Herm & Schrader – Episode Summary
Podcast: Herm & Schrader
Episode: "Racers are Racing and Lawyers are Talking"
Date: December 3, 2025
Hosts: Kenny Wallace (“Herm”) & Ken Schrader
Producer/Guest: Craig Moore
Main Theme
This episode is a classic installment of Herm & Schrader: two veteran racers and friends candidly riff on all things motorsports, from recent races and old stories to the explosive state of NASCAR, dirt events, and the blockbuster legal showdown shaking up big-league stock car racing. It's occasionally irreverent, always racing-obsessed, and packed with heartfelt, unfiltered wisdom from two guys who have lived their lives at the track.
Table of Contents
- Show Opener & Format Change
- Volusia, Turkey Night, and Turkey Derby Dirt Roundup
- F1 in Las Vegas – Racing, Riches, and Reflections
- Gateway Dirt Nationals & PRI Show
- IHRA’s New Stock Car Series & Power Dynamics
- The NASCAR Lawsuit – Explosive Allegations & Fallout
- Personal Reflections & The State of the Sport
- Jokes, Goodbyes, and Final Thoughts
Show Opener & Format Change
- [01:33] Herm: “It is hard to believe that we've lasted this long.”
The guys open the show reflecting on it being their last episode of 2025. Producer Craig Moore announces it is also his last show due to schedule demands. - [02:28] Craig Moore: “My one day off is Monday when we record it. And I can't do a whole year of not having any days off.”
Kenny & Herm thank him for his work, prompt stories about the intensity of racing and radio broadcasting. - [03:11-04:09] Herm & Schrader: Reflection on the challenge of balancing racing with media gigs. Herm compares their lives to the stamina required in regular jobs.
Volusia, Turkey Night, and Turkey Derby Dirt Roundup
Volusia & Florida Dirt Racing
- [04:24] Herm: Notes Kenny’s recent trip to Volusia and his rare “cross to the dark side” in making a social media video.
- [05:03] Schrader (on track conditions):
“Oh my gosh, it was just as smooth as can be... What we want is good wide racetrack where the surface is good all the way across. And they have really... It's going to be a phenomenal Speedweeks.” - [06:42] Recap of Volusia’s week – Drake Troutman is discussed as recent winner.
- Reflection on how Florida racing doesn’t translate back home in the Midwest.
- [07:30] Herm: “Whatever you do in Florida, leave it in Florida. The tracks just don't...they don't work anything up here.”
Wall Stadium & Turkey Night
- [09:10] Discussion about Wall Stadium's annual Turkey Derby (New Jersey dirt racing tradition).
- [16:17] Craig Moore: “That’s where the great Ray Evernham got his feet wet.”
- [09:51-14:19] Turkey Night Grand Prix at Ventura Raceway (California)
- [13:50] Herm:
“Corey Day wins the 84th running of the Turkey Night Grand Prix from Ventura Raceway.” - Noted as a major American midget race, with a who's-who of past winners.
- [14:48] Herm (on using live highlights):
“I'm literally on Flow on my phone watching the highlights. It's so easy to do.”
- [13:50] Herm:
Notable Moments & Quotes
- [12:46] Schrader (on streaming woes):
“Was having trouble with my streaming Saturday night during the Ventura race...So it was late and I decided it was a good time to go to bed.” - [14:49] Herm: “Corey Day... He's going to drive for Hendrick next year... The kid's got a lot of talent.”
- [15:31] Max Zackam wins the Turkey Derby.
- [16:36] Schrader (on Wall):
“It's got a lot of bank, but it's like Bowman Gray with bank...almost like a rule you have to hit the car in front of you in the middle. Everybody runs over everybody. It's a little challenging.”
- [16:36] Schrader (on Wall):
F1 in Las Vegas – Racing, Riches, and Reflections
- [18:20] Herm opens up about Brad Sweet and Casey Kane attending Las Vegas F1 and ponders why F1 is such an “elite” fascination.
- [19:25] Schrader:
“It's expensive. I like a couple of movies, you know, they made...I mean, I hear $300 million budgets and stuff.” - Herm shares a story about visiting Ferrari in Modena, Italy, witnessing extreme fan devotion even in the off-season.
- [21:23] Schrader:
“Well, I think you...I think you need to be wealthy if you go there. I don't think you can just act it. I think you need to be wealthy if you go there.” - [21:44] Schrader (on F1 infrastructure in Vegas):
“They built a lot of permanent structures out there for that race.” - Discussion of F1’s appeal—man and machine, status, the ONLY truly international motorsport.
- [22:21] Schrader: “Well, it's only a worldwide thing anyway. The only worldwide racing.”
- [23:55] Herm: “Is there something to be learned there, Kenny? They only run 24 races.”
- Thoughts on scheduling — NASCAR used to be just 28, now more, and whether a shorter season would leave fans more engaged.
- [25:28] Craig Moore: “When the NFL season ends, you want more. When the NASCAR season ends, you're kind of like, okay, take a break.”
Gateway Dirt Nationals & PRI Show
- [27:17] Schrader:
“I've never ran the Dome...I'm amazed that it's been nine years now, and I'm amazed that has grown...35,000, it's got to be the biggest attendance for a dirt race.” - [28:53] Herm: “Is it a theatrical event that celebrates...I always say it's about celebrating dirt racing...they come out with these paint schemes...gentlemen, if you want to be invited back, make us remember you.”
- Comparison to Chili Bowl and how certain dirt events become “must-runs” in the offseason.
- Discussion of Performance Racing Industry (PRI) Show and how certain races line up to keep racers busy all winter.
- Shoutout to Jason Fager, whose car is painted as a tribute to Schrader’s old Kodiak car.
- [31:44] Herm on Fager’s evolution as a driver: “He's really the best, I think Jason Fager's ever been.”
IHRA’s New Stock Car Series & Power Dynamics
-
[35:12-36:35] Herm & Schrader:
- IHRA (International Hot Rod Association) is launching a new stock car series with a simplified rule book, limiting expensive technology and making racing more accessible.
- The owner of IHRA is a rich electrician who won a contract from Elon Musk.
- [37:11] Herm: “We need the weird people because they're the ones that got all the money. Smart people, we stay broke.”
-
[36:34] Schrader:
“They're leasing [the racetracks]. So the tracks haven't said, hey, we want you to come to our place.” -
Scheduled races at Pulaski Motorsports Park (VA), Cordell (GA), Newport (TN), Anderson (SC), Stalham (IN), and Memphis (TN).
-
[37:23] Schrader (skeptical): “Oh yes, we need another association and another set of rules. Yeah, most definitely. Bring it on...We'll just have to see what happens.”
The NASCAR Lawsuit – Explosive Allegations & Fallout
The Lawsuit at a Glance
- [38:00-51:00] The Main Event: NASCAR faces a monopolistic practices lawsuit from 23XI Racing (Michael Jordan, Denny Hamlin) and Front Row Motorsports, who refused to sign the newest charter agreement.
- Grounds: Teams objected to “take-it-or-leave-it” demands over charters, broadcasting money, and more transparent governance.
Notable Revelations & Quotes
-
[39:00] Herm: “Steve Phelps, our president, said Richard Childress needs to be taken out back and flogged. He's a dumb redneck.”
(This quote is from an internal email, now public due to the lawsuit.) -
[39:30] Herm: “Steve O’Donnell came out and said SRX Series is our competition and we need to put a knife in the SRX series...”
-
[40:17] Schrader: “When SRX was at its best, they were having ratings that were good compared to Truck and Xfinity...”
-
[41:49] Schrader (on 23XI’s position):
“I have a big problem...somebody comes into a sport...invests millions...and then they want to change it. Yes, all the teams would like to have more money...But Penske signed, Rick signed, Wood Brothers signed, Coach Gibbs signed, Richard Childress signed...A couple teams decided that it wasn’t going to be that simple.”
-
[43:14] Herm:
Reflects on how the Race Team Alliance was created so teams could get more negotiating power: “It started with all the car owners signing...It made that group strong...Then they went to NASCAR and they said, hey, you guys get a billion a year; we want more.”- Defends 23XI and Front Row as “scapegoats” for the rest.
-
[45:00] Schrader:
“There could be financial help...if they do win. But what's it going to do to our sport?...How many fans are we going to piss off? How many sponsors?...Nothing good can come from it, I don't think.” -
[46:44] Herm (on Mark Martin’s perspective):
“Mark...calls them gimmicks...They have destroyed our sport for the last five years by saying the points are no good, the TV’s no good...It hurts me because it made me and you a good life. We are in trouble right now.” -
[47:35] Schrader (on drivers vs. owners):
“Drivers...just puppets...If the 36 drivers that run them charter cars...not a One of you are coming back...it’ll take a couple years, but there’ll be 36 more guys. You know, the car owners are vital.”
Richard Childress Fallout
- NASCAR President Steve Phelps’s derogatory comments about Childress leaked—creating uproar.
- RCR (Richard Childress Racing) contemplates legal action.
- [48:40] Herm: “The judge said, gentlemen, you better solve this behind closed doors because you're getting ready to burn the sport down.”
Personal Reflections & The State of the Sport
- Universal sense of sadness, worry, and even bitterness about what the lawsuit, leaks, and infighting are doing to the sport and its future.
- Herm laments the good old days, reflects on how “the race team alliance” changed the negotiation dynamic forever.
- Noted that NASCAR is promising a new points structure, but there’s skepticism that the legal battle may complicate everything.
- [53:26] Kenny Schrader: “We don't know if the...judge and the jury is going to tell them what they're doing with [points].”
- [53:55] Kenny Schrader:
“There's going to be some big hurt feelings.” - [54:06] Herm:
“This reminds me of when you and I would start the races at Bristol and you just go around apologizing to all the drivers before the race starts.”
Jokes, Goodbyes, and Final Thoughts
- [33:51, 54:16] Classic Cornball Racing Dad Jokes:
- Schrader: "What did the symphony conductor name his twin girls? Anna one and a two." [34:12]
- Craig: "Why did the coffee taste like dirt? Because it was ground just a few minutes ago." [54:34]
- [55:41] Herm: Heartfelt goodbyes to departing producer Craig Moore.
- [55:45] Herm: “And listen, everybody, this is our last show. You will hear the best of coming forward.”
- [56:12] Craig: “Why can’t dinosaurs clap their hands? Because they’re extinct.”
Most Memorable Quotes & Moments
On the Lawsuit:
- Herm [39:00]:
“Our president, Steve Phelps, said Richard Childress needs to be taken out back and flogged. He’s a dumb redneck.” - Schrader [41:49]:
"Somebody comes into a sport...invests millions...and then they want to change it." - Herm [43:14]:
“All they are is scapegoats. The other car owners are like, man, I hope they win this damn thing.”
On the Future:
- Schrader [53:55]:
“There’s going to be some big hurt feelings.”
On Racing Culture:
- Herm [28:53]:
“If you win the race, it’s awesome. But people just...they come out with these paint schemes...Gentlemen, if you want to be invited back, make us remember you.”
Key Timestamps
- [01:33] – Reflection on show's longevity; Craig’s exit.
- [04:24] – Volusia dirt race review.
- [09:51] – Thanksgiving racing traditions; open-wheel dirt culture.
- [13:50] – Turkey Night Grand Prix: Corey Day wins.
- [15:31] – Wall Stadium Turkey Derby: Max Zackam wins.
- [18:20] – F1 in Las Vegas and the allure of elite auto racing.
- [25:28] – NFL vs NASCAR season length debate.
- [27:17] – Gateway Dirt Nationals: growth and spectacle.
- [35:12] – IHRA’s new stock car series announced.
- [38:00-51:00] – The NASCAR monopoly lawsuit: breakdown, emails, and industry-wide tension.
- [53:26] – The new points structure and looming legal gridlock.
- [54:16+] – Jokes, reflection, heartfelt send-off to Craig Moore.
- [55:45] – Final goodbyes, episode conclusion.
Overall Tone & Takeaway
This episode offered an unvarnished, at times bittersweet portrait of a sport at a crossroads: nostalgia for racing’s glory days crashes headlong into legal, financial, and cultural upheaval. Herm & Schrader’s banter, humor, and irrepressible affection for the racing community lightens the mood, but their honest worries for the future—and reverence for what made racing special—stick with you.
For listeners craving racing’s real story, warts and all, this is about as authentic—and occasionally hilarious—as it gets.
