. And he can probably come back and do as good next year. But no one, no race fan knows how hard it was for him to do what he did. And it really pulls at people's heartstrings about his father. I know about it. I raced after my father, you know, passed, and I wanted to win the race so freaking bad. Yeah, I can imagine what Denny. Denny wants his father to see before, you know, before he passes. I. It's just.

[Kenny Wallace]

It is emotional.

[Mark Martin]

It's a very emotional thing. It doesn't diminish whatever, you know, the other champions, but it does expose, you know, that. Yeah, we need to. We need to make a change in this and make this more a legitimate kind of championship. Right. One race, 40 seconds, one blown tire. You know, if the 24 didn't hit the wall, if he blew a tire like many of the others did and didn't hit the wall, then he's champion.

[Kenny Wallace]

William Byron comes to the press conference after the race and puts his hand on Denny. And Denny isn't expected. Then he's like. And William Byron says, I'm sorry I brought out that caution. Here's a guy that's fighting for the championship, and he's sorry to Denny Hamlin. And that's when I started seeing this shift, that I started going, oh, my God, maybe this point system is too brutal. Because it's. Everybody's saying, no, you know, the jack breaks on a pit stop. You lose the championship as winner take all.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. But William Byron, Greece. William Byron gained so much respect in that. I mean, that's a true man. To have empathy for that. He did not want to be interjected into the championship in that way. He wanted to be the spoiler and winning it himself, but not in that way. There again, you know, we talk about superstars. William Byron needs to be one of our superstars. Unfortunately, we don't know enough about him. Yeah, we need to cover these guys more and cover these crew chiefs. We need to make heroes out of these crew chiefs like the old days, you know, because that's what people latch onto. And we need Kyle Busch and we need Denny Hamlin. I. You know, and we need. We need Chastain to be Chastain Yeah. And we need Josevar to be host of our. I don't care. Fans need to be mad and they need to be around.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

You know, we need that. They were mad at Earnhardt. They were mad at Walter. They were mad at. You got to have that fire in our sport. And we can achieve that if we get more connected with the Cube, with, with the players, with the drivers, with the, you know, with the crew chiefs.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, you bring up a good point about personalities. And I've always been in step with you on this. I just don't see the personalities being promoted. I see personalities, but I don't see the sponsors and. And I don't see NASCAR promoting them. We're trying to get Noah Gragson out there.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Mark, you are a personality. Rusty Earnhardt, Gordon, we had this dynamic. What's going on?

[Mark Martin]

Ricky Rudd, you know, all those guys. Rooster, big, big personalities. I believe they're there now. I just don't believe they're comfortable showing it. And I don't think would cover. I think the media needs to work harder at this. We need to bring the human element more back into it. You know, drivers and drivers, hands. What are they like? What are they like away from the racetrack? What are they like, you know, around the racetrack? You know, just anything of interest. The crew chiefs, man, we had Harry Hyde and, you know, we had Tim Brewer and all these different guys. Well, we've got different crew chiefs now. We need them to show and be shown to our fans so that they become connections. And people in the grandstands or people watching TV say, I like that guy. I know how he is. I like him. I'm pulling for them. It's important to our sport. And I think that we've got to work harder at.

[Kenny Wallace]

You know, one of my thoughts is that when they're doing tv, I understand it's a very serious sport, there's a lot involved. But I always think that nascar, in conjunction with tv, they could be slid some notes like, hey, on Wednesday, this driver was over here. Maybe talk about it on the broadcast. You know, something to create that human drama. Now, you said something about Noah. It's funny. It's funny. And this is, you know, this coffee with Kenny. We can say it here. It's very easy. But. But you mentioned that you thought some of the media kind of backed off because it was too funny. And tell your story about Noah Graxton and your dad with the ball blowers. I mean, you know. Yeah, I mean, you know, listen, I've had people text Me. My phone's full right now. Ask Mark about this. Ask Mark about that. So your dad became famous because he had an air hose blowing between his legs during the NASCAR races. And they talked. We talked about it back then.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Can we not talk about that nowadays? Well, tell me about Noah.

[Matt Martin]

So I love Noah's personality, but I get the impression that he's probably afraid to fully express himself just in this climate that we have. And it was during a rain delay, I believe, and one of them big blowers. And the media person was commented on it, and Noah said something to the effective. He goes. He goes, yeah, you know, Mark Martin, you know, he used to have, you know, a blower between his legs. He goes, but mine's bigger.

[Kenny Wallace]

Funny.

[Matt Martin]

And he started laughing. And the media guy was like, well, are you.

[Kenny Wallace]

What are you talking about?

[Matt Martin]

Are you talking about the blower or something? You know, he's the blower. The blower.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

They couldn't just have fun with it?

[Matt Martin]

Yeah, they couldn't just, you know, have fun with it.

[Kenny Wallace]

Do you think, Mark, that that is a primate? Do you. Unintended quants, consequences. That's a tough one to say. Do you. Do you think with the drivers, it's unintended consequences? Like, you know how much we love Jeff Gordon. He's a hero. But Jeff just plays it by the rule book. He won't let his drivers go after he wants some Formula one style. That's my opinion. Now, I love you, Jeff. Because of this environment, are the drivers afraid?

[Mark Martin]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, just look at the things that have happened to some of the drivers. And I'll go all the way back to. And I get it, but I go all the way back to when at Talladega When Dale Jr. Said that ain't. That was the coolest thing.

[Kenny Wallace]

It was awesome ever, ever.

[Mark Martin]

And he got, you know, fined for it and got in trouble for it, and that was like, people are starting to pay attention. You gotta watch what you say.

[Kenny Wallace]

Such a. You gotta watch what you say. Is that really a cuss word? I guess it is.

[Mark Martin]

And you've got to watch what you like on social media, because a. Like, on social media, outcot Noah Gregson, you know, thrown out of nascar. So those things have toned down and drawn the drivers into their shells. And, you know, we. We need to figure out how to get that back out there. We need the connection. NASCAR needs deep connections with the drivers. The passion that that is felt, you know, I'll say again from. From Kyle Busch, from Denny Hamlin, you know, two really polarizing figures. We need more like that. We need people that say, I love that guy. And then people say, I can't stand that guy. But you need it all, you know, because that passion has driven the sport forever.

[Commercial Announcer]

This is an Etsy holiday ad, but you won't hear any sleigh bells or classic carols. Instead, you'll hear something orig the sound of an Etsy holiday, which sounds like this. Now that's special. Want to hear it again? Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy. For gifts that say I get you shop Etsy. When you invest with Fidelity Go, it does all the work for you. So while Fidelity Go monitors the markets, rebalances your portfolio and and tracks your progress to keep your investments aligned with your goal, you can invest your time however you want, all while paying no advisory fees under 25k. Invest your money, not your time with Fidelity GO. Get [e-mail] go Advisory services offered by Strategic Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Brokerage services provided by Fidelity Brokerage Services llc Member NYSE and SIPC.

[Kenny Wallace]

We're not going to end right now, but we're going to work that way. Ernie Irvin, very talented race car driver but. But wrecked the field. I remember Darlington. Ernie got into it. You and Rusty wrecked out. I mean, lap one. Ernie started, you know, he was going for wins, but he's wrecking people. And then Ernie got up in the driver's meeting at Talladega and, and he. And it was world news. Ernie apologized to all of you us and then Ernie settled down, but he was still Ernie. Right now we, we got Carson Hosvar who wrecks a lot of people. How do we keep him in the storyline and not ruin that?

[Mark Martin]

I hope that we don't calm down. I mean, I hope for our sport he doesn't. I don't have to drive with him. If I was a driver, I would say funny.

[Kenny Wallace]

I mean, I would say different, you know, but I don't want to race him.

[Mark Martin]

I go, but I want to watch him on the gas, never letting off, roughing people up. We need that, you know, and, and you speak of Ernie, I just want to say Ernie Irvin was certainly one of the most talented race car drivers I ever raced with, including I raced with Richard Petty and Kel Yarborough and David Pearson. So all. I mean, he was in Ernie's incredible. Most people can't change their personality. Yeah, drivers drive Josevar. That's his driving personality. Yeah, I had my driving personality. Ernie changed his driving personality. I wasn't his fan when he was doing all that. After that, we became best friends. I love Ernie, Loved him. He was such a great guy. But, you know, he. He looked at it and he said, in order for me to be successful, I've got to figure out how to not cause these problems and still win races. And he did. So I hope that, you know, I hope Jose, you know, doesn't change much. And I'd like to see. I'd like to see Chastain get a little bit back where he was, because I think we needed in the sport. Not that I don't feel for somebody that's on the brunt end of, you know, something that really didn't seem fair, but you need all that in our sport. We need the controversy. We need the sparks flying. We need people mad, you know, and I'm. I'm not opposed to seeing a little contact afterwards. Not on the racetrack. I'm talking about on pit road. Handle your business. Nascar let these guys handle their business.

[Kenny Wallace]

So with that being said, are you talking. So I was just on Harvick Happy Hour and I said, kevin, one of the things we're missing is after the Xfinity race was over at Bristol, you jumped over your car. You were going to. You were going after the Biff. And he said, well, that was a little bit of a show, but, you know. You know. And then he went after Ricky Rudd at Richmond. Right? Is that what you're talking about?

[Mark Martin]

Absolutely not.

[Kenny Wallace]

Not car to car.

[Mark Martin]

Just personal. No, no. Car to car. Look, I am the guy that is 100% against. After the checkered flag falls, there should never be contact again. You should not tear these race cars up after a race. That is a sin. But I think instead, if you're that mad, you need to go handle your business man to man. And that. That will have a bigger effect than you just running over somebody after the race and tearing these cars up. It's ridiculous to tear these cars up for nothing. It's different if you're going for a spot or race and you tear your car up or tear two cars up. At least you were racing. You don't tear this stuff up after the race. You. You should be able. You should be able to go handle your business.

[Kenny Wallace]

William Byron is one of my favorite people. I went to Hickory and watched him run a late model. Mark Williams, one of us. I didn't know it. I mean, he run that outside and he climbed the wall a little bit. And then when. When William Byron won the Daytona 500, I had him on Kenny Conversation. And man, I was jacked up. Super good guy. But then I went and interviewed Taylor Kuhl, a dirt racer, runs a modified. She got more, way more views than our Daytona 500 winner. Mark, that's not right. Taylor.

[Mark Martin]

Cool.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, she's a good looking girl and all that, but come on, I mean, the Daytona 500, I mean, William Byron is Jeff Gordon's gold nugget. You can clearly see that it's a 24 car. Why does William, Byron and Matt. You can chime in on this too. Why does William Byron, Matt, why does he not resonate with the fans?

[Matt Martin]

Well, I think it was like, you know, what dad was saying earlier. I don't think the media does a good enough job highlighting these guys, their personalities.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

And I also think that they're probably, they feel a little bit afraid to fully express themselves because they'll get in trouble either with the media, their car owner or sponsors. So, you know, it's, it's a multitude of things, but, you know, I think Williams probably like the rest of those guys, they feel like they have to kind of walk on eggshells too.

[Kenny Wallace]

They don't want to deal with the Jamaica.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah. I mean it, you know, it hurts their career. So, you know, I would, if I was William, I'd be sitting there saying, hey, you know, I'm just staying under the radar, do my thing, win my races and race. And unfortunately that doesn't build the sport. Yeah, in the same way that being a big personality, I mean, we, a lot of fans complain about it. We had it back in the day. I believe we could still have it. I don't believe that. I don't think there's a lack of personality in the sport now. I think there's a lack of coverage of it.

[Matt Martin]

Well, your personality, I feel like as a driver also becomes part of your brand.

[Kenny Wallace]

People are going to buy your souvenirs because they like the way you are.

[Matt Martin]

Besides your, your results and the races you go on and everything like that. I mean, I think your personality becomes part of, of your brand. I mean, Rusty Wallace Brass is a certain type of, it's a brand basically.

[Kenny Wallace]

Right.

[Matt Martin]

Dale Earnhardt is, Mark Martin is a, is a type of brand. And you know, you can't have that personality. You're just left with your results. And that's why it kind of ends.

[Kenny Wallace]

Up being like, yeah, he wins a race, I don't care.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah. You know, I mean, a big part of the excitement about drivers, who they are, man.

[Kenny Wallace]

Good point. Damn, you're right. He is ahead of his time.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay. NASCAR just came out and they said, okay, we're going to let all the cup. Now think of the Winn Dixie Ford Thunderbird right now. You were incredible in that Winn Dixie Bush Grand National. I say Xfinity next year is going to be O'Reilly Auto Parts. NASCAR just come out because they realized it had unintended consequences. They just come out and said, okay, in your first and second year of a Cup driver, you can run all the races you want, but after you've run two cup years, we're going to go from five to 10. Now they're saying cup drivers can run 10 races. When you ran that Winn Dixie car and there was Harry Gantt and there was Dale Earnhardt Senior, and I won that night race. I won that night race at Richmond. And I looked in the mirror and Mark Martin was on my ass. And I. And I saw you, and I saw. It was the greatest win of my life. Mark, I'm going to start crying right now, but my point is this. When I won that race, I got good. I was the baddest son of a. There was.

[Mark Martin]

You were.

[Kenny Wallace]

They can't say that nowadays because they won't let these Xfinity drivers run the cup drivers. What do you think of now? They're reversing the course. Come on, cup drivers. What do you think of that?

[Mark Martin]

I think it's good to have cup drivers in there, not only for these, you know, other drivers to measure themselves, but for adding some star power to the races. One of the tough things about it is these guys are driving, you know, Gibbs cars, you know, or.

[Kenny Wallace]

We didn't have that back then.

[Mark Martin]

We didn't have that. If you think about it, it was my car. It was Dale's car. It was Darrell Waltrip's car. It was, you know, Harry drove that 7 car, you know, that was always so fast. That car could have been affiliated with a Cup team. It was so fast all the time, you know, but I think Chris Carrier was a crew chief on that car. Everything he ever worked on, by the way, was fast. But, yeah, so it's different now. I think it's okay. It's okay to experiment. Hey, let's give this a try. Give the 10 races a try. You know, there are pluses and minuses. I think, you know, to have more.

[Kenny Wallace]

In NASCAR is going back to Wilkesboro, they're going back to Bowman Gray, and they're going back to Rockingham, and I think that's on Easter weekend. Rockingham is On a. A date that is very volatile, but they open it up because they want all the cup drivers to come to Rockingham to, you know, sell the place out.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah.

[Kenny Wallace]

So they're like, okay, we're going to go from five races now. Now the cup drivers can run 10, by the way, on this big weekend. We want the cup drivers loaded up at Rockingham. Is your thoughts on that? Is, you know.

[Mark Martin]

Oh, yeah, you need, you know, the sport, standalone event racing needs that. Those big events where, like the Snowball Derby, you know, in the 70s, you know, red Farmer and Jack Ingram and it made cup drivers, Buddy Baker, all these guys were at the Snowball Derby.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Mark Martin]

You know what? This, what you're speaking of at Rockingham sounds the same kind of thing.

[Kenny Wallace]

Same thing.

[Mark Martin]

Yeah. We need to have events that are not the marquee events that are big deal because it's good for racers and race fans.

[Kenny Wallace]

Okay. And this is it right here. And we joked about this a little bit. Simply put, is it fair to say I missed the good old days? Let's go back to the good old days.

[Mark Martin]

So, Matthew Reaver, I had a discussion about. About this, about the points format and, you know, and the nostalgic peddlers and all that stuff. And he said something to me that really resonated. I didn't want to hear it, but it. I think it's true. He's had that. A lot of what it is people want to go back to the old days is they want to feel like they felt when they went to a NASCAR race in the old days. And you can't get back to that today. You can't. There's nothing you could do to feel like you felt 30 years ago. Yeah, you know, I get that. So it's a good point. Trying to keep in touch with your roots or your heritage is okay, but you can't ever go back.

[Kenny Wallace]

I think about. Matt, you said we lost our identity. If we wouldn't have changed so much so fast, maybe we could still feel that old day a little bit.

[Matt Martin]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's extremely important for, you know, a sport, an organization, company, what have you, to maintain. Maintain its heritage and identity. It's just like the example I brought up with the. The Porsche 911.

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah.

[Matt Martin]

You look at an old one, you look at a new one, you're closer. Yeah. You can tell what it is. And I mean, I think that should be a guiding principle for nascar. I mean, you can't ever go back to, you know, the good, good old days. Or whatever, but you can maintain that heritage, but in a more modern setting. There's nothing wrong with doing stuff that's new or whatever, adapting to the times. But you have to take into account where you've come from. You know, you can't just erase the past, because when you do that, I mean, who are you?

[Kenny Wallace]

Yeah, you know. Okay, everybody. I hope you enjoyed coffee with Kenny. This was rare. And I want to thank Mark. Mark, for two years you came and watched me race in Wyoming. Couldn't believe it. There you showed up. I know this is a little silly sounding, but I do love you. I tell Rusty all the time, I say, rusty, I love you. And Rusty would never respond back. Lately, Rusty's been saying, love you too. And I'm like, rusty. But you made me emotional when we first started because, you know, when you and I were in nascar, you were up here and I was down here. Even though I was in the cup series, we would pass each other, but competition is a killer. It'll kill you. Competition will kill you. But when we pass each other, I'm like, there's Mark. I know Mark better than anybody. Nobody knows it. Yeah, nobody knows that I know you, but it was fine. I love you. Love you, Matt. It's fun watching you grow up. Thank you so much for. For loving me and liking me.

[Mark Martin]

You have a heart of gold, my friend.

[Kenny Wallace]

Well, okay, everybody, I. I hope that I asked him everything. Most important, Mark. Guys, quit.

[Matt Martin]

Mother.

[Kenny Wallace]

Everybody just calm down. All right? See you later. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter.

[Matt Martin]

Facebook, TikTok and Instagram.

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[Mark Martin]

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