← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
EP 496: The Psychology of Money and the Art of Spending, with Morgan Housel
00:33:38
What’s the secret to spending money in a way that actually makes you happier?
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- [00:00]
A
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B
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A
Hey everyone, thanks so much for joining us today on her money. I'm Jean Chatky. So there is one book that comes up again and again and again in our private Facebook group when our community at hermoney asks for recommendations about what to read to learn more about their finances. That book is always the Psychology of Money by best selling author and venture capitalist Morgan Housel. And the Psychology of Money is interesting. It is a book full of stories. It's a book full of lessons that somehow manage to really teach you about not just managing your money but about your personal relationship with money. Morgan describes the psychology of money as being focused on how we grow wealth and he is back with a new book called the Art of Spending Money. It's focused, as he puts it, on how we use money. And I'm so excited for this conversation because I know that all of you who are listening are going to get a ton from it. We're going to take a very, very quick break. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. My producer Hayley actually gave Mint Mobile a try this fall and she was surprised by how easy it was. She said the coverage was great, the speed held up, and she loved not getting any surprise fees. So if you've been thinking about trimming your budget or ditching your overpriced provider, Mint might be the easiest switch you never knew you needed. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch@mintmobile.com hermoney that's mintmobile.com hermoney upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35gb on the unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. You know what's scarier than a burnt apple crisp? The fact that the average adult unknowingly consumes over 150,000 plastic particles a year, mostly from cookware. I wish I was kidding, but I am not. This fall I've been baking a lot. It's apple season after all, and my caraway set hasn't left my stovetop. And it's beautiful, non toxic and honestly has saved me from more than a few hosting fails. Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It can save you up to $190 versus buying the items individually. Plus if you visit carawayhome.community you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusively for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com hermoney or use code hermoney at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern we are back with Morgan Housel the new book is called the Art of Spending Money. Morgan, it's a pleasure to have you here. Welcome to the show.
- [05:31]
B
Thanks so much for having me, Jean. This is an honor to be here.
- [05:34]
A
Before we get into the new book, Morgan, you've had a huge amount of success with the last one, the Psychology of money. It sold 8 million copies and it is still going strong. It makes the case that growing money is a science. But in the new one, you make the case that spending money is an art. Why the distinction?
- [05:57]
B
Well, Jean, I think the biggest distinction is you know what works for me Financially, how I should save, how I should vest, how I should spend my money, might not work for you and vice versa. And that we are all different. We have different backgrounds, different family situations, different social aspirations, like no two people are alike. That's not a bold statement, but it is a problem in finance because so much of how we are taught, particularly at the academic level or from financial advisors, very often done in a very well meaning way, but is done with the idea that there is a right way to manage, save and invest your money and that you just need to find the right formula and the formula that is right for me is right for you, and that's how it should work. So similar to how we might be talking about nutrition or something like that. And I just think there's so much evidence that that's not the case, that money is a very social endeavor, it's a very individualistic endeavor. And so I called this book the Art of Spending Money. I did not call it the science of spending money because I don't think that exists. I don't think there is any science of spending money. This is an art. Art means that it is often contradictory. It is different from person to person. It is a soft, mushy topic. I don't really give you any formulas in this book and I don't tell you how to spend your money in this book because I don't know you. I barely know myself well enough to try to figure out exactly what's going to work for me, let alone give broad advice for hopefully millions of people. And so this is a book that looks at the psychology of envy, of greed, of jealousy, of contentment, of happiness. And then you can hopefully use those lessons, that broad understanding of what's happening inside your head, to put it into context within your own life.
- [07:32]
A
It's interesting to hear you put it that way because I actually, after reading it, felt like it was more concrete. Right. I felt like I actually took some very practical, tangible lessons that I could apply in my own life. But you're right, you frame them in such a way that I think people could take what they want to from them and what is most meaningful to them. One of the, one of the lines that I pulled was that you say happiness is essentially the gap between our expectations and our reality, our actual circumstances. I like this. It reframes how we think about what's enough. Can you unpack that a little bit?
- [08:25]
B
Yeah. I think you could use that same equation for wealth. That wealth is what you have minus what you want. Very simple and of course that's the case because there are people with very modest incomes, very modest wealth who are really happy and content and live a great life and sleep eight hours a night and wake up, you know, happy. And there's also people who are billionaires who wake up every morning yearning for more feeling this is not nearly enough. I haven't accomplished the vast majority of what I like to. Those people exist too. And so that's always what it is. It's a gap between what you have and what you want. I wrote about this earlier in my career where many years ago I read this interview with Stephen Hawking, the late great scientist. And of course he has a motor neuron disease. He's, he has no control over his body, paralyzed head to toe. And he was talking about how happy he was, how amazing his life was. And like, interesting for a guy in that situation. If anybody has a right to complain about life, it is somebody like him. And it was the opposite. In this interview, he's talking about how amazing life was. And so the New York Times was doing the interview, they asked him, they said, what is your secret here? What is your secret to happiness? And he basically said, look, his expectations were reduced to zero when he was 21 years old when he was diagnosed with this, this illness that he had. And he said everything else since then has been a bonus. It's this very unique situation. Obviously I hope that myself and you and everyone else do not end up in that situation. But it had such an impact on his expectations that he ended up super happy. And you see the opposite of this. Another very extreme example among lottery winners. Very well documented cases all over the place, you know, five, 10 years after they win the lottery, they're not happy. By and large, that is the case. I'm sure you can find some standouts. But winning the lottery in a very counterintuitive way is not good for your mental health. I think at least one of the reasons is it explodes your expectations. If you go from a modest middle income worker and then win $20 million overnight, your expectations are probably such that you are going to expect that the money's going to make you so much happier, it's going to make your life so much better, you're going to wake up smiling ear to ear for the rest of your life and then you realize it doesn't. You realize that's not the case and then you are shattered. It's the gap between your expectations and your circumstances. And look, I want more money, I want more wealth. Everybody does. It's just a recognition that if you don't put as much emphasis into managing the expectation side of your relationship with money, you're never going to be satisfied. If your expectations grow faster than your income, you will never be satisfied with your money. I think that's true whether you make $10,000 a year or $10,000,000 per year.
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A
How do you suggest keeping that in check? Right. I mean, if we have the kind of careers that many of us are hoping to have, we earn more as life goes on, we adjust to those levels of income, those levels of assets, it can play with your head a little bit.
- [11:14]
B
Yeah. I think the answer that I'm going to give you is at one hand very simple and on the other hand very complicated to put into practice in real life. So here's my answer to that question. So much of modern spending past a basic level of really essential needs is an exercise in signaling, in signaling to other people of what you've accomplished. A lot of times, the house you live in, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the jewelry you have is an exercise in signaling to show other people the kind of accomplishments that you've had and whatnot. The key for me for getting over this to some extent, I would say, is acknowledging and realizing that most people are not paying that much attention to you to begin with. I heard this great quote very recently from Jimmy Carr, the great comic. He said, in your 20s, most people worry about what other people think of them. In your 30s, you say, I don't care what anybody thinks of me. And in your 40s, you finally realize the truth, which was nobody was thinking about you to begin with. And I think like, like a lot of comedy, it's funny because there's a lot of truth to that. And so, like, how much of modern spending is trying to essentially show off for strangers who are not even paying attention, they're busy worrying about themselves. And so for me, the acknowledgement that nobody was thinking about me as much as I was, and I think that's true for virtually everybody, pushed me in a very healthy way towards then using money for what actually makes me happy. And I think this is true for vast majority of people, which was independence. I just wanted to use money and savings and wealth to be independent, just wake up every day and say, I can do whatever I want today with whomever I want for as long as I want. And it's important to point out that independence exists on a spectrum. This is not financially independent. Like, you get to just completely quit your job and go do whatever you want. Independence is on a spectrum. And every dollar that you save is a little piece of your future that you control that somebody else does not. And so saving, saving $100, $1,000 is more independent than you were the day before. And so once I. To answer your question, once I started getting over the fact that people were not paying attention to me as much as I thought, as much as maybe I'd hoped for, then I could kind of turn my goals inward in a very healthy, humble way and say, I just want to use money to help my wife and my kids and my family, like, within the confines of this roof, to be independent. That was what it was for me. But I said earlier that it is easier said than done because even as someone who has studied and written about this stuff for 20 years, I think on a literal, daily basis, I need to remind myself of that and catch myself in a moment of daydreaming, of saying, if I had that house, if I had that car, wouldn't that be. Wouldn't that be amazing? I think we are very naturally wired to signal. Signaling is not necessarily a bad thing. It's essential in society when you are working with other people to send the right signals to get their attention and the respect and their admiration. But we overestimate how much we're going to get from material possessions. And once you realize that, it pushes you towards using what I think is money's highest purpose, which is independence.
- [14:11]
A
You know, it's interesting. I don't think I got to that level that he talked about in your 30s until I was in my 50s. Quite honestly, I think. I think I woke up at 50 and I was like, I do not care what other people think. I'm going to say and do what I want to do. But it did take me a while to get there. And I like the idea that this process of acknowledging and accumulating more independence is a continuum. In the book, you have 15 levels of financial dependence and independence, which is just to say that you shouldn't expect yourself to get it absolutely perfect overnight. Right. That's just not happening.
- [14:57]
B
Yeah. A lot of people, when you say the word financial independence, they think that means getting to a point where they don't have to work anymore. And for the vast majority of people, that is so completely out of expectations, out of. Out of their grasp. They say, why are we even talking about this? And so if you define independence as I don't need to work ever again, that goal might be there for some people, particularly in retirement, but that's that that's not the goal of independence. If you were to be laid off from your job or divorced or major medical illness or have wayward children, whatever it might be, you will realize in that moment that every dollar that you saved is a little independence token relative to just being completely at the mercy of whatever ill was chasing you at that moment. Everything. Like, it's the oxygen of independence. Cash is the oxygen of independence. And you realize that maybe not all the time, but maybe twice a decade in your personal life or in the broader economy, whether it's the 2008 financial crisis or COVID lockdowns, something will happen where you realize that being at the mercy of the vicissitudes of life and natural volatility in the economy can be brutal if you don't have some level of independence to counter it.
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A
I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Clements lately. Jonathan Clements, the amazing personal finance writer. He lived a few blocks from me here in Philadelphia and just died at a ridiculously young age. Our friend Michelle Singletary wrote a column about him in the Washington Post talking about how he was still a saver in the last year of his life because he felt like, why would I be spending my kids money? Why would I be spending my wife's money? And told a story about how he could bring himself to spend $1,000 to upgrade his fare from the US to Europe to a lie flat seat. But $3,000, he was absolutely not gonna. Not gonna have that. And I just, I think that it's all wrapped up in mortality. It's all wrapped up in this idea that we only have so much time to do these things in life. And that's a big factor in how much happiness and, and independence it. It brings us.
- [17:16]
B
Yeah. And Jonathan was a absolutely wonderful human being. And this is slightly off topic, but he was diagnosed with his brain cancer, I want to say, 18 months ago. If I'm getting that a little bit wrong, it was roughly that, that time distance. And publicly, he was very open about it online. And I've never seen someone handle it with such grace.
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A
No.
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B
And that's of course, not to discount what he and his family went through. But he was just an incredible person right to the end. So he's. He will be very much missed in this. One thing that comes to mind when you said that when I was a teenager, when my first jobs was working at a ski resort in Lake Tahoe and I had a coworker who was a little bit older than me, Maybe he was mid-20s. And at the time he had $25,000 in credit card debt from ski trips that he had taken all over the world. And I remember I was raised by parents who are very, they're big savers and anti debt and that. So when I was, you know, 18 or 19, that was, that was my philosophy too. And I gave him so much grief like, you idiot, I can't believe on credit cards, I can't almost daily. I just couldn't fathom that, that mindset that he was doing to take these ski trips all over the world on his credit cards. And the very tragic punchline here is when he was about 30, he died in a ski accident. And I remember at that moment very quickly saying to myself, I'm so glad you took those trips. I am so, so glad you took those trips and got to live in your very brief period here. And I don't know what the takeaway from that is because I don't think people should live day to day thinking they're going to die at age 29. That's, it's usually not a very good ment. But it is. I think the only way to really think about financial risk is the framework of what are you going to regret at some very later period in your life. And the truth is, of course, we don't know when that later period is going to be.
- [18:55]
A
Right?
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B
We have, nobody has any idea. But that's the way to think about risk. It is not so simple as to say live for today or save for tomorrow that you like. That's not bad advice. But everyone is going to have a different level of that. And I've thought about this for myself also a very morbid way of. I've been a big saver for my entire life. And if I, very similar to Jonathan recently, were facing the end of my life tomorrow, I would not have any regret whatsoever about being a saver because like Jonathan, I would take so much pleasure knowing that my wife and kids are going to be okay because I saved that money. And I would have so much guilt if I had just blown it all on a bunch of fancy stuff for myself and left them with nothing. So it's different for everybody. There is no formula on how to do this, but the broad idea of having a good sense of what you're going to regret at some point in the future. Jerry Seinfeld said, you know, long term thinking is empathy with your future self. And I think that's a good way to frame it. You want to have empathy with you in the future and understand what you're going to look back on and say, I wish I did that differently.
- [19:55]
A
It's a very difficult thing to do to even envision who that person is going to be. They're such a stranger. But if you can put yourself in that headspace, it's incredibly valuable. You frame it another way in the book, though, too, you make this point, and there's a lot of research on money and happiness and what actually works and what actually doesn't. Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize for his work where he basically said, okay, $75,000 is enough to make you happy. It was a while ago. It's not as much money as it once was. More recently, Matthew Killingsworth at Penn and has done some updated work on money and happiness. And you make the point that when we spend money in ways that does manage to make us happy, it usually happens in indirect ways. Can you talk about what that means?
- [20:52]
B
Yeah. Just to give one broad example of this, to make the point, if you ask the question, will buying a big fancy house make me happier? The answer might be yes. But I think the reason the answer is probably going to be yes is if it makes it easier to have your friends and family over for dinners and barbecues and whatnot. So that might make you happy, but the acknowledgement there is that the friends and the family are what are making you happy, not necessarily the house. So to take a very extreme example of this, if you had the big fancy mansion, but your kids despised you, you're in poor health, your community hates you, you have a rotten conscience, you don't sleep very well at night, is that person happy? Of course not. Like, absolutely not. But if you are someone who lives in a decidedly middle class house and you are married to your soulmate, your kids adore you, your community adores you, you are in great health, you sleep eight hours, and that person is obviously going to have a pretty great life, a wonderful life even. And so it's not to say that material things cannot make you happier, they absolutely can. But it's usually because it's a conduit into giving you something that is much more meaningful in your life. And so I think a lot of people, the reason that travel can make you happier and give you a better life is oftentimes you need to get up and go somewhere else in order to detach from the grind, the rigmarole, the monotony of your normal everyday life. It's not necessarily that going to Hawaii makes you happy, even though it's a beautiful place, but oftentimes at least this is true for me. I feel like I need to do something like that in order to detach from work and my social responsibilities around here. Like, you have to go somewhere else to get that. And then once you do that, you can spend uninterrupted quality time with your friends, your family, whoever it might be. And that's at least part of the reason that travel can be so great. And I had this realization a couple of years ago. I went, I went, went to Hawaii with my family and I was building a sand castle with my two young kids on the beach. And I remember thinking, this is a 10 out of 10. This is peak life right here. I'm building a sandcastle with my two young kids on the beach in Maui. Unbelievable. But then it hit me that like, if we had stayed home and I was building Legos on the living room floor with them, that's like a nine out of ten. That's like, that's almost, that's nearly as good. What was making me happy was the uninterrupted time with my kids. Not the sunshine, not the beach, even though those are lovely. It was the quality time. So like, spending money is often just, it's just a door that can open up to lead you to something that's going to bring you truly quality happiness in life.
- [23:14]
A
I think that's where some people get confused with the research that says experiences are, you should spend your money on experiences because they're so much better than things, but it, it depend on how you experience things, right? So I'm like a, I'm a throw pillow person. I like to stay home, I like to cook dinner. I'd prefer to eat home rather than go to a restaurant. But I want to do it with people, right? I want people around. And to me, that's as much of an experience as going to the latest trendy restaurant. It, it's just perspective.
- [23:50]
B
Totally. We had this experience, this is the last week. And we had an evening at home, just made dinner at home. And their kids are young, they're six and nine. And they were just in such a good mood that night and they were playing well with each other and everything was great. And we had a good dinner and we had, we laughed and whatnot. And at the end of the night, my wife and I were like, that was a perfect evening. You could not have gotten a better evening like that. And it cost us nothing. We didn't go anywhere. It was just, everyone was in a good mood, everybody was happy. And so sometimes I think everyone has those experiences where a lot of times the best day that you have doesn't really cost anything. I think it's true for a lot of people that if they're looking back at their life and you asked when were you the happiest? When do you have the best memories, the best experiences? Not everybody, but a lot of people will tell you high school and college and when you know. Of course that's not true for everybody, but a lot of people will say that. And a common denominator of those years is by and large, you have no money, you have not donated, you're not buying anything, you're completely broke, but you're spending every evening with your friends and you're laughing and having a good time and whatnot. And that if you look back, that might be some of your richest days that you can imagine.
- [24:52]
A
I had some of my college friends at the beach this summer for a weekend. My housemates from senior year and oh my God, I have not laughed like that since senior year of college. It was amazing. We're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about people in retirement and how spending differs there. So you all know I don't rave about things unless I really mean it. And I have to say I finally tried the Fits Everyone collection from Skims. My daughter has been telling me about it for such a long time, but now I totally get the hype. I've always had issues with underwear. It's too tight, it's too bulky, it leaves lines under everything. I can't stand the lines. This is a game changer. The fabric is soft. I can't believe how comfortable it is. This is the kind of feel good upgrade that is small but seriously meaningful. We all deserve a few small upgrades in our lives. So if you haven't tried Skims yet, take this as your sign. The Fits Everybody collection lives up to the name. It really does fit and flatter everybody. Shop Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com and after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.
- [26:16]
C
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- [26:46]
A
We are back with Morgan Housel. The new book is called the Art of Spending Money. Let's talk about people who are in retirement or heading toward retirement. They've saved well. They've done the hard part. They have trouble according to some recent research, spending. There's a fear of running out of money. There's a fear of living too long. There's also this weird flipping of the switch that's difficult that after you have been told to just shove money in your 401k for four decades, spending money turns out to be really hard. What do you find out about this?
- [27:29]
B
It's if you talk to a lot of financial advisors and you ask them what is the biggest like psychological trap that your clients get into, a lot of them will tell you exactly what you just said. You take a client who has diligently saved in their 401k and their IRA for four decades and let's say they're 65 years old and they saved a million dollars for retirement. Congratulations, you won, you won the race. You did everything right. Now you can go have a wonderful retirement. And for a lot of those people, they can't do it. They cannot bring themselves to spending even a very reasonable amount of money. And I think a lot of the reason is because as you just hinted at, the idea of I am a saver becomes integral to their identity. It becomes who they are. And they cannot flip a switch and start saying I'm going to start spending this in a reasonable rational way. They can't do it. I would say part of this might be actually fairly reasonable because we are lucky enough to now live in a world where I think the statistic is if you take a 60 year old couple, a 60 year old husband and wife, the odds that at least one of you will live into your 90s are better than average. And it's possible that both of you will live into your 90s. So it was not that long ago my grandparents generation that if a couple retired at age 60, the odds were that neither of you would be around in 10 years. That was, that was by and large the case.
- [28:45]
A
Yeah.
- [28:46]
B
And retirement was a safety net for the retirement that you might have for a couple of years. And now we're talking a couple of decades like good problem to have. I'm grateful that we live in that world. But it is true that a lot of people, if they retire at 65, they might say I need this money to last me for 25 or 30 years or maybe even more. And so it is an issue there. But I think the idea that when you cannot spend even a very reasonable amount of money, because a good financial advisor can look at that and say, spending this amount will make your money last in perpetuity, there are reasonably safe ways to do that, the formulas to do that. But if you're unable to do that, then the money isn't in control of your personality. It's telling you how to live. And at the highest level, I want to use money as a tool to live a better life. I want to use money as a tool in my toolkit to, to give myself a better life, of course. But so oftentimes it's not. It's like the puppet master controlling your whole personality, telling you how to live, where to live, what to spend your money on, where you can travel. And at that point, like I, you, you always have to be careful with that identity. And a lot of identities that people have seem very innocent or, or even positive. I am a saver, I am a, I am an index fund investor, whatever it might be. But anytime in life where you say I am a blank, it doesn't matter what it is, you've attached yourself to an identity and it is very difficult to detach yourself from that identity somewhere down the road. And I think what's true for a lot of people too, in retirement, slightly different topic, but a lot of people will realize they will, they will chase retirement for decades. That's their goal. Then they daydream about what that'll be like, and then they retire and maybe it feels great for a week or two and they wake up two weeks later and they. The feeling that they have is some version of boredom and they don't really know what to do with themselves. My dad did this. My dad was a doctor for 30 years and then he retired and he was so eager and grateful to retire. And six months later he'd look in the mirror and say, what now? What in the world am I doing now? And he went back to work. And so far, I think a lot of people, the truth is, what they want to do in life is even if you are financially independent and you wake up every morning and you say, I can do whatever I want, the truth is, what you want to do is be useful and productive and add some value into the world, that's your identity. And completely detaching from work. Some people do it with a lot of grace and handle it no problem. And they backfill their lives with activities and social engagements. And it's no problem. A lot of people really struggle with it. And so I, you know this, that there's no formula on how to deal with that because everyone's different. And for some people, if you're doing like a manual labor job or whatever, it might be like, getting out is really essential. But a lot of people realize that one of the most important parts of retirement is A, making sure that your money doesn't control your identity, and B, backfilling your life with something else that's going to replace the purpose in your life that worked was for probably the.
- [31:34]
A
Previous 50 years, that that's the formula that you lay out in the book, that the simplest formula for a nice life is independence plus purpose. And I think it's true at all stages. As we wrap up this conversation, I could not ignore the chapter on how to be miserable spending money, which kind of pulls. I thought it pulled kind of all the lessons together. But if you had to sort of top three it, and you wanted to prevent people from being miserable spending their money, what would you say?
- [32:06]
B
I would say, number one, attach your expectations to the rest of society. So wake up every morning and open up Instagram and scroll through it and say, if I am not as seemingly pretty and happy and rich and successful as everybody in this feed, I'm a failure. And of course, that's giving you the worst advice possible. Of course, sometimes, yes, sometimes that's what drives a home for. And I think the irony is a lot of people do that. A lot of people literally do just that. Number two would be assume that money will solve all of your problems. If you wake up in the morning and you feel kind of empty, you feel anxious, you have problems in your life, assume that if only you had more money, those problems would go away. It's a very dangerous assumption to make. And it's not to say that money cannot give you a better life. Of course it can. But it is too easy to assume that is the solution to all of our problems. It's too easy to think that it's a magic pill, a silver bullet that's going to solve anything. And a lot of people will chase money assuming it will solve problems that it will have no impact on when they should have been working on something much differently in their life. That's the second. The third, I would say, is form your goals and your expectations outside of the roof of your own house. As in trying to say, who can I impress? Whose attention can I guess, can I get the attentions of strangers versus saying how can I use a money as a tool to live a better life within the confines of my own roof? And I think you have to be humble to almost the point of selfish. I would say, even if that's probably the wrong word when you're forming your goals. I want to use money to give me a better life for myself and my wife and my two kids and my parents and maybe three of my friends. And that's pretty much it, because those are the people whose attention I care about. There's a great Warren Buffett quote where he says success in life is when the people who you want to love you do love you, when the people who you want to love you do love you. And that excludes 99.999% of other people who are not paying attention to you to begin with.
- [33:54]
A
Morgan Hounsel the book is the Art of Spending Money. It's fantastic. I was lucky enough to be able to get an early read through, so thank you so much for that and thank you for being here. Thank you, Jean if you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. And if you're ready to keep the Money conversation going, HerMoney has three amazing programs designed to help you feel more confident and in control of your money. There's Finance Fitness. It's our four week coaching program that helps you rethink your spending, find hidden savings, and make smarter choices for the future. Our Pre Retirement program runs for six weeks and walks you through building a retirement strategy that's personalized for your next chapter. Finally, there's Investing Fix, our investing club for Women. It meets every other week on Zoom. It is a supportive space to learn, ask questions, grow your investing confidence and build your portfolio. And your first month is absolutely free. These programs are truly helping level the playing field for women financially. I'd love for you to join us. Her Money is produced by Haley Pascalides and Army Music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.