← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
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- [00:00]
Shopify/Advertisement Voice
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- [01:14]
Jean Chatzky
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- [01:39]
Ken Stern
Increasingly in Japan, people associate work with better health. It's actually a concept called ikigai. And what encourages and gets people to work longer is a cultural change that the idea that 60 or 65 doesn't really make sense to retire and sort of decline afterwards in the era of much longer life. That what people need as they age are ways to continue to have purpose and meaning.
- [02:09]
Jean Chatzky
Hey everyone. Welcome to Her Money. I'm Jean Chatky. The end of one year and the start of another is just a great time to reflect not only on how we've done when it comes to our financial goals the past year, paying down debts, saving, investing, but also on our health goals. Because the truth is, the two are deeply connected, inextricably linked. Living longer means planning smarter for both your money and your body. Because if we want to live vibrant, healthy lives for decades to come, and we do, we may need fewer gym memberships and more dinner parties. Community, it turns out, might just be the best investment that you can make for your health and your wallet. There's a stat that I just can't stop thinking about. A person living in Tokyo or in Singapore can expect to spend about 10 more years in good health than someone in Chicago or Seattle. 10 a whole decade. And that's not just due to Better health care or a cleaner diet. Diet, its connection, its community, its purpose. And as we'll explore today, it's also systems that make healthy living affordable and sustainable. Well into retirement. To help us unpack it all, I am thrilled to welcome Ken Stern to the show today. Ken is a longevity expert. He's author of the new book Healthy to 100 How Strong Social Ties Lead to Long Lives. And he's the host of the Century Lives podcast from the Stanford center on Longevity. Ken has traveled the globe from Japan to Barcelona to Singapore to discover what the world's longest living societies have in common. It's not all green tea, tai chi and midday siestas. Ken, welcome.
- [04:13]
Ken Stern
Hi, Jean. Thanks for having me on the show.
- [04:15]
Jean Chatzky
Thank you so much for being here. I gotta say, I love this book. I am always up for a good how to Live Longer headline, but this one goes, it goes a lot deeper than most. You make the case that the biggest breakthrough that we've had in longevity might not be in a lab, it might be in our neighborhoods. So let's start there. What made you wanna take on this question of social connection as a health issue?
- [04:44]
Ken Stern
So I'll tell you sort of the origin stories, Gene, and it actually relates to the podcast you mentioned, Century Lives. There's actually a very specific place that I started thinking about social connection. So like many people are listening to this podcast, I had sort of the traditional views of healthy longevity, health care, exercise, diet. But we did one season of the podcast where we wanted to look at communities in the US that were doing probably better health wise than the underlying numbers say they should. There's a researcher at Harvard named Raj Chetty who has tracked county level life expectancy against county level income. And it's almost like a mathematical formula. It's actually a little depressing. The richer the county is, the better the life expectancy and vice versa. And if you look at a plot that Chetty has done, all the counties, like, cling to the line like they're magnets. But we wanted to look at the places that fell off the line that were doing better than they should. So we spent time with about six places. They were actually hard to find. And the first one we went to is a little place called Presidio County, Texas, which was a poor, largely Hispanic county right on the border with Chihuahua and Mexico. And we went there and I didn't really know what the story was going to be. When we went there, we didn't know about health care. And it wasn't, they're in the nearest hospital 70 miles away. It certainly wasn't about fitness the local principals considered weird because he rides a bicycle around town. And the story found there was really about social connection, how people there lived in multi generational housing or in close communal quarters and really took care of each other. And everywhere we went for the season, the story was the same. It wasn't just in Presidio County. It could have been in. It was places in New York City like Co Op City, which is about as far from Presidio county as you can get there. It was about people staying in community for a long time and building social relationships. So and everywhere we went that was a story and led me on sort of research into research on the vast amount of evidence that shows strong social connections, purpose, meaning in the second half of life has an enormous effect, some researchers say, equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day or not smoking 15 cigarettes a day if you are not lonely and have social connection.
- [06:54]
Jean Chatzky
There's been a lot of talk lately about this loneliness epidemic. The 15 cigarettes were cited by the former surgeon general in the last administration. We've seen seen headlines of a friendship recession. And a survey called the American Perspectives Survey said that the number of adults who say that they have no close friends, which, God, I have to say, that's just heartbreaking. That has quadrupled since 1990. On the flip side, those who say they have 10 or more close friends, that's dropped by nearly threefold. Is this uniquely American? Is it because we don't live in communal environments like many other countries? Do we just work too much? What's going on?
- [07:45]
Ken Stern
Yeah, so it's a great question, Gene. So you started off this introduction with that critical fact that we live almost a decade less in good health than other healthy countries. It wasn't always that way. If you go Back to like 1980, among the advanced economies, we weren't the longest lived one, but we weren't the shortest lived one as we are now by a good number of years. We were always in the middle of the pack. And then what happened was the story that Bob Putnam, also from Harvard, chronicled in Bowling alone. All the activities that brought us together, churches, unions, sewing circles, pta, all began sort of secular decline. We spent less time together and it was all replaced by technology. First television and now phones. And that's really the sort of the story of the loneliness crisis in the US you won't be surprised to hear, Gene, that phones and televisions exist in other countries and people there spend lots of times on their phone. If you Go to the subway in Seoul or Singapore, people are exactly like they are in New York. They're face down in their phones. But what they've done, which we really haven't done, is they've created new institutions of social connection to bring people together. If you actually ask people in those places about their public health goals, it's often not about health care. It's often about how do you create, especially for people in the second half of life, social connection, purpose. And they invest in it on a societal level in the ways that we don't. So the longest crisis here is, I think about sort of like the weather. Everyone talks about it, but no one does something about it. Other places, they're doing something about it.
- [09:17]
Jean Chatzky
When you talk about the places that they've invested in, are they. I mean, we talk a little bit about third spaces in these countries. Are they the places that are not work, that are not home, people can gather there for free. We don't have a ton of those places.
- [09:35]
Ken Stern
Yeah. So it actually takes a lot of reinvention to create third spaces. So like in Barcelona in Spain. Spain's an interesting country because there's no reason why it's actually one of the longest lived countries in the world. It's not particularly wealthy, it's not particularly low in smoking behavior, it's not particularly low in obesity levels. They do remarkably well. And one of the reasons is because they create these certs by. So Barcelona, they've actually redesigned the city to get people out of cars and onto foot. So it's really hard to make social connections when you're whizzing by each other in cars, probably giving each other the finger. Much easier if you're on eye level with each other. And there are places to sit and talk and commune. But it goes beyond sort of third spaces. It goes to changing cultural norms. And like in Korea, it goes to the notion that learning and face to face learning is not something you do in the first 20 years of life. It's something you do all across your life course. And they've created learning opportunities, learning institutes, schools for older people to bring them throughout the life course. Face to face around learning. In Japan, it's often about changing norms around work and creating working opportunities that work for older people. So it's a lot of different things to really create opportunities for people in the second half of life to stay socially connected even after traditional retirement ages or as they approach retirement age.
- [10:54]
Jean Chatzky
We're going to take a very quick break feeling stuck with a bloated wireless bill Then it's time to look at Mint Mobile. And right now it is their best deal of the year. For a limited time, you can get three, six, or even 12 months of Mint's unlimited premium wireless for just $15 a month. That's 1550% off. And it's a really smart move if you're looking to cut back before the holidays. No contracts, no nonsense, just high speed data, unlimited talk and text, all on the nation's largest 5G network. Shop Mint Unlimited plans@mintmobile.com hermoney that's mintmobile.com hermoney Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required equivalent to $15 a month taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only over 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required availability, speed and coverage varies see mintmobile.com the holidays are pretty wonderful, but they can also bring financial chaos. Between travel, gifts, hosting and everything in between, it's way too easy to overspend without even realizing it. That's why my producer Hayley has been loving Monarch. She's using it to track every gift, every dinner out, every flight. And seeing it all laid out in real time helped her pump the breaks before the credit card bill hit. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch, rated Wall Street Journal's Best Budgeting App of 2025. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone. And right now, just for our listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year. Don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks. Use code hermoney@monarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year. @monarch.com with code HERMONEY I am back with Ken Stern. He's the author of the new book healthy to 100. What you said about getting people out of their cars is a little striking to me. So during COVID 19, my husband and I left our home in suburban New York and moved to Center City Philadelphia. As a result, we're walking so much more than we ever walked. I mean, I couldn't. I really couldn't get anywhere walking from my house in suburban New York, except perhaps to a friend's house. But I couldn't walk and actually get to a restaurant or walk and get to the grocery store. Here I can walk everywhere to do you find cities are healthier for aging because of that, because they're innately walkable?
- [14:01]
Ken Stern
Sure, of course. So you have, in the US you have, you have different challenges in different places. Right. But if you look at suburban or exurban and especially rural areas, you find sort of levels of movement to be much less because there's really no many of those places, no place to walk, there's no sidewalks. It goes to urban design. We talk sometime about the loneliness of city. A lot of people you see, but you don't know. In suburbia and rural areas, loneliness tends to be higher because you're just not out eye to eye with people in ways that matter and keep you connected and moving. People ask me a lot why social connection actually helps your health. And there's a biological reason for it, almost a biological imperative. There's also correlative value, which is if you're socially connected, you're not staying at home, you're not by yourself, you're. You get out, you move, you get social feedback about your health, directly or indirectly. So there are a lot of things that happen when you're social connected that helps your health.
- [14:56]
Jean Chatzky
So much of our health span is also shaped by our budgets. And I think that there are budgetary factors to these things. Right. I think about what I've done so far today to connect with people. At 7 o' clock this morning I got up, I went to the gym. And my gym actually, when I moved to Philly, was a place that I joined purposefully because I didn't feel like I had enough people in my day. I would go days and maybe see my husband and my mother and nobody else. And that was kind of not okay. So I joined this gym and now I have gym friends and I see them and it's a nice way to start the morning, but it's not cheap. Right. And I wonder what. Where do you find in your research budgetary factors fitting into life expectancy?
- [15:54]
Ken Stern
Yeah, so it's a great question. It's a depressing question. So you mentioned the decline in the number of friends that Americans have. And that is true across income levels, but is much, much more true if you have. Usually it's reported in terms of education, but education and wealth are highly correlated. So if you have less than a college education or high school only education, I think it's something like you're about four times more likely to report having no friends than if you have a college education. And that's a really sobering thing that has a lot to do with resources. It has a lot to do with the fact that going to school creates a community. But social connection often takes resources. And you see that in the rising loneliness epidemic for all of us, but especially for people of lesser means.
- [16:45]
Jean Chatzky
How do you suggest that people who are maybe financially stressed or even just a little bit budget constrained, they're trying to pay for college, they're trying to save for retirement, make space in their budgets for connection.
- [17:00]
Ken Stern
I would start off by saying you need to make mental space for connection, because I think in the triage of American life, when we think about health, we still think about health care first and fitness and diet. Those are all good things to think about. But we need to make equal room for social connection. And until we do that, it probably won't matter as much what your budget is. But once you do, the challenge of social connection is really about putting yourself in places where you're going to meet and spend time to meet people of like minded. So the research shows, I think from the University of Kansas, that takes about 50 hours to be make a friend, to be next to someone to make a friend, 200 hours to make a close friend. So social connection is mostly about proximity. And proximity doesn't necessarily have to have a budget, the gym does. But a lot of educational places are free, especially as you age. Work is a place that a lot of people make friends. Volunteering, which is obviously free if you have time for it. That's obviously a place where you spend time with people of like mindedness and is a great source of social connection. So there are all sorts of opportunities. Even recognizing that resources matter, there's still plenty of opportunities to be proximate to people who might become your friends and might become social relations of consequence, if you want.
- [18:21]
Jean Chatzky
Just in the overall scheme of things, what did you find was the impact of financial stress on life expectancy?
- [18:30]
Ken Stern
Stress generally is a killer and financial stress is one of the biggest stresses that you see. I actually not to go back to the podcast again, but we did a season on why women live longer than men but spend more time in poor health. One of the reasons that they do is because of greater financial stress, they live longer. So they have to save more, they make less, they're often financially responsible for other members of the family. And that all accumulates in ways that is pretty harmful to people's health. Healthy aging, not necessarily to longer life, but to healthy aging, which is really the goal we should be driving towards.
- [19:07]
Jean Chatzky
It's a big area of concern for the listeners of this show. I mean, we are a community of women where we are watching frustratingly as the gender wage gap expands for the second year in a row, knowing that we're going to get to the point of our retirements with less money in our accounts, fewer Social Security credits than men, we're going to be the ones to take care of our spouses. In many cases, they're going to die sadly, and then we're going to be left with years on our own and some pretty high long term care bills in a lot of cases. What have you learned from your travels and from your podcasts about women who managed to get through this successfully and how, I mean, are we all looking at a golden girl's life?
- [20:01]
Ken Stern
It's interesting to talk about sort of financial stress and financial challenges. I have a partnership with a company called Corbridge Financial. We do an annual poll and one of the key questions is around do you want to live to 100? And what are the risks of living to 100? And number one in the reasons people are worried about living longer is financial risk and running out of money. And the fear of running out of money is as high as, as dying. So the question you put is a, is a really important one. And it's a, it's one you see all over, especially as people are living longer. The, I mean, the median life expectancy for women in Japan now is 90. So you have 50% chance of living to over 90. It's an incredible thing. And more and more people are living to 100 every year. So it's, it's a real scenario that we're talking about people retiring at 60 or 65 and then having to fund a retirement that runs decades. What I learned in other places, places that are longer lived and hit the aging tunnel for us are people are accepting that sort of the life course is changing and they're working longer. Women are working longer and they'll remain part of the workforce for longer, partially because of the economic imperative, but partially because even significantly, because they associate work and the social connection of it with healthy longevity. So other places have, let's face it, a stronger social safety net than the US Also stronger family relationships that keep them together. But the one thing I would say on the positive side about women who do face more financial stresses than men, no question, is that they remain socially connected and have a stronger network of friends. I went to, I can't tell you how many sort of senior centers I've been to in other countries or senior groups. And it's almost invariably women in the majority and sometimes exclusively women, because they are much more outgoing, much more socially connected, and often leave the men sitting at home alone on their Barca lounges, if people have Barca lounges anymore. And that's one of the reasons, I think, that women do live longer, because they, I think, seem to understand the important role that social connection plays in health.
- [22:03]
Jean Chatzky
It's funny that you and Corbridge asked that question, because I've thought about that question and my answer to living to 100 has always been no, thank you. And I think it's lived experience. Right. I haven't seen the women in my family live that long and be good at the end of life. Right. And so that, to me, has not looked attractive. I was telling you that I was at the Roar Conference in New York recently. This is a conference hosted by Michael Clinton, who wrote the book Roar, which is about aging well and redefining yourself. And Gayle King and Christie Brinkley did an interview on Center Stage, and Gail mentioned that 91 is the age that people pick. Like that's the one where they want. Yeah. That for some reason, 91 is the statistical age at which people want to check out. Which sounds to me better than Zeke Emanuel, 75, which, if anybody hasn't read his piece in the New York times about how 75 is about when he wants to check out. I think he's getting so close to 75 that he's going to need to rethink that. Anyway, we're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to dive into how countries like Japan and South Korea are rethinking retirement, what that could mean for you, especially if you're nearing that next big life phase. This time of year can feel like a wellness roller coaster, right? Travel, family events, late nights. Your home routine gets thrown off. That's why I've been looking for little ways to stay grounded. And one of the best tips I've gotten lately is AG1. It's the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotic, superfoods and antioxidants all in one scoop. It's quick, it's clean. It actually helps you stay consistent with your health even when life gets hectic. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.comhermoney you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement, agz, for free, which has been a game changer for a lot of nightly routines. That's drinkag1.com hermoney for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. Ford BlueCruise hands free highway driving takes.
- [24:37]
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- [24:39]
Jean Chatzky
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- [24:46]
Jean Chatzky
Enjoy the drive in blue cruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details. I am back with Ken Stern. He's the author of the new book healthy to 100. So many of our listeners are looking toward retirement, looking toward the early years of it. And I think a lot of us are sort of starting to realize, as you were saying in our last block, that the traditional path to just stop working and basically do nothing does not feel good anymore. You open the book with a story about a town in Japan where a company mainly employs women over 60. So what kind of work were they doing? What did you find when you got there? What did you learn from the women there? And how would you apply those lessons.
- [25:44]
Ken Stern
In the US So that's a company. It's an unusual company. Let's stipulate that from the beginning. And and they only hire or they principally hire women of 60, I think 60 to 75 they're called grandmother juniors, and over 75 they're called grandmothers. I think the most interesting thing about it was they had no trouble recruiting the grandmothers to be employees of this is it's a food service company specialized in traditional foods. They had no trouble recruiting older women to work in the company because increasingly in Japan, people associate work with better health. It's actually a concept called ikigai. And countries that have tried to encourage later retirement age by moving the age of pensions have almost invariably failed. We've done the US the retirement age remains roughly the same as it was 70 years ago. The effective retirement age, what it encourages and gets people to work longer is a cultural change that the idea that 60 or 65, it doesn't really make sense to retire and sort of decline afterwards in the era of much longer life, that what people need as they age are ways to continue to have purpose and meaning. And often in places like Japan is through work. So wherever I went in Japan, when I interviewed people about work, older people about work, almost invariably they reported they were doing it because they didn't want to be stuck lonely in the house. They wanted to be in Community. They wanted to have a reason to get out of bed. They wanted to find ways to be together with people. And when I asked them when they wanted to retire, they would almost invariably say, I want to stop working when I can, no longer work when I can't. It was sort of the anthem of the conversation because people associated that type of work with being healthy and being an important contributor to society. I think the coda to that Gene is Japan is actually famous for its notoriously competitive work environment. It's not the case for older workers. They've actually reinvented work so that there's a lot more part time work, there's a lot more job sharing, there's much more higher use of assistive technology to help people stay in the workplace. They're really focused on creating an economy for the, for older workers in ways that we're not. And the lesson I came away from that is both the importance of cultural change and how people perceive when we're supposed to retire. But also the fact that companies need to start really rethinking how they work with workers, especially older workers, to make it fit their lives, not the other way around.
- [28:14]
Jean Chatzky
How would you borrow from that playbook and bring it to companies in the United States? I mean, we're a country where consulting firms still force their partners to retire at 60. At 60, which is, I mean, I'm over 60 and I, I feel like retirement is an if ever for me. I just want to maybe at some point do a little less of what I'm doing because I like it.
- [28:42]
Ken Stern
Yeah. So let's actually start with the fact it's actually been illegal to force retirement on age since the 1960s. But people don't know that and still remains generally accepted that it is okay to try to force out older workers if for no other reason than make way for younger workers. That's sort of a accepted notion in the US Even though it's been illegal for half a century to do that. So there's a practical element to this in places like Japan and Korea. Much more longer lived societies than us, much lower birth rates than us. And they have a shrinking labor force in the traditional labor force of 18 to 64. So they need older workers. So it starts with an industrial need. It's not because I think they have a least at the beginning, a higher view of the value of older workers. They just need them in ways that we don't. We're going to get there. We're living longer. We have a declining birth rate. Frankly, the rules around Immigration are changing and immigrants were the big source of younger labor in this country. So we're going to need older workers in the same way that other countries have shown that they do. We just haven't realized yet. But it's going to come. And when it comes, they'll be lucky because they have a model from other countries about how they can work with older workers. We need a bit of a cultural change in terms of thinking about the role of work. We're still stuck in the idea that 65 is some. There's a moral imperative around that. Even though it was invented in the 19th century for very political reasons, we still tend to think that, hey, I'm supposed to retire at 65. That I think to your point, Jean is going to change. We see role models like Jane Goodall, who famously worked till the end of her life at 91. And my personal favorite right now is Mel Brooks, who just announced Spaceballs 2 that he's going to direct and act in at age 99 and deliver at age 101. Warren Buffett just this week announced that he was starting to step back at 95.
- [30:31]
Jean Chatzky
Dick Van Dyke has a book coming out about living to 100.
- [30:34]
Ken Stern
So there are lots of, lots of stories of public figures, but also increasingly the fastest growing part of the labor force is people over the age of 75. So you're going to see people in your lives work longer and that's going to change the, I think will ultimately change the cultural consensus around work and when we're supposed to, when we are supposed to retire.
- [30:54]
Jean Chatzky
Earlier in our conversation you mentioned volunteerism as one of the nice ways and effective ways to stay active, purposeful, useful. In your book you detail some of the things that South Korea is doing to actively encourage volunteerism. Can you talk a little bit about that and which of their approaches you think might work here?
- [31:17]
Ken Stern
So we already have actually a pretty strong volunteer culture in the US But I'd say mostly we have do it yourself volunteer culture. Like a 1.2 million charitable organizations in the country, something for everyone, but actually a little hard to find and navigate is the challenge. What other countries are doing are taking a proactive role in helping people, people especially older people, find the ways to volunteer. So countries like South Korea you mentioned, but also Italy, Germany, Singapore are they are open up offices specifically targeted to help older volunteers find the right role for them. So it's about, in those places about really facilitating opportunity for people as they approach retirement, as they enter into retirement. And in those places you actually see lots of Charities in which the young old are helping the old. I've been to groups in Italy where at age 62, I was the youngest person in the room by a fair amount. But it was very hard to tell who the volunteers were from the people being helped because they were roughly the same age and everyone actually seemed to be enjoying themselves on equal footing. So there's a lot to recommend when you get people past 65 helping those of similar generations going forward.
- [32:35]
Jean Chatzky
We're publishing this episode right around the new year, when people are setting their goals for the year ahead. So as we wrap this up, Ken, if there were three pieces of advice that you would give this community for living happily and healthfully to 100, what would they be?
- [32:56]
Ken Stern
So I would start with the importance of planning. There's actually a sense here that retirement just happens to us. We're supposed to financially plan. We talk about that a lot. But we have far less invested in sort of thinking about the next 20 or 25 years and taking it with the same seriousness of purpose that we do with the previous 25 years. I tell the story in the book of going to a wedding and sitting with the old folks, and everyone else was talking about the next 20 years with such great excitement and purpose. Homes, jobs, family, travel. Our table was talking about reading during the day and learning a few recipes. We've been taught that the future past 65 is an era of decline, not a time when we can really make a difference in our own lives and those of the people around us. So I would say planning and taking serious and purpose. The second is I would elevate the role of social connection in your hierarchy of health and treat it with equally or maybe even more importantly than other things that will lead to healthy longevity. And think about I think finally a question I often get is like, hey, I'm an introvert. It's hard for me to be socially connected. Social connection really is much more about. It's not about being the life of the party or buying rounds at a bar. It's putting yourself in places where you can be next to people who share values and share ideas and share commitments. And that could be work. It could be volunteering. It could be lifelong learning, could be in intergenerational communities and neighborhoods. Think about what brings value to you and put yourself in those places. And social connections will come as hopefully as a happy result of that.
- [34:32]
Jean Chatzky
Ken Stern, the book is healthy to 100. Thank you so much for doing this with us today.
- [34:37]
Ken Stern
Jean, thanks for having me. Loved the conversation.
- [34:40]
Jean Chatzky
Me too. If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. If listening to this episode has you thinking, all right, I am ready to get serious about growing my money, but I still don't feel a hundred percent confident about investing. I want to personally invite you to check out our Investing Fix program. It's a live weekly investing club designed for women by women, where we break down what's happening in the markets, explain how different investment works, and give you all the tools that you need to build your own confident long term strategy. And now is a great time to start while the markets are still showing strength and interest rates are shifting. So if you want to make 202026 the year you finally feel in control of your investments, go to investingfix.com that's Fix with 2 x's and use code ANNUAL25 to get 25 off your yearly membership. I'd love to see you there. Her money is produced by Haley Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.
- [35:59]
Ken Stern
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Ken Stern
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Ken Stern
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