Kenny Wallace (2:37)

You're wonderful, and you have a special place in my heart because since 1991, you have looked after drivers like myself, Jeff Burton, Steve Grissom, Chuck Bowne. You really took care of the NASCAR Busch Series. And there's the decal, and I still have the most starts, but we know that that record will be broken this year. If everything goes right, Jeremy Clements is going to break my record out there at San Diego. You know, let's start out like this. You do a lot of things at the Scene Vault podcast.

Rick Houston (3:23)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (3:25)

What's new, my friend?

Rick Houston (3:28)

Well, we have. Recently, in the past few months, we have completed a project that has been a part of the. A part of the plan ever since the very beginning. We've been doing the show now for eight months. I. I actually scanned all 32 years of Winston cup saying grand national scene, NASCAR scene content now.

Kenny Wallace (3:51)

Wow.

Rick Houston (3:52)

It has been an odyssey. I mean, it's been a passion. And I don't know what's going to happen with it. I don't have. I don't have that much of a. I don't have that much pull in the industry. So it's. It's there and it's available now. As far as what we've got coming up, we have a. With the 25th anniversary of Dale Earnhardt's accident coming up tomorrow, as a matter of fact, on the 18th, be 25 years since the 2001 Daytona 500. And we have put together a podcast series called Firestorm 2000, 2001, the Years that Forever Changed NASCAR. And it's a major project. We devote five episodes to each of the drivers we lost during those two years. We devote the rest of the project to the rest of the other five episodes. We devote to just the. Kenny, you were around then.

Kenny Wallace (4:56)

Oh, yeah.

Rick Houston (4:56)

And you remember just how turbulent those two years were in particular. I mean, they were. It was not fun to be in that garage during that time frame because it was just horrible. Every week, some. We were losing somebody or somebody was coming up with some new conspiracy theory. It was just a bad two years.

Kenny Wallace (5:19)

I was out at Kenny Schrader's just recently, and I told Schrader what was going on. And Kenny, I think I. I went somewhere in his shop for not one minute, and I came back and he looked at me, Kenny Schrader, and he rattled off all the names of the drivers that lost their lives in 2000, 2001. And Kenny Schrader is a Historian Rick, let's take a deep breath. I want to tell everybody a little bit about you. And then, you know, the great thing about Kenny conversation is just that. And I remind everybody, you know, it. We don't go in chronological order, everybody. This is a conversation, but an overview. Rick Houston has covered NASCAR since 1991. Now, always feel free to add in, I'm going to say this, and then you, you clean it up. Rick Hewson has covered NASCAR since 1991 and was the Busch Series editor for NASCAR Winston Cup Scene. Rick Houston has authorized numerous books on NASCAR, including NASCAR's greatest race, the 1992 Hooters 500. Now, we can do a lot more talking about what you've done, but is that accurate?

Rick Houston (6:40)

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's kind of interesting. I've been able to pursue one of my main interests in life, nascar. Certainly that has been my passion for a long time now, but I've also been able to do some, do some really interesting things in the world of NASA. Wrote a book about the history. Well, wrote a book about the guys that were about the people who worked in and around mission control during the Apollo era. Got to know a lot of those guys, and wound up that book was turned into a really great documentary. So, you know, that was, that was my other main passion in Life. But since 2006, 2007, I've kind of been back in the NASCAR fold, kind of nibbling around the edges. Don't travel anymore. But we started the same Vault podcast in the summer of 2008. And Kenny, I don't know about you. When you do an interview and people start to talk, you never know what you're going to get, especially if you're interviewing Kenny Wallace.

Kenny Wallace (7:51)

Well, but we.

Rick Houston (7:54)

Go ahead.

Kenny Wallace (7:55)

Well, you're right, because I never thought in a million years you would bring up the Apollo. And this is what leads to great conversations. I, I, for example, when you just said that, I immediately went to. When the first lady we were sending, you know, to the moon or outer space. I remember where I was in the St. Louis area when that mission exploded.

Rick Houston (8:20)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (8:21)

So, I mean, you know, it just makes your, your brain, you know, where were you? I forgot her name. It escapes me, but the first lady we were sending up in, you know, in the rocket, and it got up, up there just a little bit, and I was up around St. Charles. So that's what happens during these conversations. It's up to me and you to put the guardrails up.

Rick Houston (8:44)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (8:44)

Okay. Back on track.

Rick Houston (8:46)

Well, you're talking About Christmas college.

Kenny Wallace (8:49)

Yes.

Rick Houston (8:49)

The teacher who was on board Challenger when it had the unfortunate tragic accident in January of 1986. I remember exactly where I was. I was at lunch with my mom. I had just started college, was in my second semester of college and my mom and I were out. We stopped for lunch. And this was before cell phone. So I had to call my kid brother. And my kid brother said, hey, I just want to let you know, the space shuttle exploded. Well, he's my dumb kid brother. He didn't know what he was talking about. Well, Kenny, then we walked into a Sam's Club. Just a few moments, just a few minutes later, every TV in the place was turned to that accident. So over and over and over on 20 different TVs were those images. So I got to know people who were in the room, who were in mission control when that happened. And you talk about a life changing event, that was it. And when it comes to NASA and nascar, I'm certainly no engineer, I'm no mechanic. I couldn't change the oil on my car to save my life. But my interest in both is the human element. I'm generally, in general, I'm fascinated with ordinary people who do extraordinary things. And to me, there's nothing more extraordinary than climbing to the top of a 363foot launch vehicle and telling somebody to light the fire.

Kenny Wallace (10:24)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (10:25)

By the same token, there's nothing more extraordinary than climbing behind the wheel of a race car and driving it to 200 miles an hour up against 42 other crazy fools. So you know that I'm, I'm. That's just my interest. And so, yeah, that's, that's where that dual connection came from.

Kenny Wallace (10:46)

Okay, everybody, we're about eight minutes into this and we're talking to Rick Houston. And, and Rick Houston is the Scene Vault podcast. Rick's all about NASCAR history all the time. So check out the Scene Vault podcast. All right, here we go. Let's put the guard rails up. The subject matter at hand. You have created the first episode of your 10 episode Firestorm series releases like you said. Was it February 18th?

Rick Houston (11:19)

Yeah. Tomorrow. Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (11:20)

Okay. And this is dedicated to you said five drivers who died during 2000, 2001. And it's very powerful, very heartfelt. I want to start out like this. I do want to. We're going to talk about those five drivers in one minute. But it seems like every year we celebrate and we remember the death of the great Dale Senior. The subject has been brought up now and Dale Jr. Even said, look, it's been 25 years. You know, do we keep celebrating? I guess we celebrate Elvis. Do we celebrate Frank Sinatra? Where are we? Just before we get to your Firestorm series, where are we right now with the death of Dale Senior, do we keep celebrating his life every year at the Daytona 500?

Rick Houston (12:22)

Yes. In a short answer, yes. Because I very deeply believe the, the moment that we forget our past is the day that we don't have a future. And Steve Wallace. And Steve Wallace, Steve Wade says that at the top of every single episode of the same Vault podcast, I include that clip of him saying, the day that we forget our past is the day that we have no future. Now. Yes, it's been a long time. Now there are drivers driving today who are not even alive. When Dale Earnhardt drove his last race, Kenny, I don't know that, you know, when I began putting the notes together for the podcast, that hit me like a ton of bricks. I don't know that I had ever felt that old until, until I figured out that, you know, there are several drivers today who weren't alive when Dale Earnhardt drove. So, yes, it has been a long time.

Kenny Wallace (13:23)

Brother R. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, but.

Rick Houston (13:29)

The connection is if we don't have the safety innovations that were put in place as a result of those two years, races like we're seeing at Daytona and Talladega, they're not possible.

Kenny Wallace (13:43)

Yeah, I agree.

Rick Houston (13:44)

You know, the day, the day that we forget this sport is dangerous is the day that it's going to come back and bite us in the butt very hard.

Kenny Wallace (13:52)

Yeah. And we'll kind of end with Dale Senior like this. I've always said Dale Senior did not die in vain. He is the one that really pushed, you know, the softer walls, the HANS device, the full containment seat. You know that it's sad that it took the death of Dale Senior. Now Jeff Burton and myself have talked about this, that, you know, he was, he was on the edge. Jeff Burton went to Daytona with, you know, the, you know, the full containment seat, things like that.

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Kenny Wallace (15:38)

Okay, everybody, let's put this back on the rails. We are on the rails. Let's, let's start with your first episode, but let's, let's talk about the five drivers. Do some talk and tell me the five drivers as you tell me, then I'm going to write their names down and we'll remind everybody the five drivers that we lost in 2000, 2001.

Rick Houston (16:02)

Well, number one, and I name these in chronological order. I do not name them in position in order of what I consider to be their importance. All right. I have always done that because I believe it took all five drivers for, I took the loss of all five drivers for that those changes to eventually happen. So number one, he died on May 12, the year 2000. Adam Petty. Kenny. I was there that day and it really, I mean it really changed the course of my career because I had been, you know, I had, obviously I was aware that the sport was dangerous, but I had talked, Kenny, I had talked to Adam that morning, had laughed together, and then two hours later he was gone. And that, that shook me in a way that I couldn't even describe. One of my sons was born less than a year later. One of them is named Adam. In Adam's memory, the second driver was Kenny Irwin. Same track, the same turn. And that happened in July. Then we lost Tony Roper in October of the year 2000. So that meant that all three of NASCAR's three national touring divisions that year experienced fatalities. So that, that in and of itself was a, was a major deal. Now then, of course, February 18th, the year 2001, Dale Earnhardt lost his life. I mean, Kenny, how far is it from turn four to the finish line at Daytona? Yeah, I mean, several hundred yards maybe.

Kenny Wallace (17:46)

Yeah. You know, I want to interrupt you right there. I, I, we're going to go through every one of these drivers and you're going to say everything you want to say. But I just got to say that how eerie it is when we, we have all these memories. But Dale Sr. Also died right where his best friend, Neil Bonnet died. They both hit the wall right there almost identically. But. Okay, so go ahead.

Rick Houston (18:08)

We're.

Kenny Wallace (18:09)

We're the fourth driver, Dale Senior.

Rick Houston (18:11)

And then finally, in October, in an ARCA race, Blaze Alexander was killed, ironically enough, in a accident that also involved Carrie Earnhardt there at Charlotte, there on the front stretch, his best. One of his best friends, Jimmy Johnson, was making the first start of his Winston cup career in the. In the 500.

Kenny Wallace (18:38)

So I want to go. I want to go individually on these drivers, but I, you know, listen, we've lost a lot of race car drivers in the early days. I do want to say, you know, just want to say it, okay? Neil Bonnett, these three drivers we lost, you know, Rob Moroso in a car wreck coming home from Wilkesboro. Davey Allison flying a helicopter to Talladega. Alan Quickie flying to Bristol. Of course, the terrible tragedy with Rick, Henrik and his, you know, his family headed to Martinsville. Man, that. Okay, so incredibly, incredibly horrible time in NASCAR history. So, okay, go back to what you want to talk about.

Rick Houston (19:29)

Well, I mean, you knew Adam. So did I. He was just. I'm glad that I. From what I understand, I'm probably. I'm probably glad that I didn't. Wasn't around him a lot when he was young, because evidently he was hell on wheels. He. Chris Hussey, his crew chief at the time of the accident, Chris Hussey actually says on the podcast, somebody should have beat that boy. And, you know, so, yeah, he was. He was wild and he was rambunctious. He was bouncing off the wall, but he matured. And so, you know, the kid that I knew and the Bush Series that morning, I came into the media center. The morning of the accident, I came into the media center, and he was talking to a group of reporters inside, and he was wearing sunglasses. And I told him, I said, man, you're not a big enough big shot yet to be wearing sunglasses indoors. You're not a superstar just yet. And he kind of laughed. He put them on top of his head. He said, yes, sir. And I went back to work. And he was talking to the other reporters. Well, then I heard him say. Just, you know, vaguely heard him say something about how he had been trying to lose some weight. And Adam. Adam was 6, 3, 4. Somewhere in there, he might have weighed 100 pounds soaking wet. And I couldn't help myself. I turned around and, you know, I've always been gravitationally challenged. And I told. I told Adam I said, man, I hate skinny people. Just hate them. Can't stand skinny people. He laughed. Everybody laughed. I turned back to go to work and he left the media center. And two hours later, he was gone. Kenny, he was gone. And, you know, we had Rambo on the show on the same Vault podcast, Tony Liberati, he and his guys helped load that car back into the Petty Enterprises transporter. And to just hear Tony talk and you know, you know Tony, he's always rambunctious and loud and boisterous and all that kind of thing, but when he was talking about that, you could hear the seriousness and the emotion in his voice. That was something that really impacted not only him, but impacted me in a big way. I really and truly think that my time, full time in nascar, the fuse was lit that day for me getting out of the sport full time. And, you know, so before that day, I had seen working for Winston cup scene as this galley G whiz. I get paid to go to races. This is the most awesome thing. And then reality struck me right between the eyes that day. So that was a day that will always impact me. Now, of the five drivers we lost during that, those two years, that's the only one we lost that I was actually at the track for. I was not at the track during the 500 when Dale passed away, but I watched him from the press box the night before taking Terry Bradshaw around the racetrack in, in the pace car. And they stopped right in front of that. They stopped on the track, right the base of the press box. They got out and they celebrated like they'd won the Daytona 500. So, you know, yeah, those, those were two incredibly terrible years.

Kenny Wallace (23:12)

So I want to go to Adam Petty and then we'll move on to Kenny Irwin, Tony roper, Dale senior Bla Alexander on May 1st. This May 1st, I will be on the Kyle Petty charity ride along with my wife and about 100, 300 other people, basically by the time you put us all together. Kyle Petty is a wonderful soul. He's a lot like me. He's outspoken. But when you get down to it, Kyle's face will get serious. And we're not going to forget Adam. I, I remember the big smile. I remember Adam winning the big ASA race. See, in the day, American Speed association is where Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace. Yeah, all the big boys were coming from at that time. Well, I knew that Adam Petty was going to be great when he won the ASA race out at, at I I 70 Speedway, Odessa, Missouri. Yeah, and he won that. And boy, that really made me turn my head. So he was going to be great. Just from that standpoint, I was. That day I was at home, I think I was running the Cup Series and I was at my garage. I was walking up to the house and devastating news. So what, what did we learn? I. I don't want to, you know, involve myself in the details, but just a couple more minutes on Adam. What happened? How did it happen?

Rick Houston (24:53)

From what, from what they were. From what they thought happened. Throttle hung coming off turn two and just was never able to slow down. Although Chris Hussey, who was again, who was Adam's crew chief, they said that they went back in the shed that night and were trying to replicate what had happened and they could not get the throttle to hang. And they tried everything that they could possibly think of to figure out what had actually happened and, and they could find nothing. So, you know, and I think Adam's accident, without everything else that had happened, I think it would have just been another one of those tragic racing deals. Just like Neil, just like Rodney, or just like John Nemechek who lost his life, they. They figured out what happened. They fixed that and then went on to the racetrack. And I believe everybody in the sport accepted that as an unfortunate circumstance. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just one of those racing deals. We're going to fix what we think happened and we're going to move on to the next race.

Kenny Wallace (26:07)

Okay, I want to, I want to. I want to do something and I have some strategy here. I want to go to Kenny Irwin and then after Kenny Irwin, I want to stop and I want to tell everybody my story about my fateful day right there in turn three. I know all about that turn. I know more than anybody.

Rick Houston (26:26)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (26:27)

Won the 1991 Bud 300 there at Loudoun. I know all about that corner. It destroyed my life. So hang on, everybody. Okay, so that was Adam. Now let's go to Kenny Irwin and tell me that story and then I'll tell everybody mine.

Rick Houston (26:46)

Well, again with Adam, I think Adam was, you know, a lot. Most people just saw that as a tragic incident, a one time deal, and then moved on. Well, when Kenny died and Kenny Wallace, for it to be so eerily similar to Adam's accident, I think that shook a lot of people up because his was evidently a stuck throttle as well. He went into turn three, he hit the wall. 150, 160 miles an hour. Flipped over on his, on his roof. Adam didn't flip over, but they impacted within. I mean, they couldn't have impacted more than just a few yards. And when. When that happened, I think people sat up and took notice, saw a pattern. It happened to happen to Adam. It happened to Kenny Irwin in a Cup race. So these guys are more experienced working on the cars. And when it happened, I mean, within June, July, within two months of each other, I think a lot of people were shook up. And that's when. That's when truck. That's when talk truly ramped up to a fever pitch. What are we going to do to get these cars to stop? You know, what are we going to do to get these car. The throttles to stop hanging? And more importantly, how can we lessen the impact, the severity of all these impacts? People started talking about HANS devices. Now, there were people who had HANS devices, but people started taking those things way more serious. And the HANS device at that point became a focal point of the controversy. And also, soft walls. You didn't see soft walls at that point. You saw concrete walls. And now I've never hit the wall. I've never hit the wall at 20 miles an hour, much less 200. So I'm assuming that the impact is great. But.

Kenny Wallace (29:09)

I want to introduce something to the conversation. The great Ricky Craven, my dear friend. Yeah, he said it years ago, and then here over the last couple days. I don't know why, but I don't know what the timing is here. I think it's a coincidence. Ricky Craven gave one of the great quotes of all time about safety. He said, one day we all will look back and realize just how barbaric we all were if we made a mistake, we smashed into a concrete wall.

Rick Houston (29:36)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (29:37)

And Ricky really, you know, he smashed into a concrete wall coming off a turn four at Texas and, you know, destroyed his NASCAR career. But yes. Okay, keep on going about Kenny Irwin.

Rick Houston (29:50)

Well, I will say I do want to respond to the Ricky Craven quote. I would have thought as a reporter, you're not really supposed to assume things, but you do get hunches or whatever. And I went to Ricky and I asked him, I said, you know, you were.

Kenny Wallace (30:08)

You.

Rick Houston (30:09)

Your career, just like you said, was. Was very seriously impacted by your wreck. And Kenny, he said that he felt like he couldn't be a spokesman for safety advancements because he said this was the year 2000. He was looking for a ride. So he could not step forward and say, hey, I had a head injury. It's greatly impacted my career. Instead, he kind of took a backseat. And so that was the mentality in the garage at that time you could not say what was going on with yourself.

Kenny Wallace (30:48)

I think it ended when Dale Jr. You know, it, man, it is, it is so sad to say everybody can wreck, everybody can get killed, but when Superman gets killed, now it's now it's now it's a serious subject. And when we lost Dale Senior, we, he did not die in vain. And, and when Dale Jr. Said, okay, look everybody, this is really hard for me to say, but I drove with a concussion. I was all messed up. When Dale Jr. Said that the sport stood still for a little bit. And I'm, I've seen some of these in car videos. Come, Dale Jr. Hit that wall coming off a turn four at Fontana, California. And, and he immediately said, oh, help me, help me, help me. And it was agonizing. It was so I just, it's crazy. All these years later. I just saw it about five days ago now. I don't, I think it's because of the Daytona 500. So Ricky Craven talks about barbaric concrete walls. Dale Senior passes away. We, we start getting safer. Dale Jr. Says, okay, don't be embarrassed. And then NASCAR starts scanning our brains to, you know, have something to compare to. And that was Dale Jr. Because Dale Jr. Was famous enough.

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Rick Houston (33:38)

To that point. You know, Kenny Irwin, he was seen as this young up and coming driver. He was seen as the next coming of either Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart because he was out of open wheel. He had, he had done phenomenally in open wheel. He had the same kind of resume before NASCAR than they did. And you know, certainly he had struggled at the cup level, had moved from Robert Yates Racing to Sabco. He was in his first year with Sabco, but when we lost him again in the same kind of circumstances, it was a big deal. And then at Texas in October, we lost Tony Roper also to a basal skull fracture. So all these big impacts were being made and it was just, it was a lot, it was a lot of circumstances that fell into place at the same time. And I do want to, I do want to say this and I'll probably get myself in trouble, but that's okay. I'm good at getting myself in trouble. You said earlier that Dale Earnhardt was pushing the Hans device and he was pushing safer barriers.

Kenny Wallace (34:58)

And so Jeff Burton was. Okay, Jeff Burton. Jeff Burton went to. I was there, I was racing. And we were in the garage area at Daytona and everybody started gathering around and there was word in the garage area. Look at Jeff Burton's car. It had this big old monstrous seat. And we're like, what is he doing? And you know, we just had Jeff Burton on Kenny Conversation. He's been on a couple times. And we talk about that moment when Jeff Burton was the first one to do the full containment scene. He was not the first one to do the Hans, but you know, just little by little we get safer and safer and safer, all because of deaths.

Rick Houston (35:44)

Well, here's my response. Yes, there were advancements being made and there were advancements that were on the way. But Dale Earnhardt led the pack when it came to the old school response to all these newfangled ideas that were coming in. And of all the interviews over the course of my career that I would have loved to have been in because it would have been such a powerful moment. My boss, Tom Jensen was in. The meeting was in the small little press gathering. Dale had J.R. rhodes to pick out four of the most influential riders at the time. Brought him into the truck and he proceeded to cut loose. And that's where the famous, you know, if the drivers think they're going too fast, they can just tie a kerosene rag around their candy asses so ants don't crawl up their legs and, you know, bite their candy asses. That's where that quote came from. He was not going to wear a HANS device. Absolutely, positively was not going to wear a HANS device. He was not going to wear a full face helmet. He was going to sit in a seat that had been set. That had been placed exactly the same for 20 years, 15 years. He was not going to change his. The way he did things inside his race car. Now, if it had been anybody else in the sport, NASCAR would have said, you know what? We hear you. We understand you, but this is the way that. This is the way it's going to be. You wear that HANS device or you don't race. And they could not say that to Dale Earnhardt.

Kenny Wallace (37:36)

Hold on, let me interrupt you, because Dale Senior said, if you make me change seats and I get killed in that seat, I'm gonna sue your asses. Yeah, that was. That was what he said. And everybody in the world. It wasn't even private. So, yes, this is all true. And it was public knowledge. It wasn't even behind closed doors. Yes, it's a sad time. There were a lot of mistakes made.

Rick Houston (38:06)

Well, I will also say this. Brett Bodine, that I can understand now, Adam. Kyle Petty had a Hans. An early version of the Hans device, and he tried it out in the early 90s, and it looked like this great big monstrosity of a thing.

Kenny Wallace (38:22)

Halo.

Rick Houston (38:23)

A big old halo. Crazy. But Brett Bodin was the first to wear the. What we now know as the current version, or at least close to it, in competition. And from what Brett Bodine said, when Dale Earnhardt saw him in the garage with this thing, he called him a pussy.

Kenny Wallace (38:46)

Yeah, so those were the days, my friend. You know, you were a badass until it really happens. Well, okay, it's time for me to say this. You know, I have a small amount of Tourette's. A lot of people will see me doing this throughout my whole career. This subject matter hits a nerve for me, and here's why. Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin got killed in turn one. I was leading the 1991 Busch Grand National Championship over Bobby Lamani. I'm gonna win it. I got a pretty good point lead. I go flying down into turn one. My left rear suspension breaks. I go spinning around. I hit driver's side, and my head comes out and hits the B pillar and the wall. I get out of the car. Safety worker says, kenny, will you please lay down here? We'll wait for the ambulance. I lay down and I. I knew I was at home sleeping. I'm just sleeping so good, and all of a sudden I wake up and I realize I'm laying flat on the asphalt at Loudon, New Hampshire, and I had what was called a positional vertigo. I lost the championship. Now I. I seek the sports therapy for it. It destroyed my life because I would have been a champion. Okay? Now, when Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin got killed in the exact same spot that. That happened to me, I looked at the Lord and I said, lord.

Rick Houston (40:34)

You.

Kenny Wallace (40:34)

Know, we had a little discussion. Now, I want to give my opinion on that corner. When we go down that corner, there's an elevation drop. You go down, you go down the back. Straight away at Loudon, and turn three is way different than turn one. Turn one, you just kind of go in the corner. Turn three, you go, go. And then the track immediately drops off. So when you're applying brake, if you have a left front shock that's got a lot of rebound, what happens? The car, the. The. The tire comes up, and when the brake is applied, you will smoke the left front brake. We saw it a lot. Then you have to take your left foot and you have to pulsate it. You got to control it. But a lot of deep breaths, like, you know, the car just took off because you're on the brake. The car won't stop because the left front tower is not on the ground. Turn three, one of the most dangerous corners in NASCAR history at Loudon. When I go up there and do trackside live to this day, Rick, I have, you know, we had my biggest fan base up there. I won the bud 300. But I want to let everybody know that that corner two destroyed me, and I made my comeback. I won Martinsville. But, oh, my God, you talk about destroying my life and, you know, Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, like you, I was talking to Kenny Irwin, and we're both in the Cup Series. Hey, Kenny. And he gets in his car and he's dead five minutes later. Yeah, okay, I'm done.

Rick Houston (42:15)

Kenny, that's. That's at least the third different time I've heard that story. The first time you told it to me was in 1999 when I was working on my book, Second to None, the History of the Bush Series. You were on the podcast, the same Vault podcast, two or three years ago. You told that story then and now you've told it here and all three times. I can see the emotion and the sincerity in your face and in your voice. Now, I will say this. Your life was not destroyed in turn three at New Hampshire.

Kenny Wallace (42:54)

Yes, you're right.

Rick Houston (42:56)

You've got grandkids. How many grandkids you got?

Kenny Wallace (42:58)

Now six.

Rick Houston (43:01)

Six my grand. My grandma and grandpa did not act like Kenny Wallace. They were old folks. You ain't old. You're still racing.

Kenny Wallace (43:09)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (43:09)

And, and I'm not saying that to blow smoke. That plaque, that YouTube plaque behind you. Yeah, I would, I would give anything for that plaque.

Kenny Wallace (43:20)

Right.

Rick Houston (43:20)

I'll make the, I'll make you an offer now. Let's try, let's trade subscriber bases, you.

Kenny Wallace (43:26)

Know, and, and it, it take. Listen, my mama does this to me. She would say, my mom calls me Ken. My mom would say, Ken Hun. I know you didn't get what you wanted out of your NASCAR career. However, later in life, you're getting your due. I appreciate that, Rick. And you're right, you know, I, I guess I'm wrapped up in this moment right now.

Rick Houston (43:48)

Oh yeah.

Kenny Wallace (43:49)

I'm in this bubble. You're bringing back horrible memories for me. Yeah. And it is therapeutic for me. Well, okay.

Rick Houston (43:58)

And I do, and I do want to say this about Earnhardt. In his defense, he wasn't just some crotchety veteran driver who wouldn't change for anything. If you go back and look, he had walked away from some just crazy accidents. You know, he hit the wall at Talladega, the car caught on fire. I remember being at the infield care center. He came out, he was, I mean he was just swathed in burn. He'd gotten burnt, singed a little bit. But also that's the accident in which he broke his sternum. And you know, so he had walked away from some serious crashes. And what he had in his car safety wise had worked. And so to his credit, if it works, why bother? Why change it? But you know, you have your Jeff Burtons of the world and your Brett Bodine's of the world who were pitching this other stuff. You got to at least listen to him.

Kenny Wallace (45:00)

And to this day, Jeff Burton, when we talk, like I said, we've had Kenny conversation two times. Jeff Burton is in charge of, you know, he represents the drivers. To this day, Jeff Burton goes to the racetracks, walks with NASCAR executives and they look at areas.

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Kenny Wallace (46:43)

Okay, let's put it back on the rails here. Okay, so Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, same corner. I just, you know, I hurt my career there. Okay, Tony Roper from Missouri. Let's talk about Tony.

Rick Houston (47:01)

I had a special place in my heart for Tony and his wife Michelle. They were just good folks. They were just like me. They were just every everyday ordinary folks. He just happened to be a race car driver. I remember distinctly going into the year 2000, he was looking for a ride and he called me in the Winston cup scene office. I know exactly where I was. I was sitting in my little cubicle at the Winston cup scene offices. And Tony called and he said, man, I'm looking. And he called me from out of blue. He was not responding to me. He called me from out of the blue and just said, have you heard of anybody that needs a driver? And so, I mean, that's how passionate he was about this kind of thing. And he and his wife Michelle, they were wanting to have kids. She helped strap him into the race car and she joked about protecting the family jewels when he got strapped in and everything.

Kenny Wallace (48:05)

Crotch belts were a big deal. So you're protecting your private area.

Rick Houston (48:08)

Yeah, yeah. And then everything happens with. Well, it was actually kind of crazy. He was involved in an accident, as I mentioned before. He was. He got tangled up with Carrie Earnhardt, who of course is the oldest son of Dale Earnhardt.

Kenny Wallace (48:25)

Right.

Rick Houston (48:26)

Also involved in that accident was the Petty Enterprises truck of Steve Grissom. So for those, for those three to come together like that in that moment, you know, that was just, that was Just kind of eerie. But when the year, when the year 2000 ended, I think people were relieved that it was over. I think that there were a lot of people paying a lot more attention to safety. Dale was going to do his thing. Everybody else was going to do theirs. He was going to go his own way like he always did. And so then we get to February 18, 2001.

Kenny Wallace (49:09)

Yeah. So Tony Roper from Missouri, I went to his funeral. Mike Helton was there. You know, comes from a rich family, racing history. I'm just giving my point of view with Tony, you know, 100 miles up the road here. You know, Dale Dean Roper, great Missouri racers. It was exciting for us, the Wallaces, to see the Ropers come on down. You. Because you, you know, listen, it's just the way it was. You know, maybe Terry Bivens from Shawnee Mission, Kansas. We go way back. You know, he goes to Daytona, then. Then the Wallace brothers come down, then the Schraders, you know, then Jamie McMurray, then Carl Edwards, and then Tony Roper, or Tony was actually before Carl and maybe Jamie. But it was exciting for me to see Tony Roper come down. It was a horrible tragedy and a tough wreck. And now I must say, at this time now, boy, we, you know, in the, in the, in this, you know, we're not in chronological order here, but I mean, we really need these soft walls now because it's the wall that's killing the people, you know, and it's collectively, we know that, you know, the seat belts, the seat. But, boy, if we could just hit a soft wall, that's really. And, you know, for years, you know, they've quit doing it a lot. But, you know, when we would watch the big wrecks at Atlanta, right, You know, Fox Sports would go, oh, my God, look at this soft wall, this safer barrier. Look at what it's doing its job. But boy, Tony Roper, I mean, that would have really.

Rick Houston (50:53)

Oh, you know, in, in NASCAR's defense, a lot, again, a lot of people were pointing a lot of fingers at NASCAR at the time. Why didn't they just go ahead and put soft walls up? Well, when they tried the software concept at Indy, Arian Dyke hit the, hit what they called the softwall. And I think it was narca, not an arca, an Iraq race. And Kenny, that thing, that thing shot, put it him back on the racetrack into oncoming traffic. So, you know, it was, it wasn't as easy as, let's just throw up some walls. And now everybody will walk away from real Bad accidents. They had to test this stuff out. And that was a process. So I remember that, actually. Yeah, far be it for me to ever take up for nascar, but in this case in particular, they were between a rock and a hard place. Yes, the changes were needed, and they saw changes that could be needed, that could be made. But at the same time, you had the sports most successful driver at the time, most influential driver at the time, said, I ain't doing nothing. So this between a rock and a hard place. That hard place was Earnhardt, and you weren't going to change him. So what do you do?

Kenny Wallace (52:16)

So, wow. Okay. Yeah. And this. This is a tough. But, you know, I would say when I was in grade school, you know, I didn't know anything. I was dumb. I tell my teacher, I'm like, why do I need to know about history? And my history teacher would say, because history repeats itself. So if my Charlie Marlo, who's running this YouTube account right now, if he's going to edit out anything, if he's going to edit, you know, something, I would say this. NASCAR is a dangerous sport. And this is the segment that pains me to say this. I was in the Fox TV meeting like we always did every morning, and we had one of our executives come in, and he sat all of us down, all of us, and he says, okay, look, he Sundays, we're losing TV ratings because people tune in to see people die, and by God, we're not hurting anybody anymore. And we want you all to go on TV and we want you to remind everybody that this is a dangerous sport. Now, what's sad is I just saw this over the weekend again. There is this thought that if we kill people, it's going to make the sport exciting again. I think that's absolutely asinine, because history repeats itself. And we. Listen, you don't want to become dumber. But when that Fox Sports executive said, remind everybody that the sport is dangerous, damn it, we're not killing anybody anymore, I looked at him in awe. I'm like, oh, my God.

Rick Houston (54:06)

I.

Kenny Wallace (54:06)

You know, 1991, I about ruined my life. We lost all these drivers. But in a good way, though. I do. I did. I understood what he was saying. He was saying that some of the appeal is that this is dangerous, and people would watch because NASCAR's dangerous. And, oh, my God, we saw some of those catastrophic wrecks back in the day.

Rick Houston (54:27)

Kenny, to hear you, to hear you verbalize that, you always consider, you know, the. The Ivory tower. Yeah, you always consider something like that happen. But to hear it come out of your mouth that that actually happened.

Kenny Wallace (54:49)

Oh, yeah.

Rick Houston (54:50)

Well, I can assure you that that Fox executive has never known anybody who actually strapped into a race car.

Kenny Wallace (54:59)

They're producers and executives and.

Rick Houston (55:02)

And I just. You know, and maybe that's why racing at Daytona and Talladega is the way that it is today. I made this comment yesterday on social media. You know, this time 25 years ago, we were fighting a war. The industry was fighting a war with itself over safety because drivers were getting killed.

Kenny Wallace (55:25)

Right.

Rick Houston (55:26)

And now the Daytona 500 is nothing more than. Than a 200 lap demolition derby waiting to happen.

Kenny Wallace (55:34)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (55:35)

And, you know, I don't know what the answer is. You know, you hear a lot of people say, just take the restrictor plates off and let real men be real men and race like they used to let.

Kenny Wallace (55:47)

We'd fly into the grandstands.

Rick Houston (55:49)

Yeah. And then we would have a whole different problem. And so I just. Yeah. To hear you say that that actually happened, it truly pisses me off.

Kenny Wallace (56:01)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (56:03)

But that's also why I think somebody somewhere needs to continue ringing the bail on safety and how the past really did happen. It wasn't just a nightmare. Five drivers died. However many children were left without fathers. Five husbands or five wives were left without husbands. And so, yeah, there's. Yeah, that.

Kenny Wallace (56:36)

Okay.

Rick Houston (56:36)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (56:37)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (56:39)

You got me triggered, son.

Kenny Wallace (56:41)

Well, it's just.

Rick Houston (56:42)

It is.

Kenny Wallace (56:43)

You know, I mean, listen, I hate to say it. I was in TV for 14 years. I worked for Fox Sports. I mean, it's just common knowledge. You know, there's a lot of things in life we think is a secret, and it's not a secret. You know, Dale Earnhardt Senior. Listen, he screamed from the top of the roof. He told nascar, you make me change my seat and I get hurt. And nobody loved Dale Senior more than me. I mean, he gave me my very first ride. I'm the biggest. And listen, I'm going to be honest about this. I will not watch any Dale Senior Story movie because it crushes me. I could cry. I. I can't watch it. I can't keep celebrating. I can't keep watching those movies over and over, over every year. I mean, it's, It's. It's horrible. Okay, so we've talked about Dale Senior.

Rick Houston (57:35)

All right.

Kenny Wallace (57:36)

Blaze Alexander is our. Our fifth driver.

Rick Houston (57:41)

Blaze, of course, had come up into the Busch series. He had driven for Sabco, a couple other teams. He had actually signed a deal to drive the number 26 Dr. Pepper car for team owner Dave Carroll. And he Got in a, he got in an accident. And Jimmy Johnson, as I mentioned earlier, Jimmie Johnson was a good friend of Blazes. And they had talked about just before Jimmy went to pit road, just before the start of the race and you know, was kind of helping Blaze into the car. And from what Jimmy said, Blaze's car was not up to speed when it came to safety. Yeah, you know, he, he said, he said he would not have gotten into it, you know, for whatever reason. I guess the seat belts were raggedy or whatever. I don't know.

Kenny Wallace (58:33)

I've learned, I've learned so much about safety, but.

Rick Houston (58:36)

Yes, yeah, but. And Jimmy had, I mean, Jimmy was literally the same day qualifying for his first cup race. So, you know, he certainly had ideas on sport, on, on safety, but he wasn't the seven time champion. He wasn't the, the go to voice. So you know, Blaze, that he and Blaze basically, he said Blaze basically laughed it off and you know, got in his car and you know, like you.

Kenny Wallace (59:03)

Say, that's the way we were back then.

Rick Houston (59:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kenny Wallace (59:07)

But it pains me to say this. It really, really does. Back in the glory days, Dale Earnhardt Senior said what we all said, damn it, you know, you're, you're a, you know, get out there and then what would happen? You know, somebody'd get hurt and you just put another driver in. But when they got killed, that was a game changer.

Rick Houston (59:34)

Well, I'm going, I'm going to drop one, I'm going to drop one on you right now. Dylan Hart was always, he was infamous for saying, take the restrictor plates off.

Kenny Wallace (59:42)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (59:44)

Dale Earnhardt was a better race car driver at Daytona in Talladega with the restrictor plates than he was without them. He never, he, he won one race at Talladega before the restrictor plates. Of course, he had never won at Daytona with the restrictor plates. I wish, I wish I thought to have these numbers pulled up his qualifying race streak.

Kenny Wallace (60:17)

Yeah, seven in a row or something like that.

Rick Houston (60:20)

No, 10. He won. He won every qualifying race in the 1990s after the restrictor plate.

Kenny Wallace (60:27)

Let's remind everybody, the reason we got the restrictor plate is because Bobby Allison blew a motor going through the travel at Talladega and everything was flying into the grandstands trying to. Then, then, you know, then we, we kept flying into the grandstands at the travel Daytona and then finally we started coming up with the curved fences and putting the seats away. Listen, everybody, this is just, you know, we're just the discovery of, you know, we're talking about the past, and you got to talk about it. You can't ignore it. You can't sweep it under the rug. If we're going to celebrate Dale Senior every year, we got to talk about why and what happened.

Rick Houston (61:05)

Yeah. And I will tell you this story about Blaze, and it's not something I'm proud of, but, Kenny, I think you have known me long enough to know that I'm not the guy who's going to be bouncing off the walls in the media center. I'm not the one who's going to be drawing attention to myself in the media center. I'm not the loud, boisterous one. But the day after Blaze was killed, that was on a. I believe it was on Wednesday night. On Thursday, I was at the racetrack, got there early, got set up in that old media center. And one of the longtime reporters, everybody knew him, everybody knew who he was. He came into the media center, and he proceeds to start just holding court, just bellowing at the top of his lungs, oh, Billy Francis killed another one. I don't know what we're gonna have to do. I just. And he was. Kenny, he was laughing about it.

Kenny Wallace (62:04)

Oh, my God.

Rick Houston (62:05)

He was not taking this seriously at all. And the next thing I know, we're across the room from each other. Next thing I know, I'm screaming at him from the top of my voice and I'm calling him. Everything in the book, I was saying words I didn't know I knew. And I mean, that's one of two times in my life that I can. I mean, it was honestly like I was outside myself looking at this scene that was unfolding. It's one of two times in my life that I've just completely lost control. And I mean, it was just, you know, I'm a Christian. I go to church. I was not a deacon yet, but I became a deacon not long afterward. I don't know if you knew this. I'm a licensed minister, but in those few moments, I. I lost my Jesus.

Kenny Wallace (63:07)

Yeah.

Rick Houston (63:07)

And. And that.

Kenny Wallace (63:08)

And we all need Jesus. We get off the rails. We need somebody to bring us in.

Rick Houston (63:14)

I tell you what, it was. I think that was just the boil over from those two years. I mean, that had been bottled up. I mean, that was. That tirade was probably. Had been. Probably had been brewing since New Hampshire when Adam died. But I'll never forget. I mean, I got up and I, you know, went out of the. Went out of the building. One of the NASCAR PR reps walked with me out. I mean, he wouldn't escort me out. Nobody said that I had to leave or whatever.

Commercial Announcer (63:47)

But.

Rick Houston (63:50)

He patted me on the back and he said, and this is a NASCAR PR rep, because, you know, so that means that he had been pretty much in the cross hairs of every, of this whole controversy. He kind of patted me on the back and he said, Rick, you're right. That guy is an. And I mean, I'll never ever forget that. Yeah, but that, yeah, that, I think that, I think that was my cathartic experience in the whole thing.

Kenny Wallace (64:20)

Yeah, well, people react strangely to things. We'll leave it at that.

Rick Houston (64:28)

Yeah.

Kenny Wallace (64:29)

Rick, listen, I want to, I want to thank you so much and everybody. I want to remind you all that all these drivers, we knew, they were friends, but it, it, it is our history and it wasn't long ago. Rick Houston, tell us one more time about this, uh, ten episode Firestorm series.

Rick Houston (64:55)

Kenny, you know, I could talk for hours about this, but the bottom line is those five drivers died. And as a result of the changes that were made, as the result of those five losses, I'll, I will never, ever say that it was just Dale Earnhardt. I will never say that his loss was the change that was needed. Those changes were coming right in the 25 years since, not a single driver has experienced a fatal accident. That's the bottom line. And that's why I keep pounding this story.

Kenny Wallace (65:31)

Yeah. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Okay, you're looking at him, everybody. Rick Houston. The Scene Vault podcast. On February 18th, the first episode of 10 episode Firestorm series releases.

Rick Houston (65:48)

And that'll be in pot. That'll be in podcast and on YouTube.

Kenny Wallace (65:52)

So where do we go to find everything? There's the Scene Vault podcast.

Rick Houston (65:56)

The same Vault podcast is available anywhere on any, basically any podcast platform. The YouTube channel is the same Vault. So be sure and subscribe. Hit the notification buttons and maybe, maybe, just maybe, I'll get me one of those plaques in the background.

Kenny Wallace (66:14)

You will. Okay. Okay, everybody, until the next Kenny conversation. We'll see you all next time. Goodbye, everybody. Check out DirtyMome Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok and Instagram.

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