Ep 480: Know Your Worth, Then Ask For It with Negotiation Expert Casey Brown

Summary

HerMoney with Jean Chatzky Episode 480: Know Your Worth, Then Ask For It with Negotiation Expert Casey Brown Release Date: June 18, 2025

In Episode 480 of HerMoney with Jean Chatzky, Jean delves into the critical topic of self-advocacy in the workplace with negotiation and pricing expert Casey Brown. Titled "Know Your Worth, Then Ask For It," this episode equips women with the tools and confidence necessary to bridge the gender pay gap by effectively communicating their value and negotiating fair compensation.

1. The Importance of Self-Advocacy in Closing the Gender Pay Gap

Jean Chatzky opens the discussion by highlighting the persistent gender pay gap and the necessity for women to advocate for themselves in the workplace. She emphasizes that each instance of self-advocacy contributes to diminishing the pay disparity:

Jean Chatzky [00:20]: "Every time a woman advocates for herself, we move the needle just a little bit more towards closing that onerous gender pay gap."

2. Defining and Communicating Your Value

Casey Brown introduces her TED Talk's foundational principle: "Know your worth and then ask for it." She explains that employers pay what they perceive the employee's value to be, not necessarily the employee's true worth. To bridge this perception gap, Casey presents a simple formula:

Casey Brown [04:53]: "Define plus tell equals earn."

Defining Value: Clearly articulate the tangible and intangible ways you contribute to your company, such as revenue generation, cost savings, time saved, or enhancing company culture.

Communicating Value: Share this defined value professionally and diplomatically to justify the compensation you seek.

3. Quantifying Your Impact Beyond Numbers

Jean, identifying as a "numbers person," discusses traditional metrics like revenue and cost savings. Casey expands on this by incorporating broader measures of value:

Casey Brown [06:16]: "There are all kinds of other quantifiable impacts we can have, including how much time is saved, how many customers are served."

Furthermore, Casey emphasizes the importance of recognizing and conveying intangible contributions, such as fostering a positive team environment, which can be traced back to financial benefits like reduced turnover costs.

4. Overcoming Self-Doubt and Gendered Communication Styles

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around how societal and internalized beliefs impact women's ability to negotiate. Casey shares insights from her TED Talk, noting the difference in how women and men perceive and communicate their value:

Casey Brown [07:05]: "Women are so much harder on ourselves. We have such lower confidence in our ability even than reality, but certainly less than men have."

She recounts research showing that women often underestimate their performance and potential, leading to hesitancy in negotiations. To combat this, Casey suggests:

• Authenticity: Stay true to your natural communication style rather than imitating a stereotypical salesperson.
• Service Mindset: Reframe negotiation as a way to serve both yourself and your employer by ensuring fair compensation for the value you bring.

5. Strategies for Effective Storytelling in Negotiations

Jean and Casey discuss practical strategies for telling your professional story in a way that highlights your value without feeling like "tooting your own horn." Casey advises:

Casey Brown [11:04]: "Stay true to your voice... Don't try to contrive a different personality so that you can go have this conversation."

She encourages focusing on how your contributions serve the company's needs and aligning your requests with the organization's goals.

6. Pricing Your Services and Overcoming Fears

Transitioning into entrepreneurship, Casey shares her personal journey of initially underpricing her services and the subsequent realization of her true value. She details the emotional and psychological barriers she overcame to double her prices:

Casey Brown [23:54]: "Doubts and fears are normal, natural, totally reasonable... They don't define your value, they don't define your worth and they shouldn't limit your earning potential."

Jean relates to Casey's experience, affirming the necessity of "faking it till you make it" to build genuine confidence over time.

7. Navigating Salary Negotiations in the Current Economic Climate

Jean brings the conversation to the present economic context, noting that staying with a current employer can lead to more substantial wage increases compared to job-hopping, referencing a Fortune magazine study:

Jean Chatzky [00:20]: "Workers who stayed in their roles saw way bigger wage bumps, 4.6% than those who switched jobs, just 0.2%."

Casey discusses how economic tightening affects negotiations, emphasizing that during challenging times, employees become even more essential to their companies:

Casey Brown [17:25]: "When the ship is in stormy seas... your essentialness as a member of the team goes up in difficult times, not down."

She advises leveraging your critical role during economic downturns to justify compensation requests.

8. The Psychological Barrier: Building Internal Confidence

Addressing the psychological aspects of negotiation, Casey cites a Harvard study illustrating the disparity in self-assessed competence between men and women:

Casey Brown [15:21]: "Women estimated they got 46% of the questions right. And men estimated that they got 61% of the questions right."

She underscores the importance of internal validation and building a personal archive of achievements to reinforce self-worth before entering negotiations.

9. Understanding the Impact of Tariffs on Business and Personal Finances

In the latter part of the episode, Jean and Casey shift focus to macroeconomic factors, specifically tariffs. Casey explains how fluctuating tariff policies create uncertainty and constrain business investments, which in turn affects consumer prices:

Casey Brown [28:36]: "Tariffs have an inflationary effect... making businesses much more risk-averse, so they're not spending as much money."

She warns that the unpredictability of tariffs can lead to increased costs across various sectors, ultimately impacting consumers' purchasing power.

10. Key Takeaways and Empowerment for Listeners

The episode concludes with actionable insights for listeners aiming to negotiate better pay and price their services appropriately:

• Define Your Value: Quantify both tangible and intangible contributions.
• Communicate Authentically: Use your natural voice to articulate your worth.
• Build Confidence: Maintain an internal belief in your value through practices like keeping an archive of successes.
• Leverage Economic Conditions: Recognize your essential role during challenging times to strengthen your negotiation position.
• Stay Informed on Economic Factors: Understand how broader economic policies like tariffs can affect your financial standing and business health.

Casey Brown leaves listeners with a powerful message:

Casey Brown [27:31]: "Courage is a skill that can be learned and through repeated practice."

By embracing self-advocacy and strategic negotiation, women can not only enhance their own financial well-being but also contribute to a more equitable workplace.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from Episode 480 of HerMoney with Jean Chatzky, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a comprehensive understanding of negotiating one's worth and navigating the complexities of pricing and economic influences.

Transcript

[Kasey Brown]

Whether you sell a product or service or not, or your own salary and your own and your own talent, we're all selling ideas. And so think of selling as serving, not as trying to get something or trying to manipulate someone or trying to. You're not trying to bilk your employer out of money you don't deserve.

[Jean Chatzky]

Hey, everyone, thanks so much for joining us today on HerMoney. I'm Jean Chatzky. And look, we all know that negotiating for a higher salary can be incredibly nerve wracking, even during amazing economic times. And unfortunately, we are not in amazing economic times. If you caught our recent episode with employment attorney Peter Rabar. You know, layoffs are top of mind for a lot of people right now. And uncertainty, well, if it isn't the word of the year, it probably should be. But if you've been with your company for a while or you've taken on more work than this year or even in the past couple of years, you might want to ask for a raise anyway. And I for one, think that you should. Because every time a woman advocates for herself, we move the needle just a little bit more towards closing that onerous gender pay gap. By doing so, you are paving the way for other women to know what they deserve and to have the confidence and the guts to demand it. And the data actually shows that now is a good time to do it. According to research from Fortune magazine, for the first time in a decade, workers who stayed in their roles saw way bigger wage bumps, 4.6% than those who switched jobs, just 0.2%. So the question is, how do you do this? How do you make that ask, how do you communicate your value clearly and confidently and unapologetically. My guest today, Kasey Brown, has the answers. She is a negotiation and pricing expert, founder of Boost Pricing, and the woman behind the TED Talk. Know your worth and then ask for it, which has over 4 million views and counting. We are going to take a very quick break here. Back in a sec. The human body is pretty amazing. It can heal, rebuild and adapt in ways that even science is still catching up to. Trust me on this, I ran the marathon last year. But let's get real. As we age, those natural processes, they slowed down. That's where Ancient Nutrition's Multi Collagen Advanced Lean comes in. This is not just any collagen supplement. It's powered by clinically studied ingredients that are shown to support fat loss, build lean muscle, reduce joint discomfort, and bonus, improve the look and growth of skin, hair and nails. And right now, Ancient Nutrition is offering 25% off your first order when you go to ancient nutrition.community that's ancientnutrition.community for 25% off your first order. Ancientnutrition.community here is something I've learned. Making good financial choices does not mean having to give up the things you love like delicious home cooked meals. Think you have to spend big bucks or big hours in the kitchen to make that happen? Think again. With everyplate you get flavorful, satisfying dinners like crispy Buffalo ranch chicken or cheesy Mexican street corn hash and they are ready in 30 minutes or less. Every plate is one of my go tos for busy weeks when I don't want to overspend or fall into the what's for dinner spiral. What are you waiting for? Dig into these flavor packed meals your household will love. New customers can enjoy this special offer of only $1.99ameal. Go to everyplate.com podcast and use the code HERMONEY1 99 to get started. This is applied as a discount on your first box. Limited time only. Casey, welcome.

[Kasey Brown]

Thank you Jean. I'm so delighted to be here.

[Jean Chatzky]

It's great to have you here. I want to start with that TED Talk, which everyone should watch by the way. You started by saying no one will ever pay you what you're worth. They'll pay you what you think you're worth and you control their thinking. I love that. But how do you actually do it?

[Kasey Brown]

Yeah, so the key is to that statement, like whatever value we create, whatever value we provide for our employer or for our customers, internal, external, in absence of their recognition of that value is really limited. So they'll never pay you what you're worth. They'll only ever pay you what they think you're worth. That can feel like a really disempowering thing for people to hear, like it's out of my control. But I think that's only out of your control if you abdicating, influencing what they think about your worth. And so in that TED talk I talk about a simple formula which is define plus tell equals earn. So the idea there is to define clearly what value you generate, what ways you help your company, what ways you help your boss, what problems and headaches and hassles you eliminate by your talent and your hard work. And then to tell that, to share that information in the appropriate way, diplomatically and professionally, such that you're able to command the salary you deserve.

[Jean Chatzky]

Well, let's go into detail on both of those points.

[Kasey Brown]

Yeah.

[Jean Chatzky]

So when we're defining our value, I kind of think of it in two buckets. I think about, because I'm a numbers person, I guess I think about the money that you're making the company and the money that potentially you're saving the company. But I may be very, very limited in that viewpoint. How do you think about it?

[Kasey Brown]

Well, I think like you, so I'm an engineer, so I'm a numbers person too. I think the degree to which we can quantify our impact and that that might mean dollars, might mean cost savings or earnings or revenue earnings, it could be a very direct line of sight to dollars. But there are all kinds of other quantifiable impacts we can have, including how much time is saved, how many customers are served. It depends on what your role is in the company. But there of quantifiable, pretty tangible ways that we can impact the value through our work and through our talent. The thing that gets overlooked a lot is some of the more intangibles or the more difficult to quantify elements that generate a lot of value. I think even though it's hard to put a number to those, they shouldn't be overlooked in our process of defining or telling things like how we contribute to the healthy culture and how we support team or other things like that.

[Jean Chatzky]

Well, I think if you follow the breadcrumbs far enough, even those things become quantifiable. Because if you're responsible for a team and your team is not leaving and your company doesn't have to replace that team, we know there's an enormous cost to hiring. Right. So you follow the breadcrumbs long enough and eventually you do get to some statistics that you should be able to use. A lot of women have problems with the tell part. We think, I don't want to toot my own horn. We think my work should speak for itself. It doesn't.

[Kasey Brown]

Those are exactly the the kinds of things. And the TED talk came out of noticing in my work with business owners that women business owners spoke about their value differently than the male business owners that I worked with. They said things just like you said, I don't want to toot my own horn. I want to let the work speak for itself. It feels like bragging, if keep my head down, work hard and produce value, those rewards and recognition will naturally come. And it started me down a journey of researching how differently male owned businesses and women owned businesses are rewarded financially, which fascinated me. Because the idea that when, even when we're in charge and we're the boss and we're setting the price tag that we're underpaid was really defied logic to me, like how can when we're in charge still be a gender wage gap? And it started me down the rabbit hole of understanding the sort of societal and psychological stories that we are told and that we tell our. That cost us 20 cents on the dollar, whether we are an employee or an employer.

[Jean Chatzky]

Talk about it a little bit from the perspective of being a business owner because we haven't had that conversation very often on this show. What are the differences in which male versus female owned companies are paid?

[Kasey Brown]

Sure, I think that. So there's a study from 2014 done by Babson College that reflected there was a 20 cent wage gap at that time between male owned businesses and female owned businesses. They posited various reasons in the report that came out about that. What I would say is what I had seen empirically in our work in pricing, training and consulting was the language that women use is very different. I tell a story in the TED Talk of a woman that I had coached who, who said she ran a little web design firm. She actually said those words, a little web design firm. I think in this and lots of other small ways, she was really diminishing herself in the eyes of clients. And it translated into, you know, she, in her words, was practically giving the work away. She showed up small and she spoke about herself and her firm in a small way. And I think that translated directly to dollars.

[Jean Chatzky]

How would you rewrite her language?

[Kasey Brown]

I would root it in value always. And in that case, like using size of the firm as an example, in her mind, little was bad and big was good. First of all, that's not always true. Little can be great, little can be nimble, little can be responsive, little can be personalized. And this is, by the way, this has implications for people who work for companies too. This isn't just for business owners. Any characteristic you want to talk, point out it as a negative. How can. What's the strength of that? How. What is the flip side of that argument that this is really powerful? I only want to talk about attributes as it relates to the value that I'm creating. Because at the end of the day, that's what people pay you for. Whether you're an employee or you're a business owner or you're a salesperson. People say yes and hand you more money if you create extraordinary value. And so how do you both create the most value? But then how do you tell the best story about that? Value such that you can get paid for it. You can have the best product or service in the world. You could be the most valuable employee on the team in the world. If the boss doesn't know it, if the customer doesn't know it, you're going to struggle to be paid what you're worth.

[Jean Chatzky]

In terms of telling your story, in terms of not just getting the balls up to tell your story, but actually finding the right words to tell your story. What do you find works?

[Kasey Brown]

I think it's super important to be authentic to your voice. So sometimes people who are kind of gearing themselves up to go ask for a raise or, or make a big ask for promotion or something are thinking of their, you know, their neighbor who's a great salesperson or their sister in law who tells a good joke. It's like they're trying to channel someone with more bravado than they may naturally feel. And I think that doesn't work because it comes across as artifice. So I think first and foremost is stay true to yourself. Stay true to your personality. Don't try to contrive a different personality so that you can go have this conversation. Be true to yourself. That's number one. That can, by the way, fight against advice. Number two, which is my natural voice is one where I wouldn't speak up and ask for this. My natural voice is one where I wouldn't point at the list of my accomplishments. And so then I think you have to find a find your way to make your natural voice fit the ask. And so for example, for women who would say something like I don't want to toot my own horn or this feels like bragging, I'd say think about the other party. How does what you're doing so serve them? This isn't about you, it's about how you create value for someone else. So if we think of selling and serving, and by the way, every single person is a sell as a salesperson, we're all selling ideas. We're all selling whether you sell a product or service or not, or your own salary and your own and your own talent, we're all selling ideas. And so think of selling as serving, not as trying to get something or trying to manipulate someone or trying to, you're not trying to bilk your employer out of money you don't deserve. You're trying to be paid fairly and justly for the extraordinary value you create. And so if we put ourselves in the shoes of the other party and say, how do we serve? That's a Key to helping to find an authentic way through this conversation. And a second tip on this is to connect with what you love the most about the work you do. What really excites you, what really gives you passion. This can help root us as we're having a conversation that might be a little bit uncomfortable.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I was chuckling because years ago, and this is a bit of a deviation in terms of a story, but years ago, Susie Orman was on QVC and she was selling like gangbusters. So Home Shopping Network, their competitor, came after me and they were like, we're going to develop a line of products, we're going to put you on the air, we're going to teach you how to sell them. I am not that person.

[Kasey Brown]

Right.

[Jean Chatzky]

I'm actually a very good salesperson when it comes to sort of explaining something that I am truly passionate about. Right. The research when it comes to personal finances can make in people's lives. But selling these financial organization products, I was a complete and total disaster because it wasn't authentic, because it was asking me to do something that I just wasn't comfortable doing.

[Kasey Brown]

There are a lot of people who have a pretty visceral reaction against the idea of selling or sales. Like they have a, maybe an idea in their head what that means and they're conjuring some outdated image of a used car salesman or something, which is like rooted in manipulation or rooted in getting somebody to do something counter to their own interests. And if that's what you're ever doing and selling, you're doing it wrong. This is never, ever again, whether you're selling a product or service or you're selling yourself. Never about trying to trick the other party. It's about having the other party authentically connect with what you do and how that helps them. It's all about serving. Selling is serving. Selling is helping the other side get what they want. And if the other side is your boss and they don't want to lose you to another organization, then you're helping them get what they want, which is to retain you and engage you and make you feel valued and connected so that you're helping them, you're helping them get what they want. And if we kind of keep that in our mindset, this isn't smarmy, this isn't slimy, this isn't dirty, this isn't gross, this is helping. I think that can help a lot.

[Jean Chatzky]

One of the things that you have said is that it's unjust to accept mediocre Pay for excellent work. How do you know that the pay is mediocre? And how do we justify or convey that this work is excellent? And in part, I think that's a matter of believing that our work is truly excellent, 100%.

[Kasey Brown]

I think it's an inside job before it's an outside effort. In other words, we have work to do inside or with ourselves or for ourselves. Before we go have a conversation with, with a boss about something different, something changing, there's some really interesting and terrifying research. So there was a recent study. Some Harvard researchers administered an exam to a group of men and a group of women and asked them to estimate the percentage of questions that they got right. And they were told when they were creating this self assessment, that your self assessment is going to be used to determine for employers whether they offer you a job and how much they offer you. Now, these two groups performed identically on the test, virtually identically, not statistically different. And women estimated they got 46% of the questions right. And men estimated that they got 61% of the questions right.

[Jean Chatzky]

Wow.

[Kasey Brown]

And I have one more statistic, and then I'm going to bring it home to your question. Nearly half of men asked if there were an emergency on a commercial airliner. Nearly half of men estimated that they could safely land a commercial airliner. And I think, like, if, you know, you can be tongue in cheek or make a joke about that, but I think if we look at, like, the implication, women are so much harder on ourselves. We have such lower confidence in our ability even than reality, but certainly less than men have. And we, we routinely expect perfection from ourself. I have to check every box. I have to check it twice. I have to check with perfection, like, I'll ask for a raise when all these things are true. We're chasing an impossible standard, like a horizon line that's out in front of us. But when we reach that, the horizon line is moved, we never feel good enough.

[Jean Chatzky]

So frustrating. All right, let's talk about all of this in the context of today's economy. You heard me say at the top of the show that right now, interestingly enough, staying at your job is paying off more than job hopping. That was not true during COVID Job hopping at that point was the way to get a very, very big raise. So how does today's economic climate shape the way that we should think about our salaries?

[Kasey Brown]

It's a great question, and there's a couple of competing things that we'll offer up. One is that because the economy is tightening and customer demand is softening in a lot of economic sectors, a lot of industries, there's less free cash flow to go around, and companies are getting a lot more conservative. So they're not necessarily making a big investment in X or Y or Z and those kind of. With that backdrop, you could see, oh, it's a hard time to ask for a raise. It's a hard time to ask for promotion. But I would offer a counter argument, which is very often a thing they're not deciding to invest on is filling those two open positions on the team. Right. Let's hold off on hiring. We just need to make do with what we have. And making do with what we have means leaning extra hard on the people that are already here holding everything up. And your essentialness, your criticality as a member of the team goes up in difficult times, not down. I think it's not to suggest we're expendable when times are good, but we are essential. Like we're a cornerstone of keeping the ship afloat. When, you know, when the ship is in stormy seas and we're sitting low in the water, they are looking really hard at the team. That's essential to keeping things moving in the right direction. And I think in some ways, that's the. The moment they are most present to your value, which is generally means that's when you have the most power. From a negotiation standpoint, you can't do that in a manipulative way or in an ultimatumy way, but if it's navigated diplomatically and respectfully, it's a great time to ask for a raise if you're in that situation.

[Jean Chatzky]

I think when we feel like we have the least power and the least confidence is when we're going into a job interview, perhaps coming off a layoff. And there are a lot of people who are caught up in a cycle of layoffs right now. What's the pep talk you give yourself?

[Kasey Brown]

You know, I've heard it. I've said it a couple times. I'll say it throughout, because this is always the cornerstone, is the value. What can I do? What. What have I done? How do my unique skill sets align with the needs of this employer? How. How can I solve problems in ways nobody else solves them? What experience and special unique skillset do I bring to bear that is really important and helpful in this situation? And so this isn't just about having these things in your head. A story I told on a stage when you and I met, actually at icann, I told a story about a Woman who was a data analyst who had a lot of trouble around her beliefs, around her own value. She would do the homework, going into performance reviews of like, sort of listing some accomplishments. But she had a lot of self doubt. Our own belief stop us short. It's the old Henry Ford. If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. Like, we can go in and say the right words, but if we don't believe it, we're gonna struggle to have success with it. And her mentor, this woman's mentor had suggested she start keeping an archive of wins. Like, what have I accomplished? What have I learned? How have I grown? What things are being accomplished as a result of my work and my efforts. And the benefit of the archive of wins was less about building this list she could show somebody and more about retraining her own mind around her value so that she wasn't immediately rushing to discount her value or to chase an impossible standard of perfection. So I think, especially if your confidence has taken a hit in the face of a layoff or some other kind of challenging career circumstance and that it's so important to protect confidence and build confidence. Don't think about what isn't true or what you're missing. Every single person applying for that job is not perfect. Every single person applying for that job has a gap somewhere in skill or in experience. Don't focus on what you don't have. Focus on what you do have and build a ton of confidence around it.

[Jean Chatzky]

We are talking with pricing and negotiation expert Kasey Brown. When we come back, we're going to take a turn. We're going to talk about how to price your products and services the right way. And because we've got Casey here, we're also going to talk about tariffs and how they can affect you. Back in a sec. So you all know I travel a lot for work, and that often means I need to get things done from a hotel lobby or an airport lounge. And going online without ExpressVPN is like leaving your laptop unattended at a coffee shop while you run to the bathroom. Most of the time, maybe you're fine. But what if one day you come back and it is just gone? When you connect to public WI fi, your data is not secure. Hackers on the same network can steal your passwords, banking info, even your entire identity. That's why the hermoney team trusts ExpressVPN. It encrypts your Internet traffic and it creates a secure tunnel between your device and the web. And it works on Every device, laptop, phone, tablet. With just one tap. Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com hermoney that's e x p r e s s vpn.com to find out how you can get up to four extra months. Free expressvpn.com hermoney One of the smartest apps to have on your phone in 2025, it's upside. It's an app that gives users the power to earn real money that you can spend however you want on everyday purchases. Whether filling up the tank, shopping for groceries, or grabbing dinner, Upside makes it simple. Just open the app, claim a nearby offer, pay as usual with a card, and snap a photo of the receipt. The cash back adds up fast. Users are earning hundreds of dollars a year. And here is the best part. It stacks with your credit card reward. So it's kind of like double dipping on savings, which of course, we love. Download the free Upside app and use the promo code Hermoney to get an extra 25 cents back for extra for every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's an extra 25 cents for every gallon on your first tank of gas. Using promo code Hermoney. We are back with Kasey Brown, pricing and negotiation expert. So let's start with pricing our own services. Kasey, you said you underpriced yours at first and eventually needed to double your prices. That was what you realized, which scared the hell out of you. How did you come to that realization? And then how did you actually execute?

[Kasey Brown]

I took a look at the work that I was doing for clients, calculated their return, how their profitability had improved as a result of hiring me. This is back when I was a solopreneur, a team of one, and the work that I was doing and how that was generating benefit for them and the return was sort of off the charts. It was like 100x the price tag. And I thought, you know, they need to win. I mean, it can't be 1x the price tag, but it doesn't need to be 100x the price tag. And I revisited a pricing strategy that really had me doubling my price overnight after less than one year in business. And as you said, I was terrified. I was a single mom of two beautiful baby girls. I'm a truck driver's daughter from the wrong side of the tracks. You know, there's no calvary to ride in and save the day. I have this, you know, this new business, and I was really scared, like, what if I fail? And, you know, there's no one there's no one to save me. It's all up to me. And so there was a lot of wrestling with fear and risk and especially if you sell a professional service. In other words, what you're selling is your expertise. You're a digital marketer or you're a, you're a pricing consultant or you're, you know, whatever. A service based business, when we hear no, it can often feel like a very personal rejection. In other words, the customer saying this price is too high, you know, it's not worth it, can feel like you're not worth it. Yep, I don't value you. And so it's very easy in a professional services world to get our identity and our own worth caught up in how others value us. And I had to wrestle through all that. And the kind of, the key outcome of that in terms of advice I would offer is doubts and fears are normal, natural, totally reasonable that you feel that it's just a terrible reason to be underpaid. They don't define your value, they don't define your worth and they shouldn't limit your earning potential. So it's sort of a, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway kind of thing. And I, I confess the first few times I said that new doubled price, I, I felt it in my throat, I felt that tightness in my throat, I felt it in my stomach, but I did it anyway. And, and they stayed, they kept showing up, they kept saying yes because the value was there.

[Jean Chatzky]

I have had the exact same experience and I do think it's a little fake it till you make it right. You've got to just force those numbers out of your mouth and watch as the person on the other side says, okay, no problem. Right, Sounds fine to me. And then you realize, like shit, I should have charged more.

[Kasey Brown]

Well, sure, yeah. When they say yes too easily, it's bad news. But I would say remember that half of men think they can land a commercial airliner. And 61% of men think they got the questions right, compared to 46% if we channel our inner white male counterparts. There's a little bravado there, but the bravado works because it's almost certain in my experience that we underestimate our own value in the eyes of who we're selling our products to, our services to, or ourselves to. We are harder on ourselves. There is more value being created. And so even if you don't a thousand percent believe it when you start doing it and you know, you said, when they said okay, now it's like, well, that has to challenge my assumption that they would never pay. That that is to challenge my assumption that this couldn't work because it just did. And courage is a skill, by the way, there's some really fascinating research. There was an article that came out in Forbes a few years ago. Courage is a skill that can be learned and through repeated practice. I think when it comes to saying a big number out loud that we're scared to tell somebody. If you haven't said it out loud, the first time you say it out loud should not be when you're on a zoom call with your customer. You have to say it out loud, you have to practice it. You have to role play it. Like, if you ask me what's my zip code, I would say my zip code is 43202. Is that number too high or too low? What do you mean? It doesn't matter. It's just a number. Like it. I don't have any emotional connection to whether it starts with a one or a nine. Right. Like none.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yep.

[Kasey Brown]

And I don't think it's realistic that we're going to get to quoting pricing or quoting salary ranges that we're going to have no emotional connection to. But I think if we keep that example in our head of like, we want to move in that direction where the number doesn't have so much heaviness on an emotional level for us, which is rooted in an ability to say no and walk away. If we have no ability to walk away, we'll Always enter price.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah, 100%. All right, let's talk tariffs. We are recording this the week after President Trump got on the phone with the CEO of Walmart and told him that he thought Walmart should really eat the price differences that are due to the tariffs. Now, whether that is going to happen or not, you know far better than I do. Let's just stipulate tariffs are an unknown. They're a moving target at this point. How do you think this is all going to impact the way that we spend our money? And where is it going to impact us most?

[Kasey Brown]

Well, I don't have a perfect crystal ball, obviously. What I can tell you is there's some things about this round of tariffs that are the same as other rounds of tariffs. I think that gives us a clue to what to expect. And there are things about this round of tariffs that are different. And I'll talk about how I think that affects what's going to happen, but it's my best guess, frankly. So the kind of what's the same. So if you look at all of history in the modern era, tariffs have an inflationary effect. They first affect the B2B market and then ultimately the B2C market. And I don't see that that is not going to happen. It's already happening. It's already having an inflationary effect in the B2B market. And the B2C market is right on its heels. There's another reality of that which is, and this is, starts to deal with where things are different. So where things are different is there's so much uncertainty around this. Like tariffs have been announced, paused, unpaused, increased, decreased, repealed. Exceptions have been added. There's been, I have a little chart I'm keeping. There's about 23 different tariff actions that have happened since February. There's more than that, but I've captured the major ones. And that kind of constant change has its own effect that I think is ultimately pretty costly to businesses trying to figure out how to navigate it because they put a plan in place and they put time and effort and resources into building a great plan. And then tomorrow they have to do that again and the next day they have to do that again. And so I think every business owner that I'm speaking to is spending way too much of their available calories, so to speak, on figuring out this chaos. And every calorie they spend there is not a calorie that's available for them to run a world class business and produce world class products and services. So I think it's a, it's a very distracting and time consuming stressor on businesses. It's also making businesses much more risk averse, so they're not spending as much money. So like I said, there may be two open positions and they're not filling them right now because let's just see if we can hang on a little bit longer. They're pausing planned investments, they're slamming their checkbook shut and they're not, not doing discretionary spending. And this is where there's a downstream effect. Even if you don't sell products that are directly affected by tariffs, whether you're manufactured, distributor, if like for example, my company, we are training and consulting company, we don't import products but our, some of our customers do and they're getting more risk averse and they're slamming their checkbook shut. Which means they're saying, they call me and said hey, I know we plan to, to kick off a program this quarter, but we think we want to wait till Q3 or Q4, can you call us back in a couple months? And so this has this, like, this chilling effect, this slowing effect across the whole economic spectrum. And so now my business, we're in the same boat. We're like, well, there were a couple conferences we were going to attend and there was this other thing we're going to do, but we're going to pause some of that spending because, you know, we're seeing a slowing down of some demand. And so there's just no way this isn't going to trickle to every consumer in this country through many of the goods and services that they buy, because costs are going to continue to Rice.

[Jean Chatzky]

Casey Brown, thank you so much for all the great advice. Thank you for being here.

[Kasey Brown]

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

[Jean Chatzky]

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