← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 488: 18k In Credit Card Debt: Why I Was Finally Honest
00:35:10
Debt, shame, and the creative challenges that can change your life.
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- [00:02]
Jamie Feldman
I think capitalism allows us to not be creative. Right? Like capitalism says you want to catch up with your friend. Well, here's a restaurant where you could go buy a meal, pay $20 for a cocktail. And it's so easy. Look, it's right here. You can do it. But if you're not spending that money and you're not going to restaurants, suddenly you have to use your brain a little bit and say, well, how can I catch up with this person in a way that feels good and, and connective without doing the thing that I've been brought up to do socially?
- [00:36]
Jean Chatzky
Hey everybody. Welcome to Her Money. Very glad to have you with us for this episode. Cause it's an important one. We are talking about debt. And in this country we don't just carry debt, we carry shame. We are told that if we are in debt, it's because we are irresponsible, undisciplined, or simply not trying hard enough. And the advice is often the same, budget better, spend less, work more. But what happens when you do all of that and it still doesn't work? Should we really be blaming ourselves or should we be pointing fingers at the system which asks us to spend money to prove our worth in the world and gives us higher and higher credit limits in order to do it? That's where my guest today comes in. Jamie Feldman is a writer, producer and one of the voices behind the incredible new narrative podcast Debt Heads alongside her friend and co creator Rachel Webster. They describe it as a true crime investigation into the systemic murder of our parents bank accounts. Here's the backstory. After being laid off from her job at the Huffington Post In 2021, Jamie found herself with about 18,000 in consumer debt and no clear path out. So she started talking about it honestly on TikTok. Her story struck a nerve. Now her videos on paying down debt have more than a million views. She's going to read us in on how she she got it done. We're going to pause there, take a quick break. You know that feeling when you walk in the door, kick off your shoes and just melt into your favorite spot? For me, that's my bed. Especially now that I have Cozy Earth sheets. Cozy earth bedding made from viscose from bamboo is temperature regulating. Very important. It's also buttery soft and don't even get me started on their bubble cuddle blanket. It's got this plush feel that turns an ordinary night on couch into a full on self care moment when the world feels chaotic. Cozy earth helps reset. And once you Feel it. There's no going back. Plus it's a risk free upgrade. You get a hundred night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty. But personally I don't think you're going to need the return policy. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code hermoney for up to 40% off. That's cozyearf.com code her money. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Because your bed should be more than a place to sleep. It should be your happy place. Cozy Earth makes that possible. Lately I've been traveling a lot. Speaking at conferences, meeting with teams, logging in from hotel rooms and airports and more coffee shops than I can count. And every time I open my laptop to check email or review slides, I. I know I'm taking a risk if I'm not protected. Public WI fi may be convenient, but it's also one of the easiest places for hackers to grab your personal info. Passwords, credit cards, even bank logins. That's why I love ExpressVPN. It creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your devices and the Internet so you can stay connected and confident no matter where you are. Simple to use, just one click and it works across your phone, laptop and tablet. And if you travel or work on the go like I do, this is one tool that you need in your digital toolkit. Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.comhermoney that's E X P R E S S vpn.comhermoney to find out how you can get up to 4 months extra free. Expressvpn.comhermoney we are back with Jamie Feldman, writer, producer, co host of the Debt Heads podcast. Jamie, welcome.
- [04:51]
Jamie Feldman
Hi. Thank you so much for having me.
- [04:53]
Jean Chatzky
Thank you so much for being here. I want to start at the beginning of your story. You've said that for years. You just avoided talking about your debt. You didn't open your statements, which many people don't. You made minimum payments. You kept living your life. What finally made you stop and look at the numbers? Was there a moment where you just said I cannot do this anymore?
- [05:20]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, it's funny because I feel like not everybody has this like aha, breakdown moment, but I actually remember exactly when it was. I was out on a walk with my friend Rachel who's the co creator of Deadheads and we talk about everything. I think there's really not a topic that we haven't covered over the, you know, decade plus many years of our friendship and money just never came up. And it wasn't really something I was conscious of. Obviously I wasn't actively avoiding it or thinking about it. It truly had this cognitive dissonance going on where I just was not thinking about it. And so it wasn't coming up. And I was dealing with it, I wasn't dealing with it. And as you mentioned, I got laid off from my long term job. That provided me with enough security and enough money to sort of keep floating on without really examining what my spending patterns were, where my money was going, how much money I was making and how much was going out. And after I got laid off, I was lucky to get some freelance jobs because I had been in the industry for so long and so it didn't really have such a big effect on me. And then I was walking in the park with Rachel. I had checked my bank account that morning, which was not a common practice for me at the time. And I was almost maxed out on this $16,000 credit card limit that I had in one of my cards. And I just had no way of figuring it out. I had no income coming in. I had no jobs lined up at the time. And I just had this panic attack, for lack of better word, in the middle of Prospect park in Brooklyn on the beautiful summer day. We were on a walk that we've done dozens, maybe hundreds of times before. And I just looked at her and said, I, I have to tell you something. And it's. It suddenly became really clear to me that all of the issues that I had been kind of not attributing to my money health, but attributing to just a mental health issue were so directly correlated. And I hadn't even. That was the first time I ever connected the dots on that. And so it was, you know, just a beautiful sunny day and I was having a breakdown.
- [07:36]
Jean Chatzky
I think the hair on my arms is standing up because I was living on 11th between 8th and the park, right off Prospect park. In my early 20s when I had the same experience. Oh yeah, I had racked up credit card debt equal to about a half year worth of my salary. And my roommate, who was in finance, I think I didn't pay the phone bill. And that's what brought us to sort of a moment where we just sat down and I fessed up to having this debt. But it's, it is really hard. So I get the panic and I get the. I get the desire not to talk about it for as long as you possibly can. You also shared something that struck me as, oh, my God, been there, done that. That during your early 20s and even your 30s, you didn't say no to things, didn't say no to bachelorette parties or birthday dinners or brunches, any of it. And I think so many of us know that feeling of saying yes to avoid being left out or to avoid looking like we're struggling. Why do you think that this pressure is so strong?
- [09:00]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, first of all, I just want to say maybe there's some kind of energy in Prospect park that's like pulling the truth out. Like, maybe there's something to it. But, you know, it's still something I struggle with today. Obviously not as much as I did in my early 20s. I think, truthfully, in the beginning, when these events start happening, there is this excitement like, oh, this is what we're told is built into our social fabric. This is the way we connect with people. This is the way that we show love, is by showing up. And that's true in some ways. Like, you do want to show up for your community. But when the ask to show up is so. Is like, you cannot disconnect showing up from spending money or a financial commitment. Oftentimes when you don't know if you have the funds to really show up in that way, there's this feeling that, like, if I don't do this, that I'm not going to be included or this person will be mad at me, or this person won't invite me ever again, or this person thinks that my worth and my. What they love about me is that I. I come to things, I show up to things. And that was so built into my personality. I think it's built into a lot of people's personality that, like, you're fun and you want to go out, and there's a part of you that does want to do a lot of these things. And if you don't have any financial education and you're given a credit card and you can ostensibly do it, there's not something that's really stopping you from doing it. Aside from the fact that now you're going to owe this money later, that's a problem for later you.
- [10:30]
Jean Chatzky
Right, the future you.
- [10:32]
Jamie Feldman
Exactly. Future.
- [10:33]
Jean Chatzky
You can deal with this.
- [10:34]
Jamie Feldman
Oh, I gave future me so much to do. She had so much to do. She was going to be really busy at some point figuring all this stuff out. But for now, it was like, I can't say no. I have to go. These people are important to me. My value is wrapped up in what I do and do not do with them and for them. And so I think there's a uniquely female tendency, I think, to have this sort of codependent relationship with people where their needs trump your own needs and you know what, what actually is best for your well being. And if you don't have the tools and you're not doing the work to remove yourself from that, it's really easy to just fall into this pattern.
- [11:17]
Jean Chatzky
I think before we get to what you did to sort of turn the corner, you mentioned how when you had that panic attack, it wasn't just about your money, it was about a lot of different aspects of your mental health that were tied up in a knot maybe because of your money. Could you talk about that a little more? Because I think it's really interesting.
- [11:46]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, like I said, I mean, I think for most of my life I thought that I had money problems and I had mental health problems and that they were two completely different things that were not connected in any way. Right. I'm sure I worried about money, I thought about money. I think I had anxiety when I would hand over a credit card and not know if it was going to get approved or not. But I didn't think about that as having an effect on my day to day life. It seems so crazy to me now because it's so connected to everything. But yeah, I think after a lot of work and a lot of thinking and a lot of talking, a lot of therapy and after this moment of clarity of like, I don't know what I'm doing with my money and I have no idea what I'm spending or if my spending is in line with my values. There was this whole process of me figuring out not only what my values are, but how they got that way, how I was living my life in a way that wasn't true to who I really wasn't and why that was, you know, I had, I was dealing and I continue to deal with a lot of grief from the loss of my father as a child. And there has been a lot of, I think, consequences of that. Not only with money, but with relationships or with men or with trying to get people to love me and see me and validate me and accept me. And in so many ways that translated to spending money that I didn't have to be included in things that I. That weren't really serving me, but that I thought I needed in order to be part of the group. And so yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it's so. Anything I can now anything I can think of is so directly connected to money. It's like, I can't believe that I didn't have that awareness. Sometimes the biggest revelations are the simplest ones. But it really was. Yeah.
- [13:27]
Jean Chatzky
I mean, so often it feels like a big hole. We're lonely, we're sad, we're angry, and we can spend a little money and we can patch that hole, and it's not going to last for a very long time, but we can do it. And in the moment, it tends to feel. It tends to feel good. I mean, I've done a lot of research into why people are the way they are with money, and I have come to believe it's a real combo platter of nature and nurture. And, you know, nurture is. Is basically your money story. It's the way that you were raised. It's what you experienced in your home of origin. You went through a lot. How did yours origin story play into all of the things that you experienced in later life? And can you tell us a little bit about it?
- [14:23]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, absolutely. And I think if there's anything that's been extremely helpful and meaningful to me, it's that since confronting the money, I've also been able to confront a lot of other painful things that I never really talked about. I think. I think for a lot of people, especially with grief or especially with mental health, it's like if you don't ask a question or if you don't talk about it, you're making up your own narrative. Right. So money was a huge, constant problem in my house growing up. It was what seemed to be the basis of every argument in my house between my parents. There was a lot of other things going on. But, you know, as a child, you hear something about the bills and you're like, oh, this is all about money all the time. And because I hadn't really processed the trauma that was happening in my house, the trauma that happened in my childhood, I felt very alone in understanding and making sense of my life. And it wasn't until I started confronting the money issue that I actually thought to myself, I just have written this narrative about what my childhood was like and why it was like that. And I haven't spoken to my mom, who was the only other person in the room to really get to the bottom of whether or not that was true. And I'm really grateful to be making this podcast because we went and interviewed my mom and we had this conversation, and the conversation we had was not even planned. We weren't planning to interview My mom for the podcast, which even goes to show you, like, how much I'd written this narrative that didn't include her. And we went to her house and we had this really emotional breakthrough together where I gleaned a better understanding of some of the decisions that she made to protect me when I was a child that I sort of had made up my own stories about over the years.
- [16:16]
Jean Chatzky
Like what?
- [16:17]
Jamie Feldman
Just about the decisions that she made or the feelings that she had. You know, my dad struggled with addiction his whole life, and that made my house very. A very chaotic and tumultuous place. And it put my mom in a pretty impossible situation. But I was angry at her because I felt like she was making decisions for herself. A lot of the time. I felt left out of the story a little bit. And when I sat down and talked to her and I realized that, of course, course, all the decisions that she ever made were for us and for me, it changed my understanding of her as a person, as a mother. You know, it changed my relationship with her, I think, permanently. And it really just opened my eyes to the ways in which we don't. I mean, not to use this kind of like flippant term, but like closed mouths don't get fed. Like, if I'm not reaching out and talking to people, if I'm not being honest about my feelings or I'm not asking questions, I'm just making things up. I'm making things up about my money story. I'm making things up about my childhood. I'm making things up about who I am and what my. My worth is, what my value is in society and with my community. And I was in that sort of cycle for such a long time where I was felt so isolated and alone. Cause I was afraid to ask.
- [17:43]
Jean Chatzky
When you started talking, you didn't just talk to your mom, you talked to the world.
- [17:49]
Jamie Feldman
Right.
- [17:49]
Jean Chatzky
You just started talking really candidly on TikTok and you found an audience. Why do you think that this resonated with so many people?
- [18:00]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, I mean, I always joke that I, you know, I'm a theater kid at heart and there's just like nothing I can do that doesn't have an audience. And I also don't know how to be anything except like immediately deep dive vulnerable. So it's sort of there never really felt like another option. But I think people really felt seen and inspired by somebody who wasn't trying to give them advice. You know, I never claimed to be an expert. I still, even now, I don't claim to be an expert. I don't think that anybody should look to me for personal finance advice. And I think that was really refreshing to people because I think, especially at the time most, the most of the financial content that even was existing on TikTok, which feels like a really raw, authentic place as compared to some other social media apps, it still was like, here are 10 things you should do to get your budget in order. And I was like, here's how I fucked up and here's how I'm just trying to exist and change my situation, but mostly change my life and my feelings. Not. It wasn't just about finances. It was about emotions. It was about relationships and self worth and all of the things that come along with money but are usually packaged in this way that are like the only way through it is to participate in a system that continues to prove that it's not really serving you. So I think it just felt different to people maybe.
- [19:27]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah, I think, I think you allowed them to accept what was going on in their life. In your podcast, you talk about the people hiding in the shadows. I think those people hiding in the shadows were actually grateful that you were airing the way that they felt.
- [19:44]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, I think so. And it's funny because I've written so extensively about every single thing in my life. I've written about grief, I wrote about dating, I read about body image. And I had never written about money before. And I found this like, old post that I had shared when I worked at the Huffington Post where I was looking for people to share their money stories with me. This was years before and I was like, my money story was sitting there the whole time just lurking under the surface and I just could not. I could not see it. So, yeah, I think it resonated and I'm really grateful that it did because I might still not be talking about it, had it. Not really.
- [20:20]
Jean Chatzky
We're going to pause there, take a quick break. When we come back, Jamie's going to walk us through the creative community powered challenges that she used, start turning things around and how this experience has changed the way that she thinks about her debt. So here's a little behind the scenes moment. My producer, Hailey, got married a couple years ago, and like so many couples, she and her husband had no idea where to even start when it came to merging their finances. Different accounts, different spending styles, and a lot of awkward. You spent how much this week on takeout conversations? But then they found Monarch Money and it changed everything. It became their go to tool for syncing up financially. They linked all their accounts, checking, credit cards, even investments, and started doing regular monthly check ins. Now they track spending, set vacation goals and stay on the same page without all the stress. And the best part, Monarch makes it feel easy, like you're both in control of your financial future together. Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code hermoney@monimalmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with code hermoney. You know what doesn't belong in your summer plans? Getting burned by your wireless bill. Whether you're planning beach days, barbecues, or that long overdue girls weekend, your phone bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's why so many smart savers are making the switch to Mint Mobile and keeping more money in their pockets each month. Mint offers premium wireless service, including unlimited talk, text and high speed data on the nation's largest 5G network. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month@mintmobile.com hermoney that's mintmobile.com hermoney upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. We are back with Jamie Feldman, writer, producer, co host of the Debt Heads podcast. First of all, great name, great name. Are you Deadheads in addition to Deadheads?
- [22:57]
Jamie Feldman
It's so funny. So the name is All. My writing partner, Rachel, she came up with it, I think. She was on vacation with her family and she called me in a panic and was like, I have it. My dad was a huge Deadhead. And so I love the Grateful Dead. I think that. I think we would call ourselves like Deadheads Light. But it really felt like the concept of a Deadhead, like, and this is like a positive way, like being immersed in the music and just sort of in a daze. We sort of felt like that could be applied to the way that we in the US are sort of in this daze of debt and money and, you know, just sort of floating along and things are happening to us and we're just like, this is just the way it is. So I guess I'm gonna go with it. So. Yes, thank you. That was, that was Rachel. But yes, it's inspired by our, both our love of the Grateful Dead and our feeling of the way things are in America.
- [23:51]
Jean Chatzky
I saw the dead once. I was about 23 years old. Maybe I saw. I went to Madison Square Garden, saw the dead. The guy that's now my business partner, he's been my friend for 40 some years.
- [24:09]
Jamie Feldman
Oh, my God.
- [24:10]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah. So it's always.
- [24:11]
Jamie Feldman
That's amazing.
- [24:12]
Jean Chatzky
Sort of fun to revisit that. Anyway, I dive into. You created this podcast to explore why we carry so much debt and to look into the systems that really keep us trapped in this cycle. Describe the problem.
- [24:29]
Jamie Feldman
Oh, God. I think we need a much longer, much longer podcast. But I always have to preface this by saying that there is personal responsibility involved with accumulating debt that is 100%. There's no question. Nobody took my hand and made me pay for something I couldn't afford. However, when you start to really unpack and lift the curtain on some of the ways in which it's extremely easy to access credit, it's extremely easy to be granted more access to credit that you didn't ask for. We live in a, in a society where that's basically born to consume, there's advertising abound. Everything is going to change your life if you just get this one new thing. We have to keep up. We have to go to the bachelorette party. We have to spend $1,000 to be part of society. We are told that these are things that we need to do in order to be part of the system. And once we start to be a part of them, we are immediately preyed upon to spend more, to buy more, to take on more. I mean, you look at a credit just for one example, like, you know, you said, I never looked at my statements. I can't even read a statement. Now. There's some study that came out that said that a credit card statement is written at like a 17th grade level, which, like, what is even 17th grade? Don't, don't fact check me on that. I know that it's a number that doesn't really exist, but it's. Once you start really thinking about all these ways in which you're encouraged to spend and it's so easy, it becomes more difficult to just put the blame on yourself.
- [26:05]
Jean Chatzky
Well, yeah, I mean, you did a TikTok and it was a pretty viral TikTok recently where you talked about a credit card company that increased your credit limit to $20,000, which clearly you couldn't afford with a 24% interest rate. So what did you learn from that and what did you do as a result?
- [26:27]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, so I didn't even know that this was possible. And I think it was funny. I was reading the comments and there were some people who were really offended by me doing this. And there were some people who said, you know, I didn't even know you could do this, but basically you opt in to get automatic credit limit increases when you sign up for your credit card. I really didn't know that I had done that. I think it's probably somewhere hidden in a very small font on my statement or the contract. And I'd experienced these increases over time. I think when I got my first Chase card, the limit was $11,000. Now it's, you know, it's up to 16. It had just got. I had got a congratulations email, which I think is so insane that you just constantly getting these emails that are like, congratulations, here's a bunch more money that you don't have. And I found out that you could call and ask the increase to be reversed. And there are a couple of things that I've tried to do over the years. You can call and try to negotiate a lower interest. I've never done that successfully, but you can. This was one time where I was like, okay, let's try it. And the woman was extremely nice about it. She reversed it right away, no questions asked. And she opted me out of getting limit increases in the future. And you had some people who said, you know, increasing your credit is a good thing because it increases your usage and that helps with your credit score. And again, it ties back to this, like, sort of puritanical idea of you need to have a good credit score or you're bad. Right, Right. I'm not buying a house right now. I'm not buying a car. I'm told, like, the most important thing is to have a good credit score. And I was never really taught why that is. I just was taught that's the way it is. And I think we interviewed this woman, Elena Batea, who worked for many years at Capital One and then left and went on and wrote a book about how predatory credit cards are. And she was tasked with giving people credit line increases and running experiments, which are legal experiments that Capital One is, like, very open and honest about running on their customers that figured out just the right amount to extend so that they'll use it without defaulting. It's so predatory in a way that I never really. Even besides the fact that I never thought about my spending, I never thought about the ways that I was, like, being set up at every turn to kind of fail at this.
- [28:42]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah, I think that that advice And I know you're not in the advice giving business, but I do think that advice to shut off those credit limit increases is particularly important when your kid gets their first credit card. Right. If you. That first credit card, oh my God, it feels like candy. And it's so tempting to just swipe and dip and tap.
- [29:06]
Jamie Feldman
So fun.
- [29:06]
Jean Chatzky
And you, yes, it's like, oh my God, look at my power. But shut it down by keeping the credit limit really, really low. Artificially low.
- [29:15]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Jean Chatzky
I'm intrigued by the way that you've paid down debt. I think you've made it really kind of fun by setting up different challenges for yourself. You set up something called the Money Saving March and no restaurants. July and cash only, November. I've done this from time to time. At one point, I spent six months not buying anything on sale because I had realized that for me a sale was like kryptonite. Right.
- [29:47]
Jamie Feldman
I love that.
- [29:47]
Jean Chatzky
I just could not resist.
- [29:50]
Jamie Feldman
Which, of course, how could you?
- [29:51]
Jean Chatzky
Right? So if I wanted it, I had to want it enough to pay full price. And I ended up actually spending a lot less money over that six month period. But tell me about these challenges.
- [30:02]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, I think it really doing these challenges and implementing these ways of trying to find creative solutions completely changed my brain chemistry. I think capitalism allows us to not be creative. Right. Like capitalism says you want to catch up with your friend. Well, here's a restaurant where you could go buy a meal, pay $20 for a cocktail. And it's so easy. Look, it's right here. You can do it. But if you're not spending that money and you're not going to restaurants, suddenly you have to use your brain a little bit and say, well, how can I catch up with this person in a way that feels good and connective without doing the thing that I've been brought up to do socially? And so it did a couple of things. First of all, it was so fun, especially the ones in the summer, because it's so much easier to be outdoors and have picnics and go to the beach and go for walks and go to the park and learn how to make a cocktail at home. I realized that, like I was going to these bars and spending $20 for one cocktail. I couldn't even like, hear my friend. And if the point is connecting now, like, we're a little, a little buzzed, like we might not even have like a meaningful conversation. And I've just spent probably 40 to $100 that I don't have on like an overpriced cocktail when I could have some boxed wine out of a plastic cup in the park, which, you know, has come a long way. I will. That's one of my other pieces of advice is boxed wine is, has come a long way since at least I was in college and sort of just building these, these what felt like even deeper connections. I think in the beginning, there was this moment that I had where I said I had plans to go to dinner and I'm gonna call her up by name because I love her and she's been such a good friend to me, my friend Chanel. I had plans to go to dinner with her the night that I had this breakdown in the park. And I was afraid to call her and say, you know, I can't do it. I was, I was like, what is she gonna say? This is embarrassing. I don't know how she's gonna react. I don't know how she's gonna respond. I mean, spoiler alert, she's my friend many years later. And she was like, yeah, sure, like, let's. I just wanna hang out with you. I'm not hanging out with you because I like you in a restaurant. I'm hanging out with you because I like you as a person. And I think that it changed me forever because not only did I start to understand, like, my role and my value in my relationships, but I actually found that, like, the people who were excited about doing these things with me and excited about finding these new ways to connect, like, those are my people. Those. That's my community. If a person is not going to do that with you, then are they really your friend? I don't know. So. And you know, all of that is to say, like, every person basically responded the same way, which is to be like, yeah, let's, let's do something else. Let's go to a movie on a Wednesday when it's $10. There are ways to, like, get around these really quite easy ways that we're given to connect when really it can be more fun and more rewarding. And especially like during these month long challenges, it was like I had to keep coming up with things because otherwise it could get boring. So it was such a thing.
- [33:09]
Jean Chatzky
Right. And you could quit after a week.
- [33:13]
Jamie Feldman
Exactly.
- [33:13]
Jean Chatzky
I know that today you're still navigating debt, but you've also said that you are happier than you've ever been. So fast forward us to where you are now.
- [33:27]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah. And I mean, I think it goes back to what happened during these challenges that I implemented in the very beginning. I think if you Ask someone, they would tell you that I'm a happy person. And they probably would have said that 10 years ago. But I was sort of putting on a show without even realizing it because I was not tackling these, these larger issues. I was not like, confronting these issues with my mental health and this, this grief that I was avoiding. I was avoiding, avoiding, avoiding. And so I was just fun. I was just fun. I was gonna come to your party and I was gonna crack jokes and I was gonna be the life of the party. And I still do that. But I know myself way more. I have much more meaningful relationships with my family and my friends. I'm much more honest. I'm not trying to be happy all the time, which, like, is an impossibility. And I'm feeling my feelings and working through them as opposed to making them a problem for future me. And while there is pain involved with that, and it's not always easy, ultimately I am actually happier because I'm actually feeling. I think you can think that you're happy and you can think that you're content, but if you're not doing any real feeling, that's not real. It's not like a real sense of joy. And I feel like I have that now way more than I ever have. Even though I probably have more instances of like, emotional sadness and pain, like, the reward is much greater. Now.
- [35:07]
Jean Chatzky
Once again, I know that you are not in the advice giving business, but for people who are listening and who hear themselves in your story, and I suspect there are many, what one piece of advice do you want to give them?
- [35:22]
Jamie Feldman
Just to trust that the people who love you are going to be there for you. Use them as a resource. Lean on them. You don't have to figure this stuff out alone. In fact, you can't. And you're not alone. There are more of us struggling with money than there aren't. And once we start talking about that in a real way, we can sort of start to imagine what a different world might look like. And listen to Deadheads. That's my other piece of advice.
- [35:55]
Jean Chatzky
Well, I was going to say that. Seriously, for anybody who is struggling with this at all, you can't find a better podcast than Jamie's. It's called Deadheads. Please tune in. Please subscribe. Jamie, thank you so much for being here with us today and thanks for sharing.
- [36:12]
Jamie Feldman
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great.
- [36:14]
Jean Chatzky
Thanks. If you love today's episode, please, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. And if you're ready to keep the Money conversation going, HerMoney has three amazing programs designed to help you feel more confident and in control of your money. There's Finance Fix. It's our four week coaching program that helps you rethink your spending, find hidden savings and and make smarter choices for the future. Our pre Retirement program runs for six weeks and walks you through building a retirement strategy that's personalized for your next chapter. Finally, there's Investing Fix, our investing club for women. It meets every other week on Zoom. It is a supportive space to learn, ask questions, grow your investing confidence and build your portfolio. And your first month is absolutely free. These programs are truly helping level the playing field for women financially. I'd love for you to join us. Her Money is produced by Hayley Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.