Herm & Schrader — NASCAR's Martinsville Madness

Episode Date: April 1, 2026
Cast: Kenny Wallace (“Herm”), Ken Schrader, Rick Mast, Alan Cavanna
Theme: Unfiltered NASCAR talk: Martinsville race breakdown, career stories, debates on racing culture and Hall of Fame, state of short track racing.

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the aftermath of the recent Martinsville Cup race, with candid and hilarious takes on why Denny Hamlin dominated but lost, how Chase Elliott won, and perennial questions about track position and aero on short tracks. With signature irreverence and story-sharing, Schrader, Mast, and Cavanna dissect not just race strategy but driver mentality, classic stories from past Martinsville races, and broader points about short track racing, “clean air” debates, Hall of Fame snubs, and the changing face of grassroots motorsports culture. The hosts also touch on upcoming Rockingham events, the realities of local racing, and generational shifts in driver mentality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Martinsville Recap: How Did Chase Win? How Did Hamlin Lose?

• [00:23 - 04:40]
  • Denny Hamlin led most of the race but lost to Chase Elliott, whose crew chief Alan Gustafson made a risky two-stop call.
  • Rick Mast: “It was a gamble call, man, and he won it.... The 9 car was flat, getting it at the end. I mean, he was fast. The 11 car couldn't really do anything with him.” [02:20]
  • Denny missed a shift late—possibly a race-losing error. Alan Cavanna: “In Denny's case, that ended up maybe costing him the race… he fell back to third and never could get back to the lead.” [03:37]
  • Both Hamlin and Lee Pulliam missed shifts late, showing even experienced drivers can fumble under pressure.

2. Shifting in Modern NASCAR Cars

• [04:40 - 06:38]
  • Discussion about H-pattern vs sequential gearboxes.
  • Kenny Schrader: “Sometimes they just mess up. You want it to be quick, you want it to be right, and you just... rush everything a little bit and you just miss it. I mean, I know I've done it.” [05:21]
  • Stories about mental tricks to avoid missed shifts, and how even veterans fall prey to mistakes.

3. Track Position, “Clean Air,” and The New Package at Martinsville

• [06:54 - 11:00]
  • Ongoing battle between the importance of track position vs. mechanical grip and “clean air”—even at Martinsville, a short track where aero “shouldn't” matter.
  • Kenny Schrader: “I'm so tired hearing about clean air, but damned if there ain't something to it.” [07:59]
  • Rick Mast recalls: An old Chrysler engineer’s plywood analogy illustrating how “air” matters at any speed. [09:01]

4. The Bubba Wallace vs. Carson Hocevar Incident

• [11:00 - 15:40]
  • Debate: racing incident or retaliation?
  • Rick Mast: “Bubba just happened to be the last one at the back end of that accordion that didn’t stay off the brake... almost like... I’m not running good. I’m mad… I ain’t pushing the brake that hard. Just gonna hit him.” [13:47]
  • Kenny Schrader: “I don't think he's out of control. He's just been real aggressive, but he got good control.” [12:12]
  • The group agrees: easier to “short circuit” at Martinsville due to its intensity.

5. Classic Martinsville Stories & Old School Racing

• [16:18 - 18:49]
  • Recalling moments like Earnhardt spinning, doing a 360, and winning.
  • Alan Cavanna (on Schrader’s 4th-place run after Davey Allison’s death): “That was him that got in Earnhardt... Herm ran really good.” [16:36-16:56]
  • Laughter about how, back in the day, no one checked up for wrecks—they just plowed through.

6. State of Competition and Points Rundown

• [19:07 - 21:16]
  • Top-10 finish rundown; confusion over Truex’s finish.
  • Bubba Wallace’s drop in points—was it just frustration, or more?
  • Rick Mast: “The problem, that's part of our sport... you get frustrated like that, and you get these pressures and things… and your chip level is a lot lower.” [21:16]

7. Dealing with Being Outperformed by Teammates

• [22:36 - 24:05]
  • Schrader recalls Hendrick Motorsports party: “You want your team to do good. You just want to be the best.” [22:46]
  • Honest talk about internal team rivalries.

8. Teammate Wrecks: Schrader & Rudd at Martinsville

• [24:35 - 26:26]
  • Wild story of crashing both team cars.
  • Schrader: “We killed both cars. We had a hell of a meeting Monday in Rick's office... turned out, said, well, just be more damn careful when you're around each other.” [24:41-26:26]

9. Race Strategy, Car Durability, and Racing Savvy

• [27:40 - 30:09]
  • Harry Gant’s advice: sometimes, early in a race, let a faster car go, save the car, and learn from them.
  • “We used to know if we could be running at the end, you'll be top 20—engines, rear ends, brakes, everything was gonna break... now... you gotta run your butt off the whole race.” [28:56]
  • Laughs about prize money barely covering tires (“30th place paid $1,100, Rick.” [29:54])

10. Fan Reactions/Social Media & The “Good Race” Debate

• [30:42 - 31:42]
  • Jeff Gluck poll results: “Was Martinsville a good race?” — 50% Yes, 50% No.
  • Schrader: “You're not going to get those big numbers... unless they're beating and banging.” [31:17]

11. Short Track Racing’s Changing Landscape

• [32:04 - 37:47]
  • Discussion about local aces like Lee Pulliam and decreasing opportunities for short-track hot-shoes to shine at higher levels.
  • Debate on Hall of Fame standards: Alan Cavanna: “Lee Pulliam is a NASCAR hall of famer... not the cup series hall of fame, it is the NASCAR hall of fame.” [35:23]
  • Kenny Schrader: “Back in the day you didn't necessarily want to be in the Cup Series... financial rewards weren't there... Larry Phillips should be in big time.” [36:10]

12. Reflecting on the NASCAR Hall of Fame Selection

• [38:23 - 40:00]
  • Rick Mast: “I always felt like the first year, first two years we should have put a gob of guys in... to cover all the guys we still argue about that should be in.” [38:23]

13. Short Track Participation and Grassroots Health

• [40:00 - 43:05]
  • Cost is a barrier for local racers to get “shots” at big races.
  • Schrader and Mast marvel at healthy crowds, tough inspection, and diversity of racing currently on offer, but worry about pricing and cultural shifts.

14. Changing Driver Mentality and Toughness

• [43:05 - 47:03]
  • Old school: hard racing, few “bump and runs.” Now: less hunger, more entitled attitudes?
  • Rick Mast: “It sets up not having that hunger, right?... Some of these younger guys... don't have that hunger that so many of the guys that I raced against had.” [47:03]

15. Comparing Pavement & Dirt Short Track Racing

• [47:21 - 49:01]
  • Dirt stars have series they aspire to; pavement racing shuttles kids up the ladder quickly—sometimes too quickly.
  • Cavanna: “You go watch a World Outlaws [dirt] race... you're seeing the best, they've been there for 20 years... Not the case with pavement stock car racing.” [47:21]

16. Grassroots Racing Optimism and Inspection Tales

• [51:41 - 54:31]
  • Schrader recounts racing at Lucas Oil Speedway with 176 cars, tough but fair tech.
  • Mast: Same story at Natural Ridge Speedway—good car counts, good promoters, but racing still expensive.
  • Schrader: “Let's inspect the hell out and make sure everybody's right... made you feel good about the sport.” [52:50]

17. Rockingham’s Crucial Weekend: A Return to Greatness?

• [54:35 - 59:31]
  • Rockingham’s upcoming weekend might dictate its NASCAR future.
  • Schrader: “Hopefully they get the weather they deserve... could have a lot to do with the future of that racetrack and NASCAR.” [55:40]
  • Rick Mast reminisces about classic Rockingham TV races and the legendary infield party buses.

18. On Racing Venues Closing & Misunderstandings

• [58:26 - 59:31]
  • Schrader: “We didn’t get rid of [Wilkesboro or Rockingham], and NASCAR didn’t get rid of them. The families... decided it was a better time for them to get out.” [58:26]

19. Martinsville, Rockingham, and Earnhardt Lore

• [61:40 - 63:14]
  • Alan’s family Earnhardt story — Earnhardt “just came and went... just so fast and so subtle about everything he did.” [62:30]
  • Jokes and friendly ribbing about Dale’s “subtle” style.

20. Humor, Reflections & Closing

• [63:29 - 64:19]
  • Corny closing jokes: “Why shouldn’t you play tennis in the jungle? Too many cheetahs. Cheaters. Cheetahs.” [63:29]
  • Final self-roast of Alan’s legendary “delivery.”
  • Schrader: “We've been an hour and 15 minutes, but I'm not sure they're going to come up with a half hour's worth to make a show. But good luck.” [64:19]

Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On race-winning calls:
  Rick Mast (02:20): “He won the race. He made that call... That's the one thing that I took from. Heck of a... it was a gamble call, man, and he won it.”
• On “clean air” at Martinsville:
  Kenny Schrader (07:59): “I'm so tired hearing about clean air, but damned if there ain't something to it.”
• On classic missed shifts:
  Kenny Schrader (05:21): “Sometimes they just mess up... you rush everything a little bit and you just miss it. I mean, I know I've done it. I'm sure Rick's done it...”
• On the Bubba/Hocevar clash:
  Rick Mast (13:47): “Bubba just happened to be the last one at the back end of that accordion that didn’t stay off the brake... That's what it is.”
• On Hall of Fame debate:
  Schrader (36:10): “Back in the day you didn't necessarily want to be in the Cup Series... Larry Phillips should be in big time.” Rick Mast (38:23): “I always felt like... we should have put a gob of guys in [the Hall]... That's the only criticism I’ve really ever had...”
• On generational changes:
  Rick Mast (47:03): “These guys... they’re going to come through and do this deal, but a lot of them are not going to have and don't have that hunger that so many of the guys that I raced against had.”
• On short track optimism:
  Schrader (52:50): “Let's inspect the hell out and make sure everybody's right... made you feel good about the sport.”
• On the importance of Rockingham:
  Schrader (55:40): “It has to be an important weekend to see what could possibly happen there now.” Rick Mast (57:14): “Rockingham always produced great TV races... when we got rid of Rockingham, we got rid of one of our best TV races...”
• On racetrack closures:
  Schrader (58:26): “We didn’t get rid of them, and NASCAR didn’t get rid of them. The families... decided it was a better time to get out.”

Episode Takeaways

• The art of calling a race remains as critical as the driver’s touch; a crew chief’s gutsy call can change everything.
• Short tracks, once bastions of “mechanical” racing, increasingly bend to aerodynamics and track position.
• The tension between local racing roots and modern racing’s economics continues to shape who gets opportunities—and how hungry drivers are.
• The debate around NASCAR’s Hall of Fame will persist, but for the Kennys and Rick, it’s always about honoring the whole racing landscape.
• Despite worries about cost and changing mentalities, the grassroots scene is robust, energetic, and often more fun than the top divisions.
• Legendary racetracks like Rockingham are enduring symbols—keeping them alive is about more than nostalgia, it’s about quality racing and community.

If you love racing, irreverent stories, and honest debate, this episode is brimming with all three.