← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 484: Dividing More Than the House: Erin Levine on the Tiny Financial Details That Can Blow Up Your Divorce
00:36:24
Unpacking the overlooked money mistakes that can cost you in a divorce and how to avoid them.
Loading summary
Transcript40 lines
- [00:03]
Erin Levine
And understand that if you want a long, messy, expensive divorce, that's what lawyers are there for. But you really can be mindful about the process and be transparent with your spouse on how you intend to move through it. And it changes everything. It doesn't mean there's not conflict. There's always going to be conflict. And divorce, that's just how it is. But it also means that you can get through this process without blowing it up.
- [00:32]
Jean Chatzky
Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me today on HerMoney. I'm Jean Chatky and today I want to talk about the things that can really derail a divorce. Not the house, not even the custody battle. I am talking about the credit card points, I'm talking about the family Costco card, the life insurance policy, and yes, that shared Netflix account that, that somehow you keep getting charged for six months after the split, even though you never use it. Yeah, these things may seem minor, but in the world of divorce, it's sometimes the small stuff that can cause the biggest problems. These tiny financial details are often overlooked until they lead to unexpected expenses, drawn out negotiations, and honestly, a whole bunch of boatload of resentment. Divorce is already emotionally exhausting enough. The last thing that you need is a blowout fight over your air miles. Which is why I am so excited to welcome my guest today, Erin Levine. Erin is a divorce lawyer turned legal tech founder who saw how the $50 billion divorce industry profits from conflict and decided to do something about it. She created hello Divorce. It's an online platform that brings together legal tools, financial transparency, and emotional support to help people move through the process with clarity and control. And she's here today to walk us through the most common and most costly financial mistakes that people make when they split up and how to avoid them. Back in a sec. Between work, family, and everything in between, figuring out dinner every night can start to feel like just one more thing on your to do list. List. That's where EveryPlate comes in. At HerMoney, we love solutions that save you time and money. And everyplate does both. You get meals that are fast, flavorful and affordable, like sweet chili chicken with zesty carrots and scallion rice or Banh Mi style tacos with pickled veggies and sweet chili mayo. And they're delivered right to your door. The recipes are clear, they're easy to follow. Every everything comes together in about 30 minutes. No stress and no mystery ingredients. Just good food you'll actually look forward to eating. And here's the best part. You'll spend less on every plate than you would on your normal grocery run or a week worth of takeout. Great meals at a great value. That is something that we can all get behind. What are you waiting for? Dig into these flavor packed meals your household will love. New customers can enjoy this special offer of only $1.99ameal. Go to everyplate.com podcast and use code HERMONEY199 to get started. Applied as a discount on your first box. Limited time only. Hey it's Jean and I've got a question for you. What's your 5 to 9 looking like these days? You know, time after work when you finally get to unwind and reset. Cozy Earth wants to make that time the most comfortable part of the day and I can tell you from personal experience, they're doing a pretty good job. I recently tried Cozy Earth's white king size sheets made from viscose from bamboo and let me just say I get what the hype is about. We were at the beach. The AC went out. Yes, really. And somehow the sheets stayed cool. Upgrade your summer go to cozyearth.com and use code hermoney for up to 40% off best selling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. Trust me, you'll feel the difference the very first night. Sleep cooler Lounge lighter. Stay cozy and we are back. We are talking with Erin Levine, founder of hello Divorce. We are. Erin, welcome.
- [04:54]
Erin Levine
Hi Jean, thanks so much for having me.
- [04:57]
Jean Chatzky
Can we start with the theme of the episode today? These tiny financial landmines that people often overlook in a divorce? I mean, you told me it's not the house or the custody necessarily, but it could be those frequent flyer miles or even all of the different streaming accounts that you may or may not be paying for at this point. Why is it the tiny things that blow up during a divorce?
- [05:24]
Erin Levine
Yeah, all of those things you mentioned. I mean, I think about other things like a patent that you once applied for or startup stock that you might have purchased at one point. It might not be worth anything now, but it can be down the road. And I think it's really because lawyers and blogs and all the information that you generally get about divorce are focused on the big things. They're focused on the kids, they're focused on the house. And there is so much more. These little things that you can miss. They don't only cost you in terms of the value that you're missing out on, but if you have to later engage a lawyer or go to mediation or somehow try to negotiate your right to some of these things, it costs Even more dollars and it takes even more time. So we really want to catch them as early as possible so that we can prepare well for our divorce.
- [06:27]
Jean Chatzky
I think preparation is the key. And let's say you are at the point where you are preparing or you're thinking about preparing. I think we have a lot of women in our community who've come into our finance fix program, for example, because they're thinking about getting a divorce, and they want to make sure they've got a handle on the money when it comes to things like retirement accounts, like pets, like kids and the house. What advice do you give people for getting ahead of the drama?
- [07:03]
Erin Levine
So I want everyone to take an inventory, to think about anything digital, physical accounts, anything that could possibly have value, and anything that you can possibly have a share in, you don't need to know yet. You don't need to know the value. You don't necessarily need to understand how it will be divided or what your share is, or even understand the type of asset, because sometimes that's very confusing and the values do change. All you want to start with is putting together a list of everything that you possibly can think of that might have value. The next step is not necessarily working with a lawyer, because a lot of these assets might actually be unfamiliar to a lawyer. So if you're really confused and you really need help valuing some of these things, the next step would be to meet actually with a certified divorce financial analyst, somebody who is really focused on finding all the assets, valuing the assets, taking a look to see where things might be missing or hidden, and help you move through each of these items that many of which we'll go through today.
- [08:25]
Jean Chatzky
When you're looking for assets that have value, what about the career of your partner?
- [08:32]
Erin Levine
Oh, that's a great place to start. So you want to think about all the things that could be associated with their career or their income. And you might be thinking about this a little bit differently, so please jump in. But I think about it like looking at a pay stub. For example, are there accrued vacation time or paid time off? That's an asset. Does it appear that they are contributing to any type of retirement account? Is the employer contributing as well? So I like people to take a look at credit reports, to take a look at pay stubs, which are required in the divorce process. So if you don't get them beforehand, you will get them during the divorce process. And then, of course, tax returns and tax transcripts to try to identify what may or may not be there.
- [09:25]
Jean Chatzky
I Think I was actually thinking of it a little bit differently. So let's say you're married to a lawyer or you're married to an accountant, you've been together for a really long time, they have grown in their career, they've got considerable earning potential ahead of them. Is it reasonable to expect that you would get a share of that?
- [09:51]
Erin Levine
Well, it's reasonable to think that if they've built a business, even if it's on professional services, that the community, if you're in a community property state, or the marriage, if you're in an equitable distribution state, owns a portion of that business. And at some point we need to value it and determine how the shares are allocated. It's also reasonable to expect that if one spouse gave up time in the workplace so that they could attend to household tasks or raise children or move across the country to help their spouse advance in their career, anything like that, that you can expect and push for spousal support. It's also reasonable that if they've accrued anything in their retirement or any other benefits through their employment up until the point of separation or in some cases, divorce, that portion is split and shared. And depending on your state, either equally or in some possibilities, you might even receive a larger share, depending on your future earning capacity, your health, your age, that kind of thing.
- [11:07]
Jean Chatzky
And that can get really tricky. I'm working on a column right now for AARP about Quadros, which are qualifying domestic relations orders. They're legal documents that are used to split pension and 401k assets. And a lot of people run into a big roadblock there. So just know that they exist and know that if you go down the Quadro road, you may need an attorney who is specifically trained in writing quadros in order to get it right. We're in the middle of this spike in what the media has decided to call gray divorce. There was a 2022 study published in the Journal of Gerontology, found that 36% of the people in this country who are going through a divorce are 50 or older. How do we need to think about divorce differently if we're in our 50s versus in our 30s or even early 40s?
- [12:10]
Erin Levine
Yes, these are such great questions. If we can just circle back to the Quadro for a minute. I have seen this come up so many times. For whatever reason, it is standard practice by most lawyers and most divorce platforms to wait until your divorce is finalized before you do the qualified domestic relations order, the order that helps you to divide your retirement, and by that point, your Spouse may have moved, lawyers may not be on the case anymore. You might have drafted a qualified domestic relations order that the financial institution doesn't accept. And then you can find yourself five, ten years down the road when you do need to retire, unable to access your portion of the retirement account, or even if you're the person holding the account, unable to withdraw because the retirement wasn't actually divided properly. So just if there's anything you take from this conversation, take that, the divorce decree itself, the divorce judgment, even if it says that your retirement is going to be divided, it won't actually get divided until you complete the quadro process.
- [13:30]
Jean Chatzky
It's a landmine that I gotta say I did not know existed until I sort of got a tip that sent me down the rabbit hole on this story. So thank you for weighing in on that. When it comes to gray divorce, just to sort of circle back to that question, how do you see things differently from the vantage point of somebody who's in their 30s versus somebody who's 50 and beyond?
- [13:53]
Erin Levine
Yeah, we certainly have seen a massive rise in, let's call it gray divorce on our platform. And in your 30s, divorce tends to be more about rebuilding, starting over. In retirement, it's less about starting over and more about starting from experience. It's about damage control and it's about preserving what's left. It's also about re imagining your goals of what retirement will look like because it's likely that in your retirement you expected to spend a significant amount of money and a significant amount of time with your spouse. And now we need to look at what does it really mean to enjoy my next chapter. What can we do? So more older divorces we also see often involve bigger asset pools and retirement impacts. So we really want to focus on how we can get to retirement reset and what we can do to control for a decline in income if that's going to happen. What will our standard of living look like, whether or not we keep the house versus the retirement? And we need to think through some of our other long term costs. Long term care, life insurance, alimony, health care coverage. We can't just fly by the seat of our pants. But we really need to take these under consideration and plan for them.
- [15:24]
Jean Chatzky
I think that level of prep, Aaron, takes you so far. But are there other things that you encourage people, particularly women, to do?
- [15:34]
Erin Levine
Yes, absolutely. So we know we need to document everything, not just assets, but timelines, emails, screenshots. If there's an asset that you think your spouse might not disclose, take a screenshot of a piece of mail that you see come in that may or may not be an asset that your spouse has or that the marriage has. I also want you to secure sensitive documents like birth certificates, tax returns, any contracts or deeds or policies or anything that you have access to. Let's store those somewhere safe or in digital copies, securely. It's a really good idea, if you don't have it while you're preparing for divorce to open a bank account in your name only. And while you have access to joint funds, assuming that you do putting some money in that account, it doesn't mean that you're hiding. In fact, you can't hide. Ultimately, you will have to disclose it and have to be transparent about it. And some of it might go back to your spouse. But I rather have you to have access to that money to be able to spend on ordinary necessities of life than have to beg or ask your spouse or the court for it. And then don't forget about building a support network that's going to be really key throughout all of this, because divorce doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey. And you're really going to need and want the support of the people that you love, maybe even an online group or a divorce coach, somebody who can really help you through this time period.
- [17:16]
Jean Chatzky
How do you know if you can actually afford to get divorced at this stage of life? I mean, those. That's sort of where I think this analysis that you're doing is, is leading. And quite frankly, I know personally some couples that have stayed together because they don't feel like they can afford to both live as well apart as they're living together.
- [17:42]
Erin Levine
You won't be able to live as well. Nobody comes out of divorce unscathed. The question to ask yourself is, can I afford not to divorce? What does my life look like? Because financial considerations is everything that everyone listening to this podcast is thinking about, that practical aspect. But we also need to think about, like, what will my life look like going forward? Am I celebrated for who I am? Can I live my best life? Is there financial or emotional abuse happening? So what would it look like to delay your divorce? Because I can tell you this, over 10,000 people have divorced using the hello Divorce platform. Over 50% of them were over the age of 45. And not one, even though we consistently stay in touch and survey and connect, has said, gosh, I wish I was still married to my spouse.
- [18:36]
Jean Chatzky
It's a good place to take a break, Erin, because when we come back, I want to talk about how the hello Divorce platform is helping women navigate the process with less cost and more clarity. Years ago, for an article in Smart Money magazine, I wrote a piece about do it Yourself Divorce. This is not that. This is something in between hiring a really pricey lawyer and doing it yourself. And I think it's really interesting and important for our listeners to understand the tools at their disposal. Back in a sec. At Hermoney, we are all about making smarter choices and that doesn't stop at your budget. It also means knowing what you're cooking with. That's why we love Caraway's Non Toxic cookware and kitchen essentials. Here's a scary stat. Over 70% of the cookware sold in the United States is coated in ptfe. That's the stuff that releases toxins in just two and a half minutes of overheating. Well, no thank you. With Caraway's ceramic cookware, you're getting premium quality quality without the scary chemicals. If you've been eyeing their Internet famous 12 piece cookware set, now's the perfect time to buy. You can shop Caraway risk free, enjoy fast free shipping, easy returns and a 30 day trial. Plus, if you visit Carawayhome Hermoney, you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com/hermoney or use code Hermoney at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern At Hermoney, we talk a lot about how financial clarity is the first step toward building real wealth. That's hard to do when your money is scattered across five different apps, which is why we are so excited to share Monarch Money with our community. It's not just a budgeting tool, it's a full financial command center that helps you see all your accounts, investments, credit cards and goals in one clear, easy to navigate dashboard. Monarch gives you the kind of visibility most people don't realize they're missing. Whether it's overspending on dining out subscriptions you forgot or wondering why your savings never quite grow the way you planned. Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code hermoney@monimalmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with code hermoney and we are back. We are talking with Erin Levine, founder of hello Divorce. Hello Divorce is an online platform that you created after being frustrated, essentially by the way, that the legal industry profits from people's worst moments. What was it that you were seeing Aaron, in the, in the industry. And how is hello Divorce working to change it?
- [21:53]
Erin Levine
Yes. So I've been a lawyer for 20 years and I tried everything to kind of help change the system because what I saw early on were a few things. The first is that divorce costs on average $20,000 per person. That's on average. And only 25% of Americans actually have a lawyer. So if you are able to hire one, it's very, very expensive. The second big issue is that divorce is so contentious. The only way through the system to really resolve conflict is to throw your spouse under the bus to focus on all the things that went wrong in your relationship instead of how do we move us both forward in a way that makes sense for each of us. The third big issue is that divorce, as many of your listeners know, is far more than the law. It is finance, it is emotions, it is life insurance policies, home health insurance, all this stuff. It's a massive life transition. And there was no one place that you could go to to really focus on transitioning your entire not just make sure that you access your legal rights. So my goal became to help people opt out of this system entirely through a collaborative process. Doesn't work for everyone, but it worked for a lot of people. But still the prices were high and it was very complex. So I built hello Divorce so that we could combine the best of technology, the best of AI, with the right experts at the right time to help you move through divorce and with everything that you could possibly need from divorce preparation, checklists, worksheets, through the legal and financial logistics. And then of course to help you with that next part of your transition.
- [23:49]
Jean Chatzky
Just give us a brief sense of how it works, but also how, how is it different? You know, if you are in many states, you see billboards for 99 divorces, right? How is this different from that?
- [24:04]
Erin Levine
Yeah, so there's definitely the 99 divorces. Those are great if you have no assets, no kids and you're in a state where the forms are fairly easy to complete. But what we do know, and hello divorces in all 50 states is that almost every state has a process to get divorced. And usually that process includes 30, 40, 50 forms, plus financial disclosures, plus actually getting to an agreement that makes sense for you that's going to set you with a solid of a financial foundation as possible moving forward. So that's really what we focus on at hello Divorce. There is a DIY component in that you have self service tools available to you. You will complete an online guided interview that will automate your first draft of your forms and your finances. But then our experts step in at every step of the way to file your documents, to coordinate with your spouse, if your spouse has joined the platform as well, and to provide you the type of legal advice, financial advice, real estate advice, life coaching, or even mediation that you might need to get through a difficult portion of your divorce. And once you get to an agreement, we of course ensure that your documents are prepared accurately, that you have an access to a lawyer if you'd like them, to review your forms. And then we submit them to the court and file them for you.
- [25:43]
Jean Chatzky
How much does it cost?
- [25:45]
Erin Levine
Yeah. So it's not just a cheaper alternative or experience. It's really a much better way to walk through the divorce process. And don't take it from me. Read our reviews. It costs anywhere between $400 and $4,000, depending on your plan. So software only. $400 fully expert guided with a mediator to help resolve conflict or broker a deal between you and your spouse would be the 4,000 DOL.
- [26:16]
Jean Chatzky
And that's for each spouse?
- [26:18]
Erin Levine
No, that's all together.
- [26:20]
Jean Chatzky
That's all together. So if your spouse comes in, it could be $4,000 for the two of you together, correct?
- [26:27]
Erin Levine
Yes. And that includes all of your paperwork, all of the filing, five hours with experts who you can mix and match, and on occasion, people might need or want some additional expert help. And then you can purchase that a la carte. And that ranges anywhere from 150 to $400 an hour.
- [26:47]
Jean Chatzky
Well, when we hear about expensive divorces, what's usually the cause? I mean, is it insane attorneys fees? Is it that people just can't agree on things? I mean, and no matter what way you choose to get divorced, what's the best way to minimize the cost?
- [27:09]
Erin Levine
Yeah, how you start your divorce lays the foundation for everything that comes after. So what happens is that most people start their divorce, they get a document that says X versus Y, you are being sued. They get those documents either at their place of work or in front of their children. And it immediately sends this visceral reaction through our body. Spider flight. We feel like we have to lawyer up with the most aggressive attorney in town because we have to make decisions right now. Our fear gets in the way, overwhelm, shame, all of those kind of things. So the best thing you can do is remind yourself that unless there's an emergency, I mean a real emergency, like you have absolutely no access to capital, credit, finances, or your kids have been Kidnapped. Unless there's the emergency, you are going to have plenty of time to make decisions that are well thought out, that you have advice on. And so take a step back, take a big deep breath, and understand that if you want a long, messy, expensive divorce, that's what lawyers are there for. But you really can be mindful about the process and be transparent with your spouse on how you intend to move through it. And it changes everything. It doesn't mean there's not conflict. There's always going to be conflict. And divorce, that's just how it is. But it also means that you can get through this process without blowing it up.
- [28:35]
Jean Chatzky
A study from the American Psychological association found that women initiate 70% of the divorces in the United States. Why do you think that is? And what do women have to be more aware of or more prepared for than men?
- [28:55]
Erin Levine
Yes, absolutely. We see on our platform 70% as well. And in cases where the wife is college educated, we see it happening in 90% of marriages. And what we're also seeing is it's not necessarily some big issue that happened. I mean, sometimes there is, but usually it's not cheating or abuse. It truly is a wife looking at their life and saying, is this really who I want to spend the rest of my life? Like, if I live for another 20, 30 years, do I want to look back and will I regret not choosing a different path? So they tend to initiate after three to five, maybe even seven or 10 years of thinking about it. So a lot of long standing issues, unrealized dreams, and then what makes it particularly challenging is all the things that women face out in the real world when it comes to financial inequality, increased childcare burdens and childcare costs, all of that exists in divorce too. So on average, women end up with a lot less income than men do. And it takes them a much longer time to bounce back. But even with women knowing this, they still, in many cases, they still tend to file first and after a very considered process.
- [30:20]
Jean Chatzky
I think one of the things, and I don't know if it's still as much of an issue as it was when I was first reporting on divorce, but there, there tends to be an issue. It comes to the biggest assets that a couple has, and there are two. There's the house, if you own a house, and there's the pension or the retirement accounts. Often I've seen women say, I need to take that, I need the house. I need the house because my kids grew up in the house. I live in this house, I need the house. But I've always felt that it's a mistake to not understand the value of those retirement accounts comparatively. Can you talk about that a little bit?
- [31:03]
Erin Levine
Yes, and I'm so glad that you bring it up because it literally comes up all the time. People want the house because it feels safe, it feels familiar. They know that there's equity in it. But houses don't pay the bills, retirement accounts do. So we need to do a couple things. Number one is don't talk to a lawyer about this. I'm a lawyer and I didn't go to law school because I'm amazing with finances. I want you to talk to either a divorce real estate expert. We offer them at hello Divorce or a certified divorce lending professional to help you figure out what the house will cost now and long term. If you sell the home now and downsize now, you may be able to invest that equity or use it to stabilize your retirement. So equity in the house is treated very different than equity in a pre or post tax retirement account. So we want to look at a couple things. What is the actual value of the retirement account? Because $100,000 in a retirement account versus $100,000 of equity in the house could be very different depending on tax treatment. And then we want to look at what will it cost long term for me to keep the house? What if the market drops? What if interest rates go up because we have to refinance to take our spouse's name off the property? What might maintenance costs look like? You know, there's. There's so much to think, think through here. It can't just be whether or not it looks good on paper.
- [32:35]
Jean Chatzky
Last question, Erin. As in all industries, there seems to be this whole new vocabulary emerging around divorce. We've seen quiet quitting marriage. We've seen paw renting agreements, not parenting paw renting. What trends are you seeing at hello divorce? And how. How should people be approaching the process differently in 2025 than in prior years?
- [33:05]
Erin Levine
It's funny that you say this. We're seeing a major shift. For example, I spoke to one law firm owner who for years and years and years made a ton of money on a men's rights sort of marketing theme. Right? We will fight for you. We'll get you everything you deserve. And more recently, he said that's not working so much anymore. Because in divorce, men do have rights. And also, most people don't want a long, messy, expensive divorce. They are looking for other options. They just need to ensure that they're really protecting themselves as well. So One trend that we're seeing is a real shift in how we approach divorce. There isn't necessarily that feeling that you have to, you know, lawyer up with the most aggressive attorney in town to have a positive result. Parenting. You stole my thunder here because that is a big one on our site. What are the arrangements going to be for pets? How are we going to share the costs? Is there visitation? Guys, that's a tough one and gets messy. But will there be visitation and what will the care plans look like? We see quiet quitting marriage all the time. This is what I was referring to earlier. This is romantic separation. People who have now lived for many months, usually years, without really engaging in their relationship. It's been more transactional and those are probably the two biggest ones that we're seeing these days.
- [34:34]
Jean Chatzky
It's a fascinating conversation, Erin. I know that our listeners have a ton of questions, so I just want to thank you in advance because I know that you are coming back to answer some questions for our listeners in the special Mailbag episode All About Divorce. Thank you for this conversation. We appreciate it.
- [34:55]
Erin Levine
Thank you so much, Jean.
- [34:57]
Jean Chatzky
If you're considering a divorce or starting to prepare for one, hello Divorce is offering you 10% off of any of their legal plans or certified divorce financial analyst services. Their plans range range from $400 for a do it yourself option to 4,000 for a fully expert LED process that includes everything from legal support to financial guidance. It's modern, affordable and built to give you clarity when you need it most. Just head to hellodivorce.com hermoney and use the code HERMONEY at checkout. That's hellodivorce.com HERMONEY and use the code hermoney at the at checkout. If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me and if you're ready to keep the Money conversation going, HerMoney has three amazing programs designed to help you feel more confident and in control of your money. There's Finance Fix. It's our four week coaching program program that helps you rethink your spending, find hidden savings and make smarter choices for the future. Our pre Retirement program runs for six weeks and walks you through building a retirement strategy that's personalized for your next chapter. Finally, there's Investing Fix, our investing club for women. It meets every other week on Zoom. It is a supportive space to learn, ask questions, grow your investing confidence and build your portfolio. And your first month is absolutely free. These programs are truly helping level the playing field for women financially. I'd love for you to join us. Hermoney is produced by Haley Pascalides, and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.