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Scott Ackerson: TV Sports Visionary
01:51:18
Buckle up for the next two hours with one of the great minds in American sports television, Scott Ackerson
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A
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A
Hello everyone and welcome back to Kenny conversation. Brought to you by i55 Federated Auto Parts Raceway park in Pele, Missouri. And remember this March 19, 2020 first is mods gone wild. $5,000 to win. Okay, deep breath everybody. I am jacked up about this one. This Kenny conversation is one that I've been wanting to do for a long time. My boss, he is retired now. The Great. Scott Ackerson. Ax, we call him. How you doing, Ax?
- [02:52]
B
I'm doing good. How you doing? Well, how'd you do last night? How'd you do last night? I know you were first, second, third, fourth, fifth. You know, just knocking them down, like, you know, picking them off. How'd you do last night? Did you get a dub?
- [03:07]
A
You know, you are a coordinating producer, one of the greatest of all time. And so that is exactly what they asked me. How'd you do last night? So last night the racing gods came in. You know, as you said, I finished first, second, third, fourth, fifth. And I thought, well, maybe I can get two wins. We were leading by two and a half seconds and we had park failure. The left rear shock broke. But we go again tonight and. But listen, Ax, it's all about you. Where are you at? Where are you living now?
- [03:44]
B
Indian Wells, California. Good course, Indian Wells. You plug stuff, I'll plug stuff too. Yeah, yeah. I, I, we, we moved out here after I retired full time and it's been great. The Coachella Valley has continued to grow. It's just very easy of life out here, especially if you like to play golf, which is what I do.
- [04:08]
A
You're good at that.
- [04:10]
B
I'm getting worse, you know, as you get up in years, you know. Yeah. But anyway, we, and so we, we've lived out here since, I guess, 2016, full time, and in the summer it gets a little hot and so we just drive around the country or go somewhere else where it's not as hot, but it's getting hot everywhere.
- [04:34]
A
When you talk like that, I think of Chichi Rodriguez who played great golf late and. Yeah, yeah, he, he'd make, he'd walk up to that ball and he wouldn't take a practice swing, he just hack it. He'd go right to the hole and he'd put that, that, you know, whatever wedge, he put it right in like a sword.
- [04:57]
B
Yeah, he was great.
- [04:59]
A
Yeah, this, he was good for golf. Okay, let's start like this, everybody. I want to introduce you all to the great Scott Ackerson. And I don't call everybody great. And there's a reason I call the man you're looking at Great Scott Ackerson, 13 time Sports Emmy winner, joined Fox the team in 1994 as the coordinating producer. Now this is the big one for Fox NFL Sunday. The man you're looking at right now, he produced five Super Bowls. He came to Fox and it was the very first hour long NFL pregame show broadcasted on the Fox network. The man you're looking at was the boss of Terry Bradshaw, Howie Long and way more. So that is my introduction. How'd I do, Ax?
- [05:58]
B
Pretty doggone good. I mean, I like the sound of all those Emmys. I was like, wow, I did some stuff. Yeah, no, look. Yeah, we. We. I got. You know, when you get to as Yogi berra, you're a St Louis guy. He was from St Louis. He played for the Yankees. So most people, you know, don't know he's necessarily from St. Louis. Anyway, when you get to a fork in the road, you take it. And that was kind of my career. And that got me to Fox, and through the help of a lot of good people, I ended up there and then had a blast.
- [06:34]
A
And we're going to get there. And. And the great thing about Kenny Conversation is this isn't network produced. Like. Like you were part of.
- [06:42]
B
We.
- [06:42]
A
We can go every which way because that's what we do at Kenny Conversation. I want to go back. You were born in Ridley Township, Pennsylvania. You're raised in Ohio. And I like what I read, it said Pennsylvania born and Ohio raised. Let's start right there. Tell me about your early days.
- [07:06]
B
Well, in Pennsylvania, I basically just came out of the chute and that was it. You know, I didn't get to hang out. I was just outside of Philly. Wasn' long enough to go there. And then we had a quick stop in Rochester, New York, and then we. My family, my dad, my mom, they settled in Columbus, Ohio, and was there for. From basically four years old until I graduated college, which was in 1982 at, like, I think I was 22 at the time. Yeah, I was 22 at the time. And it was a great place to grow up. Columbus, Ohio. Back then, I lived in just outside a place called Hilliard, which back then our high school, I think, had a total of 800 students. And now there are three high schools in that area with 3400 students in each school. It's ridiculous, right?
- [08:10]
A
Time. Time goes and things get bigger. And I. I always find it odd that sometimes people think that people that get in great positions, they were just put in that position. But when I look at your life, you started at, you know, one of your tenures was WBNS Local Radio in 1981 and Columbus, Ohio. And it seems like a lot of people in your business, I mean, you. You started at the lowest level. What was it like? You know, did you have a vision? Did you know where you wanted to go, or were you just along for the ride?
- [08:48]
B
I, I wanted to go into news. That was my. That's why I went to Ohio University for journalism. And I had an internship at WBS radio. And it was very, you know, very basic, but it was great because it was much better than doing an internship in television. Because an internship in television, you're basically going to rip some scripts and get some coffee for people. That's, that's kind of, you know, there's not a lot that you're going to do production wise. When I went to. And I had a. I was up for two internships, one at the television and one at the radio station. And fortunately I got the radio. I got to do everything. I got to interview people. I remember doing an interview covering Barbara Bush when she was the first lady. Now, most people would go, you know, whatever. It's the. But, you know, when you're a first time, you know, starting out in the business, getting to do a barbarous news conference and then coming back and telling the reporters because they were, you know, on the air at the time as well, because radio is not a lot of help. Yeah. So that type of stuff. I was responsible for the consumer price checks in Columbus for the radio station. So I would go to the grocery store and I'd have my 15 items and every week, every two weeks, I would check what the item was and then what it was, two weeks, and then do the percentages of the math and, you know, there would be the story. So I got to do a lot of practical stuff that I never would have gotten the chance had I gone to television, which I knew I wanted to do. And once I did some on air stuff very poorly in a place called woub, which was the college station in, in Athens. And if you were to actually find that tape, it makes the Albert Brooks wedding scene in the movie where he's the reporter look tame because instead of a powder base, I put an oil base on. And while it looked great, when I went out there under the lights, I'm like melting, it's sweating and doing all this stuff. Anyway, I realized I wanted to be a producer because being a producer, you kind of shaped the show. You, for lack of. I'll give you a story about when I was back in Ohio and I was visiting a buddy of mine's house and his dad was there. You know, dads are. They're leaning back and chilling.
- [11:50]
A
He goes, yeah.
- [11:51]
B
He goes, so, Scott, what do you. What are you doing now? I go, well, I'm up in Minneapolis and I'm producing, you know, weekend Local news and doing, you know, some fill in as well during the week. He goes, producing. So what is that? I go, well, you, I just kind of decide what stories go where and then I write, you know, the lead ins for the anchors and I write the bumps and decide the time for stories. And he goes, so you decide what goes on there? I go, yeah, myself and couple. But yeah, I, I decide what goes in the show and where. He goes, so it's the news according to you. And I never really thought about it. I was like, yeah. And that's also when I realized that the amount of influence that one person can have, which as a producer, that's for better or for worse. You want to do stuff that hopefully people like and want to watch. But my philosophy was I'm going to do the show that I want to watch and at least if I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail on because it was my fault, I didn't want to be, I was never, and you know me well enough, I was never a finger pointer. And I hated people who pointed fingers. I hated it when, well, I, you know, person X, you know, didn't do something or person Y, I'm like, well then maybe you should have had a better conversation with them beforehand and they would have done it right. And so I producing and I can be a buddy of mine goes, you're kind of a type A personality, aren't you? He met it in a way that, yeah, I like to, I, I like to be in control of things for the shows. I don't want to, I don't want to say, well, my boss told me to do this or, you know, person over here told me to do this. So for better, for worse, that's how I did television. And that's what at the beginning, getting back to WBNs, that's what it kind of showed me is working in radio, the local reporters. Jim Vic, I'm sure he's passed away by now, he was a really good reporter. He would tell me, you know, look, you, your name is on this. Regardless of whether I'm doing it, it's your name, you know, so take ownership, have pride. And I, I, that's what I did.
- [14:59]
A
I, I want to come back to that because in my notes, I, I say is coordinating tv, all about psychology, reading into other people's mind, you know, what was your angle on coordinating? Now I want to let that stew for a little bit. We're going to get back to that. But I want to get you out of Ohio and as you said, you had a tenure up in Minnesota. How does that happen? How do you leave Ohio and go to Minnesota? Does somebody call you? You leave Ohio, go to Minnesota?
- [15:35]
B
No, no, I didn't, I didn't go directly to Minnesota. How it happened when you're back in the day, when, you know, cable, there wasn't a lot of cables, there certainly wasn't YouTube, there wasn't that. You basically went through the local ranks. My goal was to be a news producer in Columbus, Ohio. That was my goal, you know, so I couldn't just start out as a producer in Columbus, Ohio, as a top 30 market. So I moved around and the first place that I, I mentioned woub and there was another station where I did a weekend producing was wowk in Huntington, West Virginia. So two days I would be down there making $50 a day, 50 bucks a day, and then I would work at WOUB and make nothing for that week. It was just, it was college. So it's a hundred dollars that I really was making and fortunately not a lot, but I got a little supplementing from my parents. Just enough to be able to pay rent and have macaroni and cheese and stuff. Yeah, so I didn't, I never worried about what the job paid. It was more about what the opportunity was. And so I worked at wowk and then within two months I got laid off and actually asked the welcome news.
- [17:05]
A
As brother Rusty would say, welcome to the big time.
- [17:10]
B
So I asked the news director at the time, I was like, why'd you hire me if you're going to lay me off two months later? And she goes, well, I didn't know. And you know, as I found out in the corporate world a lot of times you don't know, especially if it comes down from the management. And that was Gateway Communications. I don't believe they exist anymore. Anyway, she goes, I like you a lot. So she was in charge of the corporate news for the Gateway Communications and they had small stations in Binghamton, New York, Altoona, Pennsylvania, which is where I ended up going. So I went to Altoona, Pennsylvania for producing the six and eleven o' clock news. I think I was making 7,500. And then after three months I would get a raise of to make it 8,600 for year, producing the 6 and 11 o' clock news every night. So that's a 12 hour job. I mean, you just don't show up at, you know, 3 o' clock and produce the news. You, you work from 12 to essentially 12 and you don't worry about it. At least I never did. I know other people look at the time clock and that's fine. That's their prerogative. But that was never my. So from there, and you ask about getting phone calls. The sports guy, he was trying to get out and he wanted to go on to basically Albany, where I think he ended up going by the name of Roger Weiland. Anyway, he was fortunate enough to tell me, told his headhunter about me as a producer. And I got a call then to go to San Antonio, Texas. I went to San Antonio, Texas and did an interview. The best thing that I did was learn how to produce the county's name, which is spelled B E X A R. Now, you know, if you're a generic white guy from Ohio, you look at that and many people would look at it as a Bexar.
- [19:37]
A
Right?
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B
Well, it's pronounced Bear County.
- [19:39]
A
Bear.
- [19:40]
B
And so by doing that, they. The person that interviewed me said, okay, this person's serious. And bam. I went down there. And while I was doing the 6 and 11, there I was back to producing weekends and doing entertainment type of pieces. Like, if Anthony Quinn is coming in for to do the production of Zorba, then we would have. We would sit down and do an interview with him. Same thing with Richard Harris, who was. I forget which performance he was doing. So I moved again because it was a bigger market. I went from Altoono, which was probably in the 90s, to San Antonio. At the time, that was 45. Well, in San Antonio. And you know, fate has it, you meet people, so on and so forth. I met a producer at a Joe King Carrasco concert who used to work at the station. She was in Tampa. And then she went up to. And she was dating our assignment producer or whatever. So she saw me produce, like what she saw. She went to kare, which wasn't KARE at the time, it was W usa. And then the Washington station was owned by Gannett, wanted to take those call letters. So then they became K A R E. But that's an aside. Anyway, she convinced her bosses to, you know, give me an interview. I went up there, did an interview, and they like what they heard. And so I went up there to produce weekends and stuff like that. And then from there I went to espn.
- [21:36]
A
Okay, let's stop right there. I want to let everybody know that wants to do what you're doing. There's a lot of people that want to be in tv, they want to be in radio. Your journey, what you just explained, you. You had to be Willing to pick up and move. I mean basically I lost count. But it sounds to me like you were all over the United States and.
- [22:01]
B
I was north, south, east, west. By the time I didn't get to the west yet I was in Texas. But you're, you're absolutely right. This all happened in about a four year, less than four year period where I was there for nine months, got a job offer, boom, left and I wasn't married at the time so that made it easier to pick up and go. But I was never if you, if opportunity is there, take it is the only way I can describe it. And I never, I never got out of pad and wrote down pluses and minuses. This job's this and this job's that and I know people do that and it helped them do make decision stuff and that's fine for me it was a gut instinct all the time.
- [22:54]
A
Do you think, and I know this is cliche. Do you think back in our day that we, we just went and done and did in compared today, do you think people try to be too efficient? So another years ago I felt like we made mistakes on our journey. Do you feel like today people try to be perfect?
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, I, I, I don't know if it's trying to be perfect. It's trying to I need for the right opportunity. I'll give you a perfect example. When I was in college, one of my roommate, we had you know, six in a pot or whatever and then we had shared a, and then we shared, you know, four of us shared an apartment and he was by far and away the best and the smartest and you know his great writer is our valedictorian. Anyway, he had a job offer at CNN. This is when CNN was just starting and 10,000 a year and he's like no, I'm not doing it. And I'm like dude, cnn, we watched cnn.
- [24:15]
A
It was the only network I'm worth.
- [24:16]
B
I'm worth more than $10,000 now. You might be but you're not to that organization yet.
- [24:29]
A
And I agree.
- [24:30]
B
I, and so, and so he, unfortunately I believe he, he didn't really, he didn't work in the business. Never really got it because you're not worth anything until you prove what you're worth. And people, I don't want to say you know, the younger generation or Gen Z because it was happened I just gave an example from 1982 where somebody who I thought was very good and certainly light years smarter than me did was turn it down because it wasn't the right, the money wasn't right. Rather than, I need my foot in the door, I'm going to show people what I can do, and then once I get my foot in the door, I'll make more money. That's the way. That's what my parents taught me. It's, don't just take the opportunity. And if you're good at what you do, everything comes with that. And I think I'm a perfect example. I left at 55, and I'm enjoying life.
- [25:40]
A
Yeah, I. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. My mom and dad, especially my father, you know, and I just watched this special on Netflix about Elway, you know, playing his whole career in the NFL and, you know, ended up getting a divorce over. But it drove him crazy to get those two Super Bowls. And one thing he said, you know, John Elway said, is, you know, my father, my upbringing was on purpose to do everything the hard way. And, boy, that just stuck with me about three, maybe a month ago. And I thought my dad was born in the, you know, late 30s. And it just seemed like us Wallaces, if it was. If you could do it the easy way, it's like, hell, no, we're not doing it the easy way. We're going to suffer. And it seems to me that you came up in that generation, you did it the hard way.
- [26:38]
B
Did.
- [26:39]
A
Do you feel like you did it the hard way, or did you do it the right way?
- [26:48]
B
I wouldn't say it was the right way. I would say it was my way. I don't know if there's a right way or a wrong way. It's just the way it worked out for me.
- [26:57]
A
Your journey?
- [26:58]
B
Yeah, my journey. If you think about your father and my father. My father was born in 1928. Your father was born. And think of what they saw.
- [27:10]
A
Yeah. Depression or, you know, war.
- [27:14]
B
I mean, it was world war, and then they went on to another war, and you went into the army, you had. And so your job was to suck it up. Okay. Realistically, you know, and I know we've had the Iraq war, whatever. And. And I don't say whatever in a disparaging way. It's like the United States really hasn't had anything that has mobilized an entire country. Okay. To deal with sacrifice. You know, our sacrifice wasn't the same as our parents sacrifice, which wasn't the same as their parents sacrifice. And life has gotten easier now.
- [27:59]
A
No doubt.
- [28:00]
B
I agree. And by getting easier, it generally will make people softer. That's just, you know. And so you talk about the easy way. And I don't think it's anything that consciously people younger or whatever are doing. It's just the fact that their life has been pretty damn good. They, they grew up with having a phone, you know, having communications rather than, okay, you're, you're not the oldest in the family. I know that your brother Rusty and Mike and, and you had to fight for your, you had to fight for your air time on the phone if you wanted to use the phone because you were like fifth or six in line, one with one cord. And you know, that was, and there was, you know, back then, there wasn't a beep to say, hey, I got another call on the phone. It was, so you got a busy single. And so anyway, it was just different. And being different, you just, you just went with it.
- [29:15]
A
I like, no, I, I, I like that you went there. It's not the new generation's fault. America has become easier and that, that is technology.
- [29:32]
B
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- [29:48]
A
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B
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- [30:16]
A
Edu. All right, everybody, here we are. We're almost a half hour into it and we're, and we're going to get Axe out of radio. Okay, it's 1987 and you're going to ESPN. Now to me, when I look at this now, you've entered the big time. Did you feel like when you went to espn, did you feel in your mind you were entering the big time? Tell me about going to espn.
- [30:49]
B
Well, when I went to espn, it certainly wasn't the big time. They had no NFL. Oh, they didn't have baseball. They just lost the NBA. The only thing they really had was college sports. Australian Rules Football. For those who know Australian Rules football, you'll get that reference. I don't have the white hat to be able to do that. But it wasn't the big time in Fact, there was some people at, you know, in Minneapolis who were like, you're leaving a top 15 market to go to a cable entity that just lost the NBA, has no major sports. And again, I go with gut feelings. And I've got a bigger gut than the last time you saw me, Kenny.
- [31:41]
A
But we all do.
- [31:43]
B
I just felt that cable was the future and I wanted to do sports. I love sports. I could talk sports. I spent more time in the newsroom with the sports guys than I did with the news guys. Even though I produced the news, I loved, I just love sports. And so when I first got espn, it was not what it is today. It's not the behemoth that it was today is today. It was a lot more freeing though. You had flexibility. There wasn't corporate. If you wanted to try something, you did it. That's where my line, get over it. It's on its way to Pluto. You can't change it. The signal's already going, it's going on. Think about the next show, think about the next segment, whatever that is. You can't. Live television is great and it's also a curse because when you're in an edit bay, you can fix the problem. When you're on live television, you have a problem, you just try to get out of it as fast as possible. So espn, I, I got to do everything in ESPN producer wise. It was fun.
- [32:55]
A
Okay, I want to set this up in, in my point of view. So I remember when I was at the Carolina Panthers stadium, I lived 27 years in Charlotte, North Carolina. And you know, during that time, in the early days, very early days, acts it was abc, cbs, NBC. And I remember being in the Panthers stadium and somebody was laughing and that, oh, haha, look at this, this new network's coming in called fox. And in, in, I didn't make fun, but I just thought, wow, this is groundbreaking because I grew up as a child with, in St. Louis, it was channel two, four, five, then you had 11 and 30 and so 58 or.
- [33:52]
B
Something like that, which is PBS.
- [33:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. So my point of view was that this is my point of view. This Fox network was like, what the hell is this about? And, and you join them and now you leave espn, you go to Fox. Tell me about that time being part of a brand new network. You're reshaping not just America, but, but the world. Did you know that? Did you feel it.
- [34:26]
B
When I left espn? And ESPN was at that time one of the, starting to become the behemoth that it was. And I got the call from FOX to meet them, and we had a quick meeting and it went very well. And I went out to. I decided to go out to Los Angeles. Here's how I looked at it. You just mentioned abc, CBS and NBC. That was it. Now there's Fox, brand new. And I'm like, well, my lifetime, there's never been a new network sports division created. I mean, ESPN was its own thing, but this is a new network sports division. I'd rather be a part of that and try something new and fail than sit at ESPN and continue to work there and wonder, what if? You don't ever. You never have wondered, what if?
- [35:34]
A
I heard that before, I heard that.
- [35:37]
B
Before, wanted to say, that's why I travel so much now. What if I, you know, went to. I was just in Australia, New Zealand earlier this month, what I wanted to go see there. And I'm, you know, very fortunate. The wherewithal to be able to do that. I do. I am very blessed in that way. So when we went to Fox, fortunately, David Hill and Ed Gorn. And David Hill was just a force of. He's just a force is the only way to describe it. He. His mind's going in different directions. He. And so when I got to LA and met him, I was like, thank God there's somebody who gets me.
- [36:22]
A
Who did you meet, Ed Gorn or David Hill?
- [36:24]
B
I met Ed Gorn in New York along with another person named Janice Delson. And that was the interview in New York. And then once I got to back and Ed said, okay, you'll get a call in a couple of days. I'll give you the quick thumbnail sketch of how it went down. So I go to New York. I. I had to do it in the morning because I was coordinating producer of the 2:30am Sports center in Bristol later that evening. So I go to New York, do the meeting, come back to Connecticut, drive back to Connecticut, and I have a call. You need to call Larry Jones. There I go, okay. So I call Larry Jones, who was the CFO at the time of Fox Sports, and he goes, hey, how you doing? Great. Okay. You got any family? Yeah, I got a wife. I just got a, you know, daughter. She's almost two. Yeah, that's good. Get a house. I go, okay, stop.
- [37:32]
A
What do you want me to do?
- [37:34]
B
Who are you and why are you asking me all these questions? And he goes, well, my name's Larry Jones. I'm the cfo. And it's my understanding the producer job is yours if you want it.
- [37:46]
A
Whoa, that's big.
- [37:47]
B
Okay. It is big. So I went into ESPN and it was kind of like, let's just say I enjoyed the moment when. Because I tried to help lead a fight to get producers more money. Because I thought, again, we talk about, you're paid what you're worth, and you're worth what you're paid depending on who's making those decisions. And so I go in that evening and we had a coordinating producer meeting. Then after the coordinating producer meeting, I said to my one boss, hey, I need to talk to you. I really need to talk to you. And he goes, well, you know, it's kind of. I'm trying to get out here. I said, it only take five minutes, but trust me, I need to talk to you. And I never do that. I never, I never. Unless it's very, very important, I never do that. And so I go, look, I just wanted to let you know I've got 24 hours to make a decision whether I'm going to go to Fox and head up their Fox NFL Sunday show or I'm going to stay here at espn. And he goes, he goes, I thought they had a producer. I go, they did, but they sacked him. And so they called me to do that show.
- [39:09]
A
I'll never forget this moment.
- [39:11]
B
I'll never forget this moment because is there anything we could do? It goes like this. And I go, well, now, you could have done that months ago when I wanted to more money and thought I reserve more money. But no, it's not going to come down to money. It's going to come down to whether or not I want to stay here. But if I do stay here, there is going to be a big a pay raise that'll be on the backside anyway.
- [39:40]
A
I love that.
- [39:41]
B
And so anyway, got out to la. David was, you know what, you know him, he's just a big outgoing Australia Australian who knows television and wants to push the envelope. You never hear the phrase, this is the way we always do it with David. I hate that phrase.
- [40:08]
A
That's okay. I gotta interject, act. This is, this, this is about you. We are celebrating you. But just a quick David Hill story. So I am, I am in the NASCAR cup series, I'm driving the Furniture Row car. I'm lined up like top 10 for the Daytona 500, but. But I'm working for all of you. I think this was speed at the time. It was speed. David Hill was there and I just kind of meeting him, I'm a little afraid, but I'm a race car driver still. But I'm working for all of you, you know, on the speed TV side. And they had Chubby, they had Chubby Checker, the great musician. They had Chubby Checker there. They bring him on the set, you know, the pre race show, NASCAR race day, you know, built by the Home Depot, there I am. And you know, it was kind of like, you know, give it to Kenny Wallace, he'll do anything. Chubby Checker and myself are doing the Twist. Come on, baby. And we're doing the Twist. And now I'm. My race car is lined up for the biggest race in America and when I get off the set, I gotta go start the race. When, when it was all over, I went back, you know, to changing my fire suit and David Hill looked me, David Hill looked me right in face and he says in that accent, I can't believe it. You're in the biggest race in the world and you were just doing the Twist with Chubby Checker.
- [41:43]
B
That's totally who he.
- [41:46]
A
Yeah.
- [41:48]
B
Exactly. And that's, that's who he is. But he loved it. But he loved it. He loved those moments.
- [41:55]
A
Okay, we are here everybody. It took us 40 minutes but you know, you can't just go fast forward through somebody's career. And we just did. So now we're where we want to be. And this is where my Charlie is going to start editing everything up because it's going to get really good right now. It's going to get really good. Everybody. Now we're at Fox and boy, what a journey you had. And you just taught everybody a lot. Anybody that wants to be in TV is going to watch this. Okay, so now you're at Fox and like at the, at the top of Kenny conversation you, you know, you were a 13 time sports Emmy winner and FOX NFL Sunday. Let's just fast forward and you, you got Terry Bradshaw, one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time for the Pittsburgh Steelers. You got Howie Long who was down there with the Oakland Raiders. And I'll never forget it was Ed Gorn who was trying to get me to, you know, slow my racing down. And he wanted me far part of the first, you know, NASCAR on Fox. And I, and I, and I told Ed Gorn, I said, ed, I just can't quit racing at 30, 34, 37 years old. And he tells me this story how he felt like, you know, Al Davis, Al Davis got mad at Ed Gorn because Ed said he felt like he got how he longed to be on your show. Ax, I, I want to Ask you that, how did you get these great, you know, quarterbacks and football players to. To be on your show, the NFL Today?
- [43:42]
B
Well, that was out of my realm because, as you remember, I told you, and you know, I don't take credit for stuff that I don't do. Those. That team was picked before I got there. They, they had had a producer that was hired and then for one reason or another, it didn't work out for that producer. So I was called in. So I was given that team of J. Young, Howie Long.
- [44:08]
A
Oh, wow.
- [44:09]
B
Terry Bradshaw and Jimmy Johnson.
- [44:11]
A
Now, were you intimidated?
- [44:15]
B
No. And I, because I had, because I'd been around athletes and stuff like that, it. I wasn't intimidated anymore. I might have been first intimidated when I got espn, you know, and you're meeting athletes and stuff. By that point I was like, whatever. And so the one thing that I did is that Howie, and Howie has come such a long way. He's become such a great broadcaster from when he first started. Jimmy knew he was going back into coaching and James Brown was. Was doing sports in Washington D.C. and then did some football games and did a little hosting, but hadn't nobody really knew who James Brown was except in the D.C. area. He wasn't known on the national scale. So I never knew. Yeah, no, nobody really did. Which was the kind of, the beauty of Fox, you know, the, the, the slogan was, same game, new attitude. Okay, well, if you're gonna have a new attitude, if you're gonna do that slogan, that's a lot to live up to. Okay? Because you're telling people. And I'm not a big fan of over promise. I'm a big fan of under promise and over deliver. And so that is a big promise you are making to the viewer. You are going to be different and preferably better than what has been on before. So the first step was, you mentioned it. We had the first hour pregame show. David and Ed had the idea with the football field and it was my job to make sure that we utilized it. I built the show around Terry because Terry was the only experienced broadcaster. I mean, JB was experienced, but Perry had already been on the NFL today. And you know, Terry's personality, it's just such a big personality. My brother, when I took the job, said, if you try to change Terry Bradshaw, I will personally fly out to LA and beat your ass.
- [46:32]
A
I love it. Yes. Yeah. Well, you, you were smart enough. You were smart enough, as you said, to have the whereatha to not change him. That was good on you.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah. Trying to make Terry Bradshaw into whatever, you know, you're the proper host is a joke. He's Terry Bradshaw. Let him be Terry Bradshaw. He wants to tell stories down in the farm. That's who he is, you know. And so we based kind of the show around him. Even though JB was what most people would say was the host of the show, actually him and Terry were co hosts. And so we based the show around him. We did not. We told the talent, you don't find the camera, we'll find you. We want this to be. As we're eavesdropping with JB being the kind of quizzing public motion, we're eavesdropping into a really smart football conversation with Harry Bradshaw, who is the quarterback, Howie Long, who is on the defensive side, and Jimmy Johnson, who was the coach. Okay. All three phases of the game were covered. And so we didn't really try to script it as much as when I was at espn. We might have scripted the conversations a little bit more. It was kind of. You had to script certain parts, but mostly it was, let's have a free for all fight for your airtime. And it'll be. It'll be much better that way. It's not going to be as stilted. You know, you talk, then you talk, then you talk. If you talk over each other, that's fine. As long as you don't do it. You're not arguing. It wasn't an argument fest like it is today on television, which is, you know, not to be the old guy, but that's one of the things that, you know, bothers me, is that there's not a lot of storytelling. It's, you know, who's going to. Well, now, who's going to win the Super Bowl? You know, I. I don't know, but somebody does. But tell me why you're going to win the Super Bowl. Tell me why somebody's going to win the super bowl is more important, or who is the guy on the defensive line that nobody knows, but his backstory is phenomenal. Get me interested in that way. There's not. Storytelling, sadly, in my opinion, has become a lost art on sports television.
- [49:14]
A
I want to say this. I've just been salivating. This is my time right here, this moment. Okay. I wish you would have came along earlier in my TV career because it wasn't till the end of my TV career that you taught me these things. And if. If anybody listens to me on a lot of things I do, I always say, and this is why. And that was because of you, Ax. Because of what you just said. You were. You know, I would say, you know, well, you know, this. This race was really good, and this is why you taught me that. Okay, now we're gonna go in to another thing you taught me, and I've been preparing for this for three weeks.
- [50:02]
B
All right.
- [50:03]
A
Oh, okay. Give it up. It. It's. I'm gonna do my very best to set this up. When I watched the Netflix special with John Elway, John Elway hated Terry Bradshaw because Terry Bradshaw gave his opinion on. On John Elway, and Elway did not like it. Now, this is where you come in. You taught me at the end of my career, you.
- [50:30]
B
You.
- [50:30]
A
You created one of the most famous phrases in tv in. In my opinion. You said this to me. Say what you mean and mean what you say. And I believe Terry Bradshaw said what he meant, and he meant what he said, and it pissed John Elway off his whole life until the very, very end. Tell me the backstory of say what you mean and mean what you say.
- [51:03]
B
It really came down to the people that I had comment, you know, whether at espn, you know, I had Tom Jackson with Chris Berman on NFL Primetime, and Tommy was a very good player. He's in the Broncos ring of Honor, and he knows more about football than anybody. So when I have Terry Bradshaw, hall of Famer, Howie Long, soon to be hall of Famer, would be hall of Famer, great player, great player. Jimmy Johnson, coming off of two Super Bowls, you can say whatever you want as long as it's not personal. As long as it's not Percy, say whatever you want because you. And. But when you say that, have something to back it up. Just.
- [52:05]
A
Why?
- [52:06]
B
Well, yeah, the why part of it. Why is important. But as long as you're not trying to say something to appease a friend, you know, and then you have to wonder about how it is or people. If you think a guy is not playing well or a racer isn't racing up to their potential, there is nothing wrong with saying that as long as you have reasons for that. And that's where I mean by say what you mean and mean what you say. If you have the proper reasons for what you said, there's no reason why you can't say it. So that's where I told you, you know, say what you mean and mean what you say. And if you do that, it's a. I'll tell you this, Kenny. In all my years of doing television, and I can't remember an instance, though I'm sure it probably happened that I said something. I never had a talent come to me and say, I heard you said this about me to person X. And the reason is, is because I would say it to you, I would say it to Howie, I would say it to, I'd say it to all of them. I'd say what I thought I meant, what I said. There is a, a funny story where I had a similar straight up conversation, you know, like the one we had in Sullivan's.
- [53:39]
A
We'll get to that.
- [53:42]
B
With a talent. And I was kind out what I, you know, the expectations were so on and so forth. I get, Scotty, come here, David. I go, oh, that's a different tone. That's not the, hey, Scotty. You know, he goes, did you tell this person this? And I go, oh, yeah, I did. Hi. I go, because I was just being honest with him. Oh, you were just being honest. You were being honest with talent. Do that. So for the next two months, the next two months, I had to hear in our staff meeting, at some point, David would say after I said something, just being honest, aren't you?
- [54:42]
A
I love it.
- [54:44]
B
I'd rather have been that than that person hearing from somebody else what I said. Because they know I looked him in the eye and told them what I thought. Whether it's right or it's wrong. It was my opinion. You asked for my opinion, I'll give it to you. I always, whenever a talent asked me for an opinion, I said, do you want the truth or you want to hear an answer? And some of them wouldn't go to, I want the truth. And because sometimes the truth can be you're great, you know. But they don't necessarily think that all the time. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now.
- [55:43]
A
T mobile is in US cellular stores.
- [55:47]
B
Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits. Plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required. When the flu is keeping you up at night, don't try to tough it out. Knock out your flu symptoms with Nyquil Intense Flu. You got this. It provides powerful relief of your flu symptoms so you can sleep well through the night. NYQUIL Intense Flu. The nighttime sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine Use as directed. Keep out of reach of children.
- [56:23]
A
I'm the coordinating producer right here, right now, and we are at a moment where we can go another two hours. So I. I want to get to a situation where I can get your opinion on today's Hot Topics. Okay, so, you know, before we do that, we did talk about this about 40 minutes ago. Obviously, you had something special that FOX saw. So to kind of wrap up everything in Fox before we move on to fun. And I. I have it wrote down here. Was your job being the coordinating producer? Was there psychology involved reading into people's minds? What. What was your angle? Because when. When I. I'm a philosopher is. Is off centered as I am, Like, I'm like a Terry Bradshaw.
- [57:21]
B
I'm.
- [57:21]
A
I'm different. I'm goofy. I'm not goofy. I'm just different. What made. What made you be the way you are? What. What was your psychology? Did you learn that you're telling me, along the way?
- [57:34]
B
Yeah, I learned that along the way, definitely. I mean, when you live in different parts of the country, you meet a lot of different people along the way. I mean, people that you would know by, you know, a guy by the name of Nick Lawler and Tom Kirby up in Minneapolis. I mean, they were people that really influenced me as well. But Jimmie Johnson had the perfect line. I treat everybody the same. I treat them all differently. Meaning that, yeah, yeah, I treat everybody the same, but to get motivated out of. And I was paraphrasing. That wasn't the exact quote, but it's. It's pretty close to it. So. Yeah, and his line was, if Emmett Smith is sleeping in a meeting, I'm waking him up. If a guy on the backup, you know, kicking team is sleeping, he's cut, you know, so now Emmett would not sleep in the meeting. Emma was just, you know, it was different. But the point is, is that, yeah, you deal with stars and you deal with talent different than you might deal with, you know, production or whatever. I. Look at times, I know I wasn't the nicest, most easy person to work for, especially behind the camera and sometimes in front of the camera. I had my opinions on how things should go, but I always dealt with it as the show came first. Whatever I thought was best for the show, that's what I did. That's the only thing I cared about, and that was how I interacted. So would I treat Howie different than Terry, than Jimmy? Yes. Then JB absolutely treated them all different. Pam as well, who came to Fox and got put into the hall of fame, the broadcasting hall of fame this past December. Pam Oliver, one of my favorite people on the planet. But yes, we, we all interact differently. You interact differently than me, than you do your brother Rusty. Then you, I mean you just. Relationships aren't all the same and so why would you expect to treat everybody the same now? I'm not going to. If you're a production assistant, you can still have as good of an idea as the boss. I never once looked upon because I was, you know, at the lower and it moved my way up. Everybody could. Anybody a good idea can come from anywhere. This actually came from Minneapolis when we were doing. If you would do the news during the week, let's say the 6 o', clock, you would have a 6:30 meeting. 6:30 in the morning. And that meeting consisted of everybody. The whether the person was the assistant, the receptionist, whether it was the. Everybody in the entire newsroom and everybody in the building was welcome to that meeting with your story ideas. Oh, you know what? There's, you know, there's a lot of potholes on this road all of a sudden. I don't know why, okay, go look at it and Right, okay, that could come from anywhere. So I never once. And that's why I think people liked generally working for me is because they felt they had a chance to have an idea that they came up with, put on the air. And I could have been, you know, at times I was probably a little difficult, but that's because I was demanding. I felt that, you know, we are at. When I'm at Fox Sports, I'm in the pinnacle of my business. It ain't getting any better. Fox, NFL Sunday in a studio, it's just not. And so if I'm at the pinnacle of the business, the people that are working on that show also should be at the pinnacle of their business. Because you want to be a director directing in terms of sports studio show, that is the pinnacle of what you can do. So that was my, that's how I acted at Fox and what my expectations were. And I to the most part I think we met those expectations inside the NBA. Tim Kiley, who used to work with me at ESPN talked to, you know, he said look Terry, the way you did Terry and those guys and you just made them have a conversation influenced what he does on Inside the NBA with Shaq, Kenny, Charles, Ernie. And it's the same thing. They just different characters and they've done it better. I mean because they had more time and stuff and they have great chemistry and so that's that was kind of my thought, my philosophy, just beautiful.
- [62:48]
A
Because I think it's people's journeys that makes, you know, their philosophy. So you just brought up some great points that, that I love to hear. Your stops along the way shaped who you are and it was your journey that shaped you. You know, it's not like somebody told you, I do this. Thank you for that.
- [63:11]
B
I had a lot of people tell me, do this and you do it, you know.
- [63:15]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [63:16]
B
But, but if you get the chance to do it yourself, okay, what am I going to do differently if I get that opportunity?
- [63:24]
A
Yeah.
- [63:25]
B
Learn along the way. Everybody can teach you. Everybody can teach you, boy.
- [63:30]
A
Isn't that true? Here I am, 62 years old and I find myself, I tell people, I say, listen, this is not me. I learned this from Dick Trickle or Dale Earnhardt or Rusty Wallace. And I just repeat some of the things that I learned along the way. Okay, we are switching subjects, everybody. We are talking to the Great Scott Ackerson, 13 time Emmy Sports winner, coordinating producer at FOX NFL Sunday. And, and this is the time of the show where we have fun and we're gonna do it. All right, first one up. What is it about Ohio? My, my guy, Charlie Marlowe, he was in a subdivision and he said Michigan was at the end of the street. However, he, he's an Ohio guy. But I got my notes.
- [64:27]
B
He didn't cross the street, did he?
- [64:30]
A
When we get off, we'll talk to Charlie about that.
- [64:32]
B
He better not across that street. We're gonna have some challenges.
- [64:35]
A
No, he's an Ohio guy. Okay, so this leads me to this. What is it about Ohio? Because do they make TV guys there? Jake Jolivet, one of your producers who's still in the game, is, Is there, is it, is it in my brain or is there something about Ohio and tv?
- [64:59]
B
Well, Ohio University and Bowling Green University are very good communication schools. So, you know, I don't know. And that in fact, that's the reason I went to Ohio U as opposed to Ohio State, is that we. The communications program and the journalism program at Ohio University was very, very good. And the same thing in Bowling Green. So you get. I don't know. There's a different sensibility to me that I found as I've lived in the south and the north and the east and the Midwest, is that the Midwest just has a different type of work ethic. I don't know how to describe it. Well, you just suck it up, you know, and, and also too, Midwesterners are very friendly they really are. I mean, and look, this whole notion as. This. This whole notion of, well, eat whatever. When you drive around the country, as I have, and I've been in all 50 states, and I've done it, you know, I do it. This year, I will drive more than 15,000 miles on two different road trips between here and to Canada, so on and so forth, is that, you know what? People are friendly. If you do two things, say please and say thank you. That's it. And you'll find. Hold the door open for somebody, oh, thank you. That's all. You know, it's. It's not that hard. I have never once encountered. I'm gonna bow up on you, boy. You know, I mean, that just doesn't happen because you say please say thank you can go a long way.
- [66:45]
A
That's good stuff.
- [66:46]
B
You.
- [66:47]
A
I just always thought it was incredible that so many TV people came out of Ohio. Okay, next.
- [66:54]
B
Ohio you is probably. Probably part of it. You know, I mean, it's just. I don't know. I didn't. I knew what I wanted to do very early. I mean, I was fortunate enough. I got to caddy I. For the great Keith Jackson.
- [67:08]
A
No.
- [67:08]
B
Keith Jackson. Whoa.
- [67:10]
A
Yes.
- [67:12]
B
That guy could. That guy could golf his golf ball. I mean, we. He played Muirfield Village with Persimmon woods, shot the most comfortable 75 from the back tees as you'd ever see. And. Wow. But I told him what I, you know, wanted to do. He wrote me a nice note saying, you know, good luck, blah, blah, blah. I always wanted to meet him. I never did. Our paths never crossed in terms of. But I always wanted to meet him and tell him about that note. And so I was fortunate. I knew what I wanted to do. I just had to figure out how to do it. And so starting at the bottom, working my way up was my way of doing it.
- [67:57]
A
I. I don't have this question wrote down, but I want to ask it in your opinion. Now, I. I feel like I know the answer, but I want to hear it from you. What is the deal with golf? Because all the great athletes, they play at the highest level of all, and they just cannot get enough of golf. Roger Penske, I'm going to serve it to you this way. The great Roger Penske. Rusty told me this. My brother Rusty all said, Herman, which is my nickname, Roger Penske said, if Roger Pensky told me, if I want to learn how to do proper business, you better learn how to golf. What is your opinion on this game of golf? That the greatest athletes in the world. Just can't get enough of golf.
- [68:51]
B
Well, I think it's kind of twofold in terms of the last part, the business aspect. The reason is, is that you can find out a lot about a person on the golf course, find out whether they're honest, whether they're not honest, how they're going to act, whether they're going to cheat, whether they're to cheat. Golf is very telling. Very, very telling. It also is you can't win, can never win in golf.
- [69:21]
A
Every, no, you lose every day, you lose every day.
- [69:26]
B
And so, but you're always trying to get better. You always, I'm one swing away, I'm this, I'm that. And so it's kind of like you get there and then it takes it away. And you know, and so it's a never ending quest. And the other reason is there's a lot of beautiful golf courses. Yeah, I mean, you know, golf courses aren't built on bad properties.
- [69:56]
A
No.
- [69:56]
B
You know, you saw they were out of Torrey Pines this week, last week they're gonna be out at Pebble Beach. You know, go. Golf courses are built in some really nice areas and it's just a way of getting out and relaxing. I always said until these phones, you know what, there are no fax machines and there are no phones on the golf course. You can just get away. And sometimes you need to get away for four hours. Just, just you in a golf course where all your problems, all your problems are going to be there four hours from now. Okay? They're not gonna. So let me get my four hours and enjoy those four hours. And then you know what? I gotta get back to the real world and I've gotta, you know, go back and grind it and do whatever I have to do. But for four hours I'm away from it all. And then phones came and then all that stuff and beepers and now you can't get away. But it's all right.
- [71:00]
A
I, I've always wanted to talk to somebody about that. They, they, they quiz Charles Barkley. Lately, how many days do you golf in a week? He's seven.
- [71:12]
B
I just thought, I thought I'm seven anymore. I go probably between four and five.
- [71:20]
A
Okay, moving on. The next question for me to you is hurtful in a funny way, but not funny. And I'm going to ask you this a different way. So in college football, Ohio lost to Indiana, or should I say Indiana surprised you. Which, which is it? So did, did Ohio lose or did Indiana surprise you?
- [71:50]
B
Indiana won. Indiana had they they were better. They, they proved they were better than every team. They just went on the field. They executed. Football's a team game. Now if you look at the average age of their starting line, I mean if they're starting 12, 22, you'd see that it's about the same age as the packers starting 22, pretty similar. And so I don't know that that's what they did. I mean, God bless again, he did it in two years where, you know, there has been no bigger sports story in my lifetime from rags to riches than Indiana University football. They literally were the worst team in the history of college football. Record wise. They had the worst record in the history of college football. And in two years they won the national championship undefeated. And I. So that wasn't Ohio State wasn't just surprised. I State lost, Indiana won. And same thing with Miami. The two teams Ohio State lost to this year, Indiana national champions. Miami national champion, runner up. So everybody, you know, and in Columbus, Ohio, the sky is always falling. You know, it's the end. We need to fire Ryan Day because you got idiots as fans and they are idiots that say, you know, we need to fire Ryan Day.
- [73:36]
A
Is the sky always falling in Ohio because you expect to win all the time.
- [73:41]
B
Yeah, they expect to win. If you don't go 15 0, you had a bad year.
- [73:47]
A
Like Alabama. Larry McReynolds in Alabama.
- [73:50]
B
Yeah. Reynolds in Alabama or Steve Craddock in Alabama, man. I mean it's just that. And so they're been insane about it. They're a bit passionate about it. But that's why, you know, people. I think also though, that's why players want to go there. Besides the fact that the facilities are phenomenal, they develop NFL players this year after seeing what Indiana did, guess what Ohio State did. They went out in the portal and recruited older dudes. Why? Because older dudes are more experienced and older dudes know what to do. Now they still have great freshmen, sophomores and juniors. But in the portal rather than, you know what, I'm going to pay 5 million for this dude or 3 million for that guy. You know what, we'll supplement what we got. We'll pay the people that we have here and then. But the people we're going to supplement are going to be older players. They're going to be third year players. They're not going to be first year players. And Indiana changed college football.
- [74:56]
A
Yeah. So the, the Indiana coach. One thing that. Listen, I try to know a little bit about everything. I don't know anything that you guys know about football. But one thing that drew me to that Indiana coach is, boy, he's a philosopher. I mean, all those, all those college football coaches, man, they got. They got cliches. I mean, when they speak, it comes out clearly. And boy, it is fascinating. And I find that, that Indiana coach, I heard him just say something and I'm like, wow, that was good.
- [75:35]
B
He's not a cliche guy.
- [75:37]
A
Yeah. And I didn't mean that. I used the wrong word, cliche.
- [75:40]
B
That's fine. Whatever. He.
- [75:42]
A
He really knows how to inspire people. Does that make sense with his words?
- [75:47]
B
Absolutely. Jimmy Johnson knew how to inspire people. The famous story of Jimmy Johnson in the two by four.
- [75:54]
A
What is it?
- [75:54]
B
You've heard that story.
- [75:55]
A
Okay, maybe not. Maybe not.
- [75:57]
B
Two by four. I forget it might have been before the first super bowl that they won. Puts a two by four on the floor. Okay, Nate, go over and walk on the two by four. Nate goes over there, walks down to two by four. Michael, go over there and walk on the two by four. Michael gets over there. Okay, now let's put that 20ft up in the air. You want to walk on it? Well, no, I don't want to walk on it. Why? You just did it here. It's the same thing. The reason is, is that you have a fear, a fear that you might. Something might happen, even though you just showed that you can do it without any problem. And that's where football coaches need to be, that type of motivator and philosopher. I mean, you're trying to get in the NFL. 53 grown ass men.
- [76:50]
A
Yeah.
- [76:51]
B
To follow you, who are really, for one thing, I want to get paid, I want money. Because that's why you're. You're playing. Even though they say I do it for free, you know, they're going, they're going.
- [77:06]
A
They're on their way to get the money free.
- [77:08]
B
Then go, go give the owner, you know, give your team, you know, only take 5 million, spend the rest there. So anyway, they're all there for that. But you have to get people to follow, and they have to believe your message. If they don't believe your message, then it's a waste. And the great coaches do that. Nick Saban, who Signetti learned from, you know, both coaches in the national championship game came. Learned under Saban.
- [77:37]
A
Both of them. Yeah. Boy, he's a good speaker.
- [77:40]
B
Wow.
- [77:41]
A
Saban's incredible.
- [77:43]
B
Saban's incredible. And he's incredible in terms of how he manages a college football program. And was. And it was pretty evident now the difference is going from college to the NFL and trying to carry that same message. Well, that's different. Those. It's not. Hey, you know, you're 22 years old and you're moving on with your life. It's like this guy might be here after I get sacked. So how do I motivate? How do I motivate guys in the NFL? And I always felt it was harder to motivate people in the NFL than it would be in college.
- [78:21]
A
Okay, I want you. I would like your take on this. I take pictures of everything in my mind. I saw Saban criticize college football and I saw Patino criticize basketball. Both of them saying that they're collective sports. You know, Saban said, I don't like the way college football is going. Patino, I don't like the way. What, what is that about? I mean, what don't.
- [78:48]
B
That's about the fact that. Well, they don't like the fact that you can pay somebody a million dollars and then they can go leave the next year. And look, I definitely, for college athletes getting paid the amount of money that it's a lot different than it was back in the 70s and 80s when I was going to college, where, you know, they weren't making that much money off of college football. You know, I mean, it's just now, you know, there's billions and billions of dollars with a B, not an M, a B, that are being made. And so the people that are actually putting on that product should get paid. Now what they're complaining about is there are no guardrails, there are no rules per se. There's some rules, but, you know, you just saw the Duke kid who signed it. I've got a contract. And then I'm going back into portal because, you know, Miami's going to pay me more money. No. So I think it's kind of. There's a couple solutions that I think need to happen and what they probably won't. But you can transfer once without pay. And this is what John Calipari was saying at down in Arkansas basketball coach, you can transfer once with no penalty because you might not like the coach. You might have been told you're gonna get playing time. X, Y or Z, go ahead, leave. However, if you transfer a second time, you have to sit out a year because now you're just chasing. You're just chasing dollars. Yeah. And again, short term versus long term. If I was chasing, you know, dollars, I would have probably gone into banking because I like math. But that's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to do television. So I didn't chase dollars. I chased what I wanted to do. And for some of these kids, it's, look, if you go to Ohio State, with the exception of archleester, if those who know Arch Leester can look up that reference. Anyway, if you go to Ohio State and you play for Ohio State in four, for four years, and you play quarterback, running back, or you will never have to find. Worry about finding a job because there's some alumni that'll hire you. Now, if you go to Alabama and then you go to lsu, then you go to Ohio State, you end up in Michigan.
- [81:22]
A
Yeah, they're not. You don't know who you belong. You don't know who you belong to.
- [81:26]
B
Exactly. You're just a hired gun, which is fine. You know, you want to make a hired gun, you made, you know, 500,000 here, Bill, whatever. And then you end up with 5 million at the end. Now, unless you've got a very good money manager at 5 million ain't lasting for the rest of your life, and you might have thrown an opportunity away to work at some, you know, firm or whatever for. And learn the ropes from the bottom up at some investment company that the alumni, one of the alumni guys owns who took a liking to you, and now you can be able to make five, ten million dollars a year. Okay?
- [82:04]
A
Yeah.
- [82:05]
B
And so the amount of people who go from college basketball to the nb, Very small. The amount of people that play college football that go to the NFL is. He is very small. The NBA is even smaller. Okay? So unless you are guaranteed to go there, you might want to think about the big picture. And to me, the big picture is, look, get paid because I think college athletes should get paid. Try to get whatever deal you can, but. But pick the right school and stay there if you can, avoid not transferring. It's like the Alabama kid, Ty Simpson, you saw what he said. Ty Simpson could have gone and made. Ty Simpson could have made four or five million dollars at Tennessee, okay? He said, I didn't want to go do that because it would have ruined my legacy.
- [83:07]
A
Well, he wanted to. He.
- [83:11]
B
Okay, so let's say he bombs out in the NFL, right? It's possible. I mean, quarterbacks, less than 50% of the quarterbacks that are drafted in the first round stay for five years. It's just, you know, it's just math. If he bombs out because of that statement, that kid's getting a job somewhere in Alabama. Hell, he might even be a politician in Alabama someday. And so that's what I mean by Ty got paid. But it wasn't like, yeah, let me go to play Tennessee for a year. Now I'm going to try the NFL. If I don't make it, I know I'll be fine because I stayed at Alabama and was an Alabama guy.
- [83:55]
A
And that's what there's so much to say about that. I just want to end this conversation like this. When Albert pujols left the St. Louis Cardinals for the Anaheim Angels, it crushed me because around the St. Louis area, we would raise millions of dollars for Albert's, you know, foundation, and he went to Anaheim, you know, it didn't turn out he came back to end his career. I just often, I'd often think to myself listening to what you say. You know, I mean, listen, I'm not going to speak for Albert Pujols, but it's very clear that, you know, he said his first wife said that they didn't respect us in St. Louis or else they would have give us the money. But in the. But in the end, a million here, 10 million there, whatever. He came back to St. Louis because he had to end his career the right way. He did. But boy, I'll tell you what, there is something about just a devastating blow like you just said, you know, that, that kid gonna stay at Alabama. Boy, if Albert would have just stayed at St. Louis, he, he could have solved world peace in, you know, for the city of St. Louis.
- [85:12]
B
But you don't think Javier Molina couldn't have gotten more money somewhere else? You don't think Chris Carpenter could have gotten money somewhere else? Wayne Wright could have gotten money somewhere, more money somewhere else. They could have.
- [85:24]
A
Amen.
- [85:25]
B
Amen. It' you want out of life? Okay, if I don't. And look, if somebody wants to go chase and make, you know, an extra $5 million, God bless them if they can. They should. They should do whatever they want. But if somebody doesn't want to do that and wants to stay for next, say, 5 million less, they shouldn't be crucified because they left money on the table. It's like the, oh, Ramirez up in Cleveland. You know, I know we're getting on a baseball tangent, and I'll wrap this up real quick, but Jose Ramirez in Cleveland signed a contract and he goes, I could have gotten more money, but I'm comfortable in Cleveland. I like Cleveland. I like the people, I like the town. And you know what I'm making? I've got over 150 million. I'm good.
- [86:15]
A
I Just heard this lately. Yeah, I just heard this lately by Elon Musk. And this is so appropriate for right now. Leave politics out of it. Elon Musk said just recently, he said it is true money does not bring you happiness. It for some, maybe, but. But you're to your point. When you get to a level where it's so much money, just try to be happy now. I like that. I recently talked to my brother Rusty about that.
- [86:50]
B
And hey, look, when I left, there was money. You know, I wanted to be happy. I wanted to be healthy.
- [86:57]
A
You had had enough.
- [86:58]
B
Yeah, no, I want to be happy and healthy. I mean, I'd had, you know, you know, I had heart surgeries and stuff like that. And so it's like, you know, your experience, you're shaped by your father. I was shaped by my father. Okay? My dad, till basically the time when he passed, worked all the way to the end and he was having to take nitro pills and so on and so forth. And he's driving around the country, you know. Yeah, he's driving around the country trying to sell his product and all this stuff. And I said to myself, you know, I. I want to respect my dad in this manner if I can retire because he wanted to travel, he wanted to do all that stuff and he couldn't because he didn't have the money. And there's a lot of reasons why that is. You know, mainly, you know, go back and look at the economies back in the 70, late 70s and under the. I'm not gonna get political under the Carter administration. But anyway, I said, if I can avoid doing that, I'm going to do that. And so for me, it came down to, can I take care of my family, my wife, my daughter? Okay. Will my daughter be able to have enough so that if something happens to us, she can live her life. Life and not have to worry about. Because, you know, there are things. Okay, maybe if the answer. If the answer to those questions, two questions are yes, and you can have a good lifestyle, then what are you working for? You're working for one of two things. You're either working to make more money because you want to have more money and you need more money, or you're working for ego.
- [88:38]
A
Yeah. You don't have a life. You don't have a life.
- [88:41]
B
You don't have a life. And so those are the only two reasons. So, you know, once you can, if you ever get in a position for me, and this is me, this isn't you. This isn't anybody else. If you can get in a position where your family's taken care of and you can still live a comfortable lifestyle and do what you want and go be able to see things that you haven't seen before. This country is freaking beautiful. People haven't been to probably Utah in their lives and Utah's probably the most, most beautiful state in this, in this country.
- [89:13]
A
Not even Salt Lake City.
- [89:16]
B
Salt Lake City is not even any of it. I mean, you, Bryce Canyon, Zion, I mean Arches, Canyonlands, I mean, get in your car and go drive. You don't have to go to Europe, you know, I mean, look, there's nothing wrong with Europe. Been to Europe, like Europe, it's all right. But so many people miss what is around this country to see and do. And I decided I wanted to go see and do it. Martha listens to her favorite band all the time. In the car, gym, even sleeping. So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them. Like she saved so much. She got to see close enough to actually see and hear them sort of. You were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you more Expedia made to travel. Savings vary and subject to availability. Flight inclusive packages are at all protected. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% percent versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math. @t mobile.com switch and now T Mobile.
- [90:35]
A
Is in US cellular stores.
- [90:38]
B
Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.
- [90:50]
A
I know this is going to be very unfair because we're not going to spend a lot of time on NASCAR because your career was so much bigger than nascar. But, but I'm gonna. Yes, exactly right. And I know that. So I, I will, I will ask you a couple questions about nascar.
- [91:15]
B
Okay?
- [91:16]
A
You, you, you. At the end of your career, you. They, they told you to head our way. You came to NASCAR land. You shut speed. You shut speed tv down so f. FS1 could start. Great move because I see what you were up against. All the other networks, they were at a. A sports deal too. Okay. Now that, now that you've, you've seen the NASCAR world. What I know this is a loaded question. What has happened to our sport? It has fallen from grace. I. That's Question number one. I just want you to answer that. Give me your thoughts, and then I want to ask you about the playoffs. So, number one, what has happened in nascar? Is it a societal shift? Has NASCAR done something wrong? I just gave you a couple there. Let's talk about that first. What has happened to my beloved sport?
- [92:19]
B
Well, I think it's somewhat of a societal ship. When you were growing up and I was growing up and nascar, and I wasn't a big. I would never classify myself as a big NASCAR aficionado. I followed the sport. You know, I knew, you know, who was there now, but I did. Wasn't really into the ins and outs. The difference was that people worked on their cars. You worked on your car. Brand down the street worked on his car, everybody. Now, nobody works on their cars. Oh, you put it in the computer, it fixes it. You move on. Okay. You're not tinkering with, you know, the car or whatever. You're not doing any of that stuff. So the culture of cars is significantly different than what it was in NASCAR's kind of heyday. So I think that's a big, big part of why it has fallen off.
- [93:26]
A
The car is not as cool as it used to be.
- [93:29]
B
No, it's not as cool. They all look the same. When you know that every car looks the same, they slap on, you know, Ford, they slap on Chevy or whatever viewer. It looks the same. And then the other aspect of it, which speaks to what we'll talk about in terms of, you know, the playoffs and the stuff.
- [93:47]
A
Yeah, Let. Let's do that right now. Playoffs. Okay.
- [93:52]
B
You would know the answer to this question better than me, but how much does it cost a race team in nascar, you know, at the cup level, to run a race per race?
- [94:07]
A
You're looking at, like, when I. When I talk to rick Hendrick. Yeah. $1 million per race or more. 20 million a year per car. Yeah. You. You cannot. You cannot get enough money. All the car owners are saying they threw. They throw their own money in because they can't get enough.
- [94:27]
B
All right? What. I think part of that reason is because you don't have the same sponsor on the car.
- [94:36]
A
No loyalty.
- [94:37]
B
I mean, look, Rusty, I don't blame the advertisers. The advertisers are smart, but Rusty was always the Miller Light number two.
- [94:46]
A
Yes.
- [94:46]
B
You know, Dale was the number three. You know, good wrench. Tony Stewart was, you know, Home Depot. You knew the driver, the paint scheme, and the. And who the company was. So when it comes to NASCAR and the playoffs, I believe that NASCAR should end and this is controversial. I know people we throwing stuff at you and telling, no, he's an idiot or whatever. NASCAR should end on Labor Day at Darlington. Now why would I say that? Okay, you start obviously to get away from the NFL. Look, nobody cares about reality is the American public is done with NASCAR after Labor Day. It's NFL, it's college football. That's what it is. You're not watching Xfinity and all that stuff.
- [95:45]
A
So the ratings show it.
- [95:47]
B
Right? So, and let's say for argument's sake that's I don't know how many races are after Labor Day, but there's approximately 10 to 12, something like that. 10. Okay.
- [96:00]
A
It's seven, eight months of racing. That should be enough.
- [96:03]
B
Okay, so you would now save a million dollars per race, per team, per owner. Okay, now, now when you go to a sponsor, you're not asking them to sponsor 35 races. You're asking them, okay, how about 24? And then, you know, so they now know that I'm going to be seen in the best, the highest rated part of the year. And also too, there will be an identity now with the driver back again. Okay, whoever the, you know, whether it's Lowe's, you know, Jimmy Johnson was always the Lowe's car. You know, I don't think Lowe's is probably there for 36 races. They might be, I don't know. But the point is, is that when NASCAR was in its prime, that's everybody knew who was what now.
- [97:03]
A
And they used to run 28 races that years ago they ran way less.
- [97:08]
B
Okay, you would know that better than me. But that's not what you hear from, you know, everybody now, now how do you crown a champion? Well, I know they've gone back to the 12 and they'll race 10 races for that. I think that just people get bored. All right, so my solution would be this five weeks before Darlington, so you'd have a five week stretch for the playoffs. All right, the top eight get bogs. The top eight are automatically in for the last four races. Okay. Then from nine to 24, they're racing for the next eight spots in that one race. So if you're 24th, you can still get in the notion of, well, he run a race. He's in now, that's out. Sorry, get out. If you can't get to the top eight, top eight, you're guaranteed to go for the title. So wherever that race is, you could take wherever it is 9 to 24. The other eight are still going to race much like the other racers now race during the playoffs. And even though they don't really matter, top eight are still racing. But you're going to have eight people grinding their butts off to try to get into that 16 team playoff. Now for the 16 teams and it ends at Darlington. You ended at one of the most historic tracks there is. I would put the four races I would put would be end at Darlington. Bristol would be in there, Charlotte would be in there. And maybe it's the robo or you just make it short, whatever and then pick what other one and nobody gets eliminated. It's 16 guys and they're racing for the title and it all ends and you're done. It'll never happen. It would save money. It would save. It would be better for the networks. They won't have to deal with stuff. There's a lot of positives to that. I don't think it'll happen because people are going to see this and they're going to go nuts when you know, oh, that's a stupid idea. I can't believe that. You know, why are we only going to have 25 races or whatever it comes out to be? Well, because, you know, the reason is, is that, and you know, I hate this phrase the way we've always done it. Well, the way we've always done it was we end in November. Well, guess What? It's not 1985. The NFL is significantly bigger than it was in the 80s.
- [99:59]
A
Let me, let me interrupt you. I want to interrupt you only because I'm going to brag on you, okay? I, I know my NASCAR. Okay. Maybe way back, maybe way back in the 1950s or 60s, they ran 100 lap races and they ran 60 races a year because they'd run on a Friday night, they'd run on a Saturday night. However, when NASCAR became the great nascar. I'm going to read this to you right now. During the 1980s, averaging between 28 and 31 events per season, the decade saw a stable schedule with 31 races in 1980 and 81, 30 races in 1982-1984. NASCAR only ran 28 races in 1985 and 29 in the latter part of the decade. So you are correct. People want to remember history the way they want to. My point is that when you hear NASCAR used to run 60 races, that's because they was only a hundred lap race at, at a local dirt track. But when NASCAR became modern, when NASCAR became modern and they ran only asphalt tracks, it was 28 to 31 races. So you are correct. You are correct in every way. Race less and. And you can afford more. You would be more brand loyal. And everybody knew that car. I like that.
- [101:37]
B
Yeah, well, it won't happen because part of the problem has to do with the tracks. You know, there are contracts with the tracks and so on and so forth. But if you get past the. This is the way we've always done it and look at how can we compete in today's marketplace because, yeah, it's about television, it's about advertising dollars. And we can say X, Y or Z, but the bottom line is, is once you get to Labor Day, it's over. What sure is for smart you. I mean, look, I know they're going to. And I say that they're going to run 10 races, but I'm not watching. I mean, I'll tune in during a commercial flip over if I'm not watching the Red Zone channel. Where there are, excuse me, there are now four commercials. There are no commercials. But, you know, reality is, is that everybody's done. They're either watching college football on Saturday or they're watching the NFL on Sunday. Now, if you want to do your races on a Thursday night, go ahead, but that's kind of stupid because Thursday night now is NFL. They have nowhere to go. The NFL has taken Thursday and college football is Saturday, Sunday is NFL, Monday is NFL. That's it. That's. Those. Those days are locked in. There's nothing you can do about it. There's. There's no lipstick you can put on a pig to make them come and see. Ain't got a show. So I, you know, it. Look, there are a few things that I talked with NASCAR about. Some of them they. They've actually have done. Even though I remember in one conversation, one head of NASCAR said, all you're trying to do is get people killed because of a change I wanted to make in terms of tires and stuff like that, which they ended up doing. And the funny thing was, this was at St. Elmo's restaurant in Indianapolis, in the upper room, Brad Keselowski comes in. And Brad and I, you know, talk very infrequently. It's not like, you know, and he saw me and he goes, y' all need to listen to this guy because he has some good ideas. And the look on the guy's face who said the idea that Brad was talking about was the very idea he said that I was trying to get people killed with, it was one probably the most satisfying moment Of NASCAR in my NASCAR moment, because drivers are for it. I talked to a number of drivers about it and anyway.
- [104:17]
A
Well, I have ideas.
- [104:19]
B
They're not all good. I have ideas. They're not all good, but I have ideas.
- [104:24]
A
All I can say is this, We've been in trouble a long time and let's end like this. It pains me to say this because I love racing so much and I'm not mad about it. It just kind of hurts my heart a little bit. It is just unbelievable. When I go to Europe, they worship football, soccer in America, In America, we worship football. What it, what is it about this, this football, whether it's college or NFL, this game, it rules America. What is your thoughts? Is it that good of a game?
- [105:13]
B
Let me ask you a question.
- [105:15]
A
Fire away.
- [105:16]
B
In an NFL game, how many minutes of actual football are played?
- [105:22]
A
Very. What? 14 minutes a quarter is. Yeah, yeah. They're always penalties.
- [105:27]
B
15, two minutes ago was forever the actual play. I'm talking about the actual play from the time hockey quarterback throws it. Yeah. Receiver catches it out of bounds. Okay. And everything else is answered.
- [105:41]
A
Six seconds.
- [105:41]
B
Yeah. So. So how many, how much time over the course of a 60 minute game, is there actual football being played?
- [105:48]
A
Yeah.
- [105:48]
B
The answer is approximately seven minutes.
- [105:51]
A
That's amazing. And I, I didn't know the answer, but I knew seven minutes.
- [105:55]
B
Okay, so think about that. People are glued to their television for, in reality, seven minutes of action. Now you say, well, that's not true. Well, football is the perfect television sport and here's why. Play happens. Okay, guy? All right, let's break down the play. Look at here, you know, and they show you the replay and then they'll show you another replay. And they might even get in a third replay. Jake, Joey, they might even get in a third replay. Like, all right, now you're back. Play. Three seconds later, another play starts over and over. There's constant action, constant action in nascar and it's nothing. You know, it's just hard to really capture the speed all the time. But there's not. Yes. Is there constant action? Sure. There's cars going around or whatever, but is there always something happening? Okay. No, not really. I mean, it's, you know, I, I missed the chase last night, but I saw part of it and it was meh. You know, it was fine. But I, I don't think that type of racing works in today's world because people don't undernecessarily understand, especially the general public, the nuances of short track racing. I get why they do It. And it's great they went back to Bowman. But reality is, is that that's not really what works in today's society. So the reason football works, to get back to the original point and why everybody loved football in the States is its constant action. As for soccer, I don't know, man. I mean, look, and I watched the Premier League. I'm a big Brentford Bees fan.
- [107:59]
A
Yeah.
- [107:59]
B
And the reason I did is their first game that they came back to the Premier League, I happened to be flipping through because I'm retired. I'm not doing anything. And they're playing Arsenal now. Arsenal is, you know, one of the top five teams in English Premier Soccer. They haven't been there since 48 or 46. Whatever was the last time they were. They won. They won a game. And I'm watching this team. I have no idea who's on it. Couldn't. Couldn't have told you a single player. And I'm seeing them go around and people are crying and they. They've got this kid who's in a wheelchair. Everybody's coming over to congratulate the kid and put their arm around. And I'm. I got tears and I'm like, that's my team. And I watch them and I've learned, excuse me, a little bit more about the game and what they're trying to do. But as an American, everybody goes, well, they only score one goal, so it's not very exciting. It's more exciting if you kind of know what teams are trying to do. So I've become a soccer fan, if you will, football fan with my Brentford Bees. But, yeah, I think part of it is just the culture. I mean, they. They were brought up every country around the world, except for United States. And really, you know, you got the Southern hemisphere and you got Europe, and they were all on soccer when they were a kid. You know, they got a soccer ball and they kick it around. And soccer is the type of game where you can play with five dudes, you know, and you can kick the ball around and pass and work at it. So it's like, you can't.
- [109:44]
A
You can do that. You go. You go to a Rod Stewart concert and he's kicking soccer balls. You know, Elton John. Elton John, those. Those people from Europe, they. They can sing and they entertain and they. They talk about the sport they love.
- [110:00]
B
Yeah. It's a fun story.
- [110:03]
A
There it is, everybody. I don't think maybe Dale Jr. You have officially become, in my mind, the longest Kenny conversation we've ever had.
- [110:17]
B
I'm amazed, actually, as I look up top and see it's 146.
- [110:22]
A
You're looking at it. And that's what I look at. And Charlie says, herman, go as long as you can go. And you know what? I look at Joe Rogan, and those guys go two and three hours seamlessly, and it's hard to sell it. And Kenny conversation is all about celebrating career. So there he is, everybody.
- [110:43]
B
Thank you for that. I thank you for that. I'm very honored. And I don't say this with any BS or whatever. I'm very honored that you actually remembered my career.
- [110:54]
A
Please.
- [110:55]
B
Because. Because I was a guy behind the scenes that, you know, I did a lot of cool stuff, but I never. I know people in my business actually hired PR people to get their names out. I won't mention their names, but they would do that.
- [111:14]
A
I think it's your name. Ax.
- [111:18]
B
The reason I got the name Ax, actually, Ax Murderer was my nickname at espn. And then TJ would just call me Murderer. And the reason was, is because I never went into a show without having something to go to. So I. My shows were always heavy. And then, okay, AX C1, C5, whatever stories, you know. And so I became AX and Axe Murderer, and I went with Ackerson. But it was very honored to do this. I. Look, we. We've always had fun together. I enjoyed chatting with you. And I, you know, miss Kyle and Rut and, you know, the guys back then when we were doing all this stuff on the road, I, you know, John Morris, when he was doing, you know, track show, he's doing rodeo now. I know that. I know that. And, you know, there's a couple you keep in touch with. And mostly, you know, I keep in touch with people on X, like your. Yourself, Caitlin Vincy, who I'm actually very proud that you know her and Steve Braddock and I, I'll never forget.
- [112:33]
A
Let me tell you, I tell that story real quick.
- [112:35]
B
Real quick.
- [112:36]
A
Yes. My. Myself and the man you're looking at right now, we're eating. We're eating kind of semi dinner at downtown Indianapolis, U.S. and I know Caitlyn Vincy because she's working as one of the entertainers at speed. You know, we're playing the music, we're getting ready. Yeah, she's part of the warm up team, but she has put a lot of effort into tv, local TV in Virginia. You and I are eating dinner by ourselves, and Caitlin Vincy walks right up to you. And I mean, you talk about a ballsy move. She looks, you Right in the face. And she has. She says, I want to be on tv. And you didn't skip a beat. You said, what makes you think you're qualified to be on tv? And she handed you everything you needed electronically, and the rest is history. I will never forget that.
- [113:28]
B
It was. It. I. I like the fact that. Well, one, she didn't realize that I was losing my talent on trackside. Remember Marianella?
- [113:41]
A
Yeah.
- [113:41]
B
You don't remember. But anyway, she was the side. You know, side host, if you will, which was. And I was losing. I'm like, all right, what are we gonna do here? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, geo be on tv. I go, yeah, everybody wants to be on tv. Why? You know why? You go. And so when I got had, you know, had my phone, I had a real. I had a resume. And I call her up and I go, hey, Caitlin, Scott here. How you doing? Good. I need to talk to you when we get to the track. Okay. So we get to the track, and I. Okay. Next week, we're in Phoenix. Okay? You're going to be doing trackside. You're going to take over from there now. Shut up. Not. Don't do that. I go, what? You're going to do trackside next week, and you'll be the host of Marian Ella's position for the rest of the year. Unless, you know. And look, we'll protect you or whatever. And so to see that moment and to see how her career has progressed, I. I find it very good. She's a good egg, and she always was a good egg, and I'm just happy for good things to happen to good people, and she's good people.
- [115:09]
A
And let's end like that, everybody. We ended with nascar, and you create people's careers, so. All right, everybody, as I remind you at the end of every Kenny conversation, you can watch this in two places. If you want to see Scott Ackerson's pretty face, go to the Kenny Wallace YouTube show. If you want to listen to it as you drive around America like Aon does, you go to Dale Junior's Dirty Mo Media. So two places, and I think that's it. You got anything else, Scott?
- [115:44]
B
Nah, just have a great life, and I hope to see you down the road.
- [115:48]
A
All right, everybody, until the next Kenny conversation, we'll see you all next time. Goodbye, everybody. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.
- [116:06]
B
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