← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 502: Financial Caregiving 101: What You Need To Know Before You or Your Parent Gets Sick
00:33:20
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- [00:01]
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- [02:03]
Beth Pinsker
There'S one email that would save you from a year in court and $18,000 to file conservatorship over your parent who has dementia. If you are that daughter we were talking about the person who's everybody else's person. Make a family map is what I call it. But not all the lines are blood connected. Lines like I have a lot of single women friends who who I'm their their person.
- [02:29]
Jean Chatzky
Hey everyone. Welcome to Her Money. I'm Jean Chatzky. Today we are diving into a topic that so many of us are navigating right now. Caring for our older parents, aging parents, financially, emotionally, legally and often without a roadmap. If you have ever gotten that call, the one that suddenly makes you the person in charge as I have, you know exactly how disorienting it can be. And if you haven't gotten that call yet. Well, it will come. Consider this ample warning. And let's be frank, even if your life situation is such that you will never get that call, then I think you should continue to listen to this episode anyway. Because even if you won't be managing somebody else's finances, someone will eventually need to step in and manage your finances. And today's conversation is also about making their job a little easier down the line. Let's take a quick break. Back in a sec. Pop quiz. Can you name all your financial accounts right now? 401k savings, credit card, mortgage, investments? My producer Hayley thought she could until she started using Monarch and discovered a crypto account that she hadn't touched in years. With a couple hundred dollars just sitting there, that one surprise made her realize how easy it is to lose track of your money. Feel organized and confident in your finances with Monarch, an all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone. And right now, just for our listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year with code hermoney@monarch.com Now Hailey uses Monarch to keep everything in one place, spending savings, investments and even shared budgets. And no more spreadsheets. No more surprises. Don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks. Use code hermoneyonarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code hermoney. You've heard this story before. When I first moved to New York after college, I was so deep in credit card debt just trying to stay afloat. Every overdraft fee, every late payment, it all made getting ahead feel so out of reach. My younger self would have seriously benefited from Chime. That's because with Chime, when you set up direct deposit, you can get paid two days early. You can access fee free, overdraft up to $200 and skip the monthly maintenance fees altogether. Chime also gives you access to over 47,000 fee fee free ATMs. That's more than the top three national banks combined. And you get real time alerts that help you stay on top of your balance and your spending. Work on your financial goals through Chime today. Open an account in 2 minutes@chime.com hermoney that's chime.com hermoney Chime feels like progress. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members, FDIC spot me Eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file fees apply at out of network ATMs. Bank ranking and number of ATMs according to US News and World Report. 2023 Chime checking account required. I am joined today by Beth Pinsker. She is a certified financial planner. She's a columnist. You may know her from Market Watch. And she is out with a brand new book called My Mother's Money A Guide to Financial Caregiving. It is part memoir, part field guide, part toolkit. It's already being called a must read for anyone and everyone navigating end of life financial planning. Beth, where were you two years ago?
- [06:49]
Beth Pinsker
I was caring for my mom. That's what I was doing. I was still deep in the throes of it two years ago. And it takes a while to come out of it and be able to help other people on the other side of it.
- [07:03]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah, no, I, I was in the throes of it myself. And I want to say thank you for writing this because it is, it's so hard dealing with somebody else's finances when you're dealing with the fact that the person that you love maybe most on the planet is not. Well, right there. There are so many emotions tied up in that and we, we all need some sort of a roadmap. You start the book by saying that even though you do this professionally, you stumbled at every turn as your mom's financial caregiver. I felt exactly the same way. Talk about that.
- [07:50]
Beth Pinsker
None of this stuff is in books. Nobody tells you how to functionally use any of this stuff. You hear about 401k plans and how much your savings ratio should be. And that has nothing to do with your trip to the bank with your mom or trying to move her account into your bank after she's gone. None of the practical functionalities of financial life are ever talked about. And how hard it is for people, regular people, to sort of bang their head against the no's that you get. And there are a lot of hard nos. And I think that people don't realize that when, you know, when you want to go and do something financially for your parent and you don't have the proper authorization, the answer is literally no. And if you want to change that answer, you have to go to court. And, you know, not enough people are aware of that and they get stuck.
- [08:47]
Jean Chatzky
You came at this with a lot of knowledge, right? I mean, you've been writing about personal finance for. I think I'm a little Older than you. But I think we've been doing this about the same amount of time. We've been running in these same circles. And so we know a lot of things. So it's striking that even people like us who know a lot of things can get sideswiped by all of those nos. What were the things that really threw you off?
- [09:17]
Beth Pinsker
Not knowing things threw me off. Not knowing my mother's personal details of things. The thing that completely derailed me. And I talk about this, you know, everybody. I talked to, like, a hundred people for this book. And everybody had a breaking point over something. Just that throw down everything on the couch and have a good cry kind of breakdown, because you just can't do it. And mine came after my mom had died. We were trying to sell her apartment. She had a condo in Florida. And we had a very, very tight window and circumstances because Florida's kind of nuts in the real estate market. We just had to sell it right then. And we had a cash buyer. And it was all going very fast because it had to. And then I get a call from the title attorney who says, there is a home equity line of credit on the apartment, and you can't close the sale until you clear that up. And I'm like, what home equity line of credit? And they're like, we don't know either. You have to figure it out. And my mom's gone. All of her paperwork is in boxes. I don't know what they're talking about. So I literally had to stop my life for two full days while I unraveled this mystery that I found, like, deep in my mom's AOL inbox. Cause, of course, she had aol, some side mention of a home equity line of credit that she had taken out when my father had gotten sick in 2014 because she was afraid that she wasn't going to have access to money if he wasn't able to sign paperwork. And she panicked, and she took out a home equity line of credit, and she never took money out of it. So it was a zero balance that was going, like, nothing. Like paperwork was going to derail this entire sale. And I, like, lost it. I tore apart every box. I did everything I could. The bank where she had taken out the home equity line of credit had been sold. So the account. I had located an account number, but it wasn't good anymore because the account had gone to a new bank and had a new account number. And you can't even get information from anybody on the phone unless you file paperwork. So I Had to file the death certificate and the trust certificate and, and the letters of administration from the probate court, like whatever I could throw at them to even get them to get on the phone with me to tell me the account number and what the balance was. And it just totally stopped my life for two whole days. And like, that's not in books anywhere. Nobody tells you that's going to happen. But the thing is, if my mother had had a proper paper trail and had told me about it, I would have been prepared and would have known that you have to close a home equity line of credit before you can sell a property. But she had forgotten all about. Didn't come up.
- [12:12]
Jean Chatzky
What's interesting to me, and I'm sitting here at my desk where I still have my mother's. This is my mother's paper trail. This is all the little tabs, all the little tabs. I mean, I have boxes and boxes, but this was the gold mine. This was the roadmap. This is all the little tabs say things like financial and medical and miscellaneous and. God, I can't even read this one anymore. Computer. I mean, and, and it's all of it. It's all the passwords. And my mother was a second grade teacher, so. So she had amazing penmanship.
- [12:46]
Beth Pinsker
Lucky.
- [12:47]
Jean Chatzky
But yeah. So, like I can actually read this stuff. Even when she left me as many things in as good shape as she did did, there were still hurdles. And I think the goal that you had when you set out to write this book was to make it easier for the people who come after you and after me. So let's back it up and let's, let's talk about the things that you had to do, what your timeline looked like, and then sort of step it by, step it for people so that maybe it'll be easier for them. What was your sort of process from the time you took over through the settling of her estate?
- [13:31]
Beth Pinsker
The first thing I had to do was get a handle of her ins and outs, how much money she had coming into the household, which I had no idea. I mean, who knows Those sorts of things. Like, I didn't know how much she got in Social Security, I didn't know what her pension was. I had no idea she was handling her own stuff. So I needed to know how much money was coming in per month and how much was going out, how much did the caregivers cost, what was her electric bill, how did she pay it? And at the particular moment I had to take all of those things on. She wasn't in any place to talk to me about it. She was recovering from surgery, and it was going worse than we expected. And she just. She could have helped me, but she just wasn't in a place where she wanted to. Just wasn't what she was focused on. And so I had to, like, reverse engineer a budget and make sure that everything that needed to be paid got paid because she had premiums for insurance policies and household bills and things like that. And somebody's got to keep the trains running. Like, if I got sick, I'm very careful to make sure that everything I do is automated. And as long as money keeps coming in, as long as, like, my paycheck keeps landing, my bills go out. And so if something happened to me, things could function for some amount of time on. On their own, on autopilot. But for my mom, you know, she was an older lady, it wasn't on autopilot. She, like, purposefully paid her bills every month, and somebody had to keep doing that for her. And I've seen this happen in other families, too. And especially, like, my mom took care of things on her own. She was. You know, my dad had already passed. He wasn't much good at any of that anyway. But there are lots of couples out there these days where one takes care of those things and the other one doesn't know anything about it. I'm helping a family through this now, and it's all in the dad's head when things get paid and how much money they have and how he moves things around from account to account to cover, you know, for things. And nobody else knows how he does things. And he got sick and he was out of commission for, like, three weeks and stuff, didn't get paid. And so you have to think about that, like, if something happened to this person, how would things keep going? How would we keep the lights on? How do we keep the mortgage paid?
- [15:53]
Jean Chatzky
Right? And for everybody listening, we're going to take a step back and we're going to tell you how to avoid this situation. But if you find yourself in it without the proper preparation, as you did, Beth, how did you develop that budget? How did you schedule the bills? How did you deal with moving money around when money needed to be moved around?
- [16:25]
Beth Pinsker
So the first thing I did, and this is in my book, I have my mom's budget and how I put it together. And it was on the notes app on my phone. I went to her desk, and she had her bank account statements on her desk and her credit card bill from, like, the last two, three Months. And I just went through line by line. Okay, here's a credit coming into the bank. You know, it's marked ssa. That's her Social Security. Here's another line I see that's a credit in the bank statement. That's her pension. She was a teacher, and she still got a very, very tiny pension. And then I went to the bills, and I say, okay, I see that she has a direct debit coming out for her electric bill, but her health care premium is on her credit card. The credit card due date says here, whatever date. I think it was December when I was doing this. So, like, the date the credit card was due, and then I'm like, okay, how does she usually pay this credit card? Is it a direct. Does she write a check? Like, you can see all these things if you start to look at the statements. And I literally just had to sit there at her desk and piece it together. Sometimes people have this on their phones. Sometimes they have it on a spreadsheet, and sometimes they're just a disaster at it, and they haven't had any system at all. You don't know going into it. And the thing you want to know ahead of time is how they're doing these things. So if you can get a jump on it, you can sit down with that person in a good month when nothing bad has happened and say, you know, like, mom, can you walk me through how you do your bills every month so that if I have to ever do this for you, I know how you do things. You know, sometimes I drag my kids into that and say, you know, like, here's the credit card I use. I only use one credit card to make everything simple. And they're on my credit cards as authorized users. So, like, I've taught them things as we go along. I'm like, this is how I do.
- [18:13]
Jean Chatzky
Things in case they need to step in and take over for you. You. You were not in this alone. Did that make life easier or harder?
- [18:22]
Beth Pinsker
I have one older brother, and he absolutely made things easier. He's very private and doesn't like to be spoken about. So I kept him out of the story in the book as much as possible. But the truth is, is that we leapfrogged each other and we divided and conquered. And so the things that I took care of and the times that I was in Florida visiting my mom were me. You know, I would go a week, and then he would go a week. And it didn't make any sense for us to be there at the same time, because that was redundancy. So he was very much better at the doctors than I was. And he took care of, like, the medical stuff more than me. And I took care of the money. It's not his thing. He didn't have any interest in it. And this is what I do for a living. Every family needs like a doctor and a lawyer and somebody who's good at getting stuff done. And I am the person who's good at getting stuff done, as I don't like to do gender role kind of situations, but, you know, daughters get stuff done in American families and it's just kind of the way things happen. No matter how many times you try to talk in modern lingo and change things, if you're a daughter, you have the phone calls, you get stuff done, all the practical stuff ends up in your lap and you're the one juggling everybody else's needs.
- [19:46]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah. And what I think is so interesting is that my daughter and her friends have come to realize that. She told me she has nine best friends from camp and she told me they have had conversations where they have talked about the fact that if they need shit done, it's their mothers. Their mothers get the stuff done. And that's exactly why we get thrust into this position. Let's take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to shift from crisis mode to preparation mode so that if you want to start process before the emergency call ever comes in, you have a bit of a step by step plan. Back in a sec. All right. I have to say it. I finally tried the Fits Everybody collection from Skims and it's one of the best decisions I have made all year. I started with the Fits Everybody full brief and now I totally get why everyone's obsessed. The fabric is unbelievably soft. It feels like a second skin and it actually stays in place. No adjusting, no disc comfort, just effortless wear. I've seriously started replacing my entire underwear drawer and the triangle bralette look. I was raised on underwires and I just assumed that discomfort was part of the deal. But this gives support without the pinch, and I don't race to take it off the second I walk through the door. Shop Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims holiday shop is now Open@SKIMS.com is your wireless bill still way too high? If so, it might be time to rethink what you're really paying for and what you're not. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Mint is changing the game with premium wireless starting at just $15 a month. Every plan includes unlimited talk and text and high speed data, all delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even keep your own phone and number, so switching is seamless. Just better service, fewer headaches and a lot more savings. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch now@mintmobile.com hermoney that's mintmobile.com hermoney upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Here at Hermoney we are all about finding simple habits that make a big impact. Our Chief Content Officer, Katherine Tuggle has been loving one in particular lately. Every morning she mixes a scoop of AG1. It's become a staple in her routine right before she dives into emails or heads into back to back meetings. She says it's one of the easiest, most effective ways she's found to support her energy, focus and overall wellness without juggling five different supplements. So what is AG1? Well, it's a daily foundational nutrition drink that blends 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics and real food sourced nutrients in a single scoop. Head to drinkag1.comhermoney to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 when you first subscribe. That's Drink AG1. We are back. We are talking with Beth Pinsker. Her new book is My Mother's Money. We were in crisis mode. Now let's talk about before the crisis hits. Yes, how do you approach the conversation with a parent who doesn't want to have the conversation?
- [24:02]
Beth Pinsker
I have this plan, this step for you. That's one email. Like there's one email that would save you from a year in court and $18,000 to file conservatorship over your parent who has dementia. If you are that daughter we were talking about the one who gets called the person. Who's the person, who's everybody else's person. You need to look at Make a family map is what I call it. But not all the lines are Blood connected lines. Like I have a lot of single women friends who. I'm their person, I'm their emergency contact. And when it comes down to these forms that you need, I'm their person. You want to send an email to everybody who is on that list and find out where they are on this. These like two very key pieces of paperwork if you're sick and then one set of paperwork for if you should happen to die in some circumstances. And so you want to send an email and say, hey, am I the person they're going to call in an emergency? If you go to the hospital or you have some sort of incident that happens, are they going to pick up the phone and call me? And if they do, you have these two things, power of attorney and a health care proxy. And then if you should happen to die and you want me to take care of your wishes and all the cleanup that needs to be done, do you have a will or a trust or some sort of after death document? And if you don't, here is a link. You can download one of these things from the Internet. Here's a resource to find a lawyer. Can you get these done and give me a copy of them? I need a copy of whatever paperwork you have. And you need this durable power of attorney and the healthcare proxy. And the conversation you have with people is that these are not immediate use documents, right? These are for emergencies. You have them in case something should happen. And everybody who's a legal adult over the age of 18 needs these things, whether you think you do or not. And you just have them. You just have them in case something happens. When might you need them? I tried to make a doctor's appointment for my 19 year old the other day and they said no. They said you can't make a doctor's appointment for a 19 year old. You need a healthcare proxy in order to do that. So it's going to be little things like that all the way up to my parent has dementia and I need to step in and make decisions. If you don't do those things, you're going to end up in court. Like Jay Leno filing for a conservatorship for his wife because they did not have the proper power of attorney documents executed before she got too sick to sign them.
- [26:47]
Jean Chatzky
The 19 year old is such a good reminder before kids go off to college, you need that piece of paper because if something happens to your child while they are away, you need to be able to be the one who makes decisions for them. I think parents do not Think about that at all. You have an entire chapter on titling bank accounts. It's something that I think most people do not think about until it's too late. And I think that by the same token, a lot of people are a little wary about the titling of bank accounts, because if you do it wrong, you can run afoul of how things pass from one person to another. And cut off siblings who you never meant to cut off. Right. Cut off children that you never meant to cut off if you put one person's name on this. So tell me, what's the difference between joint ownership, transfer on death, how does it work, and what's the right move?
- [27:45]
Beth Pinsker
There's never any one right move. We used a mix of things. So the power of attorney is a legal document that names. Like you would name me as your power of attorney, and I could do financial transactions for you if you were incapacitated. And that's the key thing. It's with your permission. When you need me to. It's not all the time. You can't just go and take over for me. It's not like carte blanche permission to just be in charge. This is a conditional document, and it comes with what's called fiduciary responsibility. You are held to account. You can be called into court, and you have to show receipts. And so there's some amount of protection involved in power of attorney that doesn't come with joint ownership of the account. So joint ownership is when you just put somebody else's name on that account. So my mom had a savings account. We went in, we put my name on that savings account, and I was able to access that savings account as if I were the account holder. Now, I'm a upright person. I wasn't going to steal money from my mother, but she put me on the account and not my brother. And so you can see already I just said me and my brother. And if you are in a family where that makes you uncomfortable, that's going to be a problem, Right? Like, my brother didn't have any problem with it because he knew I wasn't gonna do anything amiss. But not everybody lives in that universe.
- [29:16]
Jean Chatzky
And if you're on that account and your mother dies, you own it, correct?
- [29:21]
Beth Pinsker
Yes.
- [29:23]
Jean Chatzky
And so does that create an estate mess if you and your brother are supposed to inherit equally?
- [29:29]
Beth Pinsker
Absolutely. Because all of a sudden, that money's in my control, and mom said that we should split it, and I don't have to if I don't want to. So you can See that there's all sorts of bad feelings. The reason I didn't want to be joint on my mother's accounts was primarily because then the money in those accounts count as my assets. I have late teenagers, they're about to go to college, one's in college, I have to fill out financial aid forms starting when my mom got sick, you know, for the next six years and I didn't want to have to claim her money as my asset. I'm also a divorce person. If I had to step back into it with my ex husband, those would count as my assets. If I had creditors, they would count as assets. And so if you're in any of those positions, you don't necessarily want to have co joint ownership of an account where you don't know what's in there on any given day. But here's the problem then is that power of attorney, a lot of people don't realize ceases the minute somebody dies. And then you need a will or a trust for the after death period. And so if you are power of attorney on an account and your parent dies, all of a sudden you're locked out. You can't access that account until you get the death certificate.
- [30:43]
Jean Chatzky
Is transfer on death the workaround?
- [30:46]
Beth Pinsker
Transfer on death is a workaround for getting the funds of the account. So transfer on death means you're basically named as a beneficiary on an account and you have to prove that the person died. So you need a death certificate. And death certificates in real life take 10 days to two weeks to, sometimes longer. And so you can't get that money that's in that account until you get that death certificate. And that's only if you're named a beneficiary. If there's no beneficiary on the account, you need to go to probate. And that means going to court and filing for access to those funds as the rightful heir. But if you are transfer on death, what I've found is that you don't get any of the banking information with that. So if you haven't been paying attention and somebody dies rather suddenly and you haven't taken over their affairs yet, you don't know what they were paying out of that account, you don't have any of the records, you can't look back at anything. You just get a check for the amount of money that was in the account. But if you were a joint owner, you would have inherited the account, you would inherit some of that backend financial paperwork with it. And then you don't lose access to the funds. So if you are in a very tight budget. Right. So like my mom had money in her checking account to cover expenses and pay the caregivers and pay her mortgage and things that were auto deducted from the account. And I had very carefully calculated out what those expenses were as she was nearing her end and she died on the first of the month and the coroner notified Social Security and Medicare and the bank account was shut down like immediately. And we didn't have a beneficiary named on that account and we didn't have a co owner. And so my power of attorney access stopped and that money got locked and we couldn't access it. And so bills needed to be paid and I had to cover them out of my credit card knowing that I would get reimbursed somehow. But this is the thing of caregivers. You end up floating a lot of money to cover situations like this. And if you are on a tight margin and you can't do that, then you know, it's best if you plan ahead a little bit.
- [33:01]
Jean Chatzky
So what is the right move for parents who are thinking, well, should I put my kids on my account? Should I not put my kids on my account? How do I handle it? I had the same experience as you did. My, my mother's accounts were locked and I, I ended up covering some stuff until we got them unlocked with the death certificate.
- [33:21]
Beth Pinsker
Yeah, so a little bit of both wasn't was good enough for us. You need to be like, some people skip this power of attorney part and think that being joint on the account is enough. But you need that power of attorney for so many other things than just bank account access that you need to enact that power of attorney at some point. And so you want to be power of attorney on record with the bank account no matter what, even if you are a joint signer on some other accounts. It worked for us for me to be the joint signer on a savings account that was connected to her checking account and to be power of attorney on her checking account. And that was good enough for us. So we had access to the accounts right before she died. I was able to transfer money out and then I was power of attorney to write checks properly from her account while she was still living. And then after she died, everything else, like the brokerage accounts and retirement accounts and stuff like that, it all passed through beneficiaries that she had set up ahead of time. And all I needed to do was show a death certificate and that was all fine.
- [34:30]
Jean Chatzky
Your book is filled with do now checklists. I like them. They break this huge topic into very bite sized steps. And so look, there is, there's more information in this book than we could ever cover in three podcasts. But if you were sending the folks who were listening out with a three step checklist, three things to do, let's say they're not in this situation of having to manage someone else's money yet. What do you tell them?
- [35:01]
Beth Pinsker
I tell them to make sure that anybody you're responsible for and yourself has the power of attorney in the healthcare proxies for when somebody's sick. Make sure you have some kind of after death document like a will or a trust and make sure you, you know how to access everybody's phones because you need those phones these days. Not just, they're not just sentimental items for the pictures. You can't pretend you're somebody else anymore with their password. So like, oh, I'm going to log into mom's bank account with her password and I'll just pretend I'm her. You can't do that anymore. And you need that phone for two factor authentication. And it's basically, you know, with a modern person it's a road map to their life. You will see all the accounts that they have and everything that they're doing through their phone.
- [35:50]
Jean Chatzky
It's 100% true. You also need to be able to get into their email. Right? Because sometimes the two factor authentication and I kept my mom's phone going for months and I can still sign into her email. Sometimes the information shows up in the email and you need to be able to go back and connect the dots. And if you can convince your older parent to either use a password manager or to make a book like my mother did, it's just a godsend. Beth, thank you for all of this. You're going to come back and you're going to do a mailbag with us, answer some of our listeners questions. So thank you in advance for that as well. The book is called My Mother's Money. Good luck with it. Thank you so much.
- [36:30]
Beth Pinsker
Thank you. Thanks.
- [36:33]
Jean Chatzky
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